Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / More High Conflict Questions Answered: Self-Discovery, Court Battles & Family Dynamics
Transcript
- Speaker 1 (00:05): Welcome to us all Your Fault on True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those involving high conflict personalities. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host, bill Eddie. Speaker 2 (00:22): Hi everybody. Speaker 1 (00:22): We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California where we focus on training, consulting, coaching classes, and educational programs and methods, all to do with high conflict. And since 2008 today, we are going to do another asked and answered session, which is where we'll answer your questions. Thank you for sending those in and if you do have questions, we'd love to answer them for you. So send them to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or on our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast where you'll also find all the show notes and links. Alright, so Bill, we have increased our listenership significantly the last few months and listeners, if you're new, we love having you here and we'd love to hear from you. What do you want to hear about? What questions do you have? It's a little bit of a different topic for many and what we hear from a lot of people is that it's kind of a mind blowing moment for them to understand that there's a real reason behind some of the soured relationships they've had and some of the behaviors they've experienced in relationships. Speaker 1 (01:39): So let us know what you'd like to hear about. We would like to do a series in 2025 on dating relationships and how to sort of spot this and what you should do and how you should do it if you are potentially in a romantic relationship with someone who has high conflict patterns. We're also going to do a series on the workplace, which we'll be starting next week. So ask us questions about anything we've been getting questions about elder abuse, about financial abuse, all kinds of things. So you name it, if we know the answer we'll do the best we can. If we don't, we'll tell you, but we usually try to have a lot of resources and things available as well. Alright, so let's dive in, bill. The first question is one that we've probably talked about before, but it comes from the other side of high conflict where everything we do at High Conflict Institute is to help those who may have a high conflict personality succeed more in life really because of those around that individual learning the skills that they need to communicate with this person in a more successful way and help them learn to deescalate and to help the other person problem solve. Speaker 1 (03:04): And in so doing it I believe makes our world more inclusive. We can help people who struggle often in our systems, in our programs, in our processes, in relationships. So this is kind of that missing piece, puzzle piece of what to do when we don't know what to do when we're faced with very escalated emotions and with a lot of blame and we feel stuck or we're just angry about it or we're worn out or we exhausted. But what about the person who sort of identifies that, hey, I think I have some of these behaviors and that's where this question comes from. What do you suggest for the person who realizes they have perhaps a high conflict personality and what resources do we have here at HCI for those people who realize it about themselves? And what do you suggest the first thing is that they should do and the first steps to healing? It's interesting because I just did a training recently for professionals and one wrote to me afterwards and said, Hey, I'm one of those people and I would love to have some help to understand how to get better, how to heal and how to modify my behaviors. So it's kind of exciting to see that there are people who understand that all of this work is meant to help and that they themselves can get that help. So I have a few thoughts on this, but what are your thoughts, bill? What is that first step to healing? Speaker 2 (04:41): I think awareness really is, and that's one of the big differences I think between most people and people with personality disorders is self-awareness. Awareness of their own patterns of behavior and the impact they have on others. And so we talk about high conflict personalities, maybe half have a personality disorder and half don't. And I'd say majority of high conflict people lack the self-awareness. But with education today, hopefully with our program and others, people are starting to realize maybe I do have some high conflict behavior and I want to change it. And so this self-awareness is really the first step. But then finding out what resources there are, reading books coming to places like we have two programs that address people around a high conflict person and a high conflict person. One is the new ways for families counseling and coaching method for people going through divorce. Speaker 2 (05:57): And we ask for judges to order both parents to go through it. So if one or the other or both are high conflict, they'll learn some helpful skills. Likewise, in the workplace there are new ways for work. Coaching is something that can be taken by employees who maybe they've been told you're a high conflict employee and if you don't straighten out some of your conflict behavior, you may lose your job. So we kind of have those aspects of things. But I know you've been thinking about developing a specific program for people who self-identify as high conflict to help them gain the kind of skills we teach everybody. Speaker 1 (06:41): And some have been taking my conflict influencer class that I teach as a live group class, it's been truly gratifying to see people saying, wow, I realize that I do some of this. Maybe I'm a little too much all or nothing, or maybe I blame too quickly. So they're having that self-awareness, which is the best news of all. Speaker 1 (07:05): I think most people truly do have some, maybe not most, let's say half. We may be a little too defensive or a little too all or nothing. And it all comes from how you were raised, maybe some genetics, things like that. So no blame on it. And I think it's just that awareness. Once you see that in yourself, then you go, okay, that means I can do some fixing here, some improvement. So I would say don't be afraid, first of all that you need to make improvements. I think a lot of people feel some shame and fear around that Speaker 2 (07:47): We all can make improvements. We're constantly learning. And I think that's part of human beings and part of personality is most people are always working a little bit on themselves. And part of why personality disorders have an enduring pattern of behaviors, they can't see their part and problems so they don't work on their part and problems. They work on blaming others in hopes that'll make their life better. But vast majority of people, I'd say 80 to 90% of people are constantly wondering, oh, should I have done that? Should I have said something different? What can I do different next time? And that's the big difference between people with high conflict personalities and people that once you start looking at yourself, you start having more empathy, you start calming down the all or nothings. So this is part of our human potential and people are happier when they see what they can do different because then you can make in relationships from your end. And I've always believed that self blamers were happier people than blamers because self blamers keep trying to change what they're doing and find success. Other blamers feel helpless in the world. It's like things just happen to me, there's nothing I can do. And when you think that way, that's a depressing thought. There's nothing you can do. Your life is not going to no chance at improvement. So thinking about improving yourself is very healthy thing to do. Speaker 1 (09:31): So I just jotted down a short list of things that maybe you can ask yourself, right? Check yourself. If you have a very strong feeling about sort of an ordinary event, maybe check with other friends or family or colleagues. Would you be as upset about this event as I am and get weigh in against what other people might be experiencing in a similar situation. And if you realize that your emotions are really strong and may be out of bounds about that situation, okay, time to check myself and think about, then it's a quick flip to okay, what do I do now? What am I going to do about it? So you don't get stuck in that depressive thought of there's nothing I can do, this is just how I am not a truth is my automatic first thought, a blaming thought when the car door slams and it's too loud and someone else is around is my first thought to blame them even though it's not their fault. Speaker 1 (10:33): So you stop and think about am I trying to belittle someone in this conversation? Am I trying to put them down? Ask yourself questions. Have I considered that my brain might be giving me false information about what the other person is saying or about their intentions? So most of this really is about checking yourself and then figuring out what to do. So am I complaining this is a big one. Am I complaining, okay, I'm a complaint. What do I do about it? How do I change that? Okay, so now I'm going to look for a solution instead. Or maybe I don't need to complain. Maybe I need to keep my mouth shut. So there's what to do. Am I being defensive? Okay, maybe I'm being defensive or really check yourself. Then ask yourself, Hey, what do I do about it? Am I being uncooperative? Do I feel like yelling or arguing? Speaker 1 (11:31): If the answers are yes, then what should I do about it? Okay, I'm going to do the opposite. I'm going to manage my emotions instead of have strong unmanaged emotions. I'm going to have a moderate behavior instead of an extreme behavior. And talk to someone about extreme behaviors. Ask them if that thing that you are planning to do, filing the lawsuit is an seems to be an extreme behavior. And do my needs come before everyone else's? Am I only thinking about myself? So those are some thoughts I have. And I mean our typical usual for everyone is when you email or text Biff, it always biff. If you have a complaint about something, use a proposal and ask questions instead of just arguing. So those are just some ways to get started. How about you Bill? Speaker 2 (12:26): Totally agree. And I think the theme there is checking yourself and that self-awareness is checking yourself. And two parts that I liked about what you were saying, one is check yourself to see am I being a problem? And the other is what can I do? And those two really go together and oh, I just wanted to define Biff for people that haven't heard us before, Biff is brief, informative, friendly, and firm communications primarily in writing like emails and texts, but also can be verbal and it helps kind of restrain some of the more upset impulses that we may have. And so when people are looking at what can I do different? These are some of the things to try, like Megan was saying, is always think what can I do different next time? I might be surprised. Speaker 1 (13:26): Good. Alright, well we hope that's helpful and we will be announcing here in the next few weeks about a course we're going to have for people who want have this very question, what do I do if I have some high conflict behaviors and make that announcement here on the podcast when that is available. So let's move on to the next question, bill, and then we'll take a break and finish with our final question. This is from someone who says, I have a client whose ex-wife is creating chaos in his life and with the children ages 13, 10, and eight, he has to self represent because he could no longer afford the legal costs of having an attorney. His ex-wife is defined court orders and making allegations about my client allegations of being a child molester to schools coaches and on social media including his business reviews. How can I help him cope? Speaker 2 (14:20): Well, that's a tough one. That's a tough one. Like I've said before, it's a small percent that make allegations of child sexual abuse and they need to get figured out because that does happen. It also doesn't happen. It really depends on the facts of the case. The concerning thing I find because as a clinical social worker who became a family lawyer, a lot of the child sexual abuse cases I've been involved with are allegations. People are misreading the child's behavior or intentionally spreading rumors and such that are false. And one of my concerns is when someone eagerly tells the world that their ex is a child molester, that raises a lot of antenna for me because a lot of real cases I've had the parent, usually the mother is very ashamed and embarrassed that her ex is engaging in behavior like this and is not at all wanting to broadcast it and is trying to keep it private. Speaker 2 (15:27): And that's part of the problem is it hasn't come out. But let me go cut to the chase. I guess if someone's self representing, I recommend they read my book splitting because I explain in their allegations, true allegations of child abuse, domestic violence, alienation and false allegations of child abuse, domestic violence and alienation and others, false allegations of substance abuse, et cetera. The best way I believe to present that if you're representing yourself is to identify the three biggest patterns of behavior that are concerning of the other parent that's affecting the parenting plan. There's three biggest concerns and then give your strongest examples of each of these. So your organize your information under these three headings so that the court can really focus because people say there's these 20 things that are going wrong, it doesn't stick. But if you have three things that's more sticky that like undermining my relationship with my child, and here's three of the worst examples of that or lying to professionals and the court, and here's three of the worst examples of that or not following doctor's orders and healthcare treatments, et cetera. Speaker 2 (17:00): These are common things, but there may be something else in your particular case. So think of the three and address that and have your examples fit within those so you can say over and over again, here's another example of undermining my relationship with my child, or another example of lying to professionals and the court so that that concept really gets through because when you deal with high conflict, people on the other side, they tend to keep it simple, emotional and repetitive and it's often not accurate, not true. So you want to make sure you keep it simple, repetitive with a touch of emotion, don't look emotional, you want to look informative and reasonable and that it's true and you have to be careful that it's true. If you exaggerate or make up stuff, you're going to lose the court and perhaps rightfully so. That's what I'd recommend. Speaker 1 (18:02): All right, thank you Bill. We'll put that link to the splitting book in the show notes and now we're going to take a quick break. We'll be back in a minute to talk about questions around elderly parents. We'll be right back. Alright, we're back. We have another question. Bill. 18 years ago, my nearly 60, that's six zero, 60-year-old brother moved back in with my parents after his wife served him with a restraining order because of his abusive behavior. My parents tried to get him to leave multiple times, but he wouldn't budge. My father died halfway through all of this and for a couple of years we all thought it was great that someone was there for our mom. However, that didn't last long. Finally, after ruining many years of family gatherings and destroying relationships within our family, he went too far and threatened my mother. Speaker 1 (19:04): She went to the police and had him removed with a temporary restraining order. She's still struggling with her decision and believes it is her fault somehow I find this very hard to take at times and struggle to find neutral ways to support her. He blames us for basically everything and acts like we owe him for whatever we've supposedly done. The even worst part is that he is now creating a rift between my mother and her sister over this matter. The sisters traveled together, spent several winters on vacation together and until very recently, we're very close. Now the sister has cut off communication with my mom. My question is, what advice would you give her to get through this situation? Is there any way to get through to the sister who clearly has only one side of the story and might be beefing about other unknown stuff? It's very sticky and yes, bill, these situations are sticky because it's so hard to, you want to prove yourself, you want to prove your side, and you're being so falsely maligned and it does ruin relationships. So what do you say? Speaker 2 (20:13): Yeah, well, it's, first of all, it's very sad because this happens to every age group and every culture, country, economic status, et cetera. In many ways I think of this about as similar to alcoholism and addiction where 50 years ago people didn't understand those just said he doesn't have willpower or things like that, or she doesn't. And the more people learn about patterns of behavior, the more they learn it's not all their fault. At the risk of promoting books, my temptation is to suggest that she read the book. It's all your fault because it explains these personality patterns and things you can do and include some family examples. This is not that unusual. People become what we call negative advocates for high conflict people. And it may be that the mother's sister has absorbed the brothers, and it's hard to keep track here, but the brothers behavior, a negative advocate absorbs the emotions of a high conflict person, but often is uninformed or have very distorted information. Speaker 2 (21:42): And because of that, they become emotionally opposed to people that are reasonable. They've absorbed the fear, the anger, and has something to do with the amygdala and mirror neurons and such that emotions are contagious. And it sounds like the mother's sister has absorbed the person's brother who wrote in with the question his emotions, and he sounds like he's somewhat out of control. He is had restraining orders against him. The mother had to have him leave all of that. So understanding how negative advocacy works is explained in the It's all your fault book. And frankly, books are a cheap and easy way to get a lot of information. And fortunately we have a bunch of them kind of for different purposes. And so it's all your fault addresses a broad range, whereas the splitting book I mentioned earlier is specific to people going through divorce. So I think it's all your fault book might open her eyes and it also has a cartoon that goes with each chapter so you can get sometimes a little chuckle out of Speaker 1 (22:56): It. Yeah, it's interesting. I think this concept of the negative advocate, I see it as the cheerleader or sometimes the whole cheerleading squad or team that believes those stories that are being told. And like you said, they absorb those emotions. And then layered on that is when the situation is around an elderly person. And so your empathy or protective quotient goes up as well. And on top of being a negative advocate, you become a super negative advocate because how could they do this to an elderly person? How dare they, right? And so it almost gives you one step further into the abyss and being overprotective the wrong information, Speaker 2 (23:47): High conflict people often play the victim and play on the heartstrings of people that really do want to help and that's why they're susceptible to becoming negative advocates. But I also want to add that the mother may want to send a friendly note from time to time to her sister, so she's not arguing the case, but just like, Hey, I was thinking of you the other day and thought you might like this. A picture or an idea, a tip and a cookbook or whatever. It's that friendly kind of superficial connection sometime is a way to reconnect with someone who's emotionally rejected you as a high conflict person or a negative advocate for a high conflict person. Speaker 1 (24:41): And I would hope that, I guess the hope is always that the sister in this case recalls the fond memories and the good relationship if they had a good relationship and realizes maybe time of life. It's not the time of life to cut relationships off, but rather to embrace them. But it depends on every situation. Now, the other issue that comes up often in this type of case is let's say the person who wrote this question would like to go and talk to his or her aunt about this, the mother's sister, and say, here's the real story. I've seen that backfire so many times, bill, because they just don't want to believe it. And it may be professionals, let's say the mother, not in this situation, but in some situations the mother might be under the care, physical care, medical care of that son, and he's perhaps being neglectful or abusive and you can't even get professionals to believe it because the high conflict individual is covering up so greatly and or lying so much. So it's very hard to get this information across to people outside of the circle and get them to believe it. I find it one of the most challenging things that people have to deal with. Speaker 2 (26:03): I agree. And my suggestion is that you say something like, there's another side to this story and if you'd like to hear it, let me know. Or can I tell you something you may not be aware of? That's a small piece of this so that it's a friendly, gentle communication so that you don't push them away. And I think of the sister of a woman in a relationship with domestic violence. Perpetrator says, he's not good for you, but he loves me and I love him. Well, he's not good for you. I don't want to hear about that. And so if you're the sister in that kind of case, say, well, if you want to talk, I always love you. I'm always available and I'm willing to change the subject right now so that you keep your connection going even though you can't say everything you wish you could say. Sometimes people sometimes just aren't ready to hear, but just knowing there's another point of view, and I'd like to fill you in someday, Speaker 1 (27:13): And it's up to you. I think what you said there, bill, is really, really important because it's tempting to just want to rush out with this story, but here's all the things that have happened. You need to know the other side. And if you don't say, and I'm happy to share it with you when you ask me. Right? I think that's one of the most important things you can do. I've also seen some who will say, I mean this is very common as we have talked about a lot, that it's seen by outsiders as a conflict between two people instead of one high conflict individual that is really causing all of this chaos. And so to try to explain that can be very challenging as well. And a lot of times that person sees themselves, some of them see themselves as the conflict expert, and I'm going to get these two to the table and get them to hash it out. I'm just going to get them to talk. Let's go on a family vacation together. Right? Speaker 2 (28:06): Right. Speaker 1 (28:07): Something like that. And they actually end up kind of sabotaging it further, or it just will typically end in no resolution at the best. Speaker 2 (28:18): And that's such an important point is a lot of high conflict cases are really one person who's high conflict and another person is their target of blame and trying to be reasonable and walk on eggshells and everything. And people assume it's two equal conflict purveyors and many cases it's not. I think of domestic violence, I think of false allegations, all of that. So it's really important people keep an open mind and not make that assumption. There's one other thing I want to make sure I get in here before we close, and that is always consult with a professional in your area, in your geographical area. Somebody nearby a therapist might be really helpful for the mother. In this case we've been talking about who's lost the connection with her sister, and a therapist might be able to talk through ways to reach out or even invite her to come to a therapy session. Likewise, in the other case earlier today, person representing himself really should consult with at least a family lawyer in his area to get suggestions and tips for how to handle his case. So everything we say is general. We're not diagnosing people. We don't know all the facts of what's going on. So these are general principles and we encourage people to get professional help near where you live. That's the best way to go. Speaker 1 (29:57): Best way to go read the books and do your research, do your due diligence because not everyone understands these dynamics and patterns of behavior. So the more you read, keep an open mind and use your critical thinking. So thank you for sending in these questions and for listening today as well. Next week, we're going to shift into some episodes on workplace from different perspectives within the workplace, from hr, from employee relations, from leadership, from employees, from all different aspects, and I think you'll really enjoy it. In the meantime, send your questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast. Until next time, keep learning and practicing. Be kind to yourself and others while we all try to keep the conflict small and find the missing piece. It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show notes and transcripts at True story fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.