Latest / Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell / Conscious Uncoupling In Real Life - Doing Divorce Differently

Transcript

Conscious Uncoupling In Real Life - Doing Divorce Differently · Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate, a podcast covering all things relationships, separation, and divorce.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: How to create healthy, happy, fulfilling relationships without sacrificing any part of yourself.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Supporting anyone feeling challenged in their relationship or marriage.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: These are confidential conversations for you if you're navigating separation, divorce, or reorganising life afterwards.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Decide whether to stay or leave a relationship or marriage, divorce with less drama, and consciously choose what's next for you.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Warren Tree people of the Kulin Nation, and pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: I acknowledge them as the original storytellers of this land.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to this week's episode of the podcast.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome, especially if this is your first ever listen to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Today we're diving into something I've been talking about and actually doing a lot more of lately, and that is conscious uncoupling.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, that phrase that Gwyneth and Chris gifted us a few years ago, the one that you either rolled your eyes at or clung on to as possibility.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Conscious uncoupling.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: And while it was made more famous or famous by their high-profile separation, divorce, and their reorganization of their family afterwards, the term actually originates from Catherine Woodward Thomas's 2009 book, Conscious Uncoupling: Five Steps to Living Happily Even After.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: A great resource if this is something you want to explore on a deeper level.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Catherine's work, her book offers a deeply compassionate, structured approach to ending a relationship, ending a marriage with awareness, with emotional maturity and responsibility, with kindness, with care.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so while the phrase conscious uncoupling might have raised a few eyebrows or eye rolls at first, there's a real wisdom in what it invites us to consider the possibility that things, even endings, can be done with grace, kindness, compassion, even love.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because underneath the pop culture branding is something really, really powerful, and something I get to support couples through in real life.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: And if I'm really honest, it is some of the most rewarding work I get to do that I have the privilege and the honour of doing.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: So in today's episode, I want to unpack what conscious uncoupling really means, what it really is, how it looks, how it can look, I suppose, when it works, when it works well, and when it maybe just doesn't or it isn't appropriate.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're in that place asking big hard questions about your relationship, your marriage, or already having those early separation conversations with your partner, I want you to know this.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to figure it out all on your own.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: And there are ways that you can transition through and reorganise your family, your lives in kinder, compassionate, more gentle ways.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be a Johnny Depp Amber Heard train wreck disaster.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I will share more at the end of the episode about how I can support you both, in fact, your entire family, through this uncoupling, unraveling, and reorganization.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: And this is also something that I've lived in and with and through my own family.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: We separated when our kids were about seven and five, and I've always, always spoken with them about our family, meaning the four of us, our two kids, me and their dad.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really committed to the fact that we will always be a family, even if now and for a really long time we have lived in two homes, and our kids have moved and continue to move back and forth between their home with their dad and the home with me.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: And for our kids, it sometimes actually meant three homes because their dad worked flying fly out for so many years, and they spent time with him in both countries.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: So technically, they had three places that they called home.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, if I'm really honest, and if you've listened to me talk about my own marriage breakdown and reorganization of family afterwards, you probably know this.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm really honest, a big part of why we've been able to do this so calmly, so well, to share special occasions with our kids, even holidays together, is my ex-husband's calm communication style.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that and our shared commitment, our really strong commitment to treating each other well.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, for the sake of the kids, our extended social network and our extended families, but also, of course, for ourselves.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're two humans, messy, imperfect humans.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: We made mistakes, our marriage didn't work out, it didn't last forever.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: But fundamentally, we both respect and care for each other as humans.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: So we chose to consciously uncouple even before Gwyneth and Chris made it a thing.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, what is conscious uncoupling really?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get honest about this whole conscious uncoupling thing because it's not about being all zen while your heart breaks and every part of your life is reorganized around you, changing, shifting.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about pretending that it doesn't hurt, it's not painful, it's not difficult, it's not about avoiding grief, and it's definitely not about performative stuff, right?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Performing some polished picture-perfect breakup that you can pump out on social media.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about perfection.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: It is about deciding together to navigate your separation and your divorce with care, with clarity, with kindness.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's about a commitment to choose a different path, one that's less adversarial, less traumatic, less damaging, one that protects you both.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: It protects your kids, it protects your nervous system, it protects your ongoing relationship.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because while you're not going to be intimate life partners anymore, you're still going to have a relationship of some sort.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's about reorganizing your family, not blowing it up or destroying it.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's about two homes, but still being a family, still being connected, perhaps deeply connected, especially if you share children.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that's not to say it's easy.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: It really is not easy.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: It asks a lot of you.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: It asks emotional maturity, it asks emotional intelligence, it asks nervous system regulation, self-awareness, the willingness to sit in discomfort, to be honest, to hold yourself accountable, to take responsibility, radical personal responsibility for what's on your side of the fence, to be able to hold and honour boundaries for each other, to hold compassion all at the same time.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: But when it works, it is powerful.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: It can be cathartic, even healing, and not just for the two of you, but if you have children, for your children too, because they get to watch and experience you doing something really, really hard with grace, with dignity, with kindness, with respect, with compassion, even with love.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about when it works and when it doesn't.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because this process, conscious uncoupling, or whatever you want to call it, unraveling, uncoupling, isn't possible, even appropriate for every couple.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: But here's where I've seen and supported it to work really beautifully.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: It is when both people want to and are able have capacity, are willing and have capacity to protect their parenting relationship, their co-parenting relationship, even if their intimate partner relationship is ending.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: It works when there's still a baseline of mutual respect.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: It works when both of you are willing to be vulnerable, to sit in the discomfort, to work through things together and have a mutual shared goal, even when that's hard.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: It works when you're ready to let the relationship go, but want to honor what it was and what it gave you, and you still hold care and respect for the other person.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: You want to honor what you shared and shift it into something different.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: It works really well when you are both able and supported to have the hard conversations.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: Now that doesn't mean you have to have them by yourselves, but it works really well when you are able to sit together and speak together, whether that's in a supported, mediated, coached space or a ranch kitchen table, and maintain your nervous systems, the regulation of your nervous system, and have those hard conversations and move through the discomfort and through the conflict and come to agreement.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: It works when both of you are committed to putting your mental, emotional, even physical well-being and the well-being of your children ahead of you know a personal agenda, having to win or having to seek out revenge, whatever it is, right?
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: You you put all of that aside and you are focused on an outcome, a future where you are both happy, healthy, and your kids are happy and healthy.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: And here's where it usually doesn't work.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, if there's any abuse, emotional abuse, manipulative abuse, manipulation, coercive control, this is not a strategy, it's a safety issue.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: So any type of huge power imbalance where one is completely disempowered or significantly less powerful than the other, um, where there's any type of abuse, it is not an option.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: It also doesn't work if one person is still actively betraying the other, and that means betrayal in all sorts of ways, right?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, um, physical, sexual, emotional infidelity, but also financial betrayal, whatever.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Betrayal and honest and dishonesty, it's not going to work.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: It also won't work if one or both of you are emotionally unavailable, not able to regulate your nervous system, not able to sit in the discomfort and have those hard conversations.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: The other more subtle sort of situation where it won't work is if one is saying, you know, let's do this kindly, let's do this consciously, as a way to perhaps dodge accountability or control the process.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: That you know, we don't need help, we can do this by ourselves, let's consciously uncouple as a means of controlling the process.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: So there are lots of situations where it will work, there are situations where it really, really won't.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I always say to couples who want to explore this pathway: get support.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Whether that's a coach, whether that's a psychologist, I would suggest get support from someone who knows how to do this, who has led other people through this, so you can each have independent support, and then you can have somebody who is leading you through this process.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody's experienced, who understands the process, and can hold space for both of you.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because to do it well, you need support, you need the support to continue to show up even when it's hard.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: This is not the easy option, this is not necessarily the easy, quick option.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard and it asks a lot of both of you.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, what does it actually look like in practice?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: What does it actually look like on the ground?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's messy, it's hard, but it's intentional, right?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it looks like starting at the end, how do you want your lives and family to look into 5, 10, 20 years' time?
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it starts by defining that.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Where do we want to be?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Do I want to stand next to you when significant things happen in the lives of our kids?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: If the answer is yes, then this is probably a path that you might like to look at.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: It starts with setting a shared intention.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: We want to do this respectfully, we want our kids to be as okay as they can.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: Let's come back to that when it gets hard.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: I often suggest with my couples that they write a manifesto, they sit together and they write a manifesto to themselves, to their kids, like a set of rules, a set of values.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: This is how we're going to do this, and you can come back to it when it feels hard.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's a re-centering or a grounding back into okay, this is hard right now, but this is why we're doing it.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: It looks like, and I've already said it, sitting in discomfort, sitting in the discomfort instead of avoiding it or um railing against it, walking away from it, or blowing things up further.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: You might cry in front of each other, you might get triggered.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I'm gonna say you will most likely get triggered.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: You might have the same fight or roll through the same argument for the 500th time, but you've got that manifesto, you've made that commitment to yourselves and to your family and to your future.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: You're committed to navigating that fight that you're having for the 500th time, to navigating that differently and finding a way through it and finding an outcome that is acceptable to both of you.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: It is about having facilitated, neutral, expert support.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, that's where I come in: someone to hold that space, to ask the hard questions, to slow things down, to bring someone up to speed if they're struggling or they're three steps behind, to help you find a clear, kind way through it, to help you regulate your nervous system, to help you have those hard conversations, to keep things grounded, to keep you on the track that you've defined for yourselves, that pathway through, the kind, conscious pathway through.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: It is about being clear and naming and honouring what's ending and what isn't.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: So your partnership as intimate partners, life partners, romantic partners is over.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: But if you've got kids, the paring part parenting, sorry, parenting partnership, that's really hard to say.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: The parenting partnership is not over, and it never is.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, our kids are 22 and 20, and we still have connection because of those kids.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: So your intimate partner relationship is ending, but your family isn't, and that's a huge reframe, okay?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: Reframe, reset the way you think about separation, divorce, and reorganizing life afterwards by really being clear on what's ending and what is not, and making a commitment to a different future for what is not ending.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: A conscious uncoupling approach or an uncoupling approach through separation divorce also looks like being really clear with your kids, age appropriate honesty, age and stage appropriate, no blame, no crap talking the other person, no good cop, bad cop, you know, he's right, I'm wrong, she's right, I'm wrong.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: Just gentle, clear reassurance that they are loved, that yes, things are changing, but their whole world is not falling apart, their family is not falling apart, it's just reshaping, it's just being reorganized.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: A really important part of a more conscious, more collaborative, more compassionate uncoupling is letting go.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Letting go of a couple of things, letting go of shame, blame, guilt, and letting go of a need to win or be right.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: This is not a legal strategy, it's a heart-based one, it's a human-centered approach.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: You're not trying to get the upper hand, you're not trying to screw the other person down, you're not trying to get the most, you're not trying to win, you're not trying to make it all your way, my way is the right way.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: You're trying to keep the damage to your family to a minimum.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: You're trying to keep your own humanity intact, your own integrity intact.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: You're trying to create a pathway through something that's really, really hard, a pathway that creates the least damage possible.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not easy, but it's worth it.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: And also, I want to say, if you are not able to do this, you haven't failed.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't mean that you're at the bottom of the divorce pack, right?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: Just because it doesn't work for your unique circumstances, doesn't work for your family, doesn't make you a failure.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: But the alternative when you can move through with kindness and compassion, the alternative of resentment, destruction, chaos, energy, high conflict, court battles, all of that, that's what really hurts everyone, especially kids.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: So if you can only even access parts of this through your process, if you can only manage parts of this through your separation, divorce, that's okay.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that still is helpful and supportive in protecting your kids.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: I want to talk more about still a family because that's a truth I live and I keep coming back to.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, for myself, but also for clients.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Even when the marriage ends, even when your relationship breaks down, the family doesn't have to.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: You have kids or maybe fur babies, you've had a joint life, a social circle, extended family, and if you've got kids, your kids bind you forever.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: You can still be a family in a new shape with a new rhythm.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: You can still prioritize each other as parents of your kids, as people who meant a lot to one another in the past and perhaps still do.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: You can still prioritize each other's dignity and you can still protect what really, really matters, and you can move through holding close to those values that you aligned, that you outlined, I'm sorry, in the beginning of this process.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: You can still treat each other with kindness, with courtesy, with respect, with care.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the best part of this, one of the greatest gifts of this, is that you get to model something incredibly powerful for your kids.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: That you can do really hard things, that you can do them with grace and compassion, that you that love can change form but still exist.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: You can model that endings don't always have to be explosive or cruel or overly destructive, they don't have to blow everything up, they can be a reorganization rather than a destruction of a family.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: They can be conscious, compassionate, even beautiful in their own way.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Endings can be completions done with grace, courage, compassion, kindness, and yep, even love.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what this work is about.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: When I support couples, parents through this process, whether they're still at that, should we do this?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: They're still deciding whether they are gently separating, consciously uncoupling, whatever words you want to use.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not just supporting them.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm holding space for the whole family, the kids who need safety, stability, reassurance, love, tenderness, they need emotional safety and regulation, they need routine.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm supporting nurturing the co-parenting relationship and helping parents shift their parenting focus because this, the co-parenting relationship, still needs nurturing even after the couple's relationship ends.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: It needs work.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's even about the dog, the family dog, who's just as confused by the new routine.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm in there supporting yes, each person, yes, the couple to uncouple, but the flow on effect for everybody is is huge, it's massive.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: This kind of coaching isn't just about logistics, navigating logistics, it's about creating an emotional container that supports everyone touched by the change.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone that's touched, impacted.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Affected by the change and shift in this couple relationship because when the adults feel seen, supported, steady, everyone else, the children can breathe a little easier too.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: So that is really the deep power of this work, that you get to do it with support, with the right support to unravel, uncouple with kindness and support your kids through it.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're sitting in that space of uncertainty, if you're asking the hard questions, or if you and your partner are talking, still circling, still figure out, figuring out what's next for you, what this is, what it looks like, if you're having those early conversations about separating, but you want to do it differently, you want to do it well, let's talk.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to figure all of it out all alone.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: I support individuals and couples to separate with as much clarity, care, and compassion as possible.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: We slow things down, we make space for what's really, really important to you, we plan forward, we look ahead, we future focus, and not just the legal stuff, but the emotional stuff, the practical stuff.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want someone to guide you through this kind of process, someone who really gets it on a live from a lived experience perspective, as well as having coached others through it, let's talk.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: There's a link in the show notes, as always, so you can book an intro call and we can discuss it, we can chat about where you're at, what's possible, and what support could look like for both of you.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: Not conscious uncoupling as a trendy pop culture phrase, but as a real grounded and challenging but genuinely beautiful way to separate with kindness, respect, compassion.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: This is the work I live and coach, holding space for all of it, for the nuance, the layers, the emotions, the complexity, and also the beauty and the very real logistics of doing moving through divorce, but doing it differently, doing it well.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: And let's finish with a thanks to Gwyneth and Chris for the term conscious uncoupling.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: We're trying our best to do it justice here.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: So wherever you're at with your marriage, your relationship, your separation, your divorce, your reorganisation of life and family afterwards, go gently.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: As always, I thank you for being here.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: There are plenty of places and spaces where you could be spending your time, and so I'm grateful that you're here and hope that you've got something from this episode.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: If there's someone you know who would benefit from listening to it, please share it with them.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: Until next week, bye for now.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Sally Ann Hartnell, divorce coach and strategist, and you've been listening to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: You can follow me on Instagram at Reflect Coaching, and if you can think of anyone who would love or benefit from listening to this episode, please share it with them.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'd also be so grateful if you would follow and review the podcast so we can get it in the ears of a whole lot more people just like you who are ready to reclaim and liberate themselves in life and love.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you'll join me next week for another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Until then,