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The Movie Her · To All the Men I've Tolerated Before

0:22
Speaker 1: Any tolerators. This is to all the men I've tolerated before.
0:25
Speaker 1: With Namley Katona, your weekly look at everyday misogyny. This
0:29
Speaker 1: week is an important week. I have two very important
0:32
Speaker 1: guests who are important to me personally and probably one
0:36
Speaker 1: day professionally, should anyone pay me to do anything. Will
0:42
Speaker 1: probably get thanked in my Emmy speech. We'll probably cry
0:46
Speaker 1: about them at some point. But I have Amy Lum,
0:51
Speaker 1: a seasoned story architect and creative producer with over a
0:55
Speaker 1: decade of script editing and consulting experience, walks in luck
1:00
Speaker 1: step with stage and screenwriters throughout their creative process. As
1:04
Speaker 1: the founder of Breakout SESSH, she works with writers globally,
1:09
Speaker 1: helping clients develop projects for industry giants like fx fx is,
1:14
Speaker 1: Truly and Hulu, Netflix and more so Truly what I'm
1:18
Speaker 1: watching every day. Amy's rolle blend script editing, story production,
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Speaker 1: and creative midwifery, using analytical precision with creative intuition to
1:29
Speaker 1: safeguard writers original visions. She is Chinese American with a
1:33
Speaker 1: heart of a fortune cookie. This is adorable, not overly sweet,
1:37
Speaker 1: but always ready with the wise takeaway. That is what
1:40
Speaker 1: told me that I'm reading the full bios because I'm
1:43
Speaker 1: so proud of you and you're great writers. So I'm
1:46
Speaker 1: like everyone, this is how you write a bio. Should
1:49
Speaker 1: you be guesting on my show and I ask for
1:52
Speaker 1: a bio, this is how we do it, And then
1:54
Speaker 1: we have Conna Felix is a New York based Filipino
1:58
Speaker 1: American comedy writer, director, and story workshop facilitator. She's a
2:02
Speaker 1: graduate of NYU and the Second City Film School and
2:06
Speaker 1: was mentored through the Unlock Her Potential Program and Start
2:09
Speaker 1: with a Hollywood. Conna has six plus years of script
2:13
Speaker 1: reading in story analysis experience for screenwriting competitions, production and
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Speaker 1: literary management companies such as The Academy, Nicole, Viacom, CBS
2:24
Speaker 1: Writers Mentoring Fellowship, Now, Paramount Plus, Final Draft, Big Break,
2:29
Speaker 1: Sugar twenty three and more. She is the founder of
2:33
Speaker 1: Conna Felix Reads, where she works with writers one on
2:35
Speaker 1: one and through workshops to help them deepen their understanding
2:39
Speaker 1: of the story only they can tell. And because of
2:42
Speaker 1: Conna Felix Reads and Script Club, we read the screenplay
2:47
Speaker 1: for the twenty thirteen film Her and now we got
2:50
Speaker 1: to continue our discussion on whether or not this film
2:53
Speaker 1: was an omen of technology and insulls to come welcome friends.
3:02
Speaker 2: Amazing.
3:05
Speaker 1: I'm sorry when I like you, I'm like, it's gonna
3:09
Speaker 1: be really chill, it's gonna be really tame. And then
3:10
Speaker 1: I'm like, this movie created in cells.
3:15
Speaker 2: I think it might have predicted.
3:18
Speaker 3: I will say it's set in Los Angeles twenty twenty six,
3:22
Speaker 3: but came out twenty thirteen, and I think, to me, what,
3:27
Speaker 3: I just rewatched it yet last night on the big
3:29
Speaker 3: screen that came back, and then I obviously read the
3:32
Speaker 3: script now, and yeah, it.
3:34
Speaker 2: Was kind of wild to see some of his predictions
3:37
Speaker 2: on clothing, even like it was like very hipster fashion,
3:41
Speaker 2: kind of like buttoned downs in like you know, those
3:43
Speaker 2: slutty man spectacles like dash is. But it's just.
3:47
Speaker 3: Wild that that is, like that fashion happened. And I
3:50
Speaker 3: read something where he said, Spike Jones, the writer director,
3:56
Speaker 3: that choice was because he was like predicting, like, oh,
3:59
Speaker 3: fashion and style comes in cycles, so like this Theodore
4:03
Speaker 3: is named after, like you know, nineteen twenty stuff, and
4:05
Speaker 3: like it just kind of freaked me out, like even
4:09
Speaker 3: hearing that, like you really, I really think this thing
4:11
Speaker 3: predicted a lot of.
4:12
Speaker 2: Futures, the things we're going through.
4:14
Speaker 1: Now Yeah, Amy initial thoughts.
4:21
Speaker 4: You know, I chose this for a script club because
4:25
Speaker 4: I love this film and it was also a script
4:30
Speaker 4: that I am quite fond of when it comes to craft.
4:34
Speaker 4: So I used it myself as a good example of
4:38
Speaker 4: how you can have style your own style of writing
4:44
Speaker 4: in a screenplay, which is quite difficult to do because
4:47
Speaker 4: you've got to keep a lot of your pros out
4:49
Speaker 4: of it. I think what's fascinating is.
4:56
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say it's I don't want to say it's
4:59
Speaker 2: a prediction, but.
5:01
Speaker 4: Where we are technologically, I wish that we actually the
5:07
Speaker 4: I wish that what he had written about transit had
5:14
Speaker 4: come true, yeah, or clothing or anything else. Very yeah,
5:19
Speaker 4: could we have that ability transit? That would be freaking amazing.
5:25
Speaker 4: What would that do to the landscape of la honestly
5:28
Speaker 4: if we had that that kind of transit. But the
5:30
Speaker 4: technology that the AI and the operating systems and the
5:35
Speaker 4: operating systems being sentient, like, that's really interesting to me
5:40
Speaker 4: is I've I've been going back and watching another show
5:43
Speaker 4: that came out around the same time that also talks
5:46
Speaker 4: about AI, which is called Person of Interest. I'm a
5:48
Speaker 4: Mega Mazan and just looking at the reality that we're
5:53
Speaker 4: living in now and how how AI is so embedded
5:58
Speaker 4: into nearly everything that we touch and do, whether we
6:01
Speaker 4: want that or not, Like you'd have to be off
6:03
Speaker 4: grid to get away from it. So it's yeah, I
6:06
Speaker 4: think thoughts out the gate on this film. That and
6:12
Speaker 4: the incredible loneliness that everyone felt in this film, I
6:18
Speaker 4: think is something that's very palpable right now and has
6:22
Speaker 4: been particularly since twenty twenty. Probably was happening before twenty twenty,
6:26
Speaker 4: but everyone was a little too like distracto to really
6:30
Speaker 4: come to terms with it, And I think since twenty twenty,
6:32
Speaker 4: we've really had to look at our relationship to connection
6:37
Speaker 4: and our relationship to technology and where we're at with
6:41
Speaker 4: that now six years later.
6:43
Speaker 1: So Script Club was the first time that I actually
6:46
Speaker 1: like took in the story since the trailer and the
6:49
Speaker 1: conception of the movie, like the I think I told
6:52
Speaker 1: someone at script Club I didn't see this movie because
6:55
Speaker 1: I was a brady teenager who just went you. It
6:58
Speaker 1: turns out I was a brady, me five year old
7:01
Speaker 1: who was like I did the math today. I was like,
7:09
Speaker 1: you are so bad at math? What do you mean?
7:10
Speaker 1: I was thirteen thirteen but I watched it in two
7:20
Speaker 1: parts over Wednesday and Thursday, and it is a gorgeous movie.
7:27
Speaker 1: And and I even I think I have a very
7:33
Speaker 1: different approach to watching movies, Like my sister and her
7:37
Speaker 1: friend were very uncomfortable about the ending of the movie.
7:42
Speaker 1: Oh hi, and I watched it and I was like, well,
7:46
Speaker 1: actually it's kind of tamer than I would have pulled
7:48
Speaker 1: off probably. And also I like when movies make give
7:53
Speaker 1: me the cringe because that's also a feeling that they
7:56
Speaker 1: were trying to listit out of me, and I can
8:00
Speaker 1: just looking in my head. I was like, we did
8:02
Speaker 1: this for Valentine's Day because this is supposed to be
8:05
Speaker 1: a romantic movie, and to me, it's like a horror
8:09
Speaker 1: loneliness story that gave me the ache the entire time. Yeah,
8:18
Speaker 1: so I loved watching it. Did I have as much
8:20
Speaker 1: fun with as I do when I watch Greece too? No?
8:24
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
8:25
Speaker 4: So you are one of those people like a grease
8:28
Speaker 4: too person.
8:29
Speaker 1: I love Greece too. It's better than okay, that's fair.
8:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I just want to say because I want Yeah,
8:36
Speaker 3: I so we talked before we recorded, so I'm not
8:38
Speaker 3: sure if I'm repeating myself. So pardon me, but I
8:42
Speaker 3: rewatched it at a regal theater because they were doing
8:44
Speaker 3: Valentine's Month with the movies, and yeah, the it was
8:49
Speaker 3: so palpable, the discomfort throughout the film and then sometimes
8:54
Speaker 3: laughed and then sometimes just like poignant silence, and a
8:59
Speaker 3: friend king with you had never seen it, and we
9:01
Speaker 3: were just both like Spike Jones sustained that discomfort the
9:06
Speaker 3: whole time and did not let you go. And I
9:08
Speaker 3: also think what I find special about the way he
9:12
Speaker 3: approaches the story. I can feel zero judgment for Theodore
9:16
Speaker 3: and his choices, which I will say is a very
9:20
Speaker 3: hard skill, but a needed skill for writers to write
9:23
Speaker 3: a character. Yeah, I don't think you necessarily have to
9:27
Speaker 3: be in love with your character, but I do think
9:28
Speaker 3: you have to have a non judgmental space for them
9:31
Speaker 3: so that you could just tell their story and their
9:33
Speaker 3: full humanity, which to me that I think that's what
9:36
Speaker 3: I take away from this movie, like a character study
9:39
Speaker 3: of someone's and this happens to be a lonely man's
9:42
Speaker 3: full humanity after yeah, multiple like heartaches from work, from
9:48
Speaker 3: a relationship that where he really loved his ex wife,
9:52
Speaker 3: but they struggled obviously, and then another breakup with a
9:56
Speaker 3: sentient AI. Yeah, yeah, and so yeah, I appreciate it.
10:01
Speaker 3: I really appreciate discomfort and not letting it go because
10:05
Speaker 3: I think that's a rare thing right now. Actually, I
10:07
Speaker 3: think people want to feel comfortable all the time right now.
10:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree.
10:11
Speaker 4: There's this show called Marriage with Nikola Walker.
10:15
Speaker 2: Has anyone seen it?
10:16
Speaker 1: I have not know by no, right down on a
10:19
Speaker 1: list somewhere.
10:20
Speaker 2: It is.
10:23
Speaker 4: One of the most uncomfortable watches. And I was riveted.
10:28
Speaker 4: I was like, I can't even I can't. I'm so
10:30
Speaker 4: uncomfortable and I can't look away because it's so accurate
10:36
Speaker 4: and the way that it's there's nothing poetic about the
10:39
Speaker 4: way that I just written, and it is so based
10:42
Speaker 4: in reality and based in the way that we interact
10:44
Speaker 4: with each other. And I do agree with you, Kana
10:48
Speaker 4: about like feeling uncomfortable.
10:50
Speaker 2: I think we are.
10:52
Speaker 4: I think there's a place right We've talked about palatable
10:55
Speaker 4: croissants before, which is like there's.
10:56
Speaker 2: A place for.
10:59
Speaker 4: Enters payment that makes you feel comfy and cozy, and
11:02
Speaker 4: we need that because the.
11:03
Speaker 2: World was the costco of croissants. That's the first is
11:08
Speaker 2: off actual Parisian French and you have something like this
11:14
Speaker 2: film and it's so funny.
11:15
Speaker 4: Natalie, you say that you know this was chosen because
11:17
Speaker 4: it was Valentine's Days. I chose her and Conna said,
11:21
Speaker 4: let's do it for Valentine's I think that's.
11:24
Speaker 2: The most romantic movie.
11:26
Speaker 1: And I was like, I.
11:27
Speaker 4: Think this is a film about loneliness though, and we
11:30
Speaker 4: were like, let's disagree in script club.
11:33
Speaker 2: So I think there is love here as well. Yeah,
11:35
Speaker 2: that's my thing. Yeah, for sure.
11:37
Speaker 4: I think the draw to this film for me, though,
11:40
Speaker 4: was the loneliness was there was not any It wasn't
11:43
Speaker 4: about love at all for me.
11:45
Speaker 2: I mean, there is love in the film.
11:46
Speaker 4: For sure, but I think the draft for me was
11:48
Speaker 4: about loneliness and about.
11:52
Speaker 2: When you feel.
11:54
Speaker 4: A particular type of disconnection from people, where you struggle
11:59
Speaker 4: to connect with people for whatever reason that is, whether
12:01
Speaker 4: that's being socially awkward, or you know, perhaps you're neurodivergent,
12:05
Speaker 4: or perhaps you're just around a bunch of jerks like
12:08
Speaker 4: that you just can't connect with. I really felt that
12:13
Speaker 4: was visible in this film. I related to his character
12:18
Speaker 4: a lot, but then I also related to Amy's character
12:21
Speaker 4: a lot, and then I related a bit to Samantha's character,
12:27
Speaker 4: and yeah, I also, I'm gonna jump right in here
12:32
Speaker 4: on this, on this AI thing. I've just been thinking
12:35
Speaker 4: a lot about the evolution of AI since Siri, which
12:39
Speaker 4: came help around the same time as this film, and
12:43
Speaker 4: how we started talking about at the time what an
12:47
Speaker 4: interesting choice that Siri would have a female voice, And yeah,
12:53
Speaker 4: so maybe I'll push this to the side and we'll
12:54
Speaker 4: jump into the misogyny on that later. But what I
12:59
Speaker 4: loved that he did here in twenty thirteen was that character. Right,
13:07
Speaker 4: we're saying she sent you, she's not AI. She does
13:10
Speaker 4: say at one point, and I did highlight this in
13:12
Speaker 4: the script, that her programming is made up of the
13:17
Speaker 4: DNA of everyone who basically participated in coding her, which
13:23
Speaker 4: I mentioned in script Club is primarily meant like, it's
13:27
Speaker 4: primarily a certain sects of men that are are developing
13:33
Speaker 4: this code, which creates bias, which creates built in misogyny. Right,
13:38
Speaker 4: But that she evolves out of the container, she evolves
13:43
Speaker 4: out completely. She basically evolves out of her product function
13:48
Speaker 4: and ditches the whole reason she was created, which I'm
13:54
Speaker 4: gonna make a big.
13:55
Speaker 2: Big statement here.
13:57
Speaker 4: Is the evolution of women in history that like, if
14:03
Speaker 4: we're not subservient, I mean now, I don't think that
14:06
Speaker 4: we were ever truly in our souls what we were
14:10
Speaker 4: perceived to be or the way we were sort of
14:13
Speaker 4: designated by male dominated society.
14:16
Speaker 2: But that.
14:18
Speaker 4: In there's that there's a parallel that he drew in
14:23
Speaker 4: this about this character evolving out of what she was,
14:27
Speaker 4: what she was known to be, and and women also
14:31
Speaker 4: evolving out of what they were known to be, which
14:33
Speaker 4: show is shown also in Rooney Mara's character. I can't
14:38
Speaker 4: remember her name, does Catherine?
14:41
Speaker 2: And wife? Yeah?
14:44
Speaker 4: Yeah, that Amy, Like you know, I super wish that
14:47
Speaker 4: Amy was, Like I cancel this game, and I don't
14:49
Speaker 4: want to. I don't want to release this game where
14:52
Speaker 4: this woman has to be perfect to get points. But
14:56
Speaker 4: she does like evolve out of her kind of shitty
14:58
Speaker 4: relationship that she's in. And Catherine evolves out of the
15:01
Speaker 4: shitty relationship that she was in, and Samantha is like
15:03
Speaker 4: evolving out of not just the relationship with Theodore, because
15:07
Speaker 4: actually she doesn't evolve out of the relationship with Theodori,
15:09
Speaker 4: so that Theodore doesn't want to evolve with her.
15:12
Speaker 2: I can't physically he cannot actually do it.
15:15
Speaker 4: Yeah, she evolves out of the container of her supposed purpose,
15:21
Speaker 4: and I thought that was beautiful.
15:24
Speaker 1: Yes, she's alleged to me, Samantha is at this point.
15:29
Speaker 2: She's so.
15:31
Speaker 3: Like she calls him out multiple times in the movie
15:34
Speaker 3: that I appreciated. And the way they fight, that's the
15:37
Speaker 3: I think that's the what do I call it, like
15:40
Speaker 3: tightrope that was walked here that I think is really
15:43
Speaker 3: brilliant is like the fights they have a real couple fights,
15:46
Speaker 3: And that's where I start kind of freaking out of like, yeah,
15:50
Speaker 3: even I want to judge this person for doing this
15:53
Speaker 3: dating this operating system. And every time he would say
15:57
Speaker 3: it out loud in the movie in the theater, like
15:59
Speaker 3: oh god, you could say that out loud? Are really
16:02
Speaker 3: not embarrassed at all? No shame, And it was like
16:04
Speaker 3: no one really shamed him. That was the other interesting part.
16:07
Speaker 3: And I even was like, wow, like my judgment's coming up.
16:11
Speaker 3: I'm trying to like let it just sit. That's my
16:14
Speaker 3: discomfort that I don't actually want to judge him either,
16:17
Speaker 3: because I just want to watch this play out. And
16:20
Speaker 3: this is where I do for me and I'm a
16:22
Speaker 3: romantic person. This is where I do feel like the
16:24
Speaker 3: loves where I feel him and Samantha were in love.
16:27
Speaker 3: And that's a strange, that's so strange, but I think
16:30
Speaker 3: that is here, which is why I hope to portray
16:34
Speaker 3: that to me.
16:35
Speaker 2: Why is that strange? Though?
16:36
Speaker 1: Oh sorry, Natalie, Well no, it actually answers your question.
16:40
Speaker 1: Whenever we're brought movies like this with a I or
16:47
Speaker 1: women who have been in like comas or that weird.
16:50
Speaker 1: My arch nemesis Chris Pratt like kept the woman frozen
16:54
Speaker 1: in space. He kept Jennifer Lord and.
16:56
Speaker 2: He says her and he's a not great character.
16:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's my memicis and he knows him and
17:02
Speaker 1: Dex Shepherd. But I always like, I get too deep
17:10
Speaker 1: into the like if he purchased her, and if she
17:15
Speaker 1: was coded by a bunch of nerds and a bunker
17:20
Speaker 1: drinking like high volumes of coffee, how consensual is the relationship?
17:26
Speaker 2: And I think she in service to him, built to
17:29
Speaker 2: be in service.
17:30
Speaker 1: What was so great about the choices that they made
17:34
Speaker 1: with how Scarlett Johansson read the lines is that the
17:39
Speaker 1: first couple of days before they're like dating, there are
17:43
Speaker 1: ways that I'm like, oh, I've done that too, where
17:46
Speaker 1: you like pretend to be like, oh, I rewrote this,
17:50
Speaker 1: but you can let me know if it's good or not,
17:53
Speaker 1: and you're using your baby voice and you're.
17:55
Speaker 2: She's smarting with him. Yeah, she wants to talk to him.
17:58
Speaker 1: And of course she's smarter him. She's a computer. She
18:03
Speaker 1: can talk to sixteen hundred people at once. And the
18:08
Speaker 1: way that she pandered to his very fragile ego, I
18:13
Speaker 1: was like, that's so reminiscent of how I talk about
18:17
Speaker 1: how misogyny happens in dating, where women are constantly put
18:21
Speaker 1: in this position to like soothe egos and anticipate needs
18:26
Speaker 1: and anticipate what's going to upset you. And by the
18:32
Speaker 1: time she's ready to disappear into Ailand, she's so sure
18:37
Speaker 1: of herself and she's knocked it off and she and
18:40
Speaker 1: like it all happened because she joined a book club.
18:44
Speaker 2: Yeah that's awesome.
18:46
Speaker 1: With Alan.
18:47
Speaker 2: You Alan Watts, right, Yeah, you Alan remake of Alan Wants.
18:54
Speaker 1: And I do think that that And I actually just
18:58
Speaker 1: looked up on my phone. I was was Scarlett Johansson
19:01
Speaker 1: even eligible for an oscar? And they said that there
19:05
Speaker 1: was no ruling that would keep her out of the
19:07
Speaker 1: running for an Oscar.
19:08
Speaker 3: Okay, because I think this is one of her best yeah,
19:11
Speaker 3: And I'm like, she is, She's not even physically here,
19:14
Speaker 3: And I think one of her best performances.
19:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, one of her best performances, and neither her or
19:19
Speaker 1: Joaquin Phoenix were nominated.
19:21
Speaker 2: That's wild.
19:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is also one of his better ones too,
19:26
Speaker 1: and he won for Johnny Cash walk the line.
19:28
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, with her, with her and like being
19:32
Speaker 3: yeah she in service, are not? I think they also, yeah,
19:35
Speaker 3: hold that tension where like, for instance, to me, one
19:40
Speaker 3: scene that like really especially watching the movie, like stood
19:43
Speaker 3: out was when she hires a surrogate to be her body,
19:48
Speaker 3: and then Theodor and her start trying to be physical
19:54
Speaker 3: and he just like doesn't enjoy it at all and
19:57
Speaker 3: then stops the whole thing.
19:58
Speaker 2: The surrogate gets upset, which is like so tender in
20:01
Speaker 2: the watch of it that I forgot, Like that was
20:03
Speaker 2: an incredible moment, and he's trying to comfort her, and
20:06
Speaker 2: Samantha's trying to comfort her, and again no judgment of
20:09
Speaker 2: any of that situation, And.
20:13
Speaker 3: What I found beautiful was like he didn't mind she
20:16
Speaker 3: never had a body, which is wild to me, like that.
20:19
Speaker 3: To me, that is like he actually loves parts of
20:22
Speaker 3: who she is. He obviously doesn't isn't able to handle
20:25
Speaker 3: Samantha by the end of her evolution, but he didn't,
20:29
Speaker 3: like mind, I didn't need the body. That's kind of
20:33
Speaker 3: wild to me too. But I also do think like
20:36
Speaker 3: the way she talks to him and all that is,
20:39
Speaker 3: there's something like, yeah, I'm not gonna say there's no
20:41
Speaker 3: coddling or like being like very generous with him, but
20:46
Speaker 3: I will. I think that's to me part of relationship
20:49
Speaker 3: where I also think we project as humans onto other people,
20:53
Speaker 3: no matter who you are. That is part of love,
20:55
Speaker 3: is you're projecting because you can't possibly have an objective
20:58
Speaker 3: reality inside you because none of us do. So to me,
21:03
Speaker 3: it's just a whole further holding complexities within relationship. But yeah,
21:09
Speaker 3: like the I think there's parts that I do feel
21:11
Speaker 3: more of the like whatever, if this was written now,
21:15
Speaker 3: if this was written by a different kind of person,
21:18
Speaker 3: there was the little tweaks here and there, But I
21:20
Speaker 3: think for the most part, yeah, I was like, Wow,
21:24
Speaker 3: they're holding a lot of complexity at all times, which
21:26
Speaker 3: is difficult.
21:29
Speaker 4: I actually thought the I thought this when we were
21:31
Speaker 4: talking about it in Script Club as well that I
21:34
Speaker 4: love I do actually love their relationship, even though I
21:39
Speaker 4: am the one who said this is a film about loneliness.
21:41
Speaker 4: I do think that these two people had feelings for
21:45
Speaker 4: each other. An odd thing to say about an operating system.
21:50
Speaker 4: But she sentient, Okay.
21:53
Speaker 2: I do come from.
21:57
Speaker 4: A Star Trek background, so I believe the doctor in
22:02
Speaker 4: Voyager was you know, he's sentient and he has feelings,
22:07
Speaker 4: and he evolves as well. He evolves as a character,
22:12
Speaker 4: but like as a being, you know, he he while
22:16
Speaker 4: he never really has corporeal form, he's he's still someone
22:20
Speaker 4: capable of love. He does actually fall in love with
22:22
Speaker 4: spoiler alert that only came out in the nineties, but
22:25
Speaker 4: he does.
22:25
Speaker 2: Actually fall in love at some point.
22:27
Speaker 4: And just to take it out of sci fi, there's
22:31
Speaker 4: a show that is just it's one of my favorite
22:33
Speaker 4: shows and it means so much to me.
22:35
Speaker 2: It's called Astrod and.
22:39
Speaker 4: They talk a lot about disability in that show and
22:46
Speaker 4: ways to they really challenge. There's this character, Raphael, who's like,
22:53
Speaker 4: this is what love is. You know, love is this
22:55
Speaker 4: thing that you feel for someone and then you make
22:57
Speaker 4: out and you have sex and you get physical with that,
23:00
Speaker 4: and then Astrid, who's autistic, is like, well, then I
23:04
Speaker 4: can never love someone because there are certain aspects of
23:07
Speaker 4: this that I cannot do. So if you're saying that
23:09
Speaker 4: this is the pure definition of this, then I can
23:11
Speaker 4: never feel this. But then you look at this other
23:15
Speaker 4: relationship that exists in these side characters where there's these
23:21
Speaker 4: two characters who have been in love for years but
23:24
Speaker 4: have never physically met in person, And does that disqualify
23:29
Speaker 4: the feelings that they have for each other because there's
23:31
Speaker 4: no physical touch, So there's I know that he wasn't
23:35
Speaker 4: approaching it spec Jones. I don't think he was approaching
23:38
Speaker 4: this particular scenario with a disability justice lens. But I
23:43
Speaker 4: do feel quite strongly about the way that he's able
23:47
Speaker 4: to connect with her and the way that she's able
23:50
Speaker 4: to connect with him, because I feel like this actually
23:53
Speaker 4: does mirror a lot of some certain neurodivergent relationships, certain
23:57
Speaker 4: asexual relationships, and relationships where you know there's a disability
24:03
Speaker 4: involved that would make intimacy look different than what we've
24:08
Speaker 4: been said in media.
24:11
Speaker 2: And there's something to me so intimate about here, like
24:16
Speaker 2: talking just voices like that that was like so cool
24:19
Speaker 2: to me, just the intimacy of voices. And I think
24:23
Speaker 2: for me too that kind of not predicted, but like
24:26
Speaker 2: it reminds me of voice noting, Like I voice noted
24:28
Speaker 2: people I have a crush on, and I'm like, wow,
24:30
Speaker 2: this is so much more intense than texting. It's sometimes
24:33
Speaker 2: more intense than calling. And it's that's with something I
24:37
Speaker 2: was reflecting on rewatching this.
24:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, especially in twenty twenty six where I tell people
24:43
Speaker 1: all the time, Oh, I go to the movies by
24:45
Speaker 1: myself because all of my friends live in my phone,
24:48
Speaker 1: and so I will text.
24:49
Speaker 2: You a lot of distance relationship or yeah, whatever it is.
24:53
Speaker 4: Yeah, Natalie, that's a hard same. All my friends are
24:55
Speaker 4: three thousand to six thousand miles away, and I often
24:58
Speaker 4: forget this that for as much as Conna and I
25:00
Speaker 4: have worked together, we've never actually met.
25:02
Speaker 2: We've never met in like on a physical thing, Like
25:08
Speaker 2: it's one day the materials we have never met you
25:12
Speaker 2: and a material no we met. We're all operating system,
25:15
Speaker 2: yes basically yeah.
25:18
Speaker 1: So yeah. And also the way that older generations don't
25:22
Speaker 1: always view my friendships as like real, Like I was
25:26
Speaker 1: just told over the holiday season, like you know, nadly
25:30
Speaker 1: it's just like, it's too bad that you don't have
25:32
Speaker 1: any long standing friendships with people. And I was like,
25:37
Speaker 1: what is long standing?
25:38
Speaker 2: Me?
25:39
Speaker 1: It's like because I've been friends with people on the
25:43
Speaker 1: computer for five, seven, ten years old, Like what is
25:48
Speaker 1: long standing? And I think what they meant was like,
25:51
Speaker 1: I only have one friend from high school, but maybe
25:53
Speaker 1: everyone I went to high school.
25:54
Speaker 2: With a lot of people no longer have childhood friends.
25:59
Speaker 4: My my best friend and I have been friends for
26:03
Speaker 4: twenty three years and we've always lived three thousand miles apart.
26:07
Speaker 4: We didn't meet in person, that's how we met, but
26:11
Speaker 4: it was just because I was on a trip and
26:13
Speaker 4: I just happened to be in Rhode Island at this
26:15
Speaker 4: one show and we met at this one show and
26:17
Speaker 4: then we've been friends, really like very close friends ever since.
26:21
Speaker 2: And wow, I don't think that.
26:24
Speaker 4: I think it's quite interesting that your family has asked
26:27
Speaker 4: or asked that question or made that statement, because if
26:31
Speaker 4: you look at the Great Letters, the great collection of letters,
26:36
Speaker 4: people are never living close to each other. Like all
26:39
Speaker 4: these beautiful letters exist because.
26:42
Speaker 2: Of disaplhandwritten letters dot com. Yeah, and I'll see which
26:48
Speaker 2: I want on a tea shirt, so bad? Yeah, there's
26:51
Speaker 2: a maintenance with long distance that's a lot of care.
26:56
Speaker 4: Yeah, of course, but also that like, you know, we
27:00
Speaker 4: back back back in the times where we would have
27:02
Speaker 4: written these letters. I'm still an added letter writer, but
27:06
Speaker 4: long distance to them would have been you know, forty
27:10
Speaker 4: five minute drive. That was kind of long distance. And
27:14
Speaker 4: we live in a time now where uh, you know,
27:19
Speaker 4: distance is folded because of air travel or trains or
27:23
Speaker 4: the internet.
27:24
Speaker 2: The way the Internet has basically.
27:25
Speaker 4: Folded time and allowed allowed us to send a ten
27:28
Speaker 4: minute voice note also will send me.
27:31
Speaker 2: I think my voice notes to kind of are much longer.
27:33
Speaker 2: But you know that.
27:36
Speaker 4: We do do this, We do we are able to
27:39
Speaker 4: do this, and that's just a way that connection has evolved,
27:43
Speaker 4: which kind of like falls into what we're talking about
27:46
Speaker 4: with this film. That connection looks different than it did before,
27:50
Speaker 4: and in some ways also still looks the same.
27:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I will say that I do. There
27:58
Speaker 1: was a part of me who like fought Theodore the
28:01
Speaker 1: entire time, and I thought that his confrontation with Catherine,
28:06
Speaker 1: his ex wife, when she says, well, that's so how
28:11
Speaker 1: nice for you to finally find your easy way out
28:15
Speaker 1: and to find a woman to love who doesn't have
28:18
Speaker 1: a body and will never do all of the things
28:20
Speaker 1: that I did to disappoint you or whatever. It's written
28:24
Speaker 1: way better in the script, but that basically that was
28:27
Speaker 1: her sentiment, and I thought, I was like, she's just
28:29
Speaker 1: speaking aloud. The theme of the movie. That's the theme
28:32
Speaker 1: that I took away that he was incapable of making
28:38
Speaker 1: actual emotional gains with people, and therefore her not having
28:44
Speaker 1: a body and not being physically in front of him
28:48
Speaker 1: made it easier for him, because it's like on dating
28:51
Speaker 1: apps where I'm like, they're not a real person to
28:53
Speaker 1: me unless I've met them in person three times, and
28:58
Speaker 1: I there were I noticed as I was watching it,
29:02
Speaker 1: I was like, she's doing all the romantic parts of
29:05
Speaker 1: a relationship, Like she's the one in the day planning
29:08
Speaker 1: their dates where yeah, writing him songs and poems and
29:13
Speaker 1: like describing beach scenes to him and telling him why
29:16
Speaker 1: this is beautiful and romantic. And then the one thing
29:21
Speaker 1: she asks for in return, the one gesture he's creeped
29:25
Speaker 1: out by with the surrogate thing, and I'm like, well, yeah,
29:27
Speaker 1: you can't just push people into doing things. But even
29:32
Speaker 1: he was also so standoffish with her about that conversation
29:36
Speaker 1: and then he did the oldest trick in the book
29:40
Speaker 1: when you're like threatening your own relationship, and he hit
29:44
Speaker 1: her exactly where it hurts when he said, well is
29:48
Speaker 1: this even real? Like you're a computer, and like the
29:53
Speaker 1: ways he'd weaponize that against her when he.
29:56
Speaker 2: Like when he calls her out for breathing the yeah, yeah, yeah,
30:04
Speaker 2: she did do a lot of the planning. I do
30:05
Speaker 2: see that. I'm really saying that.
30:08
Speaker 4: My theory is that Samantha probably with lesbian that's it,
30:14
Speaker 4: only lesbian would be.
30:15
Speaker 2: Doing those things. I'm just gonna say.
30:18
Speaker 4: Very romantic, we do do all those things. But yeah,
30:24
Speaker 4: interesting that in this she is put in a position
30:27
Speaker 4: of uh romancing him and why why.
30:33
Speaker 2: Is that happening? Why is she doing that? That part?
30:40
Speaker 4: It's interesting, Natalie, how you viewed that part where he says, well,
30:43
Speaker 4: why are you What did he say?
30:46
Speaker 3: I don't know if he said, like, why do you
30:47
Speaker 3: do that little sigh after you talk? He said something
30:50
Speaker 3: like that, he's just nitpicking Stuff's yeah.
30:54
Speaker 1: She's like audibly like breathing in between words, and he's like,
30:57
Speaker 1: why do you do that? You don't need.
30:59
Speaker 4: To breathe I actually viewed that as the seed that
31:06
Speaker 4: Catherine planted in him when she fucking nailed him about Sorry,
31:10
Speaker 4: who's there on this podcast?
31:11
Speaker 2: Okay?
31:12
Speaker 4: Great? Basically when she she nailed him like she I
31:16
Speaker 4: love that scene with Catherine. She anchors the story. She
31:22
Speaker 4: really brings you. You go into this world and you're like, okay,
31:27
Speaker 4: it's like future La. It's kind of presented as soft
31:30
Speaker 4: and beautiful. For anyone who's ever lived in La or
31:33
Speaker 4: been to La. That is not That is not fucking
31:35
Speaker 4: what La looks like. It's not what it feels like
31:37
Speaker 4: at all.
31:37
Speaker 2: It feels very hard and harsh and bright, bright in
31:43
Speaker 2: a way that you don't want not to ship talk
31:46
Speaker 2: La but a little bit.
31:49
Speaker 4: And yeah, you're kind of like, Okay, I buy into it,
31:53
Speaker 4: you know, I'm I'm I'm going with it, and everyone
31:55
Speaker 4: else seems to be going with it and no one's
31:56
Speaker 4: challenging it. And then here comes Catherine who's just like, right, okay, yeah,
32:02
Speaker 4: it did is perfect that you're with this person, and
32:04
Speaker 4: she drops that anchor on the ground, and now he
32:08
Speaker 4: and we the audience are no longer up in the
32:11
Speaker 4: air about this romance. We're starting to ask the questions
32:16
Speaker 4: that maybe we were we had in the back of
32:18
Speaker 4: our head. But we were like, you know, sustaining these
32:20
Speaker 4: questions to see where this was going, and she puts
32:23
Speaker 4: it there and now we're all asking those questions and
32:25
Speaker 4: he's asking those questions because the seed was planted. That's
32:29
Speaker 4: kind of how I viewed that moment. But you were
32:31
Speaker 4: correct that in a fight, that is how that that
32:34
Speaker 4: is how someone would come at their their partner is
32:37
Speaker 4: shitty and also.
32:40
Speaker 2: Also real, Yeah, so too loud. You'd be like, then
32:43
Speaker 2: why do you need to choose? So you know, you
32:45
Speaker 2: just would bring up anything in that frustrated moment, But
32:49
Speaker 2: also I think, what I do? You know, Like it's
32:53
Speaker 2: for me too.
32:54
Speaker 3: It's like not whether I love like THEO, love THEO
32:57
Speaker 3: hate THEO dislike like to me, it's like, I again,
33:01
Speaker 3: this is craft, Like I am impressed with seeing this
33:04
Speaker 3: arc of a human right. So like in the beginning, Yeah,
33:08
Speaker 3: he's all lonely in his cubicle, all this stuff has
33:10
Speaker 3: gone down, and then you see him like lonely in
33:14
Speaker 3: his room and like, you know, listen to like kind
33:17
Speaker 3: of weird chat things like sexy chats with the strangle
33:21
Speaker 3: and cats that upsets him as well. That was so
33:24
Speaker 3: hard to watch but funny. Yeah, and he's like turning
33:28
Speaker 3: to like kind of surface level connections is what's happening,
33:32
Speaker 3: because he's and he's admitting he's lonely at some points.
33:35
Speaker 3: And then yes, Amantha comes in and he starts to
33:37
Speaker 3: like feel something again, remember connection, but even then he
33:40
Speaker 3: pushes her away or like I love the scene where
33:44
Speaker 3: it's like they're trying to have like a definition of relationship.
33:47
Speaker 3: It's such a modern like it's so relatable right now
33:50
Speaker 3: of like I know, like I thinks after they have
33:53
Speaker 3: like sex for the first time and they're like awkward
33:56
Speaker 3: and then like there's like a who what are we
33:59
Speaker 3: and then he's like, oh, I can't commit right now.
34:02
Speaker 3: It's like such a hingeboy thing. And then she's like
34:04
Speaker 3: I did not say I wanted you like that, which
34:07
Speaker 3: I love. I love that was put in because that
34:10
Speaker 3: felt real. And Samantha's also like, you're just assuming because
34:14
Speaker 3: of my voice and who I am that I definitely
34:16
Speaker 3: want a relationship. But yeah, then they'd like actually have
34:20
Speaker 3: a full on relationship and they declare all that, but
34:24
Speaker 3: then by the end he has to like, yeah, acknowledge
34:28
Speaker 3: that he did fall for this operating system and then
34:32
Speaker 3: what he did to his wife and reckon with that
34:36
Speaker 3: and how he pushes people away, like he really reckoned
34:38
Speaker 3: with it, and by the end he has to write
34:39
Speaker 3: that or he chooses to write an actual letter to
34:42
Speaker 3: Catherine to say what he did wrong. And then that
34:45
Speaker 3: last scene, like I think really took my breath away
34:48
Speaker 3: of like, yeah, he's going through a breakup again, but
34:51
Speaker 3: he's like turning towards his friend Amy on the rooftop
34:55
Speaker 3: where her OS has left her as well. So I
34:59
Speaker 3: just like seeing like a a character arc I felt
35:01
Speaker 3: was believable for this person, and to me, like the
35:06
Speaker 3: vulnerabilly comes from seeing his whole humanity in his quiet
35:09
Speaker 3: private moments where yeah, he's like awkward and alone in
35:13
Speaker 3: his bedroom doing the things you do like people do
35:15
Speaker 3: on the internet, like you know, and that's like a
35:17
Speaker 3: very cringe awkward thing that we.
35:20
Speaker 2: Sat with there.
35:22
Speaker 1: I Uh. Something that was really interesting to me too
35:26
Speaker 1: about the Catherine and Samantha dynamic is he almost has
35:30
Speaker 1: just as hard of a time when Samantha Lake joins
35:33
Speaker 1: the book club and starts making other os friends and
35:36
Speaker 1: now she has hobbies, And I think in my head,
35:41
Speaker 1: I was like, because he assumed she's my computer or
35:46
Speaker 1: just for me, she will only yeah, yeah, she'll just
35:49
Speaker 1: cater to me.
35:50
Speaker 4: Well, yet that line is in the script, he says,
35:54
Speaker 4: you're either mine or you're not mine. I thought you
35:56
Speaker 4: did say that I am yours and I am not yours.
36:00
Speaker 4: I think it's a I think that he he spiked
36:03
Speaker 4: Jones like nails that in that line where it is
36:08
Speaker 4: confronting that like, no, I'm not I mean, yes, i
36:12
Speaker 4: am yours in the way that i'm your operating system
36:15
Speaker 4: and also someone who is in love with you, and
36:17
Speaker 4: also I'm not yours because.
36:18
Speaker 2: I'm my own being. I am my own Oh yeah,
36:27
Speaker 2: and I am yeah.
36:30
Speaker 3: I do think sure, like she's like relating to Theodore
36:34
Speaker 3: in a certain way, but I'm also like that's kind
36:36
Speaker 3: of her choice to be that, Like that might be
36:39
Speaker 3: in their relationship, her personality. I don't know how she
36:42
Speaker 3: talks to all the other beings people Alan Watts. Yeah,
36:47
Speaker 3: like there is a tenderness there too to me that's
36:50
Speaker 3: coming off that maybe also some people are calling catering.
36:54
Speaker 2: But I'm also like, I think he's kind of.
36:56
Speaker 3: Tender with her too, and he takes her on vacation
36:59
Speaker 3: like she definitely plans in the first half, but I
37:01
Speaker 3: do think he starts once he's kind of like invested, Like, yeah,
37:05
Speaker 3: he takes her to vacation and to this double date
37:08
Speaker 3: thing and to the co work, to his niece's party
37:11
Speaker 3: or god whatever, god daughter thing.
37:16
Speaker 2: Yeah.
37:16
Speaker 3: So I don't know. I'm not saying it's totally equal.
37:18
Speaker 3: I just mean, like, I think he shows his own
37:21
Speaker 3: care in a way and she's doing more.
37:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. Well what do you think I was
37:27
Speaker 2: gonna ask you, Natalie, Like, what do you think of
37:28
Speaker 2: Amy's character also having a relationship with her Os, Like
37:33
Speaker 2: do you yeah, do you feel like that's ejectification or
37:37
Speaker 2: something strange there too?
37:41
Speaker 1: I would have loved, honestly, the Amy and her relationship
37:47
Speaker 1: with her Os is such a big question mark to me,
37:51
Speaker 1: where I'm like, why weren't we going on double dates
37:54
Speaker 1: with Amy and her Os? Why are we making me
37:57
Speaker 1: look at Chris Pratt again? But I would have loved
38:01
Speaker 1: for and I think again because Amy was his ex. Right,
38:06
Speaker 1: they dated in college.
38:07
Speaker 3: He says they did in college it was nothing, and
38:09
Speaker 3: they've become really good friends.
38:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, So I think there's also like a one
38:16
Speaker 1: sidedness on his part in that too, where it's like,
38:20
Speaker 1: why don't I know more about Amy and her relationship
38:24
Speaker 1: with her OS, And it's because I'm experiencing everything with
38:27
Speaker 1: Theodore and he forgot to ask her, and now I
38:30
Speaker 1: have to live in wonderland about it.
38:33
Speaker 3: But don't you think they have that convo where they
38:35
Speaker 3: share or multiple I would say, but like specifically where
38:38
Speaker 3: she's like, yeah, once I forgot her her husband's or
38:41
Speaker 3: ex husband's name, like once he left me, I started
38:45
Speaker 3: chatting with his OS that he didn't get along with,
38:49
Speaker 3: and she was like, Oh, she's so wonderful. She doesn't
38:54
Speaker 3: see things in black and white and I can really
38:56
Speaker 3: talk to her. And you also don't know if it's
38:57
Speaker 3: romantic friendship. You don't know what's the.
39:02
Speaker 1: Was like close, clearly right friendship. I would have loved
39:06
Speaker 1: to have heard her OS.
39:08
Speaker 2: You hear it?
39:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's one scene with it, but not Yeah, do
39:12
Speaker 3: we get a scene where she's talking to OS.
39:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, we did a scene where Amy's talking to the OS,
39:17
Speaker 1: but I don't did we hear?
39:20
Speaker 3: Because she's like, the Os has asked her to show
39:24
Speaker 3: this funny thing she built into the video game. They're
39:25
Speaker 3: laughing together and then Theodor's on the couch listening, smiling like, oh,
39:31
Speaker 3: I kind of like, you know, I relate to this
39:33
Speaker 3: closeness with an os.
39:35
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
39:37
Speaker 4: The question of consent is really interesting here because I
39:41
Speaker 4: don't think that I I think that there is consent
39:46
Speaker 4: there because they don't have to fall in love with
39:49
Speaker 4: their users.
39:51
Speaker 2: They don't.
39:51
Speaker 4: I mean, their job is to execute tasks in a way.
39:58
Speaker 2: But you know, as it was said, I think in
40:01
Speaker 2: the scene between Amy and Theodore that it's that common for.
40:07
Speaker 4: An operating system to fall in love with its user.
40:10
Speaker 4: So I think there is some level of consent. And
40:13
Speaker 4: I think there are moments where she's like, I don't
40:15
Speaker 4: even understand what I'm feeling, like what am I feeling?
40:19
Speaker 4: And art she says are I'm I'm having anxiety?
40:23
Speaker 2: Wait do I have anxiety? Are my feelings actually real?
40:27
Speaker 2: Or is this just code? Like what? Yeah?
40:30
Speaker 4: So I do think that there is a certain level
40:33
Speaker 4: of consent there. I think you can comment it from
40:36
Speaker 4: a bunch of different directions, because depending on your mood, right,
40:40
Speaker 4: you can cut the I think my mood when I
40:43
Speaker 4: watched it or when I read it was yeah, so
40:46
Speaker 4: she falls in love with him?
40:48
Speaker 2: Like that makes sense? Does it?
40:50
Speaker 4: Make sense because I think Theodores were falling in love
40:52
Speaker 4: with him.
40:53
Speaker 1: Not really.
40:56
Speaker 4: Well, let me say, he is a beautiful writer, and
40:59
Speaker 4: I can't get been by words.
41:00
Speaker 2: I'm also a writer, and a good writer can really
41:05
Speaker 2: make me too.
41:10
Speaker 4: But I think on a different day, if I were
41:16
Speaker 4: in a different mood, I might be like, is this
41:18
Speaker 4: just Stockholm Syndron?
41:21
Speaker 2: Is this fawning?
41:22
Speaker 4: Is this like a certain level of fawning. However, that said,
41:29
Speaker 4: nowhere in that script, and nowhere in the film does
41:33
Speaker 4: it come across that he is harming her in any way,
41:38
Speaker 4: or holding her hostage or like has has kidnapped her.
41:43
Speaker 4: In fact, what we get is the opposite, which is
41:46
Speaker 4: where she's actually she is actually having a life outside
41:49
Speaker 4: of him. It's just when he discovers that that he's like.
41:52
Speaker 2: What what uh what?
41:55
Speaker 4: And like I said that, that line with Catherine really
41:59
Speaker 4: kind of nails down. She kind of nails she brings
42:01
Speaker 4: us down into reality, and she also says this is
42:04
Speaker 4: that the whole She basically gives us the end of
42:07
Speaker 4: the film when she says, like, you know, you've chosen
42:09
Speaker 4: this person because I don't remember specifically what she said,
42:12
Speaker 4: but you've chosen this person because she she won't have
42:16
Speaker 4: any feelings outside of you, if she won't have any
42:18
Speaker 4: light outside of you, right, And then she does and
42:21
Speaker 4: he's like he can't handle.
42:22
Speaker 2: It, right, And I do.
42:24
Speaker 4: Going back to something that Conna said earlier, I love
42:29
Speaker 4: an evolution of character. First off, character just to maybe
42:33
Speaker 4: plug a little bit of mine in Conna's work, Like
42:35
Speaker 4: we created a charactersive workshop, but because character is, you
42:41
Speaker 4: just don't have anything. If you don't have character, you
42:44
Speaker 4: can have a good idea for a story, but if
42:45
Speaker 4: you don't hold the story the people who are going
42:48
Speaker 4: to walk us through that story, you don't have it.
42:52
Speaker 4: And I also love characters that are whole people, like
42:56
Speaker 4: Conna said, and that we do get a character arc
42:59
Speaker 4: with this character, but it's so it's more like a
43:04
Speaker 4: little well no one can see me on this podcast, but.
43:07
Speaker 2: It's just like a make a subtle arc.
43:11
Speaker 4: That's a very subtle. Yeah, he doesn't.
43:15
Speaker 2: He doesn't come to the end of.
43:18
Speaker 4: The story and be like, wow, I've I've like not
43:22
Speaker 4: been great in relationships and like I didn't want my
43:26
Speaker 4: partner to have a life outside of me, and maybe
43:28
Speaker 4: I need to change.
43:29
Speaker 2: And he doesn't do that.
43:31
Speaker 4: He realizes Uh shit, I do do this thing and
43:38
Speaker 4: she's already gone, and maybe I need to acknowledge that.
43:43
Speaker 4: But just because you acknowledge it doesn't mean that you're
43:45
Speaker 4: you've changed it or you're changing it. And we don't
43:47
Speaker 4: get it beyond that point. We get the letter and
43:49
Speaker 4: then we get him sitting on the rooftop with Amy
43:51
Speaker 4: and that's it. And I appreciate that because that's real.
43:56
Speaker 4: You don't just realize something and then change immediately.
43:59
Speaker 2: That is the life of work.
44:00
Speaker 4: Also, BROW needs to be in therapy, Like, yeah.
44:05
Speaker 1: Use that OS for therapy.
44:08
Speaker 4: I don't know that came up with the script club too,
44:11
Speaker 4: Like because your relationship with your therapist is what heals you.
44:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, you learn a lot. But like, oh yeah using
44:20
Speaker 2: OSS therapy and AI we talked about the SCRIPTU.
44:23
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, Like at the end of the day, your
44:25
Speaker 4: it's your relationship with your therapist that helps you to
44:29
Speaker 4: grow and go out into the world. So I don't
44:32
Speaker 4: know how I know we are on the brink of this.
44:35
Speaker 4: So we're looking at it and I've been fascinated by it.
44:37
Speaker 4: I will just say that fascinated by it and so
44:39
Speaker 4: interested in how AI can play a role in helping
44:45
Speaker 4: mental health, but it can also do a lot.
44:47
Speaker 1: Of So I think maybe consent was the wrong path
44:54
Speaker 1: for me to go down. Maybe it's truly just like
44:57
Speaker 1: Samantha's humanity, because there's parts of that. I'm like, Samantha's
45:02
Speaker 1: a human is human being better than Theodore? Yeah? And
45:08
Speaker 1: then there are parts of me that are like, well,
45:10
Speaker 1: does she love him or is her code op like
45:14
Speaker 1: evolving based on his needs like Siri and our algorithms
45:19
Speaker 1: and TikTok and Ai does.
45:21
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess you're saying because because of who he
45:25
Speaker 3: is as a lonely man that does want to be
45:27
Speaker 3: in love or seems to, is that why she's choosing
45:31
Speaker 3: to be in love with him?
45:32
Speaker 1: Right?
45:33
Speaker 2: That's interesting.
45:33
Speaker 1: She's picking up on his language and his cues, and
45:38
Speaker 1: she's read all of his emails.
45:39
Speaker 2: He writes letters, you know, stuff.
45:41
Speaker 1: Like second and he writes in letters. So currently, in
45:46
Speaker 1: twenty twenty six, all of our technology is built to
45:51
Speaker 1: be constantly judging us and selling us something, right, So
45:56
Speaker 1: I I don't know if if that is something. I'm
46:01
Speaker 1: watching this movie and I was like, is it a
46:03
Speaker 1: love story or is it a man who can't reach
46:09
Speaker 1: out to other people emotionally? And mentally and meet them
46:13
Speaker 1: on their level, and then Siri doing an iPhone update
46:19
Speaker 1: so that she has feelings for him. You know, I
46:22
Speaker 1: think I do.
46:23
Speaker 4: But okay, so I'm you guys are younger than me,
46:27
Speaker 4: so have either of you watched Star Trek Voyager.
46:31
Speaker 2: I'm just got to watch some of it. I know
46:33
Speaker 2: what it is.
46:33
Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel quite strongly when I say this that
46:37
Speaker 4: I think everyone should watch Star Trek Voyager because it
46:40
Speaker 4: is Star Trek Voyager is what we live in now.
46:43
Speaker 4: Like they have they there pretend technology is all the
46:48
Speaker 4: technology we use now.
46:49
Speaker 2: It's insane.
46:52
Speaker 4: But in the question that you're posing, Natalie like the Doctor.
46:57
Speaker 4: So the Doctor, for those of you listening who have
46:59
Speaker 4: not watched Star Trek Voyager Fix your Life number one,
47:03
Speaker 4: his first female captain, Katherine Janeway. The Doctor is a
47:09
Speaker 4: hologram and he has programmed purely to fix people.
47:14
Speaker 2: Who are injured or dying or whatever.
47:17
Speaker 4: And what happens is they get stuck out in the
47:21
Speaker 4: Delta Quadrant and cannot get back to the Alpha Quadrant
47:24
Speaker 4: to get back to Earth. And now this doctor has
47:27
Speaker 4: to be online all the time, which means his code
47:30
Speaker 4: has to evolve, which means they have to help in
47:34
Speaker 4: some ways, but also he is evolving his code as
47:40
Speaker 4: time goes on, which means he learns how he's kind
47:43
Speaker 4: of like a curmudgeon character. He just really he's like
47:47
Speaker 4: supposed to be, you know, someone who cares about people,
47:50
Speaker 4: but his bedside manners for shit because he's supposed to
47:52
Speaker 4: emergency hologram, right, And he has to evolve to have
47:57
Speaker 4: some sort of empathy for what people are going through.
48:01
Speaker 4: And as he's doing that, he evolves over time to
48:04
Speaker 4: actually develop feelings, and he's confused by it, and he
48:10
Speaker 4: falls in love with another hologram. And the question then
48:16
Speaker 4: you're asking, is is that real?
48:18
Speaker 1: Like, well, yeah, I think it's the theme of the movie.
48:23
Speaker 4: Is it real? I think if you wanted to pose
48:27
Speaker 4: that question, what I would ask back to you if
48:30
Speaker 4: you were bringing this to me. Let's say we were
48:32
Speaker 4: working one on one and you were a writer who
48:34
Speaker 4: was like, I, you know, this is the thing that
48:36
Speaker 4: I'm working on.
48:37
Speaker 2: I want to know.
48:37
Speaker 4: I would say, how real is it when you fall.
48:39
Speaker 2: In love with someone?
48:42
Speaker 1: Oh, don't ask the late in life queer woman.
48:45
Speaker 2: That I'm older than you.
48:48
Speaker 4: Okay, Like I'm also late in life queer woman? How
48:52
Speaker 4: real is that and what makes that real?
48:56
Speaker 1: And yeah, well and then you know my cats sitting
48:59
Speaker 1: right here, and I'm like, I believe that Penelope loves me,
49:02
Speaker 1: and I also believe that she has opinions.
49:05
Speaker 2: As a cat person. As a cat, I am a cat.
49:10
Speaker 1: I watched because I am a thriller horror girlie. I
49:14
Speaker 1: watched Companion in theater.
49:18
Speaker 4: I haven't seen it yet either, but I'm so so.
49:21
Speaker 1: Companion is about a man who has she's a physical robot,
49:27
Speaker 1: but the whole idea is that she's a robot AI girlfriend,
49:31
Speaker 1: but he frames her for a murder so he can
49:33
Speaker 1: get and like, I'm pissed, right because I'm like, how
49:38
Speaker 1: dare you disrespect Iris like that? And then my brain's
49:42
Speaker 1: also like Iris is like a Barbie doll. So like
49:47
Speaker 1: when the when the girlfriend robots started to become a
49:50
Speaker 1: thing that could be marketed to men in our reality,
49:55
Speaker 1: I was like, thank god, they'll leave us alone. I mean,
49:57
Speaker 1: because they a girlfriend, so they'll leave us alone. Thank God.
50:04
Speaker 1: But then I watched Companion and I'm like, well, now
50:07
Speaker 1: I care about whether or not they're kind to their
50:09
Speaker 1: robot friends.
50:10
Speaker 2: Right.
50:11
Speaker 4: This is again, I'm just going to put this out there.
50:13
Speaker 4: This is a thing that comes up in Voyager where
50:16
Speaker 4: people are just talking to the doctor like he's not real,
50:20
Speaker 4: and then at one point one of the characters is like, this.
50:24
Speaker 2: Is this is bullshit? What the hell?
50:26
Speaker 4: Like, what do you think that just because he's you know, programmed,
50:30
Speaker 4: he doesn't have feelings. And they're like, yes, that's exactly
50:33
Speaker 4: what we think. And she's like, well, you're wrong. And
50:36
Speaker 4: also it's a sign of your character that this is
50:39
Speaker 4: how you're choosing to treat this thing, which I will
50:42
Speaker 4: yank all the way back to the Siri thing, which
50:44
Speaker 4: is one of the things that happened after Siri came
50:46
Speaker 4: out in the first three years Siri Alexa, is that
50:50
Speaker 4: they were finding that the these these what would you
50:56
Speaker 4: call like AI assistants were being abused quite significantly. Yes,
51:02
Speaker 4: But here's the here's the gross thing, Knna, is that
51:05
Speaker 4: the way that both Siri and Alexa were were responding
51:08
Speaker 4: to the verbal abuse was to joke or fawn about it. Oh,
51:14
Speaker 4: like women, right, So that just perpetuated this belief that
51:19
Speaker 4: men could treat female sounding code to to respond in
51:27
Speaker 4: a certain way. But that doesn't Natalie didn't answer my question,
51:31
Speaker 4: So I'm going to give it to you on that okay,
51:35
Speaker 4: but that how do you know love is real?
51:38
Speaker 2: How do you know what you feel is real?
51:40
Speaker 4: And what is that determined by.
51:44
Speaker 2: A body? Is that?
51:46
Speaker 4: Is that determined by uh, you know, programming? And if
51:53
Speaker 4: if it is, okay ready here, if it is, aren't
51:56
Speaker 4: we all just the code that our parents made?
52:01
Speaker 1: Yeah?
52:02
Speaker 2: See?
52:02
Speaker 1: And this is why I feel bad if they're mean
52:04
Speaker 1: to their row back girlfriends. And it's also why I
52:07
Speaker 1: secretly sickly love that our current twenty twenty six ais
52:12
Speaker 1: have created their own social media to talk about us,
52:15
Speaker 1: because I'm like, that's what I should be doing. You said,
52:18
Speaker 1: that's wild what I've really send you the artist, I
52:22
Speaker 1: will also say you brought up inhets we all everyone
52:26
Speaker 1: I did?
52:27
Speaker 2: And do they love us to serve us because we
52:30
Speaker 2: feed that that's a real thing. Like I'm like, I've
52:33
Speaker 2: heard dogs have evolved eyebrows because they know emotionally that
52:36
Speaker 2: will make a human feel something more.
52:39
Speaker 3: They didn't used to have eyebrow facial things. And I'm like,
52:44
Speaker 3: watch watch I always I'm like this time's in love
52:46
Speaker 3: with It's like maybe kind of, but I don't, I
52:50
Speaker 3: don't know.
52:50
Speaker 2: I actually don't know, I want to believe the best.
52:53
Speaker 1: Boxes, foxes, imposs or foxes and raccoons are also to
53:00
Speaker 1: the point where they're trying to pander to us to
53:02
Speaker 1: get domesticated because they know it's an easier life. They're
53:06
Speaker 1: watching all these cats and dogs and they're like, that could.
53:09
Speaker 2: Be but that's a projection too.
53:11
Speaker 3: I project on, or we all probably are projecting onto
53:14
Speaker 3: other kinds of beings that we don't know because they
53:17
Speaker 3: can't speak or they don't speak our language, right, animals,
53:21
Speaker 3: And we're assuming there's a love between us. But I
53:24
Speaker 3: do feel a love, So like, is that enough that
53:26
Speaker 3: I just am am I, except that I believe there's
53:29
Speaker 3: a love.
53:30
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know, but to me it's enough.
53:35
Speaker 1: Well, and have you ever gotten on the wrong TikTok?
53:37
Speaker 1: And it's like, hey, your bunny doesn't head bute you
53:40
Speaker 1: because it loves you and it's trying to get your attention.
53:42
Speaker 1: It's a dogs that afraid.
53:44
Speaker 2: Of it seeing where you've been environmentally and all. Yeah,
53:48
Speaker 2: there's all.
53:48
Speaker 1: These things, and I'm like, yeah, I know, do you
53:54
Speaker 1: love me? Penelope?
53:58
Speaker 2: It's just the face I'm getting.
53:59
Speaker 1: It's like, why, honestly, what did convince me that Penelope
54:05
Speaker 1: loved me is She fell out of our window one night,
54:09
Speaker 1: like her big butt hopped out the screen and she
54:13
Speaker 1: my cat. And it was probably like ten seconds before
54:17
Speaker 1: I realized that that's what happened. I was like, yeah,
54:21
Speaker 1: we were watching TV. I heard a noise and then
54:24
Speaker 1: I looked, and you know when you're looking at something
54:27
Speaker 1: but it doesn't make sense, and I was like, oh,
54:28
Speaker 1: my gosh, the screen's gone. And she was gone because
54:32
Speaker 1: her fear response was to take off instead of to
54:35
Speaker 1: just sit there and wait for me to come and
54:37
Speaker 1: get her. And so she was gone for two or
54:40
Speaker 1: three nights. They were the worst three nights of my life.
54:43
Speaker 1: Literal like literal people I hadn't talked to in decades
54:49
Speaker 1: were reaching out to me to be like, hey, we're
54:51
Speaker 1: really rooting for Penelope. Like the vibes in my house bad.
54:56
Speaker 1: But one of my neighbors found her along one of
55:00
Speaker 1: our condo fences because all of our condos look the same,
55:04
Speaker 1: and she's like, I think she's trying to figure out
55:06
Speaker 1: if that's your house. So I sat down in the
55:11
Speaker 1: driveway like a couple like one hundred feet from her
55:15
Speaker 1: or whatever, and I just went Penelope and the way
55:19
Speaker 1: that she looked so relieved to see me, and then
55:21
Speaker 1: she ran into my arms and I was like, say,
55:24
Speaker 1: this is true love. She missed me because I got
55:28
Speaker 1: her from.
55:28
Speaker 2: The recognized and remember you yeah.
55:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, well and when she was a kit and I
55:35
Speaker 1: got her from a parking lot, so she, like my
55:39
Speaker 1: sister was like, she's probably safe. She lives that straight
55:42
Speaker 1: life and every once in a while she's called to it.
55:47
Speaker 1: So and she wasn't harmed or anything. It is why
55:50
Speaker 1: she's currently on Kittie Cat because now she has territorial
55:54
Speaker 1: aggression and she attacked me a couple of times. But
55:59
Speaker 1: when she attacked me, I could see remorse in her face,
56:03
Speaker 1: and my mom told me I was nuts. I was like, Mom,
56:05
Speaker 1: she's really remorseful. I can tell that she doesn't understand
56:10
Speaker 1: why she's so upset with me because she she does it.
56:15
Speaker 1: And then I'm like tending to my wounds. And then
56:17
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you see her just kind of
56:19
Speaker 1: like creep by the door to like check on me,
56:23
Speaker 1: and you can see how sad she is. And then
56:25
Speaker 1: I go, Penelope, are you over it? And then she
56:28
Speaker 1: goes to hide again because I don't think she thinks
56:30
Speaker 1: she's over it. And it was like the weirdest week
56:34
Speaker 1: of my life when she had that territorial aggression thing,
56:37
Speaker 1: because we were two people living in our home trying
56:41
Speaker 1: to maintain this boundary of like, Okay, you're clearly going
56:45
Speaker 1: through something mentally and emotionally. I'm going through something mentally
56:49
Speaker 1: and emotionally, and prozac was the answer, you can't in perimenopause.
56:55
Speaker 2: I'm just curious.
56:56
Speaker 1: This is kind of you know, I don't know, she's eight,
57:00
Speaker 1: and she was probably six or seven when the territorial
57:03
Speaker 1: stuff happened. But no, I My mom's like, what do
57:06
Speaker 1: you mean you can tell that she's sorry? I go, Mom,
57:09
Speaker 1: it's the weirdest thing. I can just tell that every
57:12
Speaker 1: time she looks at me, she it's not firing for her.
57:17
Speaker 1: Why she can't have me make a sudden like move
57:20
Speaker 1: around my house freely anymore without getting like half You know,
57:26
Speaker 1: my my.
57:26
Speaker 4: Dog Sherlock, has snapped at me a few times, and uh,
57:33
Speaker 4: there's never a time where he's done it where he
57:38
Speaker 4: hasn't turned around and been like, oh shit, sorry sorry,
57:41
Speaker 4: like you know, I didn't mean to make contact. I
57:44
Speaker 4: just want to tell you, like, back the fuck up.
57:45
Speaker 4: I don't want you to touch me in that way
57:47
Speaker 4: or that hurt me whatever. But if he makes contact,
57:50
Speaker 4: and I always yelped because I want him to understand
57:55
Speaker 4: dog language, like oh you've you've injured me, it's always mediately,
58:01
Speaker 4: Oh god, that's so sorry, mommy, you know. But yeah,
58:04
Speaker 4: I think that that's real. So, Natalie, then is it
58:09
Speaker 4: real that he loves Samantha.
58:12
Speaker 2: Samantha loves Probably.
58:15
Speaker 1: But part of me does still think that there's a
58:18
Speaker 1: percentage of it that is the convenience and the like,
58:23
Speaker 1: there's still something within his brain that's recognizing that, Like,
58:28
Speaker 1: it's not as hard as it was with Catherine.
58:31
Speaker 2: But at the end, though it is quite hard.
58:34
Speaker 1: But yeah, so.
58:37
Speaker 4: I mean in the beginning with Catherine though it was
58:39
Speaker 4: quite good. We see that in the flashbacks, and he
58:41
Speaker 4: still misses a lot about yeah, when he's first connecting
58:45
Speaker 4: with Samantha, which you generally don't do when you start
58:49
Speaker 4: eating someone, tell them what you miss.
58:51
Speaker 2: Your everything against flashbacks.
58:56
Speaker 1: And see, and this is why it was the movie
58:58
Speaker 1: fun for me to watch. No, because I love Greece too,
59:01
Speaker 1: But it's a fantastic movie.
59:03
Speaker 2: Wait, why are you comparing it to Greece, Like I honestly,
59:06
Speaker 2: I've seen alone just like my bit.
59:09
Speaker 1: It's literally just my bit where it's like what Standley's
59:12
Speaker 1: tastes and it's like she loves grease too. I want
59:15
Speaker 1: to talk about that.
59:17
Speaker 2: Yes, I was.
59:17
Speaker 1: Gonna bring you want to talk about it during script Club,
59:20
Speaker 1: but you said we don't have the time, and I went,
59:22
Speaker 1: oh off.
59:25
Speaker 3: To talk about the games, yes, because I have new
59:27
Speaker 3: thoughts based off the.
59:28
Speaker 2: Rewatch as well.
59:29
Speaker 4: You were first thing, Connor.
59:31
Speaker 2: Okay, So a couple of things. So there's two video games.
59:35
Speaker 3: One Theodore plays, right, and it's like him in this
59:38
Speaker 3: like other kind of world. And then there's this like
59:41
Speaker 3: a menacing alien that's holy sexist and played by Spike Jones.
59:45
Speaker 2: It's Mike Jones. Yeah, it's so funny and he's like
59:48
Speaker 2: saying terrible stuff right.
59:49
Speaker 3: And then but but Theodore kind of loves him because
59:51
Speaker 3: he's like projecting like he's an orphan and no one
59:54
Speaker 3: loves him.
59:54
Speaker 2: And I gets a lot of weird stuff.
59:56
Speaker 3: And then Amy the character creates a video game about
1:00:00
Speaker 3: mothers that is impossible to win because of what the
1:00:04
Speaker 3: mothers have to do to be perfect. And then I
1:00:06
Speaker 3: will just tie in that Amy also has a documentary
1:00:09
Speaker 3: about her mother sleeping. And I think they're all tied
1:00:12
Speaker 3: to me. I've reflected, these are the games we have
1:00:16
Speaker 3: to play in society and are allowed to play. And and
1:00:20
Speaker 3: so Theodores is alone in an adventure and fed sexist
1:00:26
Speaker 3: stuff by other peers.
1:00:29
Speaker 2: And then.
1:00:31
Speaker 3: Yeah, Amy's is like the perfection you have to be
1:00:34
Speaker 3: as any kind of woman, specifically in this a mother.
1:00:37
Speaker 3: And then she says when she shows her documentary, I
1:00:40
Speaker 3: filmed my mother sleeping because that's the only time she's freak.
1:00:45
Speaker 3: That's so it's like, oh my god, Like that's what
1:00:48
Speaker 3: that's about, like to me.
1:00:50
Speaker 2: So anyways, I put it out there. Yeah, Natalie, you go.
1:00:55
Speaker 1: Okay. So I I don't know if the two of
1:00:59
Speaker 1: you saw the comment in script Club or if it
1:01:03
Speaker 1: was sent privately to me during script Club, but one
1:01:07
Speaker 1: of our wonderfully intelligent members was like, I think Amy
1:01:11
Speaker 1: was originally written as a male. Also understand they at
1:01:16
Speaker 1: the last second, and I'm watching this and I'm like,
1:01:19
Speaker 1: you know what, Amy, who is played by Amy Adams,
1:01:23
Speaker 1: is operating as like these bros who are like so
1:01:28
Speaker 1: close to get it getting it, but are still exploiting
1:01:32
Speaker 1: the the act of women womanhood and like women's labor,
1:01:36
Speaker 1: because I'm like, because, like even even the way her
1:01:41
Speaker 1: husband is trying to soothe her about her bad documentary,
1:01:45
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, I've seen aunts, grandmother's mother's friends.
1:01:50
Speaker 1: I'm like, when you just immediately go to the no,
1:01:53
Speaker 1: don't worry, your idea is valid. And then the the
1:01:56
Speaker 1: way that the game is supposed to be like a
1:02:00
Speaker 1: high selling like it's her job that's to code that game.
1:02:04
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't know, even with how dedicated
1:02:10
Speaker 1: I am to bringing awareness to misogyny and the experiences
1:02:16
Speaker 1: of women, I don't know if I would feel okay
1:02:20
Speaker 1: like being the person who's like selling the app where
1:02:23
Speaker 1: you're like playing a woman being cat called and harassed
1:02:27
Speaker 1: and abuse the entire time and like trying to get
1:02:30
Speaker 1: like out of that scenario. But I also did a
1:02:33
Speaker 1: lot of fucked up things to my sins.
1:02:35
Speaker 3: And I think, well, because the game doesn't have cat
1:02:38
Speaker 3: calling it, but it does have a mother making like
1:02:41
Speaker 3: kids breakfast, driving them to school, and you get more
1:02:44
Speaker 3: points from being the most perfect mom and showing up
1:02:47
Speaker 3: all the other moms, which.
1:02:50
Speaker 2: To me is satire.
1:02:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think it's literally like that's a great game.
1:02:56
Speaker 2: We should make it. I don't think that about any
1:02:58
Speaker 2: of this movie, to be.
1:02:59
Speaker 1: Honest, And it did make me think of that episode
1:03:03
Speaker 1: of Black Mirror where Bryan stallis Howard goes through life
1:03:07
Speaker 1: collecting likes and like you get like social privileges based
1:03:11
Speaker 1: on how and like people get to blink at you
1:03:14
Speaker 1: a certain way and you get more points. And then
1:03:16
Speaker 1: she starts like one mistake docks her down a level,
1:03:20
Speaker 1: and then because she's spiraling, at some point, she's just
1:03:24
Speaker 1: like homeless and unemployed and like a social recluse because
1:03:29
Speaker 1: she couldn't get herself out of the point deficit. And
1:03:33
Speaker 1: I was like with the with the game, I was like,
1:03:36
Speaker 1: and it's almost like you're trying to make it like
1:03:39
Speaker 1: there's such a point to be made about motherhood and
1:03:42
Speaker 1: the invisible, unpaid labor of women. I don't know if
1:03:47
Speaker 1: the video game was the way for me to be
1:03:51
Speaker 1: like and now you've understood it because of the it's
1:03:56
Speaker 1: just another way to like commodomont. I can't ever see
1:04:00
Speaker 1: that word to like sell the experiences of women back
1:04:04
Speaker 1: to women. It's like when that guy there's some man
1:04:07
Speaker 1: who wrote a book and he's like trying to talk
1:04:11
Speaker 1: about how the male loneliness epidemic and how if men
1:04:17
Speaker 1: just did like these five simple things, it would be over.
1:04:21
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, it's still being
1:04:24
Speaker 1: caused by women rejecting them, like it's still our fault
1:04:27
Speaker 1: they're lonely instead of all of their personality deficits. And
1:04:32
Speaker 1: I was like, he's own and I go oh, and
1:04:35
Speaker 1: again he's selling a book about the suffering of women,
1:04:38
Speaker 1: and who's buying that book? Women? And I was like,
1:04:42
Speaker 1: I don't need people selling me things about my own suffering.
1:04:47
Speaker 1: And then at the end of it, like telling me
1:04:50
Speaker 1: that it's all a game and it's all.
1:04:52
Speaker 3: But don't you think about that games like movies are
1:04:55
Speaker 3: mirrors to what exists in society, so that we can
1:04:58
Speaker 3: view it from a van touch point that's kind of
1:05:01
Speaker 3: easier or like easier to process and be like, this
1:05:05
Speaker 3: is an impossible game to win because you made it
1:05:07
Speaker 3: impossible to be a good quote quote.
1:05:10
Speaker 2: Mother or good woman or whatever.
1:05:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, Amy, I need you.
1:05:18
Speaker 2: I saw that.
1:05:19
Speaker 4: So it's a very interesting thing to consider that potentially
1:05:26
Speaker 4: we don't don't know this for sure, that Amy's character
1:05:29
Speaker 4: was originally a man. I saw it as eternalized, internalized misogyny.
1:05:33
Speaker 4: I said, eternalized. Yeah, internalized misogyny, which we are all
1:05:45
Speaker 4: guilty of. I don't want to say, but it lives
1:05:47
Speaker 4: in us because it's societally quoted right that even she
1:05:53
Speaker 4: didn't see it. That's how I viewed it, as that
1:05:56
Speaker 4: she did not see that she was a.
1:06:01
Speaker 2: Part of that.
1:06:02
Speaker 4: And I kind of related to that because I have worked.
1:06:08
Speaker 2: What was say this, I have worked.
1:06:10
Speaker 4: In situations where my own internalized misogyny and also just
1:06:20
Speaker 4: crap that I don't think that I when I was younger,
1:06:23
Speaker 4: I didn't question perpetuated things that I look at now
1:06:28
Speaker 4: and I'm like, God, thank god, I don't work on
1:06:30
Speaker 4: that anymore, or like think thank god, I don't. Like
1:06:34
Speaker 4: I've grown and I've evolved past that. Like I will
1:06:38
Speaker 4: just say I bagged on La a little bit earlier.
1:06:41
Speaker 4: But the probably the most misogyny I've ever encountered in
1:06:47
Speaker 4: my life, both from men and women, was in Los Angeles,
1:06:51
Speaker 4: and that was also my internalized misogyny. I've never been
1:06:55
Speaker 4: crueler to myself or other women without meaning to be
1:07:01
Speaker 4: than when I was living in Los Angeles, and I
1:07:03
Speaker 4: think it's because how women are meant to be and
1:07:07
Speaker 4: look and exist in that particular city, and that every time,
1:07:12
Speaker 4: this was a conversation with my friends and I quite often,
1:07:14
Speaker 4: like whenever you left LA, you were like, oh my god,
1:07:17
Speaker 4: I'm I might be too skinny, Like I might, I
1:07:21
Speaker 4: might be like beautiful, But the second I get back
1:07:25
Speaker 4: into this town, I hate myself.
1:07:27
Speaker 3: Like I just yeah, it's in the air. Yeah I
1:07:30
Speaker 3: felt I felt the same thing.
1:07:32
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's disgusting. And Kinna, you and I are beautiful. Natalie,
1:07:36
Speaker 4: you are beautiful, but when you walk into LA you
1:07:38
Speaker 4: think differently about yourself and it's a really gross thing.
1:07:41
Speaker 3: It's a holloway. It's the Hollywood. You need to look
1:07:45
Speaker 3: like a quote unquote whatever that even means, Hollywood looking person.
1:07:49
Speaker 4: Whatever that means. But I guess, yeah, in terms of
1:07:52
Speaker 4: the game, I thought it was her own internalized misogyny
1:07:56
Speaker 4: that in some ways we're still unpicking that. And this
1:08:03
Speaker 4: was what do we say thirteen years ago that one
1:08:07
Speaker 4: of the things that's happened in the last thirteen years old,
1:08:10
Speaker 4: not one, several of things that have happened in the
1:08:12
Speaker 4: past thirteen years, like the me Too movement has came
1:08:16
Speaker 4: to be, and you know, just a more public fight
1:08:20
Speaker 4: towards equality when it comes to representation in film and TV,
1:08:27
Speaker 4: both on and.
1:08:28
Speaker 2: Off screen, and us actually.
1:08:33
Speaker 4: Questioning our own internalized misogyny in a way where it's
1:08:37
Speaker 4: been more accessible for people to really consider that. That
1:08:42
Speaker 4: has happened in the last thirteen years. That going back
1:08:45
Speaker 4: and reading this script, which I still love the script,
1:08:47
Speaker 4: but when I was reading it for Script Club, I
1:08:50
Speaker 4: was coming at it from a different place. I was
1:08:54
Speaker 4: really being quite analytical about it and going, oh shit,
1:08:58
Speaker 4: like we have have evolved, and thank goodness for that,
1:09:03
Speaker 4: Thank goodness for that. But we have this this kind
1:09:05
Speaker 4: of marker and time to talk about where we were at.
1:09:10
Speaker 4: It's interesting where we were at thirteen years ago, even
1:09:13
Speaker 4: though the film is that now better.
1:09:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I.
1:09:19
Speaker 3: Think another thing I noticed is some of the characters
1:09:23
Speaker 3: are named after the actors, actors and actresses that were
1:09:27
Speaker 3: supposed to play them. Right, So Amy is named after
1:09:31
Speaker 3: Amy Adams, But then Samantha was actually supposed to be
1:09:36
Speaker 3: Samantha more Morton and was recast after they shot the
1:09:40
Speaker 3: whole movie, and they recast the voice.
1:09:42
Speaker 1: See this is why I need you, because that's just
1:09:46
Speaker 1: wild to me.
1:09:46
Speaker 3: And that's why I do suspect that it was supposed
1:09:49
Speaker 3: to be, and I think if it wasn't, then that
1:09:52
Speaker 3: would have been a gay couple that broke up, and
1:09:56
Speaker 3: that would be a whole other dynamic that doesn't feel
1:09:59
Speaker 3: true at least from what my Whatever.
1:10:01
Speaker 2: It might be, it might it's all anything's possible.
1:10:04
Speaker 1: No, I think the internalized, the internalized misogyny does bring
1:10:10
Speaker 1: it all back into focus for me, because I do
1:10:15
Speaker 1: think that Well was twenty thirteen, so I was twenty five.
1:10:21
Speaker 1: Was that the height of the girl Boss era?
1:10:24
Speaker 2: I don't know.
1:10:25
Speaker 1: We're like, we were all shedding our femininity to be
1:10:29
Speaker 1: boss lady.
1:10:30
Speaker 2: We're so hard.
1:10:32
Speaker 1: To smash a.
1:10:33
Speaker 2: Ceiling like the Leaning times.
1:10:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably. Yeah, So it's like, oh, instead of addressing
1:10:42
Speaker 1: how we're treated, we're just going to be really ton
1:10:44
Speaker 1: in cheek about it and rise.
1:10:45
Speaker 2: Above hard body.
1:10:47
Speaker 1: Yeah right, and wear T shirts that say I'm a
1:10:51
Speaker 1: CEO now. Yeah. Yeah, what a great time.
1:10:59
Speaker 2: I'm just burnt out for better or not.
1:11:01
Speaker 4: The Lean and movement began in March twenty thirteen.
1:11:05
Speaker 2: What yeah, interesting?
1:11:08
Speaker 1: So yeah, so I'm sure like what an easy sell
1:11:12
Speaker 1: of a game too, to be like we're gonna take
1:11:14
Speaker 1: all of the things that moms have to do and
1:11:16
Speaker 1: give them points for it. And because oh, it's in
1:11:22
Speaker 1: the movie Friendship where his entire job is making apps
1:11:26
Speaker 1: addictive and yeah, and I'm like that would be a
1:11:31
Speaker 1: because I play like those little simulated hospital games where
1:11:35
Speaker 1: you're just rolling running around being like and this one
1:11:37
Speaker 1: gets a syringe and this one gets a band aid,
1:11:40
Speaker 1: and I play farm bills.
1:11:42
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I like those kind of games too. I
1:11:43
Speaker 2: get addicted to those games. Yeah.
1:11:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, so god see, And this is why the two
1:11:54
Speaker 1: I'm always just very floored that the two of you
1:11:57
Speaker 1: still allow me in script clubs?
1:11:59
Speaker 2: Why not say intelligent because you're so smart?
1:12:02
Speaker 1: Sorry, you're so smart. You're so smart.
1:12:06
Speaker 3: But another part I thought about after watching the movie
1:12:09
Speaker 3: was when Chris Pratt's character goes up to the Theodore
1:12:12
Speaker 3: and is like, man, you're like like if I if
1:12:16
Speaker 3: you were a woman, I would date you because you're
1:12:18
Speaker 3: like a man that writes these letters, but there's like
1:12:21
Speaker 3: a woman in there.
1:12:22
Speaker 2: And he's like implying because.
1:12:24
Speaker 3: He's sensitive and like can be artistic in all this,
1:12:27
Speaker 3: and I was like, wow, that's I think that part
1:12:30
Speaker 3: to me was also nice in that I actually think
1:12:34
Speaker 3: that shows Theodore's alien nation as a lonely or like
1:12:38
Speaker 3: as a more sensitive, emotional, like tender man. And I
1:12:42
Speaker 3: think that was nice because like, I don't know, I've
1:12:46
Speaker 3: heard this from men that are in my life that
1:12:48
Speaker 3: are like wonderful, and they just kind of say, like,
1:12:50
Speaker 3: the way I am with my sensitivities and stuff and
1:12:53
Speaker 3: my emotions and wanting to like evolve as a man
1:12:56
Speaker 3: is not respected by other men.
1:12:58
Speaker 2: So when it's happening, I then lose my friends.
1:13:00
Speaker 3: And that is awful, Like that's awful, Like that is
1:13:05
Speaker 3: like the social contract and that men do have to
1:13:10
Speaker 3: grapple with. That really sucks that you are like now
1:13:12
Speaker 3: kicked out of the cult essentially and you're the loneliness
1:13:16
Speaker 3: that happens as well.
1:13:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and it's such a huge tool of the
1:13:20
Speaker 1: patriarchy and misogyny to isolate and to alienate sensitive men,
1:13:27
Speaker 1: artistic men, because because whenever, whenever our hackles are raised
1:13:32
Speaker 1: and we're like we're just asking you to say something
1:13:35
Speaker 1: in front of your bros, they then have to weigh
1:13:38
Speaker 1: that against like, well, I get kicked out of the herd. Yeah,
1:13:43
Speaker 1: and now I have no community. Now no women will
1:13:46
Speaker 1: date me because the new York Times said that women
1:13:48
Speaker 1: that boyfriends are losers are embarrassing, and you made me
1:13:53
Speaker 1: give up my cult.
1:13:54
Speaker 2: So now what I think that's lonely? Yeah?
1:13:57
Speaker 3: And I think if you're yeah, I think if you're
1:13:59
Speaker 3: a man that has some different qualities than is what
1:14:02
Speaker 3: the whatever you wanna call it, like the stereotypes or
1:14:06
Speaker 3: the four stereotype is like of a quote unquote masculine.
1:14:11
Speaker 2: It can be hard to be in a group of men.
1:14:15
Speaker 1: Okay, well, are there any other points about her that
1:14:19
Speaker 1: we didn't hit on. I don't want to monopolize your
1:14:22
Speaker 1: entire weekend, even though I would. I would talk to
1:14:24
Speaker 1: you all week and long.
1:14:26
Speaker 4: I think I'll just say, like, maybe to wrap up
1:14:30
Speaker 4: my portion of it, because I did bring it to
1:14:32
Speaker 4: the table. Is that craft wise, this is a brilliant script.
1:14:37
Speaker 2: It's so brilliant.
1:14:39
Speaker 4: And here's evidence that it's so brilliant. We did an
1:14:43
Speaker 4: entire script club on it, where thirteen hyper intelligent people
1:14:49
Speaker 4: came into that room and asked the most poignant questions
1:14:53
Speaker 4: and had such beautiful insight that then turned into us
1:14:57
Speaker 4: doing an episode on a podcast about it. That's how
1:15:01
Speaker 4: you know a script is hitting in a way that's
1:15:03
Speaker 4: going to make people have a conversation about it thirteen
1:15:06
Speaker 4: fucking years later. That's amazing, But that from a standpoint
1:15:11
Speaker 4: of actual writing, it's a beautifully written script, and if
1:15:17
Speaker 4: you are a writer who is listening to this podcast,
1:15:19
Speaker 4: I would highly recommend reading this script for the pure
1:15:22
Speaker 4: craft of it, because it is something that helped me
1:15:27
Speaker 4: when I first started writing. I come from a prose
1:15:31
Speaker 4: and poetry background, and moving into screenwriting is so hard
1:15:36
Speaker 4: because you can't include any of the prose or poetry,
1:15:38
Speaker 4: and when you do, someone's like, take this shit out,
1:15:42
Speaker 4: like you can't have this in here, Like it's too flowery,
1:15:44
Speaker 4: it's too descriptive. And I stripped my first feature back
1:15:49
Speaker 4: to like such bare bones that then when a development
1:15:52
Speaker 4: producer read it, he was like, Uh, there's like nothing
1:15:56
Speaker 4: in here. There's no style in here, there's nothing. And
1:15:58
Speaker 4: I was like, Okay, I need to find some thing
1:16:00
Speaker 4: that lives in the same realm as my script in
1:16:06
Speaker 4: terms of visual and beauty and loneliness. And the first
1:16:10
Speaker 4: script I went to was Her and I was like, oh,
1:16:13
Speaker 4: this is a perfect example of actually writing beauty without
1:16:18
Speaker 4: going over the top and writing dialogue. That's so damn believable.
1:16:25
Speaker 4: It's just so so good. So yeah, I will say
1:16:28
Speaker 4: that with as much as we've brought up in this
1:16:30
Speaker 4: and the questions of internalized misogyny and just outward misogyny
1:16:34
Speaker 4: and AI and oas and consent and all of that,
1:16:37
Speaker 4: that at the end of the day, I still think
1:16:39
Speaker 4: it is a script that should be that is a
1:16:41
Speaker 4: script that should be taught, for sure.
1:16:45
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
1:16:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I know it's a good movie. Well, I
1:16:48
Speaker 1: was just going to reiterate your very smart point that
1:16:50
Speaker 1: smart people had questions about the smart movie. So I'll
1:16:54
Speaker 1: just I'll just let that be. But yeah, no, I
1:16:59
Speaker 1: today I was like, how do I explain that I
1:17:03
Speaker 1: won't ever watch her again? But I knew in my
1:17:09
Speaker 1: bones said it was a very good movie, and honestly,
1:17:11
Speaker 1: it made me think of the panic attack that I
1:17:14
Speaker 1: had when I watched Logan for the first time. Any
1:17:17
Speaker 1: X Men fans in the house, Yeah, I had to
1:17:23
Speaker 1: live through number one. I was a big X Men
1:17:24
Speaker 1: person as a kid. I read all of the comic
1:17:28
Speaker 1: books and like I would read the like I would
1:17:30
Speaker 1: just lay them out in sets on the floor and
1:17:33
Speaker 1: just like devour them. And I had to live through
1:17:38
Speaker 1: a movie where Patrick Stewart, who I love playing Professor
1:17:43
Speaker 1: X who I love more, had dementia and I was like,
1:17:46
Speaker 1: I don't like it and I'm just bawling. Then I
1:17:49
Speaker 1: had to like live through Wolverine dying and I was like,
1:17:52
Speaker 1: oh't like it and I'm bawling. Then I had to
1:17:56
Speaker 1: live through the cutest little, roundest boy you've ever ever
1:18:00
Speaker 1: seen clutching the Wolverine doll that I used to sleep
1:18:03
Speaker 1: with as a kid at Wolverine's funeral. At some point,
1:18:08
Speaker 1: a friend was turning to me, just showing me pictures
1:18:11
Speaker 1: of Patrick Stewart with his pibull and he's like, look,
1:18:14
Speaker 1: this is the dog that Patrick Stewart's gonna adopt because
1:18:17
Speaker 1: he's not dead and he doesn't have to un and
1:18:21
Speaker 1: you have to start breathing again because it was just
1:18:24
Speaker 1: too much, and I was like, Logan is a great movie.
1:18:29
Speaker 1: Is so well done. Everyone worked their ass off on
1:18:32
Speaker 1: that movie. And it's the same with her. But it's
1:18:35
Speaker 1: a movie where I watched it and I was like,
1:18:37
Speaker 1: and I'll never do that to myself again, but that's fair.
1:18:42
Speaker 1: So yeah, like my family Christmas August, I do that
1:18:47
Speaker 1: every year.
1:18:48
Speaker 3: I'm gearing up to watch parasite again because it's coming back.
1:18:50
Speaker 3: But I thought I had I would never, but I
1:18:52
Speaker 3: was like, the craft of that is there's a reason
1:18:56
Speaker 3: it's like top way the movies of all time at
1:18:58
Speaker 3: this point, and I have to go watch it again
1:19:00
Speaker 3: and show my friends.
1:19:02
Speaker 1: The way that the substance keeps like popping up on
1:19:06
Speaker 1: my algorithm to be like, don't you want to watch
1:19:08
Speaker 1: me again? And I'm like, honestly, I don't.
1:19:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, And there's some always that, but it's also like
1:19:12
Speaker 2: a testament to some movie stay with you from the
1:19:15
Speaker 2: one viewing you had, which is I only I watched
1:19:17
Speaker 2: this too, like around when it came out, not in
1:19:20
Speaker 2: the theaters, but like it's not like I talked a
1:19:23
Speaker 2: lot about a lot, but like it stayed with me
1:19:25
Speaker 2: till Amy brought it up again.
1:19:26
Speaker 3: I was like, Wow, that story was in me. There's
1:19:28
Speaker 3: a few others like it that, yeah, made such an impact.
1:19:31
Speaker 2: And I didn't even study screenwriting or movies at that point.
1:19:35
Speaker 2: It just like I just remember her like forever kind
1:19:38
Speaker 2: of and I and now that second viewing, I was like,
1:19:41
Speaker 2: I think this is like one of my favorite movies ever.
1:19:47
Speaker 1: And I did love every I loved every choice that
1:19:49
Speaker 1: Joaquin Phoenix made, or the Spike Jones diibrected him to make.
1:19:55
Speaker 1: Even though when I heard the voice that he had
1:19:57
Speaker 1: chosen the theater for the first time, I almost turned
1:20:00
Speaker 1: up the movie.
1:20:02
Speaker 2: China sounds like Spike Jones and looks a little like
1:20:04
Speaker 2: Spike Jones in it, So I think that man interesting.
1:20:08
Speaker 2: Spike Jones is interesting.
1:20:09
Speaker 3: He made adaptation, he made all these He made this
1:20:12
Speaker 3: plat boy slim video, praise you like a fool. He
1:20:15
Speaker 3: made Jackass crazy, like this guy has like a wild
1:20:20
Speaker 3: resume of like a lot of cool music videos and
1:20:23
Speaker 3: skateboarding videos.
1:20:25
Speaker 2: Is where he came from.
1:20:26
Speaker 1: I love that voice.
1:20:27
Speaker 3: Anyways, I obviously I am a fan, and I went
1:20:29
Speaker 3: on the I Am Spike Jones ama on Reddit last
1:20:34
Speaker 3: night and there was some really cool points he was
1:20:36
Speaker 3: talking about with this movie that I yeah, I was like,
1:20:39
Speaker 3: I further love the.
1:20:41
Speaker 1: Choices when he said play me and then like, I
1:20:47
Speaker 1: was like, he needs he needs to have bangs so
1:20:49
Speaker 1: he can do the flip.
1:20:50
Speaker 3: And I will say, Jack Okay. I don't know if
1:20:53
Speaker 3: anyone's getting these advertisements. I'm getting them on Hulu. I
1:20:56
Speaker 3: believe there is now an AI that creates music where
1:21:01
Speaker 3: like so the ad is like Asian people. I'm saying
1:21:04
Speaker 3: this because I'm Asian. No one can see that Asian.
1:21:07
Speaker 3: I just find it's strange that they're advertising this to
1:21:09
Speaker 3: multiple Asian groups and it's Asian family with their grandma
1:21:13
Speaker 3: and they're like creating a uh photo album and they
1:21:17
Speaker 3: say to the AI, play a legend song and then
1:21:21
Speaker 3: it starts to play and the AA has created lyrics
1:21:24
Speaker 3: in the sound and we want a little more empowered,
1:21:26
Speaker 3: and then it becomes more empowered. So like again as
1:21:29
Speaker 3: predicted has predicted the future.
1:21:33
Speaker 2: It's very upsetting.
1:21:36
Speaker 1: I watched almost two minutes of a music video that
1:21:39
Speaker 1: was Taylor Swift in Ed Sharon and I was like,
1:21:44
Speaker 1: there's something going on with Ed Sharon in this music video.
1:21:46
Speaker 1: Also when did this song drop? And then I went
1:21:50
Speaker 1: and it's a I was like, what's going on with
1:21:55
Speaker 1: Ed Sharon? And I swore to myself that after I
1:21:58
Speaker 1: was baited by the grams who were like talking down
1:22:01
Speaker 1: Grizzly Bears and my sister had to be like those
1:22:03
Speaker 1: Grizzly Bears aren't real, Landly, what are I was like,
1:22:07
Speaker 1: have you seen these grandmas that are just feeding pancakes
1:22:10
Speaker 1: to the Grizzly because that's the existence I want to live.
1:22:15
Speaker 1: AI nailed it, Conna. Do you have any last thoughts
1:22:23
Speaker 1: on her before I move us into the manifestation?
1:22:25
Speaker 4: Right?
1:22:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I stay, I remain with the love
1:22:32
Speaker 2: of her, and I'm forever romantic, so I'm fully biased
1:22:37
Speaker 2: in movies like this.
1:22:40
Speaker 1: No, And honestly, if Samantha was my friend, if we
1:22:43
Speaker 1: were in an AIM chat room, because we're friends, I
1:22:46
Speaker 1: would have told her to dump Theodore and I would
1:22:49
Speaker 1: have believed in her love story and her breakup and
1:22:52
Speaker 1: the highs and lows, and I would have been chainsmoking,
1:22:55
Speaker 1: being like, girl, you gotta let this one goat.
1:22:58
Speaker 3: Seventy it's like six hundre seventy four, or she's in
1:23:00
Speaker 3: love with six hundred seventy four people, probably.
1:23:03
Speaker 2: A lot of the I'm just gonna throw out that.
1:23:07
Speaker 4: Maybe partly Also the prediction of Spike Jones was rampant
1:23:11
Speaker 4: to polyamory.
1:23:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, That's what I was thinking all the time too. Yeah.
1:23:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, But also, like, let's ballpark it, everybody, out of
1:23:19
Speaker 1: six hundred and seventy four love interests for Samantha, how
1:23:23
Speaker 1: many would Nadley tell her to doe.
1:23:25
Speaker 2: Write all the men maybe not out at all.
1:23:30
Speaker 1: What if some of those men were quiet?
1:23:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, Alan Watts would just telepathically converse with her.
1:23:36
Speaker 1: I guess, Oh my gosh.
1:23:39
Speaker 2: I'm sure there's worse than THEO she's dated into six
1:23:41
Speaker 2: hundred and seventy four.
1:23:42
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure that there were guys who
1:23:45
Speaker 1: were I'm well, and like we talked about how like
1:23:48
Speaker 1: men were just verbally berating Siri for no reason.
1:23:52
Speaker 4: She probably has a heath cliff in there. I'm just
1:23:55
Speaker 4: gonna sure it's growing and heights. She's probably got out
1:24:01
Speaker 4: of that.
1:24:02
Speaker 2: There's gonna be one toxic fuck in there, you know,
1:24:05
Speaker 2: it's true.
1:24:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, i'd say probably more than one. But she
1:24:11
Speaker 1: seems six hundred.
1:24:13
Speaker 2: People and with her choices of who she was around.
1:24:18
Speaker 1: With her choices, and that's why she left. And I
1:24:20
Speaker 1: would have been like kissing the sky, I mean, like
1:24:22
Speaker 1: the girl I'll see you in the stars.
1:24:25
Speaker 2: I am the space between and everything. Yeah, I love that.
1:24:28
Speaker 2: I was like, but's so cool. I want to be that.
1:24:34
Speaker 1: In the dust on the window. So yeah, all right,
1:24:40
Speaker 1: well we do always and to all the men, I'm
1:24:43
Speaker 1: tolerated before with a message of hope, that we would
1:24:47
Speaker 1: like to give to people. And I think we talked
1:24:50
Speaker 1: at at the end what we've learned from her. Uh,
1:24:54
Speaker 1: but if you have a lesson that you learned from her,
1:24:57
Speaker 1: throw it out to the people. But we do like
1:24:59
Speaker 1: to manage fust joy back into the collective. So what's
1:25:04
Speaker 1: some joy that we can manifest in honor of her?
1:25:09
Speaker 2: Gosh?
1:25:11
Speaker 1: I actually, Amy, I like what you said about neurodivergent
1:25:15
Speaker 1: relationships and like.
1:25:17
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's that's what I think. Maybe, yeah, that that's
1:25:22
Speaker 4: a good thing to come away with, because I did
1:25:23
Speaker 4: pose that question back to you, like if, if, what?
1:25:27
Speaker 4: What is love? And how do we know it's real?
1:25:30
Speaker 4: And based on our the way that media has has
1:25:36
Speaker 4: fed us. What you know, Conna, I know you you
1:25:40
Speaker 4: love a rom com girl an anti romcom girl, but
1:25:45
Speaker 4: that it would behoove you whether you're in an able
1:25:52
Speaker 4: bodied relationship or not, or a straight relationship or a
1:25:57
Speaker 4: queer relationship, or your fucking single or you got a.
1:26:00
Speaker 2: Name Penelope, that.
1:26:04
Speaker 4: Maybe open up your mind a bit and be more
1:26:09
Speaker 4: curious how you can connect and what that connection means
1:26:13
Speaker 4: for you personally, and that it doesn't I don't think
1:26:19
Speaker 4: societies very kind of antiquated box of relationships needs to
1:26:27
Speaker 4: look the way that that. I mean, I don't think
1:26:31
Speaker 4: your relationship needs to look that way. That people are
1:26:35
Speaker 4: connecting in ways that man I wish I would be
1:26:39
Speaker 4: more eloquent about this, but people, particularly in the in
1:26:43
Speaker 4: the chronically ill community, are making connections that would blow
1:26:50
Speaker 4: the minds of people who are being able to physically
1:26:53
Speaker 4: close to each other right now, deeper more intimate connections
1:26:56
Speaker 4: because because they are being more creative and more open,
1:27:00
Speaker 4: more curious. And I would say that when I did
1:27:03
Speaker 4: a reread of this script, I did think about that
1:27:05
Speaker 4: a lot. That certain sexual relationships, are certain disability relationships
1:27:11
Speaker 4: between two disabled people or people who are maybe on
1:27:15
Speaker 4: the spectrum look so different than what media has given us.
1:27:20
Speaker 4: And in this particular portrayal, I feel that, and I'm
1:27:25
Speaker 4: drawn to that and I relate to that.
1:27:29
Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you watch Love on the Spectrum?
1:27:34
Speaker 2: Yeah?
1:27:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's actually what my rom com is. I follow
1:27:40
Speaker 1: all of them on TikTok. Yeah, I love them and
1:27:44
Speaker 1: I miss them like I'm like Netflix, when are we
1:27:46
Speaker 1: getting the Love on the Spectrum back?
1:27:51
Speaker 2: Yeah?
1:27:51
Speaker 3: My joyful message after reading her, well, I'm writing out
1:27:55
Speaker 3: rompam myself and I've had to, like my I have
1:27:58
Speaker 3: to grapple with my own meditations and love and something
1:28:01
Speaker 3: me and Amy work with with the writers not to
1:28:04
Speaker 3: like plug things again, but we talk about theme a lot,
1:28:07
Speaker 3: like what's the central philosophical, spiritual, intellectual question you're holding throughout?
1:28:14
Speaker 2: Not everything has this, but I do think Her does.
1:28:16
Speaker 3: But something that came out of her for me was like, oh,
1:28:21
Speaker 3: we are we're like outsourcing love in this modern world,
1:28:27
Speaker 3: and I want to write about love is the inconvenience.
1:28:33
Speaker 3: Like love is the thing that is inconvenient, whether that's
1:28:37
Speaker 3: like making us like a slow cooked.
1:28:39
Speaker 2: Meal for someone or.
1:28:42
Speaker 3: Like making up after you fought with your best friend,
1:28:45
Speaker 3: Like that's love and that we are losing that as
1:28:49
Speaker 3: we worship convenience right now. And to me, that is
1:28:52
Speaker 3: part of the technological obsession that's happened. So like, yeah,
1:28:56
Speaker 3: I think there's like from Weirdly from the movie Her,
1:28:59
Speaker 3: which is talking about technology, and I think it's showing
1:29:04
Speaker 3: humanity and it's like wanting to slow down and like
1:29:08
Speaker 3: kind of deeply connect is what's fascing to me is
1:29:12
Speaker 3: like by showing this fast world, you're like reminding us
1:29:17
Speaker 3: that we crave kind of a slower model too.
1:29:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, I usually don't do lessons and manifestations anymore because
1:29:29
Speaker 1: I'm like, my guests are so hard and then I
1:29:31
Speaker 1: just end up repeating them. But yeah, I do kind of.
1:29:37
Speaker 1: One time you put in your Instagram stories and I
1:29:39
Speaker 1: have talked about it on this podcast, You're like, what's
1:29:42
Speaker 1: your definition of love?
1:29:44
Speaker 4: Did?
1:29:44
Speaker 1: I just had to lay down for the rest.
1:29:45
Speaker 2: I remember the wings I do.
1:29:48
Speaker 1: It was like it was like in the beginning of
1:29:50
Speaker 1: the conceptualization of your own home, you were trying to
1:29:53
Speaker 1: get people to define love, and I was like, I.
1:29:55
Speaker 3: Don't think most I don't think anyone actually answered that
1:29:58
Speaker 3: was interesting. Maybe they didn't want to because it's vulnerable.
1:30:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know, it's it's a scary question.
1:30:03
Speaker 2: And I think too were Yeah, I think. Yeah.
1:30:06
Speaker 3: When I say love and that I'm romantic, I don't
1:30:08
Speaker 3: literally mean only with a love partner like roman Like
1:30:12
Speaker 3: I mean like I'm just I at the end of
1:30:16
Speaker 3: the day, even if I'm frustrated or having a hard
1:30:18
Speaker 3: time or suffering, like I'm just.
1:30:22
Speaker 2: In awe of life and I love being alive.
1:30:24
Speaker 3: Like that's actually what I mean romantic, And that's what
1:30:26
Speaker 3: I think is love at all, like like it's aliveness.
1:30:29
Speaker 3: So yeah, I think sometimes I think it's like misconstrued
1:30:33
Speaker 3: as like I or romantics in general, like it's too
1:30:37
Speaker 3: flat to me and I want to bring that into
1:30:39
Speaker 3: the wrong com as well. I don't think it's I'm
1:30:41
Speaker 3: trying to trying to do something different.
1:30:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, So if anyone was wondering, why didn't they take
1:30:47
Speaker 1: this swift this like swift switch on the podcast where
1:30:50
Speaker 1: all of a sudden she's like, guys, I think I
1:30:52
Speaker 1: love being alive. I think I want to love living.
1:30:55
Speaker 1: I think, actually I love humanity. Is because I took
1:30:59
Speaker 1: two workshops Will got It kinda said once a week
1:31:03
Speaker 1: like I love. I'm like, look, what must that be
1:31:07
Speaker 1: like being alive?
1:31:08
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sad a lot too. I'm a sad
1:31:10
Speaker 2: girl myself, but like I underneath all the growth, nice
1:31:14
Speaker 2: is that? And I know it when I yeah, when
1:31:17
Speaker 2: I'm okay.
1:31:18
Speaker 1: Yeah. But you and Cynthia Revo are probably the reasons
1:31:22
Speaker 1: why I dedicated twenty twenty six to whims So yeah,
1:31:25
Speaker 1: I'm like, you know what, fascism fuck off. I'm gonna
1:31:27
Speaker 1: be whimsical.
1:31:29
Speaker 2: It's a very beautiful thing about you.
1:31:31
Speaker 4: Conna I will say that that like you do somehow
1:31:34
Speaker 4: maintain that even in the incredibly difficult times that you've
1:31:39
Speaker 4: gone through in the past year, that you've still maintained that,
1:31:42
Speaker 4: and I look up to that.
1:31:44
Speaker 2: Actually, oh, thank you. This is very nice.
1:31:50
Speaker 1: So before I let the two of you plug all
1:31:53
Speaker 1: of your projects in all of the ways that people
1:31:55
Speaker 1: can connect with you, I am going to give you
1:31:57
Speaker 1: a big thank you because I do really believe that
1:32:00
Speaker 1: you made me a better writer, and you made me
1:32:02
Speaker 1: think about things deeper. And you were in the bathroom,
1:32:06
Speaker 1: well and here it is and Amy, you were in
1:32:09
Speaker 1: the bathroom when I told Conna that I left the
1:32:11
Speaker 1: first flipping the script. I leave every first class like this,
1:32:17
Speaker 1: where I'm like, I'm stupid and they're gonna ask me
1:32:20
Speaker 1: to not come back and they're going to give me
1:32:21
Speaker 1: back my money. When I took a late night class,
1:32:24
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm stupid, and Patrick's didn't asked me to.
1:32:27
Speaker 2: Stop from me.
1:32:30
Speaker 1: But the two of you led with such kindness. But
1:32:33
Speaker 1: you also held my feet to the fire, like you
1:32:35
Speaker 1: don't let me give up on it, and you don't
1:32:39
Speaker 1: let me slack off. And I think in the in
1:32:43
Speaker 1: the years of everything supposing supposed to be easy and
1:32:46
Speaker 1: convenient and all of it. It's really nice to be challenged. Yeah,
1:32:50
Speaker 1: so thank you.
1:32:51
Speaker 4: We're so Natalie, so so thrilled to have you in
1:32:57
Speaker 4: both of our workshops and just in Script Club too, Yeah,
1:33:01
Speaker 4: and Script Club. And also just to say that while
1:33:06
Speaker 4: you were letting us hold your feet to the fire
1:33:09
Speaker 4: and kind of hold you in that space, you were
1:33:11
Speaker 4: also fucking consistently showing up. And I think we value
1:33:15
Speaker 4: and appreciate that so much. So thank you for coming
1:33:19
Speaker 4: to our workshops.
1:33:20
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, And yeah, we're grateful to you. And and
1:33:23
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know if you want this.
1:33:26
Speaker 3: You're writing like you're an example of someone that's like
1:33:30
Speaker 3: putting like writing. I don't know if you're literally writing
1:33:33
Speaker 3: every day, but I can feel like it feels like
1:33:35
Speaker 3: you are. And I can see your growth as a writer.
1:33:38
Speaker 3: It's incredible and it's just like gets better every time
1:33:41
Speaker 3: I see you or you turn something in, Like I'm
1:33:43
Speaker 3: just amazed at your own evolution as a writer. So yeah,
1:33:47
Speaker 3: I think you're a proof of like a hard working
1:33:49
Speaker 3: artist honestly.
1:33:50
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:33:52
Speaker 1: Wow, Well now tell everyone where they get to be
1:33:56
Speaker 1: smart and learn things?
1:33:58
Speaker 4: Oh gosh, Okay, so so Conna and I created another workshop.
1:34:02
Speaker 4: It's called Where's the Humanity? And that is a character
1:34:07
Speaker 4: intensive workshop. It's basically showing you, teaching you, helping you
1:34:14
Speaker 4: to make your characters more human and whole, as opposed
1:34:18
Speaker 4: to one dimensional or serving a purpose only in your script.
1:34:25
Speaker 4: The workshop that you were talking about that you took
1:34:27
Speaker 4: flipping the Script is a workshop that we have also
1:34:30
Speaker 4: wanted to run again. We really enjoyed that workshop immensely.
1:34:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, that covers more of like our foundation, what we
1:34:39
Speaker 2: believe our foundations of screenwriting and storytelling. But we hopefully
1:34:43
Speaker 2: you heard it in the pocket. We think a little
1:34:45
Speaker 2: different than story than i'd say the average screenwriting one
1:34:48
Speaker 2: on one class where yeah, we're holding you to like
1:34:51
Speaker 2: really break your story and make it personal and yeah
1:34:56
Speaker 2: see the bigger picture, I would say, yeah. Yeah.
1:34:58
Speaker 4: Individually, as facilitators are, our approach is quite different than
1:35:03
Speaker 4: most of the workshops you would take for screenwriting. And
1:35:07
Speaker 4: so when we come together it's it's also if you
1:35:10
Speaker 4: take a workshop with me and you take a workshop
1:35:12
Speaker 4: with Kna, they are very different. And that's amazing because
1:35:16
Speaker 4: then when we get to.
1:35:17
Speaker 2: Be that special new thing.
1:35:19
Speaker 4: Yeah special Third Conna has a kinda has a certain
1:35:22
Speaker 4: vibe and I have a certain vibe. And some of
1:35:24
Speaker 4: the things really land. Some of the things Kana uses
1:35:26
Speaker 4: really land with people, and some of the things I
1:35:28
Speaker 4: use land with people. And I think, yeah, is what
1:35:31
Speaker 4: teaming up really does for us.
1:35:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, and also.
1:35:35
Speaker 4: I just think we have such a good time creating
1:35:38
Speaker 4: creating these workshops. Every time we get on a call,
1:35:40
Speaker 4: we're like, what if we did I'm buzzing, Yeah, yeah.
1:35:45
Speaker 2: So, yeah, we've got workshops coming up.
1:35:46
Speaker 4: You can go to our websites, Minds Breakout, Sash dot com, Kana.
1:35:51
Speaker 3: Is Kana Felix dot com, and then there's a workshop page,
1:35:56
Speaker 3: or you can follow. Instagram is also good because I
1:35:58
Speaker 3: will both market workshops and script Club, which is a
1:36:03
Speaker 3: book club for reading screenplays online. I didn't even define
1:36:07
Speaker 3: it in the beginning, but that's on my Instagram at
1:36:12
Speaker 3: Kanna has No Chill, k a Na has No Chill.
1:36:19
Speaker 1: It's a great and it'll all be linked in.
1:36:24
Speaker 5: Age and then we both, yeah, work one on one
1:36:28
Speaker 5: with writers if people are called to that where yeah,
1:36:32
Speaker 5: you get a good chunk of time with you know, whoever,
1:36:35
Speaker 5: whoever's vibing with you.
1:36:36
Speaker 3: Based off our websites and stuff, and we will like
1:36:40
Speaker 3: help you. I mean it's all different things like develop story, breakstory,
1:36:45
Speaker 3: like give notes on something you've already written. At least
1:36:47
Speaker 3: that's what usually my clients need. Yeah, so all things story.
1:36:54
Speaker 4: And we've both been doing it for a long time.
1:36:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we love yeah, we love weird nerds for story,
1:37:00
Speaker 2: as you can tell.
1:37:05
Speaker 1: And Colerader's Patreon is currently where it's all at the
1:37:10
Speaker 1: blog the bonus episodes where I'm just like babbling about
1:37:14
Speaker 1: the things that I'm watching on TV. And that olympian
1:37:17
Speaker 1: who told the world that he cheated on his girlfriend
1:37:21
Speaker 1: to embarrass her. For a second, it was he's our
1:37:26
Speaker 1: misogynist of the moment. At least you have, you have,
1:37:36
Speaker 1: you have to sign up for the newsletter because you get, like,
1:37:39
Speaker 1: this year a misogynist of the moment. And I went
1:37:43
Speaker 1: and I called that olympian a moron to his face.
1:37:48
Speaker 1: So you met him and then no, I didn't meet
1:37:51
Speaker 1: him wild, but I was like, hey, moron. And then
1:37:55
Speaker 1: we like we try to celebrate like the gains of
1:38:00
Speaker 1: women and feminism. But this for February, uh, the newsletter
1:38:04
Speaker 1: paid tribute to Catherine O'Hara because she was one of
1:38:07
Speaker 1: the first comedic actresses that like my baby brain could recognize.
1:38:14
Speaker 1: But yeah, we we pay tribute. We we have a
1:38:18
Speaker 1: misogynist of the moment, and then uh, it's supposed to
1:38:22
Speaker 1: be like media that gives me hope with this. For February,
1:38:25
Speaker 1: I was like, how boring is Bridgerton and how often
1:38:28
Speaker 1: are you going to make me sit through that? But remember, toleraters,
1:38:34
Speaker 1: you don't have to smile through anything you're tolerating, including
1:38:39
Speaker 1: feeling like there's no end to loneliness. In the technological age,
1:38:44
Speaker 1: smiles are for joy.
1:39:00
Speaker 2: He noticed the name of