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The "Firefighter" Trap Killing Your Startup - With Tiffany Khoo · Founder F**K ups

• Ben Bagg: time out guys. Lots of you are watching, ⁓ of you are learning from the founder fuckups that ⁓ all gone through, but please do me one little teeny favour ⁓ subscribe so we can keep growing the channel and get more great founders on. ⁓ Back the episode. Today's guest is Tiffany, the founder of WeAssist, a platform that's transforming health As a founder, Tiffany believed that because she built the system, she had to be at the center of every decision. thought leadership meant jumping to solve every problem from product, ops and ⁓ internal team ⁓ She was the ultimate firefighter and she was good at it, but there was a hidden cost to her efficiency. Her team started to feel like she was protecting underperformers and the accountability was inconsistent. The very act of her fixing things was quietly eroding the team's sense of ownership. Today we're talking about the founders fix it trap, the dangerous belief that solving every problem yourself is a sign of strength how Tiffany had to completely restructure her company to learn the hard lesson that true leadership isn't about having all the answers, but about building a team that can find them. Tiffany, welcome to the pod. Tiffany: Very nice to be here. Thank you, Ben. Ben Bagg: Yeah, great to have you. Great to have you. In fact, we ran into each other once, right? ⁓ We've got a mutual friend with it. Tiffany: We were at a restaurant coincidentally called Ben's that's where we met for the first time. ⁓ Ben Bagg: Hello there. So Tiffany, you believe that because you've built the system, you kind of had to, I guess, approve every decision, jump in when something's not working. did that feel like the right way to do things in the early days of WeAssist? ⁓ Tiffany: So I think for a lot of people who start companies, you're not going to start with the whole team. know, I mean, this is if you don't start off fully funded, we started off bootstrapping. In fact, we bootstrapped for three years till we hit first profitability. But that also meant that we were running on a super lean team and a super inexperienced team. ⁓ felt like it was a healthy culture at the time for everyone to kind of say, hey, you have, do you need any help? Let me step in. ⁓ everyone wore multiple hats. No one decided which hat to where was the need? And that was good at the beginning, right? Because you basically get that kind of agility and flexibility without these rigid roles. obviously initially that felt like a huge strength, know, anyone could help each other. And obviously as the founder, I had certain perspectives of how I wanted things run. So I would then have input to every single person on every single item on sort of the product all the way up to ops, as you mentioned. Ben Bagg: Yeah, yeah, no, I get that. I get that. I guess when everyone's wearing multiple hats, you've got a small, young, team, ⁓ are happening as well. like there's ⁓ lot of fires most likely like in your day. I guess your day was ⁓ always firefighting. ⁓ Tiffany: Yeah, and I think it's not just about me firefighting. It felt like the culture of the team was everyone would help put out fires. And then we felt cohesive, we felt together, we felt productive when we putting out all these little emergencies as well. Ben Bagg: And then there was a shift where you were the primary firefighter. there a shift in the culture that changed that? ⁓ Tiffany: Yep. So obviously as clients increased, we needed to get more people on board. ⁓ newer team members would come in ⁓ executives, didn't have the early vision of the founding team ⁓ as ⁓ And it became down to me to kind of try to impart those values with a crash course sort of way. ⁓ So of trying to let everyone have a feel for how the company ran, ⁓ I then to download everything I knew ⁓ and everything team knew into a person Ben Bagg: Thank Tiffany: within one month. So this ultimately resulted in pushing for the wrong culture in new people. Exactly. And then they would come back to me and I would say, you know what, I know it's a lot, it's overwhelming, come back to me if you have any issues. And this started for one month, two months, three months, and then it was a year and a half and I would still be solving small things and that just became the new culture. Ben Bagg: Yeah, okay. That culture shifted really because as we scale the non-scale things we did at first with our founding things weren't really fitting in the culture of the new folks. Was there... And I'm going to ask you some more questions on this, but when you were recruiting these executives, was there anything in your recruitment process kind of thinking about this was actually a gap in the recruitment process that we hadn't considered? Are these executives going to be able live into this culture? Because that sounds like that was a gap. Tiffany: So I think what specifically was the problem was that I was looking for the wrong quality in each individual. So I'm going to draw the dichotomy between what I do now and what I used to do, right? But we'll start with what I used to do, which is look for people who are willing. That was my biggest thing, right? Whoever felt like they were willing to learn, whoever felt like they wouldn't say no to a challenge, were the kinds of people that I wanted. You have to get the context that I come from the healthcare sector. And I wanted to hire people with healthcare background, but healthcare is a very risk averse sector. So just finding a person who was willing to say, yeah, let's take some risk, it's already felt like I was looking for unicorn. what I do now is that we do a hybrid of skill and will. ⁓ used to be like, hey, you know what? I started off young, everyone starts off young, we can all pick up skill as long as we have will. ⁓ now realized that there's going to be a lot of time disadvantage if we rely on that method. ⁓ not saying it's not true, but it might take too long. ⁓ that whole process could mean that I'm burning myself out slowly, I'm fixing everyone's problems until they get to the ⁓ level that I wanted. ⁓ they might never reach it. because I'm stepping in all the time. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Yeah. And then when you kind of, lack of a better term, kind of mother people, ⁓ babysit them, probably a better version, it's for them to grow as well, right? So you that at some point, your team kind of started telling you that they felt like you were ⁓ protecting underperformers a way, or ⁓ shielding bad h... Tiffany: Hmm. Yep. Ben Bagg: That must have been to hear, right? Can kind of walk us through how those conversations happened and how it have forced you to kind of see your actions from that perspective? Tiffany: So somewhat ironically, the reason how all this unfolded was because I felt that I was doing too much mothering. So I needed to get in like middle management to kind of cover those gaps. But had not changed my mindset about the way I would ⁓ teach management. ⁓ You I would be putting people into roles that perhaps, you know, most startup managers, we don't have a lot of experience in management, ⁓ right? probably done product for some time, but not a lot of experience dealing with people. ⁓ So they step into their roles, I would say don't worry. I'll work with you. Whatever issues you have, can come to me about it. And because I so desperately wanted my team to succeed, I so desperately wanted my middle managers to do well, that meant that whenever a decision was made properly or whenever steps were skipped, it then became something that I would immediately step into cover. And this became so easy to do with WhatsApp. By adding myself into every Slack channel, into every WhatsApp group, I then was able to answer questions before anyone else could answer them. me, it was solving problems as getting the clients exactly what they needed ASAP. But for my team, was, ⁓ look, she's jumping in to save this manager again. She's jumping in to save this senior again. And they didn't even have to show how weak they were. Ben Bagg: Before we more about the conversations, when people say to go, hey, you're protecting, by all this protection and shielding, how did impact the company results? ⁓ Tiffany: So I want to contextualize this by saying when I talk about protection and shielding, was never this whole, I'm going to protect my team. It was always about, ⁓ the needs of the business. ⁓ clients are trying to get us to get back to them. ⁓ have specific solutions that will ⁓ problems in the long run. ⁓ a lawyer by training. ⁓ every time I think about something, I think about ⁓ of like risk mitigation. ⁓ you could go with option A, ⁓ in my head, I'm like, ⁓ they really think about the consequences of taking that decision down the line? Ben Bagg: Yeah, of course. Tiffany: If I could change that decision now, we could be potentially avoiding an issue that could prop up perhaps a year later. So it's really quite jumping the gun there. So that's just to contextualize that a little bit. ⁓ in terms of ⁓ problems that I felt I was trying to solve, it always a matter of... feeling that I could do it faster and I could probably do it better and if they see me do it this way, perhaps they could do it as well. So it was just me expecting naively that if they were exposed to the way I did things, they would then pick it up too. without actually evaluating whether or not this was a good thing to pass on to people. ⁓ Ben Bagg: Yeah, okay, interesting. And when this was raised by your team, did that impact you? ⁓ Tiffany: So this had already been a point where things had accumulated quite badly. was quite a deep dissatisfaction amongst the team ⁓ different managers. They basically felt like ⁓ weren't being heard, their problems weren't being solved at manager level. ⁓ they came to me, ⁓ would then ⁓ solve it for them, making them feel inadequate. ⁓ ⁓ that cascading feeling of, should I try solving this problem if I'm gonna do a bad job? So that was one thing. ⁓ for ⁓ of my staff, it had the opposite effect, ⁓ she said, let me do anything because even if it goes badly, she would fix it. Because I was trying very hard not to sort of reduce the risk taking. At every start I was worried about that. So I always wanted people to try to take risks, to try different things. In the process, I would then be the person responsible for thinking of all the potential issues that could happen. And people then lost the sense of responsibility over their work. It became, let's just try it. It doesn't matter whether it works or not because Stephanie could fix it later. Ben Bagg: mean, there's some good from that, obviously, having people experiment and try new things. But the part the benefit of experimentation is the pain of the lesson, ⁓ if ⁓ don't have the consequence ⁓ that lesson, ⁓ do you really learn? ⁓ Tiffany: That's, ⁓ yeah, beautiful, yeah. Exactly. But as a founder, do you really want to step back and say, let them feel the pain because who's the baby really? Is it your staff or is it the business? Right. And for me, it was always like, am I really going to let someone push? push over my kid, for lack of a better word, make him cry and let him feel that. But what I learned now is that all of these can be simulated, right? Like you can have reasonable hypothesis, you can have certain thresholds whereby certain mistakes are allowed to be made up to an extent, and then you can have standards that help prevent all of this from happening without me having to step in. Ben Bagg: In the late stages ⁓ our, well, several businesses, but one of them where we started bringing in ⁓ we would always have hypothesis and guardrails. There does need to be a level of protection, but we do need to encourage risk taking. Obviously solving problems is kind of like that short term relief, right? But as you said before, you know, doing this was going to cause kind of long-term issues around kind of ownership and culture, right? Could you give me an example of when perhaps you did a fix it mode? And I'm just thinking about like a TV show, it's like fix it, you know? But when you're fixed, you've actually made things perhaps worse in the long run. Tiffany: Yup. going to say that there was a lot of things that probably happened in increments that I never really saw. ⁓ if I have to think of a particular tipping point, it could be that ⁓ so long, I had been responsible for all the agreements ⁓ we do with our clients. ⁓ we work with huge clients, right? We work with hospitals that have over 3,000 beds. ⁓ these are all large enterprise style contracts run by very small team. ⁓ because I have all this experience in law, it always felt like, okay, this is something that I can look at. ⁓ whenever every sales manager would go, to the ground and negotiate small things. Instead of trying to figure out how that will work, they would just bring that back to me. Almost like an owl, I would say, just kind of sending back the information to me and then I would make that decision at every stage and at every level. So this meant that our clients would always hear from every line manager, hold on, let me check. No decision making on the IN at all, a lot of passing information back and then every decision fell on my plate. So from a very practical perspective, I can share that I had a child two years ago. right, and I tried to take some time off to care for my kid. So during this time away, this became a decision gap in the organization that hadn't fully closed. In my naivety, I felt that, ⁓ I've made so many similar decisions before, they can mirror those decision making. But because I had never empowered anyone to do it, they had never seen what it was like to make that decision, they didn't know what it could look like. So that ended up becoming one of clear example of a problem. Now, enterprise agreements are much easier to negotiate because every team member at every level knows exactly what they are allowed to decide on. But this was something I had to take a long time to do. I had to take I think four and a half years before I put that in place. Ben Bagg: No, look, I get that. think because I came from a sales background, as my last employer, we had had this negotiation matrix that we had access to. Day one, I brought that to the business. Luckily, I didn't have these problems. But I totally get what you mean around these various decision-making. Tiffany: Hmm. Mmm. Ben Bagg: I was quite fortunate that I didn't wait until an event like you did where you had to, you you gave birth and then you had to take a break and spend time with your newborn. I actually ended up in hospital for six days and that was my test because I was in HDU. I was not in a good way. And thankfully the business kept running without me and I had kind of built those systems. I think those are big. Tiffany: Hmm. Ben Bagg: eye opening moments when you cannot work physically you cannot work see the gaps you don't want to build a job for yourself or the business has to run without you. Tiffany: Mmm. Yep. So in the banking sector, is just a fun fact, I used to work in the central bank in Malaysia, and in the banking sector, ⁓ have a requirement for mandatory leave. So bank will have mandatory shutdowns for different core components of different teams, because they want to prevent exactly that. One person being too responsible ⁓ and a huge continuity issue. ⁓ So something that I'm starting to think about, like, bye bye, if someone were to disappear overnight. Not that I'm wishing this on anyone, right? But I constantly ask my team that, if you giving these notes to a colleague and you are not around to answer, will they be able to interpret that? And now that's the test right? Can someone understand and someone pick up what you were working on if you're not here anymore? Ben Bagg: Really. Cognitive green mob, cognitive green mob. And I look at that in every part of the business. It's easy to focus on the sales and retention side, because that's such a critical part, because most founders are leading sales. But you have to look at all parts of the business, cognitive green mob. And obviously, when you started to solve everybody's problem, you found that decision making wasn't, there was basically no autonomous decision making. All roads led to Tiffany. And we're stuck, have an accountability gap. Without accountability gap, how did that kind of play out with your team? Did you see a decline? Because you mentioned that people were kind of some risks, but they didn't really care about the outcome, or if it went wrong, that wasn't a consequence. Tiffany: Hmm. Ben Bagg: Was there starting to see a dip in maybe results or a reluctance to take risks or a decline in initiative? What did you see from that account? Tiffany: The first thing I felt was that I was doing a disservice to my team when I didn't trust them. Because a lot of them have been around quite some time. And they actually, ⁓ I hire, I look for people who have deep healthcare experience, ⁓ more so than mine. So think the mistake I really made here was that I was assuming I would always make the correct decision. But that not always true. And I sort of did not give the benefit of the doubt that they could make a decision that could be better than mine. ⁓ So that was real first problem. that decision quality just wasn't as good if I'm depending fully on my decision making. And then the second thing that really affects the team is that when they then don't feel like they've been entrusted with decisions, they then don't have the confidence to make future decisions. And when I actually sit down and talk to them one-on-one, single one of them had great suggestions. Everyone had an idea of how something should be done. In fact, sometimes they would experiment a little bit on their own, ⁓ they never flesh it out. ⁓ for instance, I would have an idea of I wanted data to be presented a certain way. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Yeah. Tiffany: a team member would tell me, ⁓ I actually built this a month ago. And I'm like, why didn't you share it with any of us? And they were like, ⁓ well, you didn't ask for it but I thought it was really useful so I've been using it. So they wouldn't share things that they had actually thought of that were so valuable and so helpful and it took me much longer to think of how to do that. So what I've learned now and what I think my team has learned is that each one of us have a different strength. ⁓ able to, ⁓ for me to trust them to use their strength is ⁓ step I Ben Bagg: Mm. Tiffany: needed to make. But for them, they would also kind of want to step up, right, and say like, hey, I have this idea that I think might be better than what you are suggesting. And then I think this was sort of the beginning of being able to see that, hey, there's something wrong with the way I've been leading and there's a better way we could do it. Ben Bagg: Yeah, mean, it's really reflective, right? And it's good that you've found that, right? And you were able to see, I you know, just giving those examples that someone had taken an initiative, but they just didn't speak up about it. And that ⁓ element you took about trust, ⁓ it me think of the five dysfunctions of team, something that ⁓ I and what I found is around it. Trust is if you think of it as a pyramid. ⁓ Tiffany: Hmm. Ben Bagg: five disciplines going up, lack of trust is the first step, right? And then lack of commitment because of that. Oh, no, sorry, fear of conflict. It's lack of trust, fear of conflict, lack of commitment, inattention to results. I can't remember exactly off the top of my head now. But they all connect with each other. And I see that lack of trust in team being a massive issue for founders. Tiffany: Mmm. Mmm. Okay, have food at the end. Ben Bagg: Big one is good to eat. Tiffany: And this was the biggest problem because that wasn't true on how I felt, right? I felt like I was just trying to help. It wasn't that I didn't trust them. I wanted to make things easier for the team. I wanted to solve problems faster. But the effect is that the team felt they weren't trusted. So whether or not it's true, this is the problem that founders are gonna face, right? If you behave in a certain way, you're gonna have the impact as though people assume you don't trust them. And that has all the consequences you mentioned. Ben Bagg: I'm really glad to use the word behave, right? Behaviours are the bedrock of culture. A lot of people think of culture or they talk about the values of mission, vision statement on the walls and things like that. Pizza that crap. But actually culture is behaviours. ⁓ Tiffany: Yep, yep. So what you do, right? Yeah, you can say whatever you want but if you don't do it, then what's the point? Ben Bagg: exactly as the habits that your team do when you're not watching and when you're watching it. That is all the behaviors. And obviously we had spent, from what I understand, several years getting to this point. The beginnings was very different. And then as we scaled the 14 members and their decision-making shifted, it was a bit of a mess. To fix it, you told me that you had to completely restructure the company. What did that look like? Was that kind of, was it kind of establishing click APIs, decision making rights, you said, with the contracts, accountability points, how did that look? Tiffany: So this was honestly a very difficult restructure to do. It took. Some people's roles had changed completely. was an entire shift in their job description. And know, contractually, you basically need them to agree to do a completely different job than they had signed on to do. The first mistake I'm sure to do was that I was always looking for will. I was trying to see that, yeah, you have relevant enough info. know, kind of healthcare adjacent. Fine, you come in if your will was really strong and I felt like you had an essence to you. That was all I looking for. That wasn't enough. That wasn't good enough. So what ended up doing was that I reconfigured everybody into a skill-will matrix whereby instead of trying to identify the skills that they had, I felt like, okay, this is, you know, you can do this, you can do that. It was more of on the skill gaps my company needed. ⁓ I knew that I had ⁓ certain task that fell to me, ⁓ certain data consolidation, because every team member was pulling out data at that point ⁓ I had to clean it because I was the only one who got a full picture. ⁓ That felt unproductive to me and that also meant that I was making lot of decisions because I was the only one who saw all the data. So immediately it became a skill that there was a gap in our company. We needed people to do data visualizations, we needed people to basically process it and understand different parts of the business. So that was in the skill matrix. I listed out way more than that. think there were over 18 different skills that I had listed that our company needed and then each and every person sat there and and ranked themselves based on their skill and their will to do it. when we looked at it, obviously some people's idea of a career had changed when they joined us. They came in maybe when they were fresh graduates, now they have been three years into their career, they're thinking of doing different things. ⁓ rather than look somewhere else with all this organizational knowledge, ⁓ kind of then shifted them into a role that ⁓ better to the skills they had amassed and the will that they had. So interesting matrix became the basis of the restructuring, ⁓ but also became ⁓ the ⁓ It was also catalyzed by the fact that I had made all these micro decisions. So the whole purpose was that if you had a strong will and you were relatively good at it, you are then now more a better position to make decisions about it. ⁓ those are decisions that I wouldn't have to make. I would just have to approve. So was the basis. And we split the team from ⁓ the from three teams into five different teams. And then people who had overlapping jobs, which I felt was helpful because I wanted everyone to share hats, right? now had a very clear defined specific role and we also increased some manpower because of that and now this has been the structure and satisfaction across the company has actually gone out in every single individual that still works here. Ben Bagg: That's amazing. That's amazing. And when you were doing that kind of skill gap analysis, was this something that you kind of figured out on your own? you get some outside help from HR consultants or like that? were very at that skill gap analysis or ⁓ mentors? did you figure this out? ⁓ Tiffany: So interestingly, our product does that, but for healthcare staff. what we do, we aim at our own, and how did I not do this beforehand, right? Crazy. So essentially what we do was that our app, Ben Bagg: You ate your own dog food. Tiffany: breaks down CVs into specific skills. ⁓ thesis is that clinical staff is more likely to stay in a clinical role and not quit the to burnout, which was the whole crisis, if they are able to do things that align better with their will and their skill. ⁓ So would break down all their CV, all their submissions and ⁓ then them jobs that fit in with that skill and that will. But I never brought it to a corporate job. I only did it for clinical roles. ⁓ And I was like, we're doing skills-based assessments for these staff. Why are we not doing for our own team? ⁓ So was the kind of penny drop moment. And then second consultant that I had was AI, know, flashing it all the things that I needed, all the things I was working on, spending time on, and then basically helping clean up those thoughts into that clearer skill sheet. I then shared this skill will formula I was doing with a friend of mine who then gave it to her coach, a minister at her company. ⁓ But I didn't have a coach to do this. But I it would have been easier had I had one. ⁓ But I Ben Bagg: Nice. Tiffany: Still trying to figure out what the problems were. So at the time I didn't consult a coach. Ben Bagg: Interesting, interesting. know what, you are very in the absolute majority of fathers that just don't eat that. Tiffany: Yeah, not anymore, not anymore. Yeah. Ben Bagg: anymore. Correct. But in the past, at sometimes it's quite shocking to me how don't even ⁓ kind they like they taught the talk, but they don't walk the walk ⁓ in cases. And it's so good that ⁓ you out, wait, we're doing this already ⁓ for clients. And that's how you ended up fixing the structure. That's fantastic. ⁓ And course, it's one is doing this gap figuring out the roles restructuring. ⁓ Tiffany: Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ben Bagg: how the org chart works, but also letting go. ⁓ hard because you have been the chief firefighter, the decision maker of absolutely ⁓ How you learn, ⁓ and know that you felt like you trusted people, ⁓ but did you learn to trust your to kind of handle different decisions, performance in the business, even if they wouldn't it exactly the way you do it, how did you actually ⁓ step back? Tiffany: chief firefighter. Okay, I'm going to be very straightforward here and just say that trusting people to do things 100 % of the time is a way to be immediately disappointed. as humans, we are not able to be consistent all the time. ⁓ why the most important thing is setting up systems. ⁓ ⁓ letting go was me trusting the system. It me allowing my team ⁓ to through, always had ⁓ I'll say this clearly. ⁓ From the beginning, I wanted to run like a corporation. We started up SOPs for everything. In reality, what happened was that these SOPs slowly get modified by behavior, right? People see five steps, they go like, you know, I can turn this into two steps. Why do I need to take five steps? And sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong. But when these processes don't get debated, they don't get discussed, they don't get owned, this becomes a piece of paper. ⁓ what I needed to do first was entrust people with systems that they would own. ⁓ if something went wrong, It wasn't a human problem. It was a system failure. We are not able to identify human errors fast enough. I'm not going to try to blame my staff. That's just trying to waste time. Instead, there's something wrong with the system that lets this happen. So that letting go, tied in completely with setting up more systems, setting up better systems, and letting different team members become owners of those systems. So then they that feeling of, you know what, I can make this process better. If I made a mistake, it's not my fault. Something wrong with the system. Ben Bagg: Yes. Thank Yeah. couldn't agree more that when they're and normally fires of course because there's some sort of system break and a lot of the times people band-aid fix rather than fixed properly so they the fire fire put out another fire moving off but reality is we actually have to go back to that system and fix the system that caused the fire ⁓ Tiffany: Yeah, didn't- Yeah, exactly. I didn't want to be chief firefighter and then delegate sub-firefighters. I wanted there to be no fires, right? Or minimize the number of fires. I wanted to install sprinklers. So that was the process. Ben Bagg: ⁓ No, no, it makes perfect sense, right? You've got your team being the sprinklers. Only the major absolute fireballs will Tiffany have to... Tiffany: And no, I don't even want to get to that stage. The siren was gonna alert me there will be no big fires. That's the plan. There are no big fires because everything gets put out early on. Ben Bagg: Haha, yeah, that's right. Thanks. So how does leadership look, well, I think we have a picture of how leadership looks for you, but how does it look, how does it feel for you? How do you balance staying informed versus guiding, empowering your team? Tiffany: I want to be practical here because I hear so many leadership talks from people who give quite a big abstract angle of like, as a leader I now feel differently. But from a very practical perspective, what this looks like for me now is that I don't sit in every meeting. know, I have, ⁓ used to, right? I used to sit in every meeting. I had to ⁓ to every decision. ⁓ if I sit into meetings, they are run by someone else and I sit there and I observe. And where I do most of my leadership, right? Like I do it after the meeting. I think about it then. make decisions that only that get escalated to me. Whereas a different way of leading back then would have been before the question is even asked, I would answer the question. You know, I would think of 20 different things before I gave anyone the opportunity to say what could go wrong. then if I did that, no one would ask. So that's a very practical difference now that I have more time to do what matters. ⁓ I reading about ⁓ where should spend our time really and the question that people always or the question that I think we should ask ourselves. is what only we do, ⁓ What is the thing that only we can do? And now I hope and I think I'm spending more time doing things that only I can do. ⁓ Ben Bagg: Nice. Yeah. Can agree more. And what one, I think one frame where the people can follow to get to your point and maybe they struggle with not speaking first and things in the meeting is one rule of thumb is that the quietest person goes first. And then you work your way up and you're the last person to go in the meeting to start speaking. That's something that we implemented when we were about sort of 40 packs. That was incredibly impactful because those quiet people are a little bit shy in the meetings or you have to encourage them to speak up. it's one little framework people can come up with. Tiffany, thank you so much. The founder of Fix It Trap is one that... Tiffany: Ha! Ben Bagg: every early stage founder goes through. And I think everyone can relate to this, everyone can learn from the experience. I really appreciate you coming on the pot. Tiffany: Thank you for having me. Thanks, Ben. Ben Bagg: Cheers.