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How Many Absences Can A Family Hold · Inside The Consulting Room - Understanding the Child Behind the Behaviour

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome back.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: This is Kim Lee, Child and Adolescent Psychotherapist, and this is episode eight in the series The Avoidant Parent and the Effects Upon Their Children.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm widening the lens slightly here because I don't want to look just at the effects upon children, but how the other party, the other parent, is affected.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: The reason for doing this is because when I thought about the different permutations of what families look like, what I recalled was that sometimes the other parent may not even be living in the same household.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: It may be that that relationship has well ended or is in a new form.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: And perhaps the avoidant parent is relying upon other people.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so we need we need to think about that from the point of view of how they're affected, because I think you know typically we think about the effects within the context of the family, which from the outside may appear to be intact, but emotionally one person is carrying almost everything, and they initiate the difficult conversations and decisions and respond to children's distress, and they try and repair things and anticipate difficulties and try and prevent them.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: And eventually they realize that they they they can't do it because it's too much for one person.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now, all the while this is happening, the avoidant parent will be saying, uh, you don't understand I have to do this, this, this, you know, and probably a whole list of different things, all of which are true, but you know, physical presence and and completing tasks isn't the same as emotional participation.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: And in earlier episodes, I've considered what parental avoidance does to children.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: But as I said, you know, when when there's an adult who is trying to live, love or parent alongside someone who repeatedly withdraws from emotional responsibility, there is harm.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: And in its own way, that also trickles down into the children because they see, they see what is happening.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now, avoidance tends to draw people in, people that we call empaths, who will be activated in terms of their desire to help.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: They will be genuine, they will be appreciative, and therefore it's almost like they can't say no.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: They will see things, they will anticipate things, and they will they will behave in many ways unconditionally until it becomes too much.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: So what then tends to happen is that the avoidant person almost becomes the relationship's emotional manager, and they they are managing it in a way which is it suits them and fits their narrative, but the other partner, the other person, uh has to be very careful.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they wait for the right moment to say things, they choose their words carefully, they try not to sound critical.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they will say things like, This isn't a criticism, it's an observation.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Now they're they're having to preface their remarks because they know that the avoidant is somebody who is likely to experience anything as criticism for all kinds of reasons.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that same person, the empath, will make allowances, uh, they will try and accommodate.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: But over time, what happens is this this this risk this this range of features becomes a way of life.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, the the the person then begins to organize their communication and themselves around the other person.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that they they think to themselves, is this a good time to say this, or how can I say this without causing withdrawal, or should I mention it at all?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Should I just get on and manage it myself?
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: So the question is no longer simply what needs to be discussed, it's whether the relationship can survive the discussion.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: And this creates a sort of psychological, or trying to add again, vigilance.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Viligence is something else entirely.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: So they start to monitor their tone, mood, and emotional distance, and they stop asking for things, and they get locked into that state, and uh very often they are what they do is not acknowledged, which causes them to stop expecting reciprocity, and they will still find ways of rationalizing the fact that it's being used horribly.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: But they also learn when the subtle signs that withdrawal are approaching, not because the avoidant adult raises their voice or makes an explicit threat, it it's that their power lies in, well, I use the word power, I think that's a bit of an illusion, but it lies really in the possibility of disappearance.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: And if you say too much, ask too much, or become too emotionally uh activated, then connection could be removed.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: So the person therefore begins to reduce themselves.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: They simplify their need, they become self-reliant, they suppress emotions, they accept partial responsibility, they become grateful for small moments of emotional availability when they happen.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: But this creates a profound confusion because there's no obvious event to point towards, nothing dramatic has necessarily happened.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: And every time something does happen, it's rationalized.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: But what then happens is that we see if we stand back, the hurt was never acknowledged, the kindness never reciprocated, no apologies, and you know, the person is affected by an accumulation of absences.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it it can be difficult to explain this to people.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Some people don't.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: They don't describe it, and if they do, they do so in the kindest way possible, until eventually what happens is that they've had enough.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: Then what can happen once they've moved past the denial of the situation, then something happens.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if if it's the case that this is somebody who is living in the same household, they're they're a bit trapped.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because their desire to leave may very well be parallel paralleled by feelings of guilt, but they know that they're stuck in a situation where whichever way, whichever way they they move, uh nothing is going to change.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because they've adapted and they don't know their way out.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they use the example, I don't know if any of you have ever seen those those cheese graters that are square and and you sort of shred things and they go on the inside.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's a bit like I used to say it's like being on the inside of a cheese grater, but actually that wouldn't work technically.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: But generally speaking, whichever way you turn, you're gonna get hurt, and so you stay still.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: So you know when when a person is in that situation, they really are stuck, and they start to break down uh in one form or another, they start to they they they start to move away, if not emotionally, they they they also become in a sense avoidant because what is the point?
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: And even though the avoidant may present as happy and affable and so on, uh what what what the the other person has learned is that yeah, well, those things are on the surface, but what we also know is that the selfsame person can become highly chaotic, highly accusatory, highly preoccupied with themselves, and everything is just fine so long as you play the game.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: You start asking difficult questions or you start talking about things that the avoidant can't cope with, then it's going to result in argument.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: And what will happen is that argument will be your fault because what you've done is you've confronted reality, uh, but you will be hit with a with a with a barrage of examples of when you have actually been the person who has created the problems.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: I've I've observed something like this, and at no point did the avoidant person actually take any responsibility at all.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: It was always their children's father's fault.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: And the the the examples were enormous, not just not just him, but his his family, his friends, and so this this avoidant person was actually presenting themselves as someone who was the victim when in fact they were the persecutor, and closer examination revealed a history of uh such behavior.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this makes it incredibly hard for children because they will be conflicted between the narrative of the avoidant parent and that of the partner.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: How is a child supposed to make some kind of usable sense of that?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: They might they may find themselves actually supporting the avoidant parent, making excuses and explanations intended to protect children.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: But the parent providing them is also protecting the avoidant adult from the emotional consequences and reality of their behavior.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: So they become a kind of interpreter between the parent and the ch and the children.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: And the children bring their their disappointment to the available adult or parent.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: The the avoidant parent remains relatively untouched by it, or they move into a kind of victim state where they are powerless and then see their children as villainizing them.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it's I mean it's an absolutely awful situation.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think what happens is is that the other the other parent feels enormous anger, but but also guilt about feeling the anger.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: They become very confused because they are part of the situation.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: They may go on to develop symptoms, anxiety, low mood, sleeplessness, physical exhaustion, loss of confidence, all these things may gr gradually develop outside of the family home.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: They actually might be doing quite well.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: And one has to ask, why is that?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we know from previous podcasts about how narcissists and abusers will present oneself to the outside world and another inside the family home.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this is a fact, this does happen, but I want to put alongside that there are some situations where actually the so-called abuser is actually the abused, and what is and they are seen differently outside the family home because they are different.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: They may even not talk about what it's like in the family home because they've learned that that's not a good idea.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: So they end up carrying everything and trying to do the very best they can.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: And this is men and women.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's you know, let's let's not this is not gender specific.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think very often men are identified as abusers and narcissists and avoidance and all manner of other things.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: And in my experience, and I have to say that largely that's what I've found.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: However, it we we must also remember that we're talking about a pattern, not a gender.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking about a person whose traits are not gender specific.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: But at the center of all of this, we're talking about children and the effects upon children.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: And this then uh raises so many questions.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: And the question I have, I think, or the question I want to raise is okay, well, maybe this is a situation uh that is is is going to fall apart, that aren't receptive to intervention, help, awareness, they're too invested in where they are.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: But what about what about the victims?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, uh as much as a shameless plug uh this may seem to be, in my book, The Life That Belongs to You, I describe a process of recognition, reckoning, and recovery.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: And although that book is concerned more broadly with harmful and controlling relationships, the framework is absolutely relevant here because it's about damaging relationships.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: In it, I talk about the recognition means restoring reality.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it begins with naming what's actually happening, not what the avoidant person promises will happen, not what the relationship actually becomes during its better moments, but the repeated pattern.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: And this is, I say this so often, isolated events can be rationalized.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Patterns can't.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Do the difficult conversations lead to engagement or withdrawal?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Is responsibility shared or displaced?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Is kindness acknowledged and reciprocated?
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: Can hurt be discussed?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Can the relationship repair itself?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: Does one's per one person's emotional comfort consistently depend upon the other person's silence?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the next stage recognition, or rather, in this stage of recognition, it's painful because it challenges hope.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the partner may have spent years believing that they they've found the right way to be and to have to have chosen the right moments.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: But recognition means accepting that one person can't create mutuality alone.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the next stage is about the reckoning, and that involves understanding the cost.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: What has carrying this relationship required?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: What feelings have been suppressed?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: What ambitions have been postponed?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: What happened to the physical and psychological health?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: How have the children been affected?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: What have they learned about intimacy, responsibility in the expression of need?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Reckoning isn't about revenge, it's about punishment.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it is an honest accounting because without it, the person remains vulnerable to minimizing what the relationship has done to them.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: Recovery means beginning to reclaim the parts of the self that have disappeared.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't automatically require the relationship to end, but often that will happen.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: But it does require the pattern to change.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: The avoidant adult must take responsibility for their withdrawal.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they can explain it as much as they want, but as I say so often, explanations are not excuses.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: They have to participate in difficult conversations and they must engage consistently.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Now, most importantly, change must become visible in behavior, not just words.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: And insight without participation changes very little.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: So the the really important thing is that the recovery for the individual needs to go through these three stages, but it has to be something which then takes them to a position of being able to facilitate a shift inside the relationship or leave the relationship and recover.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: So often I work with people who've endured these kinds of relationships and I see the damage it's done to them.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's not apparent to other people, but in the consulting room, everything pretty much is visible.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I think the other the other thing here is how recovery helps children.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: I see that in the consulting room as well.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: But a recovered parent or partner can help their children because they are modeling something about how to be okay and how to make a distinction between what is theirs and what is not theirs.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: They can do what I rather moralistically, it's not intended to be moralistic at all, but they can do the right thing.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: And quite often what will happen is that the children will see that the can that a parent who is consistently trying to do the right thing, and and by the right thing, I mean according to their own principles, has value, and they will internalize that.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: In some way, it may offset some of the damage, but I think here what is important is that a parent who is who is not recovered is still caught up in the system and still maintains, not because they consciously wish it, they just don't know what to do, but they still maintain the system as it is.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: As children grow, they learn to make decisions about what was healthy and what wasn't.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a competition because even in the avoidant parent, there are important parts that they that they possess which children genuinely love.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the the final line on this is if you are in a relationship, man or woman, and the parent or partner fits the profile for somebody who is avoidant, and you're suffering, and understandably you would be.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: What is important here is how do you pay attention to it.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: The book is a guide, but there are people you can see because your psychological health will suffer.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: The avoidant will regard this as weakness, very probably.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I sincerely hope that this is useful.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: In the next episode, I want to look at how the avoidant pattern can begin to change and what genuine engagement requires from the parent, and how how children can be helped more out of their established roles, and why repair must involve more than promises or explanations.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening.