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Be A Great Leader: Put Growth Above Comfort · The Expert Method

• speaker-0: Leadership is not necessarily about having the most knowledge. It's being able to tap into the knowledge that others carry. It's not about having the answers, but about asking the right questions. We will become what we tolerate. Your performance is not just a reflection on you, but it's a reflection on me as well. I'm gonna put my own discomfort beneath your growth because I believe it's best for you and I believe it's necessary for the team. speaker-1: So what does together look like without turning every decision into a kind of democracy? speaker-0: So once we start to see that there's a gap, addressing that gap is the kindest thing we can do for that person and the people that they work with. speaker-1: I have a pretty good understanding of what I want from my team. I want them to speak up, I want them to solve problems, and I want them to take responsibility without waiting for me to have to tell them what to do. But I also know how easy it is for me to get in the way of that. I can hold back information, I can avoid the hard conversation, I can step in too quickly because it's just easier for me to do it myself. And over time, the people on my team stop acting like owners because I have taught them to wait. So, what has to change before people start taking real ownership? To help answer that question, I'm excited to be joined today by Joshua Block Josh is the former president of Block Imaging and the author of People Matter at Work. He helped lead the company through years of growth while building a culture around trust, feedback, and shared responsibility. In our conversation, we discussed what Josh learned when he became president at 29, why his biggest leadership mistakes all had names. How one on ones change the way people work and what leaders need to share if they want their team to act like owners. If you get value from this conversation, be sure to subscribe and share it with a friend. And now please enjoy my conversation with Joshua Block. Josh, thank you so much for being here. speaker-0: I'm glad to be here. Thanks, Ian. speaker-1: Absolutely. So Josh, before we get into the culture and ownership part of our conversation, can you take me back to the weekend where you found out that you were going to be going from sales rep to president at twenty nine years old? What do you remember about that moment? speaker-0: Yeah, it was 2011. Our family had just moved from Muncie, Indiana back to my hometown of Lansing, Michigan. ⁓ my dad had started a family business when he was 50. At the time, it was about a $30 million organization and ⁓ 40 or 50 people working at the time. And he sat down the family and he said that he was going to be stepping down as the president of Block Imaging and that he was going to be naming me. Interim and and eventually ⁓ president. And so it was from a Friday to a Monday and ⁓ it was definitely my ⁓ my moments and being thrown into the deep end, which at the time was terrifying, and yet looking back more than fifteen years later, it was really a gift in disguise. speaker-1: What makes you say that? Why was it a gift in disguise? speaker-0: Well, I think that in so many situations, leaders think they have to know everything. And in fact, we we take the most competent technician and we name them a leader. And the challenge is what got you here won't necessarily get you there and maybe even prohibit you from getting you there, right? Is that ⁓ leadership is not necessarily about having the most knowledge. It's being able to tap into the knowledge that others carry. It's not about having the answers, but about asking the right questions. And so just that idea of that it forced humility that what there there was no way to walk in and be like, this is where we're going, this is what we're doing. I know all this. And if I took on a scale and I put on one side everything I didn't know and the other side everything I did know, well, I had some capabilities. I had sold ⁓ imaging devices for the company for about five years leading up to becoming president. There was so much. I had never been to our Japan office, never seen our France warehouse. And and when it came to project management, HR accounting IT, I was woefully ill equipped and it just it felt like a disadvantage at the time and yet I think it actually served me in powerful ways that I didn't understand till much later. speaker-1: Yeah. And I can I love what you said there, that leadership is not about being the one who knows it all, but being the one who's able to kind of tap into the other people who do have that expertise, who are well equipped and being able to effectively, you know, the popular term is delegate effectively and just kind of lean on the other people on your team to do that effectively. But I can imagine and I'm maybe I'm just projecting my experience as early days of trying to lead other people, but I can imagine you didn't start out with that understanding and that recognition. Maybe you tried to come out of the gates like I am the guy, like putting on this posture of like I do have the answers, and it maybe took you a while to figure out that you needed to lean on the other people. speaker-0: You know, I knew from the get go that I was gonna need help. I mean, I I was I it was everybody knew that the transition was unexpected. Everybody knew that it was so fast. And so it was more natural to, hey, ⁓ I'm I'm gonna need help. ⁓ I'm gonna need you to provide exposure and to to teach me some things and to to come in as a student. And so there was Believe it or not, there really was no opportunity to come in and say, I'm the guy, I've got it figured out, I know the answers. And in fact, fifteen years later we have more than four hundred people. The it's the posture is still the same as that there are some things that I bring to bear, some capabilities and some strengths that I carry that are extraordinary, but there are all sorts of things that are being done in our organization, people who have roles and responsibilities I could never dream of. I think of parts repair in our business and stuff. stopping and and and testing and validating and all that goes into that that part side in the imaging world. Couldn't do it in a thousand years. And so it it still is fun all these years later to say, Hey, there's some things I'm good at and there are lots of things that others are good at. And humility is really having a clear understanding of those two things. speaker-1: Where do think that humility came from? speaker-0: You know, again, I would say I that in the book People Matter at Work, I say that it's it's the gift of humility, but I do think it was forced in some ways. It's ⁓ like I think of a a young child being thrown into the swimming pool. And sometimes that's what swim lessons look like. For some, it's you put on the water wings and you work down in the zero entry and you kind of do it slowly and gingerly, and you do it maybe five sessions in. There are other people who take ⁓ and throw ⁓ off the diving board, and this isn't a swim training. But I would say from a leadership training perspective, that's what my training looked like. And again, it was scary at the time. It was overwhelming. And there were all sorts of insecurities from how young I looked, how young I felt, what I didn't know. And also this idea of I had older brothers in the business. I didn't have a beard. I didn't have any gray hair. And so there is that like youthful insignificance or inferiority. And so overcoming that was challenging. But again, looking back that that type of swim training which was being thrown into the deep end unexpectedly, again, it really shaped me as a leader and in turn shaped our organization. speaker-1: Yeah. So humility was something that was required of you because you were just thrown into the deep end of this responsibility of this position, which I think is a great analogy where you can kind of imagine, you know, people learn how to swim many different ways. Some people are just thrown into the deep end, ⁓ and they have to figure it out in order to survive. Some people can kind of ease their way into it. Same thing with developing into leadership positions, right? Some people abruptly, like yourself, are gonna find themselves on a Monday, just here I am, I gotta figure it out, I gotta survive in this, I gotta make it work. Some people kind of slowly work their way up the ladder. and kind of ease their way into it a little bit more. Do you feel like there's a a right or wrong, a right or wrong there, like on the different paths and how to kind of build people up into those kind of positions? speaker-0: a little biased because of my story and and and how it was written, but I would say that I think in this generation where you have a lot of boomers, a lot of ⁓ founders who are looking at the next generation it through a critical lens. Hey, they don't do this or they they're entitled or they're lazy or whatever it is. And the longer you hold that perspective, the more natural it is to keep carrying the baton. The longer you carry the baton, the bigger the gap grows between you and the person you were going to hand the business to. And you're looking, you're going, wow, they're way behind. And it's like, sure, you're running faster, you're running further, you're gaining more experience that they aren't. And so the gap really grows. And so I I do think that there's a propensity to hold on too long, whether it's because you don't think the next person's ready or because your identity is wrapped up in being the founder or the leader of that company. And you can't imagine what life would be like without carrying that baton. speaker-1: Yeah. What would you say to the to the the founder who is maybe, you know, a little early or older and they feel like it might be time to start developing that leader, but they are kind of holding on tightly to that, you know, that identity piece, or maybe they're just they don't feel like anybody's there anybody there in the organization is ready for that succession plan. Like what would you say to that leader who's kind of holding on a little too tightly? speaker-0: Yeah, you you've got to find someone who is worthy of carrying the baton. And and that might start by running with both of you holding on to it at the same time. But they are if they are in your organization, it's crucial to start passing that baton or at least start running together with it. If they are not, I would highly encourage someone to start hiring, finding, bringing someone onto the team who can replace you because if you are the single point of failure. I mean, a lot of times entrepreneurship or people who are business leaders are are in pursuit of unique freedom. And what happens when there's no one who can do what you can do is it actually isn't freedom. It's a job. And so there's nothing wrong with that. But I would say that there is something paramount about finding someone who can fill the vacuum of leadership that you someday will leave behind so that you aren't a single point of failure in the business. speaker-1: Yep. Single points of failure are the things that kill businesses. And just like with anything, the more you put something off, the worse the problem becomes. Right. And figuring out who's going to be the next leader within your organization is a pretty important decision to make. So the longer you delay, the worse it's going to get. And then just because it's a problem that you don't feel like anybody's ready, it's still a problem that you have to solve, right? It's your responsibility then to get somebody ready to go and make it happen. Let's go back to the the f you know, first couple of months, the first year ⁓ for you in that leadership position, right? Becoming president of this organization at such a young age, kind of being thrust into this position. Most lessons learned are learned through mistakes and failures. So what do you feel like were some of those mistakes that you made early on? speaker-0: I had a a coach who asked me to write my 10 mistakes in in 10 years of being president at our family business. And all of them had names. And they were e they were all they were all personal decisions. They they weren't strategies. They weren't products. They weren't customer situations. They they really were someone who I hired that I shouldn't have hired, someone who we promoted that we shouldn't have promoted, someone who we didn't hire who we should have hired. Is they all had names. And so I think that's that's huge looking back. Is ⁓ most organizations I know, especially who are in pursuit of healthy culture, family, community oriented, they tolerate behavior or performance that they shouldn't, and they don't talk about it, and then they grow resentment. And then they either do nothing or get frustrated and what Patrick Lancioni calls the last act of cowardice to wake up some Tuesday morning and just fire someone unexpectedly. And so I think that what I what I would encourage people to do as leaders and looking back all these years, what I would encourage myself to have done is to highlight concerns, to actually acknowledge them, talk about them, hold people accountable to them. And ultimately the gap needs to be closed. It either needs to be closed through growth or through exiting the organization. And being more definitive in those moments, when I speak to organizations or to associations, and I say, How many of you have someone on your team that if you were to let them go tomorrow, in six months you'd be glad you did? And the team that works with that person would throw a mini party on their heads, 90% of the people raise their hand. And that's such an interesting thing. And I know there's HR challenges and and and restrictions and all of that. And it's important to to operate ⁓ properly and to honor people. I don't think growing ⁓ disenchanted and and being frustrated with people is best for them or for you. And so once we start to see that there's a gap, addressing that gap is the kindest thing we can do for that person and the people that they work with. speaker-1: they're gonna end up in a situation that they're mu they are a much better fit for, they're much happier in because, you know, those bad fits. I I mean I love what you said that all the mistakes that you made early on had names. Like that is such a good memorable line there because it's the same thing for me in my anecdotal small experience. Like most of the leadership mistakes that I made all had names as well. Right. It was the same thing. It was people that we hired that we shouldn't have, you know, and then you learn, okay, I need to hire on different criteria moving forward and then people that we ha kept on the team for longer. What do you think like why is there a resistance to making those people changes or addressing those issues, kind of having those hard conversations? Like why is there a resistance to that? Like what is what is that? speaker-0: So, I think ⁓ I think sometimes we're focused on short run performance and developing people's not a short run initiative. So I think that's part of it. ⁓ I think that we're uncomfortable with other people being uncomfortable. And so we we actually in instead of saying something that would be difficult for you to hear and it makes me uncomfortable, is ⁓ we just keep the peace. ⁓ you know what? I'll I'll try to figure it out. I'll try to do something differently. And of course leading Leading people is is so important in the way that we do it. But when there's a gap between where someone is from an approach, from an attitude, from an actions, behaviors, or performance perspective, and where we expect them to be, it's ⁓ so foundational and fundamental to to help close that gap. And a lot of times we just turn away from it, we avoid the conversation and we just hope it gets better on its own. speaker-1: Does it ever? speaker-0: ⁓ rarely. Yeah, I I I don't think I don't think closing your eyes and and putting your head in the sand is usually a way to solve a problem. speaker-1: Yeah, never. But, you know, would you see having those difficult con those uncomfortable conversations, right? And I think you can kind of play it up a little bit too much in your head. At least I know I have and I still do today, probably a bit too much. Like you have to just kind of give that direct feedback on some the like a shortcoming or the issues that you're experiencing or the feedback that you're receiving from the team. Like you need to be able to deliver that consistently. And it's just like, do you see that as just one of the responsibilities of the leader? Right. The leader is the standard bearer for all things in the organization, especially holding others to that standard. speaker-0: Yeah, they are they are setting the standard. And I I even think of Simon Sinek who talks about like the the encouragement sandwich. And Ian, you're doing such a great job. There is this one little thing you've done, but keep going. You're doing great. And versus just walking into a room and saying, Hey, Ian, I'd like to share some feedback with you. I'm concerned about the following. I really believe you have the capability to close the gap between where you are and where where I'd like to see you, but I really need you to commit to take responsibility or to focus on shaping the future versus getting stuck in the past or or to what whatever the behavior action or at attitude or attribute is is just to speak freely about it, born not out of critique and not because of perfection, but really because I believe that if you do this, it will benefit you and it will benefit the team and it will benefit the company. speaker-1: Yeah. I'd love to unpack that a little bit with you. So how would you advise somebody to navigate or come to a difficult conversation? Like have one of those difficult conversations where quote unquote difficult conversations where they have to give direct feedback. speaker-0: Yeah. I mean, ideally you're having consistent one in ones and ⁓ and giving feedback all the time. That we're building feedback muscles so that what what happens when you don't build muscles is when you give feedback, it's like lifting weights for the first time in three years, and you can't put a fork to your mouth for the next two weeks because it's become such a big lift. Versus if we have consistent feedback going back and forth and we've built those muscles, everything isn't seen as so heavy. When I give you feedback once a year, the person's like, wow, this must be huge because Josh has been winding up for 365 days before he gave this feedback. But when you're giving consistent feedback, whether it's in one on ones or scheduling a time with Ian and saying, Hey, tomorrow I'd like to sit down and talk about sales performance or or my concerns with this or that, whatever that concern is, and to walk in the room and just say, Hey, we're gonna have conversation where we're gonna talk about an opportunity for you to develop and grow. And you'll be surprised when you actually lay the groundwork, just like you would like it in reverse. If someone was giving you feedback, they'd like to say, hey, Ian, I'd like to, I'd like to talk to you about some things that I'm concerned about. And that allows the person to kind of know what's coming versus avoiding it and then waiting and then ultimately dropping it on someone like a wait. speaker-1: Yeah. So it becomes a lot easier once it just becomes a standard thing that ha happens in a consistent rhythm of the two way feedback, right? And something that I've learned, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I've found that anytime that you give direct feedback, make it a two way street. So after you deliver after I deliver my feedback to this individual, I always ask, like, what feedback do you have for me? How can I be better for you? Is that something that you found? Like kind of the two way street helps a little bit or no? speaker-0: If I'm asking for feedback every one on one, then we kind of have a culture of feedback versus, hey, I'm gonna give you some feedback, you give it to me now. I I'd rather focus ⁓ one at a time. It is is most common. Maybe in a performance assessment, it'd be different. But yeah, we're gonna focus entirely on you right now. But I have set ⁓ I've ideally built a bridge of trust that the person knows I'm sharing this because I believe it's best for you and I believe it's necessary for the team and because I ⁓ frankly, I'm gonna put my own discomfort beneath your growth that I'm leaning if you think that I just find great joy in telling you that you know you're disrespectful in meetings or something like that. There are a few people who have power play syndromes. But for the most part, I'm willing to elevate your growth above my own discomfort by leaning into a developmental conversation. speaker-1: Mm. That's so good. Right. And yeah, I feel like even articulating that would be very impactful. Just saying to the individual, Hey, I'm going to put your growth and maybe this is something that you just set like during the onboarding conversation with a new employee, right? You set that as the expectation that, Hey, here we're gonna put your growth ahead of our discomfort, right? So we're gonna be willing to have maybe what's considered uncomfortable conversations. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, if you if you think that I find joy in pointing out your your areas of growth, then then we've missed the mark. It's kinda I have a sixteen year old who turns seventeen tomorrow. And like if you think that I enjoy taking away your cell phone, we have missed the moon. Like not not even not even close. Not making it about us because it's not really about us, but ideally creating a safe path that this is about you and I do think about you. I do think about your success. I do think about the team's success. And by the way, your performance is not just a reflection on you, but it's a reflection on me as well. That when you tolerate terrible performance or when you tolerate toxic behaviors, you better believe that everybody who reports into you, everybody who's on that team is saying, well, if he or she can be that way, then obviously it's not that important to Josh. Or ⁓ I can, I must be, I must be totally a safe. And I I'm good because man, if they're tol we will become what we tolerate, but if we're willing to tolerate that, then we don't really gotta worry about anything around here. speaker-1: Yeah. You mentioned something earlier that hopefully you have built a bridge of trust, which is will enable a much more smoother conversation when you're giving that feedback to somebody. So how do you see like what goes into building a bridge of trust with the people with that you're leading? speaker-0: Yeah. I talk about and people matter, we're creating a culture where people feel safe, seen, and successful. But the bridge of trust for me is genuine care for the person beyond simply what they do for me in an in an organization. That in one on ones, that we build a a bridge of trust by asking them how they're doing and not just like how they're doing, like, ⁓ good, whatever. But but I ⁓ I was in a one on one, I think just yesterday and said, How you doing? And they were like, Good. And They said it on that way because th there was a a follow up question, right? But how are you really doing? And then we got talking and they've got they've got children at home this summer. And so there's all sorts of dynamics at play. Their schedule's kind of off because it's not during the school year. And it's like they got to share, I got to care, and we got to talk about more than just operational priorities. And I think that when we express that care, I care about you as a whole person. not just the things you do for this organization, I think goes a long way to building trust. speaker-1: Yeah, a hundred percent. And I would imagine that that would be very if you can establish that kind of relationship with the people on your team, I would imagine I don't have a ton of experience, but my assumption is that that would be very atypical for the people on your team. Like maybe other organizations that they've been a part of never even took the the person, the human side of who they are into consideration. They were just like a human there to perform a very specific function and that's all that's going to be evaluated of them. speaker-0: We don't have one on ones. We just simply I'm just gonna email you a list of priorities versus a one on one is step number one. And step number two is to is that the one on one, every one on one that I lead, which I have quite a few of them for for the people who report into me, this is their time. I think there are people who avoid having one on ones because they think they have to prepare a bunch for it. Rather, there's a book called The Coaching Habit, which has ⁓ six questions and this is their time. What's going on? What are you thinking about? What's getting in your way? How can I help? That this really is once we shift from us leading it to them leading it, we start to lead leaders versus lead followers, and we get to steer a rocket versus pushing a rope. speaker-1: Amazing. So we've talked about one on ones and the importance of one on one conversations a lot in this conversation. So what do you think makes for a great one on one conversation? Like do you have a pretty standard structure, format, kind of agenda for these one on one conversations? I would imagine it kind of varies based on, you know, leader, position, organization. But like what have you found makes for a great one on one conversation? speaker-0: Yeah, I I would say those six questions from the coaching habit are really powerful. And mine don't deviate a whole lot. Most one-on-ones that I have start with what's going on. That me mining and trying to get a sense for for an appropriate level of information from the person. What what's going on in their personal life, what's going on in their professional life, what's going well, what's not going well, what challenges are they facing, what are their priorities. And then to weigh in on those is that as we're talking, they're generally Asking for some help is that, hey, you just named 12 ideas. I think that that's more ideas than you can probably tackle at any given time. You see certain things and and not just in their actions, but in how their attitude, they're frustrated or they're they're they're struggling to they they're they're looking to agitate maybe more than they should be agitating, or they're looking to stabilize more than should be stabilized. And so might weigh into that. And then ultimately just ask, how can I help? What what can I do to support you in the next week or two? And so th that's usually what's going on is trying to get a finger on the pulse of how they're doing, get a finger on the pulse of what they're focused on, what challenges they're facing, what opportunities they're tackling, and then ⁓ end with how can I help? speaker-1: Amazing. And then is there like a specific rhythm that you took like for me, I would have bi weekly one on one meetings with everybody that reported to me at my marketing agency, but I would imagine it varies based on the organization. Is there anything you can speak to there? speaker-0: I would say that ⁓ bi weekly is probably a pretty normal time frame. Sometimes when there's someone who travels a whole lot, it can be like engineers and things like that in our organization, maybe every four weeks. The challenge with doing it less than bi-weekly is if you do it every four weeks and you miss one, that's a really long time. I mean you're eight weeks apart. If you miss two, then you're you're really not doing one on ones at that point. And so I think bi weekly, but I do have quite a few. seasons or times where someone's new to the organization or someone's going through a lot of transition or growth where we'll do every week. And obviously those can be slightly more abbreviated, but I would say that weekly or biweekly, and anyone who says, I have too many reports to do it weekly or bi weekly, I'd say that that's where we go back to the baton conversation is we are not creating leaders. If we have twelve, fourteen, eighteen, twenty two, thirty-two direct reports, And we're not having one on ones. What we're basically saying is the next leader down from me, or whatever you want call it, that they're so ill equipped to lead that it's actually better for me to not have one on ones with someone than to have someone who has more capacity to have one on ones, right? So like I'm not having one on ones, but there's nobody else who can lead these people. That's kind of a funny paradox to me. speaker-1: Yeah, for sure. I would imagine like yeah. speaker-0: Not so funny to live at, but funny cognitively. speaker-1: Right, absolutely. Funny in that it just doesn't really make any sense. ⁓ but yeah, I would imagine if you're in a situation where you have thirty direct reports, that's a signal that hey, there's a problem, like there's well, a problem that is an opportunity to create another leader to take the reins on leading a lot more of these people here. I think Patrick Lincioni, I forget exactly who it was, but you know, typically around like seven to eight. I don't th none of this is an exact science, but like seven to eight direct reports is pretty much the capacity of what somebody can realistically manage at a high level. I apologize if this is a bit redundant, but just to kind of underline this importance of one-on-ones conversations, because I know, again, I just read books and I try and do what books tell me to do. And I remember early on in my career starting the marketing agency, I read Patrick Lon Lincioni's Five Dysfunctions of a Team, The Advantage, read his other books, and he talked about the importance of one-on-one. So I'm like, all right, I'm just gonna do these things. And not really knowing what I was doing, probably not doing them as effectively as I could, but I immediately saw a huge impact in the engagement from the team, like consistently meeting deadlines, just our business started to grow. Right. Just I can't say it was exactly 100% just because of the one-on-one conversations, but there was something happening as a result of those one on one conversations that I don't think I could articulate as well as you could. But like just to underline everything that we've talked about, the importance of these conversations, direct intentional time with the people on your team. Like what is the value of having one on ones in your organization? speaker-0: Yeah, I think there's clarity and care. Those two things that I this time is for you. This isn't for me to just tell you what to do, but this is actually time to to make sure in extreme ownership, Jocko Willing talks about getting what you need, leading up the chain. And it's basically making it easy for people to lead up the chain to make sure that you can get what you need and I mean, I think the seven or eight number is a good number from a max perspective. And anyone who says I'm doing a phenomenal job leading 25 people, I'd say you might be managing them, but the number of people who are really giving the time, creating access, providing what the team needs, developing people in well into double digits, I suspect there's probably more going on than that person thinks or knows. speaker-1: Yeah. And leading somebody, I think, just to kind of double click on something that you said, leading somebody is so much more than just being the one in charge, right? Being the one that's delivering orders to somebody, right? It's your res you as the leader, from what I'm hearing from you. It sounds like leadership is more than that. It's more about developing this individual, kind of being there, being the one that's going to create space with and time to be with this individual, kind of heed their concerns, digest them, help them out. But development, I mean, is that kind of an accurate diagnosis? Like leadership is so much more than being in charge, it's more about X. speaker-0: Yeah, for sure. I mean, basic leadership is positional leadership, but there's so there's also relational leadership. And so I just say that managing, and again, people argue about the value leadership and management. And and is it ⁓ are they the same word? When I think of management, I think of operations, I think of checking boxes, I think of getting things done. When I think of leadership, I think of what you said development. I also think of vision, this idea of ⁓ the the the thing that separates someone who is leading. And someone who is just managing is that they have a vision, whether it's a vision for the team, whether it's a vision for the person, whether it's a vision for the company, whether it's a vision for the customer, that they are here, there is a there, and it's our job, it's our opportunity, responsibility, and privilege to move us from here to there. And that's really what takes us back to the one on ones. It's what takes us back to the seven or eight direct reports max, because I believe that I mean. That's the number of people that you can reasonably have vision for and ultimately accomplish things through them who then accomplish things through other people. speaker-1: Amazing. Yep. And you're gonna be the person that's gonna put their growth, their development ahead of your comfort. I love it. You had mentioned Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink, and that was one of those books that just completely changed my life and my whole perspective on my station and ⁓ the outcomes in my life and who is responsible for that. And something that I endeavored to do in the agency, I can't believe I can't say that I hundred percent did it. I just kind of repeated the idea a lot of times. But I can't imagine that I'm alone in saying that I wanted to build a culture of ownership across the whole team where everybody took extreme ownership over their responsibilities and the outcomes that they created within the organization. But what do you see has to be true within an organization in order to build a culture of ownership? speaker-0: Yeah, so we talked about when people feel safe, seen, and successful, those three things, ⁓ when we lead with the three T's that that allow the we cycle to turn, which again is the really premise of people matter at work is the shift from the me cycle to the we cycle over the course of leading for 15 years, growing from thirty million to more than two hundred million, really came to this understanding that there are three T's that are fundamental. Together thoughtful and transparent. When we do that, people feel safe, seen, and successful. And when we create that environment, that's where ownership takes root. That this isn't a company that you're leading and only benefits you, but this is something that I see myself here at this place has a huge impact on my life. And I don't treat it like a rental car. I treat it like something that we own together. speaker-1: Amazing. And how would you see a culture of ownership would show up? Like what does that actually tangibly look like with the people within your organization? Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. Ev everywhere. Have you been into a gas station bathroom, you know, where where someone who the difference between the way that the owner of of a place and the the renter or the tenant treats something. How do you how do they treat customers? ⁓ how do they how does someone who's an owner take risks, take responsibility? How hard do they work? How well do they communicate? There's just the the gap. between what you do when you own something and what you do when you perceivably rent something, ⁓ the the the long term perspective that you carry, yeah, it it's it's it's a it's I can't even think of the things that aren't impacted when you shift from someone who's renting to someone who's owning. speaker-1: Yeah. I mean every business is a people business. And when you have a culture of ownership, those people are going to, you know, own and take full responsibility of their respon of their responsibilities. It's going to show up and impact ev absolutely everything within your organization. So you talked about the three T's, but one that I was really curious about is what together. So what does together look like without turning every decision into a kind of democracy? speaker-0: I think on one side you have dictatorship and on the other you have democracy. And so what we're doing is we're not turning the decision over. We're refining the decision. So I'm not I'm not asking Ian to make the decision. I'm rather asking Ian to weigh in on the decision as an expert in a given space. So I'm not asking everyone. I'm not asking anyone. This is not a random endeavor. This is who is, if I had a question that came to me today, who is the person who Who the like when you think of who wants to be a millionaire from a hundred years ago, there was the phone a friend and that concept of like inside the organization or outside, who is the most knowledgeable person and getting them to or potentially have as an objective perspective. You're launching a new compensation plan or you're launching a new benefit structure or whatever it is, is walking it through either someone who's an expert. Or someone who can feel what it's like to be on the other side. The second T is thoughtful. So careful consideration for the needs of others. Who can I work together with to set me up to make a thoughtful decision, as opposed to launching a benefits or a compensation plan or whatever it is, and everybody going, What in where did this come from? This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of, versus rolling something out and and them going. Yeah, that makes sense. I understand. ⁓ they they have been transparent. They've explained why they're doing it this way, some of the reasons why they've made the changes. I can get on board. And my dream was from those early days and and all the way to today, that when we make a decision, people would look around and go, I'm not saying I agree with every single aspect of it, but I've never been in their shoes. And this seems like it this seems like it it went through a decent process to get here. And it makes a lot of sense. speaker-1: Yeah. I think again it was Lencioni who talks about this idea that people don't need to feel like they were the ones responsible for making the decision in order to buy into it. They just need to feel like their opinion, their ideas were heard. They were able to weigh in ⁓ on the decision in the process. speaker-0: Absolutely. speaker-1: Amazing. So I would love to get your feedback on this because this is something that I plan on continuing with ⁓ my current business that I'm working on. So with the marketing agency, right, every quarter we would set OKRs, right? Another one of those things we talked about before we started filming, how I kind of found Alex Ramosy and he just kind of became my guy early on. Same thing I read John Doer's Measure What Matters. So the OKR framework is the framework that I just rolled with for setting goals. But ⁓ one thing that we would do is we as my Business partner and I would work together to kind of craft what we thought would be the OKRs, the priorities for our business for the next quarter. And then we would bring the whole team together. We had a small team. We only built it up to be like 12 to 15 people at like our peak. But we would bring everybody together who was in person. And then we would have a full day blocked off where we would have like our tier two meeting where we just kind of go through, okay, let's reflect on the previous quarter. Here's what went well. Here's let's celebrate the wins. Here's the things that we're still struggling with. Here are the problems we're still facing. These, and then we would present. Here's what we believe to be the most important changes that we want to make in the business moving forward. Here's our plan for how we're going to do so. Here's everybody's responsibilities. And we would just kind of walk everything through with the team. Like we would be prepared. We wouldn't craft it there that day, but we would be prepared, present it to the team, get everybody's feedback. And oftentimes in those conversations, we would end with a much better version of the OKRs and the plan that we had going into it. So is that kind of a I guess is that a good idea? speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, if it works, it's it's a good idea. But for me, I tend to be focused on the vision side. Is this where we're going as an organization? And that might be monetary, that might be operations, that might be culture, is like setting the vision and then you guys designing the OKR. And that that didn't start that way. In the earlier stages, like I was more hands-on into the nitty-gritty of of of departmental decisions and KPIs. Now Like we're we're looking to strengthen our service operation and the way that we deliver ⁓ service to healthcare providers around the world. And so like some of our goals, whether it be parts quality or whether it be service response or whether it be customer engagement, we're going to the moon from an Elon Musk perspective. Like this is where we're going. And for me, I look to the team who it today, as we've grown and grown and grown. you eventually get to a place where you have experts in every area. Is when you're smaller, you tend to wear a lot of hats. And that does require you to carry more responsibility at at various altitudes. But as you grow as an organization, you have experts and I I've tended to over the last six or seven years to say like this is where we're going and look to them to tell me how we're going to get there. speaker-1: Nice. Yeah. And I think that's a pretty common thread when you read about the stories of businesses as they've as they've kind of grown through their life cycle. I feel like the one characteristic that needs to be or the responsibility that needs to stay with the leader is the casting of that vision. Right. You're casting the vision, this is where we're going. And then you build a team of operators that are able to take that vision that you cast and turn it in like turn it into a plan that will then make it reality and then go and execute that plan. And lead the team throughout that ⁓ that journey. speaker-0: Absolutely. speaker-1: Amazing. So another thing, final couple of questions for you here, Josh. Thank you again so much for the time. But ⁓ another one of those T's, but you talked about the idea that transparency is the picture of trust. So another thing that my business partner and I struggled with was kind of this idea of like, should we talk about the numbers, like how much we're making and like where we're at like financially and things like that. But what kinds of information do leaders often hold back that they probably should be sharing with their team? speaker-0: Yeah, I I think that people are holding back all sorts of things. Is that rather than starting with like what can we share? They start with like what w should we absolutely share? So they start with this minimalistic perspective, like what do people absolutely need to know rather than what do we absolutely need to protect, right? As ⁓ healthcare information or performance information, like individual performance or or ⁓ you know, legal stuff, right? Other than a few owner's box and and And confidentiality and that sort of stuff, we just shared openly and that that everything from net income and and our performance year to date and compared to to last year, compared to targets. And then the other piece is like, what is the leader thinking about? What's going on? And so for us, we've had a lot of young people start in the industry, start in our organization. And so there are three questions I talk about in the book that people are looking for answers to. What's going on? For the leader to sense make for them to say, we're seeing this happen in the industry, or we're seeing this happen in the marketplace, or we're finding this challenge with the products we're delivering, or whatever it is. And then what's going on? What's the leader thinking about? Because of these things, I'm concerned about, or I'm excited about, or I'm looking forward to, or I'd like us to grow in the following. And then the last question is, what's the leader thinking about them? is what's the leader thinking about the team or a specific team member from an individual feedback perspective? And so when we answer those three questions, just being open and honest, even when we don't have the answers, I think goes a really long way to empowering people and to building trust. speaker-1: Yeah. And I think it just plays into that same idea where the more transparent you are, like a if you're as transparent as you can be without releasing that confidential information that you can't share, it again just makes people feel like they're a part of the process of making the decision. ⁓ and they're just like nothing's being held back. speaker-0: And and I I totally agree with nothing's being held back. And I also think it builds I think that builds connection. We have someone in our organization who leads people and they're going through a fertility journey, right? So they they're they're going through in vitro and so they're they're in pursuit of of having children and a family and and so like man, when you when you tell people that. You know, and I'm not saying to share more than you want to share. This isn't about this isn't about the avoidance of confidentiality or just throwing up all over people, but when you share that, there is this connection. You can you can empathize with what it's like to go through all of the difficulties with implantation and and the ups and downs and the pregnancy tests and and the excitement and the disappointment and all of that. And so like I think a lot of leaders just put on the shell and they just like work keep work at work. And it's like, well, your people aren't keeping home at home or work at work. Like we are whole people. And so I do think even some level of personal, we have a 17 year old. So we're navigating some life stuff as he gets ready to think about where he's going to attend college. And when you talk to team members about what your family's facing is whether they have children older and have already gone through it or younger and want to learn from it, I just think there's some bonding that happens when you talk about the real things that are going on in your life. speaker-1: Yep. Your business is made up of people and people are people and people matter at work. So Josh, before I get to my final question, ⁓ it's a recurring question that I ask every guest. How can people get in touch with you? speaker-0: Yeah, so they can ⁓ reach out to Josh at People Matter at Work. You can find me at PeopleMatter at Work dot com and then they can pick up a copy of People Matter at Work on Amazon or the audible release just happened a couple of weeks ago. So the audio book for People Matter at Work is official. speaker-1: Congratulations, that's exciting. We'll have the links to everything in the description or the show notes wherever you're listening to this podcast. But Josh, my final question for you is a recurring question I ask every guest. But if you had a giant billboard that everyone in the world could see for ten seconds, what would it say and why? speaker-0: People are a gift. Work is a privilege and leadership is the expression or embodiment of those two realities. Maybe a little long billboard. My second billboard. I know you didn't ask me for a second. People are worth it every single time. speaker-1: Yeah, I like it. People are worth it every single time. Amazing. And people are all we got, right? Like it's just it's just us here trying to figure it out, trying to do whatever we want to do. It's people serving people. That's something that I've trying to figure out how to articulate more clearly. But like every business is a people business run by people, built to serve people. It's a really fascinating thing. But Josh, thank you so much for the time. speaker-0: Thanks for having me. It's great to be with you, Ian. speaker-1: Thank you for listening. The main thing I'm taking away from my conversation with Joshua is that I cannot say that I care about the growth of the people on my team if I keep avoiding the hard conversations. It is easy to say I want people to take ownership. It is easy to say that I want a strong culture. But if I see a problem and I keep putting off the conversation, I am teaching the team that that standard does not really matter. The longer I wait, the more frustration builds. The other person keeps working without clear feedback and everyone else sees the issue continue. If I want People to grow on my team. I have to be willing to say what needs to be said and put their growth ahead of my comfort. If you want to get connected with Josh Block, you can find his website and his book, People Matter at Work, in the description of this episode. And if you're an author or run a coaching program or course and you want to make it easier for your clients to get results, download the free program execution system toolkit in the description. It shows you how to install what I call execution infrastructure so clients actually follow through and get results. Thank you for listening, and I'll see you in the next one.