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Becoming a Strong Communicator · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign.
• 0:08
  Speaker B: Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gaiman's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I am your host, Matt Lansdell, and joining me today are Michael Diorio and Reno Johnston. My partner's in crime. All right, today we're talking about becoming a strong communicator. And we're going to be unpacking questions like what does being a strong communicator mean to you personally? And how do you measure your growth in this area? What are some barriers that get in the way of you being a strong communicator? And how do you navigate those moments of self doubt when speaking up or sharing something vulnerable? So what we want you to get out of today's episode essentially is inspiration. Inspiration of how important communication is. And we want you to take away that being a strong communicator is a very, very important piece of maintaining healthy relationships, accelerating your career, doing well in school versus, like, it really comes into play for, for everything. And we're going to unpack what it takes to become a strong communicator and then some barriers that you might notice in yourself. If you're new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. And if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe and leave us a review which helps us get into the ears of the people who need us. So, as I said, it is extremely important. I can't even emphasize it enough how important it is to be a strong communicator when it comes to maintaining healthy relationships. So this could be relationships with family, it could be relationships with friends, co workers, but most importantly for romantic relationships, we need to be strong with our communication if we want to get our needs met. And communication really is the vehicle that we use to discover one another. And who doesn't want to be discovered, right? Some of us might have fears around being discovered, but I think when it gets down to it, I think all of us want to be discovered. We want people to take an interest in us. We want people to listen to us. So we want to be able to offer that same gift back to people by having strong listening and strong expressing skills. That's really what it comes down to most people. When you think of communication, you think of speaking, right? I'm articulate, I can speak, you know, I can communicate. But really such an important piece of communication is listening. So I want to unpack that further in today's episode. But there's also different ways of expressing and communicating. You have, you know, you have one way communication which could be like writing somebody a letter or sending somebody a text, these sorts of things where there's not like a. An impulsive communication back, right? Which would be more two way. So two way communication would be when we're interacting with each other, right? I say something, you say something. It's like a ping pong game. And then there's other ways of expressing that most people don't realize. But body language is a big piece of this. So how we show up, whether we're making eye contact or not, if we have our arms crossed while we're in a conversation with somebody, our body language could be turning away from people and really sending strong messages. We could send messages of disapproval through our body. We can send messages of attraction. I'm attracted to you through our body, right? Might play with our hair or fix our pants and we want to look good. So we're always communicating. And they say like, you know, anywhere from 80 to 90% of communication comes from our body. We're really speaking volumes with our body. So hence it's important to be connected to your body if you want to be a strong communicator. And then lastly, the one that's really important is energy. So we are, we're all energetic creatures. Emotions are energy, thoughts are energy, Everything is energy on this planet. So when we are communicating, we're also communicating energetically. We're sending energetic messages, we're feeling people's energy. Some of us might be more sensitive to this than others, but we all have this ability to be able to communicate energetically. And I wanted to list some consequences of not having strong communication skills because I think it's really important. And you might notice some of these in your own life, because I definitely noticed some in my life too, because I'm not perfect at communicating. So the first one is unmet needs. When we are not good communicators, we will have unmet needs. We will not be able to communicate what we want and what we need to people clearly and concisely. So that might lead to us having, you know, resentment or dissatisfaction, disappointment, these sorts of things in our lives. Poor boundaries is a big one because we need strong communication skills in order to be able to set strong boundaries. Emotional invalidation. It's really when we're emotionally validating, it's a ping pong, right? I emotionally validate you, you emotionally validate me. If we're not good at emotionally validating somebody, we're not going to probably get that back. Right. So it becomes a big thing. And that's a huge one for a lot of people. You know, being a counselor and doing what I do, I get to work with people. And a lot of people's trauma comes from emotional invalidation. And we want to really be able to have that as a strong skill set. More relationship conflicts and misunderstandings, it's inevitable. If you're not strong at communicating or listening, you're going to. It's going to lead to misunderstandings and conflict in relationships, limitations in career advancement. Right. If you're in an interview and you have really strong communication skills and you're able to articulate yourself well, you're likely going to get the job, right? Having a lack of influence and persuasion. Right. We persuade people into meeting our needs, into doing things for us, into, you know, all sorts of things with our communication skills. So again, that ties into unmet needs. And because communication is so linked to confidence, we could have a lack of confidence if we're not strongly communicating. Having a voice, right? Communication is about taking up space, having a voice and being dignified. And that really is a lot of what it takes to become a confident person. You could have increase of stress and anxiety, again, usually because of unmet needs and a lack of trust in your relationships. I think this is a big one because when. When we're strongly communicating, we're communicating fears, insecurities, desires, these sorts of things. It's. We're able to be more vulnerable and we're able to develop more meaningful relationships that will foster more trust and reliability. So. And I just wanted to give a shout out to one of my programs because this is this all the stuff that I teach in this program, Strong communication in my Authentic Relating and Empowerment program. So if you're somebody that you know, you notice some of those things, some of those consequences of not being a strong communicator. I'll link it in the show notes and you can check out the program. It's called Authentic Relating and Empowerment. I have a whole series of these programs for highly sensitives, gay men and people wanting to develop more secure attachment in their attachment style. So that program lends itself well to today's conversation. All right, I want to hear from you guys. So what does being a strong communicator mean to you personally? And how do you measure your growth in that area? We'll start with Michael today.
• 6:58
  Speaker A: Yay. Hi, everyone. Matt, thank you so much for the intro. I loved it. I was even as you were saying, that got me thinking about what I want to say today. Yeah, great stuff. Communication is everything, really. Right. You've said that so well. Okay, so what does being a strong communicator mean to me personally? What I value. And I love that you talked about this in the beginning. For me, I mean, obviously communicator has the two parts, the expressing and then the listening piece. So for me, the speaking clarity and conciseness, I'm sure there's no surprise to both of you. It's very important to me. Someone who's very clear, direct and concise, but always respectful is for me like the best kind of communicator. I respond very, very well to that. I want it to be easy to understand and to the point. Right. That's just for me, what I consider a strong communication style. I mean, even as I think of like in a business sense, things like marketing. Marketing is also communication, right? Sales is communication. So whatever hat you're wearing, personal, professional, entrepreneurial, familial, communication is key. But either way, across the board, those are the two for speaking. When it comes to listening, what I consider a strong communicator would be not interrupting, which is probably my biggest pet peeve. And also, you know, under the same umbrella is someone who listens to listen, not to respond. So like, you know, this happens to me sometimes if I'm in the heat of a moment with like an argument or something, I'm already ready to like, know what I'm going to say next. And by doing that, I'm not listening to the other person. I'm not actually hearing what they have to say. And then the other piece for listening would be like learning how to manage your emotions, like regulating yourself in these spaces so that you can again listen and respond appropriately. So those are probably the main things. And how I would measure growth is kind of what you had said, Matt. You know, when there are fewer misunderstandings, that's how I know I'm on the right track when my relationships are thriving. You know, keep in mind, guys, that conflict is inevitable, but it doesn't have to go off the rails. And that's something that I would measure like, okay, how do we handle conflict? How do I handle conflict? Is one little thing turning into a huge blow up. And next thing you know, are yelling and shouting and screaming and hurling insults at each other. Or, or do we take that conflict and say, okay, cool, we're having a moment here, let's just take a beat and figure this out together calmly, or take a moment, you know, away from each other, then come back and figure it out calmly. So those would be how I would measure it briefly. And another one I want to add, which came up for me when Matt was speaking, is adapting adaptability and adapting your communication style to each scenario and each individual. You know, as we were saying, communication really is universal, and it's a skill that will benefit you if you learn it. It'll benefit every single area of your life. And so a relationships. I was initially going to say relationships have taught me the most about this, and they have. But I have to say the communication is a skill that I honed most Sharply in my 13 years in the corporate world, where anyone who's worked in that kind of environment knows communication is king. You know, you have to wear multiple hats every day. You have to communicate. At least in my position, I was a leader. I had to communicate as a leader. I had to put that communication hat on. So very different skill, right? Building rapport and trust with my employees, being likable, but also having authority, mediating, coaching. You know, coach Michael was born in the boardroom, as I say. So training and coaching my employees, motivating them, keeping them engaged, that's one style of communication. And then I could go into a meeting with, like, my boss or a bunch of C suite folks, and then I got to put on another communication hat, and that's okay. This is where the persuasion and influencing comes in. You know, how to talk to decision makers, how to stay calm when they're like, having a. You know, sometimes our bosses can be a little bit much, and you have to just stay calm because you could take that very personally. And if you don't have a thick skin, that could really impact you, at least where I worked. And then also having that executive presence. Right. So that's a totally different skill set. And then finally, you know, across the organization, it's just in general, your colleagues, whoever you're working with, is how to collaborate and how to communicate with people who maybe you have to. And you would if you didn't have to, you wouldn't even talk to this person. But you have to get this done. Like, this is imperative. So learning how to communicate and collaborate, learning how to get it done, even with tough personalities with you guys got different agendas. The place I worked at was very political. So it was really important to learn diplomacy. So I think I learned that skill there. Yeah. In general, I would say that adaptability, maybe now is my number one answer, if I can change it. But that is really important to know what hat to wear and when to get the most out of that conversation.
• 11:38
  Speaker B: Yeah. What I'm hearing is like, know your audience.
• 11:41
  Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And be able to cater to it because, like, I could be a very strong communicator at home with my partner and then go to work and be a terrible communicator because that confidence might not be there. Or vice versa. I could be very good in the boardroom and then not have the emotional empathy and listening skills to like, really sit and be with someone's, you know, deepest, darkest emotion. So it's really about learning how to adapt and learn how to be good at all of it.
• 12:04
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. It's like discernment, intentionality, slowing down. Where I kind of felt you when you shared about your pet peeve about people interrupting. Because that's my biggest pet peeve too. It's the most annoying thing because you know if somebody's interrupting you that they're not listening, that they've been like formulating what they want to say while you're talking. So they're not listening and then they want to interrupt you. Oh, my God, it's just so triggering for me. So, like, how do you deal with that when somebody does that?
• 12:30
  Speaker A: Well, if it's someone, like in a personal situation, I'll just say, don't interrupt me or I'm not done speaking. Like, I'm not done yet. You know, very, again, very concise and direct as I do. If it's a situation where it was like at work, it depends on who it is. If it's my boss, I just. Okay. And then I'll get back to it later. But yeah, if it's in a personal situation, I'll just kindly respectfully remind them I'm not done speaking.
• 12:53
  Speaker B: Yeah. I think that's why I love authentic relating so much because there's an element of slowing down. Everything's slowed down in authentic relating. So you would say, I'm complete at the end of your share and then the person knows you're complete and then they can share. But in day to day life, people's nervous systems are so fast paced because we live in an impulsive culture. And so people are constantly interrupting and not listening. And they're in their own. Their motors are all running so fast. So I think just even slowing down, it sounds like something that could make you a stronger communicator.
• 13:23
  Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. And I, you know, shout out to anyone who's attended our sharing circles, that's what we, we tell them to do, is like, when you're done speaking, just say, I'm Complete. And that's my share so that we know to move on. Because I always tell them, I don't want to interrupt you, so don't make me interrupt you. Just tell me when you're done so we can move on. Yeah.
• 13:38
  Speaker B: Yeah. So important. Thanks, Michael. Appreciate your. Your shares.
• 13:42
  Speaker C: Yeah, it was good. The adaptability piece, too. I never thought of that immediately. And it's. Yeah, I would say, like, that's a major strength, and I think one that I embody, but maybe because I'm so intuitive when it comes to these things, I didn't realize it till you said it, so I'm glad that you did. And then Matt used this word discover. It's funny because I feel like I'm usually more sort of feely and flowy when it comes to our topics, but for some reason, like, I came with, like, receipts, so it's interesting to notice. I'm, like, in this headier space. But when you said discovery was like, oh, I was thinking of communication from the angle of understanding. And to hear discovery feels a bit lighter, a bit more flowy, and also a bit more fun. It almost feels like the pressure's off when the word discovery comes into play. Yeah, understanding feels a bit more, like, heady, but still necessary. So I wrote for being a strong communicator. I wrote Do I understand me? Do they understand me? And do we understand each other? I think those three things are really important, and I think it's easy to miss the Do I understand me? Piece. Right. I noticed that when it comes to communication, we'll go in wanting to be understood by the other. And I'll probably talk a little bit more about this later in our other questions. But I think understanding yourself first, connecting to and validating yourself first is really, really important. Which is a great segue into my. The next one, which is am I or are we connected or connecting? So, like, am I connected? That is, to myself, to the moment, to what is happening before me? Are we connected? Are we connecting? I think that that makes for strong communication. And the more connection there is, the more understanding there is. I think those can also be measures of growth when it comes to communication. So if you were to observe your communication over time, do you feel increasingly understood or misunderstood? Do you feel increasingly connected or disconnected? Right. I would say pay attention to that and explore what's creating the lack of understanding or the lack of connection. And you could ask the person you're communicating with as well. You know, I notice there's a lack of understanding here. There's A lack of communication or, sorry, connection here. Do you have any feedback as to what might be creating that? Right. Knowing what you want to say and what you want to get out of the communication that you're engaged in I think is also really important. Right. So like, what is it that I want to say? What is it that I want to communicate? And also what do I want to get out of this? Because sometimes we can get so caught up in the heat of the moment that it's easy to lose sight of why this were there in the first place and what the end game is. Right. And so I think being clear about that when we're coming into communication makes it so that like, if we find ourselves kind of off course, so like dysregulated or caught up in the weeds or the heat of the moment, it's easy to come back. Practicing, listening and repeating what you heard and asking for feedback are also some excellent ways to embody strong communication or to develop strong communication. And I noticed, for example, when Michael was speaking, so I'll be transparent. I'm wearing this shirt. If you're not watching and you're listening, I'm wearing this shirt that I bought at the thrift store and I have my fedora on and I'm trying this new outfit. And I noticed that it was kind of a distraction for me because I'm like super self conscious of it. So when Matt and Michael were speaking, I really had to like practice listening and focusing because I kept being pulled away from like, what was being spoken because I'm wearing this thing that I don't normally wear and I'm like very conscious of it. Right. So I really had to practice, like regulating being present and really focusing on what Michael was saying. And what's fun is zoom comes with this great feature where you can hide yourself so you don't see yourself. I haven't used it yet, so I can still see myself. But I think that's kind of the beauty of noticing when we move away from our point of focus or the other person is to recognize that, catch it, and come back. So, and then, like I said, asking for feedback, I think is really powerful as well. We don't do that enough. What was it like engaging or interacting with me? What is it like engaging and interacting with me? You know, where do I communicate strongly and where could I stand to improve? Right. I think those are powerful questions. And then I would say the last thing that I had here was, have we created the desired and intended outcome, or are we both satisfied with where we've landed in our communication. I think that the awareness of that, the curiosity around that is definitely going to create and signify strong communication. It's interesting. Again, I'm used to being so flowy when it comes to my answers, so it was really interesting coming in with these notes that I had today.
• 19:34
  Speaker B: Yeah, there's nothing wrong with trying new things. I feel like when I'm hosting, I need the notes, but when I'm not hosting and Michael's hosting, I've been trying not bringing notes in and just flowing with it. I think it's. Yeah, I think he did great.
• 19:47
  Speaker C: And you just said something cool too, right? It's like, new top the notes. Like, I'm really out of my element today, and I was trying to figure out why I felt so weird today. I was like, I'm here, but I don't feel fully here. And it's because I'm so in my head today because I'm trying so many new things at once, but it's actually quite fun, you know, in a way. And I guess I just said something there that's really powerful, which is. Instead of hiding it, I named it. And I immediately felt lighter and more clear and more capable to communicate and to be present. So I think y'all just learned something, you know, perhaps.
• 20:26
  Speaker B: Yeah, I want to just honor that, and I want to honor the. The edginess of communication, because when you are practicing strong communication, it's edgy because you don't know there's so much unknowns in communication. You don't know how the other person's going to receive you. When we are learning new skills with communication, we're trying new things, we're going to fall flat on our face. Right. It's just. It's inevitable. Like, I teach communication, I have for the last 10 years, and I even flub in front of people, and I do these things. Active listening is very challenging. So these. We're not just talking about light and fluffy skills today. We're talking about, like, this is big stuff. The reason why relationships are so hard for most people is because communication is hard. So I want to honor that. And that shirt looks like you. It was meant for you.
• 21:12
  Speaker C: Thank you.
• 21:13
  Speaker B: That you're, like, wondering, like, oh, like. But I, like, looked at it. I was like, oh, my God, that's such a Reno shirt.
• 21:18
  Speaker C: Thank you. I appreciate that.
• 21:21
  Speaker B: Do you have a pet peeve, Reno?
• 21:23
  Speaker C: Yeah, I think my only pet peeve. And I really, like, I even notice in my heart right now, there's just Like, a lot of compassion and empathy and tenderness. When I say this, when I feel like somebody is pretending or performing.
• 21:39
  Speaker B: Right.
• 21:40
  Speaker C: Like, yeah, I'll just stick to what I said first. When they're pretending or performing, it's like, that is kind of a turn off for me, I think, because it's like I'm connecting with your performance. You're communicating from your performance. I'm not connecting with you. Right. And I guess I, like, I really want to feel people, you know, when I'm connecting with you, when I'm engaging with you. So I love when people are willing to just sort of notice it and drop it or just like, name it, you know, I notice I'm being kind of performative right now because, like, I don't know, I'm intimidated or something, you know? Like, that's sweet. Like, if someone said that, I would really appreciate it. Just like, name it and then come back. You know, Name it and then, like, come back. I think I would say that's my main pet peeve. If someone interrupts me, I'm not going to say it doesn't bother me, but maybe not as much as that does. Yeah.
• 22:35
  Speaker B: Yeah. Thanks for sharing.
• 22:37
  Speaker C: Yeah, thank you. What about you, Matt?
• 22:39
  Speaker B: So this I just want to share kind of what inspired to choose this topic. So, you know, obviously, being a counselor, being trained in this, like, you literally learn interview, you learn motivational interviewing, you learn all these skills, you learn communication in counseling school. But this is a big unmet need for me, especially in dating. I find that a lot of people aren't very strong communicators. They're not good at asking questions. They're not good at holding space. This has just been my experience. So I see a huge need for this information to get out there and for people to have more conversations about how they can become a stronger communicator, to take courses and do these different types of things. So I just wanted to bring voice to that because I just think it's so. It's so important, and there's so many people walking around this world with unmet needs because people have poor communication. And if we can learn how to start to meet each other's relational needs, it's such a game changer. I see relationships. I do relationship work with people, and I see couples really come together and their whole relationship changes because they learn simple things like active listening skills. Like, it's. It's truly amazing. So I really want to sell this work because it's. It's so important. You guys said a lot of the things. But there's a few things that I think are really important. This whole notion, like on my hinge profile, I want to be discovered. I want somebody who wants to discover me. Because I feel like I'm quite a complex person. I have a rich inner world. I want somebody who's very curious, because I'm very curious. So I want somebody that can match my level of curiosity. So what makes somebody a strong communicator, in my opinion, is the curiosity. Curiosity is an act of humility, right? It's stepping into the student. And I want to learn about you, right? So you teach me who you are and I can discover you, right? That's one piece of it. So that's kind of the listener. The listener is the humility, and then the. The teacher is the dignity, right? And we're always dancing between these two things, right? We're listening and we're expressing. Dignity is the teacher. It's when we're standing in our truth and we're taking up space, our throat chakras open, and we're wanting to bring ourselves forward. We're wanting to be discovered, right? So we're sharing ourselves. And I think that that's what inspires me about life. Truly, that's like the biggest inspiration for me about life. Like, I love connecting and I love that harmony that's created when. When we're dancing between sharing the roles of dignity and humility. So I think that's just really important. Clarity, you know, Say what you mean and mean what you say. I love straight shooters. I love people who are just like, this is it. This is how I'm feeling. And it's such a blessing when people offer that gift to me, because I don't like trying to figure people out. I just love people who are like, yeah, here, here. This is what I'm thinking and feeling. So they're. They're just clear, right? Clear Communication is. Is really important. And then something that's really. There's a consideration that's required in. In communication, which is like being mindful of the impact that we have on people and communicating from a place of tactics. It's important, right? Sometimes people are like, oh, well, I was just being authentic, right? I'm just, you know, saying whatever. But there's a way that we can be authentic and still deliver the message with intentionality, being considerate of how that's going to land in the other person, right? So I think to what Michael said, knowing our audience, it's very important. Like, am I talking to somebody that has some unresolved trauma. And maybe I need to have a tone of voice that feels a bit more gentle with this person. Right? Like, so there. It's always about looking at how our communication style can accommodate the people we're communicating to. I think is. Is another gift that we can give people. And then there's an element, obviously, for me, I love dancing in the arena of. Of authenticity and vulnerability and deeper intimacy and things. So I think when I'm expressing myself, I'm always thinking about ways that I can be. That I can reveal and. And be straight with people and how I can be vulnerable, right. In a way that respects my nervous system that I'm not over sharing, but I'm also, like, honoring that. I want to. I want people to see me, like, all of me. Like my shortcomings, my insecurities, my brilliance, like, all the parts of me I think it's important to share. And then, yeah, the active listening and the emotional validation, you know, active listening is the most underrated skill I've learned in my whole life. It comes from authentic relating. So it's. It's built on assume nothing, right? We're trying not to assume anything about the other person. We're landing in curiosity, and then we listen, but we don't. Like Michael said, we don't listen to respond. We listen to hear. So we're not trying to rush. We're not trying to have something to say, right? As they're done talking, we can take a breath when they're done. Allows us to, like, kind of really land into what they shared. Then we offer a reflection, right? Most people jump from listening to sharing impact, which is the fourth step of active listening. So they miss the reflection. So what we're doing then is we're not letting the person know that we've heard them. And especially if there's an emotion in what they've shared. Reflecting is when we can emotionally validate, because it can. We can say, hey, you know, I'm hearing that, you know, you're. You're feeling pretty angry or you're feeling sad about this thing. Like, I completely can understand. I've been there too. Then we can go into sharing impact. You know what I heard you say, this is how it impacted me. I've been there too, and I've had this experience. And we can create deeper intimacy with these people. So it's, you know, they're interwoven, right? And when we can make somebody feel emotionally seen and heard, man, it's. It's such a game changer. For relationships. Because a lot of us, like I said, are walking around with that as an unmet need and usually unmet needs in childhood of not feeling seen, no one understood, heard in the emotionality of who we are. Because our culture really tries to suppress that. So when we can bring that back online, it really does accelerate and improve communication in a big way.
• 28:24
  Speaker C: So you asked us our pet peeves and I'm curious about what yours is. And then secondly, I guess because you've spent so much time in this space in the field of communication, I'm curious what is the single thing you see people struggle with the most?
• 28:38
  Speaker B: It would be my pet peeve, which is people not listening, listening to respond, not to hear. And interrupting. That's what it is. So when we're doing that, we're interrupting, we're going too fast for the conversation. So that's a huge one, I think. Yeah. And then also another one of mine is just people who talk shit, right? Like they don't follow up their communication or their things, what they're saying from their mouth with their actions. Right. So like they're not thoughtful. Right. Thoughtfulness is like, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do it. There's a follow through. So empty communication maybe would be a pet peeve of mine. Just because I'm a very loyal person. If I say I'm going to do something, like it'll be done, like on the exact moment I said it would be done. I just have really strong follow through. So I think it's an important thing for me. I want the audience to just take a moment and think about this question because I think it's really important. We all are going to define it differently. What does it mean to be a strong communicator, as in you delivering strong communication. But what does it mean to you to receive strong communication from somebody? What do you need to feel like you're being seen and heard and understood? Just take a moment and think about that. It's such a, such an important question to reflect on. And if you want to reflect on it further, you know what's coming. If you've been a listener. We have our sharing circles and our connection circles. Sharing circles. Again, it's one way communication. It's coming at you, somebody's talking to you, you're not responding. And then our connection circles are small pods where it's two way communication. Somebody's sharing and then you can respond. And it's more of a Ping pong match. Right. So we're offering these through the Gay Men's Brotherhood. If you're interested, you can go to gaymansbrotherhood.com check it out there under our events tab. All right, Michael, what are some barriers that get in the way of you being a strong communicator?
• 30:24
  Speaker A: Love all these questions that make us turn the mirror towards ourselves. Because I know my first instinct was going to be other people. Y'all are making it really hard for me to be a strong communicator. But that's not how we're going to do it. That's not how we do these podcasts. And I encourage you guys out there not to answer it in that way either. Look within you. Okay. So I think because I'm naturally quiet and introverted, listening has always been a little bit easier for me just because that's the role I was in my family. Youngest, quiet, little shy gay boy. I just learned how to observe and listen because I was not going to speak up. So that part has been easy for me. Where I've learned and where I've grown is definitely more in the speaking, taking up space, advocating for myself. That has been where I've grown a lot now. I think I'm quite strong in that now these days. I think what the barriers that get in the way happen in my personal relationships. Matt, you said this at the beginning, and I had to, like, make a note of it because this is one of them is my body language when I'm in my coach hat, when I'm in my podcast hat, when I'm in my whatever, any other hat. I'm very good at having my poker face. You can't tell what I'm thinking, but I'm thinking. But then with my partner's friends, family, you can see exactly what I'm thinking all over my face and all over my body language. I'm Italian. It's all out there. Okay. I've learned how to, like, put on my poker face when I need to. But yeah, and what people have told me was that, like, I don't need to say anything because I'm saying it all on my face. So that has been an area that I've really tried to work on, and I think I'm getting a lot better at it now. And then the other one that gets in my way is a defensiveness, especially in conflict situations is I will jump into defense mode very quickly. And, you know, I do a lot of work with couples as well, and that's like the biggest faux Pas, like, that's just a one way ticket to like disaster zone. Yet, you know, in those moments, it's really easy for me to jump into that defensiveness. So what has been, you know, what has been helpful for me is really learning that self regulation. Matt, as you had said, listening and just what kind of helps me, I don't know if this is the right word, but like dissociating from the situation, but like just observing and being like, okay, here's where he's at. Thinking about a partner, he's angry, he's saying words, he's in his feels. I don't need to like fall into that whirlpool of emotion. I could just stand back and listen and watch. And I have thoughts and feelings about it, but those thoughts and feelings I can process and then share. Right? And that's kind of been what I've learned a lot most recently. But defensiveness does, is the automatic, like, I just want to jump in and say, no, you are wrong. And let me tell you all the ways you're wrong. Let me tell you always I'm right. And let me tell you guys, that doesn't work. And I'd love to know if anyone out there has practiced that and that works for you in your relationship, please let me know because it does not work for me. What helps is when I take all that defensiveness away. It's not about being right and wrong. It's just about listening and understanding. That's when those, you know, outcomes that you want come through. And I have to say, I have to give credit to Star for this because he and I both did a lot of work on communication together, and we talked about that on the podcast. So this is nothing new here, but we both worked a lot on communication because our styles were like oil and water. And we both improved significantly to the point that I will say that we've been broken up now for over a year and we're like besties. And I think that speaks to the fact that we have done that work in communication. So, you know, I can't imagine us not being in this place without having learned how to talk to each other and how to understand each other, because as I said, he and I are very, very different. And I really had to learn, you know, to slow down, to not react, to not be defensive. And so, yeah, you know, the benefit, the proof is in the pudding. It shows that we can, we can stay friends and we have state friends.
• 34:20
  Speaker B: I love that. Yeah, relationships are so challenging and they'll, they'll Test that. And relationships, what ends up happening, I see for a lot of people is the other person starts to learn where to throw the salt in the wound. Right?
• 34:33
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 34:34
  Speaker B: And when you're in defensiveness, we tend to throw salt in people's wounds whether we do it intentionally or not.
• 34:40
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 34:40
  Speaker B: But I think people that do avoid that and they don't get the growth is where they choose partners who are fawning people pleasing partners that you can become defensive with and they'll just collapse. Right. So then you don't get the growth. So it's important to choose a partner who can. Right. Challenge you in loving way. But you don't want to be with somebody that's not going to let you grow. Right.
• 34:59
  Speaker A: So, yeah, relationships are the best sandbox for these kinds of things because they tend to bring up the most personal stuff, you know what I mean? Like your deepest fears, your rejection, your abandonment wounds and your deepest insecurities. Things that are about intimacy and sex and relational stuff like relationships will do that. So anyone who's in a relationship, I want you to like, you know, use that. You have this beautiful playground with which to explore how to improve your communication and your partner will thank you for it.
• 35:28
  Speaker B: Yeah, beautiful.
• 35:30
  Speaker C: Yeah. I'll say to people especially this happened recently, like, I'll ask people, I can tell, or it seems like you're angry. Don't withhold that. Like, let that be there and feel free to express it. Don't project it. Right. But please express it. I welcome your anger. You know, what is it that you really want to say? I want to hear that from you. If you don't agree with me, tell me. You don't agree with me. Challenge me. You know, I really appreciate that in relationships because like you said, it's. Yeah, for me it's like where we learn and, you know, where our truths collide and transformation happens. You know, so barriers, trauma, overthinking judgments, self consciousness, stress, anxiety, distractions, dysregulation, a lack of knowledge and information, the absence of connection. These are all barriers that get in the way of me being a strong communicator. And I would say they're all things I'm actively aware of and maybe releasing, maybe reconciling. I would say even. It's funny as we're having this conversation about communication. They're just. It's been so fun watching myself listening to each of you and just noticing these moments where I'm pulled away by thinking, by thought, by sensation or something like that. It could be a sound in the background. It could be a feeling that comes up inside. It could be something I'm observing on your screen. It could be something you said that triggered something in me. A thought, a judgment, memory feeling. Right. So it's so fascinating to recognize that we're swimming in some really, like, I say that again with like this amusement and this tenderness simultaneously, because we're swimming in some. Some really interesting waters when it comes to communication. Like, look at everything I listed. Like, that's what I'm swimming in.
• 37:48
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 37:49
  Speaker C: While I'm communicating. That's what we're potentially swimming in. While we're communicating. It's a lot. You know, it's a lot. And I think that's where. And you know, we'll probably get into this more when we address the next question, but I think that's where. Yeah, just holding yourself lightly, holding it lightly, like slowing down, you know, and just bringing as much compassion and empathy and patience and slowness to your communication as you can can be really important, you know, like taking pause when necessary. It's not. There's no rush, you know, there's no rush. And yeah, like, you're bound to get it wrong, so to speak. And I wouldn't even say wrong. It's just, you know, it's kind of like tuning an instrument in a way. And let's say, like, you're the instrument and life is the. The player. Right. And so life is kind of tuning you via these experiences that you're having. Right. And through a process of discovery. I love that you use that word earlier, Matt. It's just so good. Yeah, your instrument is being tuned by your experiences. So they're not bad. It's like, oh, if something strikes a, like an off key note, let's say that's not a bad thing. You know, it's like, oh, okay, we're off key there. Got it. Tune. Right.
• 39:20
  Speaker B: It really humanizes, in my opinion, like even just what you just shared there, like, really, it makes me feel like I have space to not have to be perfect. Because communication is not about getting it perfect. It's about just trying it and putting yourself out there.
• 39:35
  Speaker C: And yeah, harmonization is inevitable. You know, just keep showing up, you know, keep engaging. Continue to allow yourself to be played like the instrument you are and. And embrace experience and the messy bits. Yeah, definitely. What about you, Matt? Barriers.
• 39:55
  Speaker B: Fear. It's always fear. It always comes back to fear. Fear of visibility, fear of rejection, fear of judgment, fear of failure. Oh, dear, That's a big one. Especially in. In large settings. Right. Because I tend to, I do public speaking, I'm facilitating always. It's like, oh my God, if I mess up in front of people, that's like a big fear of mine. So what that does is it leads to too much self monitoring. Right. And then what does self monitoring do? Well, it pulls me out of flow and then I'm not fully present. And I think that's the biggest barrier. You want to become a good strong communicator, become present. That pulls you out of all the shit that's going to get you out of flow. So yeah, I wrote down attention span, like sitting and listening. You know, if I go to like a, let's say a training or something and it's like a three, four hour training, like oh, you got an hour from me, that's about it. And then my mind is like woo, like monkey mind all over the place. But there's things you can do to work with that, like attention. Attention is like a muscle and it's something we have control over. But most human beings don't work that muscle to develop control over it. So something called one pointed concentration is an amazing tool that you can use to redirect. It's like going to the gym and working the muscle of attention. Your mind wanders, you bring it back, Your mind wanders, you bring it back. You just keep doing that and it develops this, this muscle of attention. And then you start noticing when I'm laying in bed at night, oh, my mind's not wandering off and I'm able to fall asleep quicker or when I'm talking to somebody, my mind's not conjuring up a bunch of stories. I'm able to be present with them. So it does again, this is a big a thing that's an indirect contributor to making somebody a strong communicator. So just Google one pointed concentration people and you'll find different ways of doing it. I've developed my own method that works for me. But you can find many different ways of doing it. It's, it's an old, I think Buddhist tradition. It's been around for a long, long time. Yeah, listening to respond, not to hear. That's just the biggest barrier in my opinion when it comes to listening. And then for me personally, like I'm an, I'm, I default to listening. I do counseling for a living. I am an empath. I'm highly sensitive. All these things people usually come to me, even strangers will gravitate to me when I'm out, out and it's just interesting. So People always want to talk and share themselves with me. So that's a barrier for me in a sense because I can easily just collapse and be like, okay, I'll listen again, right? And it's like, no, Matt, you also need to share yourself and you need to bring yourself forward too. So that's an important piece. And then to get into the more deeper roots, I carry a really deep seated belief, and I have since childhood, that people won't understand me. So what's the point? Like, I feel like people always respond to me as if I'm like complex or they're. They kind of like go like that with me. Like they're not quite. You know what I mean? I always kind of felt like I'm different or something. So I carry that belief and maybe that comes from family of origin or whatever, but so I kind of sometimes will just get into this mentality of what's the point? And that probably contributes to my listenership. I just listen all the time because I'm like, I don't want to share myself because people don't really get me anyway. So when I do meet somebody who really understands me, I feel like I really nourish that relationship because again, my experience is that people don't tend to be good at listening maybe or like a lot of people prefer to talk than listen, I find. But again, that's my experience. There's probably a lot of bias in my experience because of what I do for a living and, and things like that. And then ego and unresolved trauma. I put them together in the same category because from my perspective, the ego's job is to protect our unresolved trauma. Don't let people see it, hide it away. That's why we become defensive instead of vulnerable in a situation. Right? Vulnerability would mean I have to reveal my trauma, I've got to bring it forward. Whereas defensiveness is like, I ain't. I'm not showing these insecurities to you. I'm going to defend, I'm going to fight back. So I'm going to put it back on you. I'll project it back onto you. So ego is a big factor in that. And that happens in my romantic relationships when I'm feeling really vulnerable and I don't want to share the deeper parts of me that feel really hurt or exiled. I will go into defensiveness. Just kind of like what Michael had shared. Which again, it leaves no room for growth, right? We're not taking responsibility, we're not growing. So I think it's really Important to look at that. All right, let's take a breath. Lots of good stuff swirling around.
• 44:16
  Speaker C: Yeah, it's funny, you don't have to respond to this. I just wanted to say in that moment where you said, let's take a breath that my curiosity got the best of me and I was like so curious about what you were experiencing in that moment. And I guess I just want to share that because that's another element of communication. You know, it's like when you're really paying attention to someone, there's subtleties that you pick up on and sometimes it's fun to explore those, you know, to meet them with curiosity. Like what was happening for you there just now, you know?
• 44:49
  Speaker B: Yeah. It's interesting because my nervous system processes very quickly, so I'm always having to slow myself down. I'm always having to breathe. Like I'm like thinking usually 10 steps ahead of most people. Like my brain is just one of those brains. It's always going. So I have to very intentionally be like, oh, okay. Like I'm sharing quickly, I'm talking quickly. Like, let's just slow it down a bit. It happens in my facilitation all the time. I notice, like when I'm teaching or things, I'm like, okay, breathe, slow it down. People can get overwhelmed by too much information coming at once. Right. So that was my, my intention behind the breath.
• 45:24
  Speaker C: Thanks for sharing.
• 45:25
  Speaker B: If you are watching on YouTube, please answer in the comments. What are some of the barriers that you see to being a strong communicator? Whether that's barriers that you see in other people or barriers that you see in yourself. Like Michael said, it's going to pack more of a punch when you look within because we can only control ourselves. If you're looking to accelerate your communication and you're wanting to learn this stuff, we have our coaching collection. We have 45 plus premium personal development coaching videos and I would say a quarter of those, if not a third of those are in the relationship pathway which are about all about communication, boundaries, these sorts of things. So that would be a great resource. And then within that same coaching collection we have the healing your shame course, which is a six week course that we take you on a journey of healing shame and understanding your shame, developing shame resilience. And we also have our building better relationships course in there which is a six week course as well, where we talk about conflict transformation, we talk about having a better relationship with yourself, communication styles, attachment styles, all sorts of things. So lots of good stuff in that coaching Collection if you're wanting to accelerate your communication. All right, last question. How do you navigate those moments of self doubt when speaking up or sharing something vulnerable? Michael?
• 46:39
  Speaker A: Well, there's a lot of ways I could answer this. If it's something where I know I want to share something vulnerable, like if it's a conversation that I know is going to be a vulnerable one, then I can prepare for it. And there's a few ways I could do that. So what I like to do is just again, similar to you, Matt, my mind goes a mile a minute, as I'm sure you guys can understand. And if I don't prepare myself, it's just going to go all over the place. It's not going to be clear, it's not going to be concise. It's just, it's going to be a hot mess. I've learned this the hard way. So what helps me, and I'm very heady, what helps me is to like get my shit together in my own brain first before I even have this conversation. So what that looks like for me, clarifying my intention. If I'm going to share something vulnerable, what is it I want to get out of this conversation? Am I just sharing to unburden myself of something that I really want to say, aiming to deepen connection? Am I creating a boundary? Am I asking for something like what exactly? Again, one word. Do I want to get out of this conversation?
• 47:38
  Speaker B: Why.
• 47:39
  Speaker A: What's your why? I always go back to that as my step. One, two, now that I know my why, what's the best environment in which to have this conversation? Okay, that is really important to me. I am very picky about where. Right. We talked about this in the dating episodes where if we're going to go on a date, it needs to be quiet. I don't want to yell, I don't want to shout. I don't want to not hear you. I don't want to be like, what? What did you say? Can you say that again? Like it needs to be quiet. Silent. And like it was up to me. Like you would talk and then we'd pause and then I would talk. Like I would be. That's the ideal communication style for me. I know that's not always possible, but anyway, so then figuring out, okay, here's the conversation I want to have, here's the why. What's the best environment for this to happen? So the example that came to mind most recently was the one I've used many times already when I told that that guy that I Was seeing that I want to be more than friends. And I'm okay, I'm going to. I'm going to share this with him. The best place to do this is not at dinner, not walking down the street. I want it to be at my house, where I'm safe, where I'm comfortable, where my nervous system is nice and soothed and bring it up then and there and not when we were drinking. That's another thing. I don't like having these conversations when I've been drinking. In my 20s, I used to only speak the truth when I drank. And the truth mixed with alcohol is never a good thing for me. So anyway, I didn't want us to be any kind of. Under any kind of influence. So that's two then is like, this is really important for me. Anyone who has an active mind and tends to go into the weeds, Pick three things you're going to say. Max. Max, you have three sentences. Max, what are you going to say? One sentence each. Okay. And so once I kind of wrote. I write this down. You guys know I'm a big writer. I write it down. Okay? Here's what I really need him to hear. Here's what I really want to say in this situation. Sentence one, sentence two, sentence three. Okay. Then I say it out loud. Now, with my coaching clients, I make them tell me, I kind of do this with my in coaching calls. And I'll go through the same process with you, and I'll say, hey, what are the three things you want to say? And immediately clients go, nope, stop. Too much. You said too much. Three sentences, Max. What do you want to say? Now, you can always add more, but again, this just clarifies things in your own mind, right? So pick the three things you want to say and then practice it. Right? If it's in a. If it's in a call with the coach or counselor or therapist, you can do it there. Talk to a friend, someone that you trust and love. Say, I need to have this. I need to do this thing. It's going to be very vulnerable. I just want to say it out loud with you first because that'll kind of help your nervous system. It'll. Like when you said it out loud the first time. I always say you don't want the first time to be with the person in the moment. If you can practice it ahead of time, do it ahead of time. It's like coming out. We talked about this in the coming out episodes as well.
• 50:18
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 50:19
  Speaker A: And then notice what's coming up for you and Then intellectually, you can kind of prepare for the response. You kind of. I like to cover the whole spectrum. The worst case response, the best case response, and then what's likely to be the most common one, which is the neutral response. And then just kind of imagine and play out in your mind. Kind of rehearse how that might go and more importantly, how you would respond in each situation. Right. So in my situation where I told him, I like you as more than a friend and I want to take it to the next level, the worst case scenario is like, oh, my God, I can't believe you. Like, just total anger and reaction, like, storms out and I never see him again. Right. I mean, it didn't happen, but just to prepare myself for what that could look like helped it become less of a fear because you give voice to it and then you realize as you think it, I'm like, that's not actually going to happen. So it helps me. So, yeah, those are some of the ways that I like to prepare. Again, this is in this scenario where I know that I want to share something vulnerable. And keep in mind, guys, I will also say this. The self doubt doesn't go away, at least not for me. It's there and I just bring it for the ride. I'm like, okay, self doubt, we're going to do this. As Reno had said, you know, it's not about getting it perfect because we can't do that, but I can at least manage it in a way where it's not going to completely take over.
• 51:30
  Speaker B: Thanks for sharing all that. You made me laugh when you said, like, it would be so nice if they talk, then you talk. And it reminded me of when we first started the podcast. And like, we. We structured this podcast very deliberately because Michael and I struggle with that. Like, we don't like this when people are talking over each other. And there's a lot of podcasts where there's multiple people and it becomes this thing when I'm listening to that. It throws my brain into a tizzy. Right. I don't. I can't handle that because we've gotten feedback that people like. Why are you guys so, like, prescriptive? Like, you have your turn to talk, you have your turn to talk, but it really, I think it highlights a really important style of communication that's like, missing in our world, which is like, give someone the space to just really reveal and have their experience. So that's what I love about this podcast. I just wanted to share that made me think of that.
• 52:17
  Speaker C: It is super fun to notice, like when, you know, thought sensation or the desire to kind of like speak shows up when someone else is speaking and to just kind of sit with that, like it's a meditative practice in a way. Right. It's like if you're sitting in meditation and you have an itch, like just to kind of notice it initially, maybe you scratch it, maybe you don't. Right. But even just the act of the art of noticing, you know, I think is really, really powerful and not reacting. So this creates a beautiful space for that. Definitely. I agree. Yeah. How do I navigate those moments of self doubt when speaking up or sharing something vulnerable? Well, I slow down, I breathe, and I connect to the moment, to myself and to the person I'm engaging with. I will communicate my needs. In some cases, I will share my concerns and my vulnerability. This is something I think I, I would say excel at, to be honest. And that came with time and practice, you know. But yeah, sharing my concerns and my vulnerabilities, I think it just like it's one less thing that I need to contend with or be distracted by when I'm communicating and connecting with you, if that's my intention. Suspending judgment and the need to be seen, heard, understood or right, and validating myself first or seeking that validation elsewhere beforehand. So I guess I was thinking about when I come into a conversation and if the need to, if there's a lot of judgment and there's a high need to be seen, heard, understood or right. I've just noticed, like that really gets in the way. It really does. And it's not to say that that's wrong. I think, like, it's okay. You want to be seen, you want to be heard, you want to be understood, you want to be right. There's nothing wrong with that. And I would say, yeah, I've just seen it be important to maybe like hold that a bit more lightly or just like set it aside. Set it aside initially. Maybe see if like in setting it aside you are not surprised. Like you may be surprised, it may happen, you know, because you risked the possibility of it not happening and just kind of put it aside. There's a real hack in that, I will say, in my experience, you know, you'd be surprised by how often if you just put that stuff aside initially, you will find, surprisingly, by the end of the conversation that you actually do end up feeling seen and heard and understood. Right. Focus on seeing, hearing, understanding and validating them first. And I guess I'm answering this question through the lens of like having an uncomfortable conversation with somebody or, or navigating a conflict. Right. Is again, if you can kind of put that aside and make space for them first. I know it's super hard. And also like, maybe there's a fear that like you won't get your turn or something like that. Ask for that voice that in the beginning, you know, I'm concerned that I might not be seen, heard or understood in this conversation. And I'm willing to voice that and put that aside in service to seeing, hearing and understanding you. And can we agree that you would perhaps make space for me after that? It's like cool, you know, and then the last thing I wrote is that I. I make self love a regular practice. And it's interesting because you might think, well, what does that have to do with speaking up and sharing something vulnerable? Or what does that have to do with communication? Well, if you're in the practice of journaling and reflecting, spending time in nature, embodiment and experience, expression practices, connection with trusted friends and elders, or just like enjoyment, you know, just simple enjoyment, what do you think that that's going to do for your being and your cup? Right. How do you think you're going to come into a vulnerable conversation or a situation where you need to speak up and be seen invisible if your cup is full versus if it's empty? If you're connected to yourself and you take time to nurture and nourish yourself versus you don't. Two very different people, two very different states of being. And so for me, I've just noticed, like, the more I make time for the things I love, I. E. Love myself, the more that is the being from which I am communicating, engaging, sharing and embracing life. So, yeah, beautiful.
• 57:14
  Speaker B: I like this idea of taking or of, you know, you said like make sure the other person feels seen and heard and. And these sorts of things. I think it's really important to offer that. But in intimate relationships, I encourage to share going first. Right. So like, you know, or even saying like, do you need to go first? Do you need me to validate you right now? Are you feeling more active, motivated than I am? Right. And like really honoring each other's nervous systems? I think it's so important and, and I want to just say it's not. To emotionally validate someone is not meaning agreeing with them. You can put your ego aside because when you're validating someone's emotions, you're just literally acknowledging their emotional experience. That's it. It's not. You're saying you're not saying you're right, I'm wrong. It's just simply acknowledging that they're a human being that is having an emotional experience right now and you want to let them know that you see them. Right? It's, it's such an important distinction. So, yeah, great points, great points. You guys said all mine. I put slow down, Reveal my internal experience with the person. Reveal is everything. Like inauthentic relating, reveal is everything. Self doubt creates fear for me. Vulnerability creates fear for me. If I can reveal that fear, it softens it and allows me to settle into humility. Humility is the place where I communicate the best for from. And then humanizing all of this stuff, it's hard. It's really hard. I've been learning it for almost 20 years and I still struggle and I probably will until the day I die. And that's just part of being human. It's. We're talking about very complex things here. So don't put too much pressure on yourself, folks. Just give it a try and, and continue learning and growing through it. All right, well, I want to thank the guest, viewer, listener for coming and on this journey with us and thank you guys for sharing your wisdom. As always, please remember that this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy what we're creating, you can support us by making a donation to the show. There's a link in the show notes for that and you can also tap the thanks button if you're watching on YouTube to make a donation that way. And you can also subscribe to early access on Apple Podcasts where you can listen ad free and you'll gain early access to all of our episodes. All your support helps us to continue making content for you and for our community. And we do thank you in advance for your support. Come and connect with us. We love when you guys come to our sharing circles, our connection circles. We want to meet you. We love hearing that people come to the brotherhood through this podcast. So come in and share with us. And for everything else Gay Men's Brotherhood related, you can go to gaymensbrotherhood.com Much love everybody.