Latest / Unstuck Pod / Founders & Boards: Placate or Argue? (Benjamin Grimes and Jamie Schneiderman)
Transcript
- Jamie: welcome everyone today. And I want to welcome Ben Grimes, who's here ⁓ to meet us. I'm really excited to have this conversation. I think there's some really interesting things ⁓ that he that he can share. So good morning, Ben. Thanks for joining. Ben Grimes: Morning, Jamie. I'm anxious to have the conversation and excited to be here. Jamie: Awesome. So for the sake of everybody who's watching and listening, can you give everyone an intro like about you and what you've been what you've been up to? Catch everyone up. Let's let's start there. Ben Grimes: Sure, happy to Jamie. My experience and background is wide and varied. I was thinking the other day, I didn't realize it until I really thought about it. I've been in this industry since the late 1980s. So I've been around for quite a while and seen a lot of change over the years. started my career at a ⁓ great company, IBM, worked my way up from a programmer. all the way up to a distinguished engineer and executive level position in the company. In the PC company is where I started. working on the second generations of the original PC and great learnings and great people. But most importantly, learned a lot about leadership and management ⁓ all of those aspects at IBM. I then was recruited out by a company called Avacent. They were headquartered in Huntsville, Alabama. They owned company Land Desk that did desktop management. And also had a big working ⁓ group around data center infrastructure management. And I was their CTO and head of corporate strategy. And so I learned more about the business ⁓ of IT those years and ran help to the sale of that business to Emerson Electric. After that transition. I decided to hang my own shingle for a while and had my own consulting firm where I was doing ⁓ &A integration consulting for a while until a company here in Atlanta, who is what I would call us, ⁓ more toward a mid-stage startup, asked me to come and be CTO and eventually president of that company. And so I got some time in the true startup. Stage where you know you worry about making sure you're bringing in enough money to make payroll As well as trying to grow the business So a lot of learnings there and then when VMware acquired a company here in Atlanta called air watch Because of relationships with VMware from my past They ⁓ brought me to help with some of the integration and now today That company's been integrated We've been bought by Broadcom. My business unit has been split out a company called Omnisa and are a PE owned ⁓ business I all of global customer service for the organization. So everything from engineering to running engineering teams to strategy, integration, and now ⁓ running customer service. a lot of varied. jobs within the IT industry, but probably the part of my career that I've enjoyed the most ⁓ is lot of the board work I've done. I've done everything from nonprofits through ⁓ technical advisory boards to actually sitting on ⁓ a of directors for several startups over the years. And that's a piece that ⁓ I've enjoyed taking my learnings and helping startups ⁓ through board position. Jamie: Awesome. No, thank you for sharing that. great. mean, wow. the, the, when you, even when you go back and you start talking about, you know, late eighties and just how much has, you know, in the tech world, how much has changed during that time? So, so to say that you've seen it all, you know, a lot, a lot of change and a lot of things that have come and gone and just shifted along the way. ⁓ and so that's fantastic. Very, very cool. very cool. I say career progression, but it's really just been a career experiencing and contributing in a variety of different ways. That's awesome. Ben Grimes: Yeah, a lot of victories and lot of scars over those years for sure. Jamie: That's awesome. All right. No, no. And that's great. And I think, I think everyone who's listening, watching, can when they talk about scars. But, I want to specifically, what I actually wanted to do, cause I, cause I, I think point at the end was a really good one and something unique that we don't talk about that much, which is boards and, the impact boards ⁓ and how boards help or hurt or ⁓ anything. So, so I love, so, so you mentioned that you, you've been on the board of several startups. in those cases, you were, an investor, you were, like, ⁓ an independent, you were, where, tell us about the experience, about how you got there in the first place. And then let's get into that. Cause I'd love to talk more about that. think it's really cool. Ben Grimes: Sure. of fallen in both of those categories. There's been some that I've done some personal investing in, and was part of being part of the board. ⁓ And were others where, if you, you know, in, this board world, a lot of it is very much. Your success in other boards ⁓ or your that people come and search you out and bring you to. another company that's looking for some expertise. I've been brought in that way as well. And I'll tell you, Jamie, one of the things that I've really, really understood after being involved with several of these, the ones where I was an investor because I was interested in the technology or I was interested in what they were doing. So I invested and then I was brought in as a board member as part of that investment. My position on that board in the way I thought about that board was very different than when I was brought in by somebody because of maybe my experience or expertise, but I didn't necessarily make an investment in that company. And I'll explain that difference. And I've seen it also as standing outside, working with boards. I've worked with public boards because of my role, like at Avacyn, ⁓ I worked directly with the board. and others, those who are board members because of their investment typically come in looking at it as governance of their investment. And they're coming in to make sure that the company's doing the right thing to protect their investment. absolutely felt that way on those companies that I invested in and I was on the board. On the boards where I'm there, not as an Jamie: Mm. Ben Grimes: Investor but as somebody who's been brought in as a true independent because of expertise My mentality was my bias was how do I help this company? Get to be better get to where it wants to go, but it wasn't shackled by Because what does that mean for me in the end? Now that doesn't mean that I didn't have some equity because there's compensation for being on the board But the main driver was more around how do I help the company get to where it wants to be versus how do I get the company where I want it to be so that my investment is a good investment. Jamie: Now let's hit on that point, because I think that's a fantastic point. In theory, you would think that the two things should line up, right? I've made an investment in this business. want to maximize the return of my investment. So I want the company to do the things that maximizes the return on my investment. But what I hear from you is, and my personal experience is, those are not the same thing. So can you... Dig in on that, because I think that's a really interesting point. Ben Grimes: Yeah, absolutely. And I don't think it's a conscious way people are thinking. So I want to make sure I'm clear. I don't think that people who invest are on the board are evil people, right? And trying to drive the wrong thing. think it's just an ⁓ bias because you've got your own skin in that game. And your goal is to protect that ⁓ that you've put in where you don't quite have those shackles on the other side. ⁓ and what I see happening sometimes is, can, I state this cause I actually have been that person. I've been on both sides of this, right? When in those where I was an investor, I may not be as open to really open conversations that really bring all the ideas ⁓ to try and us move the ball forward because I care about my investment. I know what we need to go do. Therefore you need to go do this I want to help you grow your business. want to, I want to be an advisor to you, but in the ⁓ the true decision is yours. And let me understand why you may agree or disagree with me. And can we then mold that clay a little bit better to really get a better outcome. So you don't have that built in contention. at the board level when you when you're not a pure investor that you may have when you are an investor and you think they have to go this direction. Jamie: No, and so do you feel like in the times when you haven't been an invest, like you haven't invested in the business, that you were more naturally collaborative? And again, I'm talking about you as an example, but this is what you're observing in general too. Ben Grimes: Yeah. Yeah. No, am in truly observing this of myself. I am more naturally collaborative because of that, because I'm like, if he doesn't, he or she doesn't agree with me. So what we're on the other side of here, she doesn't agree with me. Then I feel my investments at risk. And so I think when, if he or she doesn't agree with me, Jamie: Interesting. Ben Grimes: My behavior is more collaborative because, okay, I want to understand why don't you agree with me? Maybe you're seeing something that I'm not seeing even as a board member, even as a board member. I don't know everything. I'm not in that business, you know, 24 seven. So my, my ability to collaborate and try and understand what they're bringing to their position. They're bringing to the table. I think is more open. such that, okay, maybe I can be more receptive to that and even adjust. And maybe we come up with an even better solution for whatever problem it is we're trying to Jamie: So I think this is an interesting, so given the dynamics on a board, you're, in most, listen, in the experiences that I've had and their startup boards, the heavily, heavily loaded with investors, right? People who put money in, in most of those cases, institutional money. And they, like you said, they want the company to be successful, but they're protecting their investment. That's how they, That's their thing. They're certainly not experts are on the business or the area. The I have for you is, so how is a board? So you've seen boards that have been very effective and boards that have been less effective. You've met, We've talked about that dynamic. What happens when you're on a board when some of the folks on the board are that they're investors they're worried about their investment and others are advisors and they're really just there to help the company succeed. And how does the board work to kind of get to its better place? Ben Grimes: I think the boards that have been successful that I've seen or been on are ones that have a of the investors and a mix of really more. I don't want to just say advisors because there's technical advisory boards, but they're not on the governance of a true board of directors. But if you can have more people that you brought onto your true board that are there because of their experience and you get that mix now when the Jamie: Yeah. Yep. Ben Grimes: board doors close and you're behind closed doors having the discussion, you start to even out that balance. You don't have just a protect investment viewpoint. And I think why boards that have a solid mix of invest, because at level, at this stage, you have to have your investors on the board. It's just, it's there. But if you can kind of help balance that Jamie: Yeah. Ben Grimes: with some folks that come in with expertise, but not that investment bias, they can help bridge some of the conversations from management into those investors. right? Because sometimes as investors, our ears are a little bit clogged on some things and we don't hear it where the advisory type board members might be able to help. Jamie: Yeah. Ben Grimes: with that conversation with the other ⁓ board members. Jamie: And no, I, and listen, I think there are folks that are listening right now, watching right now and going, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think this is great. It's really, really good advice, in terms of how to think about it. I actually want to go ⁓ step beyond that. So as a, as a board member, you're looking at a company and the company is faces challenges, right? ⁓ ever perfect. Nothing's ever easy. When's point where you, as a board need to look and go, The answers are not sort of in this room. And ⁓ we can't help. And we need somebody else to come and help. the company, so the management team we want to trust and we want to leave, it's not that they're not doing a good job, but they need a different point of view. And it can't come from us, because we don't have it or we can't do that. But how do you know that's the case? And what do you do in those situations? Ben Grimes: Well, and again, that's where if the board or you have relationships with folks who have been there, done it, they can go help bring in people to the conversation. That's where technical advisory boards come into play. ⁓ I've been involved with all of those. And even as a board member, may run into an issue or a concern around something like security. I'm not a security expert. Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. Ben Grimes: But over my career, I've gotten to know security experts. so ⁓ the board meeting, we may say the company, the founders don't have the full breadth of knowledge around security that we think they need to have. How can we help them? I can go back into showing my age, my Rolodex and that ⁓ from my that has that expertise. and ask them to come in and be part of just even a simple conversation or part of a technical advisory committee that we create to go tackle that security issue. That's where I think the balance comes in. And that's why it's important to bring people around you that have had that experience and can bring that, you know, catalog of experts to the table, even if they're not the experts. Jamie: Okay. Yeah, and I actually want to go because you gave a very specific, you said security and I, know, whether it's product example or structure or operational example, want to talk about a place which is a tougher one. ⁓ least I've seen it as a tougher one, which is just growth. Right. So looking at the business at the business results. It isn't as clearly defined as something that is technical, right? We don't, have this or we don't have this skill. So the challenge that you run into is, well, when it comes to things like marketing, everybody thinks they have an answer. That's the, that's the, the joy and disaster of being anybody who's in the marketing, but mark sales marketing growth in general, and, and how, know, when something, when the business isn't rolling along the way you think it should be rolling along. ⁓ it's easier. It's, it's, to me, it's less cut and dry, right? So then, then the security example, not that I think, I think it's a good one. What do do in those cases? Like, what, what did those things look like? Ben Grimes: Well, my belief is for the structural elements of a business, there's a lot of it. We've got a lot of history out there that people have succeeded. People have failed people of learnings. We're not stretching an envelope here. you're a brand new startup and you're trying to get your first million, there's been a bazillion companies that have gone through that same thing from your one to $10 million mark. then your 10 to Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. Ben Grimes: 50, right? So I don't think we're traversing new ground, but what we're trying to figure out is who has done it, who has done it successfully, but even more importantly, having some conversations with people who have failed ⁓ trying to learn from their failures, ⁓ as well. And that's why, again, I think if you have a board that has experience, in the, in these worlds have been there, done that, they can go find those type people for you to have those conversations with. I, I've, and, and, and I think it's all about finding the people who have done it. And there's a lot of people out there who have, I think our challenge is matching the people up. Jamie: and go. Yeah. No, and, and, ⁓ so, so I'm, just wonder, it, and it goes to the whole, relationship between management and a board. And I think in terms of, and I'm really focused ⁓ startup world where founders and a lot of the, where the lot of the board are investors and founders. And, and, you know, it has been my experience. What I have seen is that a lot of founders don't trust. Investors and whether they should or shouldn't, it's just a matter of. You talked about investors worried about their protecting their investment, even. ⁓ founders go, well, I don't know if I want to get expertise from these guys because I think they're just putting in someone to watch me or someone to tell me how to do it or whatever it is. do manage through that? How does that look when you're in a board position? Cause I can see both sides of this conversation. Ben Grimes: Yeah. I, one of the things that has been successful in some of the groups I've been involved with is they actually, if that need comes up, we need this expertise in sales in the organization. You ask the board and the board's going to give you some, people, but also ask the local community. There's here in Atlanta, we've got great ⁓ communities, everything from the Atlanta Tech Village to the Technical Association of Georgia. There's a ton of communities that you can go into those communities and ask, Hey, do you know somebody who has done this has taken sales from here to here? Get a cadre of potential people and then interview them. Just for any board membership, technical advisory board, rather true board, go and have the interview. And be careful of your own bias. You don't want to, yes, man, necessarily things just like you. Maybe bring a couple of the board members have them part of the interview process as well. But think the big thing is try and get a cohort of people that could help. Get a cohort of people that can help you interview and then figure out from that who might be a good fit. Jamie: Yeah. I think that's great. I think that's really, really good advice. So, okay. So, you've been on boards that have presumably very successful and had, sorry, of that have been very successful and companies that been less ⁓ successful. ⁓ How of that in your view was the board, the dynamics of the board or just Ben Grimes: Yes. Jamie: the company itself and leadership. And I know it's always a combination thereof, but trying to actually get at the board part of this, which is could the board have done more if it was more effective? Ben Grimes: The ones that I have that have been quite honestly a failure and the companies don't exist. got sold off into other areas and not in not successful sales. They just had to the boards were very much heavily on the investment side. It truly was because you had founders that were trying to keep the board happy because the board is what was paying the bills. And when your board is the group that's paying your bills, have a tendency to ⁓ placate or argue. And of come to a collaborative sort of solution that allows you to really take the business forward together. The ones that have been successful and have had good or growth were the ones that were truly balanced. Jamie: Yeah. Ben Grimes: ⁓ in that every board member has a reason for being there, but is the reasons completely investment or is a reasons because you know, their reputation is on the line as well, or they're there just because they enjoy the fact of being part of something and giving back. It's when you can get an amalgamation of all of that. That's where you get success. And the worst thing though is to either have a hundred percent contention between the founder and the board members or a hundred percent placation, right? Where you're just a yes person because they're paying the bills. ⁓ is going to be a hundred percent correct on any of the angles. And the goal is how do you just get a group that can work together to get to the best decision. Jamie: Yeah. Yep. I'm for, I am smiling reacting because I have been there. Unfortunately, the placate or the argue and, and unfortunately is, not only is it ineffective, but it's unpleasant to be part of that. Cause what you're all, really want it. The idea when you're on the other side as a founder is, aren't we all here have success ⁓ and it doesn't, but doesn't feel that way when you're in the room. Or don't we want the same thing, I think is where I'm going. And it doesn't feel like that when you're in the room. So it can be frustrating. And so I think oftentimes ⁓ underestimate the need and impact of a valuable board for their success. But clearly it means a ton, just so much. Ben Grimes: And I think whether you're a board member or you're a founder or a leader in the company, every once in a while, you need to look in the mirror. I've worked with founders that about every quarter they're firing another board member because there's a problem. Well, if you're one of those founders who's constantly firing your board members because they're a problem, where does the problem really lie? Jamie: ⁓ yeah Ben Grimes: And if you're an investor and you continue to invest and be on boards that don't necessarily work, are you, what are you doing as an investor that may be actually hindering the company from your board position? So sometimes, important for ⁓ one of those roles to kind of look in the mirror a little bit and think about what is my role in this situation and am I actually helping or hindering? Jamie: Good Ben Grimes: this situation. Jamie: I love it. I think that's fantastic advice. And I'm sure that you could give more advice. And I think you and I could talk and do this literally all day. But we're bumping up against time. anyway, has been really great. I love it. Can you do me a favor? Please tell folks where they can find you. Follow what you're I'll add some links in the description, but could you do that please? Ben Grimes: Absolutely. ⁓ I'm on LinkedIn, LinkedIn, and like you said, we'll get you the link to it. I'm available there. Please connect with me. ⁓ enjoy talking and ⁓ in these sort of discussions because learned from them just as much as well. So that's a place where you can find Jamie: Well, listen, I loved ⁓ it. appreciate your time. I thought that was fantastic. And then ⁓ there's no that you have lots and lots add. Maybe we'll have to do another one of these and go further into I think that would be great. So, ⁓ guys, thank you so much for watching and thank you to Ben. And we'll see you on the next episode. Ben Grimes: would love to. Thank you.