Latest / ADHD with Confidence | Overcome Anxiety & Self-Doubt, Christian ADHD Coach, ADHD in Women / 184 // Generational Trauma and ADHD Nervous System Regulation, with Leanna Hunt

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184 // Generational Trauma and ADHD Nervous System Regulation, with Leanna Hunt · ADHD with Confidence | Overcome Anxiety & Self-Doubt, Christian ADHD Coach, ADHD in Women

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The 30-day ADHD confidence course will be launching in January of 2027.
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Go to ADHDwithconfidence.com forward slash ADHD course to make sure that you
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get all of the information you need.
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All right, let's get started into today's episode. Hey friends,
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welcome to the ADHD with confidence podcast. I'm your host, Kelsey Spronk.
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And today I'm joined by Liana Hunt. She's an associate clinical mental health
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counselor and a certified performance coach.
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And today she's going to come to talk to us about how we can create safety in
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our nervous system. And I can't wait. Liana, thanks for being here today.
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Hey, Kelsey and everybody listening. I'm so excited to be here.
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I've been looking forward to this. I don't know what, several months now.
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Yes, it has been a while, but we are here today. I'm sorry. I'm excited. Yay.
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So to give our audience just a little bit of a taste, I know for those of us
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with ADHD, we kind of like knowing what the end goal is.
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So some of the stuff that you and I had talked about here before this conversation,
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was going through essentially talking about the purpose of the nervous system,
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how we can create safety,
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what kind of patterns and inherited trauma and things like that are contributing
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to a dysregulated nervous system, and then you have a framework that you're
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also going to share with us to be able to create that safety.
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So I just want to give them kind of that overall picture, and then we can start
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talking about the pieces.
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So can you start us off by talking about, we've heard a lot about the nervous
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system lately. It's a bit of
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a buzzword in a good way, but what is the purpose of our nervous system?
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That's a really good question and a really good place to start.
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And I think the biggest thing that I want anyone to leave with today is knowing
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that your nervous system's job is to protect you.
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Its job is to keep you safe. It is assessing safety, you guys,
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without us even realizing it, it's assessing safety all day long.
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And when I talk about assessing safety, sometimes we just think,
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oh, maybe from actual physical harm or different types of abuse,
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right? No, I'm talking about just safety in the body, that felt sense of safety.
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Whether you guys know it or not, our bodies know when we feel safe and when we don't feel safe.
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Can I ask, and I like the way that you summed that up so nicely,
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of that felt sense of safety.
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Now, I imagine it's more complex than that. There are different pieces from
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our childhood, from our families of origin, and our own families.
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Would that still apply? Let's just say an example for me with my kids.
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My kids are three, five, and seven, and I have those maternal instincts to take
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care of them and put their needs first.
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Is my nervous system fighting to have my needs met over my kids' needs?
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That's such a good question. And it really depends, Kelsey, so much on what
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your childhood was like.
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When we start looking at the family system, especially with things like ADHD
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showing up, maybe even later as adults, really trying to start to get curious
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about, OK, what was safety like for me as a child?
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And when I say this, I want you guys to really hear me. I am not saying that
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you had a quote unquote bad childhood.
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I am not saying your parents were bad human beings or harmed you.
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And for some of you, that actually was your reality. And I want you to know
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that this is even more important and critical. Sorry.
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For those of you that have dealt with actual abuse, I see that in my clinical work a lot.
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So first of all, I just want to say that that is a very real thing.
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And some of you, even as adults, are still living in abusive situations.
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So I just want to say my heart is very tender, as you can hear in my voice, for those of you.
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But there was a lot of us that we would look back and be like, I had a good childhood.
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My parents were married, or even if it was a single parent, my mom did amazing,
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right? She worked hard. She played with us. We had, I feel like I had my basic needs met.
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Those things can be true. And we're going to talk a lot about and,
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okay? And so it reminds me if I lose my own train of thought to come back to
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the power of and towards the end.
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So we can have looked at all these things consciously and said,
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well, on paper, it looks like this great childhood.
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And that doesn't mean that our body felt safe.
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So if we had to and just a quick callback if you guys have not listened to Kelsey's
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episode I think it was 169 with Dr. Rowe is that right I think so if I remember.
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Back in August, she broke down the nervous system in beautiful ways that I am
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not going to take time to go into because everything she said,
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I was like, this is how I teach it.
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So if you guys did not listen to that and you're trying to wonder what I'm talking
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about because I'm going to jump in, please, please, please go back and listen to Dr.
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Rose's episode with Kelsey back in August. But the nervous system is always
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preparing to do something.
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It's preparing to fight, to fly away, to freeze. and now we have that fourth
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layer in the nervous system is appeasement.
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It's known by the world, you guys might know it as fawn, but I love Deb Dana.
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She's a therapist and one of the leaders in polyvagal work in her books.
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She talks about it more that fawn is actually an appeasement.
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It's that people pleasing, right?
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So like what you said, Kelsey, sometimes why it is so hard as a mom to put your
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needs first is because it didn't
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feel like it was okay for you to do that at some point in your life.
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And oftentimes we see our nervous system responses as adults showing up because
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as children, our nervous system became more hypervigilant to have to react to
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those different nervous system states that I just mentioned.
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Does that make sense? Or let me know what questions you have about that.
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It does make sense. My mind is, excuse me, starting to come up with more questions now.
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I'm trying to get like bring all those little thought squirrels.
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Jumping away or whatever. But thinking about even what's that word? Birth order.
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Totally. Border until daughter. And I know I've talked to Katie McKenna as well
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about emotional trauma in childhood and narcissistic parents and things like
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that. And what's the word? Parentification.
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And so some of those roles that we get put into, and I'm imagining that can
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probably also play a role in how we act as adults.
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It's just my sister and I in recent family drama earlier this year,
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it was really interesting to see the sympathetic nervous system and how that showed up.
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There was the one immediate fight, actually both of them fight,
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and then I'm the youngest of the three girls, and mine is flight immediately. Just, I'm gone.
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I am out of there as fast as I can. That is me too, by the way.
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So welcome to your fellow flight member.
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There we go. All of a sudden we're just silent here. We both just leave the
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chat, right? But I thought it was interesting, too.
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Katie McKenna had brought up that in our parenting, flight can look like doing
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everything for our kids.
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Overproductivity is what I call it. Yes. And I mean, when you say overproductivity,
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not a new light bulb moment for every other area of my life.
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But I think there's a lot of light bulbs today.
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But I think just that sense of understanding and the fact that,
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like you said, our nervous system is there to protect us, to keep us safe,
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but that there can be so many different layers that we're not even aware of
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when you say that over productivity.
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No wonder I reach burnout so often in my life, right? Yeah.
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Coming back to this then, we want to create that sense of safety.
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How does our nervous system end up getting so dysregulated? What are some of
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the pieces that contribute to that?
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It's a really good question, too. I love all your questions, by the way.
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I think the biggest thing is to realize, think about impact over time.
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It's not like one day we just wake up as this adult mom and we're like,
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oh, my gosh, I am so dysregulated. And we're only using that word now because
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it's all over the place. We weren't saying this 20 years ago, right?
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I don't know what you're saying. Maybe I'm so like, I'm so overwhelmed.
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It was probably like a really big thing. I remember my mom saying, right?
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Right. So we want to think about it over time, because, again,
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even what you just even said about birth order with your sisters,
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we take on different roles in our family system.
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And I really, when I work with clients, I really like them to start to get curious
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about their family history.
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We're in this really interesting period of time where we have a lot of family
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systems breaking up, going no contact and all of that. And, yes,
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there's very specific reasons for that, especially when there's harm and abuse
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and people aren't willing to take ownership of their stuff.
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And we are in harmful situations. I get that. But...
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I think my goal in my clinical work is to see, is there room for us to work
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on ourself and start to get curious about our family system and what they've
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been through? And could healing be possible if I do my own work first?
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And so when we start to get curious with our family system, even in the last
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150 years, we can see so many things.
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We can see migration to different countries, right? We can see the impact in
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the U.S. on the Great Depression.
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I mean, with the Great Depression, world wars, pandemics and sicknesses,
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we can see how these things impacted the nervous systems of our ancestors.
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And survival looked different then.
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Even, you know, 100 years ago, there wasn't, we didn't have the same types of
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homes. We didn't have cell phones. We didn't have technology.
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Food sourcing was different, right? Safety was actually different.
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And so a lot of these things that our relatives and ancestors weren't able to
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repair isn't because they were bad. It was because their lives were at such
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a different level of survival than ours are now.
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And so now with love and compassion, which I believe is where we start,
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we can start to look at our family system and really try to get curious about,
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I wonder what I am carrying based on what maybe hasn't been healed in my family system.
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And first looking at it through this lens of oh my gosh look at what was done
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before me to get me to where I am also does that make sense Kelsey.
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Sorry that was a big one no that's good I think that piece of understanding that,
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the present society and world and culture that we live in today is not the same
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as it was before but it's also being affected by what was before I wanted some clarification though,
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talking about generational trauma,
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and then inherited survival patterns how does that work i've heard i've heard
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about generational trauma can that be.
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How do I say this? Can that simply be passed on because that was something that
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they dealt with? Or is it because of how they parent you as a result of the
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trauma? How does that end up getting passed on?
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I think it's a combination. I think it's, if we just think about our parents,
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which when we can look at our grandparents, so much about our parents' experience
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makes so much sense, right?
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So if we look at, if I look at my grandparents and what they endured,
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it makes a lot of sense for me with my dad. My dad was very strict with me.
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I was always afraid of him, not in a physical sense, but more like the emotional intensity he carried.
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And as I started to look at my family system, my dad passed away January of 2025 from melanoma.
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And we were at a point of trying to repair a relationship. He was only 68.
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And it's actually been since then that I have really dove in.
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I started reading his journals that I never got to read when he was alive from
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a time that he was 19. So I'll just use this as an example. I was so afraid
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of my dad as a child and his perfectionism and his love.
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The demands of what he expected of me. And that's where I got a lot of that
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people pleasing. It was a mix of that appeasement and flight.
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I was like, I'm checking out of here and I need to do everything to please you.
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And that was more important than taking care of me.
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So I learned that from this very strict father. Maybe some of you guys can relate.
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But as I started reading his journals from when he was 19, he talked all about
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his nervousness is what he called it. Anxiety wasn't the thing in the 70s, as far as I know.
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So when I know when he was writing about his nervousness, that to me is the
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word anxiety. And he, sorry guys, he had so much of his own lack of self-worth.
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And I know that was because of how he was parented by my grandpa,
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who was so strict. But the way my grandpa was raised was like,
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he was an only child. He had to practice the piano like five hours a day.
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What was expected of him and his work ethic literally had to be like perfection
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when we look at that and when he was raised.
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So as he raised my dad, and my dad was the youngest child, my dad had all this
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placed on him and that showed up in his parenting and he didn't know how to talk about it.
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And so I've had to piece all these things together since he passed away.
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And it's just been so mind blowing because I'm like, wow, what would that have
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been like, dad, if you could have talked to me and told me that you felt nervous too,
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that you lacked self-confidence and self-worth and that showed up to me as this
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really strict, demanding father.
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And so that's now why this work is so important to me because I help other families
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be able to start looking so curiously at like, instead of just saying,
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oh, my dad is this bad person. I would never say that now.
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I'm saying like, oh my gosh, he carried like, he carried so much pain and it
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showed up in really rigid parenting, unfortunately.
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And now I'm having to like repair all of this when he's not here.
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And I totally believe we can do that. But I'm like, what would that have been
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like if we could have talked about this?
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When he was still alive. And I will never know that in this lifetime.
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Sorry.
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You're opening boxes that I thought I had stored away in the basement,
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you know? In the basement. We all have those basements.
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Those are here. First of all, I'm so sorry to hear about your dad passing away.
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I'm like, what you're bringing up about, I'm like, my dad passed away in March
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of this year. Oh, I'm sorry.
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So I bring up all the feels. I
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think I haven't processed the concept of talking to him about that stuff.
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But what you're saying as far as what they experienced, just even in this last
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year, understanding from my own father, some of the abuse from his childhood
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that we talked to his sisters about had happened. Yeah.
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The way it turned for him was he was a flight, which now, yeah,
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light bulb moment. He would give us the silent treatment and walk away for a
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few days because he just couldn't handle it. So he'd like would be his kind of response.
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But I think there's been a lot of understanding of he wanted to do a good job.
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And something he did do a good job of was he would say, have I told you yet today?
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And he would either say, I love you or I'm proud of you. And it was one of the
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dearest things to my heart.
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One of the things I miss the most about him, but understanding that he did the
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best that he could, but still struggled so much with, you know,
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emotional regulation and like these outbursts and some of these responses and stuff.
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So bringing this now to understanding what we can do about it we look at,
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the generational trauma inherited survival patterns and I imagine that understanding
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then that curiosity piece is helpful and that awareness huge we have to start
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let's just say that because we have to start with awareness we have to start with that,
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what is the next piece so then let's just say for example so I,
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I will be vulnerable here and say that with my kids I.
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I can explode quite quickly with frustration with them and this has been especially difficult lately,
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and I don't know you know is this something that has to do with my nervous system
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is this learned patterns you know and then there's that automatic negative inner
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critic saying no it's because you're a terrible person you know Which I know that part not to be true.
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But how do we how do we then take that awareness and that knowledge of what
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happened before for our parents and our grandparents and our ancestors and now
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look at it and start to grow and make changes?
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That's a really good question. It's a big question. So we'll totally go into
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that. First, I want to say if you guys are interested in reading about the impact
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of generational trauma, I would suggest reading It Didn't Start With You by Mark Wallen.
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That is a really, really powerful, powerful book. And he has a great process
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of how you can start looking at your family timeline and your genealogy with
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compassion and awareness, but also with the intent of wanting to create change
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for yourself. So I want to say that first.
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Also, if you're like, I don't believe in generational trauma, I totally get that.
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I remember first time I asked a professor when I went back to grad school for
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some books on generational trauma, and he told me he didn't believe that that
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existed. So then I was like, okay, I got to go out and look myself. So Google epigenetics.
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Look up epigenetics so you guys can see what's happening in research and that
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our genes are changing and adapting over time based on our environments and
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stress and trauma, okay?
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So, so many of the things we are dealing with, we can actually see in the DNA expression.
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So Google epigenetics, ask AI to help break it down for you very,
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very, very simply and help teach you about how epigenetics could play into your
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nervous system, if that makes sense.
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So those are two things, really, really helpful pieces. If you're like,
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Aliana, I don't know if I agree with you, which is fine.
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You don't have to agree with me for me to also say it's still happening.
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So do your own work with that. And then with that awareness,
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we can only start with ourself.
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Okay. We want to, if you're, especially like you, I think you said,
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Kelsey, maybe I want to fix my kids or help my kids before I allow myself to.
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To work on myself? Is that more so I guess I question sometimes whether there's
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that I can't think of a word right now, but kind of that fight between my nervous
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system wanting to take care of me when I'm feeling burned. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Versus, hey, my kids need something from me right now. And there's that tension between the two.
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Okay, got it. So that it goes back to the same thing. Yeah, we can't abandon
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motherhood when we're trying to work on ourself. But I want you guys to realize
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the intention of this work starts with you.
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It starts with you as your adult self or however old you are,
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wherever you are listening, to start to bring awareness to your own nervous
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system and how you create safety for you.
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You guys, the brain and the body are not going to change unless we experience safety in the body.
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Remember I said the felt sense of safety. So you can be in the kitchen cooking
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dinner, your phone's ringing, you're burning something. A kid is having a meltdown.
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They spilled milk or juice on the floor. Juice, I think, is worse. I hate sticky stuff.
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Right? Like all of that can be happening.
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And the goal is that in that moment, you're starting to bring awareness to your own nervous system.
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But you guys remember our reactions. Like when we yell, when we say things we
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don't mean, when we want to run away, Kelsey, like you and me,
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it's like, peace out. I am not a mom anymore today. I'm going to go sit in my
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car, which sometimes we actually need.
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Maybe we want to numb out and that's that freeze of that complete shutdown or
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that appeasement of like let me bypass everything that I need that's that appeasement
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so that you are taken care of,
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when we can start to notice that that is where we start because if we aren't
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aware of it we won't even know what we need in the moment,
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and nothing is wrong with you or anyone listening you're not broken.
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You are worthy and deserving of this process and these steps.
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But remember, the brain will not shift unless it feels safe.
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So a moment and a meltdown at dinnertime in your family system,
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your body might not feel safe, even though consciously no one is hurting you.
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Because when we think about the nervous system and that limbic part of our brain,
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that older part of our brain, thousands of years ago,
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when survival looked extremely different, cavemen, however far back that was, safety was so much more,
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we were so much more aware of it, right?
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There wasn't shelter, like we have houses, there weren't cars,
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there wasn't a grocery store, there wasn't Costco, there wasn't Amazon.
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There wasn't Instagram, like any of, there wasn't nervous system regulation apps.
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And so fight, flight, and that freeze are forms of helping keep us safe.
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And so, you guys, it shows up now in those moments in the kitchen,
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in traffic, in the conflict with your partner or your spouse,
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in the hard conversation with maybe one of your own parents, in grief, in grief.
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In too much laundry all over the floor,
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in those spills, in those breakdowns, the nervous system, again,
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if it's not feeling safe, remember, it's going to prepare to do one of those things to fight,
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which is that yelling, which is that trying to control, which sometimes we actually
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sometimes maybe will hit a child
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or we punch something or that flight of overproductivity or running away,
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or that freezing and that numbness and shutting down and wanting to maybe just,
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go into a scroll hole for several hours or that appeasement.
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Does that make like as far as where we are right now?
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Do you have any questions about that, Kelsey? No, no, no. That does make sense
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and very relatable as I look past the screen at you to my pile of laundry on my living room floor.
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But as far as you said in that moment, I'm burning dinner, the kids are fighting.
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This is very accurate, by the way. A lot of things are going on when my kids start screaming.
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That's the thing for me that will send me over the edge every time is really loud, shrill sounds.
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But I know even looking at my mom, if she's around my kids and they make a sudden
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loud sound, her reaction is full body, like, like just this huge, huge reaction.
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So I kind of grew up with that. And then that's how it ends up being for me.
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So you said the question of asking ourselves in that moment,
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the awareness of what do I need?
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Now, what do we do next? How do we create that sense of safety?
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Can we create it in that moment? Does it need to be created apart from when we're struggling?
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That's a really good question, too. First, let me touch on what happened,
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like what you said with your mom. So much of our nervous system states,
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you guys, and how we show up, especially like the whole...
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Monday night dinner scenario, right? Like so much of how we show up,
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our nervous system shows up what was modeled for us.
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And what did we learn about safety as children? So if you made a mistake,
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Kelsey, and your mom overreacted, did that increase your sense of fight or flight or freeze?
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So that is where we can see the connection so much, you guys,
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that when we're showing up in a moment of a meltdown on a Monday night during
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dinnertime, our nervous system isn't actually, there's not an actual threat
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like a predator coming in, right?
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Like we're not running from a tiger or a bear, but the nervous system still
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responds that way because what we have learned over time is that we started
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taking perceived threats,
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messing up as kids, not being perfect, not getting good grades,
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not pleasing our parents, making mistakes, maybe dating a boy that our parents didn't like.
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Maybe doing stupid things that weren't repaired properly, right?
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We got in a lot of trouble and there wasn't healthy repair.
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Over time, the nervous system starts to take perceived threats and drop them
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in the same category as actual threats.
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So that Monday night in the kitchen, in the brain, becomes comparable to having
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to run and fight an animal like a tiger or a bear like cavemen did does that,
24:44
Yeah, no, it actually does make sense. I was trying to stay completely focused
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here because you said something about, you know, if we date that boy,
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their parents don't approve of.
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You actually, no, you gave me this aha moment I've never really thought of was
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the fact that there was a lot of things I felt like my parents didn't approve of.
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Like, I didn't feel like I got a lot of affirmation for who I was necessarily.
25:07
So maybe it was for my accomplishments and then that's something that I bring,
25:12
into adulthood. But also, you're making me realize it was the opposite for me
25:16
as I felt like my mom didn't care so much about the character of the person.
25:20
She cared whether they were attractive or not.
25:23
And it's that essentially the point of telling this is that what you said earlier
25:28
about looking back at our childhoods and the way our parents raised us,
25:32
not with judgment, but with curiosity to say, how did that change,
25:38
the way that I perceive things now?
25:41
How does that change the things that appear to be valuable to me because my
25:47
parents affirmed those things? My parents approved of those things.
25:51
So anyways, that's a completely aside, but that was my aha moment there.
25:56
I love that. I love aha moments, by the way. Maybe you guys are listening or
25:59
having those and realizing, okay, this makes sense about my nervous system, right?
26:06
Like makes sense why i i didn't feel safe as a teenager and so how could i all
26:12
of a sudden just feel safe now i mean,
26:15
safety is something we have to work really really hard at and i think sometimes
26:20
that those adhd patterns and stuff not all the time i'm not gonna say i'm not
26:26
gonna say always or never,
26:29
by the way, I'm going to say that a lot of times what's happening is that those
26:36
ADHD tendencies are like increased
26:39
hypervigilance of the nervous system assessing threat and safety.
26:44
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, like you talked about before, that would have
26:48
been helpful for survival.
26:50
But at this point, when that is triggered by text notifications,
26:55
emails, I mean, when people don't have ADHD, I can tell by their surprised look
27:01
when I say I have 130 unread text messages on my phone.
27:05
But that's kind of a normal, it's a normal number for me. A lot of them,
27:10
you know, are those spam ones you don't bother opening. But those,
27:12
all these different things of our life that can cause that dysregulation and
27:17
that feeling of chaos and feeling unsafe.
27:20
How do we then bring ourselves to feeling safe? Can you talk about your four N's framework?
27:28
Let's do it. And also to answer that, part of the question that you had asked before is.
27:33
We want to try, and Dr. Rowe talked about this too, so again,
27:37
call back to that if you guys haven't listened, that we really want to start
27:40
practicing these things when
27:42
we're not just in that Monday evening dinner scenario with the kids, okay?
27:47
There's different parts of our brain, which I'm not going to go into,
27:49
but we have that emotional part of our brain, and then we have that logical part of our brain.
27:55
And that prefrontal cortex, it's right here in the forehead,
27:58
that logical part of the brain where that higher executive functioning is,
28:02
if we're feeling a sense of threat, again, like dinner time is comparable in
28:06
the brain to a saber-toothed tiger, that executive functioning,
28:10
logic, language, access to reasonable thinking, saying,
28:15
I should know what to do here, you guys, that actually goes out the window because
28:19
the emotional part of the brain becomes so big, it actually can't access that
28:24
high executive functioning.
28:27
So I want you guys to know the why. The why we want to practice these things
28:31
when we're calmer, we want to practice it when we have access to that logical part of our brain.
28:37
We want to practice that in small baby steps so that over time,
28:42
when we do have that Monday morning, Monday night, or whatever time of day meltdown,
28:47
you are remembering what to do because you've been practicing it when you're calmer.
28:53
And that's my biggest problem with getting on Instagram. There's all these quote
28:57
unquote regulation tools and a lot of them,
29:00
are really not going to work for you because you're just maybe going to practice
29:04
them in a really tense moment or when your brain is spiraling already so much.
29:09
That's not the moment to try something new because remember,
29:12
logical part of the brain kind of checks out because the emotional part of the
29:16
brain is so big because it's trying to get you to safety, right?
29:21
So as we start to practice these things when we're calmer, notice I didn't say calm.
29:27
We want to start practicing these things when we're calmer, when we have more
29:30
access to the logical part of our brain, we will be more likely to use them,
29:36
when we are more dysregulated.
29:38
Does that make sense before I go into the four N's, Kelsey? Yeah,
29:41
no, and that is a good reminder.
29:43
I think for me, I look at the fact that most of the time I'm with my kids.
29:47
And when I get a couple hours here and there without my kids,
29:51
I have that built in pattern of overproductivity.
29:55
And I feel like I need to get everything done in that time frame.
29:59
So I think that would be something for me that in those times away from my kids
30:03
where I maybe could learn some of these skills,
30:06
I need to be able to have that time kind of scheduled in and work on that sense
30:14
of needing to achieve all the time so that I can.
30:18
You know, be calm even when my kids are not around.
30:22
Calmer, calmer. Calmer, calmer. Yes, I love that. I love that.
30:25
We're not going for perfection here. It's not unrealistic.
30:29
No, and your nervous system is never meant to be regulated all the time.
30:31
Because again, we need these survival states because there are going to be extreme
30:35
situations where we have to protect ourself, right?
30:38
Or if there's an accident or something, we need to act quickly.
30:41
We want to help get our kids a Band-Aid or get them to the doctor,
30:44
you know, or call 911 or whatever it is that we need. So these states aren't bad.
30:50
But the goal is that we can come back to a little more regulated state a little
30:55
bit more often. And what Dr. Rowe talked about, she talked about the diaphragmatic
30:59
breath, and that is absolutely true.
31:02
That type of breathing helps give access to that logical, to get that logical
31:06
part of the brain back online.
31:08
So again, just that breathing deep into the belly and in through the nose.
31:15
She suggested a count there. And if counting feels too hard,
31:18
if that helps your brain, you know, with ADHD thinking or patterning or spiraling,
31:22
like if the counting helps, but sometimes for some of my clients,
31:25
the counting doesn't help. It actually makes them feel more frantic.
31:29
So don't worry about counting if you don't want to count. Just practice breathing
31:34
deep into the belly, in through the nose, out through the nose or mouth.
31:38
That actually helps both parts of the brain come back online.
31:41
So before I go into the four N's, if there's anything that you should start
31:45
practicing now, it's as she said, that number one thing is that diaphragmatic breathing.
31:51
Because remember, if we were actually running from an animal,
31:54
like a saber-toothed tiger or a bear, we would be open mouth breathing.
32:00
You guys, we are so many of us are doing that or we're holding our breath without
32:04
even realizing it. That is like sending a signal to activate the part of our
32:09
nervous system that we are not safe.
32:12
So our breath alone sends that signal to tell the nervous system what to do. Does that? Yeah.
32:20
You know, when I'm done, I love doing these interviews, but even when I'm done,
32:24
I notice I hit the end on the record button and then I take a deep breath. Yeah.
32:29
You know, even though I don't feel actively anxious or nervous,
32:33
but I do, I feel that like, you know, I can relax and I feel that in my body.
32:39
So I can absolutely see how that is helpful. Does that build then,
32:44
excuse me, does that build resilience or build up a more regulated nervous system
32:51
to be able to handle the stressful times better if you've been practicing breathing during other times?
32:57
The breath can for sure. It's a great thing to do with the kids.
33:00
I have some families that do this at night before bed, especially if bedtime
33:04
is hard or kids are all over the place, right?
33:07
Like sometimes we actually do need, if you have a lot of energy,
33:10
you're one that has a lot of energy at night and can't calm down,
33:13
it might not actually work to go right into a breathing pattern.
33:16
I have some clients that actually need movement first.
33:19
So a really fun thing to do, especially if you're going to go getting ready
33:22
to go into a winter season like I am, play some really fun, loud music with your kids.
33:27
Everybody gets to move, shake their body because we store so much in. And so sometimes our...
33:33
Our frantic or spiraling reactions are actually because we have not released
33:38
enough energy throughout the day.
33:40
So just a really fun one, just pick a really fun song.
33:43
I have a few ground rules like we tell everybody, especially our little kids,
33:46
you have to stay in your own space. You don't get to harm anybody else or property
33:50
and you not touching anybody else.
33:53
You can make sound because sound actually needs to be released out of the body
33:56
too. Did you know we store sound when And for years, we never got to say what we needed to say.
34:02
So we can scream, we can yell, and we set the intention to do this for however many minutes.
34:08
And sometimes that movement is enough for then the family to calm down.
34:12
And then we can go into practice this breathing.
34:15
Laying on the floor is really great to practice your diaphragm expansion.
34:19
And it's so great for kids, which I think Dr. Rowe said, I volunteer and teach
34:23
a lot of teachers and school counselors how to use this stuff,
34:25
especially with their ADHD kids in school.
34:27
So it's really fun for kids to put like little rubber duckies on their belly
34:31
because you can like watch the belly rise and fall or you can just put your
34:35
hands there, expand the belly on the inhale, let the belly sink in on the exhale.
34:43
And as you guys practice that, you are building that capacity over time and
34:47
you'll be more likely to remember it in those stressful moments.
34:51
And that's kind of my transition into the four ends, unless you have questions about the breath.
34:55
No, I think that's good. I think it's also nice what you said,
34:58
though, about my eldest does seem to need to move before bed.
35:03
And even when we get home from school, he'll go for a bike ride. He's seven. He'll come.
35:08
He'll go on the elliptical and he'll be going 23 miles an hour.
35:12
It's insane. I don't know how he can move that fast, but he needs to get out
35:17
all of that excess energy. And then, yeah, we have been at bedtime.
35:20
He'll often struggle to fall asleep and so I've taught him
35:23
the breathing sometimes he struggles with that like he's saying you know it's
35:27
not working or it's not happening fast enough but I think that's a really important
35:31
reminder what you said about sound waiting needing to let sound out of our body
35:36
because I see it I see it build up,
35:38
in him where it just seems like there's this excess energy when something happens and,
35:44
when it's not released in in,
35:47
desirable ways earlier in the day, sometimes it can be in.
35:51
Those outbursts and that struggling to fall asleep.
35:54
So that is helpful to know. Thank you. Totally. Yeah. Like give yourself permission
35:58
in your kids to use that sound appropriately. Because again,
36:00
if you really had to fight something, that sympathetic energy that shows up in the body is big.
36:06
Your adrenaline is pumping. You've got cortisol. You need all of that to fight and defend yourself.
36:11
And so for most of the time, when that fight energy showed up as kids,
36:15
we weren't able to fight back. We weren't able to actually advocate for ourself.
36:18
We weren't able to say no to our parents and don't do that.
36:22
You guys, that energy doesn't just disappear.
36:25
Sympathetic energy stores in the body like a volcano.
36:29
And so over time, it might show up as saying things and just blurting out yelling
36:34
and we say things we don't mean.
36:37
Sometimes I have some clients that come in with a nervous shake or a bouncy
36:40
leg or like a little nervous tick or something we do with our hands and fidgeting.
36:46
And sometimes, you guys, that fidgeting is stored sympathetic energy that needs somewhere to go.
36:52
And some of that has to do with our sound. Think about having a baby.
36:55
If you had to be 100% like quiet, could you actually push a baby out like without medication?
37:00
No, we need we need that visceral sound sometimes.
37:05
And so some of my clients, I have them scream in a pillow regularly,
37:08
like when their kids go to school.
37:09
So sometimes they just do it in their car. I have I live by beautiful canyon
37:14
with streams and mountains.
37:15
And so sometimes my clients go up and put their feet in the water and yell and scream.
37:19
And so if we need that, our kids need that, too. And we see sometimes kids that
37:25
don't feel like they have that permission to do that at home in a safe environment.
37:28
They're doing that. They're the ones that are acting out at school.
37:31
No, that was very validating. Sympathetic energy gets stored in our body.
37:36
It doesn't just magically disappear. I wish it did.
37:39
It doesn't. It doesn't. So much. I feel like I understand so much more now with
37:45
this. And this is probably why recently, just on a side note,
37:49
when you talk about being aware of what we need. My husband,
37:52
you know, what do you need? What do you want me to do?
37:54
And whatever. I mean, don't get me wrong. There's that whole part of like,
37:57
figure it out. Like, just look around. Yeah, you should know.
38:00
Figure it out. But I'm like, I don't even know. But recently,
38:03
I've been going to do Orange Theory Fitness workouts. Awesome.
38:08
I don't know if you've ever tried those, but I'm like, they are intense.
38:11
An hour long. And the ones I've gone to, we go from the treadmill to the rower to then doing weights.
38:18
And that time away, and I do, I get out all this excess energy and I work so
38:24
insanely hard, but I think I'm trying to work out all of this excess energy
38:30
that I have because I feel incredible.
38:31
And I thought it was just because I have that break from my kids saying,
38:35
mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy all the time, but it's also getting out that energy.
38:39
So now I know that on my drive home, I'll also sing at the top of my lungs and
38:43
maybe scream a little bit and then I will come home completely reset.
38:47
I think that would be amazing.
38:48
It's so powerful. So invite you guys to try that and look and ask yourself,
38:53
am I getting healthy movement throughout the day? This is not about weight loss.
38:56
This is not about shaming ourselves into not getting our workout box checked. No, healthy movement.
39:01
If you work full time, this should be like, especially if you're having a hard
39:05
time focusing, you guys, your brain is like meant to focus about,
39:08
I think, 50 minute chunks.
39:10
So you should have that five minute break of getting up, not scrolling your
39:13
phone, getting outside if you can, moving around.
39:16
I have some clients that just go into the bathroom and jump up and down and
39:19
do jumping jacks for a few minutes and it helps their brain come back online
39:23
you've got to find ways to release energy and anything bilateral which means both sides of the body,
39:30
is so so helpful especially for those of you guys again dealing with some of
39:35
this adhd stuff and one of the biggest underutilized tools if you guys want
39:40
to write down it's called bilateral stimulation music we use this in trauma therapy bilateral.
39:45
Bilateral again just means both sides of the brain.
39:48
So we are getting that logical part of the brain to be friends again with the
39:52
emotional part of the brain.
39:54
You can go to Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube, and just search bilateral stimulation music.
40:00
It also might be called EMDR music just because it's the music we use in EMDR trauma work.
40:06
It's not going to be a process for you, so you can use it and put headphones in.
40:10
It doesn't need to be very, very, very loud. So you should still be able to
40:14
hear your family while you're cooking dinner if you need it.
40:16
And it is going to help regulate. A lot of my clients with ADHD,
40:20
especially kids, they wake up in the morning, parents put their headphones on
40:23
them, and then they go about their routine getting dressed, eating breakfast,
40:27
doing their hair, packing their backpack, making their lunch.
40:30
And we are helping the brain get into a more regulated state before they go
40:34
out the door for school. And then some kids need it more after school and some
40:38
kids need it at bedtime and especially adults.
40:41
You guys can use this music anytime throughout the day. Really beneficial if
40:44
you have to sit down and write 10 emails or you have to get through 10 projects
40:48
or you're paying a bunch of bills or whatever you do for your work or just in your home life.
40:53
But you want headphones on because we want it as close to our brain as possible.
40:56
And you'll hear the sound carry back and forth. It's not going to be the most
41:00
beautiful mindfulness music you've ever heard, but it's mindfulness music with an intention.
41:05
So if there's anything I feel like not enough therapists and practitioners are
41:10
using is bilateral stimulation music.
41:12
My only caveat is because I just have to have a caveat is don't drive with it
41:16
because sometimes it makes you so calm.
41:18
So I'm like, okay, I learned very quickly to tell my clients,
41:22
don't listen to it in the car, save it for any time.
41:24
But some parents, after they drop off their kids at carpool or before they pick
41:27
them up, five minutes in the car, we're not scrolling our phone,
41:30
we're just going to close our eyes and we're going to listen to this music.
41:33
Sometimes clients listen to it and walk because again, some of my clients need
41:36
so much more movement to release than others.
41:41
I like that as a practical tool for my son and i was going to ask whether it
41:45
needs to be in headphones as well but i think that is really great a really
41:48
great idea and it's nice when there are tools like that that we can use during
41:52
those times totally free,
41:54
stressful dysregulating yeah and simple too something that we don't have to
41:58
make a lot of conscious effort in order in order to do that
42:02
now i'm so curious with this framework here okay yeah let's do it how do we
42:07
bring ourselves to safety. I want to know.
42:10
Okay. So there's four simple steps. I call it the four ends.
42:13
And it's okay if one step takes you a long time. Some of my clients just spend a month on.
42:21
I talk more about this on my podcast and my upcoming book. You can find more
42:25
information on my Instagram. So however Kelsey shares that, I try to talk about
42:29
this stuff a lot. But the first step is notice, which we've already talked about. That's that awareness.
42:35
And I want to add a layer here that might help with some of that overthinking
42:39
or some of that forgetting or fidgeting.
42:42
Is there some research by Eric Cross out of the University of Michigan that
42:46
he studied about what happens when we use our own name out loud?
42:51
We actually get to become our own coach and we can help ourselves solve problems
42:56
by creating a little bit more psychological distance by saying our own name
43:00
so for you guys specifically and everyone listening i'm off this is the way
43:04
i'm going to use my four ends,
43:06
you don't have to but it's very very helpful for you guys to be able to slow
43:10
the moment down to create safety by using your own name so here's an example
43:14
notice so for me that would just be liana what are you noticing in your body right now.
43:19
And the sooner we can start to notice, the better. So this is as soon as those
43:24
moments are getting tense, the sooner we can do it, the more access we have
43:28
to the logical part of our brain.
43:30
And so when we start to notice, it can be things like, oh, I noticed that my jaw is really tight.
43:35
I noticed that I'm holding my breath or I'm breathing really rapid or my mind
43:41
is starting that laundry list of things to do or I'm going into this spiral
43:44
already or I'm hating myself or I just want to run away from.
43:49
Or my body is getting hot, or I'm just feeling like numbing out.
43:53
So your body, you guys, is going to start sending signals before it actually
43:57
goes to the fight, flight, or freeze.
43:59
Your body is trying to tell you, hey, we are not feeling safe here.
44:04
We have to prepare to mobilize to run away or shut down completely.
44:08
So the sooner we can notice, the better. So even right now, if you're in a calmer
44:13
state, again, practice noticing. What are you noticing in your body right now?
44:18
And can And you bring awareness to that.
44:21
So that's step one. Any questions about step one? No, I think that's good.
44:25
I'm curious about the next step because I'm doing, as you said,
44:27
I'm noticing. But I'm like, I notice it. But now what do I do? Second step is to name.
44:33
We want to practice that naming, especially if we can name out loud.
44:37
So for me, it'd be like, Leanna, what might be happening here?
44:40
We can name a lot of things. I'm not feeling heard.
44:44
My body's actually mobilizing into fight. I feel like I have to protect myself.
44:49
I feel like my body is going offline.
44:51
I feel like I'm shutting down. I just want to punch something.
44:55
I just want to yell because I don't feel validated.
44:59
So naming is really powerful. And there's other researchers that have talked
45:04
about the step of naming.
45:06
And you guys can Google the power of naming. But again, using your own name
45:10
and naming what's actually happening helps us bring reality to the present moment.
45:15
Questions about that? So if part of naming it, is that because it makes you
45:20
feel validated in what we're experiencing?
45:24
Yeah, we're bringing awareness to it and something we'd have to do in another
45:27
conversation. But sometimes our current reactions and responses are still based
45:32
on an unhealed version of us from when we were kids.
45:36
So sometimes what's showing up currently is, again, that generational impact.
45:40
It can be from even our own younger self that's still feeling stuck because
45:45
what's happening in the kitchen is a mirror or a reminder of something that
45:49
happened when we were younger and it didn't have that healthy repair.
45:55
So we're trying to bring awareness to it which also helps us stay in the present
45:59
moment too and keep that access to the logical part of our brain right okay
46:05
that's good to know any questions about that.
46:08
Uh i don't think i mean a lot of questions but also not because when you're
46:13
talking about in a future time we could talk about that childhood version
46:16
unfortunately i don't think we have time for that today yeah we can totally
46:20
do that yeah so we're we're bringing awareness to our current situation,
46:24
but yeah, it couldn't be an impact of our younger self, yes,
46:27
but sometimes just naming it can also calm the sensation down.
46:31
Okay. Then the third step is nurture. So for me, if I was going to use my own
46:36
name, it'd be, okay, Leanna, what do you need right now? How can you support yourself?
46:41
And sometimes in that moment, that's where I'm like, okay, I need to bring awareness back to my breath.
46:46
I'm going to bring awareness. Sometimes I'm just going to give myself a hug. And I think Dr.
46:50
Rowe talked about that to teach kids, just call it a self hug or a butterfly tap hug.
46:54
So if I just am like, I have my arms on my own shoulders and I'm just going
46:59
to tap, alternate tapping. This is another way to help the body feel safe and
47:03
regulated, bring a little bit awareness.
47:06
I do a lot of body tapping. That's something, again, we could talk about another time too.
47:10
If you guys are interested in tapping, it can be very helpful for ADHD too.
47:14
You can go to one of my favorite Instagram pages is The Tapping Solution and
47:18
you can learn about tapping because we don't have time to do that today.
47:21
But it's a great way to calm down that emotional part of the brain.
47:25
Sometimes that nurture is realizing too as moms, oh, I actually need,
47:30
I actually need five minutes.
47:33
And could we give ourselves that five minutes to take a break and also teach this to our kids?
47:39
Because this is something I have parents help teach their children how to take
47:41
their own five minute break to self-soothe, to reflect, to practice some of
47:45
these skills so that we aren't the ones that have to give it to them all the time.
47:49
Because, again, they're going to grow up and hopefully the goal is they leave us.
47:52
I have three adult children right now, but it's also very bittersweet.
47:54
But they have to learn how to regulate without us, with our presence,
47:59
but that they are actually doing the tools themselves. So even before they get
48:03
a hug from us, can they hug themselves?
48:05
Can they learn to bring awareness back to their own breath and their own body?
48:09
And as you model that, even the little breaks, you are basically teaching your
48:14
children that it is okay for them to take a break for themselves too.
48:18
That is something, that's how we model safety. I don't I tell my clients to
48:22
I don't I'm not a fan of telling your children you're safe because if the body
48:25
doesn't feel safe that actually is going to create a bigger disconnect same with school teachers
48:30
the job is to increase the felt sense of safety with yourself that impacts all
48:36
those that are connected to you through what we call co-regulation.
48:39
I think something I'm that's coming to mind for me right now is.
48:44
The awareness piece and how important that is because I think sometimes
48:48
my kid will shriek really loud and it feels like I go from zero to ten but the
48:52
reality is is I'm not going from zero to ten I'm going from eight to ten
48:56
I just didn't realize I was already at an eight already at an eight yeah yeah
48:59
and I think that's the piece for me that often feels like it's missing is why can I
49:04
feel that explosion that volcano,
49:07
so quickly but like you said sympathetic energy gets stored in our bodies and have not,
49:13
actively sought ways to release that to get rid of that to name it to you know
49:21
ask what do I need right now then
49:23
it's it's going to be staying there so I think that's a really helpful,
49:26
way to put the pieces together for me and so with nurture too it can in the
49:30
moment especially if it's a really tense one it can just be telling ourselves
49:33
like it's going to be okay I'm going to be able to so sometimes that nurture
49:37
is just that self-compassion like I'm going to get through this.
49:42
We're going to make this through. I'm going to be able to like,
49:45
like, this is just a dinner time, you know, it's just like, so sometimes just
49:48
talking to ourself about that current moment, sometimes that's nurture. And.
49:53
And then the fourth step is navigate. So for me, that would be like,
49:56
Leanna, what's the very next meaningful step?
49:59
Navigate is what helps us get out of that unstuck moment and look into the next one.
50:04
Because again, sometimes those moments feel so scary or hard because again,
50:09
we're assessing a thread at a different level.
50:12
So navigate helps us have choice, helps us realize like, what do I want to choose next?
50:18
So for me, if I was nurturing in the kitchen myself and just giving myself a
50:22
self hug, and I realized it wasn't enough, that navigate next would be telling
50:26
all my kids, hey, I love you, mom needs five minutes. So sometimes that navigate
50:30
is where we take the break too.
50:32
There's no right or wrong way to do this, but sometimes it's communicating.
50:36
It's like, okay, like mom's having a really hard time right now.
50:39
I realized I just need to go, like I'm gonna get a drink of water.
50:41
I gotta go to the bathroom and I'm gonna go to the bathroom by myself with the
50:44
door shut and I'm going to, I'm just going to- And you're not allowed to bang on the door.
50:49
Right, and I'm just going to breathe and then I'm going to come back in five minutes and I love you.
50:54
So sometimes that navigate is that step. Sometimes navigate is saying,
50:58
I'm sorry, mom's still learning.
51:02
And that to me is a big one because I didn't have that growing up.
51:05
I didn't have that. I'm sorry. I'm learning to regulate and learning to heal.
51:09
So sometimes navigate is an apology. Sometimes it's just that next thing.
51:13
Sometimes it's realizing I need more help. So sometimes it's calling a friend
51:17
or a parent or our husband and being like, hey, tonight's not going well.
51:21
I need some extra support and help. And that's hard one for a lot of us.
51:25
Sometimes that navigate is going outside to breathe and walk around the block.
51:29
Again, walking is such a powerful one for a lot of people to get that,
51:33
to calm that sympathetic and release some energy.
51:36
Sometimes it'll be a dance party with the kids because you're realizing the
51:39
moment's just screwed anyway. So let's all just scream and yell and dance at the top of our lungs.
51:45
So does that, like, I just want to throw some options out there.
51:48
No, it does. And I think something that comes up for those of us with ADHD,
51:53
we tend to have a lot going on in our thoughts.
51:56
And we put a lot on our plates and we like being quite busy and have a lot going on.
52:02
But something that can be a struggle is learning some of these systems.
52:06
Best intentions to implement them, and then not remembering.
52:09
So I just want to remind those who are listening right now, that's normal.
52:14
That's okay. That's not something to be ashamed about, but also just to encourage
52:17
those who are listening right now to take a quick second and write down something
52:23
that would be helpful for remembering.
52:24
Like for me, I'm like, okay, sticky note on the fridge, I'm going to write notice,
52:28
name, nurture, and navigate. And then under nurture, I'm going to say,
52:32
you know, a hug, tapping hug. Because butterfly hug, I never remember what that
52:36
means. Yeah, so whatever it would be for you.
52:38
Yeah a tapping hug and maybe i'll just write like a couple notes with it because
52:42
i i know that this is so helpful and i know when i do this it does help me but i find that with
52:48
with time and feeling overwhelmed or burnt out it can go by the wayside i forget
52:53
about it and then i don't do it so that would be something i would encourage
52:56
those who are listening right now is to,
52:58
put some sort of support or reminder in place maybe it's something first thing
53:04
in the morning maybe it's something at the end of the day maybe it's something
53:07
on your fridge or by your calendar wherever it is for that person that would help them,
53:12
so so so helpful and that's why my my book is all on the four end so it's like
53:17
300 pages of lots of steps and,
53:20
worksheets and things so it so when i say this yeah it's four steps but again
53:24
some clients spend notice and spend months just working on notice and name those
53:29
that are so disconnected from their body so there is no timeline either.
53:33
And if that's all and that's where you are, then work on that because a lot
53:38
of us are living on autopilot and as we start to just bring awareness.
53:43
Start naming our actual experiences out loud, which you can do throughout the
53:46
day, you can start naming things.
53:47
Oh, I'm overwhelmed. I'm freaking out in this carpool line because it's not
53:51
moving fast enough, right? Like, Liana, what are we going to do in this situation?
53:54
Remember, if you use your own name, you're helping become your own advocate and coach.
53:58
It's going to slow it down. It's going to help you be more present.
54:02
And it's going to help you be able to, again, you want that logical part of
54:05
your brain to have access to.
54:07
Because if we're all just running from the emotional part of the brain,
54:09
then again, remember, it's like it's comparable to having to fight or run away
54:14
or shut down from a saber-toothed tiger. Yeah.
54:18
Yeah. Or the burning dinner. Right. Yeah. Right.
54:22
Okay, well, I will have to read that book for sure. There's a lot to look at here.
54:28
Before we go, where can we go to find out more about you and about this work that you're doing?
54:33
Yeah, you guys can go to lianahunt.com. You can learn all about what I do there
54:38
and my monthly nervous system membership.
54:40
And by the time this comes out, probably I have a new freebie podcast.
54:44
So it's just seven episodes that talk more about this just as a freebie for
54:49
those that subscribe to my email list.
54:50
I also have the NeuroAir podcast, but all of that you can find on the website.
54:54
So we're gonna break down these frameworks on the podcast, some really cool guests, like,
54:58
as amazing people like Kelsey, and just starting to talk about and have these
55:02
conversations about the generational work and what we can do as parents,
55:06
how we use the four ends and other nervous system tools to create that sense of safety in the body.
55:11
Well, I appreciate it. And I know that those who have listened have also appreciated
55:15
it. There's so much to go on here. I have a full page of notes.
55:18
So thanks so much for being here.
55:20
I love that. Thanks and hope you guys all have a wonderful rest of your day wherever you are.