Latest / ADHD with Confidence | Overcome Anxiety & Self-Doubt, Christian ADHD Coach, ADHD in Women / 183 // ADHD, Dopamine and the Sympathetic Nervous System, with Kathleen Johnson

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183 // ADHD, Dopamine and the Sympathetic Nervous System, with Kathleen Johnson · ADHD with Confidence | Overcome Anxiety & Self-Doubt, Christian ADHD Coach, ADHD in Women

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All right, let's get started into today's episode.
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Hey friends, welcome to the ADHD with Confidence podcast. I'm your host,
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Kelsey, and today I'm joined by Kathleen Johnson.
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She is a board certified psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner.
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Now, that's a bit of a mouthful, but she has so much to offer with us today
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talking about things like ADHD, autism, executive functioning,
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and how ADHD and trauma are connected. So, Kathleen, welcome to the show.
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Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. Me too.
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We were talking earlier about the fact that there are just so many different
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topics that we could cover.
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And so hopefully we can pack it all into this episode. And if not,
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we'll just have to have you back another time. So start us off by telling us,
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what are your connections personally and professionally with ADHD? Exhaustive.
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So you can say exhausting. No, that too. That too. No, my—so I was adopted,
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and so I was raised by people I was not related to, and that was a blessing for me.
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However, I was a very hyper chatty Cathy and my name is appropriate, right?
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And when I had my first son, I was young. I was 19 when I had him and I hadn't
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been around many children up until then.
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And he was, from the time he came out of the womb, driven by a motor.
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He was so exhausting, but he slept good. So that was my saving grace.
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And when we got to about five years old, I was in the pediatrician's office.
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And this is back in the late 90s. He's 33 now. And I got a pamphlet sent home with me about ADHD.
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And I don't know that I asked any questions, but I think the pediatrician observed.
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And so I brought it home and my father happened to be at my house.
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And I said, I was reading through this pamphlet that the pediatrician gave me.
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And it doesn't it sounds so much like my son. And he looks at it and he reads
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through it and he goes, no, this sounds like you.
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So that was the first that I had ever even, you know, heard or thought about it.
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And then subsequently, well, he was diagnosed at five. And then I had another
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son who was diagnosed very early, but it looked different. So it was very interesting.
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I remember my second one was not as hyper.
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So I almost thought he was lethargic in comparison.
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So that was an interesting difference. And then I had my third son.
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And so they're my oldest and my youngest are seven years apart.
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And we were collecting diagnoses. So it was ADHD.
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And then one, you know, had anxiety. And then that same one was,
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you know, labeled as oppositional defiance.
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And, you know, just one thing after another.
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And they all have ADHD.
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I have ADHD. And then around my middle son was about 12.
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When none of the diagnoses seemed to capture what was really going on for him.
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And as a mom, I was, you know, going to leave no stone unturned.
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And he was then diagnosed by the Children's Hospital in our town with autism, with Asperger's.
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Back then, it's not a diagnosis anymore, but it falls under the spectrum.
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And when he was diagnosed, our oldest was 17. And I remember going,
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oh, my gosh, this is what our oldest was dealing with.
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And then I went, oh my gosh, this is me.
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So, my two oldest sons and myself have that blend.
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And then my youngest just probably, I don't know.
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He definitely has ADHD, but we don't know. That's fair. It takes time to figure that out, too.
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I'm curious, what happened for you and your kids getting these diagnoses?
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What was that like? What did that change for you? Well, you know,
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interestingly enough, I think when someone is seen and recognized for the struggle
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that they're going through, it's not about the diagnosis or the label.
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It's really about the recognition of there's nothing wrong with you. There's a difference.
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And in that difference, there's a superpower.
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However, in the neurotypical world, it's seen as a deficit and it's not.
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But we're living in deficits quite often.
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We end up living in that place until we find our superpower.
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And then when we do, forget it, it's game on.
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We're going to soar. Yeah. I love how you say that too. And I've been telling
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people about Dr. Jenny Byrne's book, ADHD and Professionals.
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And listeners and myself included, have found it so validating.
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So she is neurotypical, but she has done extensive research on the brain and memory.
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And she talks about the fact that just from a factual perspective,
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not from a bias of any kind, that an ADHD brain is just another type of brain.
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It's not a deficit. It's not a disorder.
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And the fact that we do a disservice by trying to squash the ADHD traits instead
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of saying, hey, we have different physiology.
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We are different. Everybody is different. And in other ways, we are okay with that.
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Whereas with this, often there's still that stigma and that idea of fixing.
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And so that's here on this podcast. We try to get away from that.
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And we're saying, how can you
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thrive? Because regardless of what you've heard, you are not made wrong.
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So I agree, feeling seen can make such a difference.
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So lots of things that I wanna ask you about today. The first one is a really
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big one, and I've had this question for a long time.
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Are there connections between trauma and ADHD?
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And what are those? I know I've heard over the years, a trauma brain and an
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ADHD brain are similar in different regions of the brain.
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Or I've heard some people say the trauma causes the ADHD. I've heard so many
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different things. So can you let us know what are the connections?
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So what I, so this is my opinion. This is what I see in practice, and this is how I view it.
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Quite often, trauma goes hand in hand with neurodivergence, ADHD and or autism, or both.
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And the reason I believe is because of our different thinking.
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We view what happened to us differently.
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So when I do emails, I'm a neurodivergence specialist. However,
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I have many different people that come through the practice.
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So it's not that I only see neurodivergent people.
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But across the board, what I notice is that when something happens in someone's
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life, there's a black and white thought process as to what that was.
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And then when we, I don't want to say perseverate, but that's the best term.
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When we think about it and rethink about it, we almost re-traumatize ourself,
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because of the way we think about it.
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And so where is a neurotypical can chalk it up to that person being a jerk or
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that, you know what I mean? Like they can brush it off.
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The neurodivergent person, who I believe has been othered so much in their life,
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takes it on as if something's wrong with them and they make it mean things.
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And so I think it's the things that we make it mean.
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That then end up affecting us. And I would really like to go into this explanation a little bit.
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So the fight or flight system is activated within this.
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Okay. So you've got, I always use this illustration with patients.
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So I say, okay, we're walking through the park. This represents our nervous
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system. Okay. We're chill. We're relaxed.
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If we were to see a bear, instantly glutamate floods our system.
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It's a neurotransmitter.
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It sends messages throughout the body and brain that there's a danger.
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The blood drains from the brain, making it harder to think.
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The GI tract stops because you don't need to digest food if you're about to
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die, right? It's conservation.
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All of our energy goes into our muscles to support us to run to safety,
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and our heart rate goes up to support that.
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So it's an emergency setting. Our brains don't like to be in this.
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Our body doesn't like to be this for long. So as soon as there's a break in
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the action, our nervous system opens up and collects as much data as it can
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because, and that's that hypervigilance. It becomes, you know,
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hypervigilant. Where's the bear? Where's the bear?
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If it doesn't see the bear, then this excess glutamate converts back to GABA.
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And GABA is the inhibitory neurotransmitter. And it sends the messages back
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through the body and brain. Danger's over.
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Blood goes back to the brain. The GI tract starts back up. Energy relaxes from
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the muscles. Heart rate comes down.
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But in the case of neurodegenerative, a lot of times it's not a bear.
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It's a classmate or it's a sibling or it's a parent that we,
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because we're very sensitive a lot of times, that accompanies it.
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So what ends up happening is we flood our system with glutamate and our bodies
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are trying get out of that as soon as possible.
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But the problem is that a parent or a classmate or a sibling is not supposed
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to be a predator. So it doesn't know how to get out of it. So we walk around
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in this state of high glutamate, low GABA.
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And many of us, because we're sensitive to our environment, we're walking around
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wide open, wide, more wide open than normal.
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And so as a result of that, we're taking in all this data, which feels overwhelming, exhausting.
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And a lot of times is what leads to that burnout.
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Because we are taking in so much data trying to get out of that place.
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Yeah. Can I just clarify something? So talking about trauma,
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I know there can be different kind of definitions and what I'm hearing you say right now.
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So I just want people who are listening not to feel like if they experience
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some sort of abuse in the past or trauma in the past, that that's not their fault.
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And that it's not about them, you know, perceiving it or receiving it or processing
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it wrong. But that's separate from what you're discussing right now.
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Is that correct? Yes. Thank you so much.
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I apologize. for not, you know, creating that distinction. Trauma can be everything
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from walking into the sixth grade on the first day and all the friends that
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were your friends in fifth grade are no longer your friends and you don't know why.
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Trauma can be an accident in a car.
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Trauma can be something catastrophic and absolutely horrible.
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Trauma is what we make it. In nursing, we always say pain is what the person
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says it is. Well, trauma is what the person says it is too.
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Okay, that's helpful. Yeah, just because looking at, I think they're the way
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that those of us who are neurodivergent, who have ADHD, we often process things.
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And like you said, we often put the blame on ourselves, we must have done something
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wrong, we've been othered. And so we can often process.
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Blame that on ourselves. So I just wanted to make sure there was that distinction
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of understanding that this is how we're wired to understand that sometimes our
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nervous system will be in that fight or flight more often because of the way,
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that we're made, not that we're doing something incorrectly,
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but that it can truly feel traumatizing when somebody says or does something
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that we can then internalize that.
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Yes, absolutely. Okay, that's very helpful to know.
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So as far as how that affects the nervous system and nervous system overload,
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are those connected then for why people with ADHD or neurodivergence often get
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a nervous system overload?
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I believe it is. I mean, because we process so much so fast.
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A lot of us are very fast processors.
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A lot of us are external processors. So we're talking, we're moving fast,
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we're thinking fast. We've got, you know, 20 tabs open in our brain at all times. That's exhausting.
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We don't, you know, and then on top of it, our phones, notifications,
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the scroll every, you know, seven seconds, 20 seconds, we're getting a dopamine hit.
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The way our world is set up, I feel like, in my opinion, ADHD neurodivergence
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is a human adaptation to what's going on.
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And so, you know, some of the greatest thinkers and inventors are ADHD or we're
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suspected to have neurodivergence in some way, shape or form.
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So I think that.
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We have to be very intentional with creating space, less density in our day,
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because otherwise we can go into that what they call that neurodivergent burnout. out.
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And I'm using neurodivergent as a term for both ADHD and autism.
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Either or or both. It really is all-encompassing.
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It is all under the same spectrum. And frequently, very few people with ADHD,
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do not see autistic traits.
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And sometimes people who are not diagnosed earlier in life, that's the reason.
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Because the autistic traits of organization, order, routine,
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masks, the deficits, some of the perceived deficits of ADHD.
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And so then all of a sudden you don't meet criteria, that DSM criteria,
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but you're still, and then you feel gaslit.
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Because then you're like, well, I know something's harder for me than it is
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for, you know, my my cohort.
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But then but then you're told you don't be criteria. Nothing's wrong with you.
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Nothing's different with you. But you're like, I'm different.
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I know I'm different. And that's OK.
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But darn it. Somebody acknowledge it.
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Absolutely. Yeah, that's so frustrating when people have still kind of those
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stereotypes or the stigma or they have a list of criteria as if that's going to understand.
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I mean, that saying when you've met one person with ADHD, you've met one person with ADHD.
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We're not all the same. We're going to have a different, you know,
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mixture of things that show up at the table.
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And I know even for me, when I got diagnosed, my mom had said to me when I was
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looking into it, well, you can't possibly have that because you did well in school,
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you know, and it felt so frustrating and so dismissive of saying,
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yes, but I'm struggling in these areas.
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And I think this, this might explain a lot, you know, and so fortunately I did
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still pursue it, but I think that can cause a lot of damage when there is anxiety.
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That dismissive response to people. It's because people don't see the cost.
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Because so many times we are high-functioning and we, you know, we're so capable.
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There's such a cost to being able to get those grades or to get the promotion
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or to do well in that, you know, in that role.
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And that That is the part that slowly eats away at your capacity.
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Or even the understanding when you're talking about that, looking back,
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I did well in the courses that I cared about.
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I don't know if you have this, but we have a course called Calm,
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Career and Life Management that you have to take in order to graduate. And it's so boring.
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And so I think I did mine by correspondence and I did horribly in it.
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I just did enough to pass. I didn't even finish the requirements.
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And yet in the courses I loved, but that's how we are, right?
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We're interest-based. When we're motivated, we're interested in something, we can focus on it.
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But our hours and nothing, everything goes away. We can, I call it hyper-focusing.
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But yeah, you can go down a rabbit hole and you'll know that material better than most.
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Yeah, exactly. And then you don't know how to pay a bill. Yeah,
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yeah. Not that we don't know how, it's just so hard. No, I'm not.
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But you know what I mean? Like, you know, the light things like making sure
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that your clothes are clean for, you know, I mean, that's not obviously as I've
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gotten older, I've gotten better, but the laundry piles that used to come out.
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Yeah. Oh, worse. I've realized worse than the laundry piles is when you get
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a stain on a piece of clothing.
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That one is just like, it's like a little green gremlin. I'm like,
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I cannot, I will just throw out the piece of clothing and get a different one.
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Anyway, coming back to our topic. So you had mentioned about when we go,
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you know, if we're overwhelmed, we go on our phone, we get these dopamine hits.
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I've been kind of curious. So I've realized for me, I can't go on my phone at all.
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I have, there's no, there's no willpower. There's no winning.
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And I've realized that over and over again, I put it out of sight,
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out of sight, out of mind, and then I do so much better.
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What happens in our system when we get those kind of artificial dopamine hits
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from something like a phone?
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Yeah, well, this I like to parallel to medication. People understand addiction, okay?
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And so I'm going to parallel it and I'll bring it back.
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I'll bring it back home. So when we drink alcohol, and we actually,
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I can use that GABA glutamate. Okay, so we have high glutamate.
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We drink alcohol. It hits a GABA receptor. It neutralizes the effect of the high glutamate.
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Then it falls off the receptor, and then we're back to square one.
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So people, that's a strategy, right? Every night in the evening,
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you know, you come home from work, and you have a glass of wine,
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or you have a beer to relax.
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If we continue to do this, our bodies will upregulate.
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And it'll create more receptors. Because if you're flooding your receptors,
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Then it says, oh, I must create some more of these. And so it creates more receptors.
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And then the same amount of, you know, that one glass of wine turns into two. Okay.
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And it reinforces the behavior. Okay. Same with opioids.
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When something hits a receptor very hard and fast and provides relief,
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that is, your body will upregulate, make more receptors.
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So that's one thing that happens is that that's why, you know,
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20 minutes used to do us good and now it's two hours.
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The next thing you know, you're on your phone for two hours and you feel worse.
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Why do you feel worse? Just like someone who ends up using alcohol repeatedly,
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when it wears off, you do feel worse because, you know, now you have more receptors.
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So the fall is further, okay?
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When we're hitting that dopamine with, when we're low on dopamine and we get
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that artificial high from, it's not an earned high.
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Running a race and finishing, the finish line, goes so much further than watching
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someone on your phone do it, right?
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You have that second and then it's gone and then you're looking for that next one. So.
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It's a chemical process in our brain that we're doing ourselves a disservice
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in my book. So I wrote a book called Escaping the Chaos.
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And in my book, I have a dopamine reset, disconnecting from all that for 48 hours.
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And then seeing how you feel to kind of reset all of those dopamine receptors.
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It's no different than if you're drinking wine every night, every night,
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every night, and then you go on a break and you come back and maybe it used
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to take two glasses and normally takes one again.
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So there is that opportunity to reset, though.
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Yes, there is. When we've done it more in a natural way, when I say natural
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way, with a phone or, you know, with different types of social media engagement.
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The bigger the high, the more difficult it is to reset those receptors and the longer it takes.
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So I've seen, you know, in my practice, neurodivergence is one specialty, addiction is another.
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And so a lot of times I'll see someone who has maybe used nicotine vapes,
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they're very popular right now, or, you know, some different chemicals from
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different smoke shops and things like that that,
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hit the brain very hard and fast.
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And if they do that constantly, it could take 18 months to reset those to get that natural high.
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And then on top of that, I do a DNA evaluation on the mutations and SNPs.
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I have a tool that can take raw DNA and look.
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And sometimes in ADHD or in neurodivergence, we have common...
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Mutations, SNPs in our DNA that for some people, you know,
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you'll see, especially in ADHD, you'll see that need for speed or that risk-taking,
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you know, that they have to go above and beyond to get that same satisfaction
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out of things. And I've seen that in the DNA.
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There's a SNP that actually connects to dopamine receptors.
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And so it's biologically, you're kind of hardwired for it.
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Yeah when you when you talk about that need for speed i would my friend has
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a porsche and i got to go for a ride in that the other day and it was,
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terrifying and thrilling and i felt like i felt like my system was overloaded with these
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neurotransmitters like i literally felt sick to my stomach because of it but
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then after for a couple days after i noticed i was driving my vehicle faster
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which it's a minivan it's ridiculous.
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Definitely not looking cool in that you know so But I just, I felt that,
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that effect so strongly from that because it was just such a quick dose of those neurotransmitters.
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And then, yeah, you kind of, that, that crash after. I was curious when you
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talked about artificial sources of dopamine, what would be a way to naturally
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increase dopamine in a healthy way?
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And so, you know, nature, you know, singing at the top of your lungs in your car, right?
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A song, petting an animal, you know,
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you get some oxytocin, but there's definitely, when you raise one neurotransmitter,
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they all kind of follow, you know, and so you can't do one without the other.
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But I will say, and I have to just say this, when you numb from something that's
24:02
been painful, you can't numb the bad without numbing the good.
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So that is so important for people to understand is that when you've had something
24:12
where you're trying to just dissociate from the moment because it's too difficult.
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To face or even just to feel, you're just not in the mood.
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I don't want to feel, I don't want to deal, I don't want to feel,
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you will then numb your good, too.
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So that's kind of like a side note. But standing in the sun,
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you know, there's been some evidence to show connecting with,
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you know, with nature, but like the trees.
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You know, we joke about tree hugging, but there's something biological that
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happens when we touch nature with our feet or our hands or what have you.
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Playing with our children, rolling around on the floor. You know,
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one thing I saw recently, I was at a restaurant, and there were four generations sitting at a table.
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And three of the generations had devices in their hand, and the oldest of that
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was sitting there without a device and just watching everyone on a device.
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And it's such a missed opportunity, right? We're dissociating from our lives.
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Because the way our nervous systems are overloaded and then we don't even realize
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that we're working against ourselves.
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And I think that's the thing. I have so much compassion for it,
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too, and especially for those of us with ADHD, low baseline levels of dopamine,
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is I often notice I will reach for my phone.
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When I'm feeling lonely, when I'm feeling low, and I want something.
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And I feel it. I feel it in my body, that craving for something to make me feel
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better. But you're right, it never works. I never feel better.
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It usually, I mean, if I start the day on my phone, it is going to be a worse
25:54
day for me because I've already had that spike in that crash.
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And then I'm more agitated. I snap at my kids and then I feel bad about that.
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And it's just this vicious cycle that can be so hard to get out of.
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I wanted to clarify, when you said you numb the negative, the bad feelings because
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you just don't want to deal with them, you end up numbing the good.
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Does that just happen in that instance, that moment when you're doing that?
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Or does that inhibit your ability to receive the good in the future as well?
26:27
Yeah, it inhibits it. So it affects everything. thing. Just like you say,
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when I start my day with a phone, you might not be on the phone in the middle
26:37
of the day, but you're irritable or you're snappy or you're shorter-tempered.
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Just like when the ADHD starts the day with protein, the first thing that hits
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the brain should be protein.
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If it's a carbohydrate, it sets that brain up for blood sugar dysregulation.
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So there's certain things that we do when we numb that, when we numb the feelings
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that we don't want to feel, we can't reach the feelings that we do.
27:04
Mm hmm. That's interesting to note that it goes with you moving forward as well.
27:10
There's so much more to this. But I also wanted to get into,
27:13
you had mentioned before executive functioning challenges that we have.
27:17
Can you help us understand?
27:20
I know ADHD is often talked about as, you know, an executive functioning disorder,
27:25
whatever you want to call it.
27:27
Where is that coming from? What's what's going on in that? And is this something
27:33
that we need to circumvent and find our own way? Or is this something about
27:37
regulating our nervous system? What are the connections?
27:41
Well, remember when I said when we go into fight or flight, the blood drains from our brain?
27:46
So that's how the nervous system regulation. I mean, when you don't have blood
27:49
to the brain, you can't think.
27:51
So there are certain things that can make it worse.
27:55
Okay. Because when we're in an anxious state, we can't think.
28:00
When we're in an overloaded, tired state, we can't think.
28:05
When we're in fight or flight, we can't think. So the first thing is let's get
28:10
to optimal before we figure out really truly where the ends aren't meeting.
28:18
Because for some of us, the ends would meet so much better if we could just
28:23
regulate our systems, get the proper rest, hydrate, proper nutrition,
28:27
letting protein hit the brain first.
28:31
Doing all the things that is so hard to do, right? For us with ADHD,
28:37
just feeding ourselves.
28:39
You know, because we're not, we may not get the hunger signals.
28:42
And then when we finally do, we're going to eat whatever's in front of us.
28:45
And it's usually not going to support better brain health.
28:48
It's going to then take us in the opposite direction. But, you know,
28:52
so slowing everything down a little bit can last, you know, it's a better slow
29:00
burn. It's like eating a simple carb versus a complex carb, right?
29:04
That complex carb is going to really get us further than the simple carb.
29:08
Same with our life and function. If we can just figure out those routines,
29:14
those aren't always easy to do.
29:15
So a lot of times I'll send people to a neurodivergent coach.
29:19
Let's talk about the things, setting up your life so that you can actually pay
29:26
attention to these things. Okay.
29:29
And then I was just, I just lost my thought. No, that's it.
29:32
I'll step in for a second so you can collect it. I was thinking when you're
29:36
talking about setting up their life and coaching, that is something that I work
29:39
on with clients and coaching, but also I'm almost done creating a course,
29:44
a 30 day ADHD confidence course.
29:46
And that's one of the first modules that we work on is the fact that you need
29:50
to be functioning optimally in order to then even look at where do I want my life to go?
29:57
How do I want to set up my life? and we talk about protein, we talk about nutrition
30:02
and hydration and rest. And a really great resource that I've used in the past
30:07
is Dr. Eric Prather, The Sleep Prescription.
30:10
It's just a little book. It's perfect. It's so digestible. It's broken down into steps.
30:16
He's a really great resource. I interviewed him here on the podcast.
30:18
I can link it below. But you are so right in that it often doesn't seem interesting.
30:24
It doesn't seem top priority. But when we do have that in place,
30:29
We have the proper nutrients for our brains and our bodies with starting,
30:32
like you said, that protein and we're hydrated. We've had a good sleep.
30:37
Everything feels better. And I think that can be one of the discrepancies in
30:44
ADHD that can be so frustrating is that other people see it,
30:48
but even in ourselves, we feel it. One day we can get so much done.
30:53
Medication or no medication, we can get so much done and we feel great about it.
30:58
And then another day we feel like we can't get off of our phone or the couch
31:04
and we feel so frustrated.
31:05
And So I think that's just a really great reminder as well of how important,
31:10
that baseline overall health is. Routine.
31:15
Routine. Routine is critical. And I think that, I think what I hear from my
31:19
patients the most, and even in my own children, a couple of things.
31:23
One, I can be doing good for weeks and weeks and weeks. And then one thing,
31:29
my day changes and all of a sudden my routine is thrown off and it takes me
31:32
months to get back on the routine.
31:34
So that's frustrating. for people. So having
31:38
some interventions to set things up so that you can get back on track quicker,
31:43
because we're all going to get off track, not beating yourself up about being
31:47
off track, but noticing it sooner so that you can get back on the track is optimal, right?
31:52
Also, you know, I think a lot of times we think, okay, I got it.
32:00
And then nothing happened and all of a sudden you lost it. Like, how did I lose it?
32:06
I always tell my patients, I have a Google Doc or like Google Keep app in my phone.
32:12
And whenever I have an insight, an aha moment about my life or about something
32:17
that works, I write it in there.
32:18
And then when my life's not working, I go back to the list and go, what did I stop doing?
32:23
It's a great idea. And it's nice if it's just one place. I had a moment yesterday
32:28
with thinking with my kids, my eldest has been struggling lately.
32:31
And I realized I don't give him any omegas. He hasn't. And I know that.
32:35
I know that. I've known that my whole life how important those are.
32:39
And all of a sudden, I'm like, I think it's been like two years that I haven't,
32:42
you know, and I got I got a little frustrated.
32:44
And then I realized, you know what, we're doing all these other things.
32:48
They eat very, you know, whole foods and fish and all these other things.
32:52
I think it's okay. But it's true. It's it's hard.
32:55
And I think something I'll often say to myself, too, is, Kelsey,
32:59
if you remembered all of those things, what a boring brain you would have to
33:04
just have those things like they get pushed out because you think about so many
33:08
interesting concepts and ideas.
33:10
And that that might just be part of the price that you pay for having that curious, inquisitive brain.
33:18
Yes. And I always say progress, not perfection. Yes. If we try to be perfect,
33:23
we are setting ourself up for failure.
33:26
Absolutely. Everything in its right time. Yeah.
33:30
Okay, so coming back to, I'm thinking about, so you talked about in our fight
33:35
or flight nervous system, our sympathetic nervous system, the blood drains.
33:38
We can't think that's going to affect executive functioning.
33:42
When you talked about earlier, you were talking about dopamine as far as,
33:46
you know, being out in the sun, nature, singing at the top of your lungs,
33:50
petting an animal, things like that, playing with your kids.
33:52
What about, is that still connected then to our nervous system?
33:57
How would you, how would you get out of a dysregulated nervous system?
34:02
Well, I mean, there's a couple of ways. I mean, there's some like very easy
34:06
ways, like little quick tips and tricks.
34:09
One of the things is, is if we pull down on our earlobes for 30 to 60 seconds,
34:14
what you'll notice when you're in this fight or flight, because it's the end
34:18
of your vagus nerve, the bundle branch.
34:20
So when you pull down and you just hold it there, nice and firm,
34:24
you will get, you will let out a sigh. You will let out a, you know,
34:28
what you'll, you'll, you'll, you'll feel that letdown.
34:32
And that can take you out of that panicked, can't think state and bring you back.
34:38
The other key I always tell my patients is when you notice your inability to
34:44
think a lot of times and you're getting frustrated with yourself,
34:48
just stop and use your five senses.
34:51
I see, I smell, I feel, I hear, I touch.
34:56
You know, I think I said that. But you know what I mean? Like you're using your
34:59
senses to bring you back in the moment.
35:02
Because really the reason that you can't focus is because all of a sudden you just opened up.
35:07
Have you ever opened up a Word document on your computer and 9,000 of them pop
35:12
open of the things you never closed?
35:15
That's what's happening, I think, in our focus is that we're sitting there to
35:19
do something and one word triggers a thought about something else we have open,
35:25
and then that takes us and off we go to the races.
35:28
But then if you can go, oh, what was I doing?
35:32
And that's, I think, getting better at that is recognizing I'm off track. Let me get back on track.
35:40
The other thing I think that people need to stop beating themselves up about is.
35:46
For me, if you put me into the emergency room, I would not be able to function, okay?
35:52
I have a variant in my DNA called met-met,
35:56
and the met-met variant means that when I go into an urgent situation,
36:03
I already have so much dopamine in my prefrontal cortex, it floods the dopamine,
36:07
and then I can't think, because too much dopamine is too much dopamine.
36:11
You know, everything is a delicate balance. So when you have too much,
36:14
then you basically, you're done.
36:17
But then you see the people who work in the emergency room who like are,
36:22
you know, ready to, something happens. And like, if you watch the pit,
36:26
you know, they're like on it. And I'm like, I ought to be like dead.
36:29
But what's happening for them is that they have a val-val variant and they don't
36:34
have enough dopamine to the prefrontal cortex. So, when the urgency happens,
36:38
the dopamine goes to the prefrontal cortex.
36:41
Same thing with people who feel like they need a fire under their butt in order
36:44
to get moving on something versus chipping away little by little.
36:49
It's that difference in your DNA. It's a variation. It's a SNP.
36:55
And I think part of that is learning who we are, learning how we respond to those situations.
37:04
I know in ADHD 2.0, the book, they talk about finding your right kind of difficult.
37:09
We hate boredom. It's our kryptonite, they call it, and needing the right type of challenge.
37:15
So figuring out maybe it's not the emergency room, maybe it's starting a business
37:20
or writing a book or public speaking or whatever it is, whatever it is that people find to be
37:26
that challenge that brings them more energy as opposed to,
37:31
causing them to just completely crash.
37:34
So the two things I had heard you say, so as far as a dysregulated nervous system,
37:38
pulling down on the earlobes, you said for 30 to 60 seconds?
37:42
Yeah, 30, you'll feel it when it's time to let go. Gotcha, I got you.
37:46
A couple minutes later, I'm still there.
37:48
And then using the five senses to help get you out of that.
37:51
Something else that I heard within that, that I was thinking about was that.
37:56
I think for me, I need to have enough, I call it positive distraction,
38:02
but really positive stimulation going on so that my mind doesn't wander to all
38:08
of those different open tabs.
38:09
So when I'm working at a coffee shop, it's great.
38:12
There's lots of people around. Occasionally I'll talk, occasionally I'll work, whatever it is.
38:15
If I'm at home, I need to have music or a podcast playing a lot of the time
38:20
because otherwise that silence, there's not enough stimulation and I will go searching for it.
38:28
So I think that's, can you touch on that? Is that accurate within?
38:31
And yeah, well, I think that there's that that subtype, which you're you're
38:36
in. And then on the other subtype, which if I could be typing away,
38:40
I can't remember my kids were younger, I'd be typing away.
38:43
And if they walked in, done, can't. And then I'm just so upset because it's
38:48
gone that, you know, I just lost that.
38:52
I can't listen to anything with words, music with words, when I'm doing anything
38:56
or even a podcast because I will be, next thing you know, I'm typing when I'm the words.
39:02
You know, I need like classical music or like ambient sound, like birds.
39:07
I always in my house will play bird sounds. People always think,
39:10
do you have a bird? No, I don't.
39:13
So I think it's figuring out what works for you, creating that life around it.
39:19
When I wrote my book, I wrote it in the Pomodoro Method because I had started
39:24
umpteen books prior to that and never finished them because I have a habit of
39:27
starting things and not finishing them up. I used to. I don't anymore.
39:31
But I was able to pound that book out in 21 days in the Pomodoro Method,
39:36
25 minutes on, and then making myself stop with a timer and walking around my
39:41
house for five minutes and then sitting back down. And that worked so beautifully.
39:46
So it's really finding what works for you.
39:51
And I, you know, a lot of times patients will come to me and they're,
39:54
they're frustrated with their life and they're miserable and they feel like
39:58
they need an antidepressant or they feel like they need this, that and the other.
40:01
And I, first I say, let's, let's get your gut and your brain synced up.
40:06
So we work on gut health. And then I say, okay, what, what, if I had a magic
40:10
wand, what in your life needs to change? They know exactly what needs to change.
40:14
But then there's this part of them that doesn't want to change it.
40:18
So, you know, I, back in my 30s, I said, okay, I need to design a life that I love.
40:24
I'm doing things that I'm good at.
40:27
I'm doing things that I have to do, but I'm not doing enough that I want to be doing.
40:32
And so I started from the end. What do I want my life to look like?
40:37
Okay, what do I need to do in order to get there? And then I went back to school for 10 years.
40:44
Wow.
40:46
But I was like, I don't want to drive in rush hour. I don't want to have to
40:51
work with coworkers. Isn't that awful?
40:54
I don't want to have to be in a system that I can't agree with because I'm a right fighter, right?
41:02
Right. So, so I designed, I'm in private practice. I work from home.
41:06
I don't have coworkers. I love people, but I like to work with the people that
41:10
I'm working with, not all the, because it's just more personalities that we
41:14
have to juggle and it's more censorship that we have because,
41:17
you know, we will say things.
41:20
And we will, you know, the next thing you know,
41:22
we're, we're like, why did I say that?
41:24
And then that's wasted energy because, you know, I'm here for,
41:29
for my patients, but then I got to worry about what came out of my mouth in the break room.
41:32
I don't want to do that, right? Yeah. And, you know, so I designed my life.
41:38
And I think that if we could spend more time designing our lives,
41:42
we will have more satisfaction, but it takes a little bit of work to get there.
41:45
Mm-hmm. And part of that is understanding yourself, right?
41:49
Being able to unmask, show up authentically, know what it is you actually want.
41:53
I think another part that we don't often think about is that,
41:58
sometimes what we feel like we want to do what we want to pursue we've questioned
42:03
ourselves because growing up maybe other people told us you're too much you're
42:07
too sensitive you're too loud you're too talkative,
42:10
you're too you're too much right and I think we over the years we've internalized
42:15
that and that can take some work to.
42:17
To work through that but I think just to remind people who are listening that when,
42:22
you you have that passion that dream on your heart that it's okay for it to
42:28
be different from somebody else's and that,
42:31
you're also not wrong or selfish for wanting to pursue that and and the reason
42:36
why I say that just even as an example,
42:39
is I've always felt like I've had dreams about it of being in front of an audience.
42:45
And it wasn't because I thought, oh, I'm such a good speaker and I should be
42:49
in front of people. Absolutely not. I get so nervous.
42:51
But it felt like that was something that I was supposed to do.
42:54
And I feel like this podcast is a part of that, maybe in a different way,
42:58
with one person like this.
43:01
But recognizing that it's not when you have that dream or that passion,
43:05
it's not out of a selfish motive.
43:07
This isn't me going, oh, look at me. I'm up here. This is something that's deep
43:12
within your heart and I think it's okay to and it's good to pursue that like
43:17
you said and it will just take a little bit of time to figure out.
43:20
And I believe that if we have that dream on our heart we have the ability to
43:25
make it happen otherwise we wouldn't be given that dream because I don't believe
43:28
that we're here to live a frustrating life.
43:32
I believe that we're here to contribute and connect with other souls that's
43:36
why we're here you know that's why we came here.
43:38
And we all came here with this mission of this greater purpose.
43:42
And when it's on your heart and you don't do it, the distress of not doing it.
43:48
So for me, I always knew I wanted to help people. I always knew that that's
43:53
what I was meant to do. And I did not want to go back to school.
43:56
I did not want to have to go to school for 10 years when my kids were in adolescence and teens.
44:02
But the pain of not doing it was now greater than the pain of doing it.
44:06
And that's when I moved into action.
44:09
And I think that is an important reminder too, is what you said about,
44:13
Looking at the end and working backwards and saying, how do I hope I would have
44:18
spent my time? What kinds of things do I want to have pursued as opposed to taking it?
44:24
You know, I mean, sometimes one day at a time is still a thing,
44:26
too. But it can feel like life is happening to us when we don't have that intentionality
44:31
of looking forward and planning as best as we can for the future.
44:36
You have to have something pulling you through your days.
44:40
And that vision and dream of what you want to get to has got to be worthy of you.
44:46
If it's not, you're going to get lost in the day. You're going to get lost on
44:50
your phone. You're going to get distracted. You're going to get sad because
44:54
it's not happening fast enough.
44:55
But if you can wake up every day and go, what do I get to do today?
45:00
Versus what do I have to do today? I think what do I have to do?
45:03
It's a completely different way to live.
45:05
And then trusting that even when you're not there yet, you might be in a preparation
45:11
phase before you get to that.
45:13
And each of these phases are important. I felt like that's been something for
45:17
me. And I'm excited when I think about some of these dreams that I feel like
45:20
God's placed in my heart.
45:22
I am so excited for one day to, you know, host in-person events for women with ADHD.
45:28
One day. One day it will happen. It's not yet.
45:32
Well, listen, this is all, nothing's lost. It's all in preparation.
45:35
I mean, when I think about my life and where I am today, right all the way back
45:40
to, you know, having a child young and getting all that out of the way while I was young, right?
45:46
And on all of that, everything, you know, I was an alchemist.
45:50
Something would come into my world, into my kids' worlds. You know,
45:54
I'm a mama bear who's going to conquer the world through her children.
45:59
And so all of that was, I was putting it into my pocket, into my tool chest.
46:05
You know, eventually, so that now when I'm sitting in front of a patient,
46:10
there's nothing a patient can't say to me that surprises me or makes me feel
46:15
like, oh, this is, there's no hope because I have been through it all and,
46:19
I'm still standing and I'm here and my patients feel that when they sit across
46:23
from me and they're like,
46:24
there's something different about you.
46:25
I'm like, yes, lived experience.
46:29
Yeah, and that's great for them to be able to have somebody who actually understands
46:34
on multiple different levels.
46:37
Before we go, where can people go to find out more about you and about your
46:44
book and the work that you're doing?
46:46
FinallyItMakesSense.org is the umbrella under which I operate on Insta,
46:54
Finally It Makes Sense, on Facebook, Finally It Makes Sense.
46:58
If you just type that in, you'll find me.
47:00
My book is called Escaping the Chaos, and it's on Amazon.
47:05
And I even recorded it for those people. And I did this for my patients because,
47:10
you know, I'll tell my patients, hey, you know, there's this book and I wrote
47:13
it based on the framework on which I practice and in my story and things like that.
47:18
And they say, oh, well, I don't I don't really have the patience to read.
47:21
And I'm like, guess what?
47:22
I recorded it for you. So you can listen to it in the car.
47:25
And it's so nice, too, when the author narrates it and like the Let Them Theory, Mel Robbins.
47:31
I love her voice. And so I was, but often I can't listen to audio books because
47:36
the narration is too slow or I don't like the sound. I, you know,
47:40
overwhelmed with it. So I think that's great that you're able to do that.
47:44
All right. Thank you so much for all of this information. I have so many notes
47:48
here that I will have to come back to. So I appreciate you taking the time to
47:52
be with us here today. Thank you for having me.
47:55
I had a wonderful time and I look forward to another conversation maybe in the future.