Latest / The Jon and Marc Podcast / Why Good Karma Builds Better Law Firms (60% Referral Strategy)

Transcript

Why Good Karma Builds Better Law Firms (60% Referral Strategy) · The Jon and Marc Podcast

0:00
The playbook for personal injury law firm Growth literally is the
0:04
Cooper Hurley playbook. And I would encourage you when
0:06
watching this podcast and listening to this podcast, you
0:09
got to be super honest with yourself.
0:11
There's certain things you just don't do well, and you got to
0:13
realize what you don't do well, so you can work on those and try
0:15
to improve them. It's a matter of giving back to
0:18
the community that's helped foster your business.
0:20
What is something that you see other firms doing that Cooper
0:23
Hurley would never do? And as a lawyer, you learn never
0:26
to say never. Welcome back to the John and
0:44
Mark podcast. We're here today with Jim
0:46
Hurley, managing partner of Cooper Hurley Injury Lawyers,
0:49
the car crash experts. Jim, thanks so much for joining
0:52
us today. I am very excited to be here
0:55
with both you guys to chat about whatever you want to chat about.
0:58
We came earlier today and we got to spend the whole day with your
1:02
team. We talked with your marketing
1:04
team, we talked with operations, we talked with HRI.
1:07
Think having this conversation at the end of the day after
1:09
we've been able to go through all those departments, really
1:11
insightful for us and looking forward to a great conversation.
1:15
A lot of what Mark and I talked about with people at law firms
1:19
on our podcast is squarely based around growth and your firm has
1:23
gone through a number of bursts of growth, one that you're
1:27
experiencing right now. I think a good way to start off
1:29
the conversation is balancing long term and short term growth.
1:35
I think you guys do an exceptional job at that.
1:37
We got to speak with Cassidy Lewis earlier today about some
1:39
of the initiatives that are in place, but I'd love to hear.
1:42
You can't forget to say Cassidy Lewis is our CMO or Chief
1:45
marketing officer, and she has a phenomenal job.
1:47
So I just want to be sure Cassie Lewis realizes that.
1:53
How do you balance short and long term growth while also
1:58
continuing to provide value to your clients?
2:01
That's a great question. And currently to answer that,
2:04
the firm right now we have 12 lawyers.
2:08
We have about 50 employees all in and then we're strictly a
2:12
personal injury business and primarily focused on auto
2:16
accidents. And currently our gross revenue
2:19
for this year is going to be about $12 million or so.
2:22
And we started out 14 years ago as two lawyers and about six or
2:28
seven people. So in 14 years we've really
2:31
grown tremendously and we're not where we want to go.
2:35
We want to continue to grow, but how you want to grow and the way
2:40
you grow is just a question you could talk hours and hours on.
2:44
And the bottom line is, is that I think each and every person
2:48
that listens to this podcast has to figure out where they want to
2:51
go, where they want to grow. It may not necessarily be where
2:54
I want to go and maybe where they want to go.
2:57
So I think that's an important question to ask yourself.
3:00
But where we're at, we want to go to $20 million and we want to
3:04
get there by 1/1/29. So we have about 2 1/2 or three
3:08
years to get there. So continually to grow, you've
3:11
got to go ahead and equip your firm to grow and the various
3:15
things that you need, the various people that you have.
3:18
And then the hard thing is, and you touched upon this is, is
3:20
that near term you still got to pay all the bills so that the
3:26
you want to get to 20 million and you want to get to 75 to 100
3:30
employees. But how do you do payroll?
3:32
How do you pay basic bills? And that's kind of the near term
3:35
struggle. So there's no formula, there's
3:37
no answer, there's no black and white, but you have to have some
3:41
plan in place in order to get to where you want to go.
3:45
So that the we do have a three-year plan in place where
3:49
we want to get to go. And part of that is how do we
3:52
pay the basic bills each and every month, each and every
3:54
year? So 60% growth going from 12 to
3:57
20 million is the goal over the next, call it, 3 1/2 years,
4:00
right? How do you begin to put together
4:03
the framework of that plan? How do you look ahead three
4:06
years in an industry that changes so rapidly as the
4:10
industry has been changing? I think the key thing as we chat
4:13
about this a little bit earlier today is is that you need the
4:17
right people in the right place. You know, good to great by Jim
4:21
Collins, which is a crazy book and everyone's read that I'm
4:24
getting the right people on the right seats and the right bus.
4:28
And I think in order to grow and where we want to grow, it's a
4:31
constant, constant challenge to find the right people.
4:36
And whether that's in the marketing department, whether
4:38
that's in the litigation department, whether it's in a
4:40
pre litigation department or that's an administration and
4:43
finance department, finding the right people is really
4:46
ultimately what's going to get you there.
4:48
And then I think the other big thing beside the people is, is
4:52
you really have to be committed to where you want to go.
4:55
A term I often use is relentless.
4:58
It can't be relentless. Each and every day, each and
5:00
every hour, you would drive yourself crazy.
5:03
You would drive your significant other crazy.
5:05
You would drive everyone you work with drive.
5:06
Yourself crazy. Drive yourself.
5:10
And it's easy to drive yourself crazy.
5:12
So I think you really have to be relentless in where you want to
5:15
go and constantly keep that target in mind each and every
5:19
month, each and every week. From a growth perspective, I
5:22
could not agree with you more. Like the the best way to get the
5:24
most important part is the people part.
5:25
How involved with your what's your role in making sure the
5:28
right talent is coming into the firm as you grow?
5:30
You know, it's probably really easy for you to get great hires
5:33
when there's just two of you guys and a couple employees.
5:36
But as you get more and more employees, what's the strategy
5:38
to continue to make sure that the right people are coming in
5:40
the firm, you know, as you're getting more and more of them as
5:43
you grow? Currently what we're trying to
5:45
do and Raleigh's want to find always trying to improve it is,
5:48
is that the, we have what I would call the traditional way
5:52
where we'll put out advertisements on LinkedIn and
5:55
indeed and things like that. And then we've you always use
5:58
placement services. Some placement services are
6:01
better than other placement services, but there's some
6:03
really quality placement services out there and we'll
6:06
utilize those people to try to find people.
6:08
Those are obviously a little bit more expensive because you have
6:10
to pay them. And then through word of mouth,
6:13
through networking, often times we'll find somebody just because
6:18
they live in this area and we're aware of them and they know us.
6:22
And timing wise, we'll be looking for somebody and they'll
6:25
be looking for somebody. So those are kind of like the
6:27
three areas. And I would love to say it's
6:30
unbelievably easy to find good people.
6:32
And the harsh reality that I personally have experienced as
6:35
the firm is growing over the last few years is it's brutally
6:39
hard to find out people. And then one of the worst things
6:42
and one of the more unpleasant things in my job is we have to
6:45
let people go because we hire them thinking they're going to
6:48
be great. And they just don't fit our
6:50
culture, they don't fit our values.
6:52
They're just not good overall employees, nice people.
6:55
We like them, but they just don't help us get to where we
6:58
want to go. And we have to let them go.
7:00
So that that's always a sad part of my job.
7:04
If you were to rewind back 14 years ago and you and John were
7:08
to start the firm again, what would you do differently?
7:12
I just kind of smile and chuckle.
7:13
That's if you've ever been in a significant relationship and
7:16
you're no longer in that significant relationship and you
7:18
think what could I have done differently to keep the
7:20
significant relationship intact? I think one of the things I
7:24
would have done different that I didn't realize back then is that
7:28
the I was working in the business and I really wasn't
7:32
working on the business when the firm first started.
7:35
I was still actively involved in litigation.
7:38
I was still actively involved in pre litigation as well as doing
7:41
marketing and doing some management and other aspects of
7:44
the firm. But I probably spent the 1st 5
7:47
or 6 years of the firm working in the business day in and day
7:51
out, doing litigation, going to court, doing depositions, the
7:55
clients doing lawyer stuff. So the first five or six years
7:59
of the firm, I didn't really build the firm pursuant to where
8:02
I wanted it to go because I was so busy doing lawyer stuff.
8:05
And it took me, as I say, 5 or 6 years to realize, and this is a
8:10
common saying, but you want to work on the business and not
8:13
necessarily in the business. Obviously you have to work in
8:15
the business to keep it going, depend on where you are.
8:18
But I didn't realize I really had to focus on working on the
8:20
business. So the last six or seven years I
8:23
really focused on that and I hate that was a big mistake I
8:26
made. If I done it earlier, I think
8:28
the firm would be way ahead of where it is today.
8:32
So speaking to your former self, rewinding back, what was that
8:36
point, the inflection point where you said, aha, I, I really
8:40
need to take a step back and I need to find people who can do
8:43
the things that I'm doing so that I can actually focus on
8:46
putting those people in place. I think that the one point that
8:49
I reached was that I had no time for anything, that I was doing
8:54
too much. I was married at the time.
8:56
I had children at the time and at the end of the day, your
8:59
family's always more important than your work, or it should be,
9:01
in my opinion. So I was ignoring my family and
9:04
then I was stressed out at work because I was working on cases.
9:07
I was doing the marketing, I was doing the management and I, I
9:10
just realized that, hey, we need to hire people to do some more
9:14
of the lawyer work so I can get away from that and kind of focus
9:18
on the business. So it wasn't a day I woke up.
9:21
It was just, I realized there was too much going on.
9:23
It wasn't being beneficial. Is that the advice that you
9:26
would give to attorneys who may be watching this today, who are
9:29
working in the business instead of on the business?
9:31
Would you advise them to evaluate where the business is
9:35
AT and maybe take that step back?
9:37
Yeah. I think from a business
9:38
standpoint, I tend to be more of an entrepreneur.
9:41
I really enjoy marketing. So stuff like this I really
9:44
enjoy and building a business I really enjoy.
9:47
I enjoyed the litigation. I had a lot of jury trials and
9:51
hundreds and hundreds of depositions.
9:53
And I did that for years and years and years.
9:54
I know what that's like and it's can be painful in so many
9:57
different ways. But for somebody that really
9:59
wants to build a business and hello out there for you law firm
10:04
people and lawyers out there, this is a business.
10:06
It's a service business, yes. It's a profession, yes, for
10:09
lawyers, but at the end of the day, if you not a good business
10:12
person, you're not going to be a lawyer in the way you want to
10:15
be. I think the most important thing
10:17
is, is that hey, just start out, take a day of the week and just
10:21
work on your business or take 4 hours in a week and work on your
10:24
business. If you're a smaller practice or
10:26
a solo, you still have to actively work in the business.
10:30
But if you just take 4 hours a week and say I'm going to work
10:34
on the business, I'm going to try to develop business, I'm
10:36
going to do some marketing ideas, I think that's the most
10:38
important thing you can do. Do you remember what some of
10:41
those first like hires were that you had that you where you start
10:44
offloading responsibility to someone else to do?
10:47
Was it either another child attorney, other people in
10:49
operations, a marketing person? Do you remember those initial
10:52
hires where they restart offloading things?
10:54
Yeah, that the we had somebody and we talked about finding good
10:59
people. One of the ways is just because
11:02
you know, people that live in the area, there was someone
11:05
named Jamie and should move to the area where a big military
11:09
presence. So she was military base and
11:12
that the she was from Connecticut and I'm from
11:14
Buffalo, NY go Buffalo Bills. And I knew her through a friend
11:18
and she said, you know, I'm just looking for some part time work.
11:22
And I was at the point where I needed someone to help with
11:25
marketing and we didn't have the resources to hire an in house
11:29
marketing person. And I was doing it at that
11:32
point. So one of the first hires was
11:34
Jamie and she had no background in marketing and she was part
11:38
time. But I could say to her, for
11:40
example, Jamie, here's 100 names and addresses.
11:44
Get a letter out to them saying if you ever hear of someone that
11:48
gets hurt in a car wreck, send them to us.
11:51
And she was probably the first hire I made along those lines,
11:54
and she worked with us for about two or three years and was
11:57
great. The competition in your market
12:00
has grown almost exponentially over the past few years between
12:06
local players who are investing heavily, other firms in the
12:10
region who are working more aggressively to gain market
12:13
share directly here in Hampton Roads.
12:15
And then you've got the national firms.
12:17
They're starting to make an entrance.
12:19
What do you think is the single most important decision that you
12:24
made that turn the firm into a market leader in your market?
12:30
That, as you said, you know, the law is always changing and the
12:33
business of law is always changing.
12:35
And then we have some national firms like Morgan and Morgan
12:38
coming in and some other firms. We're in the Virginia Beach,
12:41
Norfolk area. So we have firms from the
12:43
Richmond area, they're coming in as well.
12:47
So that I think the single thing that we decided that we could do
12:51
to kind of make our business survive those things would be to
12:55
really brand the law firm. And we spent a lot of time and a
12:59
lot of effort branding the law firm.
13:02
And what I mean by that is we want people to know when they
13:05
hear Cooper Hurley injury lawyers, we want people to know,
13:09
oh, they help people when they've been hurt in car
13:11
accidents and they're a local law firm and they have local
13:14
lawyers. So we've really focused on that
13:17
over the last three or four or five years.
13:20
And we're not where we want to be and we're still trying to get
13:23
where we want to be. But I think to a certain extent
13:26
that really protects us from national firms coming in or
13:29
regional firms coming in because they can't necessarily brand
13:32
themselves the way we have. What is something that you see
13:36
other firms doing that Cooper Hurley would never do?
13:40
One of the things we would never do as a lawyer.
13:44
You learn never to say never. Anyone has done depositions out
13:48
there, man, someone says I've never done this right away.
13:50
Red flag. So stuff we probably wouldn't
13:54
do, but we would always consider doing it.
13:57
We have decided we're not going to be what I would call super
14:02
aggressive indirect marketing and how we portray ourselves at
14:06
the firm. A common thing is most States
14:09
and most geographical areas have a lawyer that will market
14:13
themselves as the hammer. And their ads tend to be very
14:17
loud and very, very blunt and very direct.
14:21
And it's not that they're ineffective.
14:22
They can be very, very effective, but we decided from a
14:26
standpoint of what we want to portray ourselves as, that's not
14:29
where we want to go. So our marketing and our
14:32
advertising, our branding is, yes, we want you to know what we
14:36
do. We help people hurt in car
14:37
wrecks, but we're not going to be screaming it and yelling it
14:40
in your ear. So that is probably something we
14:44
wouldn't do in all likelihood. As the law firm has grown, how
14:49
do you keep the local small firm feel, whether it's with your
14:54
team or with your clients in the community almost doubling in
14:58
size right over the next three years, You've already grown
15:02
rapidly. What are the things that you can
15:05
do to still stay engaged in the community and stay engaged with
15:08
your team members as you continue to grow so fast?
15:10
Now that's an issue that the the 1st 5 or 6 years of the law
15:15
firm, we were a family law firm. So we're relatively small.
15:20
We knew everybody that I was familiar with a lot of our cases
15:24
and a lot of our clients. And as we've grown and we've
15:27
gotten bigger and bigger, by definition, it's very hard to
15:30
know everybody at the firm as well as I used to.
15:33
And then it's very hard to know all of our clients the way I
15:35
used to. And I think it's unbelievably
15:39
important from a firm culture standpoint to try to have
15:42
everybody enjoy the work environment to the extent
15:45
possible. You know, we're all here to work
15:48
and if you don't do your work, you won't be here.
15:51
But the end of the day you can have a good work environment and
15:53
do the work and be happy at the same time.
15:56
In my opinion, it's a challenge, but we've tried to incorporate
15:59
things like firm activities that would be non work related,
16:02
getting outside the office, going to a baseball game, going
16:06
to a bowling alley, something like that.
16:08
So everybody kind of gets to know each other.
16:10
And as I said, we're about 50 employees now, So it's hard to
16:13
get to know everybody like that. And then with our clients, try
16:17
to keep a small firm feel. We have various teams and
16:21
various teams help the clients. And one of the big things that
16:25
I've always emphasized is, is that I don't really want to feel
16:28
like a number. No one really wants to feel like
16:30
a number. And then in today's day and age
16:33
and, and, and I'm old, right seasoned.
16:36
I Greg Hype in 1977. So you guys weren't even thought
16:40
of back then, but you know, the personal touch, actually talking
16:45
to a human being, we still really emphasize that.
16:48
So if you call up, you actually talk to a human being and then
16:52
your team is actually human beings.
16:54
And on the teams, one of the things we really stresses is
16:57
that we have what we call personal Nuggets.
16:59
So when we're helping a client out, we'll always say, well, how
17:03
many children do you have or what sports teams do you like,
17:06
like the Buffalo Bills, Super Bowl bound, things like that.
17:10
So that way when we're talking to the client, we can ask them
17:12
about the kids, how the kids are doing or how their sport team is
17:14
doing. So we do try to keep it small,
17:17
firm, feel in that way. Those things are great.
17:20
We talked to Cassie about that a little bit this morning.
17:23
It's like those very unscalable things you can do where it
17:27
doesn't seem like you get a direct ROI, but it's like going
17:30
a little extra mile to collect that information and then bring
17:34
that up the client and making sure that, oh, I can't believe
17:36
they remember that. Can't believe they asked about
17:37
my kids. I can't believe they talked to
17:39
me about the Packer score, the Bill score on this call.
17:42
I can't believe they remember that those little small details,
17:45
while they seem significant, can really add up to a pretty big
17:48
impact with when your clients, your relationships and your
17:50
overall brain and perception in the market.
17:53
Right. And you know, and a story to go
17:54
with that because lawyers love to tell stories.
17:56
Often times I'll talk to a client.
17:58
I still have clients. I'm slowly getting out of the
18:02
exile and work on the business. Not in the business, but that
18:05
the we'll have a top off run a case.
18:08
So here at the firm, only lawyers can talk money.
18:11
So I'll be talking to a client on a top offer.
18:13
And the vast majority of people don't like lawyers and the vast
18:17
majority of people don't like law firms and the vast majority
18:20
of people don't like anyone associated with the law firm
18:23
because they've had bad experience possibly with them.
18:26
So I'll be talking to the client and all of a sudden I can hear a
18:31
reserve tone in their voice because it's a lawyer.
18:34
I don't really like lawyers. I don't really know a lot of
18:36
lawyers. I mean, in the middle of the
18:38
conversation, I'll say something.
18:39
How your two kids doing, You literally can hear the tone of
18:44
the voice change when I ask them about their two kids.
18:47
And that becomes much more conversational.
18:49
It's easier to talk to them. It's more of a familiar basis.
18:52
So something as small as that definitely does help.
18:55
And it takes the guard down like soften the shoulders and they
18:58
can have a real conversation. It is interesting to lawyers do
19:01
get a pretty bad rap in culture today.
19:03
Most of the time is because like someone like me is giving a
19:06
lawyer money because I have to pay for a service for something
19:09
that I don't want to do and I have to pay a lawyer exorbitant
19:11
a fee. With you, it's the other way
19:12
around where they're coming to you for help and you're helping
19:15
get them money and they don't pay you anything unless you win.
19:18
But if they don't use you, they can potentially get no money or
19:21
be in debt for their medical bills that they weren't
19:23
reimbursed for. So it's a very different
19:25
dichotomy compared to most other traditional lawyer
19:27
relationships. Right.
19:29
And the nice thing about if you're a personal injury lawyer
19:31
and you'll appreciate this at the end of the day, if you
19:33
resolve the case, you get a check and the client's name and
19:37
your name. So then as you say, you're
19:38
giving them money and that's, so that's a positive benefit.
19:42
You guys are really big on community involvement.
19:45
We talked to Cassidy about this today too, and she said it
19:48
started with you, with you actually saying I, hey, someone
19:53
in the community needs a little donation.
19:55
And then you said OK, 5 exit, send them a check.
19:58
Believe the story was a a nice old lady wrote a handwritten
20:02
note asking for $100 for her church and mailed it to the
20:05
firm. Yep.
20:06
You said send them 500, right? I'm sure she tells that story a
20:09
lot. Those types of things that that
20:12
you do in the community, those are not driven by the desire for
20:16
exposure. And when you talk to other
20:20
firms, when you go to mastermind groups, when you're at these
20:22
conferences, a lot of the brand exposure things are based on
20:27
putting our phone number somewhere.
20:29
Or how is this going to be tied back to direct ROI?
20:32
How do you decide the things that you were going to invest in
20:36
aside from, you know, someone sends you a letter, you say,
20:38
hey, this is a great cause. But how do you decide in the
20:41
vast world of initiatives that you could be doing in the
20:43
community, which ones get your blessing and which ones don't?
20:46
As a general rule that we've always felt that is the more
20:49
successful our business is, it's because of the community.
20:53
So it's everybody in the Hampton Roads area, Norfolk, VA Beach,
20:58
Hampton, Newport News. Because of our success, because
21:01
of the community, then we should give back to the community.
21:03
So we've always believed in giving back to the community.
21:06
And then how do we decide, generally speaking, that we have
21:10
two main areas that we look on #1 we're really big and try and
21:14
support kids in education because we're firm believers.
21:19
If kids get properly educated, they have such a better chance
21:23
in the world than if they're not properly educated.
21:25
So we really focus on that. And the second one is more of a
21:28
general type thing of worthy causes.
21:31
There's loads and loads of worthy causes.
21:34
We can't support each and every worthy cause.
21:37
But one of the things that we do do here each and every year, we
21:40
ask all the people that know us go ahead and tell us your worthy
21:44
cause and then they'll vote on it.
21:47
And the free worthy causes get the most votes, gets a
21:50
significant sum of money from the firm to support what their
21:54
particular causes for. As I say, it's it's a matter of
21:57
giving back to the community that's helped foster your
22:00
business. And I have found, and I'm part
22:03
of a mastermind group and I go to various conferences and I
22:05
interact with a bunch of lawyers, particularly personal
22:08
injury lawyers. I have found the vast majority
22:11
of personal injury lawyers have that same feeling that they do
22:14
get back to the community and they realize that if they're
22:17
successful, it's because of the community they live in, which I
22:20
think is a real benefit. The playbook for personal injury
22:23
law firm growth literally is the Cooper Hurley playbook.
22:28
I think you guys do a fantastic job.
22:29
For those of you that don't know, this is the vote for A
22:32
cause initiative that Jim is talking about.
22:34
I think it's fantastic. Literally every month you guys
22:37
are running a different initiative, whether it's a
22:39
backpack drive or Thanksgiving Dr. scholarships.
22:42
You guys do a really great job at that, and it seems like those
22:45
types of things are driven by the desire to truly just help.
22:48
And then all of the press and awareness comes because you guys
22:53
are just being good people, whereas sometimes you see it
22:57
sort of the opposite, right? What can I do to get media
22:59
attention? It's very, very interesting that
23:01
you guys have been able to benefit from this by just
23:03
constantly just sticking to your guns, right?
23:06
This is what we do. We support good causes and then
23:09
good things will come from that. Yeah, I know the theory of, you
23:12
know, good karma, that you know, the more good stuff you do at
23:16
the end of the day that's going to benefit you kind of the
23:18
abundance theory philosophy. So that the, I just think that's
23:22
a good way to to do business. It's a great way to do business
23:26
has been very successful for you, talking to you and the
23:29
Cassidy, you know you've made serious investments in these
23:32
initiatives from capital perspective like giving out a
23:35
lot of money. Also you have a lot of staff
23:37
just to help facilitate all these events.
23:39
Like doing all these events takes time and effort and
23:41
coordination to do so you invested a lot of time in people
23:45
to make sure these are happening.
23:46
As a result, you guys have a very successful referral program
23:50
of repeat clients from the community that sing your praises
23:53
and send people your way for new cases come in.
23:56
It might not be immediately from that one interaction, but
23:59
compounding over over a decade, it's led to a very successful
24:04
referral base from your community.
24:06
Right. So we were talking about
24:07
referrals earlier. You all have a referral program
24:11
that is managed for referrals from other attorneys, which I
24:15
think a lot of of the larger persons we firms do have.
24:18
But you also manage what you call the Friends of the Firm
24:21
initiative, which is people who just have had good experiences
24:25
with the firm, staying in touch with them and encouraging them
24:29
to maintain a relationship with you at the firm.
24:33
What percentage of your business would you say comes from either
24:37
the attorney referrals or friends of the firm, not direct
24:40
marketing? Currently a change is a little
24:42
bit year to year, but the number of cases from the friend of the
24:46
firm and that's people that know this and other attorneys is
24:50
approximately 50 to 60% of our new cases each and every year.
24:54
And then from a revenue standpoint, it's usually a
24:57
little bit higher. Our revenue standpoint is about
25:00
55 to 65% of our gross revenue each and every year comes from
25:05
cases that were derived from either attorneys or friend of
25:08
the firm. So it's a huge chunk of business
25:12
in both ways. This is a a flywheel, right?
25:18
As as you're growing, you're bringing more people into that
25:22
cycle and you're establishing relationships with them.
25:25
And then as your case counts have grown year after year after
25:27
year. Have you seen that like 5060%
25:30
ish percent just stay intact or has that number grown?
25:34
You know, it's been relatively consistent.
25:37
Some years it may fluctuate 10 or 15%, but it's generally in
25:41
that general area. So even if we've gotten bigger
25:44
and we've had more new cases, then they still represent more
25:48
new cases, but from a relative percentage standpoint, usually
25:52
in that ballpark. To me that's a a very shocking
25:56
number, right? To see more than half of cases
25:58
come through that funnel from an attribution standpoint, how do
26:02
you how do you actually get to that calculation?
26:04
And that's a great marketing question.
26:06
What we try to do, and this is all data is imperfect.
26:11
All data is imperfect. But what we try to do is when
26:13
they originally contact us, we'll say, well, how did you
26:16
hear about us? And they'll say the Internet
26:20
because we have a great Internet people.
26:22
CAMG, they do a great job for us.
26:25
They're phenomenal, SCO and all Internet related stuff.
26:28
So I would really give them a big push on the big positive,
26:32
but that the so I'll say Internet and then what we try to
26:37
do, that's our first level. And then our second level is, is
26:41
that during the course of the conversation?
26:43
Well, what do you like about the Internet?
26:45
Well, I went on the Internet because someone referred me to
26:48
you and that's where I wanted to get the number.
26:51
And then it's like, well, who referred you to us?
26:53
And they'll give us a name. So it's kind of A2 level thing
26:57
that we try to do on each and every case.
26:58
We can't do it on each and every case, but we're pretty good.
27:01
So ultimately that we try to track it to actually how we got
27:05
the case. So if they got the number from
27:08
the Internet, but we're actually referred by a former client or a
27:11
current client and we would attribute it to the current
27:14
client or former client. Have you been able to continue
27:19
to do that at the scale that you're growing, and do you
27:21
foresee yourselves being able to do that as you continue to grow?
27:24
One of the things that if you're on a growth path, that you'll
27:27
reach a point where you need to have full time intake people.
27:30
Prior to that, we had paralegals and legal assistance and
27:34
attorneys doing intake and we are losing cases because of
27:37
that. So in the recent past,
27:40
approximately 2 years or so, we had a dedicated intake person in
27:43
our department is 3 dedicated intake people.
27:46
So part of their job is to get that information.
27:48
So, you know, as we get bigger and bigger, they should be able
27:51
to get that information. Two years ago, so prior to that
27:55
you were outsourcing intake or doing an internal or 100%
27:58
internally? We are essentially doing 100%
28:01
internally and it wasn't a great way to do it.
28:05
As I said, we were losing cases that the paralegals didn't want
28:09
to take time away from their work, the legal assistants
28:11
didn't want to take time away from their work, the attorneys
28:13
didn't want to take time away from their work.
28:15
But when you're a smaller firm or even a mid size firm,
28:19
sometimes you just don't have the financial resources to have
28:22
a separate distinct intake department in house.
28:25
But you can always go out of house.
28:27
But we never went out of house. And you put intake underneath
28:30
marketing, correct? Right.
28:32
Is that something that you recommend?
28:33
Are you happy with that decision?
28:35
I at first did not agree with that.
28:37
And then as I mentioned earlier, Cassidy Lewis is our Chief
28:40
Marketing Officer and she does a great job.
28:43
Basically, we kept intake and marketing separate, distinct,
28:47
and then I coordinated the intake department.
28:50
And then Cassie was smart enough to realize that really intake
28:54
should be under marketing because they're so related in so
28:57
many different ways. And I didn't agree with her
29:00
because all lawyers are always right, especially me.
29:04
I'm always right. So we went through a transition
29:07
period of about 6 or 12 months and then Cassie really pushed
29:11
and I said, well, that's fine, let's try it and see if it
29:13
works. So we've had intake department
29:16
underneath marketing for about the last year, year and a half
29:20
and it really has worked well. So I was wrong and Cassie was
29:24
right. So she if she watches this,
29:26
she'll be happy I said that. It's a very uncommon way to
29:30
operate, but if it works, it works.
29:32
I never thought of it as an option but actually kind of
29:34
makes a lot of sense because intake is extremely closely
29:38
related to marketing and tie to the hips of the more aligned
29:41
they can be the better things can run.
29:44
You have to have a really great in house marketing leader in
29:49
order for that to happen. Otherwise not only could you
29:52
potentially fail marketing, but you fail at intake and you have
29:55
a lot of problems on your hand. So that's that's good.
29:57
I'm glad it's it's working for you.
29:59
It's growing for after hours. You just have like an after
30:02
hours service that'll capture a message for you.
30:04
Correct. We have after hours service and
30:07
then we have attorneys every month that are assigned to
30:09
follow up on those. So if it's the case that we want
30:12
and we recognize that we do get back to them after hours.
30:15
So getting back to your goal of like the growth, so you want to
30:18
grow to 20 million. What is your thought on that
30:20
from are you, do you think you'll be able to achieve that
30:24
goal just in your current footprint whether you have
30:26
offices today or do you think it it requires expansion to other
30:31
territories or or local areas to get that?
30:33
And that's a great question and we've thought about that.
30:36
We've discussed it. Currently our thinking is, is
30:40
that we rather be a big fish in a small pond than a small fish
30:44
in a big pond. So our current base is Norfolk,
30:48
VA Beach. We also have offices in Hampton,
30:52
Newport News, in Williamsburg, which people call the Peninsula,
30:55
but if you're not from the area, you have no idea what that
30:57
means. So it's the Williamsburg,
30:58
Hampton, Newport News area. Between those two areas, we
31:02
probably have maybe 2.53 million people.
31:07
So we're a relative really small market compared to let's say
31:10
Northern Virginia or some of the Florida markets or the New York
31:14
markets. So to get to the 20 million,
31:17
what we're trying to do is we're trying to really expand more so
31:21
into the Newport News, Hampton, Williamsburg area and have more
31:25
of a physical presence there and then continue working on the
31:29
area here. So we're a bigger fish and
31:31
smaller pond. And I think our area is big
31:34
enough where we could accomplish that goal and we could get to 20
31:38
million in gross revenue. And then at that point we would
31:41
probably think about possibly expanding to other geographical
31:45
areas. But the reason we decided on
31:47
that is under the theory of it, you can spread yourself too
31:50
thin. So you're doing a whole bunch of
31:53
stuff, but you're not doing any of it very well.
31:56
And then things are breaking down and fires are breaking out
31:58
and headaches are being caused. So we decided to try not to go
32:03
that route and kind of focus on a smaller area and really do
32:06
unbelievably good in our area, kind of like the shotgun versus
32:10
the rightful approach. Yeah, yeah.
32:13
Aside from just signing up more cases for your growth, I guess
32:19
the other two levers that you can pull are getting more of the
32:22
higher value cases or getting more for the cases that you're
32:27
already bringing in. Great.
32:29
Let's put marketing to the side for a minute.
32:31
You've, you've got marketing under control.
32:32
I think you guys do a fantastic job there.
32:34
What are some of the things that you can do internally with your
32:37
operations to get higher values from the cases that come in the
32:40
door? One of the things that we do not
32:43
do well, and I would encourage that one, watching this podcast
32:47
and listening to this podcast, you got to be super honest with
32:50
yourself. There's certain things you just
32:52
don't do well and you got to realize what you don't do well
32:55
so you can work on those and try to improve them.
32:58
Again, lawyers have huge egos. Litigation lawyers have even
33:02
choose your egos. I have a huge ego, I get that.
33:05
But The thing is you really got to realize what you're not good
33:08
at so you can improve it. One of the things we're not good
33:10
at is exactly what you asked. We have a lot of cases coming in
33:14
each and every month and that what we're really focused on
33:18
trying to do better, which will increase the number of good
33:22
cases in the firm is, is that recognizing the good case from
33:26
day one. And I know that sounds easy, but
33:31
it's really not. When you reach a certain level
33:33
in a certain, we average about 80 new cases each and every
33:35
month. And then those are cases have to
33:38
be assigned to various teams and they have to be filed up in the
33:40
appropriate way. So it's easy to say, Oh yeah, I
33:43
identify each and every great case that comes in and I assign
33:47
it to the appropriate team and we do the appropriate work on
33:49
that case. Easy to say, but we're not doing
33:53
that. So we're really focused on
33:54
trying to see the cases that have great value and then
33:59
working those cases right away as quickly as we can because of
34:02
that. And that's one of the things
34:04
we're not doing well. And that would increase the
34:07
value of our average case obviously, because we will get
34:10
more money at the end of the day for that case.
34:12
And we would do the client a great service because we'd be
34:15
working on that case in the appropriate way from day one and
34:18
try and get it resolved quicker than having it sit in the back
34:20
burner somewhere. Yeah, I would say one of the
34:23
things I respect very much about you and your team after spending
34:26
the whole day with you and and spending a lot of time is the
34:30
humility you have to just be like, this part doesn't work.
34:33
And being able to identify these are actual issues and that we
34:36
all need to resolve and the team being able to agree on it and be
34:39
like, yeah, we should do. No one has, no is is too proud
34:43
to admit that something's not working.
34:45
Everyone's happily to say, Yep, this isn't working.
34:47
This would make things better and come work towards the
34:49
solution. Sometimes, you know, egos can
34:51
get involved and people can maybe, you know, don't like
34:53
their baby to be called ugly. Your team very much as a culture
34:56
being like, yes, we all agree this is an issue and we're we're
34:59
open to any feedback or recommendations to help solve
35:01
these things. I think it's a great mentality
35:03
to have as a culture at a company to make sure you're
35:06
moving things forward because sometimes you kind of get stuck
35:08
when Cooper refused to change or agree that something is not
35:11
working the way it should. Right.
35:13
And no one likes change and I don't like change.
35:16
But you know, if you want to grow and you want to be
35:18
successful, you got to change on a regular basis.
35:21
And Cooper Hurley does a fantastic job at keeping up with
35:25
the trends, making sure you don't jump into every shiny
35:28
object that's out there, and being very deliberate about your
35:32
actions. Definitely something I think
35:33
that's very admirable about how you and John run the firm.
35:36
So some great piece of advice. I really thank you, Jim, for the
35:39
time that you gave us not only in this interview, but today to
35:42
come and meet your team. Really, really great opportunity
35:44
to speak with you. So thank you very much.
35:46
And I really enjoyed this and I've done some podcast from time
35:49
to time. John wants to reach out to you,
35:51
me directly that my e-mail and I tend to be an emailer is Jay
35:55
Hurley at cooperhurley.com. You can obviously give me a
35:59
call. I still talk to people on the
36:00
phone, 757-333-3333 and that and I'm happy to chat with you.
36:07
If I can help you, I'm happy to help you as well.
36:10
Awesome. Awesome.
36:11
Thank you so much. All right, I can't wait for
36:12
dinner later.