Latest / The Psychology of Relationships / Why So Many Men Are Struggling in Modern Love (And What We Can Do About It) w/ Dr Greg Matos

Transcript

Why So Many Men Are Struggling in Modern Love (And What We Can Do About It) w/ Dr Greg Matos · The Psychology of Relationships

0:00
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm Julie Kraftcheck, and I'm UASU.
0:03
[SPEAKER_03]: This is the Psychology of Relationships.
0:07
[SPEAKER_03]: Loneliness isn't just a personal struggle, it's becoming a cultural one, and lately much of the conversation has centered on the rise of lonely single men, often framed as a crisis, without much nuance or context.
0:21
[SPEAKER_03]: In this episode, we're joined by Dr. Greg Matos, psychologist and author of The Viral article, What's Behind The Rise of Lonely Single Men, to unpack what's really driving this trend.
0:31
[SPEAKER_03]: We explore how relationship standards and gender roles have shifted why there's a growing skills deficit for both men and women when it comes to building and sustaining relationships and how emotional literacy, communication, and relational competence were never actually taught to most of us.
0:50
[SPEAKER_03]: Rather than pointing fingers, this conversation focuses on responsibility, growth and possibility.
0:56
[SPEAKER_03]: Dr. Motto's breaks down what meaningful change looks like, how we can better understand our partners and what it takes to build healthier, more connected relationships moving forward.
1:07
[SPEAKER_03]: Remember to subscribe to the psychology of relationships on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen.
1:13
[SPEAKER_03]: and of this episode helped reframe how you think about the connections and the loneliness epidemic we'd love a rating or review.
1:20
[SPEAKER_03]: This is the psychology of relationships and you're listening to an episode that just might change the way you show up for love.
1:27
[SPEAKER_03]: Enjoy!
1:31
[SPEAKER_03]: Who is this man?
1:32
[SPEAKER_03]: That's causing such a splash.
1:33
[SPEAKER_03]: His name is Dr. Greg Matoz, the article that he recently wrote in Psychology.
1:38
[SPEAKER_03]: Today, it's called the Rise of Lonely Single Men.
1:42
[SPEAKER_03]: That's been shared a good Jillian times.
1:46
[SPEAKER_03]: What made you write this article, the Rise of Lonely Single Men?
1:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, two things primarily the first being that I spent the last year building a better love project, which is my 501c3 charity.
1:58
[SPEAKER_00]: We're in a better love project.
1:59
[SPEAKER_00]: We have 40,000 followers there on TikTok and YouTube and elsewhere.
2:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And I basically was spending a lot of time with women, which is not new for me.
2:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I grew up with a home with five older sisters and an amazing mom and dad as well.
2:11
[SPEAKER_00]: But I spent a lot of time listening to my audience, which I'm sure you do often, because we care about our audience.
2:16
[SPEAKER_00]: We're actually invested in our audience well-being and our listeners well-being.
2:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And the women who I was speaking to were around my age.
2:24
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're talking, you know, 25 to 35.
2:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a little older than that right now.
2:28
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's our demo, age range.
2:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And women, mostly women who are either single, women who were in relationships where they're lacking emotional connection or folks who had like me then married divorced and who were dating again.
2:40
[SPEAKER_00]: So people at all ranges of relationships you can be in were all telling me the same thing, which again is nothing new, which is why I'm surprising that it went viral.
2:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Ask anyone of your audience members and I did not say anything surprising, all right, but apparently it was shocking and then apparently also angered a lot of mostly single white men who were like harassing me and telling me I was all sorts of those things.
3:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope for their sake that they actually read my article.
3:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's the people that you need to read it, of course.
3:09
[SPEAKER_01]: So are you seeing this, you know, mostly with hetero men or is it across the gamut?
3:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Most of my audience members, I mean, this is really what it's at.
3:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And TikTok, like I said, hundreds of audience members who have spoken to it last year on TikTok, most of them in hetero sexual relationships.
3:25
[SPEAKER_00]: We know that love, true love, fierce love, a healthy love has absolutely nothing to do sexual orientation or gender expression or any of those things, social constructs.
3:33
[SPEAKER_00]: But,
3:33
[SPEAKER_00]: When it comes down to it, heterosexual men specifically, my brothers out there who I have a deep well of compassion for, are struggling in being able to dream with the people they're dating and the people that they're getting married to and being able to satisfy them and themselves, even though they don't understand that yet, but to satisfy themselves, be happy or healthier and have a more emotionally rich existence if they just focus on a few life skills that I teach it a better love project, by the way, for free.
4:00
[SPEAKER_03]: Nice.
4:01
[SPEAKER_03]: Very kind of you.
4:02
[SPEAKER_03]: Now the reason why your article was shared so much is the title.
4:07
[SPEAKER_03]: I actually feel like a lot of people didn't even read through the entire article before they hit the share button.
4:13
[SPEAKER_03]: That title is probably quite triggering for some people like the men who've been harassing you.
4:17
[SPEAKER_03]: Can you put it in your own words for those people who did not read through the
4:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm guessing that your audience members are out there looking for the love of their life, maybe they believe that they're multiple loves that they could have from those.
4:32
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I believe, by the way.
4:33
[SPEAKER_00]: But whoever you are and whatever you're doing, Married or not, if you look at the relationship landscape right now and you see what dating looks like right now, the one key thing that really got me going here and writing this article is the fact that if you look at online dating, if you look at dating apps specifically,
4:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Most women that I have spoken to through TikTok notes where are either fed up overwhelmed, exhausted by the whole fucking thing.
4:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And the primary reason I think is that 62% of 64% of app users are men, most folks on the apps, heterosexual, most seeking heterosexual relationships, not enough men that the women want, but many men.
5:13
[SPEAKER_00]: who are seeking relationships and if you don't know how to establish emotional connection via tax to message for instance, which is a very soft skill, very key skill, then you're going to lose the game from the get-go.
5:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I didn't go into that detail, but bottom line women in general heterosexual women in general, I'll say this loud and clear is this the most important point, healthy relationship standards for that group of human beings is rising and they're able
5:41
[SPEAKER_00]: much longer than men, including me, can.
5:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And what we know is that one of the things that most of these folks are looking for is a more emotionally rich, connected relationship with someone who can effectively communicate with them and there's nothing new about what I'm saying.
5:56
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm saying it.
5:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we definitely are going to dive into the more specifics, but I'm curious before we do that.
6:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, your own experience that I've observed all these people, like, is this something that you've struggled with and had a learn to overcome or do you feel like these skills have come naturally to you?
6:13
[SPEAKER_00]: The skills, okay, here we go.
6:15
[SPEAKER_00]: We're getting into a ladies and gentlemen.
6:16
[SPEAKER_00]: The one inclination I have is the psychologist is like never self-disclose, right?
6:22
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm getting over with you right here on the day of a podcast.
6:26
[SPEAKER_02]: It's history.
6:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Making it right now.
6:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I mentioned it to you before I grew up in a large family.
6:32
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a large Portuguese family, very traditional, very traditional gender roles, very traditional cultural norms around it.
6:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Emotional expression and restrictions around all that stuff.
6:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Just normal shit that all of these guys who I'm trying to talk to out there,
6:46
[SPEAKER_00]: and also in my clinical practice, which luckily, you know, I have there here and so they actually listen to me.
6:51
[SPEAKER_00]: But in general, to understand that this stuff doesn't actually come naturally, right?
6:56
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not something we're gonna just fucking absorb from our organic existence and our cultures of origin.
7:02
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not gonna happen.
7:03
[SPEAKER_00]: We have to learn it from somebody.
7:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And if we don't have examples of men like that in our existence, who are able to communicate with affection and intimacy and all these other things, how are we gonna figure it out?
7:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Hopefully you come to therapy with me or someone like me anywhere in the world if you can access somebody So you can sit down and learn these skills doesn't take long.
7:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not talking about fucking ears of therapy I'm talking about maybe eight sessions To figure out some saucekills so to answer your question.
7:28
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it doesn't come naturally.
7:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Believe me
7:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Ask my sisters.
7:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I might be more emotionally expressive than my sisters are you have to ask them that question But I learned this stuff in part because I became a psychologist and in order to do my work I have to be able to do that.
7:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to be able to emotionally attune to my clients And so they didn't also teach me that in the Marine Corps because I served four years in Marine Corps And I served in combat and I did a lot of things and they don't teach you vulnerability in the Marine Corps But I could tell you they do when you are becoming a psychologist in Boston
8:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I learned those skills becoming what I am today and what I do today and what my passion is today, which is just to help people love each other more fiercely.
8:07
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for your service, because it's very much needed in today's world.
8:12
[SPEAKER_03]: We feel like we're headed into a love crisis.
8:15
[SPEAKER_03]: We're a love deficit where people may want to love.
8:18
[SPEAKER_03]: They want to feel the love, but they don't know how to love or how to even show that love.
8:22
[SPEAKER_03]: And something you said that
8:24
[SPEAKER_03]: brings up a lot for me.
8:25
[SPEAKER_03]: It's the fact that this culture, at least the US culture, the way we idolize people, it's just so wrong.
8:32
[SPEAKER_03]: We idolize in terms of heteromen, we put these men on a pedestal where like an Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos, where they don't give a shit about their families, all they're doing is making money and maybe disrupting the industry.
8:45
[SPEAKER_03]: And then for the women, we idolize women who don't even know men who got their degrees, who got their shit together, their CEO, their girl bosses or whatever they're like doing everything.
8:56
[SPEAKER_03]: And those are the women we idolize.
8:59
[SPEAKER_03]: And these two characters that we're idolizing are opposing characters.
9:03
[SPEAKER_03]: Do we not see that?
9:04
[SPEAKER_03]: The men are not family people and the women don't need men.
9:07
[SPEAKER_03]: So you believe that the younger and little age men are the only estate that
9:14
[SPEAKER_03]: Why do you think that is?
9:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, listen, you're already laid it out.
9:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for letting that out so beautiful.
9:20
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I mean, listen, there's an opportunity here.
9:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me speak to the opportunity and try to answer your question at the same time.
9:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if I'll be good enough to do it.
9:28
[SPEAKER_00]: But the opportunity here is Gen Z, okay?
9:32
[SPEAKER_00]: The millennials, are you all millennial?
9:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a millennial.
9:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm an elder millennial.
9:35
[SPEAKER_00]: We're all very out there, okay.
9:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, but we're listening, everybody, millennials, this millennials that we're basically saving the world right now.
9:42
[SPEAKER_00]: So everybody come down, right?
9:43
[SPEAKER_01]: We've learned how bad it could be, right?
9:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why we're saving the world.
9:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, we are the bridge.
9:50
[SPEAKER_00]: We are the bridge to something beautiful here.
9:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's Gen Z to be honest with you and everyone after.
9:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Now listen, I don't have a child yet, although I hope to be a good dad someday, but my oldest niece, who's 30, just had her first child in the UK.
10:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think about her, my great niece now.
10:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think like, what is the existence in this world that I'm going to leave her and talk about role models.
10:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't look at any of those
10:14
[SPEAKER_00]: people you mentioned as a role model FYI.
10:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I think about the highest virtue that I have, which is love.
10:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And what is Gen Z doing now that's maybe will fuck them up, but also could save the world.
10:25
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like less intimate, less connected, less in the college years.
10:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been talking about that in psychology days.
10:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And you mentioned this.
10:32
[SPEAKER_00]: There's an intimacy gap.
10:33
[SPEAKER_00]: There's all these things.
10:34
[SPEAKER_00]: But if we millennials and everyone
10:36
[SPEAKER_00]: After us, specifically Gen Z, can really get their act together with this emotional connection thing.
10:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the opportunity exists for us to actually achieve more intimacy, more connection, and the kind of love that we all want to experience, which is a fierce healthy love, and a secure attachment.
10:54
[SPEAKER_00]: with someone who adores us and wants to champion our dreams.
10:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And we know that these relationships already exist.
11:01
[SPEAKER_00]: John and Julie Gottman have 50 years of scientific research to suggest the masters are long term relationships work.
11:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just hoping more of your audience members meet those people as they're dating.
11:10
[SPEAKER_01]: So, that's really fascinating and I definitely want to go in more depth.
11:13
[SPEAKER_01]: But you a kind of alluded to this that the society, the way it's projecting certain archetypes.
11:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would argue that it's women too, like less and less emphasis on relationships, and more about building own identity is what we've seen portrayed.
11:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess from your perspective, like, why do you think this is detrimental?
11:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And we really do need to prioritize love in love each other fiercely.
11:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't disagree with the statement you've just made and I was recently doing a interview with a reporter in Sweden who's talking to me something around this, what you're talking about, which is like, what happens actually?
11:50
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not there by the way.
11:51
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not talking to that.
11:52
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not there by the way.
11:53
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not there by the way.
11:54
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not there by the way.
11:55
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why we do the John vote now.
11:57
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why we do the John vote now.
11:58
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why we do the John vote now.
12:00
[SPEAKER_00]: She was saying to me, well, what happens if you do experience some level of gender equality in a romantic relationship on a date, et cetera, et cetera?
12:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, who is the one pursuing who's the one out of, right?
12:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Then we're not there yet.
12:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Just more like, you know, why is love even important?
12:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Because our society is, you know, deemphasizing it.
12:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't, I think it's not just men.
12:21
[SPEAKER_01]: It's women also.
12:22
[SPEAKER_00]: So one of the reasons, if you look at the data in terms of college age, dateers, and you see the intimacy and the frequency of dating and sexual and immaceless, I'll go down.
12:30
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the things that sociologists are pointing to as you're mentioning are these norms around prioritization of other values, away from marriage, away from yada yada.
12:40
[SPEAKER_00]: more toward financial freedom and, of course, becoming, you know, queens.
12:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm all about women being the best existing version of them, so because if men are the best versions of our sauce, we can figure that shit out.
12:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
12:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Has the pendulum swung too far?
12:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that what you're suggesting?
12:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think so.
13:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the fucking pendulum needs to swing harder that there's an actual, consistent shift in gender norms.
13:06
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not there yet.
13:07
[SPEAKER_00]: The fucking tipping point hasn't been
13:09
[SPEAKER_00]: in America.
13:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I can tell you for sure.
13:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you look at the Middle East and other places, you definitely have fucking problems.
13:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
13:15
[SPEAKER_03]: Here's another way to think about this question, too, but I'm curious what you think of this.
13:19
[SPEAKER_03]: We do have a lot of male listeners who've told us they've given up.
13:22
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm in my late 30s or in my 40s, it hasn't worked out for me.
13:26
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just going to sit back and see what happens.
13:29
[SPEAKER_03]: If it doesn't happen for me, it doesn't happen for me.
13:30
[SPEAKER_03]: We've actually hurt many women say this, too, but in a much more
13:34
[SPEAKER_03]: combat of tone.
13:35
[SPEAKER_03]: But the point of this is a lot of people are giving up on love and relationships, thinking that maybe I shouldn't try as hard.
13:42
[SPEAKER_03]: And I wouldn't have all these headaches that I have with modern dating.
13:47
[SPEAKER_00]: What is your response to that dating and relationships comes down to the most important element of anything I've ever taught or spoken about when it comes to relationships, which is creating shared meaning and creating shared meanings comes from a deep understanding.
14:01
[SPEAKER_00]: a deep understanding of our core values and what's most important to us.
14:04
[SPEAKER_00]: If love was one of those things growing up, if the idea of creating a home with someone else that was peaceful and caring and supportive, and if you want to exist in a world where your aspirations and dreams actually become reality, where you can be the queen or the king, or you can be the boss, and then whatever sense then you want a fierce healthy love, because a fierce healthy love is going to support
14:31
[SPEAKER_00]: and your ability to experience not only your own emotional, physical, spiritual version of this life in a different new way, but you're going to create something that cannot be created alone.
14:42
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yes, of course you could do beautiful, wonderful things as a single human being.
14:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm almost, I'm certain that the men who talk to you about this were not very happy about that.
14:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I know I can speak just from myself right now.
14:55
[SPEAKER_00]: anyone who's creating anything, anyone who's building anything, anyone who believes in legacy.
15:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Not only in that they have inherited something amazing, both culturally and financially, maybe whatever, but that they want to carry on a tradition and perpetuate a tradition, a new tradition that's worthy of legacy, is going to want to not give up on love.
15:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And I hope they don't.
15:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Holy smokes.
15:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Ladies and gentlemen, do not give up on a healthy love.
15:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think you bring up such good points like of just what love could be and we it's unfortunate because dating right now is not what you described.
15:29
[SPEAKER_01]: This harmonious like peaceful, happy place of meaning and I think that is
15:35
[SPEAKER_01]: part of the problem.
15:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think you brought up a good point to that women are becoming financially secure powerhouses.
15:42
[SPEAKER_01]: They can do it alone.
15:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why your article is seeing that men could get left in the dust if they don't step it up a notch.
15:49
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think ultimately, both men and women don't want that.
15:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Nobody wants that.
15:53
[SPEAKER_01]: No one wants it, exactly.
15:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like I'm glad that you're kind of bringing to light.
15:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So I want to go through some of the main parts of your article.
16:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, you talk about there's a few key things that are contributing to these challenges.
16:08
[SPEAKER_01]: So dating apps are one of them, relationships, standards, and a skilled deficit.
16:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So I guess to kick it off, maybe like, how do you think dating apps make it harder for men?
16:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, just the numbers game, which I already mentioned, that number's game is fierce, and I don't care where you might measure yourself on the attractiveness scale physically or the whole total profile.
16:32
[SPEAKER_00]: How well you think you've crafted those one liners, those witty prompts, whatever it is, if you're on hands or bumble or anything else, which by the way, I recommend hinge.
16:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't recommend bumble if you're a single man.
16:43
[SPEAKER_00]: and we get into that too.
16:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
16:44
[SPEAKER_01]: You might want to get into it.
16:47
[SPEAKER_01]: It's usually the opposite for.
16:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that?
16:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
16:50
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
16:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, the sugar.
16:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway.
16:54
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, bottom line, you have to craft something that's almost
16:58
[SPEAKER_00]: fucking just stellar.
16:59
[SPEAKER_00]: You could be the most attractive human being doesn't matter.
17:02
[SPEAKER_00]: The number gain alone crushes the spirit of women.
17:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Unless you're in bumble, maybe that's why you like mumble.
17:09
[SPEAKER_00]: But it crushes, right?
17:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Because there's just so much coming through that you have to pull off an initial impression, just like any other time in world history.
17:20
[SPEAKER_00]: and to be able to pull off that first impression in an emotionally evocative way, which is the only fucking way you're gonna stand out unless you're just super fucking hot.
17:29
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to be able to actually have the soft skills to be able to initiate a conversation like that, you know, an initial message or anything else.
17:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Unless you're a bumble, cause then the woman initiates that.
17:38
[SPEAKER_01]: We talked to Michael Kay, who's the head of communications of PR at OKCupid, and he was talking about what women want has dramatically changed.
17:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Used to be tall-dark at handsome, they're financially secure, like those were the big things that women were going after.
17:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And now it's emotional availability, communication skills.
17:58
[SPEAKER_01]: more of the soft skills that are different.
18:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's actually a really good thing that we're evolving to what we're looking for because you would argue that in the past that was just setting us up for vastly unequal relationships and gendered situations.
18:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that's the root of it that men alone can't just rely on what they once did and they have to adapt to kind of the new standards is that what you're saying with dating apps or is it a different thing?
18:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, the new standards are across the board and I just want to take it out of the context of the gender piece, even just to say that if you would work with me in a couple of therapy, I would be talking to you the same way regardless whatever do you point, but the bottom line is this you have to be able to pull off the soft skills and the soft skills may have been in some way shape or form gendered or whatever in the past, but they can no longer be.
18:51
[SPEAKER_00]: you need to be able to understand how in each moment of every day of your life, your thoughts, your emotional experience, and your actions, all arise individually.
19:01
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to be mature enough and responsible enough to recognize that, to be open to potentially if you need to figure out those skills with a professional, a mental health professional, a coach, I don't care where you get it, you can go on TikTok.
19:13
[SPEAKER_00]: at a better love project and learn everything you need to know about a healthy fierce love for free, by the way, it's my charity.
19:19
[SPEAKER_00]: But the bottom line is you've got to get the skills because the standards have changed.
19:23
[SPEAKER_00]: People are not going to settle for things anymore.
19:25
[SPEAKER_00]: We already see that.
19:27
[SPEAKER_00]: We see 50, 67 year olds divorcing their partners because they're not happy.
19:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Marriages which for most people or dating monogamous relatives still go are going to get harder and harder and harder as we live longer and longer and longer.
19:40
[SPEAKER_00]: That means we need to have better matches from the start.
19:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Why the fuck would you choose someone who cannot emotionally connect with you?
19:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Why would you choose someone who cannot communicate effectively with you?
19:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Why would you choose somebody who does not respond effectively to your bids when you're texting each other before first date?
19:56
[SPEAKER_00]: The standards have changed.
19:58
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my gosh.
20:00
[SPEAKER_03]: It's because we're living longer.
20:01
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it really is like you said because back in the day when the life expectancy was 50 years old, you get married, you pop out a few babies and you die.
20:10
[SPEAKER_03]: Like it's pretty fast.
20:12
[SPEAKER_03]: You don't have to worry about your relationship or empty nesters.
20:15
[SPEAKER_03]: You just die before you have to work on your relationship.
20:18
[SPEAKER_03]: And now we see so many people after they become empty nesters, having to work on the relationship and then going through divorce.
20:27
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is actually such a major pattern in China right now where the divorce rates are skyrocketing, especially since COVID, because the culture really did not see favorably divorce back then.
20:40
[SPEAKER_03]: But now because of people are living longer, it's just becoming more prevalent and the government doesn't know what to do whether they're like,
20:46
[SPEAKER_03]: fuck is happening.
20:47
[SPEAKER_03]: So that is actually really interesting that our life expectancy is feeding into our relationship standards.
20:54
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's also what's causing this loneliness because now we are taking our time to find our partners and it's very confusing.
21:02
[SPEAKER_03]: In the third contributing factor to this is skills deficit.
21:07
[SPEAKER_03]: Tell us more about that.
21:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this is exactly what I think Julie may be mentioned a little bit of this earlier.
21:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Those communication skills are the soft skills that we need in life.
21:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, but listen, we're not talking about some like strange rare things.
21:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm talking about when you get home at the end of the night, giving your wife a kiss and a hug.
21:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe or if she's coming home that when she gets them you give her a hug and a kiss that you seek understanding and emotionally validate your partner versus trying to persuade them of your perspective on something bringing up issues to one another with gentle startup like I feel sad I didn't get a hug this morning can you give me one now like if we just learn these simple formulaic ways So maybe we've got a solution here for the government out of China if you just figure out
21:49
[SPEAKER_00]: these very core-life skills for emotional connection and everybody learned them, like, would be so different.
21:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I think though, you know, it's all kind of tying together.
21:58
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, we are generation two was a byproduct of divorce.
22:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, our parents, you know, outside of China in the US culture, divorce was the most prominent with our parents generation.
22:10
[SPEAKER_01]: and I think like we saw that like what we've been told with relationships doesn't work and we're wanting better and part of it's that we're living longer part of it's that women can support each other and get all plays together.
22:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I agree with you that I think this is a universal issue for men and women.
22:28
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't matter necessarily your gender.
22:30
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just can't you adapt and lure the right skills and
22:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, not every woman has these skills either, but we do know that women read more self-help books.
22:40
[SPEAKER_01]: We do know that women listen to more self-improvement podcasts, more relationship podcasts.
22:45
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're the guy, listen to this right now, you are ahead of the game and you are cheers to your brother.
22:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, that's a thing as though, but I totally agree is like, the more I even did this podcast, I feel like my relational skills and my EQ, I think people really value EQ over IQ at this point.
23:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Not that they don't value IQ either, but like EQ is like, we hear over and over again as a top trait that people desire in a partner.
23:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think what I'm gathering from you is that like, men are not socialized this way.
23:14
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a lot of ketchup that needs to happen, a lot of taking
23:19
[SPEAKER_01]: How do men start to do this work, essentially?
23:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to take this out of the context of men for a second, because my answer is going to get to that.
23:26
[SPEAKER_00]: But there's a lot of conversation in my audience about narcissism, narcissists, et cetera, et cetera.
23:31
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, and I don't know, you may have done a million episodes on narcissists this way, I don't know.
23:35
[SPEAKER_01]: We hear people, but I would say that's like challenges that you cue of women in that case, to just throw that out on each.
23:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Ooh, oh, I like that.
23:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, all right, all right, all right, all right.
23:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I roll for that saying.
23:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I push back on this all the time of my show because I say hey listen people who have who narcissistic personality disorder very small group people right yeah they're mostly men we understand that but very small group people now is it the case and I talked to my honest about this is it just the case that we have lost connection with skills or maybe never learn them to be able to validate emotions in the first place and that's the more likely thing.
24:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I see what you're saying.
24:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not like this intentional.
24:15
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just lack of skill.
24:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And so at the end of the day, the only way this is gonna get resolved is action.
24:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know what the solution is because I started this nonprofit, but the intention of talking to couples and I'm for, you know, ends up being 97% of my honest is women to your point.
24:32
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not reaching man unless they're angry at me.
24:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
24:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know what the solution is.
24:37
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why you share today because we have bad.
24:41
[SPEAKER_01]: We have bad news.
24:42
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe it is good to reach out to the ones who are angry because they maybe they are ready for a change or they are listening at least.
24:50
[SPEAKER_03]: But the kind of a gendered statement here is we do have women telling us I'm just so.
24:56
[SPEAKER_03]: ahead of the game when it comes to self awareness and personal development that I find men not really closing the gap or in my age range.
25:05
[SPEAKER_03]: So how do I find the right guys for me who are emotionally equipped to be with me?
25:11
[SPEAKER_03]: And so what I'm hearing you say is it's maybe you know for anybody in this position should rethink that statement and it's less about the skills that someone has but more about are they willing to learn and do they have the necessary
25:26
[SPEAKER_03]: hash it until late.
25:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think it takes a stance of non-defensiveness.
25:30
[SPEAKER_00]: That is the most important thing in any of this.
25:33
[SPEAKER_00]: The antidote, in my view to this sort of narcissism, I'm going to say that in the broader sense, is the antidote to defensiveness.
25:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And the antidote to defensiveness is taking ownership for just maybe a little piece of whatever it is that we're hearing, whoever it is that's saying, something to us, about our place in the context of the issue, whatever that is.
25:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Even if we don't agree, we don't even need to.
25:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And I get to pass it.
25:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Always say, oh, maybe I did that.
25:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell me more, but maybe I can grow.
26:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell me more, oh, maybe there's something I can learn.
26:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I can improve.
26:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I can be a better leader.
26:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I can be a better coach.
26:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I can be a better business, whatever.
26:13
[SPEAKER_00]: With all of the social skills I'm going to learn on how to love my partner more effectively.
26:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think some of it though too, I was just thinking like, you know, to get to therapy, usually something needs to happen a lot of times.
26:25
[SPEAKER_01]: There needs to be the big breakup or, you know, some other challenge, maybe it's not even related to love, but just in your personal life that got you there.
26:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe the challenge in itself is just that dating isn't going my way, you know.
26:39
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think what's hard is that women have been socialized for so long that, like,
26:47
[SPEAKER_00]: getting socialized that way too.
26:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm there with you.
26:49
[SPEAKER_00]: But I know I get I don't know.
26:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you think men truly don't want that fierce, amazing passionate sexy fire.
26:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I can love that.
26:59
[SPEAKER_01]: We're absolutely, they want it.
27:01
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think this is where I think there might be the disconnect because the way we've been socialized.
27:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that like when it doesn't happen?
27:08
[SPEAKER_01]: You're just like, oh, I'll just ignore it and focus on the stuff.
27:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been socialized that, you know, equates to success for women though.
27:15
[SPEAKER_01]: That's like, oh my god, I need a seek out help.
27:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I need to listen to the podcast.
27:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I need to get the self-help book.
27:21
[SPEAKER_01]: It's more of like a fire drill that's happening where men it might just be like, I'm just going to brush it to the side.
27:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, maybe I haven't been on a date in six months.
27:30
[SPEAKER_01]: because on my career, right, exactly, but like the problem though with that is that there's less eligible men in the pool.
27:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Those men still aren't happy, right?
27:39
[SPEAKER_01]: If ultimately deep down, you're right.
27:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think this is what they desire because who doesn't want a meaningful connection.
27:46
[SPEAKER_01]: That is going to propel you in life, but I just don't know if it's always a self-aware, if that makes sense.
27:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, if they knew that if they wait too long, they're gonna fuck themselves up.
27:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I think they would take action quicker.
27:59
[SPEAKER_00]: What do I mean by that?
28:00
[SPEAKER_00]: The longer people stay out of the dating pool, avoidance starts to creep up, anxiety and prioritization, then ships those things, because now I mean, wanna be anxious, I don't wanna be uncomfortable.
28:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't wanna face rejection, I wanna face all this night.
28:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So time,
28:14
[SPEAKER_00]: is of the essence ladies and gentlemen, don't let another day pass by with these women on dating apps without good choices, go get some new skills, use them on niche.
28:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's a big thing biological clock for women.
28:26
[SPEAKER_01]: There's not that pressure for men, too.
28:28
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a pressure for me.
28:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm looking at the situation.
28:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm saying, okay, I'm 39.
28:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to turn 40.
28:33
[SPEAKER_00]: What is it that I wanted my life?
28:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I told you earlier.
28:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I was divorced.
28:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was married.
28:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I had a fear of love.
28:37
[SPEAKER_00]: By the way, that was amazing.
28:39
[SPEAKER_00]: It was
28:39
[SPEAKER_00]: very new.
28:39
[SPEAKER_00]: What do I want in my life?
28:41
[SPEAKER_00]: The biological clock is with us as well.
28:43
[SPEAKER_00]: We just don't fucking talk about it the same way.
28:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
28:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
28:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe that's it.
28:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:47
[SPEAKER_00]: We just got a start reshaping the conversation entirely.
28:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know entirely how to do it.
28:51
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm looking for someone who is of a certain age because I want the most amount of time loving on her and my children.
28:54
[SPEAKER_00]: That's actual thought.
28:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah
29:02
[SPEAKER_01]: So here's another generalization that I also think is somewhat true, is that women, you know, prioritize friendship more for the most part, not all women in romantic relationships or general, just in general, just like connection with other people is always at the forefront.
29:19
[SPEAKER_00]: There's so much more advanced in that regard, man, I say.
29:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like you're so smart.
29:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there's an SNL skit of like all these women bringing their boyfriend to the dog park to like the man park to basically like meet another guy.
29:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And I see it with like my boyfriend, my friend's boyfriend's like everyone.
29:37
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like I think there's it's not everyone, but it is there is a little bit of different emphasis.
29:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think part of is we have an outlet like we have the people to talk about this stuff with us.
29:47
[SPEAKER_01]: how to men start to one, either have those deeper combos if they do have that friend group, or how do they start to find people that they can talk to about this type of stuff?
29:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, we're talking about a diversity of experience and you're exposure to a diverse group of people.
30:02
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're hanging out in L.A. and you're, you know, going to yoga with me or something and we strike up a conversation after class, we're going to have some kind of, you know, right, it depends on who's around you and so if you're in a friend group who don't prioritize that and it's just about functional things, it's not about emotional depth or vulnerability or like, oh, fuck, I'm sad.
30:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you hang out?
30:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's go watch a movie together, guy friend.
30:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I can tell you, I have one sincere friend that I've had since seventh grade and he's a guy friend.
30:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And I could tell you, there is nothing more rewarding than having a friendship with other man, but it comes with great difficulty.
30:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I could tell you that for elder millennials and probably still, and it's not even that it's not a priority, it's just, we're still, this is our disadvantage brothers, if you're listening to this right now.
30:45
[SPEAKER_00]: This is our disadvantage that we need to take action to make up for the disadvantage that we don't have these priorities, because what happens is we then rely to heavily on our spouses or our partners or whatever for all that emotional goodness.
30:57
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you can also get that animation closeness from other guys to be great, how are they going to do it?
31:01
[SPEAKER_00]: How are they even going to know?
31:03
[SPEAKER_00]: How are they even going to know the missing out on it?
31:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Unless they're listening to your podcast right now.
31:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope everyone is listening to your podcast.
31:09
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like we could talk about this for another 10 hours about how there are these roles in dating that are so deeply ingrained in dating culture that it makes a hard for people to break out of the mold.
31:21
[SPEAKER_03]: The tropes that I speak of are the guy who's non-committal because he wants to be a natural for life.
31:27
[SPEAKER_03]: The girl that asks for a commitment after three dates, because her biological clock is ticking.
31:33
[SPEAKER_03]: The nice guy that never gets any girls because they're these fuckboys who are getting all the girls for them.
31:38
[SPEAKER_03]: These tropes that makes it really hard for men to break out of the shell and say, I actually am not that.
31:45
[SPEAKER_03]: Or actually, she's not that.
31:47
[SPEAKER_03]: I hear Guy Friends talking like this all the time.
31:50
[SPEAKER_03]: Back my partner and his friends talk it like this all the time.
31:53
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, she's just another one of those approaching 40s and, you know, her biological clock is ticking.
31:58
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, actually, no, your friend is the douchebag.
32:01
[SPEAKER_03]: who's leading her on to make her think that she is in a relationship, right?
32:06
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think it's almost the responsibility is on us, whether you're dating or not, to really call out the stereotypes that are so ingrained in us and say, no, that's not the role that he or she is falling into.
32:19
[SPEAKER_03]: In fact, here's a better way of looking at the situation.
32:23
[SPEAKER_03]: I hope we can all do that for our friends.
32:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope we could give people confidence to that like these are the skills or the traits that we would actually want because I think you know sometimes men feel like oh it's these you know the stereotypical stuff still and it's not like
32:41
[SPEAKER_01]: the vulnerability.
32:42
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not the EQ and all that stuff.
32:44
[SPEAKER_01]: But we've also heard before like Connor beat in, we've had him on our podcast.
32:48
[SPEAKER_01]: He does a lot of men's work.
32:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's made comments through his kind of research of like women's say they want the vulnerability, but then if they cry, they get turned off.
32:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Like how do we start to kind of show men?
33:00
[SPEAKER_01]: It's okay to be this way too.
33:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think we should start from a place understanding they were all confused.
33:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's a place of vulnerability, by the way, which is a beautiful place for emotional connection to begin.
33:11
[SPEAKER_00]: It's safe.
33:11
[SPEAKER_00]: We're all confused.
33:12
[SPEAKER_00]: We want, and if you just think about the gender thing, right, we want this.
33:16
[SPEAKER_00]: We want freedom independence.
33:17
[SPEAKER_00]: We want choice.
33:18
[SPEAKER_00]: We want emotional connection.
33:19
[SPEAKER_00]: We want, and we may want something different in different contexts.
33:24
[SPEAKER_00]: So let me use the sex as a, I'm a sex therapist in LA.
33:27
[SPEAKER_00]: We may want our partners to show up in a particular way if we're making a big decision about how we're going to spend the weekend or whatever summer.
33:35
[SPEAKER_00]: But in a bedroom or whatever, and sexually, we may want our partner to dominate us.
33:40
[SPEAKER_00]: So that could be confusing for a man, for instance.
33:45
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's not about the man's confused.
33:48
[SPEAKER_00]: It's we're all reshaping the norms and the rules so that we can have the kind of love that we want.
33:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Not so bad.
33:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And if we're communicating what we want from our partner, that's the only thing that matters really.
33:59
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I mean, I hope that that's the kind of love that I talk about because that's the kind of love I believe I have hope I feel like we're at an inflection point too that the fact that you're stirring should up for people is a good thing.
34:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that it can't just be that we're saying, okay, man, you don't have the skills like that's not really going to get us to where we want either.
34:18
[SPEAKER_01]: It's this place of understanding that I love this that we're all fucking confused like that is the best way to put it And you know, we might not have all the answers today, but like we're on this journey to figure it out like how can women Support men instead of just because what we see is oh, they did this.
34:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm out like it's just yeah
34:36
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no conversation, there's no benefit of the doubt, and I get it because we've been burned before.
34:41
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't want to fall for the fuck boy.
34:43
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't want to fall for the non-committal guy.
34:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Like all the tropes that UA was talking about earlier.
34:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Like how do we balance all this and help people out in dating?
34:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, at first of all, I think it's like up to each of us to show up as our best self in dating, right?
34:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So no one is responsible.
34:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the women are responsible and that's just saying, you know, saying this, but let me just make it clear that I think this, the women are not responsible to teach men and social skills.
35:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And so how they could be supportive is just, I think I understand what you're talking about in terms of, uh, this guy's out.
35:11
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I mean, like, maybe there's a little bit of a hiccup.
35:14
[SPEAKER_00]: in terms of responding to something that's sad or maybe not getting back in time or something, and that relationship is then foreclosed on, to soon.
35:23
[SPEAKER_00]: That definitely could happen if there's a history of insecure attachments, if there's a history of abuse of relationships, all those things.
35:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And when we make total sense that you would feel that way, my hope, my friends, is that you don't have to do anything.
35:35
[SPEAKER_00]: You just have to show up.
35:37
[SPEAKER_00]: as yourself and keep looking for those people that are as close to the matches you want to get now.
35:43
[SPEAKER_00]: If you listen to Indian matchmaker on Netflix, she says something like 60%.
35:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say 80%.
35:48
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?
35:49
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's because I'm hopeful, ladies and gentlemen, that I am going to find the person with my dreams.
35:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to create someone with them and I'm hopeful about that because I've got 50 years of research done looking at the suggest that there's amazing people one couple by the way, John and Julie Gorman, who just celebrated I think the 35th wedding anniversary that's John's third wife by the way, so John really, I know for a second, I like the third time.
36:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And he created a legacy of love with her, so that's hopeful for all of your listeners, hopefully.
36:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's definitely trends, you know, like there's a trend that sounds so horrible of like raising your boyfriends.
36:27
[SPEAKER_01]: That meant feel like instead of raising children.
36:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I just twitched.
36:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you see that?
36:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I know.
36:33
[SPEAKER_01]: But you're for a set of not tell like any of what they should ever do that.
36:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I think that might be the worst thing you could do What I'm hearing from you though, Greg is instead of focusing like how to support like how do you become The emotionally available communicative all the things and make this less gendered and then let the people that are there Like you'll start to be attracted to them and I I think like for me My partner I felt that way as soon as I met him, I'm like, okay, I see it because I know what I'm looking for at this point
37:03
[SPEAKER_01]: qualities go.
37:04
[SPEAKER_01]: You know like qualities I thought were really important because the reality is people aren't gonna meet everything like You know the stuff that doesn't matter ultimately like they're in the right social circle or they dress this way like things that ultimately don't matter So I do feel like yes, we can give people more of the benefit of the doubt But we also can maybe more just focus on becoming the person we want to date and then you know letting those people come up
37:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, because we are the trendsetters and women, ladies and gentlemen, if we fucking don't have a clue here, women everywhere in Iran and everywhere else are going to accept only what they're going to accept.
37:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And the choice is very simple in my mind because I love women.
37:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And as an individual man, I hope to be in a relationship with a woman one day.
37:45
[SPEAKER_00]: That I would love to just show up as myself, as the fierce fucking person I am, and my partner to show up as the fierce person she is, and then for us just to champion each other, right?
37:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Because now you're setting the trend yourself with the culture and the norms that you define in your own home.
38:00
[SPEAKER_00]: When we start thinking about that, what we have control over, you're going to be in a good position.
38:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's stressful that way.
38:05
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
38:06
[SPEAKER_03]: And it makes it a lot easier than teaching or raising or raising.
38:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
38:12
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely builds resentment.
38:15
[SPEAKER_03]: And then the person you're raising will become dependent on you for new skills, new knowledge, new learnings.
38:22
[SPEAKER_03]: So yes, we can only control our own culture and be the person we want to be and attract the people in our lives.
38:29
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's address the elephant in the room before we leave this conversation, the lonely single man out there.
38:36
[SPEAKER_03]: They read your article, they're listening to this episode, they're thinking, yep, Greg, you see me.
38:41
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm in this spot.
38:43
[SPEAKER_03]: Now what?
38:43
[SPEAKER_03]: How do I get out of this hell that I feel like a man?
38:46
[SPEAKER_00]: To be lonely is no joke.
38:49
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a deeply sad place to be, hopefully a transient thing like most emotional and mood periods.
38:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And the most important thing to recognize is do not start to identify with a label that I've been hearing, which suggests you will always be single and sell it.
39:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Would I think I just heard this in-sell?
39:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I heard this in-sell.
39:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, don't identify with some restrictive label that will lead you to a place of,
39:14
[SPEAKER_00]: more loneliness, more sadness, more disconnection.
39:18
[SPEAKER_00]: In this world we need to connection.
39:20
[SPEAKER_00]: We specially men need each other.
39:22
[SPEAKER_00]: We need to be connected to each other and beautiful, fucking ways and we need to build community.
39:27
[SPEAKER_00]: The way to do that is to seek out people who are maybe in a different situation than you are.
39:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there somebody in your community?
39:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there somebody in your school?
39:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there a classmate?
39:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there somebody who may be, they do okay.
39:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Why not introduce yourself to that person?
39:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Why not become friends?
39:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Why not maybe learn some of those skills just by hanging out with the person, like how to talk about stuff and when things are.
39:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And why not hang out with that person, tell them that you're fucking fearless at.
39:48
[SPEAKER_00]: That is how a growth is gonna happen is when you reckon as a whole shit, I'm a human being confused, like Dr. Greg and everyone else.
39:57
[SPEAKER_00]: How can I grow?
39:58
[SPEAKER_00]: What's available to me?
39:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's always an option for growth.
40:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't care where you are.
40:02
[SPEAKER_00]: There's always an option for growth.
40:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, this has been such a good conversation.
40:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I've so many takeaways.
40:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the biggest one is what we said earlier is that it's okay that we're just confused.
40:13
[SPEAKER_01]: We're trying to figure it out not to say that like having grace for others means that you should lower your standards, but just realize that we're all trying our best here.
40:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And instead of like call people in again, you know, like you need to do what works for you, but ultimately that just saying like this person isn't doing this or that, that's not really getting to the core of what we want either if we want a loving fulfilling relationship.
40:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Think what this conversation is doing is actually helping us rise to the best.
40:43
[SPEAKER_01]: The fact that we saw our past generations, their relationships, not being fulfilling, and we have a sense of what we're looking for, like that should be a good sign.
40:52
[SPEAKER_01]: The fact that your article ruffled some feathers actually means that we're holding people to hire standards, like you said an opportunity for us to grow and I hope rise to the top.
41:02
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's kind of the, I think ultimately what we're getting out of this, hopefully is a better dating environment, but we also need to be that person too.
41:11
[SPEAKER_01]: We can't just call people out for not doing it or not knowing.
41:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think we also need to reshape the priority of love in our lives, like we talked about earlier, how it's socialized, and it can be really hard if you have no good examples of love.
41:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I even know for myself, like, my relationship now, it's beyond what I ever even thought was possible because it wasn't the relationships I had when I was dating.
41:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's so easy to be like, dating is so painful, like, why even prioritize this?
41:38
[SPEAKER_01]: But how do you start to imagine the relationship you want?
41:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Pave your own path and, like, hold that standard, because I think that's ultimately the fire that we need to, like, seek help and get that growth.
41:50
[SPEAKER_00]: There's an amazing quote by Grace Lee Boggs, who said, we are the leaders we've been waiting for.
41:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
41:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's the case in our relationships.
41:59
[SPEAKER_00]: We are the ones we've been waiting for to set the new trend for the kind of emotional connection that we need.
42:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And if we do it now, ladies, we can figure it out.
42:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Fifty hundred years, it'll all be worked out.
42:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think this message is for both.
42:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I think women have at their advantage that we've been socialized this way that we have the support system.
42:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think we're a little ahead, absolutely.
42:20
[SPEAKER_01]: But I do think everyone can become more emotion.
42:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Like have a higher EQ in better communication.
42:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Like this is across the board.
42:27
[SPEAKER_00]: No reason not to.
42:28
[SPEAKER_00]: There's absolutely no reason.
42:30
[SPEAKER_01]: and definitely also just set you apart for other people.
42:33
[SPEAKER_01]: You could play if there's no batches here you go, right?
42:36
[SPEAKER_03]: Here's the thing though, even after reading your article, I would say something that really jumped out at me.
42:42
[SPEAKER_03]: My big takeaway is that this is a humanity issue and not just a single man issue.
42:50
[SPEAKER_03]: And for so long, I feel like we look at these issues in silo for that specific group.
42:56
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, women should work on that.
42:57
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, men should work on that.
42:59
[SPEAKER_03]: The gay community should work on that, black people should work on that.
43:03
[SPEAKER_03]: We're finally getting to a stage where we see, okay, we all need to do better for this group.
43:08
[SPEAKER_03]: So after reading this article and after this conversation, it makes sense that, yes, there exists more lonely single men out there.
43:16
[SPEAKER_03]: We as a society, as a community need to be better for them.
43:21
[SPEAKER_03]: We need to help each other and not just let them figure it out on their own.
43:26
[SPEAKER_03]: And this plays so much into dating because I know so many people out there like, well, then you to get their shit together.
43:32
[SPEAKER_03]: I've said that made men should get their shit together.
43:34
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not my problem.
43:35
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not here to teach them.
43:36
[SPEAKER_03]: Not here to be their mom.
43:38
[SPEAKER_03]: It is an our problem in terms of teaching, but it is our responsibility to also support and show empathy and really be there for each other.
43:48
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's kind of like my major takeaway from this is we all need to be part of the solution here.
43:54
[SPEAKER_03]: And the other takeaway I have is we got us around ourselves with the right people.
44:00
[SPEAKER_03]: If you keep surrounding ourselves who play into these stereotypes, these dating tropes, bad dating behavior, that's all we're going to see as a norm.
44:08
[SPEAKER_03]: Even if we don't feel like we don't belong there.
44:10
[SPEAKER_03]: But if we can surround ourselves with people that we, like you said, have a situation or feel like they have some stuff figured out.
44:18
[SPEAKER_03]: Nobody has their all their ship figured out.
44:20
[SPEAKER_03]: But as some of their ship figured out, let's put ourselves in their orbit.
44:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Go to yoga with Greg.
44:31
[SPEAKER_01]: He's there.
44:32
[SPEAKER_01]: She's there.
44:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And light and words.
44:35
[SPEAKER_01]: But there were so many times that we'd be like, this is a stereotype in men.
44:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, I'm not that way.
44:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Which means that a lot of people aren't.
44:41
[SPEAKER_01]: But the way that our society perceives it is a certain way.
44:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think for women, again, like you said, you a, like, it's not directly affecting us.
44:50
[SPEAKER_01]: But it is if that's who you're trying to date, then it is a fact.
44:54
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like,
44:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe the takeaway for women is how do you start to earn learn some of these tropes and look at the person as a human being?
45:01
[SPEAKER_03]: And stop fantasizing about the commune you're going to build with all your girlfriends, which is what I said at least five times in the last month.
45:09
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't need men.
45:10
[SPEAKER_03]: They're becoming obsolete.
45:11
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just going to be in a commune with all my girlfriends.
45:14
[SPEAKER_03]: Which sure that's could happen, but you truly want.
45:18
[SPEAKER_03]: But that's not what I truly know.
45:20
[SPEAKER_03]: I do.
45:20
[SPEAKER_03]: I do still want love with a man.
45:23
[SPEAKER_03]: So good to know, good to know.
45:26
[SPEAKER_00]: My face hurts because I'm smiling.
45:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you so much, Greg, we're so glad that we had you and we went deeper than the articles.
45:35
[SPEAKER_01]: This has been such a good conversation and I know hopefully inspiring, not scary for anyone that's feeling this way as a single man and then hopefully also uplifting in empathy based for anyone that's trying to date.
45:50
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you haven't done so yet, subscribe to the psychology of relationships today.
45:55
[SPEAKER_03]: So you don't miss an episode.
45:56
[SPEAKER_03]: Bye.