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Beyond the Buzzword of Storytelling with Greg Logan · We Built This Brand

• Greg: I'd just come back from South by Southwest, and obviously everyone had heard all about this storytelling, and I saw the global CMO of Coca-Cola tell this big article on how they are now brand storytellers. And I was like, great. And then I'm looking at everything, reading everything. I'm like, he's not telling a story, he's just using the buzzword of storytelling. And I, I see it again and again. I just went to South by Southwest a few months ago, and AI was the biggest topic, but the number two topic was storytelling. I was like, wow, it's even grown since nine years ago. But everyone's just using the word storytelling to say, I have a story to tell about something. It's not actually about storytelling, and that's what I. I mind the movies for is the how of successful storytelling. Brain: Welcome to, we Built This Brand. I'm your host, as always Chris Hill, and with me today is Greg Logan. Greg, thank you for coming on. Greg: My pleasure. Thanks Chris. Brain: Absolutely. It's great to have you with us today. Um, you've got quite the interesting background in branding, storytelling, and, um, a lot of what we talk about on this podcast, which is building brands and building and telling stories with brands. So I'm really excited to dive in and talk about everything that you've done. Um. You know, your history and then, um, what you're doing today. So with that said, we typically start by just getting a little bit of your background, learning a little bit of your story, if you will. So, um, would just love for you to share with, um, the audience a little bit of like where, where you got your start and kind of what's led you into what you're doing, what you're doing now as an author. Greg: Yeah, well. I only ever wanted to do two things in my life. And from zero to 12 it was to be an actor like my uncle. And I was the lead in every school play. And I said to my mum, why does Uncle Peter give us really cheap Christmas presents? And she said, actors don't make very much money. And I was horrified, so I never stepped on stage again. That was the end of that career, and I loved the TV show, Bewitched. I loved, I loved what Darren Stevens did, and I said to my mom, what does he do? She said, he's a creative in advertising. And I said, he makes lots of money, doesn't he? And she said, yes. And I was like, that's what I'm gonna do. So all through high school, from even before I started high school, I knew that's what I wanted to do. And I left high school. And at 19 I, I got a job at Leo Burnett. Advertising one of the huge networks in the whole world. And I did really, really well, very quickly. It's, it's, it was just something that's in me. Um, I, I left Australia, I'm an Aussie. Um, I left Australia to travel backpacking for, for a year, and then I got a job at Leo Burnett Milan as the creative director at 25 years of age. I, I worked for Burnetts for about 17 years in different countries and loved every minute of it. Minute of it, I only left to start my own agency, which I sold to WPP after four years. Um, they put me into a much bigger branded design company to expand their advertising, and I got to understand tone of voice a lot better there. And then I. I was starting to have Groundhog Day, so it was over three decades and ISI left advertising and created reality TV shows. I won the best new reality TV format at Khan, at the big TV festival. I had a global deal with Warner Brothers. I got ca as an agent. I moved to LA and very quickly my life was completely. Different. Um, doing very well at that. I sold 12 reality TV shows in 18 months to the biggest networks and production companies, but nothing would happen. And I was getting a bit frustrated and I started seeing more and more why brands should become better storytellers. And I realized that no one was telling me how. So I thought I'm gonna do the how and uh. I put my two worlds together to create Narrativity, which is a brand storytelling business that takes the formulas, movies used to hook us in and that work perfectly for brands. So that's how I got to be here today. Brain: That is, that is fascinating. So when you say that you were, you were developing reality television shows and things like that, like, um, and you were selling 'em, were they, and you said nothing would happen. Does that mean like you would sell these ideas and then they would just sit on a shelf basically? Greg: Yeah, pretty much. So how reality TV works is, um, you obviously don't have to have a script. So you have to get the network or production company really excited about the idea and coming from advertising and spending decades answering a brief very creatively. I was able to do that very, very easily with a much broader scope than a 32nd commercial that I had to have all these proof points in. It would be more like, we need a cooking show that can work five nights a week, or we need a new dating show to, to follow this one, or, or whatever it was. I was great at creating ideas. I was great at creating something that was familiar but had a fresh take to it. And I was very good at creating a catchy name and a and a and a line. And what I would do is I would basically create an outline for the show, how it would work, and I would sell it for about five to $10,000 to these companies who would then say, we are experts in making this. We'll go off and make it. That's where it just would disappear into the ether. And, and look, I know there's quite a few of my shows that have been made, but they've evolved into something else, so they didn't have to pay me. But you know what, while, you know, everyone said you're doing so well, but I was like, well, nothing's actually being made. But the reality TV served its purpose. 'cause it, it took me to America. And it's where I had the idea for Narrativity and for the brand storytelling and putting these two worlds together. I, I was uniquely placed because I had such an incredible understanding of brands and what brands need, but I also understood storytelling and, and how movies and entertainment use all these incredible formulas to keep us engaged. And I was able to put those two things together. Brain: Yeah. So tell me a little bit about Narrativity then. So you've, you've gotten to this point where you've created all this, um, you know, all this IP and now you're starting this agency. Like what, what, what was the real focus or what is the real focus of Narrativity? Greg: Hmm. Well, as I said, it was to give brands the how of brand storytelling to stop being so rational and tell a far more engagingly emotional story that draws. Customers in, you know, the world's changed when I started in advertising. You could just put ads on TV and tell everyone your product points and it would work. But the world has changed. Now you can't just go out and tell people this is what we are and what our proof points are. You have to engage your audience, um, and you have to make them become fans, make them want you, and movies just do that so well, I mean. After. It was actually, I'd been reading about it for a while, brand storytelling, and I we're talking nine years ago and I went to South by Southwest and there was so many talks, really wonderful talks on why brand should become better storytellers and like everyone, I was convinced and on the plane. Home I, that's when the penny dropped. No one said how, and I thought, I'm gonna try and crack that. And I was literally back home in LA driving down Sunset Boulevard and I looked at the Hollywood sign and went, that is the how, like Hollywood is the most financially successful tor storyteller of all time. Movies put so much money, or studios put so much money into the movies, they have to get a return on investment to ensure they get a return on investment. They create the hero's journey to hook us in and keep us hooked all the way to the end. And they have all these other tricks to get us to go to the movie, to, to get us to buy the merchandise afterwards. Like all, all these different things. And I just drill down into all those things and knowing. What brands need and how they use messaging. I was able to translate them for, for, for brands. And when it started I was like, oh, I dunno if this is gonna work. And it, it kind of shocked me how well it worked. And brands also love it because it takes the subjectivity out out of creativity. They can see, they understand movies. It's a concept they understand and it lifts them up very quickly to a really big emotional benefit of what they do. And I have 11 different formulas and I give them 11 different outputs that they use across their business, but. Once right at the start, we do the enemy and superpower. Once they've decided their superpower, they never come back down. They just wanna keep going bigger and more emotional, and they just love it and they love seeing their business through a completely different lens. Brain: I, I think, I think you hit on something really big, which is that that how I felt that too. When all that stuff with story was coming out, I was like, okay, I'm hearing a lot about how story is cool, but what does that even mean? And I, I remember even going out and getting the book, um, story style structure and the principles of Screenwriting by Robert McKee, because I was told this is like a. What you need to be learning and what you need to know about story. And it helped me a lot think through story structure and things like that. Running a podcast business that has its own advantages, right? But in terms of branding, like I, I think, you know, it just, it always felt like something was missing. So I, I think you were spot on to say, Hey, look, how, how are we actually doing this? Greg: One thing, Chris, when I'd just come back from South by Southwest and obviously everyone. Heard all about this storytelling, and I saw the global CMO of Coca-Cola tell this big article on how they are now brand storytellers. And I was like, great. And then I'm looking at everything, reading everything. I'm like, he's not telling a story, he's just using the buzzword of storytelling. And I, I see it again and again, like I just went to South by Southwest a few months ago. And AI was the biggest topic, but the number two topic was storytelling. I was like, wow, it's even grown since nine years ago. But everyone's just using the word storytelling to say, I have a story to tell about something. It's not actually about storytelling, and that's what I. I mind the movies for is the how of Successful Storytelling. Brain: So let's dive into that a little bit too. So like, when you say the how of storytelling, how does that differ? Greg: Hmm hmm. So, movies use all these great things and the, the most powerful and long, longest one is the Hero's Journey at 12 Steps. And I've formulated. A homepage to trigger all those 12 steps of the hero's journey. So, um, it keeps you scrolling from top to bottom of your homepage, but a brand doesn't work in a two and a half hour condensed format like a movie does. So that was me using my knowledge of brands and how a brand works. So. What I do for my clients is I create their genre defining the kind of story they want to tell their enemy and superpower. And their superpower is their brand essence, their quest, which their customer mission. Their love story, which is their main story, their backstory, which is their about us, their controlling idea, which is their customer value proposition, their synopsis, which is their key proof points. And I've broken these down, and each one of those has a formula to get us there quickly and more importantly, to put their audience at the heart of every single formula. So each time. So when we do the quest. The brand is not the hero, it's the audience. And so I go, who's your audience now? What value do you add to their lives? And all of a sudden you become relevant to them rather than just talking about how great we are. So yeah, I have a full suite. Um, and breaking it down, um. Creates the how. Brain: That makes sense. Yeah. Breaking it down, figuring out, um, you know, that, I mean, even who the hero of the story is. I mean, we know it's the customer, right? But like, what hero is it? You know, is it Loose Skywalker? Is it, um, you know, Indiana Jones? Is it, you know, Mickey Mouse? You know, who is that character? Who is that person you're trying to go after? I'm sure that persona plays a lot into it as well. Greg: For sure, for sure. And especially when we. Create a distinctive tone of voice. Um, I actually, brands will default to the corporate buzzwords. They know and go, our personality is trustworthy, uh, genuine, uh, passionate, um, blah blah, blah. And I go, if you had like a famous actor or a famous person to represent you, you had all the money in the world, you could afford anyone. Who would it be? And then they tell me and I go, yeah, but why? And then they, they create some really interesting personality traits that, that then inform a more interesting tone of voice. So yeah, it's just seeing a brand through the lens of movies and emotion and the customer. Makes a, makes a huge difference. Brain: Yeah, I think it, I think it absolutely does. And it's, um, you know, when you're, when you're pulled into a story, you're more likely to be involved in the, the narrative or want to be involved in that narrative, I think, or avoid the narrative depending on, I guess, the story that's being told. If it's, you know, insurance, like I think of Mayhem or something like that from, um, what's the name, what's the, what is that brand? Why can't I think of it right now? Um. You know the one insurance I'm talking about? Greg: Yes, I do. Brain: Oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm blanking on this. It's gonna drive me crazy. Greg: The actor from Whiplash? Brain: Yes. Greg: Yes. We'll, we'll, we'll think of it. Um, but Brain: Allstate, that's who it is. Greg: Allstate. Thank you. Brain: Yeah. That's gonna drive me crazy. Greg: But yeah, they, they're really engaging, you know, it's insurance, but Brain: mm-hmm. Greg: People don't do it enough. Brain: Yeah. Yeah. Or they, they try to follow maybe a basic formula that they think works and doesn't get them in the direction that they, they want to go, or they end up just retelling their story without thinking about the customer first. I think it's important to be customer first. Of course, when you're thinking about your brand. Greg: Yeah. I mean, so many brands say, you know, where. We're really consumer focused now, where we put the consumer first and it's like, well, I hope so. Like why all of a sudden is that a new thing? But, but they say that and then they just talk about themselves. And my clients are having phenomenal success because we put the audience at the heart of it and, and I ask them, what's their greatest tension? Not yours. What's your audience's greatest tension? Now let's start our story with that, because that's what the movies do. If the movies don't have tension, you don't have a movie. We, we go to the cinema to see that conflict and we, we want to see it resolved. So if you can start a story with your audience's greatest tension, they're hooked. They're in, they go, oh my God, yes. I hate that you understand me. Yes, that's my life. Help me with it. Then you talk about yourself and how you solve that greatest tension. And if you could end the story with their greatest love in life and remove yourself and just give them their happy ending, Brain: that's awesome. Um, is it always the hero's journey that we have to follow when we're storytelling? Greg: No, no, no, no, no. As I said, the hero journey works for a two three hour saka. You just need to follow the, the classic movie of the story structure of the beginning and middle and end problem. To overcome a solution to how to overcome it, and then a happy ending with a moral to the story if you, if you just follow those three things. But as I said, if you make that problem to overcome your audience's problem, then that's powerful. Um, and that's why I, that's why I broke down like the Quest formula is what do you do, who do you do it for, and what value do you add to their lives? It's one statement, it's not a full story, but it. It tells people a story. So for instance, my quest for my businesses, uh, what do I do, do? Turning who for businesses and the value I add to their lives. Turning businesses into loved brands. That's a story in itself, but it's a story that my audience wants to see achieve. They want to turn their business into a love brand. And in the movies, movies, work. A hero has a quest at the start of the film that we agree with. We watch the film all the way to the end. We're not satisfied until that quest is achieved and that quest is never further us away than 10 minutes before the end of the film, but somehow, miraculously, it always gets achieved. So if you can create a quest for your business that your audience wants to see achieved, that's invaluable. So that's, that's the Quest formula. If you can, if you can, you can follow it. What do you do? Uh, turning, helping, freeing, enabling, empowering who for put your audience there and make it your biggest possible audience. I said businesses. It could be the world, it could be people, um, it could be your category. And then what value do you add to their lives? Don't explain how you do it. Just talk the biggest possible. Benefit. Um. And your audience will see why you matter to them. Brain: Want to launch a podcast without the hassle? Humble pod makes podcasting easy from concept to launch. We'll help you create a professional engaging show, already have a podcast. We handle editing, show notes, transcriptions, and even video production so you can focus on your content. With our tailored services, you get high quality production, seamless publishing, and expert support at every step, whether you're starting fresh or leveling up. Humble Pod ensures your podcast sounds amazing and reaches the right audience. Visit humble pod.com to get started today. That's, that's really neat. Um, do you have any, like, I'm just curious if you've had any brands you've worked with that are, that you're able to share that might say, Hey, look, we really made a big transformation. Here's how we did it. Greg: Sure. Well, I'll let, let's, while we're on the quest, uh, let's talk about one, uh, in the uk and they were a funder, independent funder for small to medium businesses, and they were number three. And when I went to work with them, uh, their name's Ultimate Finance. And when we got to the Quest, they said, Greg, we don't need to do this 'cause we've just spent six months doing this ourselves internally. I was like, great, awesome. What is it? They said to be the number one independent funder for small to medium businesses in the uk. And I said, that is terrible. And they were quite upset and they went, what's wrong with being, wanting to be number one? I said. Nothing is your business objective, but as your customer mission, think about it. Who's your audience? There's small business owners who need funding, so they're in a world of financial pain. They can't sleep at night, and they come to you and you say, you, you wanna be number one. You're not gonna become number one. You're gonna become number 10 if that's what you say. And then they got it. They went, okay, so we did that. Quest formula, what do you do? Relieving who? For business owners and the value add to their lives relieving business owners from the pressures they're under, that became their main message. Within six months, they became the number one independent funder for small to medium businesses in the UK because their audience, when they can't sleep at night, they're in the world of financial pain. They came to them and said, we're gonna relieve you of the pressures you're under. That's what the audience wanted to hear. Hugely successful. That simple, simple statement transformed their business. Another example, A different, there are different, that was the Quest formula. I'll do the love story formula. Brain: Oh yeah. I'm curious to know about that. Greg: So the reason I call it the love story is 'cause when your audience hears it, they will fall in love with you. And it's the, it's the story, the formula I just mentioned before, a beginning, a middle, and end. Here's the thing. Brands always put themselves in, in front. So 1907 water. Um, I'm not sure if you've had it because it's, um, it's in America, but it wasn't, and there it's a beautiful New Zealand water and the owner came to me, he'd been pitching. Four, uh, three years in a row to Whole Foods. All he wanted to do was get into Whole Foods and every year he would go and say, we're from New Zealand. And they said, we've got three New Zealand waters. We are from a naturally alkaline source. We've got 10 of those. Um, we have, uh, we come from an ancient artesian, well, well we've got eight of those and ours is healthy and beautiful tasting. And I went, all water's beautiful and healthy tasting go away. And you are more expensive than all of them. So. They, they led with their rational, incredibly rational messages. Whole foods could counteract them with rational and it didn't add up. And four strikes you out if you go four times and say, no, you can never go back. So he came, the owner came to me and said, Greg, I need to tell a different story. I said, great. Let's start with your audience's greatest tension. Who's your audience? Health conscious consumers. Okay. What's their tension? He said, um, they don't have enough pure naturally New Zealand alkaline water in their lives. And I went, well, that is rubbish. And we came to, their lives are busy and getting busier. 'cause I said, remove yourself from the equation. It's not about you is health conscious consumers, what's their, well they're, they're really busy and they're getting busy. Great. Now how do you solve that? And then. That led to this story, um, and starting with the tension. Now more than ever, we crave the uncomplicated, the unadorned, and untainted. 1907 Water is nature's remedy for the modern world. From this ancient artesian source, water continually rises to the surface to rebalance and replenish our bodies from daily stresses. All we do to this constant gift from nature is bottle. It isn't that refreshing. They told that story to Whole Foods and they signed them up nationally and, and you can see it very different. They weren't leading with all their messages. They just told a beautiful story about, about their product and the role it plays in their customer's life. And Deion the owner said, why this year? And they pointed to the screen and said, you understand, our customer now talking about success. They were only in New Zealand. He achieved his dream of getting in Whole Foods. They signed him up nationally, but now they're in, uh, trader Joe's, Ralph's, uh, Vons Air one. They all through America, they have made millions of dollars from that one story. Brain: Yeah. Well, it makes such an impact, right? Like when, when you're just talking about Cool. It's from New Zealand and it's artisanal. Nice. I I, I've got plenty of artisanal water in my selection. You know, I, I tend to be a little bougie in my water taste. I, I do like, um, like Tobo Chico, for instance, is my, my personal go-to bubbly water. Um. And you know, for me, like you telling me, that story makes me go, oh, I should check them out. Like, that sounds like an interesting brand. They've got a story that, you know, speaking to me, you know, it's refreshing, it's gonna help me through my day, or be a part, like all of that stuff. It, it may, it invites me into the story of the brand as opposed to. Cool. We're from New Zealand. I mean, I love things from New Zealand, like Flight of the Concords and any, you know, Tikai and any, any of the wonderful foods that come from New Zealand as well. But, um, you know, I at the same point, like, that's not gonna make me want it. What's gonna make me want it is more of a story about why it's important to me. Greg: Exactly. And, and when you start a story with now, more than ever, we crave the uncomplicated, the Unor and unt. You're in, right? And, and when you end that story with all we do to this constant gift from nature is bottle, it isn't that refreshing? It's a perfect, oh, here's a little trick. That little question at the end is so powerful. And here's the mistake brands make. They always start a story with a question. Uh, are you tired of your normal water? And, and your, so our brains are hardwired to ans to answer any question that's put in front of us. So when you say, are you tired of your current water? You love your current water? So you go, no, no, I'm not tired of it. You block yourself up from the rest of the message. But if you end your story with, isn't that what you want? Don't we all want that? Isn't that refreshing? You answer it. Yes. That is. So our brains will answer it, but pose your question at the end, not at the start. Brain: That's clever. I hadn't, I had never thought of it like that. That makes, that makes a lot of sense. I'm like, Hmm, where can I use that now? That's my new question. That's, that's fascinating. That's a, I mean, 'cause yeah, because you're, you're, you're also not leading them, you're also leading to a more generalized question at the end, which even if it is a yes or a no, like you, you have a lot more chance of them walking away going. You know, that does sound kind of refreshing. Maybe I should check that out, as opposed to, like you said, closing it off. So, Greg: because you're, you are engaging them to answer it and they're nodding going. Yeah, like on my website, I, I talk about the process I do with my clients and I say it's, it's fast engaging and, um, free of all the bs. Isn't that the story you wanted to hear? So they're going, yes. Yeah, that is the story I want to hear. Um, it's a very powerful thing. Um, so use how our brains are wired, but you'll stuff yourself up if you start a question, because unless your question is definitely a yes and, and often it's a no, it's not gonna work. Brain: Yeah. Yeah. But if you stood around for the message, I think that makes an impact too. 'cause even if you say no, you've heard the message. So you may walk away and go, but you know what? I'm aware of that brand and I, I keep seeing 'em in Whole Foods. Now maybe, maybe I'll try a little bit. Greg: Actually, if you like water, you should try 9, 10 0 7. Water it. It sounds weird, but it is different. Like it is, it has a silkiness that comes from. This Artesian source. Um, and uh, when, when I was talking to Dion and I said, okay, so how do you solve it? And he said, Greg, I don't know. Seriously, all we do is we just kneel down in this cave and we put a bottle in and put a cap on. We did nothing. And I said, well, that's not true. Their lives are busy and getting busier and you're the simplest thing in their world. That's what you do. And that's, that was the happy ending. All we do to this constant gift for nature is bottle it. Um, so yeah, it's a beautiful water to try it out. Brain: Yeah, I will. I'll check it out. That sounds awesome. Um. Well, cool. Well, Greg, this, I'm, I'm walking away from this with, um, a lot of really good insight here. I really appreciate your time today. This is really cool. Um, as we wrap up the conversation, I always like to end with a question of what brand do you admire the most right now? And I might add one onto that just because we've talked movies and entertainment as well. Maybe What, what is a, what is a, um. I won't, I won't limit it to movies, but what, what is a story for you that you admire the most? Greg: Sure. Okay, so brand that's doing story. Brand storytelling really well or brand I admire right now is Brain: any, any brand that you admire right now? Greg: My number one job with my clients is Stop them conforming to the conventions of the category. And Liquid Death is subverting and twisting every convention of the category in its head on its head in the most pervasive way. And boy is it working. And you know, I saw it in tv. I saw it in advertising. People are just so nerv in business. People are so nervous to do anything different, but to me the the greatest risk is not doing anything different. The more you sound the same. That's why I think Liquid Death is doing such a brilliant job as a brand and with its storytelling and just doing things really, really differently. So if we take that into tv, there's things like. White, Lotus. I love, love, love White, lotus, um, a clever construct. Every season we're in a different white lotus. We're in a different location, different characters, but we can thread them through and they can come in and out playing with a formula again. And it's really engaging and it's different and it's hugely successful because of that. And I would have to say in the last few years, movies that I've just really loved. Uh, uh, last year was poor things, um, which Amber Stone won the Oscar for Best Actress. It was one of the most wonderfully inventive, certainly visually, the most visually fresh film I've seen maybe ever. Probably my favorite maybe of all time, but certainly this decade, uh, was parasite, um, and what parasite did really, really well. And what Hollywood doesn't do enough or brands do enough, and I actually think Liquid Death is doing this is when you mix genres, you create something much fresher and you expand your audience. So if you think about parasite, it was a comedy drama thriller. And there was, there was, there's another one there too. But it was just all those things and it just made it so engaging and you're like, wow, this is so different and so fresh. Um, white Lotus does it, liquid death does it? Uh, poor things did it. So if you can mix genres, you are gonna expand your audience and you're gonna entertain your audience much more because it just feels so much fresher. Brain: Yeah, that's, that's great. Um, I mean, liquid death for sure, we've heard that a lot of the show. Um, and that's not a bad thing. I, I think they really are doing a lot of what you're saying, and I think that they, at some point we need to call out to them to interview them. I mean, honestly, at this point they, we just, we hear about 'em so much. But, um, yeah, I love the way there's subverting, um. Their space, if you will, because yeah, it's liquid death, but all it is is water, you know? Or flavored water, or carbonated water. And, um, the themes, the things that they've done, I'm, I'm a big fan of 'em. They did that. I'll never forget the collab they did with Elf Cosmetics 'cause it was just so out there. It was like, okay, they're, they're making corpse paint with El Elf cosmetic. For, you know, for people, and it was a real product you could go buy too. It wasn't just some silly ad that they were doing and just all those things combined just bring so much more brand awareness to even an audience that wouldn't consider it before. Greg: Well, they've just done, it's been all over the internet, but they've just done that commercial where all the actors for the first time were all ai. So everything was ai, including the actors Now. What was incredible about that was you would think that per the brand that did that would get such a hard time from the world saying, this is the end for movie making. This is the end for actors. This is the end. But it was so funny. It was so well written. It was so well done and they, they owned it. Like they said, we did this all in ai. Like, look what you could do. But the storytelling was so genius that everyone applauded them rather than gave them a hard time about it. So that's. That's pretty clever. Brain: Yeah, I think, I think the way they leveraged AI for that, for that ad I thought was really, really neat. And I think when you still have someone at the core who's telling the story and it's not being left up to a robot to tell the story or to tell the dialogue, it makes a big difference in how that overall delivery comes out. Especially when you have, you know, a human editor maybe at the end helping with the timing and the cuts and the. Um, the generation of the content, like there's, there's a world in which I think AI will be a huge help for media and content. Um, but there's also, I mean, you know, I think it'll be more help than harm in the end. We just aren't there with how to. Really physically deal with that in a lot of cases. And some people are just so afraid of it. Um, you know that they're running the hills, but the people that embrace it create incredible content. I could go on a whole other interview about your conversation about that. Um. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And how it's impacting everything, but it is, it is helpful and it can be, can be used for good. So Greg: I'm using it, but it's how you use it. It's how you use it. That's Brain: absolutely, yeah. Use it to leverage your skills, not to, you know, be a way to save you from work, if that makes sense. That's my, that's my thesis anyway. Um, well, cool. Well, Greg, thank you so much. This is great. Great, great to have you on. And, um, where can people connect with you? Where can they find out about you and, um, where can we get your book creating a Blockbuster brand? Greg: Yeah, it's pretty simple. Go to blockbuster brands.com, um, and all the info's there, but Amazon, of course, um, uh, yeah, blockbuster brands.com. Um, my business is narrativity.com. Um, if anyone's interested in. How their story currently stacks up. I've created a really cool quiz that will test your current story. I've broken down all the elements of Make a Great Story, and that's storytelling quiz.com. So if you go to storytelling quiz.com, you'll get a a messaging health check, which is something brands never, ever, ever do. Brain: Yeah, I'm, I'm, I think I'm gonna go take that quiz right now. That sounds like a lot of fun. Really helpful. Well, Greg, thank you so much for coming on. I, I do appreciate it. Greg: It's been really great, Chris, so we could have talked for. I had another few hours I'm sure, but Brain: thanks for checking out this episode of We Built This Brand. Don't forget to like and subscribe on your player of choice. You can also keep up with the podcast on we built this brand.com. 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