Latest / Inside The Consulting Room - Understanding the Child Behind the Behaviour / Dangerous Relationships Episode 2. Living Inside The Relationship

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Dangerous Relationships Episode 2. Living Inside The Relationship · Inside The Consulting Room - Understanding the Child Behind the Behaviour

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome back.
0:02
SPEAKER_00: This is Kim Lee, Child and Adolescent Psychotherapist.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: First of all, my apologies.
0:07
SPEAKER_00: I haven't been quite on it where my podcasts are concerned, so I haven't posted for a little while.
0:14
SPEAKER_00: And so now I'm back, and we are in the second episode entitled Dangerous Relationships.
0:24
SPEAKER_00: And in this, I want to focus in this particular episode, I want to focus uh on the real experience.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: So this is about living inside the relationship.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: And in the previous episode, that was the starter, we explored sociopathy from a clinical perspective, and we considered how clinicians arrive at formulations rather than assumptions, and why diagnosis requires careful assessment, and why understanding personality is always more useful than relying on stereotypes.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: And so today I want to move away from diagnosis altogether.
1:07
SPEAKER_00: As I say this, I am prompted to say that often I will see parents of children who are requiring treatment, and sometimes parents have already decided what is wrong with the child.
1:25
SPEAKER_00: Very often, parents will arrive saying, I think he or she has this condition.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: And quite often that that quasi-diagnosis has been reached via Dr.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: Google.
1:40
SPEAKER_00: Now it may be that they're right.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes that is the case, but that's only part of the whole diagnostic process.
1:49
SPEAKER_00: And we talk about differential diagnosis and how we look at other explanations, other factors, so that we can have a clear and informed clinical picture, which then influences, or I suppose better informs how we proceed therapeutically, because it may be that additional diagnostic testing might be required.
2:15
SPEAKER_00: It could be that medication may be indicated, or it could be that certainly the approach that I provide isn't isn't the right one.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: And there are so many factors involved.
2:26
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, this is this is true with with all mental health conditions, and I suppose you could say the same with physical conditions as well.
2:36
SPEAKER_00: So I suppose by saying this, what I want to just underpin is that listening to this podcast does not in any way make it possible for you to diagnose someone, unless, of course, you're a fellow clinician.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, you you will understand the uh the sentiment here.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: But again, moving away from diagnosis, what I want to do is to focus on what it's like living inside the relationship, because if you have lived inside one of these, the diagnosis is rarely the thing that you will be occupied with or preoccupied with.
3:16
SPEAKER_00: Your experience, however, is now throughout the series I've tried to ask one question more than any other, and that is what effect does this person's internal world have upon everyone around them?
3:30
SPEAKER_00: And today we begin answering that question.
3:33
SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the greatest misunderstandings about diagnosis and dangerous relationships is the belief that they always begin with danger, and in fact, most of them don't.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: And if they did, few people would remain.
3:49
SPEAKER_00: But instead, they often begin with something altogether different, things like attention, interest, excitement, confidence, possibility.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: Many people describe feeling unusually understood, and some talk about the relationship progressing very quickly, others describe an extraordinary sense of connection, they feel chosen, they feel special, they feel seen.
4:14
SPEAKER_00: And so often this is illusion.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: But when you are on the receiving end, it feels very real.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: It's important to understand that none of those experiences are in themselves evidence of manipulation.
4:31
SPEAKER_00: You know, healthy relationships can begin that way too.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: The difference lies elsewhere.
4:37
SPEAKER_00: Healthy relationships develop through mutual discovery.
4:41
SPEAKER_00: Exploitative relationships often deepen through strategic observation.
4:48
SPEAKER_00: One is trying to know you, and the other may be trying to understand how you work.
4:54
SPEAKER_00: And there's an important distinction.
4:57
SPEAKER_00: Healthy intimacy asks who are you?
5:00
SPEAKER_00: Exploitation asks how can you become useful to me.
5:05
SPEAKER_00: And that usefulness can take many forms.
5:08
SPEAKER_00: It can be about money, status, sex, housing, professional influence, practical help, emotional security and access to children.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: And these really are things that become normalized.
5:22
SPEAKER_00: And certainly from my own personal experience, I can identify with this as the recipient, and how how that the those things I've mentioned become kind of normalized to the extent where one doesn't question, one simply does, and one simply quietly colludes until the the pattern of behavior becomes unavoidable to confront.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: So sometimes it's simply someone who is dependable enough to absorb responsibility while the other person avoids it.
6:06
SPEAKER_00: And I think you know that that is, once again, I mean, that I can identify with that.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: But the point is not so much about what is being sought, the point is that the relationship gradually becomes organized around acquisition rather than reciprocity.
6:23
SPEAKER_00: And this is one of the reasons these relationships can be so difficult to recognize.
6:29
SPEAKER_00: Because the manipulation is often purposeful, not necessarily emotional or instrumental, and that word is important.
6:36
SPEAKER_00: Instrumental means that other human beings gradually become a means to an end.
6:42
SPEAKER_00: They cease to be valued primarily for who they are.
6:45
SPEAKER_00: Instead, they are valued for what they provide.
6:49
SPEAKER_00: And one of the saddest moments in therapy is when somebody realizes they've spent years to trying to become more valuable to someone who was never really interested in knowing them anyway.
7:01
SPEAKER_00: And that recognition can be pr profoundly painful because it is dehumanizing, devaluing, it arouses considerable pain and anger.
7:14
SPEAKER_00: But it sort of also asks us to grieve not only the relationship we had, but the relationship we believed we had.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: And this process rarely happens all at once.
7:28
SPEAKER_00: Trust of sorts is built first, and then dependence follows.
7:33
SPEAKER_00: And only later do the consistency or the inconsistencies begin emerging.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: Promises become unreliable, explanations become implausible, responsibility quietly disappears, and lies become easier to notice.
7:50
SPEAKER_00: And when the words and the actions don't match, and we start to see traits of avoidant behaviour.
7:56
SPEAKER_00: We start to see that things just don't add up.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: We see that people stay away from innocently asked questions, which clearly reveals there's something more going on.
8:11
SPEAKER_00: Yet, strangely, many partners continue doubting themselves, not because they're unintelligent, quite the opposite.
8:19
SPEAKER_00: What they're trying to reconcile are two entirely different realities: the person they first encountered and the person they are now with.
8:28
SPEAKER_00: And human beings naturally seek consistency.
8:32
SPEAKER_00: We want to believe that people are fundamentally who they appear to be.
8:36
SPEAKER_00: But when behavior repeatedly contradicts that belief, we often question our interpretation before we question the relationship.
8:45
SPEAKER_00: It's almost as if there's a kind of sense of responsibility for your own confusion, even though you didn't cause it.
8:53
SPEAKER_00: And I think this is one of the reasons why intelligent people remain in exploitative relationships, not because they can't see, but because they continue searching for an explanation that preserves hope.
9:09
SPEAKER_00: And I think what happens is the other person, the person who's responsible for this knows it.
9:15
SPEAKER_00: But they never but they never do anything about it.
9:18
SPEAKER_00: They know it, but they carry on in the same manner.
9:22
SPEAKER_00: And there's another characteristic here that deserves attention, and it's that of responsibility.
9:29
SPEAKER_00: Because in healthy relationships, uh responsibility tends to move in both directions.
9:35
SPEAKER_00: People apologize, repair misunderstandings, accept consequences, and try again.
9:42
SPEAKER_00: And responsibility then just flows backwards and forwards.
9:45
SPEAKER_00: But in exploitative relationships, something different develops because responsibility becomes remarkably one-sided.
9:54
SPEAKER_00: If something goes wrong, someone else is blamed.
9:57
SPEAKER_00: If promises are broken, circumstances become responsible.
10:03
SPEAKER_00: If consequences arise, another person is expected to absorb them.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: Over time, partners frequently find themselves carrying emotional, practical, financial burdens that were never theirs.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: So what begins is kindness becomes uh obligation, and obligation quietly becomes expectation.
10:25
SPEAKER_00: It reminds me of someone who said, Well, they didn't have to do it.
10:32
SPEAKER_00: They didn't have to keep pushing themselves out, they didn't have to keep providing being constantly available.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: But um if you never told them otherwise, then why would why would they stop?
10:45
SPEAKER_00: And if you just kept taking, then why would they know that they had that choice?
10:50
SPEAKER_00: This is how exploitation in relationships so often manifests.
10:56
SPEAKER_00: And I think the other thing is that one of the most striking characteristics is the ease with which trust can be used.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: And now trust is one of the healthiest qualities we possess.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: And without trust, intimacy is impossible.
11:11
SPEAKER_00: Families can't function, friendships can't deepen, and children can't develop securely.
11:16
SPEAKER_00: So trust is essential.
11:18
SPEAKER_00: But in dangerous relationships, trust is often treated very differently.
11:23
SPEAKER_00: Instead of being protected, it's exploited.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: Instead of being honored, it becomes an opportunity.
11:30
SPEAKER_00: You know, these these these are this is why we use words like taker to describe the person in the dangerous relationship, because that's what they do.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: They take, they constantly take, and they don't show gratitude, and they don't give.
11:46
SPEAKER_00: So the very qualities that make somebody a loving partner, loyalty and forgiveness, patience, generosity, and hope can become the quality through which they are repeatedly harmed and exploited.
11:59
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's something listeners need to hear because so many people arrive in therapy feeling embarrassed.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: How could I have been so foolish?
12:08
SPEAKER_00: And that's not the right question.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: The better question is what qualities in me were repeatedly used against me?
12:17
SPEAKER_00: Was it compassion, conscience, empathy, reliability?
12:21
SPEAKER_00: Now these aren't weaknesses, they're real strengths.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: And I can assure you that if you hold on to that, you will find that you will meet others who see those things for what they are and will not exploit them.
12:40
SPEAKER_00: The tragedy, though, is that these strengths can become vulnerabilities when they exist within relationships organized around exploitations rather than reciprocity.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: And whenever I speak about dangerous relationships, my thoughts inevitably return to children.
13:00
SPEAKER_00: Children don't really understand manipulation, they understand inconsistency, though, they understand broken promises, they understand emotional unpredictability, they understand fear, and they begin adapting to it.
13:15
SPEAKER_00: Some children become unusually independent, others excessively compliant, some become angry and oppositional and confrontational, others become invisible, some become caretakers.
13:29
SPEAKER_00: And this happens because the family system has developed in a way that requires them to become that way.
13:36
SPEAKER_00: And children are remarkably loyal, which I think is the tragedy.
13:40
SPEAKER_00: They will often explain the behaviors the adults demonstrate, not because they're confused, but because they're trying to preserve an attachment.
13:51
SPEAKER_00: And that often feels psychologically safer than recognizing the danger.
13:57
SPEAKER_00: And that's why safeguarding depends upon adults seeing what children can't yet articulate.
14:06
SPEAKER_00: And one of the greatest challenges for professionals is that highly exploitative individuals may present extremely well.
14:14
SPEAKER_00: They may appear engaging, reasonable, calm, helpful, and professionals are humans too.
14:20
SPEAKER_00: We all respond positively to confidence and charm.
14:24
SPEAKER_00: And that's why safeguarding must always remain grounded in evidence, patterns, and observed behaviors rather than first impressions.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: And I really think this is so important, and I talk about it a lot.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: We are not talking about single episodes, we are talking about repeated episodes which convey a pattern.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: And very often what you'll find is that the person who is exploiting in the dangerous relationship will have a history of doing that.
15:00
SPEAKER_00: They will have a history of being in relationships in which they behaved in that way.
15:07
SPEAKER_00: They won't say I exploited.
15:10
SPEAKER_00: What they'll say is I did this, I did that, and there was nothing wrong with it, and the other person left me.
15:16
SPEAKER_00: The other person just suddenly disappeared.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: Well, there's a thing.
15:27
SPEAKER_00: But of course, the blame and responsibility is always externalized, it's never their fault.
15:34
SPEAKER_00: And we see this also in safeguarding.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes these people will present as being very convincing, you know, articulate, and they will explain in the most elaborate ways and justify behaviors and outcomes.
15:52
SPEAKER_00: So the question isn't did they seem convincing?
15:57
SPEAKER_00: The question is what consistently happens to the people who depend upon them?
16:02
SPEAKER_00: What what is the outcome?
16:04
SPEAKER_00: What is it that other people experience?
16:08
SPEAKER_00: Never mind a convincing rationalization.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: And this is the heart of safeguarding.
16:15
SPEAKER_00: It's not about personality, impact, which brings us finally to recovery, is is the thing that is most important.
16:25
SPEAKER_00: Is what is the what is the impact?
16:26
SPEAKER_00: Sorry about that noise.
16:28
SPEAKER_00: Now, recovery begins very often with a surprisingly simple realization.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: You stop asking, how do I make this work?
16:38
SPEAKER_00: And you begin asking, what has this relationship been doing to me?
16:43
SPEAKER_00: Here's another good one, which sounds incredibly selfish, but I think it's incredibly healthy if asked in the right kind of way.
16:51
SPEAKER_00: And the question is this what's in it for me?
16:54
SPEAKER_00: What what am I what am I getting from this?
16:58
SPEAKER_00: And if the answer is a whole lot less than you're giving, it's time to say goodbye and walk away in whichever form is most appropriate.
17:09
SPEAKER_00: This is a profoundly different question because it moves away from rescuing the relationship and towards understanding and valuing yourself.
17:19
SPEAKER_00: And recovery isn't about becoming suspicious of everyone, nor is it about becoming emotionally closed.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: It's about learning that empathy does not require self-sacrifice.
17:30
SPEAKER_00: And this is the difference between the absorptive empath and the integrated empath position, which is worthy of another podcast at some point.
17:41
SPEAKER_00: Kindness doesn't require surrender, and forgiveness doesn't require continued exposure to harm.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: Healthy relationships ask us to bring the best of ourselves.
17:53
SPEAKER_00: Dangerous relationships gradually ask us to abandon it.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: The work of recovery is not becoming someone different, it's recovering the person that you were before your strengths were repeatedly used against you.
18:08
SPEAKER_00: Now I think in closing, I want to talk about briefly how the recovery process is made up of stages.
18:21
SPEAKER_00: And in previous podcasts, I've talked about stage one, which is the realization, you know, what actually happened, what has happened.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: And you can't do that when you're in it, because when you're in it, your vision and your your awareness and understanding become contaminated by the behavior of the other.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: Once we have that that realization or that recognition, recognition, realization, pretty much the same thing, isn't it?
18:51
SPEAKER_00: Then we can move on to the next stage, which is the reckoning.
18:55
SPEAKER_00: And the reckoning is the action that we take in response to what has happened.
19:03
SPEAKER_00: The reckoning can be an action, it can be internal, it can be external, it can be a combination of both, but the reckoning is enough.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: And that includes holding the other person responsible and accountable.
19:20
SPEAKER_00: That means confronting them sometimes.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes that's not possible.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: But actually, if you think about it, why should the other person simply get off scot-free?
19:30
SPEAKER_00: Why can't they be confronted?
19:32
SPEAKER_00: I think that's perfectly reasonable.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we don't need to do that.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we do the internal work and we have nothing to do with the person who has damaged us in this way.
19:46
SPEAKER_00: And this is good because it precedes recovery.
19:49
SPEAKER_00: And recovery, I mean, this is a good word because we are recovering something of ourselves.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: We are reconnecting with something in ourselves that was there before we were so badly treated.
20:05
SPEAKER_00: In the next episode, we'll explore another form of dangerous relationship, but I hope you will carry one thought away with you.
20:14
SPEAKER_00: And that is your capacity to trust and to care and to hope and to love and to understand that that was never the problem.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: The problem was that those qualities were placed in the hands of somebody who was just simply unable to value them, and that is all about them.
20:35
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening.