Latest / The R4R Podcast: Road to Zero / The Research Behind Running for Resilience

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The Research Behind Running for Resilience · The R4R Podcast: Road to Zero

0:00
Welcome to the after iPod. Now a couple of years ago when
0:04
Briny announced our goal of suicide free ACT by 2033, it was
0:09
like a 10 year goal. And a couple of months after
0:12
that we, a few of us did a thought exercise and we were
0:15
like, all right, so the 10 year goal.
0:17
But what if we had to gun to our head?
0:19
We had to get it done in six months and we had an idea of why
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don't well, this exercising with friends caper was pretty good.
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What have we got Some academic research done on it, some get a
0:30
bit of credibility about it and then tried to get media on the
0:33
the findings of that. And that was that was kind of
0:36
our idea. But anyway, Fast forward a
0:38
couple of years, you know, Canberra's not suicide free.
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So there's still a lot of work to go.
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But we have had some research done on our for our own.
0:45
How that came about, we'll explain later.
0:47
But to discuss research for resilience, I have Doctor
0:51
Anneliese Naylor, Doctor Andrew Flood and Professor Joanna
0:54
Tweedy. Welcome to the hour for Hour pod
0:55
guys. Thanks.
0:56
Thanks for coming us. Thanks, exciting.
0:58
To be Yeah, that. Excited to be here.
1:00
Thank you. Awesome, awesome.
1:02
So just for the listeners, we'll go around the horn.
1:05
We'll start with you first. First, just Joe.
1:08
Just Joe. My dad's a professor.
1:11
He makes me call him professor. OK, Yeah.
1:13
So just pay, pay more respect to the to the titles.
1:17
But yeah, Joe, what what I guess is your background or your,
1:21
your, what's the word, the what you normally study on?
1:27
Sure, no problem. My my expertise, my background.
1:30
So, like Annalise and Andrew, I'm a researcher at the
1:35
University of Canberra's Research Institute for Sport and
1:38
Exercise. I teach into the discipline of
1:41
sport and exercise. I also hold a position at
1:44
Florida State University where I supervise the research and teach
1:48
as well. My that's where I got my PhD in.
1:53
My PhD is actually around sports consumer psychology, so I
1:57
studied fandom behaviour in sports fans and the connection
2:03
that they have with sport. But prior to that I was actually
2:06
a physiotherapist. So that my research cuts across
2:10
a few different areas. But that background makes some
2:12
sense of it and I'll let the others introduce.
2:16
And I'm excited to be talking about this work, so.
2:20
Andrew. Yeah, thanks.
2:21
I like Doctor Flatson. No please, Andrew's fine.
2:25
I like how when Joe talks about Florida State she puts a slight
2:28
American accent on how did anyone.
2:29
Else the Gators. Oh.
2:31
Seminoles. Seminoles, Yeah.
2:35
Yeah, so I'm at the University of Canberra Research Institute
2:38
for Sport and Exercise, but also in the discipline of psychology.
2:41
So I teach in the undergraduate programme, but my research is
2:46
mostly looked at neuropsychology and pain.
2:49
So we've looked at how people experience pain, the differences
2:52
in that experience. We've looked a little bit at
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chronic pain and we're starting to look at endometriosis.
2:58
And so some sort of really interesting links with R for R
3:02
and physical activity is medicine and, and how that can
3:07
be useful not just for mental health, but also for physical
3:10
health. And so I'm really excited to be
3:14
exploring that with our for our and seeing what's happening.
3:18
My interests also lie in physical activity.
3:20
So I've done a lot of work with analyse in physical activity and
3:24
having physically active and understanding the importance of
3:26
physical activity can be beneficial for many reasons.
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So yeah, that's why I'm here and and excited to sort of chat
3:34
about the research that we've been doing led by these two
3:37
guys. Really awesome.
3:39
Yeah, and I'm Annalise so also with UC Rise and also working
3:44
the discipline of psychology alongside Andrew, also teaching
3:47
into the undergrad programme there.
3:50
My kind of research area is around how we can understand and
3:55
create a physical activity environment that everyone's kind
3:59
of welcome to and that everyone gets what they want out of it.
4:02
So it's not just showing up to exercise, it's showing up to
4:06
meet people, get the mental health benefits, learn more
4:11
about a movement, a sport, whatever it might be.
4:13
So really a full circle approach to understanding physical
4:17
activity and what every individual gets out of that.
4:20
So start abroad, but slowly starting to come into some more
4:24
individual characteristics. So looking at that through our,
4:26
for our, but also through endometriosis populations and
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various other groups as well. Awesome.
4:32
So as you can tell, a bit of a dream team.
4:34
Somehow we've managed to get a dream team together.
4:36
The perfect Yeah all different backgrounds to study what what
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we have I guess just for a bit of context how this sort of all
4:42
came to be was Murray Bruce for our legend.
4:46
Thank you. Murray.
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He he met Jan Shattuck, who was in the UC the civic engagement
4:53
or the. Like the?
4:54
Partnership, Partnerships, part of UC at A at an event and
5:00
Murray was, as he does, promoting AFRA or talking
5:03
positively about AFRA. And yeah, one thing led to
5:06
another and that's through Jan. That was how we launched the run
5:09
in partnership with the UC Stars run club.
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I think about 8-8 months ago on campus at UC.
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It's still going Tuesday, Thursday mornings.
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Good job to Lucky and the crew. But through Jan she started,
5:20
Yeah, she really loved it, was a huge supporter.
5:24
But she I think she wanted to try and find a way for the UNI
5:27
to help out for more other than just shouting the coffees.
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And I think, yeah, she introduced us a bit over a year
5:33
ago now, maybe like not then even like 2024.
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And I think the original idea was to have some students maybe
5:41
do their. Like on.
5:43
His project on his project on it, but then you guys decided
5:46
you wanted to do it instead of the students.
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So like 1, I guess high level. Just a quick high level summary,
5:52
Joe, what the research we've done or you've done is about.
5:56
And then why did yeah, why did you guys push the students
5:58
aside? Take, take the lead.
6:01
Thank you, thank you. And 1st, I should say that we
6:05
are so grateful to be here. This partnership has been
6:08
something that we all have really enjoyed.
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We're really proud of the work that we've done and it's been
6:14
just an absolute privilege. So we're grateful for the trust
6:18
you put in US, you, Matt, and the whole life of our team and
6:22
the community. So thank you.
6:24
Thank you. So much.
6:26
Thank you. And the call came from whom Jan,
6:30
I think, reached out where you see rise and the very quickly I
6:35
ended up going to the meetings. So Angus, our research support
6:39
person said, oh, I think you'll be interested in this, Joe, you
6:42
should go and rocked up to the cafe, said to someone that I
6:48
knew I was meeting or meeting Ben Alexander.
6:52
And they say, oh, he's over there.
6:54
And I said, oh, how do you know if you met him before?
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And I said, oh, no, I saw him play rugby.
6:59
And I was like, that's weird. And I had absolutely no idea
7:05
that about your rugby background.
7:08
And I think it took me a couple weeks to work.
7:11
I am Victorian, I should qualify.
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I'm from so Go Cats. But yeah, that was.
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But perhaps that meant it was a nice background to meet you and
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hear really the work you were doing and knew that it was
7:25
important work. And I saw ways that we could
7:32
service our for our in through research.
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Jen went to work elsewhere. Before she left, I promised her
7:38
that I would say this through. And it was someone at UC Rise
7:43
actually, who said, Joe, you really care about this, you can
7:47
just do it yourself. And I thought, can I really?
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Because I was asking all these questions about honest students
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and they said no, you can do it yourself.
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And then I thought, well I need an A-Team.
7:59
So I've got the little A-Team of Annalise and Andrew from the
8:03
discipline of psychology. And they just jumped on board
8:06
and said said yes. And we decided that we would
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start off trying to understand the experiences of participants
8:16
in AFRA. AFRA and we really approached it
8:20
knowing that this was a community LED initiative.
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So researchers love to measure things.
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We love to come in with our scales and our tools and measure
8:29
things. But we didn't want to do that.
8:31
And we deliberately sought to get a broad understanding of
8:35
what was going on, really respecting the community and
8:40
then, yeah, trying to understand what what people were
8:45
experiencing and their perceived benefits and why people come to
8:49
our, for our. And I guess you knew that
8:53
something special was going on and you've been.
8:56
And we thought, well, let's try to understand that.
8:59
And so we went through all that normal ethics approval and,
9:03
yeah, got to work interviewing people so we can talk more about
9:06
that. Yeah.
9:07
So do you want quickly just like guess the method is?
9:10
Just to like. Frame the actual.
9:12
It was subjective, subject subjective or.
9:15
Yeah, yeah. Qualitative research.
9:17
Yeah. So qualitative research means
9:20
really that we're, we're not coming in with quantitative
9:24
measures to try to measure someones.
9:27
I guess we could have gone in and said, right, we're going to
9:30
measure mental health, we're going to measure physical
9:32
literacy. We're going to give everyone
9:34
pedometers. That's more quantitative work
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and qualitative. We're getting a really rich
9:38
picture by listening to people so interviews.
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So we, we recruited from the community, so people that wanted
9:48
to talk to us about their experiences and we asked a lot
9:53
of questions, open questions. So people are using their own
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words and telling us their experiences.
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Of course, that means it's only, we only interviewed those that
10:04
put their hand up to talk to us. So we definitely don't claim
10:07
that we understand the experience of every single
10:10
individual that comes to our, for our, or more broadly than
10:14
that. But I think yeah, interviews
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we've done over 25 S, 25 hours worth of transcripts and
10:23
interviews. So then from that Annalise and I
10:26
both did the interviews and then you really live and breathe that
10:34
data, so you spend time now. 25 hours, sorry and you've
10:37
mentioned May just that important thing.
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Yeah, it was is. You said that the data gets
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saturated at a certain point where you don't need to do.
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More. That's it.
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So we get to a point where we're confident that new, new things
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are not really emerging from patterns.
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Patterns and patterns. Yeah.
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We're seeing patterns where we're understanding, we're
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understanding. We feel like we've got a clear
11:02
picture of what's going on and we don't.
11:05
Adding more people is not going to give us necessarily new
11:08
information. Is that fair summary?
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Yeah, I think so. And and maybe it's a bit of
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background for me coming into this project.
11:15
It was really about understanding what and why like
11:18
what is happening in our, for our because where we recognise
11:21
that we're coming into this trying to understand the sort of
11:23
characteristics of our for our. So like for participants, what
11:27
is it? And then the why was why, why
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are you engaging initially? What drew you to it and why do
11:34
you keep coming back and why is it working for you?
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And in some cases, why not? So I think that what and why was
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really what we were getting to and continue to interview people
11:44
until we understood that or felt like we understood that and we
11:47
got some repetition in responses and, and some patterns started
11:51
to emerge. So I think that's yeah, the
11:53
background and where I think these guys really went to with
11:57
that approach. And it's not about putting
11:59
numbers on things. I think that just distils it
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down too much and generalises something that we don't know a
12:04
lot about. Like you've spoken a lot about
12:06
saying something's happening, something's working.
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And these guys were able to think to extract that a little
12:12
bit more and and yeah, wrap it up a little bit and package it
12:17
to to something that, yeah, some fascinating, fascinating
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interviews coming out of that. Well, what were what were some
12:24
of the findings and can we share any stories that you guys
12:28
learned along the way? Yeah, so, so interesting
12:33
thinking about the findings. Like everyone has slightly
12:35
different experiences, but a lot of common experiences as well.
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And that's what's been really nice.
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I think there's, we've spoken a lot of how you, so when you're
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doing these interviews data, you try and figure out how you're
12:48
going to understand it. And we spend a lot of time of
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how are we unpacking that and how are we understanding that?
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And of course that comes with that's how Joe and I have
12:57
decided to understand that and what's going on.
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And I think my favourite way of looking at it is each
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individual's having their, this is a very physical literacy
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phrase is having their own kind of journey through R for R and
13:10
that can start different for different people.
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So, you know, people do come because it's a run club.
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I get to go for a run. Other people are starting that
13:19
journey because they want to meet new people.
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So while that initial experience is different, a lot of them are
13:25
having common experiences throughout, like knowing you
13:29
know, it's, it's always there, it's a circuit breaker, these
13:33
kind of ideas. They can break like in their
13:36
week or if they're just stuck. In like, yeah, it's, it's on
13:39
every Wednesday afternoon, 6:00 PM at the dock, rain, hail or
13:43
shine. It's there.
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I can go every week after work. I can talk to someone that's not
13:47
in my workplace or at uni or whatever it might be.
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It's that moment to step out of your everyday 9 to 5 routine if
13:55
you want to say that and do something new.
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And that's like when that came through, I was like, wow, I
14:01
like, I never have thought of something like that.
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And I don't know if that's something we originally said,
14:06
like you guys originally set out to do.
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You don't think that comes from social connection, but it does
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like a whole new lens of a whole new group of people to connect
14:15
to. And again, similar story but
14:18
different coming to Canberra. A lot of new people came to
14:21
Canberra, didn't know how to meet people outside of a
14:24
workplace or just in general. I came met these whole different
14:28
people, different walks of life, different experiences.
14:30
And they're like how valuable that I have an entirely new
14:34
community. And I'm like, that's, that's
14:37
probably the part that stood out for me.
14:38
And I think that's, if you go back to that journey where I
14:40
started at the start, that's one of those core pillars that's
14:43
keeping people along for that ride, whatever else is going on
14:47
in their life. And I think that's probably the
14:49
part that really stood out for me.
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And I was like, I love this. Yeah, that's yeah, perfect
14:55
explanation of the journey and that I think that physical
15:01
activity is still a key part of AFRA and it's a hook that draws
15:07
people to R for R in and a lot of people talk about that being
15:12
their primary initial motivation.
15:14
So when we, and this is Andrew. So whilst Annalise and I spent a
15:19
lot of time coding and recoding, coding and recoding the data is
15:22
what you do to come up with codes and themes and pull out
15:25
the main ideas. Andrew is the king of distilling
15:29
things and, and, and sense making.
15:32
And I think that is hugely been hugely valuable.
15:35
And he talks about active ingredients and I think that's a
15:39
wonderful way to put this. And the physical activity is one
15:42
of the key active ingredients. So when people talk about what
15:46
brings them to the to our for our initially, often it is that
15:50
physical activity and then we know that that is in itself
15:59
beneficial to people's mental health.
16:01
So that's a key, a key feature that I would say the other thing
16:08
from physical activity, you also have social connection as
16:12
another key active ingredients with Anna Lisa's touched on.
16:15
And so people are drawn to the the run club or the any other
16:20
activity that they might be knowing as well that perhaps
16:24
they want to connect with people.
16:26
So life transitions are huge. So we heard from a lot of people
16:29
who are new to Canberra who are going through a divorce, who are
16:33
having a difficult time for a host of of reasons, life
16:38
transitions, retirement, new job.
16:40
And AFRA is providing them an outlet for physical activity.
16:46
It is informal, which we know Australians are looking to more
16:52
and more for informal exercise. So people are moving away from
16:55
organised sport and activity and love the informality.
16:58
There's no fee, there's no sign up.
17:00
I just rock up and move. So when you're removed all those
17:04
barriers for someone to get their physical activity in and
17:09
be amongst people, that's huge. So the social connection piece
17:12
is the next one and people talk about that with or without
17:16
conversation, which I think is a wonderful piece.
17:20
So I can connect with someone just by running beside them or
17:25
walking beside them or being amongst people.
17:28
And depending on where people are in their own lives and their
17:32
own journey with our Farrar, for some people that's for those
17:36
early engagement is just being there amongst people and
17:39
particularly those that are struggling.
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Sometimes that's enough to just know that I'm amongst people and
17:44
that sense of social connection. Interestingly, nobody that we
17:50
spoke to said the run became more important throughout their
17:53
journey. Always the social connection
17:56
becomes more important. And that like the whole thing.
17:59
Yeah, no. Think about the we've been
18:01
trying for a while about it and I think the biggest pleasant
18:05
surprise for me is that if all what you guys are finding maps.
18:07
Certainly my own personal experience of art FRA because in
18:10
the early days it was we chose Wednesday night because it was
18:13
like the midweek break where I could get some exercise in
18:15
before park run on Saturday. So it's like yeah, very
18:20
selfishly it was yeah, we were supporting it mostly to keep
18:23
shooter and I fit and and then. But then gradually as the years
18:26
rolled on I realised actually, no this isn't about running.
18:28
It's about the community and making friends.
18:31
But then why I've been like, want to really keep talking more
18:35
about the what you guys found is because it's yeah, I just want
18:39
to make sure I'm not the only person that's been feeling like
18:41
the, that this there was something special brewing and,
18:45
and yeah, can you, Andrew, can you expect more of the
18:47
ingredients? Like I guess the exercise was
18:49
the big one than the community. Yeah, social connection and
18:52
within that can be a sense of community, so.
18:55
Informality another. Yeah, that's all the way in
18:58
which that's delivered. So the features of our for our
19:01
that deliver that easy access to physical activity, social
19:05
connection, the other one. Yeah, maybe I'd like to to
19:09
expand on that social connection thing because it's it's quite
19:12
easy to say and makes a lot of sense.
19:14
But like I think emphasising it is really important.
19:16
So if you look at the research in this type of space, you can
19:19
sort of classify it as being research on runners.
19:24
Yeah, and they come in many different forms.
19:26
And then research on running groups and a lot of those
19:30
running groups that you see around the world have similar
19:32
features to what Half Run has and some different combinations
19:38
of those features. But what's key in that research,
19:41
which I think is probably the most applicable to what R for R
19:44
is doing, it's not about runners necessarily, although a lot of
19:47
people that come to R for R are runners, but they often don't
19:50
use it as part of their training.
19:51
Like we've spoken about that quite a bit.
19:53
But if you look at that research around similar groups with
19:56
similar features combined in different ways, what is
19:59
emphasised is, yes, social support, but.
20:04
And it's something that I think is probably more useful framing
20:07
is peer support and that it brings people together without
20:12
the pressure some people refer to as sort of threat that
20:17
therapy comes with, where with therapy you're.
20:21
Challenged by the psychologist to think about something
20:23
uncomfortable. And there's an expectation,
20:25
right? Like when you go to therapy,
20:26
there's an expectation that you're going to disclose,
20:28
disclose challenges around your mental health.
20:32
A FARA and other peer support type of programmes, particularly
20:37
those that involve running don't appear to have that threat like
20:42
that pressure to disclose. It's perfectly OK in a peer
20:46
support type of environment where this it's held within the
20:50
context of running that you don't have that pressure.
20:53
You can turn up and not talk to anyone if you don't want to.
20:56
You can turn up and disclose if you want to.
20:59
But there's opportunity there without the threat.
21:01
And I think that's for me, a really key active ingredient
21:05
that I've seen in the work that these guys have been doing, the
21:09
interviews that have come in, is that there isn't that threat
21:12
that often therapy comes with. Now, I'm not saying that therapy
21:15
doesn't have its place, like of course it's very important, but
21:19
for many people this can work really well because it's without
21:22
that threat. It's an opportunity to disclose,
21:26
but not an expectation to disclose.
21:28
I think that's that's key. Difference, I think that leads
21:30
into like some of the stuff you've shifted towards really
21:33
focusing on now as well, because we've created this environment
21:36
where it is safe to talk about mental health and you can
21:40
disclose what you want and when you want.
21:42
There's a lot more awareness of mental health within your group.
21:45
Your volunteers are now getting mental health first data
21:48
training and that's come through people knowing that I can say,
21:51
hey, I'm struggling, talk to the volunteer and the volunteer
21:54
knows where to send me to get further help.
21:56
And I know that's something you guys have really been passionate
21:59
about and working on for the last few months.
22:01
And so, but that's kind of come through this idea that not only
22:04
can I say, you know, Joe was struggling today, maybe we need
22:07
to talk to this person tonight to understand how you can get
22:11
more help, but also people from the Alpha R community taking
22:14
that outside of Alpha R going to work, seeing this person, you
22:18
know, has been distant or something's been going on at
22:21
work and they're not, maybe they're not coping.
22:24
I can have a conversation and say, hey, you could come to
22:27
offer if you want, but also, hey, there's support out there.
22:31
You can go to these places or I can connect you with people who
22:34
know how to help you. And I think that's again, goes
22:37
back to one of those outcomes that you've kind of got.
22:40
But it's been really powerful seeing how that's transitioned
22:43
through. Like, you know, there's always
22:45
going to be stigma around mental health, and I hate that.
22:48
But having a group that's kind of slowly broken that down, not
22:52
only broken that down for everyone who shows up, but is
22:54
then continuing to spread that message in the broader
22:57
community. I think something I've also
22:59
really enjoyed seeing come through the interviews.
23:02
And that's what trying to do with this and sharing stories to
23:05
like apart from help people who are struggling by sharing out if
23:10
you raise my share my story was maybe to help someone who is
23:13
struggling themselves, but also, yeah, to reduce that stigma and
23:15
trying to raise everyone else's or raising our community's
23:18
mental health IQ was a big part of why we started the part of my
23:22
want to share stories. But I just want to go back to
23:24
what you said, Andrew, because it's something I've thought
23:26
about how far for a long time and I haven't had very.
23:29
That's the first time something someone said something that I'd
23:31
never realised was that like the non like Afra versus therapy.
23:37
Not that it's a competition, but like I think back to the moment
23:42
that's probably helped me most with my mental health was
23:45
running with Brainy 1 morning. It was a Friday morning.
23:50
We ran out along on the lake and we'd we'd gone about 3K.
23:53
And so we're into it sweating, dolphins starting to kick in.
23:57
And I, and it brought, we brought up a, a game that I'd
24:00
lost, like a really big game that I'd really basically like,
24:03
there's a, and I hate saying the word, but it was something that
24:06
felt pretty traumatic for me as some of it was the biggest game
24:08
of my career. I lost, I sort of got blamed for
24:11
it and I never really got over that and ruminated almost daily
24:15
for like almost 10 years, ruminated about that game.
24:18
But it was running with Brainy and him and, and somehow, yeah,
24:22
the game came up. It wasn't like we're going to
24:24
talk about my mental health and what I was struggling with
24:27
running. And then just naturally this
24:30
game, Brainy was telling me where he was when he watched it.
24:35
And I'm thinking, shit, he's going to like, Remember Me
24:37
getting sent off? But Brainy got every detail
24:40
wrong about the game. He was like, yeah, I was at this
24:43
bar in Singapore and yeah, it was a close game.
24:46
I'm thinking, mate, Brainy, we got flogged.
24:48
But but the point was that conversation made me realise
24:51
that people don't judge me for the game that happened 10 years
24:55
ago. But I, I, I thought everyone
24:57
did. Everyone's going to be by.
24:58
That's been the a that got sent off in the game, big Lions
25:01
match. But that has just that moment.
25:04
And I've told Brandy. But that moment has been the
25:06
biggest one that's helped me in my mental health, in my life.
25:09
Just he helped me come to that realisation that I was, yeah, I
25:14
was just ruminating and I was being ridiculous.
25:17
But then eventually I might have got to that with my therapist.
25:20
But yeah, just fascinating. Can.
25:22
Yeah. Is there any more you can add to
25:23
that? Like the?
25:24
Yeah, I mean. Why does that help that it's not
25:26
that it's not being, we're not trying even though we're about
25:29
mental health, something about it just letting stuff come up
25:33
when you're feeling. Because I've been on another run
25:35
with another group and we were going up Melbourne.
25:37
I have a guy, one of the guys, the dad started talking about
25:40
it. Divorce, it just started coming
25:42
up. He had about halfway to 2/3 of
25:44
the way through the run when he was he had the sweat on and he
25:47
opened up about his divorce and it helped him be part of him
25:50
moving on. Yeah, I, I think there are a lot
25:52
of elements there. And, and I think what you're
25:54
talking about is, is somewhat of a distraction effect, right?
25:58
There's, there's a different purpose and, and, and you can
26:02
shift that focus to running up Melbourne Ave or, or whatever it
26:06
might be. But what's interesting about our
26:08
Farrar is that the clear purpose is framed around mental health.
26:14
But Despite that, there's pressure off and and that's an
26:19
interesting sort of framing or definition of what's happening
26:24
in Afra. It's sure it's.
26:26
Running mental health. But we're not.
26:27
You have to come. Exactly, Yeah.
26:29
And it's and it's sort of a soft touch type of approach.
26:32
I think there's something in there.
26:34
I think sometimes the challenges that I guess similar groups face
26:40
is that there's the opportunity for disclosure, but if they're
26:47
if, if something is disclosed, are people capable of responding
26:52
and comfortable responding? I think that's what Alice was
26:54
talking about around the mental health. 1st That's what we did
26:57
the. Training and people feel.
26:58
Comfortable if someone did open up.
27:01
And I think that has flown effects to the comfort for the
27:04
disclosure as well that they don't feel like they're passing
27:07
on a burden necessarily. They feel like they're passing
27:10
on the people that have been. Trying exactly and and there for
27:13
that reason and there's and it's again, not a a therapist, it's
27:18
it's someone that is also disclosing back if they're
27:22
comfortable doing so. And I think that sort of social
27:25
interaction and that give and take I think is a key part of
27:30
active ingredient maybe of what we see in half.
27:32
Around creating the environment for people to speak, but then
27:36
letting them speak when they're ready.
27:37
Yeah, it's an opportunity, not an expectation.
27:40
And psychological safety is one of the words that I would use.
27:43
It does get thrown around a little much, but people will
27:47
talk about permission. I've got permission to struggle.
27:52
Maybe we're not all doing it. OK, Some of the quotes that came
27:56
through, but also that mental health literacy piece where
28:00
people are equipped to understand mental illness.
28:04
They feel they are learning more about their own mental health
28:07
and then mental health of others and feel that that that adds to
28:11
that psychological safety. So those two things go hand in
28:14
hand. They know the resources
28:15
available and that is incredibly reassuring for people even that
28:21
aren't struggling. I think that's something that
28:23
came through. We had just some beautiful
28:26
quotes from people saying I know if I'm struggling again in the
28:32
future and they're in a great place at the moment, that I
28:35
won't be alone. And I think that is just the
28:38
most that is just such a valuable thing, very difficult
28:43
to quantify. Like how do you quantify what
28:45
that means to someone? But going through your life
28:48
knowing that things outside might cause you distress.
28:53
But just that idea that week in week out, I can rock up to this
28:57
place. I've probably formed some really
28:59
close friendships and through repeated encounters at our for
29:03
our and knowing that if I needed there's support there or if a
29:08
friend was struggling, I could bring them to AFRA, I could
29:11
point them to lifeline. Those, those type of skills are
29:14
just incredibly, incredibly valuable.
29:17
And some of those interviews, I mean, Full disclosure, I've been
29:20
in tears reading, reading back over them and, and, and just
29:24
thinking of that profound effect that that has on someone's life,
29:28
I think is remarkable. And I think the thing with our,
29:33
for our, the mission that is very clearly, explicitly
29:37
communicated at the beginning of each run is incredibly
29:41
important. And it's holding the whole thing
29:43
together. And we've read this is something
29:46
when we were going through the data, we've wrestled with a bit
29:48
because people will talk about the mission and we've got this
29:53
big mission of suicide free ACT. And that's people are aware from
29:59
that, even if they come to the first run and don't know, they
30:01
eventually become aware for that.
30:03
But those people that are coming, they understand it's the
30:08
meaning that they ascribe to the mission that I think is is the
30:11
magic really. And I know you hate being called
30:16
or are uncomfortable with the term of mental health advocate
30:20
because you think because that maybe you feel that that doesn't
30:26
that's yeah, there's some discomfort there.
30:29
Maybe you're not. There are a lot of people do
30:31
that, you know, a lot of athletes.
30:33
Loud advocacy is one thing, and as is expertise, that's another
30:37
thing. I don't think that is the type
30:40
of mental health advocate that that you are and so embarrassing
30:45
here, but the amount of people. That.
30:50
But the amount of people that mention you and the core for our
30:56
group and that behaviour that you model that that is what true
31:02
advocacy I think looks like and the way that it's demonstrated
31:07
in. Because a lofty goal like AC
31:10
Suicide free ACT is one thing, but what does that mean for me
31:13
as an individual and the person next to me?
31:16
And each of you in the core group really demonstrate that
31:22
concern for the person right in front of you.
31:24
And that is definitely taken through the community.
31:29
And that's where psychological safety comes from.
31:32
So people are safe because they know they've seen that behaviour
31:37
modelled and again and again and again by those around them.
31:40
Well, that was Greenies. I was, you know, saved one life
31:42
from suicide. That's it, just one life.
31:44
And then try and do that. Again and again and again and.
31:48
Again, and they talk about that, right?
31:49
Like it's showing up, interacting with different
31:51
groups, but you're not interacting with the 600 people
31:54
that are there on a Wednesday night.
31:55
You're talking to smaller groups and different people.
31:57
And we've also spoken about like the importance because you don't
32:01
see everyone every single week, but how important the newsletter
32:04
and the rag and things have come to touch base and see what that
32:07
person's experience or that story was.
32:10
And knowing, oh, actually that's quite similar to what I have
32:13
gone through. And maybe I'm in that now, but I
32:15
can get through it and things like that.
32:17
And I think that's another part of this advocacy.
32:20
See that I don't know what the reasonings behind creating that
32:24
were and how if you know how beneficial that's been being
32:27
that like it's, it's come through that like it's just
32:29
another medium for me to think about things, see things
32:32
differently and kind of grow that confidence.
32:35
Like, I feel like we've spoken a lot about developing mental
32:38
health literacy of knowing where to send someone when they're
32:40
struggling 100% come through. But I think you touched on it as
32:44
well. It's growing our own mental
32:46
health literacy to sit back and say it's OK for me to actually
32:49
just sit and listen. You talk right now and that's
32:51
OK. I can be somewhat comfortable
32:53
with that, and I'm comfortable with you sharing that as well.
32:57
I think that's, yeah, been really, really nice to see from
33:01
a community, a community group. Well, that's something I think I
33:04
learned. Was it actually like I used to
33:05
think, oh, you'd have to say the right things to help the person.
33:08
No, it's actually just shut up and listen.
33:10
Yeah, listen. I'm like, hey, I guess, but you.
33:14
Freak out, right? Every time.
33:16
Like when are you OK? They started and you're like,
33:18
OK, I'm going to be this person that asks are you OK?
33:21
Usually the first two that comes with that, What if they say no?
33:23
How do I respond to that, right? That's often when it started
33:27
what people felt like. I feel like our Ferrari is
33:29
giving the people to the permission and the skills to
33:33
kind of sit back and say, OK, I'm just going to listen to why
33:35
you might not be OK right now. And that's just as beneficial as
33:39
being able to say, here you go, let's go to Lifeline.
33:42
Let's whatever it is. And to link.
33:47
I mean, this just sort of makes me not feel crazy.
33:50
Yeah. To hear that you guys are
33:52
finding the research. Yeah.
33:54
Yeah. It's something Andrew touched on
33:56
was that reciprocity. And that I think is something
34:00
that that comes through in the data is that you're not just
34:04
showing up for your own mental health.
34:06
You're showing up for the community.
34:08
And that is, is very clear through the through the
34:11
interviews that that that's what people are doing.
34:14
And people will, sometimes he's showing up because of the
34:19
benefits they've received in the past.
34:21
And, and I think that's also something that's it's strength
34:25
and holding the community together.
34:27
Yeah, sure, I don't need to go anymore, but I'll come for
34:29
everyone else that does need me to go and.
34:31
What you said, that quote you said before about that person
34:33
feeling like they're in a good place, but knowing that it's
34:37
there just I mean, I felt I, I know I didn't do any of the
34:41
interviews, but I almost felt like I wrote that like that's
34:43
where I was in a bad way when after I started initially and
34:47
had some really bad, one really bad patch probably two or three
34:49
years into it. But now that I'm in a great
34:52
place, just having that, knowing that that I've got that fall
34:54
back safety net if stuff doesn't isn't going great and eventually
34:58
something bad will happen. But just knowing that I've got
35:00
it there just makes me feel very relaxed, ready to take whatever
35:06
comes forward, whatever curve balls come in life.
35:09
And I think that's something we've talked about as well.
35:10
So we had a few participants that don't go every week.
35:14
They're kind of in and out of AFR to that premise that they
35:16
know that it's there either for themselves or for someone else.
35:20
But we've also spoken about this idea of well within the data,
35:23
maybe it's biassed because we haven't caught the people who
35:26
aren't going for AFR. We just kind of grappled.
35:29
What does that mean? But we also then had to sit back
35:31
and say, but that it doesn't mean our for us, not for them.
35:35
It could mean they've gotten what they need and they don't
35:37
need our for us anymore. And right.
35:40
Yeah. And they can come back to it.
35:41
And I think that's yeah, it's been a really interesting thing
35:44
for us to try and unpack what that means.
35:46
And I think that could be a, you know, a next Ave.
35:50
Yeah, non, non attendance is not failure.
35:52
Yeah, that's it. That's how we've kind of coined
35:54
it, but yeah. And no, it's attendance, isn't
35:57
it? Yeah, exactly.
35:59
Yeah. But I guess, yeah, it's, I don't
36:01
know, we've spoken about it because like, yeah, can we just
36:04
unpack that first timer experience that like what came
36:07
through there? What were the really key things
36:10
that helped people get to a point where maybe they didn't
36:12
need it anymore or yeah, or maybe they're Yeah, that how
36:16
they then became like really felt really a part of the
36:19
community. What was?
36:20
What did? What were your findings around
36:22
that that first timer experience?
36:24
They were different to begin with.
36:25
So I think the thing we've landed on is the first time, I
36:29
think sometimes you might get caught up that that's going to
36:32
make or break. It doesn't necessarily.
36:35
We had drastically different first time experiences.
36:37
People that came along started chatting straight away and
36:40
they're like this is it straight away?
36:42
People that came along maybe were a bit more anxious, a bit
36:44
more introverted, didn't talk to anyone at all and still kind of
36:49
came along. So there's a lot of differences
36:51
there, but I think it's the thing that's kind of stood out.
36:54
Whatever one they're doing, either engaging straight away or
36:57
standing back, it's actually seeing the people stay, stay
37:01
behind at the end is the biggest difference.
37:04
We get that a lot compared to other groups where, yes, you can
37:08
stay and have a chat if you want.
37:09
But the idea that now we always use the word like participants
37:13
use the word of, it's kind of like expected of you, even
37:17
though it's not expected of you. Like because so many people are
37:19
doing it and you can see that whether you're engaged or not,
37:23
it kind of built this idea of, OK, this is bigger than a run.
37:27
This could be a community. Let me keep seeing what this
37:30
offers for me. Do you have anything?
37:32
Else to further no, I think that's that's.
37:34
The subtle social pressure that they're going to stick around
37:36
after. Yeah, but it's not a pressure
37:38
though. Yeah, there's place an
37:39
opportunity to do it. There's a place opportunity.
37:42
There's a beverage that's time and space.
37:46
It's dedicated, yeah, and. That is different to other,
37:50
other runs in addition to the mission.
37:52
So if we were looking to contrast this to another running
37:55
group, that time and space and permission to stay back,
37:59
permission to share if if you need.
38:01
And that really clear expectation setting at the front
38:05
end with the mission and that being clearly communicated and
38:08
demonstrated, I think comes together to to make yeah, that
38:15
first. And that's a good point that
38:17
Annalisa made about it can be really powerful.
38:20
So a lot of people will remember who spoke to them the first
38:23
time. And this is something we've seen
38:26
you navigate as our frauds gotten bigger and bigger.
38:30
It can be hard in those, one of the quotes we have about it can
38:36
be the loneliest place in a crowded room.
38:38
So when you are struggling and you're in a room full of people
38:42
and no one's speaking to you, that can be really, really hard
38:44
and confronting. And if you could be focusing on
38:49
the fact that no one's talking to you.
38:53
Yeah, exactly. And but yes, there's the fact
39:00
that AFRA has other events is also helpful.
39:03
So the smaller events can be more comfortable for some people
39:06
and also having you've your volleys are huge, like the
39:09
volunteers just being there to look out for first timers and
39:14
those subtle connections. But again, it's there is an
39:17
informality to that because no one wants to be.
39:21
So what's your name? What are you here for?
39:23
That there's there's none of that enough around.
39:25
That's really important. But yeah, people do talk about
39:30
the first person that talked to them, but for some, they don't
39:33
need that. They just won't be around other
39:35
people. Yeah, like we've had stories of
39:37
not saying a word for three months, showing up every week
39:40
and not speaking to one person for three months, but still
39:43
showing up and then eventually, no, I'm going to talk to
39:47
someone. I like the story of having the
39:50
earphones in and running and then deciding actually I'm going
39:53
to walk because I'm going to talk to people and that's a
39:57
shift in in thinking, which is good.
40:01
I guess, yeah, this is just amazing.
40:05
But what about what we've what we've just spoken about isn't
40:11
like out there in the world sort of literature and knowledge
40:16
around community and exercise and how that's all like related
40:20
to mental health. Is there anything that we
40:22
uncovered that so the world doesn't already know or because
40:26
if we're getting all this amazing, like feedback that it's
40:29
working or working to a degree, like how's how's this?
40:34
Or is it already like is it out there in the global academic
40:38
sort of human understanding of human behaviour?
40:41
And like, I guess they're back to the whole that six month
40:45
Academy mate campus also for in six months.
40:47
Like what is the key message out of all the findings?
40:50
The one obviously not just proves that we're not we're not
40:52
a runner up, but like that would help.
40:56
What is the key finding from the research that the world didn't
40:59
already know? That could really, if we got
41:01
managed to get some media on this, the findings and the
41:04
paper, what is the message or the finding that would really
41:07
help the most amount of people who are struggling?
41:10
One thing I would jump in with is implementation is that there
41:16
is a lot of these active ingredients in their own have
41:20
been researched and there is a lot of research around physical
41:23
activity a lot and analysts brought this up.
41:27
We were at a conference presenting this this work and it
41:30
was a physical, physical activity conference.
41:32
So there was a lot of talk about different things that can
41:36
different types of physical activity that can help different
41:40
outcomes. And then everyone gets to, well,
41:44
how do we implement this? And then there'd be similar
41:47
research going on around groups and, and social identities.
41:52
So the the connection you get from a group, but how do we
41:56
implement this? And I think perhaps the biggest
42:00
key message from R4R is what implementation can look like by
42:06
combining all these different forces that are greater than
42:13
some of their parts. That's that's what I think would
42:16
learn. And I'm the recipe.
42:18
Recipe. Yeah, the recipe.
42:20
Combination. And I'm heading to the US in a.
42:24
Yeah. Can you, I know you sent me
42:25
along an email of like all the different.
42:27
Can you just for the people, because I've been out even
42:29
articulate to the everyone else how many conferences you guys
42:32
are going to present and can you give everyone a?
42:34
Little. Summary that where this
42:36
findings. So we've, we've been to a
42:38
physical activity conferences, some sports support management
42:43
conferences and we're looking at Newcastle.
42:46
That was yeah, physical activity.
42:49
We're looking at some local events recently.
42:52
That's really important to us, I think to connect with local
42:56
clinicians as as well to get people in Canberra thinking
43:01
about what that could mean for their patients.
43:03
So that's something there's a few conferences coming up
43:07
locally that we're looking at putting in abstracts for the,
43:11
the one in the the US that's coming up is, is a sport
43:15
management conference. My ties to Florida State make me
43:20
want to head there for that. But in particular, I want to
43:23
talk at Florida State with the universities.
43:26
There's a lot of folks there interested in this topic, but
43:32
just if I can just get a couple of people thinking about what
43:36
AFR are doing and how that could be implemented in their own
43:41
community, then that's hugely valuable.
43:45
Going to your question about what is different maybe or
43:49
what's an extension of what we know, what I find really, and I
43:52
haven't spoken to you guys about this, so correct me if I'm
43:54
wrong. You're just going off, going
43:57
off. Scripts we love it, but but what
43:59
I have found interesting is that it's it's been raised a few
44:04
times, but not as much as I expected based on what other
44:07
studies have found is no one seems to be talking about a
44:11
sense of accomplishment by coming to AFRA and but that is
44:15
always the top one from a run club from any other social
44:19
running groups. It's it gives me a sense of
44:22
achievement or accomplishment. Now, that might sound like a
44:24
good thing, right? Like that, you know, you get a
44:27
sense of achievement or accomplishment, and in many ways
44:30
it is. But I'm starting to wonder
44:32
whether that might lead to some of the negative consequences
44:35
associated with running. Like, we know that, you know,
44:38
training for a marathon or a big event like that can can actually
44:43
cause some stress and anxiety that if you injure yourself that
44:46
you can't continue training. That is stress.
44:48
That was a failure. Exactly, yes.
44:50
And that's really challenging, particularly if you're drawing
44:53
your sense of achievement and accomplishment from that.
44:56
And I wonder whether the fact that that isn't occurring enough
44:59
for a is actually a good thing that people are building this
45:02
into their everyday. It's not an accomplishment to
45:04
turn up to Rafa, but it's something that I just do.
45:07
And I enjoy doing it. But I'm not ticking it off my
45:09
weekly list. You know, it's not my, you know,
45:12
New Year's resolution that I have to come to AFARA.
45:15
I'm here because I want to be not forcing myself to do it.
45:19
It's not an. Accomplishment a bit better when
45:20
I do. It exactly.
45:21
And I wonder whether that's something that is different to
45:25
what we see in other in other groups.
45:27
It's certainly like feels that like for me, and that's more
45:32
just a general like exercise thing, like being an elite
45:34
athlete. It was all about running,
45:35
especially when I first got it was all about park running,
45:38
running my PBS and pushing myself.
45:40
Whereas now it's just about ageing well and doing things I
45:43
enjoy. And there's just so much less
45:46
pressure on myself when I'm actually doing the exercise.
45:49
And it's just, yeah, a lot more, a lot more enjoyable without
45:52
that luck voice in the back of my mind.
45:54
Ohh, mate. Come on, Ben, you gotta be
45:55
pushing it to the limit today. Yeah, Sort.
45:57
Of. Relax.
45:59
And I think that's been a perk of like, seeing you expand to
46:02
all of the different activities. Like someone, you know, they
46:05
show up, they're still running for resilience, but then they
46:07
can do pickleball, they can go to the snow, they can go
46:10
surfing, whatever it might be. Like there's all these different
46:12
activities and people are like, I'm just gonna jump into it and
46:15
see if I like it. And I think for me, that's like
46:18
what all my research is about. So I love to hear that coming
46:21
through. And we have had a conversation.
46:22
And the psychological safety just to RIP you have a go.
46:25
Have a craft? Yeah.
46:27
Be hitting aces. And I think underpinning all
46:31
this, the purpose and meaning that people get isn't coming
46:35
from their own sense of personal achievement, but for those who
46:40
are really, I think see themselves as part of the for
46:44
our community and it's part of who becomes part of who they
46:47
are. So that's that social identity
46:49
piece, group identification, that purpose and meaning they
46:53
get of contributing to something bigger than themselves, which
46:57
isn't the same that you would get training for a marathon.
47:00
So there's a lot of self efficacy.
47:02
You would get a sense of accomplishment, sense of
47:04
achievement. If I'm training, but at AFRA, I
47:07
am part of something bigger than myself.
47:09
Yeah. Can we double click on that for
47:10
a second? It's the so you're saying when
47:13
someone is able, well, that, that when they're able to give
47:17
back to AFRA or to to help someone to or they do something
47:21
that makes them feel like they're part of something bigger
47:22
than themselves. Is that when they start
47:24
identifying with that group? Is that like the the activity or
47:28
the the the checkpoint? The no checkpoint?
47:30
The turning point. Turning point when they.
47:33
Can and they and it becomes part of who who they are.
47:37
So there's a sense of identity by I belong in this group.
47:41
This is part of my family, I'm part of something bigger than
47:44
myself and this is what that meaning and purpose, not, I
47:50
think, distinguishes some really powerful groups in our
47:53
community. So religious organisations are
47:57
about something bigger than yourself, for example, and AFRA
48:01
is about something bigger than ourselves and it's even bigger
48:05
than my own mental health. I think that's key and that all
48:09
of those ingredients we pointed about before are leading people
48:14
away from focusing on their own achievements and their own self
48:17
efficacy and running faster. And me and I'm running we and we
48:22
is that. So if you want the crossover
48:24
point, once you start saying we, that's that's where group
48:27
identity comes in. It's it's, it's about us and.
48:31
Well, before we go, it's next. I was very rude and cut you off.
48:33
Did you have anything? No, no, I wasn't going to say
48:35
anything. No.
48:36
Well, I was very rude jumping at the got a bit excited when you
48:39
because that was just a on a big sort of something up for me in
48:42
my mind. But yeah, what next?
48:45
What do we reckon? Like what directions, future
48:50
research, like what, what where could this lead?
48:53
Obviously we want to try and help get some shine some light
48:55
on what we've discovered and that how it's it's the
48:58
ingredient and how sort of Afras stumbled across sort of a recipe
49:03
that seems to be working. Yeah.
49:05
What next? What do we all think?
49:07
Like research or doubling down? Yeah, there's a lot of different
49:11
ways to look at it and it's kind of the part where we're
49:13
struggling with, which is great because there's so many
49:15
different ways. I think 2:00 we're kind of
49:18
focusing on is looking at this in, I guess, different subsets
49:22
of populations. So, you know, are there unique
49:26
advantages at the UC or the AU group or groups that you haven't
49:31
even potentially engaged in yet? Is there something we can
49:33
transfer the ingredients to create for people?
49:37
And then also, how are we getting people to that weigh
49:41
stage? Is there something?
49:43
Yeah. And what does that look like?
49:45
Is that how different is that for each person?
49:48
I think, and there's so many ideas.
49:50
So I'm sure these two have some as.
49:51
Well, yeah, I think before even we get to the ideas, I think
49:55
this study in itself has been really valuable and for us to
49:59
understand what's going on. And what I think we continue to
50:03
talk about is, and Joe started by talking about this was just
50:07
how lucky we feel we've been to work with R for R and we feel
50:12
very privileged to be able to have access to people's thoughts
50:15
around what our Farrar is and how it works for them.
50:18
And we want to give back to that.
50:21
So we continue to talk to Ben and, and, and you know, your
50:24
thoughts around, you know, what, what should happen next with our
50:27
Farrar and how do our findings might, might contribute to that
50:31
story and that refinement. So we're really excited to do
50:34
that. It's very rare in research that
50:36
you get to have this sort of immediate impact, and I feel
50:39
like we're already having that and this this data is already
50:42
having that impact. So that's super exciting.
50:45
There's all the academic outputs and the pathways that we're
50:48
going to go. But to have this impact in the
50:50
Canberra community I think is like what you see is about, and
50:54
it's what we're excited about mostly.
50:57
So that's really cool for us, yeah.
50:59
That's it, Andrew. I don't want to say too much
51:02
while I might tear up, but that's that's it.
51:06
This work has been just a dream to do because of the on one
51:14
Level 3 amazing people to work with.
51:18
So I've loved every minute. There's not a second of begrudge
51:21
this, this work, but the and the to feel like we have had the
51:28
trust of the community and that any, any way we can add just a
51:32
little bit of snow to the for our snowball, I think is is just
51:38
very wonderful and rewarding. And so we want anything we do
51:45
research wise to be in service of that.
51:47
And and so we're A-Team. So we'll keep working with you
51:50
and Matt and anyone else and help how we can lend our
51:56
learnings. You're adding plenty of snow.
51:59
We've added plenty more snow to the snowball to come, but I
52:03
guess see, on behalf of our community, we could not be more
52:05
grateful that you guys are giving you professional careers
52:09
and, and, and that time to helping further our cause.
52:13
And that if we it is the research resilience team, if
52:15
they're I just don't like. That buzz, the buzz around that
52:19
I like. That.
52:20
Presented but with Doctor David Hughes.
52:23
Hughes, he will get you on as well at some point.
52:25
But just yeah, man, imagine if we were able to contribute
52:29
something to the World Knowledge Bank understanding about the
52:33
best practise or a better practise for helping people in
52:36
your community with mental health or just helping people
52:41
live better. Really.
52:41
Like not about mental health just.
52:43
And that's maybe why I sort of feel a bit funny with the mental
52:45
health advocate is it's more just about life or just about
52:47
living better and. I just can't be.
52:52
But you are grateful. You are grateful.
52:53
To have you guys involved, I don't know, the whole community
52:56
feels the same too. So guys, thank you so much for
52:59
your time today. Is there anything else you want
53:00
to say? Any other plugs on anything, any
53:03
of the other research coming up that you want to share or be
53:06
able to keep an eye out on and where we everyone can follow
53:08
like obviously LinkedIn on LinkedIn and stay in touch with
53:11
any of your other research? Yeah, I think, I think I just
53:15
would emphasise the thank you. And I think that if you, I think
53:21
as researchers, we sometimes feel a need to be a little
53:24
detached and, and as though you, you always care about your
53:29
research. But I think this is work that
53:31
we've we've really deeply cared about.
53:34
And if life can mirror research, I think it's given us a real
53:38
sense of purpose and achievement as well.
53:41
And so, yeah, just huge thanks. And we'll, it's a privilege and
53:46
we feel a great responsibility. So we'll keep doing our best in
53:50
service of you also. Thanks.
53:52
Thank you. Yeah, we stumbled across this,
53:53
and it's great to have some smart people verify that we've
53:56
actually might have stumbled across something that can help a
53:58
lot of people. So thank you, guys, and thank
54:00
you. See you on the next.
54:01
Yeah, we'll have you guys back. Plenty more time to talk about
54:04
future stuff. Thank you.
54:06
Thank you.