Latest / QUESTION EVERYTHING / Toxic Positivity: What's Real vs. What's Forced? with Kate Bowler

Transcript

Toxic Positivity: What's Real vs. What's Forced? with Kate Bowler · QUESTION EVERYTHING

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe and each week my guests
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: and I have conversations.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: That put a new spin on pretty. This is pretty smart.
• 0:20
  Speaker 3: Hello, I hope you're having a good day. It is
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• 0:51
  Speaker 3: few housekeeping things before we jump in. I just want
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  Speaker 3: The other thing I wanted to tell you is that
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  Speaker 3: with almost everyone's products so that people use TikTok Shop.
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  Speaker 3: But I wanted to throw that out there because if
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  Speaker 3: you've been wanting the card game and you felt like
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  Speaker 3: it was just too high of a price point, or
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  Speaker 3: gonna post the link in the show notes.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: That's what I'll do.
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: Okay, I have to tell you I'm really excited for
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: today's episode.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: It was so great to record.
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: My dad used to say different friends for different reasons,
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: and I kind of feel like different guests and different
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: episodes for different reasons. But I'm always so excited when
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: someone is just so smart and really teaches us something,
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: and that's how I feel about today's episode.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: So let's jump in.
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure if you remember this, but a few
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: years back, stand up comedian Whitney Cummings accidentally shared a
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: picture of herself that included a nip slip, so when
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: followers called it out, she responded saying this, I stand
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: by most of my nudes. Frankly, I'm way more embarrassed
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: by all the inspirational quotes that I've screen grabbed.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: Those inspirational quotes.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: We all know what.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: She's talking about.
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: They are part of the happiness industry, and it is
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: an industry.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: So let me dive deeper for a second.
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: Because if you've been listening to Pretty Smart for a while,
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: you know I love a quote. You know I'm an
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: optimistic girl, pragmatic with a side.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: Of you can do anything you put your mind to.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: De Lulu.
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: To be honest, I think every person needs a little
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: bit of that. It's kind of like hot sauce for
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: a dreamer. But there is a line, a line between
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: positivity and the relentless pursuit of optimism. DUB nowadays is
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: toxic positivity. So what's the difference in preparing for this episode?
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: I have thought about it a lot.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: While a positive outlook can be empowering, toxic positivity veers
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: into dangerous territory, dismissing valid emotions and experiences as mirror inconveniences.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: It's the difference between acknowledging pain and hastily slapping on
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: a forced cheerfulness when you're actually not okay, or the
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: difference between offering a sympathetic ear to someone when they're
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: in pain and spouting empty platitudes like well, everything happens
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: for a reason. Toxic positivity masquerades as a solution, when
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: really it's perpetuating a myth that one must always be happy,
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: regardless of circumstance or As our guests today Kate Boehler.
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: Said, mental health is not having positive ocean, it's having
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: the appropriate emotion at the right time.
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: The right time. Sometimes there is no right time.
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: There's no right time for a breakup, loss of a job,
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: a broken arm. Sometimes it's not good vibes only, and
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: that's okay. But where did all of these social media
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: and modern colloquialisms come from our guest today? Kate Bohler says,
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: they actually have deep roots in the business of religion,
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: the business of spirituality, and the business of happiness.
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: If you just think about two thousand and fourd it's
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: really the beginning of a lot of forms of social
• 5:29
  Speaker 4: media that made that so normal. So even just like
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: the word blessed went from being I mean, honestly very
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: rich multi thousand year tradition, but especially in the Judeo
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: Christian tradition of an act of spiritual noticing, in which
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: you would bless your people, or you would you know,
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: you can bless your house, or you would figure out
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: how to bless the day, which was a way of
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: just saying good and bad God, you are here, into
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: a kind of tag blast, which was like married my
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: high school sweet eye, hashtag blust, barely there Bhinija hostag blust,
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: which became a way of saying, look at me, And
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: even if it was I'm so lucky, it was like,
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: look at me. I put myself in the right place
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: at the right time. Here I am hashtag glust.
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: Kate is a very interesting narrator for the idea of
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: toxic positivity. She's a four time New York Times bestselling author,
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: host of the podcast Everything Happens, and a professor of
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: divinity at Duke. Her own brush with the subject of
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: toxic positivity came during a life altering moment in her
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: thirties when she was blindsided with a stage four cancer diagnosis.
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: Kate experienced a lot of people telling her there was
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: a reason that it was happening to her, and, as
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: she puts it, when someone is drowning, the only thing
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: worse than failing to throw them a life preserver is
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: handing them a reason.
• 6:57
  Speaker 4: Self help is got a lot a great tool, but
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: the problem is as a worldview, it tells you that
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: every single thing in your life is solvable with usually
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: like five steps.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: Kate's most recent book is titled Have a Beautiful Terrible Day.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: The title conveys exactly the message she is trying to
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: share with everyone. Things can be both beautiful and terrible
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: at the same time, and that is perfectly okay. You
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: are at Duke and Rabbi leader actually shared your Instagram
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: profile with me, I would say, almost like a year ago,
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: and I actually don't know this from our dinners. What
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: drew you to studying divinity?
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, well, I guess I didn't really know I
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: would kind of end up like teaching at a So
• 7:54
  Speaker 4: I teach at a seminary at a university, which means
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: I'm at a place where people kind of teachretty much
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: every subject. But we're in the divinity school, which means
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: people take not just history but like religious history and
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: not just.
• 8:05
  Speaker 5: Theology, but like Christian theology.
• 8:08
  Speaker 4: And I grew up really wanting to be a historian
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: because my dad's a historian. So when that's what I
• 8:13
  Speaker 4: got into, I was like, well, this is an amazing
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: way of being nosey. You can ask anything and they
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: like have to answer in the name of research. So
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: when I graduated with my PhD in history, I thought
• 8:22
  Speaker 4: I just wanted to kind of study ideas for their
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: own sake, But this job meant that it was a
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: really fun way of.
• 8:30
  Speaker 5: Doing two things.
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: One kind of just giving the framework of like how
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: did our culture create these beliefs and how sort of
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: like how did they sort of build the sacred canopy
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: under which we live and believe things. But then I
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: was teaching people who kind of go out into their
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: communities and have to learn whether or not these truths
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: actually like will bear up the way to their lives.
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: So that kind of like upped the stakes of what
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: I was doing. And once I got into that, I
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: got hooked.
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: What is your relationship with religion or spirituality?
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: Now I'm hilariously jesus y so like enough to make
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: it uncomfortable for people who are like I love everything,
• 9:07
  Speaker 4: I love something in particular, let me be specific. But
• 9:11
  Speaker 4: I two parents who kind of became Christians later in life,
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: and so they weren't very precious about it.
• 9:16
  Speaker 5: I think my mom.
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: Actually became a Christian because she got a pamphlet and
• 9:21
  Speaker 4: was like, sinners in the eyes of God, all right,
• 9:24
  Speaker 4: which I thought is genuinely the funniest way anyone has
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: ever changed their mind.
• 9:28
  Speaker 5: And my dad read a book and was like, yeah,
• 9:30
  Speaker 5: that sounds about right.
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: And what was lovely about that was I grew up
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: believing that ideas kind of have to carry water, like
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: they've got to do the work. And so I love
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: kind of taking the beliefs that I have and then
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: trying to figure out one how it shapes my own
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: experience of being a Canadian slash American, and also just
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: whether or not they can be there for me in
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: the hard times, which is why I think it's like
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: really the only good reason to believe in God or
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: anything else, as if like the love will be there
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: when you need it.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, how do you feel about the love, like pouring
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: into the love before you need it?
• 10:10
  Speaker 5: Yeah?
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: Well, because if you leave me to my own devices,
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: I am like an achievement monster who just wants to
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: climb a ladder until it goes so high that I
• 10:20
  Speaker 4: can congratulate myself on my many good stemps. But like
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: the truth is, my life hasn't been super lucky. I
• 10:26
  Speaker 4: just kind of keep falling all the way down. When
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: I was thirty five, I got a stage four cancer
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: diagnosis and that kind of broke most of my view
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: of life being a ladder. So now I just know
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: like it's certain parts of my life I'm always going
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: to have to be carried. And it's really transformed what
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: I think friendships are for, and communities for, and church
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: and anybody else is we do have to give back
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: all of the love that we know needs to carry
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: us because I'm going to need it about two seconds.
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: You feel that way, yeah, I feel unstructurally unsound. I'm
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: going to need somebody else to kind of step in
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: and shore it up.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: Do you remember the date you were diagnosed.
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well it was early September, seven years ago. But
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: it was kind of all one day. It's like an avalanche,
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: like everything goes all at the same time. So I
• 11:16
  Speaker 4: was just kind of a normal person. I wore blazers,
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: I was in my office, I was certain, and then
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: I got a phone call that I thought was like
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: a wonky gall bladder was actually stage four cancer, and
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: that was it. I just kind of slid all.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: The way down.
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: And sometimes in when I read descriptions of trauma and
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: they talk about how there's no landmarks anymore, you kind
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: of look around and you can't figure out where you
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: were before. But I also think that's just so true
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: about when you're kind of so completely transformed by an experience,
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: is there was a person you were before you just
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: can barely you can barely remember it.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: I actually sort of fascinated by grief, so I interview
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: a lot of people who have dealt with different kinds
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: of grief. Yeah, and a lot of times when they're
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: retelling their story, they're they're kind of like saying it
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: with a lot of like gusto and facts once they've
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: gotten sort of over the initial hump. But when you
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: were just telling me, I could really feel you your
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: eyes were like a little bit watery. And do you, like,
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: are you still in that you can still it seems
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: like you can feel it so directly.
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: Still, Yeah, that's true, and it is You're totally right
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: too about these like especially about tragedy. Is there's a
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: strange sort of like fact clarity that you can hear
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: people go like it was Tuesday, I was here, Like
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: there's a police report, you know, yeah, and underneath, of
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: course there's like awes emotion. But I guess that's maybe
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: because it totally changed my way that I know how
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: to interact with the world. And before I thought things
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: were durable and there was certainty, and I just had
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: to I had to like understand the world and try
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: to kind of navigate it like an obstacle course. And
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: now I just mostly when I look around and I
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: see fragility, I see people who are not going to
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: put their lives back together, or if they are it'll
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: just be forbids. And that's me too, And so I
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: think every time I think about that, I guess that's
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: kind of what it brings me back to.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: I read that I didn't know this. I read that
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: doctors gave you two years to live.
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah, at first it was like it was the fall,
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: and then I was supposed to die by June, but they.
• 13:40
  Speaker 5: Don't really tell you that.
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: You kind of like, I went through a surgery to
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: try to take out a lot of the cancer and
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: then but it had just really spread everywhere. So there
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: was a drug that was still in a clinical trial
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: phase that they thought might work, but I didn't have
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: access to it. And I also couldn't afford any of
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: the things it takes to get into, like to travel
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: and to do all that.
• 14:01
  Speaker 5: So it's kind of a they right away.
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: They kind of were like, well, people like you can
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: last somewhere of you know, they have like a fifteen
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: to eighteen kind of percent survival raid. I remember when
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: I walked out of the hospital, I remember feeling like
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: the crispness in the air, and I thought, oh, this
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: is like this is my last fall. And then like
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: I was thinking about, I was just about to celebrate
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: my son's like second birthday, and then I thought, like,
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: then this then this is his last birthday, and like
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: you try to figure out, you try to all of
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: a sudden do all the math first and lasts and
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: how it adds up, and you realize, like all at once,
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: like you can't possibly do the math to make it
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: add up to a full life. You're not if I'm
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: not going to get there, like it's that I would
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: have to learn to give up more quickly.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: You're making me a bush. Now.
• 14:57
  Speaker 6: It's just hard because I love I love trying to
• 15:00
  Speaker 6: stack things up.
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: You know, and then when it goes, it goes.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, how do you before we jump into toxic positivity,
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: because I think you have such an interesting lens on this,
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: how do you feel now? Seven years out?
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: I guess it was such a long time of being
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: in the like am I okay?
• 15:20
  Speaker 5: Stage?
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: It was about two years of like red alert, and
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: then it was another couple of years of a lot
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: of watch and see, and then I started doing like
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: kind of really pretty well. And and that's and that's
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: kind of been strange to sort of like try to
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: adjust the dial on fear as things have been really
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: gradual and not at all obvious, partly because my drug
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: has it's not it's just never had a sample size
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: of human beings it's been into, so no one had
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: anything to.
• 15:52
  Speaker 5: Compare me with.
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: So I feel pretty. I mean, I great in so
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: many ways, but I just get I get a lot
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: of scans, and I get a lot of like nervous doctors,
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: and but I think I just feel so much gratitude
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: to be able to let my guard down because I
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: really had so much hypervigilance for so long.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: I still feel that in you.
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I'm like, you know, always cagy
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: right is like and never say like, I'm great, our
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: remission is amazing. I'm like, hey, well I've got a
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: scan in a month. Like that's how I answer. And
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: I think that's that gets back to that, like that
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: feeling of fragility that I don't I don't know when
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: that goes away.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: I've read a lot of your work, but there's this
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: Daily Mail article I actually really love, and you wrote
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: it is the dominant commercial messaging for every glittering Instagram
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: influencer in the multi billion dollar health and wellness industry.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: We can heal our lives by mastering our minds. Just
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: believe that the universe has your back, but what if
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: the universe stabs you in the back. One day, I
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: had my dream job as a professor at a top university,
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: hilarious toddler and a loving husband, and the next doctors
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: were slicing me open in a search for invading tumors
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: and suggesting that my life expectancy could now be measured
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: in months rather than decades. There's this other line that
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: you say, Kate is very sick and no amount of
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: positive thinking will shrink her tumors.
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: It was probably one of the most surreal experiences to
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: be an expert in the idea that positive ideas create
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: positive realities and then be the person you know, like
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: there's always the one person who's kind of too young
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: for the problems that they have, and it was me
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: like the person at parties where they're like have you
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: heard about? And like have you heard about? And it
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: was like the expert of the idea that good things
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: happen to good people has not been just like devastated
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: by tragic illness. And that was It was especially weird
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: because I started writing really fast because I thought I
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: had so little time and then I was like, extremely honest.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: About being Hamilton.
• 18:04
  Speaker 5: Hy Alexander Hambleton did hard. That's perfect, Yes, that's exactly right.
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: Also, cancer is simultaneously incredibly boring because you sit in
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: the hospital all the time just looking around be like,
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: oh this please smells weird.
• 18:18
  Speaker 5: I don't want to do this.
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: So I wrote and wrote and but the first thing
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: I wrote that became public was this op ed for
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: the New York Times that was like, Hey, it's really
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: hard to die in a culture that believes that everything
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: happens for a reason, and people keep explaining me and
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: apparently everybody knows why I'm dying except me. And then
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: in response to that, my email was like really readily
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: available online at the time, I have like all of
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: my information. So I got straight up like thousands of
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: letters and emails that came to me that were like, hey.
• 18:52
  Speaker 5: Thanks so much for saying let's have a fewer reasons.
• 18:55
  Speaker 5: So I have a couple of reasons. I just want
• 18:56
  Speaker 5: to run by you.
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: And so I really start started like, I mean, it's
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: the one thing to study it academically. It was very
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: different to have your name at the top of the letter,
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: where it's like Kate com surely God is just to
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: let you die.
• 19:10
  Speaker 5: You're like, thanks, Gary.
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: So that really kind of gave me a very different
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: perspective on what we all hear all the time if
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: you've kind of gone through something is the types of
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: explanations became not just like one off, so they became
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: sort of like categories of like, Oh, you're the one
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: that's going to start every sentence with at least at
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: least you're at a great blah blah blah hospital, And
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: I wanted to be like, at least does not stage.
• 19:37
  Speaker 5: Five cancer, Like where are we going with this?
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah? So it was helpful in a terrible way that
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: I could start to see that most of the things
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: people say to suffering people was because of these stories
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: about positivity that kind of filtered down and made people
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: unable to offer empathy because they were so busy trying
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: to force the solution, and the solution is you and
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: a better mindset.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: Well, you said that the only thing worse than failing
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: to throw someone a life preservers handing them a reason.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: What are the things that you should absolutely not say
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: to someone going through a life altering experience?
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: I think we do this weird thing where, and it's
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: related to the best thing we do, which is that
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: we always want to relate to other people. Oh, I
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: also like blue sweaters.
• 20:28
  Speaker 5: But then it.
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: Really becomes quickly. Oh my aunt also had specifically the
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: thing you had, and like the ants of the world
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: are doing very badly and.
• 20:36
  Speaker 5: So no one nobody's story. It was like that turned
• 20:40
  Speaker 5: out great.
• 20:42
  Speaker 6: So there's a lot of.
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: Like desperate attempts to relate which have catastrophicg innings. A
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: lot of solutions people who really want you to try
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: a very little research. But recently Tik talked health trend.
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: Oh no, I remember one lady straight up and I mean,
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: these are wonderful smart people. Lady with a PhD straight
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: up handed me a blender and a juicing recip pay book.
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: She was like, I heard you have go and cancer.
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: Go and cancer means that you are nutritionally blah blah blah,
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: this is your fault. Boop.
• 21:11
  Speaker 5: It's like, so.
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: Solutions people are so well meaning and wearying, but the
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: problem is usually that you kind of probably you're just
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: gonna listen to your doctor and thanks so much, or
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: drybrushing probably won't do it for me.
• 21:25
  Speaker 5: This time.
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: I remember a lady who handed me prevention, she handed
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: me prevention magazine, and I remember it being like, oh, sweetie,
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: we're a little late for prevention magazine.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: We're a little too far down the road for that.
• 21:36
  Speaker 5: So there's solutions people.
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: There's like minimizers who really want you to know that
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: somebody else actually probably has a worse And then sometimes
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: there are people who just like you can just feel
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: that they really want you to give them the out
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: because listening to the story.
• 21:51
  Speaker 5: Will be too painful and so, and you can.
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: Hear when you're trying, you're that person because when I
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: I can tell that nobody wants to hear that thought,
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: I can hear my voice get like super high and weird,
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: like a plane taking off where I'm like and anyway,
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: it was fine, and I'll just put up because you
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: just like don't know how to land it. So in
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: those moments, you mostly feel like people accidentally like, despite
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: all our best efforts, have like a bizarrely low threshold
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: for sitting an uncertainty.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: I think so many of us have this deeply held
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: spiritual belief that karmak rewards are real. Yes, but we
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: see it all the time. I've seen it in with
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: my loved ones, that terrible things happen to good people.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: You had to absorb that idea in a way that
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: most people don't end very quickly. So, as a deeply
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: religious person and a spiritual person, how did you make
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: sense of that?
• 22:51
  Speaker 5: Right?
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: Well, because we want so much to do the thing
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: which we're all trying to do, which is we want
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: to make meaning of our life, like we want to
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: see the golden thread that goes through everything, right, And unfortunately,
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: the easier way is to maybe do one of two things.
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: One is to say everything is always adding up to
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: something else. So then we're back to math. There's no setbacks,
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: just set ups. And in that version you kind of
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: imagine a universe in which it's either ladders are sort
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: of just the feeling that and this gets to like
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: a very emotional hope is that like that nothing is
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: lost and like, of course we feel our own efforts
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: hemorrhage all the time, we lose somebody, we love, the
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: wrong person, somebody doesn't, you know, just a million kinds
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: of losses, but in our minds we're like, gosh, I
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: just need to feel like it added up. And the
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: other tendency then is to really try hard. Then if
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: it's not adding up, well, at least it's a lesson.
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: And then and end of the celebrity interview, it made
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: me who I am today. I'm like, and that's why
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: that doping scandal was.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: What's sort of interesting about your story too, is that
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: you lived, and so a lot of the people giving
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: you that everything happens for a reason, I'm sure came
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: back and emailed again saying, look, you're a New York
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: Times bestselling author, and you're like, I did you mute
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: yourself because you're giggling but I don't hear noise.
• 24:20
  Speaker 6: I'm sorry, it's like it seems so hysterical.
• 24:23
  Speaker 5: It's exactly right.
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: I felt like very trapped in that because I remember,
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: like if I remember thinking, gosh, if I die, people
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: really want me to die in a really inspirational way,
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: like very politely, and I was grateful for the life
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: I had and thank you so much, and Heaven's going
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: to be amazing. I mean, there's all kinds of ways
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: to die heroically, or if you die kicking and screeping,
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: I think like I was.
• 24:46
  Speaker 5: Robbed, which is absolutely how I felt.
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: People are like, wow, she didn't quite learn the lesson,
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: but you can never get out of the lessons model.
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: And then, of course, if you do really well and
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: you find that healing has come to your doorstep, then congratulations,
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: you now learned the lesson, and now you're spreading that
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: lesson to other people, Like I can't get out of
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: the paradigm no matter what I do.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: So I think that there is no one I like
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: to hear about toxic positivity from more than you because
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: of your unique experience. So you're a professor of religion
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: at Duke Divinity, you're diagnosed with stage four cancer, you
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: go through this whole experience and you live. Yeah, what
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: is toxic positivity? Can you define for me?
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: And forgive my It was the late nineteenth century, but
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: it was the late nineteenth century and ideas about the
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: power of the mind became incredibly popular in American culture.
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: People started experimenting with the idea that what if there
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: was kind of a lever that you could pull that
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: would force either God or the universe or causality kind
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: of bend toward you. And so they theorized that actually,
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: if you could just use your mind and harness your
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: thoughts and then use your words, that all words acted
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: then kind of like a boomerang that whatever is good
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: goes out and we'll come back to you, or conversely,
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: whatever is bad, we'll come right back to you.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: Okay before we I've kind of figure out like how
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: to phrase this, But I think that I might be
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: toxically positive.
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: Oh love you, But there's so many kinds of positivity,
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: so I want to argue that you're not because I
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: know you.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: Okay, here's I think there's okay, Like there is. I
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: pulled up the statistic because the opposing idea to this
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: is that there is a certain amount of mental toughness
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: required when people are going through a hard time with anything.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: They say, people that are optimistic live to be eighty
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: five or older. Like, there's all these studies.
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: And they're just it's weird. There's a person with a
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: clipboard right at that moment hearing their final words.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Are you okay? How do you feel about this?
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: He's so grateful? Yes, I'm sure these are amazing studies.
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: This is part of the struggle with these like positivity barometers.
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: I keep hearing, especially as part of the happiness industry.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: Is there is an industry.
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: It is a straight up world because it. It dovetails
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: very nicely into the American genre of self help, and
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: self help has got a lot of great tools. But
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: the problem is as a worldview, it tells you that
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: every single thing in your life is solvable with usually
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: like five steps or but it's a brand of inspirational
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: literature that imagines that if you just kind of raise
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: your own estimation of what you can do, that all
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: the solutions are already inside of you. And we, of course,
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: because we know that structural racism, inequality, poverty, injustice, we
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: know all those things exist. Then we know of course
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: that individualism is yeah, a sham. But we get stuck then,
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: But when we feel despair, what we really want is
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: to figure out like what is in our control? And
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: then I think the problem is is people say, well,
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: what is in control is our how we respond or
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: there is some wisdom in trying to find flexibility and
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: equanimity in our emotion. But just like want to repeat
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: how absolutely Bananda it is in like the history of
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: emotion that we are in this high water mark of
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: like every emotion should be crowded on the positive side
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: of the spectrum. It is genuinely nuts, like an emotionally
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: healthy person. And this is the very wonderful reasonable argument
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: for Lisa D. Moore the psychologist, that like mental health
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: is not having positive emotion, it's having the appropriate emotion
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: at the right time.
• 28:37
  Speaker 5: So it's like when you love that, when is this sad.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: Experience having a positive emotion? It's about having the appropriate
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: emotion at the right time.
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: I like, if it is sad, have the acknowledgment and
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: the honesty to be sad if it is delightful. But
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: it's about emotional dynamism. And so when we learn not
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: to just stay on the kind of top end the
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: roller coaster, but we learned to ride the roller coaster,
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: that's when we're talking about what resilience means and mental toughness.
• 29:06
  Speaker 5: It's not this obsessive.
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: Like either a man who's recently discovered stoicism or a
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: woman who got handed one of the bajillion like wellness
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: brochures in her essential oils class. But like all of
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: these versions are trying to pretend that the bottom register
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: of our emotions is what's actually is not pathologized, and
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: that is its own kind of madness.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: So your new book is called have a Beautiful Terrible day.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: And I've also heard you say that your life motto
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: is life is beautiful. Life is so hard. Most people,
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: like you mentioned the ones we see online, are really
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: uncomfortable holding contradictions. Yeah, you live in the contradiction. What
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: is your outlook in terms of acknowledging both at the
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: same time, how have you gotten so comfortable.
• 29:57
  Speaker 5: With that if we refuse to say the hard stuff.
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we've usually bought in accidentally to that belief that
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: our words are creating reality. It is a kind of
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: magical thinking we get we all get stuck and like,
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: we need to just let that go.
• 30:10
  Speaker 5: That is it.
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: That is not our responsibility because it will it will
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: force us to lie to other people and to ourselves.
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: And I I just can't afford not to live in reality.
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: I have to live in reality because I gotta stay like,
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: I gotta stay frosty, you know, I've got to like
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: But I want to be as awake to the beautiful
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: part because when I was sick, I was so scared
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: of missing it, and so like, I don't want to
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: miss the like gorgeous and the dumb and the funny
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: and the like wasted night. I don't I don't want
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: to miss any of that because and I need all
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: of that like a battery recharging, because maybe the next
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: week the battery is going to go way down because
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: I want to I want to be the person that's
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: there for somebody else, or I'm going to manage my
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: own you know, perennial dramatic problem. So I guess, like,
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: because I can't stop the bad thing from happening, I
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: need to learn to how to switch gears faster instead
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: of just trying to crowd my way back to the
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: like super cheerful.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: Can you guess the number one most common complaint after
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: any first date, first meeting, or interview, I wish they
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: had asked me more questions. I've studied the art of
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: conversation for a decade, and I know one thing for sure.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: The most interesting thing is to be interested. But sometimes
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: it can be awkward to enter a conversation or you
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: just don't know what to ask. Here's the solution, two words,
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: question everything. This game is like a super power in
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: your pocket because questions are an accelerator.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: There are way in I put together a.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: Deck of cards of fifty two of my favorite questions,
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: ones that have sparked some of the most meaningful and
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: insightful conversation in not just my career but also my life.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: Some are light and fun, and some are deeper and
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: more reflective. These fifty two questions will build any relationship, trust, intimacy, connection.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: It all starts with curiosity. Get your deck today at
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: www dot pretty smartshop dot com or head to my
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  Speaker 1: Instagram at Danielle Robe and click the link.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: In my bio.
• 32:32
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• 32:35
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• 32:48
  Speaker 2: Everything is not a game. It's a game changer.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: I was never an excitable person, Like I always joke
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: my mom it's like her first time on Earth, and
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: I've been here one hundred and fifty times, so like
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: if she goes to Hawaii, it's like the best trip ever.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: And if I go to Hawaii, it's like that was cool.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: But I find that the more comfortable, and I I
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: think it's happened a lot through therapy, the more comfortable
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: I am with the bad, the more excited I've been
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: able to be about the good. It's a weird sort
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: of paradigm because sometimes.
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: We get in a more sort of reluctant headspace around
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: things being wonderful because we're trying to pre disappoint ourselves
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: or manage our expectations such that it creates a kind
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: of like a different sort of rigidity. And I have
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: a Mennonites. I'm a come from this religious tradition that is,
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: you know, furniture makers and castle enthusiasts of all kinds.
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: But they're like, they're already disappointed. You can't like there.
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: You don't try to disappoint them, they're already there.
• 33:59
  Speaker 5: But what they have then.
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: Is this reflexive I mean, it's it's it's realistic pessimism
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: is what it is.
• 34:06
  Speaker 5: And I can't live there.
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: Because I hate I hate the know it allness of pessimism.
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: I genuinely don't know what's going to happen, and I
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: hope it is lovely and and I can't but I
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: can't tell myself that I should brace myself now for
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: the inevitable bad thing, because in the meantime, like I
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: would really, really really like to visit like Minnesota's world's
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: largest ball of twine or something really dumb. Hey, right
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: near you is this huge thing of ramen noodles. I've
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: were a hazmat suit to see it, and I'd actually
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: really like it if we went.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: I think you need a different friend to go to that.
• 34:46
  Speaker 6: Look, you look super cute and it has that suit.
• 34:48
  Speaker 6: They seal you right up.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: I wore one of those when I flew during COVID
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: for the first time. I scared everybody at the airport.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: I cannot wear.
• 34:57
  Speaker 5: Another one, like a space suit.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: I did it was I have photos. It's horrible anyways, Okay,
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: phrases like good ViBe's only hashtag, blessed, losing my best life.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: If you can put on your historian hat for a moment,
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: where did these and I kind of after reading your work,
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: consider these mythologies. Where did these mythologies come from?
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: That's a perfect word. I think that's exactly right. I mean,
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: best life now is a phrase that was coined by
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: televangelist jol Ostein in two thousand and four. It was
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: the name of his biography with his big toothy smile
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: on the front, and almost overnight, everybody from Oprah to
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: Hallmark Stars to you know, your annoying neighbor started using
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: it to describe like the feeling of a rival that
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: you weren't just living and it wasn't okay as life now,
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: which is what I want to put on like every
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: single T shirt.
• 35:49
  Speaker 5: It was best life now.
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: And it had a way of describing the feeling that
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: your life is a kind of show and tell. And
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: I mean, if you just think about two thousand and four,
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: that's really the beginning of a lot of forms of
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: social media that made that so normal. So even just
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: like the word blessed went from being I mean, honestly
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: very rich multi thousand year tradition, but especially in the
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: Judeo Christian tradition of an act of spiritual noticing in
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: which you would bless your people, or you would you know,
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: you can bless your house, or you would figure out
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: how to bless the day, which was a way of
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: just saying good and bad God, you are here, into
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: a kind of hashtag blest, which was like married my
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: high school swedearn Ho's tanglest barely there Bhinisia, I was
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: tang blest, and which became a way of saying, look
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: at me, and even if it was I'm so lucky.
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: It was like, look at me, I put myself in
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: the right place at the right time. Here I am
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: hashtag glust.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: Are those messages in validating gaslighting? I couldn't really pinpoint
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: the right word.
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I guess I guess the problem is is
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: there the wrong kind of gratitude? Like we should all
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: feel like we can soften our little hearts and get
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: ourselves into a place of noticing where we say, like
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: where is all the light filtering into this beautiful room?
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: And that kind of noticing does really help us, especially
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: when things are hard. It is not the gratitude police
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: that's like make a list.
• 37:32
  Speaker 5: It's like I can't, But.
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: I still made lists on my worst days because I
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: needed to practice noticing that. Actually I had an unbelievably
• 37:41
  Speaker 4: funny nurse who let me pretend that he was a
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: vampire and that when I left that he would use
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: my blood for.
• 37:48
  Speaker 5: His own purposes, and like that made my day.
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: Like the creepiness with which he would like stroke me
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: inside of my elbow.
• 37:55
  Speaker 5: Is like, sir, I'm so uncomfortable. I'm so into this
• 37:58
  Speaker 5: thinking for making my dad.
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: But if I don't pay attention, I will miss a
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: cancer kick kink. It really is, it is, it is,
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: And I really I guess like I was going to
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: have more bad days than good, so I had to learn.
• 38:15
  Speaker 5: I learned something.
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: But the wrong kind of gratitude has a way of saying,
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: look at me, look at all that I've accomplished, and
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: it has an accidental comparativeness that is really that's really
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: hard for people.
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: I was watching a David Letterman Obama interview a few
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: years ago and they were talking about luck, and Obama
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: has this really deep belief that a lot of luck
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: played a role in his life. And I know a
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: lot of successful people that don't believe in the idea
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: of luck either.
• 38:50
  Speaker 5: Yeah, they would.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: Well to me, the idea of hashtag blessed is like
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: a sort of symptom of that, like I made the
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: right decisions and now I'm here. Yeah, I get to
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: go to Hawaii, I get to be married to my
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: high school sweetheart, whatever that is. Is there any of
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: that wrapped in there?
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Because what we're really like framing around, especially with luck,
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: is the role of agency, like the role of being
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: able to try, okay, and how much people can try
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: and then it changes their life is the source of
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: like endless philosophical debate how much control do we have
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: over our lives? And when you try to eliminate the
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: idea of luck, what you're trying to eliminate is the
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: idea of randomness and get back to a total framework
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: of control. What they're saying is I actually had most
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: I mostly had control over my life and it worked out.
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: Or because then they'll say the harder you try, the
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: luckier you'll get. Right, they're trying to put it into
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: a paradigm of like, yes, I got knocked down, I
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: got back up. I got knocked down, I got back up.
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: The problem with those frameworks for luck is we really
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: all inside of the limitations of our context, what we're
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: born into what Simon before calls our facticity, like just
• 40:10
  Speaker 4: the luckiness or unluckiness of the zip code we were
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: born into and all the facts. Inside of that framework,
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: there is a small window of opportunity, but how big
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: or narrow that window is is so variable based on
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: one thousand factors, And so for people to say, well
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: I solved the problem of randomness is it's cheap. But
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: the deep, I think totally necessary, difficult way that we're
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: trying to live lives, awake, alive. But then whise is
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: to figure out exactly what is in my control. And
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: that's why alcoholics anonymous have like found that beautiful, priceless
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: like peace in the serenity prayer where they're like, God,
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: give me the wisdom to know the difference between the
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: things I can change, you know, and the things I can't.
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: But if we pretend that life is just a system
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: we set up and now we're living at, we've lost
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: most of the drama, the tragedy, the action, and then
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: the just shocking beauty of it all.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: You've coined the term the gospel of hustle, and I
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: think it ties into a lot of what you just
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: said in terms of like I got I worked hard,
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: I got knocked down, I got back up. Yeah, how
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: does the the hustle porn of it all? They know
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: toxic positivity because and.
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: I love watching people try, like I I'm the person
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: that gets misty.
• 41:45
  Speaker 5: I had watching a woman do a pull up at
• 41:47
  Speaker 5: the gym. I'm like, it's really hard.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: If you're over seventy and you're doing a pull up,
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: I'm crying. I have my all my Instagram videos are
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: older women being physically strong.
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: It's like watching someone try. What it feels like is
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: you're watching a miracle. You're watching it's like a baby
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: being born. You can't even believe it because they didn't
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: have to, or maybe they almost didn't, and you're watching
• 42:15
  Speaker 4: sort of like if you're you know, driving stick and
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: you see a gear catch and then you're in a
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: new place, and like it creates awe and it should
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: because when any of us find it in ourselves to
• 42:28
  Speaker 4: try to get back up again, it is a miracle
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: and like clap, clap, clap.
• 42:33
  Speaker 5: It is is beautiful and I.
• 42:35
  Speaker 4: Love and I love the feeling of it. I mean,
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: the second I was better enough to try, I just
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: could feel the like Catharsis of what it teaches us
• 42:45
  Speaker 4: about ourselves, like well we're even good at like where
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: our gifts meet the world. There's the joy of being
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: tired because you wanted to do something. Looh, it's it's
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: my favorite thing. But when we pretend that it will
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: be based on endless you know, like endless effort, endless,
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: we've accidentally gotten ourselves caught up in a form of
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: capitalism that pretends that like with just what the right
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: kind of attitude that every single person can try, and
• 43:17
  Speaker 4: they can't always. Sometimes we just need to like lean
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: in the arms of those we love and that's it.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: I did a paper in college on the myth of
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: the American Dream. Yeah, and they say nowadays that only
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: eight percent of kids raised in the bottom twenty percent
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: moved to the top twenty percent as adults. So like,
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: we have very small class and financial mobility in America,
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: even though it is greater than other countries. So I
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: do think the idea of possibility is a little bit
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: outsized here. It's also kind of what makes America and
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: the idea of America incredible, and it's like what makes
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: people want to try in some ways. Why have you
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: found that Western culture is so specifically obsessed with positivity
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: and talk positivity?
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: Well, and I think that's a perfect that's a perfect
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: window into the beauty and the tragedy of the American
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: dream is I mean, being Canadian, it is very difficult
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: to fall all the way down because, unlike in the
• 44:34
  Speaker 4: United States, we don't have medical bankruptcy, which is the
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: number one cause of bankruptcy in America. So it's not
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: a story about people failing because of their own whatever
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: it's a feeling. It's a story about people having everything
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: cut out from under them after the worst day of
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: their life. So there are parts about the American system
• 44:53
  Speaker 4: that are so anathetical to the idea, but people can
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: keep trying because the stakes are so high and low. This, however,
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: got so much more social fluidity in terms of the
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: ability to like, you subsidized. I'm just gonna say you.
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: You subsidize debt, which other countries don't, which means you
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: can take on greater loans, accept greater risk, and so
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: no wonder there are these mythologies of risk that say,
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: don't worry, you'll never fall all the way down. As
• 45:21
  Speaker 4: long as it's up to you, you'll be okay. And
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: what's funny about risk is if we are I remember,
• 45:28
  Speaker 4: so I used to study a lot of this with
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: the story about the Prosperity Gospel that I was writing.
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: Is what makes people more tolerant of taking a chance?
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: And what they found was if you tell a story
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: of what we would say like a higher anthropology, a
• 45:44
  Speaker 4: higher estimation of what people can do, people find that
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: they have a greater willingness to and I say this
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: a nice way gamble with their lives, and so I
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: think the problem is is that they're then told that
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: they're not gambled. And I think that's where that's where
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: we are. We're in a strange optimism delusion cycle that
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: benefits some people and is radically punitive to others.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: Why is it big business now?
• 46:15
  Speaker 5: Why?
• 46:15
  Speaker 6: Oh, good vibe good vibes?
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: Well, it's probably the bedrock belief of the twelve billion
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: dollar wellness industry, which wants us to want to be good, better, best.
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: It wants to demonize mediocrity and by that I mean
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: looking like a normal human woman at any time. It
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: wants us to also believe that it's entirely within our control,
• 46:39
  Speaker 4: which also means entirely within our purchasing power. It is
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: also like, if you think about entirely how our content
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: is packaged, it is so much easier to tell a
• 46:49
  Speaker 4: short positive thought in a sixty second Instagram reel than
• 46:53
  Speaker 4: it is to tell a more nuanced, realistic thought, because
• 46:57
  Speaker 4: you've fallen off the you've just like fallen off our
• 47:00
  Speaker 4: ability to package and accelerate thoughts. So really, like most
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: of our mediums accelerate the spread of false optimism far
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: greater than they give us something a little truer that
• 47:14
  Speaker 4: we can hang our hat on.
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: I thought a lot about the deepness of that for women.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: I haven't thought as much about it for men. How
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: do you see it affecting men?
• 47:25
  Speaker 4: They don't think that they're positive thinkers. I think they
• 47:28
  Speaker 4: think that they're part of this stoic masculinity in which
• 47:35
  Speaker 4: they are just they're learning to be impassive, they're learning
• 47:38
  Speaker 4: to let it go, they're learning to the problem is
• 47:41
  Speaker 4: is just reinforcing this kind of heroicness that men have
• 47:47
  Speaker 4: already been socialized into. And so now now we have
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: to talk about the Roman Empire all the time and
• 47:53
  Speaker 4: pretend that our best beliefs come from like the leaders
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: of a slaving empire.
• 47:57
  Speaker 6: Like it really is nuts if you think about it carefully.
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: There's this quote that Glennon Doyle gave one of your
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: books that I love and I love it regardless because
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: it's high praise, but I love it because I know you.
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: And she said, Kate Boehler is the only one we
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: can trust to tell us the truth.
• 48:20
  Speaker 6: She is so sad at parties, she doesn't care what's
• 48:22
  Speaker 6: going on.
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: Well, you do know how to make people feel weird
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: with not what's the opposite of small talk at a party?
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: You do do that really well. I appreciate it because
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: I small talk, But why do you think it's so
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: hard for people to accept your honesty? Because you wrap
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: it up in a lot of humor. So I don't
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: find it hard to accept, but I know you feel
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: like people sometimes can't internalize all that It.
• 48:54
  Speaker 4: Was maybe just the loneliness of having the same problem
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: for too long, especially to a lot of people find
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: it easier to accept a truth once, but it's a
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: little hard the twelve time when it makes us feel helpless.
• 49:07
  Speaker 4: So I guess that's partly why I'm so invested in
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: letting us all and really primarily me let go of
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: like a framework of control. I do need in my
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: life to really learn to try to try. So I
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: love thinking about agency and like, gosh, how to like
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: how to have that lovely sprinting feeling, but I need
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: to be able to learn to do it while simultaneously
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: knowing when to run and when I genuinely like have
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: to stop.
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: One of the things I really appreciate about your work
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: is that there are people who talk about toxic positivity
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: or ideas like giving yourself permission to rest, and I
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: feel like the TikTok idea of soft Girl era. Part
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: of me loves that I maybe want to be a
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: little softer, and part of me feels like, if you
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: want anything, you got to run after it a little bit. Yeah,
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: and you do. You're super ambitious, and so that's what
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: I really yeah today again, Yeah, I.
• 50:11
  Speaker 4: Love I love being ambitious, and I thought maybe I
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: wasn't supposed to.
• 50:14
  Speaker 5: Be ambitious, but I love it. Yeah.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: Well, it makes me excited about your work because I'm like, Okay,
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: this is applicable, right, Like you can be both of
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: those things. Kind of is you living in that contradiction
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: once again?
• 50:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess the ambition just has to be bubbled
• 50:30
  Speaker 4: by the fact that it's going to have to also
• 50:32
  Speaker 4: look like interdependence that it's not. It's not radical individualism.
• 50:36
  Speaker 4: I'm not going to do this. I'm going to do
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: everything in my power, but I'm going to come to
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: the end of myself fast and other people need to
• 50:43
  Speaker 4: be there. So I have to still have to stay
• 50:46
  Speaker 4: in the bubble wrap feeling of other people. And if
• 50:50
  Speaker 4: I'm too far out of that, then I'm probably not
• 50:52
  Speaker 4: paying attention. And so to my own needs or the
• 50:56
  Speaker 4: needs of other people. So that's kind of maybe more
• 50:59
  Speaker 4: of the start stop feeling.
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: So live in the idea of community. Yeah, while simultaneously
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: doing everything you yourself can do.
• 51:09
  Speaker 4: That's right. Get in there, girl, I really like that feeling. Yeah,
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: and you're so scary fun you really you really get
• 51:15
  Speaker 4: in there?
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: Thank you? You want to give permission two people to
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: feel like human beings? Really do you give me the
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: permission to be messy? Which I had great parents, but
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: I didn't get that, and not a lot of people
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: I have met in my life make I have like
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: maybe one or two friends that give me that. So
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: I'm really grateful for you for that. I think you
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: probably give a lot of people permission. Thanks Is it
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: because you yourself are comfortable with the feeling? It's like,
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: how do you go about like it's a gift? I
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: wish I could give people? How do you give people permission?
• 52:07
  Speaker 4: I guess maybe just keep living at the edges of
• 52:10
  Speaker 4: what you know how to do, because you're gonna and
• 52:12
  Speaker 4: then then people can see the edges and that's either
• 52:15
  Speaker 4: going to make you feel really embarrassed, and I feel
• 52:17
  Speaker 4: embarrassed a lot, and not just like it's cute, like
• 52:21
  Speaker 4: kind of shame sometimes because I'm not going to be
• 52:23
  Speaker 4: able to be so polished. Yeah, but at least it
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: also to me still feels like the edges of trying,
• 52:29
  Speaker 4: and that's what feels really good about it too.
• 52:32
  Speaker 5: So I want to be there. I want to be
• 52:33
  Speaker 5: there with you. I'll be there with with the.
• 52:35
  Speaker 4: People who feel it too.
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: Do you think negativity serves us at all?
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, yeah, I want to live in reality.
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: I want to live in reality. Reality.
• 52:44
  Speaker 5: I can do something with delusion.
• 52:47
  Speaker 4: It's just you threw glitter in my eyes and now
• 52:49
  Speaker 4: I have to clean it up and do more work.
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: What do you feel like your relationship is now with hope?
• 53:03
  Speaker 4: You know, it's kind of also how I feel about
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: friendship really is like hope is the beautiful Like spiritually,
• 53:11
  Speaker 4: I think that hope is like the anchor thrown in
• 53:14
  Speaker 4: the future that God pulls us towards.
• 53:16
  Speaker 5: And like it.
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: And it is like, but I can feel like the
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: learning to kind of like keep pace with hope or
• 53:23
  Speaker 4: like set the dial on it. That's the thing where
• 53:25
  Speaker 4: like you want people to live in exactly the right
• 53:27
  Speaker 4: amount of hope with you, like they push it too.
• 53:30
  Speaker 4: Far and then you're back and like I don't know,
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: I can't reach for that, and you turn it down
• 53:34
  Speaker 4: too low and you're like, wait a minute, Like how much.
• 53:37
  Speaker 5: Do you expect from me? It's kind of insulting.
• 53:39
  Speaker 4: It's like, really, just live in that right little place,
• 53:42
  Speaker 4: and like that gets us back to like the like
• 53:45
  Speaker 4: the feeling that a little like the good things can
• 53:48
  Speaker 4: catch you know, that lets me puts me back in
• 53:51
  Speaker 4: a place of possibility. It is it is the opposite
• 53:54
  Speaker 4: to despair, and despair is on the edges of every
• 53:57
  Speaker 4: day from me at the beginning of the end. But
• 54:00
  Speaker 4: like hope is the place where like something beautiful is
• 54:03
  Speaker 4: going to happen, not just could happen, but it will.
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: Through cancer, through the ups and downs, through your work.
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: Where do you stand today on the mindset or the
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: idea that God has a plan?
• 54:22
  Speaker 4: If God has a plan, I have not yet been
• 54:24
  Speaker 4: made aware of most of the variables, and it.
• 54:27
  Speaker 5: Might just be a huge surprise later.
• 54:30
  Speaker 4: But without knowing what's going to happen, it's my job
• 54:36
  Speaker 4: to learn how to live in uncertainty. And to do that,
• 54:39
  Speaker 4: I've got to learn to ride the roller coaster of
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: the good and the bad. That to me feels like
• 54:45
  Speaker 4: the only way I know how to stay awake to
• 54:51
  Speaker 4: the world as it is beautiful and terrible.
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: I read a CNN article of yours and you said
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: God is not protecting us from this, but being with
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: us during the storm. I really liked that.
• 55:05
  Speaker 4: Thanks. Yeah, I do believe in a wftness of what
• 55:09
  Speaker 4: God and other people not, so you know it. Just
• 55:12
  Speaker 4: it'll feel a lot like love.
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: Okay, rapid fire, real quick before you leave me. Yeah,
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: tell me what is the best thing you've ever quit?
• 55:20
  Speaker 5: Oh, tennis. I'm not smart enough for tennis.
• 55:23
  Speaker 6: You got your brain works too fast and really bad.
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: An important lesson motherhood has taught you.
• 55:29
  Speaker 4: You can throw things directly at your kid's head. If
• 55:31
  Speaker 4: it's soft, he'll think it's very funny. You won't look
• 55:34
  Speaker 4: like a great mom in public, but it's hysterical and
• 55:36
  Speaker 4: you'll both love it.
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: What is one small thing that always makes you smile?
• 55:40
  Speaker 4: I love this thing called noodling where you just don't
• 55:44
  Speaker 4: expect something to be like useful, and you set aside
• 55:47
  Speaker 4: a bunch of time and then you just kind of
• 55:49
  Speaker 4: and other people and just you don't you get to be.
• 55:51
  Speaker 5: Bad at whatever you're doing. And I'm really into you
• 55:55
  Speaker 5: like that.
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: Okay, you have an amazing podcast that I love called
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: Everything Bins. What is one episode people should start with
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: if they haven't tuned in yet?
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: Oh?
• 56:06
  Speaker 4: I remember the I had a great conversation with Stanley
• 56:08
  Speaker 4: Tucci about who was thinking about food and taste, but
• 56:13
  Speaker 4: also like how it taught him to kind of win
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: and lose in life, especially it taught him how to lose.
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: Do you have a copy of your book by you?
• 56:24
  Speaker 5: Oh?
• 56:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah, sure, I like to keep a real inspirational snack.
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: Can you read me one of your favorite blessings? Oh? Yes?
• 56:37
  Speaker 4: All right, this is not your best self. Okay, God,
• 56:42
  Speaker 4: I can't tell which person I'll be today, kind and loving.
• 56:45
  Speaker 4: Turn the other cheek and I'll be right there, soft
• 56:48
  Speaker 4: but strong. I will keep no record of wrongs. I
• 56:52
  Speaker 4: might be someone else entirely brittle and judgmental. I'm taking
• 56:56
  Speaker 4: my share, and you deal with it alone. Hard but weak.
• 57:00
  Speaker 4: I will keep every record, damn it. I'm an accountant
• 57:04
  Speaker 4: in a world that does not give me what I'm owed.
• 57:08
  Speaker 4: God bless these multiple selves you know, of course, you
• 57:11
  Speaker 4: know are parts of a whole. You send the love
• 57:15
  Speaker 4: I have to give you grieve the pain that causes
• 57:18
  Speaker 4: me to withhold. You send your spirit every day not
• 57:21
  Speaker 4: to stitch us back together, but to heal every tender
• 57:24
  Speaker 4: part from the inside out. So in the meantime, bless
• 57:28
  Speaker 4: this generous self, Bless this breakable self. Bless these many
• 57:32
  Speaker 4: parts and make them whole.
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: That was so beautiful.
• 57:37
  Speaker 4: Thanks Love, Thank you so much for having me.
• 57:39
  Speaker 5: This was ridiculously fun.
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good day.
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: To have a good day.
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: I'll see you next week. Shop