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How Leaders Stay Clear Headed Under Pressure · That Home Loan Hub

• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: How can leaders build with clarity, confidence, and capability while navigating pressure, uncertainty, change, and growth?
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, today I am joined by Anna Glenn, all the way from Melbourne, and we're gonna dive into this very interesting topic because life is crazy, everyone's under pressure, everyone has to perform.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: How do you do that without burning out and killing yourself over sales targets?
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, Anna.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, good morning.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: How are you?
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Good morning.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: I can't imagine what time it is in Melbourne and you had to get up for this.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Not too early, but I I'm uh I'm the early bird, so I I prefer to do things earlier.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's probably when I'm most switched on.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: So let's see how this goes.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yesterday I had Heather Hutchins from Energy Architect, and we talked a lot about energies and doing the things that, you know, according to your energy, not your time.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: So what you just said is bang on in terms of that.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: So Anna, thank you so much.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: We met a month ago, or maybe a couple of months ago now in NUSA, and you delivered a beautiful presentation around strong and stronger.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Let's dive into who you are and what you do.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Please let us know for our listeners what who's Anna?
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: What does she do?
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Great way to start.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I where do I begin?
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I am a speaker, author, and coach all around sustainable high performance.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really the work that lights me up.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: For me, my background is in financial services.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: So a bit like yourself, uh, have worked a lot with mortgage brokers, financial planners, accountants, lawyers, all running sort of, you know, small to medium businesses.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: I guess a little bit of the background into how I've come to be where I am today.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: I was working in the sector, leading a national sales team, and really around me at the time saw lots of people performing, but at coming at a cost.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so I guess that's a bit of the discussion that we're going to have today is where there was this, you know, idea that people were hitting their goals, hitting their KPIs, but you know, it was coming at a cost to their well-being, or they were disengaged with the work, or they were, you know, struggling with the relationships around them, whether that was people within the workplace, or if that was obviously, you know, the more important people like your loved ones.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me, that really sparked a question that I've been exploring for over a decade, which is how do we actually sustain high performance without the cost that's associated with it?
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: So over that time, I've done studies in this space, you know, formal studies with universities.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've also gone out and worked with organizations and teams trying to understand, well, how do we perform without, you know, or or alongside us actually thriving in our work and in our lives at the same time.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's what I share now in the work that I do is all the strategies and, you know, tips and frameworks that I've actually learned along the way of how do we actually do this?
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: How do we actually achieve what we want to set out without a cost that sometimes comes with it?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a very big topic, isn't it?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like a lot of the people have been listening to this going, nah, that's not possible.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like you cannot work hard, achieve your targets, and not burn out.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like we've been conditioned that it goes hand in hand.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a lot of the unwiring that we have to do because there is this idea out there that a lot of us have deep down inside us, and whether that's come from our family influences or obviously our workplace influences.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: But for a long time, yeah, there's this idea that, you know, you have to be working hard and pushing yourself to the limits to then get those performance results.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas when you actually think about it, like they don't go hand in hand.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you can't be performing at your best when it is costing you on those other things.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I always challenge people to think, you know, imagine what performance would look like if the things around you were at their best as well.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like how much, you know, better would performance be?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: I guess the other challenge I throw out there is, you know, how do we actually define this thing called high performance?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: So is it that we are only looking at the numbers, which is probably the traditional ways that we measure performance, or are we playing the bigger game where when we look at high performance, it actually does include, you know, having great relationships, being really energized and excited by our work, you know, you know, being engaged in our lives as well.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, it is possible as well.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: So that's certainly what I found.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: And there are plenty of people that are living this day-to-day, which is amazing to see.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's beautiful because yeah, I feel like historically, you know, you sort of get this badge of honor by burning out and going, well, I worked hard now, I've burnt out, you know, and and that's not okay.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about the positive psychology because I know you're really huge on positive psychology.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: What is positive psychology and how can our listeners benefit from knowing more about this in this industry field?
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it is absolutely a passion of mine, and and since learning more about the field, it's something I live day to day by.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting that as a field itself, it's only been around for just over 25 years.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, the field was founded or I guess suggested by a clinical psychologist out of the US by the name of Martin Seligman.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: So at the time he was the president of the American Psychological Association, he put a call out to his peers who were clinical psychologists, suggesting or encouraging them to, you know, perhaps put more emphasis on what makes a life worth living, like what helps us thrive.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you think about a field of psychology, pretty much since, you know, World War II, it has been heavily focused on helping people who are struggling, helping people who are mentally unwell.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: And through that research and the emphasis over those last decades, it's been amazing because now we have some really good strategies on how we can help people move from kind of that negative state to that more neutral state.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: What positive psychology is doing is actually looking at how do you get people from potentially that neutral state and getting them to a 10 out of 10.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually looking at how do we help people thrive or flourish.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Also, how do we stop people from struggling as well?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not to say that the concepts or the things that we study and research are new.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: They're not.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, a lot of this comes back, you know, from the days of the Stoics and Aristotle.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's influenced heavily by, you know, areas like Buddhism.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: But now we just have a term under which a lot of these things now sit under, which is positive psychology.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm, that's interesting.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: If you were to give someone uh an insight into like one thing they could start doing today, what would it be?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh gosh.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's like asking me to like choose your favorite child or something.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think for a lot of it, it comes down to mindset.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: So if we think about mindset, which is obviously a huge topic, it has such a big impact on, you know, the actions we then take and then the way that we feel.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: It actually all starts with that muscle within our heads.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, there are, you know, studies I ask my audiences and the people I work with all the time to reflect on, you know, how much of an impact do you think mindset has had on your ability to navigate your challenges and then on your success.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: And typically the numbers I'm getting, you know, certainly above like 80%.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, just yesterday someone said 110%.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's really interesting because when you then reflect on, well, how often are you actually trying to strengthen this muscle, unlike perhaps our physical muscles, people can't give me a number or show me where it is in their diary or their calendar.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they are saying it is incredibly important.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: So again, with uh, you know, positive psychology and other fields, we have learned what we need to do as strategies to actually strengthen that mindset.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it isn't something that's just going to show up.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: It is something that we need to practice every day if we want to strengthen it, but also leverage its benefits as well.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, how can people strengthen their mindset?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: How did I know that'd be the next question?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: You knew that was coming.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think for me, one of the best ways is trying to challenge ourselves on perhaps some of the, you know, the stories we tell ourselves.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: And again, a lot of this is deeply ingrained in us.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: Again, potentially from our upbringings, our upbringings in our work life as well.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: The benefits of what we certainly have learned from areas like neuroplasticity is that we have that ability to create new pathways and actually help change the thoughts that we may have as well.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: One of the best ways that I've seen this really have an impact is through gratitude practices.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: Now, there is a lot of different ways that we can practice gratitude, but gratitude, when we practice it over time, it becomes a new way of actually looking at our lives.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: So by default, as humans, you know, we are more inclined to focus on the negative or things that might go wrong in our lives or things that we don't have.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: And there's that idea of, you know, I have to do these things.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas when we practice gratitude, this is where we actually start to see our worlds differently.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: We actually focus on all the positive, all the things that are going well, all the things that we do have and all the things that we get to do as opposed to have to do.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it really becomes a way of being.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: But it is not something that just happens overnight.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like we don't practice gratitude once and we suddenly wake up in a different state.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: Studies, again, have shown that this is something that you have to practice daily for, you know, weeks, if not months, before you can actually start to see those ongoing benefits.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: But the benefits are absolutely worth the uh the investment that you put in.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think it's something we get more and more exposed to now and like our children?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Do you see this coming as a bigger wave than it was 30 years ago when we were growing up?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: My goodness, the young people that I, you know, hang out with were so fortunate that a lot of our schools and the curriculum, they're already teaching these things.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that was a gap that I saw when I started exploring this spaces.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: I would talk to my friends who are teachers, and they're like, oh, we're already, we're already talking about this with our with our students.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: And in particular in Australia, you know, positive education is huge.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, we are one of the leaders in the world when it comes to teaching our children these things.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: So they are so lucky that they're already being exposed to this.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: We also see a lot of our sporting codes adopting, you know, these concepts as well.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Where the gap was was probably mostly in our workplaces and our organizations.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that is absolutely changing.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: Now, again, these concepts aren't radical, like intuitively make sense.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: And they are, they should just be the way that we operate as humans.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: But for whatever reason, over time, they've kind of been knocked out of us.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's almost like a return back to that way of being and overcoming some of those inherent biases or survival mechanisms that we have to actually make sure that we are focused on the good.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's beautiful.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you reminded me when I was a kid, I used to spend a lot of time as my grandmother.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember every morning we will get up and before we eat meals, uh, we because I'm from a Muslim background, and part of the prayer that you do is you have to list things you're grateful for before you start the meal.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something I grew up with.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember it clearly as a day.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, she would, every morning she would say things like, I'm grateful for the sky, I'm grateful for the birds that are singing, I'm grateful for, you know, my granddaughter being here with me, I'm grateful for the food in front of me.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that would be sometimes even three times a day, every time before the meal.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I never really thought of it as something that was embedded in me until now.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Now that I'm interviewing more people like you, that, and we talk a lot about the mindset, I've realized how fortunate I was growing up with that, in that, you know, having that voice of my grandmother hearing how grateful she was every day for simple things.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: And now I'm going, oh my God, I was so, so lucky that I had that.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess this is why I'm so happy most of the time, because I focus on things that are going well rather than focusing on, oh, you know, I don't have this or this is not going well, or whatever.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: I always go, well, at least I'm grateful, you know, I've got X, Y, Z.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I never realized it was a whole movement now and a whole thing until yeah, a few years ago that I really started looking into it.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: So that's fascinating.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of the workplace, because as you're right, this is the area where it is lacking quite a bit, and with our leaders, especially, like, how can we help them to understand the positive impacts it can have on their teams and what what can we equip them with to help their teams?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: Again, it's a it's a great question, and it's obviously something that I love exploring and and supporting groups with.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think it just comes back down to you know being a human.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the best thing about this particular point of time in our history is that this shift that we're seeing because of things like tech and AI is actually asking us to be more human.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: So if for decades we were probably influenced or encouraged to be more robotic, more like robots, you know, in the workplace that I was certainly part of, it was like, don't show emotions, just show up, do your job, you know, don't complain, don't talk about your personal life.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, I'm being a bit stereotypical here.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: But there was almost that idea that we needed to be more robotic.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas now, because the robots are here, what I'm saying to people is, no, now's our time to actually be more human.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: And exactly as you've already shared, like these have been sort of trends we've been seeing over the past couple of years, which is great.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Particularly, I think, since those heightened days of the pandemic, there has been much more of a human side coming into our workplaces.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, you know, in a country like New Zealand, I've got a book on my shelf, you know, you know, seeing different styles of leadership like to Cinder O'Dern with, you know, leading with empathy, you know, it goes to show that you can have that human side and and still achieve.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: There's people out there that are, you know, sort of highlighting to us that this strategy does work.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we can actually still deliver on what our goals are, but still be human at the same time.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I I know intuitively this has to make sense for people.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: It it gives people that idea that, you know, you can still perform and be a good human and have great relationships and have good well-being and not have to stress and burn out so much.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: But unfortunately, we have to be more intentional about it and practice it because for many of us, it's not the way that we're used to operating.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because for so long we were in that environment which was saying, be more robotic.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I get that.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that leads to a lot of team disengagement, team breakups, right?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Have you seen teams recover?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: Have you seen teams rebuild from debt and get solid?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: It is possible.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: It is possible.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: It does take really good leadership.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: And in some cases, what I've found is that leaders have had to actually, you know, be vulnerable themselves and almost draw a line in the sand with their teams and, you know, perhaps acknowledge the fact that maybe the way that they were leading isn't working anymore and that there is a better way, and they want to try it as well.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I've worked with leaders who have, you know, sort of drawn the line in the sand and then said to their teams, you know what, I want to practice a different way going forward.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd also invite you guys to hold me to account.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: So when I'm slipping into old ways, or you see me turning up with the wrong behaviors that aren't aligned with the person I want to be or the leader I want to be, like let's call it out.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: Now, again, that takes time because if you've been part of environments where that wasn't the norm or they're not psychologically safe, or they are toxic, there's a lot of trust that has to be rebuilt there.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not something, again, that's just going to happen overnight, but it is possible, absolutely.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it does start with that leader, perhaps being a little bit more vulnerable as well in the beginning.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just trying to think, like, or some of the people I know in the industry, or some of the people outside the industry, you know, and the teams they're leading.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it does take tapping into your softer side, not the tough skills that we've been taught, and this is the way to be.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, what's the other side of it?
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of attracting the right people into your team, how can how can leaders do that?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Can I pause there?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because I reckon if we go back to that soft hard discussion, yeah.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: Remember, we had that convers we had that conversation in NUSA about that they're now the performance multipliers.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I would be keen to go down there if you want to.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's go.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe just say or if you want to ask the host and like uh, because you just you just said it in that heart and it made me think about you said, you know, we've been accustomed to focus on the hard skills, but what I'm hearing is it's more about the soft skills.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe there's something like that.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it does, right?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it's I feel like a lot of the time, especially for you in the sales role, in order to keep the business running, you gotta look at numbers, you've got to look at deliverables, the performance, the all the things that go hand in hand by being some kind, I don't even want to say that word, but like tough and aggressive, and you know, you're driving a certain lane and a certain car.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, and I fully agree with you here, is if you flip it on the other side and go, I want to approach this from the softer point of view, I want to find out what's going on for my people.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Why are they reacting the way they're reacting to things, what's going on in their lives?
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes actually, when you stop and think and talk to your people, you will uncover that someone may be going through separation, someone may be going through an illness or whatever that's affecting their performance.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: Someone may be, you know, their children may be unwell or their pets or whatever.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if you approach it from the empathy, obviously if they're taking a piss constantly, like there's gotta be something about that.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: But if if you believe in your humans, you gotta understand what's driving them and why.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: And money is not the beginning and the end of it all.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like a lot of people put a lot of pressure going, oh, well, I need to make money, I need to pay my bills.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, but that's the result of whatever will come from your work.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: And if you do it with love and purpose, the money will come, the money will flow.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: But what is driving you?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you doing this?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then actually, if you start tapping into that with salespeople, I find I actually love helping people.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: I actually love solving problems.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: I I get a big high out of, for me personally, I get a big high out of getting my first-time buyers into their home or helping mom and dad investors to set up their future wealth plans.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, I don't care about the commission.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like commission will come.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: But what I'm passionate about is solving people's problems.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when leaders understand what drives their people, it's not the money.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: Money is secondary, and that's great to have, but it's that softer side that we need to tap into more, and AI will not be able to solve that for us.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much to unpack in what you just said.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a conversation that I'm really enjoying at the moment, particularly with people in those customer-facing, let's say, traditional sales role, like a broker or an advisor, exactly as you said, you know, we know that money is only motivates us so far.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, when we actually look at the biggest motivators in our lives, like money is one of the lowest forms of motivation that we can get.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: So we need to think about that from our clients and our customers' perspectives.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, also, as you said, as a leader running a team of people that you want to be motivated because they're in that environment, it is really important to understand what is motivating or driving them.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: This is a concept I call around, you know, like play a bigger game.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the game that we've been playing, where we are so wound up in those KPIs and the goals, whether it's, you know, the amount of loans we write, the revenue we're bringing in, the volume, the market share, we are constantly measured by those things.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: But that can actually come with a whole range of negative outcomes as a result.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: The first is when we, you know, wind up identities into those factors.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: If our whole reason for being is because of those performance outcomes, that can actually set us up for a whole lot of ill being.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: And we see that when people retire or they lose their jobs or you know, things they're in tough environments and they don't get those performance things, it can be really difficult.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: Detrimental.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: So what I'm encouraging people to think about is actually what is driving you?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: What's your bigger game here?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it's exactly the things that you spoke about.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's around like what's the impact I want to have on people around me?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: What are the relationships that I want to have?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: What's my contribution to society?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: Who do I want to be as a human?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: And ultimately, what the biggest driver should be is, you know, all of us, the bigger game is having great health.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because if we don't have our health, we don't have anything.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: Now, those things are much more motivating for people.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: And what we know about them is that they will get you out of your bed on the hardest of days.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: So when the markets are grim, you're not feeling at your best, you're completely drained of energy, maybe you're feeling a little bit burnt out, you will get out of bed for those things, not for the dollars.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: And interestingly, again, what we know from research is those things actually lead to better performance outcomes.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: So they're actually what we call a lead indicator that then results in the lag indicator being performance.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: So if we focus on those other things, we'll probably end up finding that we end up, you know, delivering better on those other goals as well.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: I hope we haven't lost our listeners because they'll be going, What's going on here?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because a lot of my listeners are either first-on buyers or investors, but I have been seeing a lot of leaders following me and listening to this podcast and going, Ha, I actually got some jams here or how to do uh better with my team.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: So if if let's say if I have listeners that are looking to buy a house, how can your framework help them outside of you know, corporate world and things like that that you work in?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: How can we help them to change their mindset about what's in it for the future of their lives?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: I I think this probably comes, you know, down to some of those brilliant questions that I've seen, you know, exceptional advisors and brokers ask, which is one of the best questions you can ask anyone is like, what's important to you?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: So when anyone is making those big decisions, whether it is investing in the first home or a property or even if it's a holiday or anything else that people are sort of saving up to buy, the question underneath it all is kind of like, why is that important?
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how does that align with your values?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: Now, when I'm talking about values, I'm not talking about like ethical values, but it's actually like, what are the values you appreciate?
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: I actually call these the currencies of success.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: So when I have conversations with a lot of my clients, I'm asking them, like, what do you value?
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: What are your currencies of success?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because again, for maybe some of your listeners or for other people around, we often only measure ourselves on the dollar figure as the currency.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: But what I challenge people to think about is, yeah, what else are your currencies?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: So again, it could be relationships, it could be energy, well-being, health, it could be time, it could be choice, it could be purpose.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: So often when we are making those big, you know, monetary decisions or saving up for something, you know, it's not just about the house or the first home.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually about the family you want to, you know, create and the relationships you want to have in that home.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: The holiday might actually be about, you know, enjoying those relationships and contributing to your health and well-being.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: So there's always things sitting underneath the surface, which I think as advisors and brokers is really important to understand of your clients is like what's actually driving you here, what's important to you, what are your currencies of success and how is this investment helping that?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: I absolutely love that because often I look at people and I see onions.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's the layers.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: I love pulling back the layers and finding out what's in that core, because I feel like we as humans, you know, we go around our lives and we manage and somehow we just keep putting those layers and to protect ourselves because nobody wants to be seen vulnerable, nobody wants to, you know, give away everything they have in their soul or their dreams or their hopes.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: And what I found through my work with people over the last 15 years is I am passionate about understanding what's actually in that core.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Why are they doing what they're doing and why they're buying that house?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Do they even need to buy that house?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, sometimes out of you know sessions, I walk away with them and they go, actually, no, I don't want to buy a house.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm only buying it because my parents are telling me to do so, or because I'm feeling the pressure that I need to keep up with my friends.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they if and if their why is not strong enough to buy a house, for instance, they're not gonna buy it.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna get that pre-approval, they're gonna go to 50 different open homes and they're gonna find something wrong with every single house because their why is not aligned with their values.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: But the people that have a strong why, they come in and they go, right, I want to buy a house because we've got a baby on the way next year.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: We've got animals, we're getting kicked out of a rental, whatever.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: If their why is strong enough, they find a house within a month.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: Within a month, they've settled in.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it's fascinating for me when people go around their day and sometimes, and I'm gonna be very controversial here, and some of my listeners may be like, I don't want to listen to you ever again.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: But I feel like a lot of us lie to ourselves.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: And until we find it honesty and the truth into who we are and what we want and what are our values, you cannot hit those next milestones that you're trying to set for yourselves.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: Would you agree with that?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a lot of the work I do.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: And again, you know, we end up sometimes in these positions because of the influences we've had in our lives.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: And again, going back to family, workplace, all sorts of things is building our stories.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I work with a lot of people who are, you know, later on in their lives, they might be close to retirement and all of a sudden they have that, you know, realization that everything they've been doing was for someone else or for something else, not actually for them.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have that discussion around, you know, the values and what are they measuring.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it's not to say it's not for anything, but we we need to uncover that.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the sort of work that you're doing is what sets you out as an exceptional broker and advisor for people.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm probably sure that there would be a lot out there that aren't having those conversations and what a missed opportunity.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because exactly, you know, as you're demonstrating by having those conversations about what do you really value, you know, and why are you making this investment decision is helping you become that trusted advisor for your clients and your customers.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: So you might miss out on the deal, but you've had such a great impact.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that's obviously something that's, you know, a huge driver for you, Zadin.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: But the hope is that we have more and more, you know, people working in this space because it's delivering more value to the end client.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: But again, hopefully it's also aligning with their values of how they want to show up and who they want to be in those exchanges.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think what's going to be really interesting in this industry and so many others is a lot of the activities and things that we used to do for clients are now becoming automated.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: So the bots can do them, right?
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: So they can go and look at rates and policies and different, you know, lenders, et cetera, themselves.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: They've always been able to do that, but now there's something that helps them do it faster.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think what's going to separate the best advisors going forward are those that can have the conversations that you're having.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: So the stuff that can't be automated by the bot, it might be able to be in the future, but also people don't want to have that conversation with a bot.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: They want to have it with a human.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: So that's how you actually set yourself apart from your competitors, but also potentially the robots, because you're having those more human conversations and you're delivering more value as a result.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: And let's face it, the bots, again, I had another chat with uh Tim, and we were talking about how the bots are designed to please you, right?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: So if you are having this chat with the bot, the bot will be doing everything in its capacity to please you and tell you how right you are, how, yep, you should buy that house, or no, you shouldn't buy that house because you know, if you're questioning the wallpaper, it will go along with you and it will question all these things with you.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like, yes, the bots will have their place in terms of providing you with faster research and links and whatever, but you will not get an honest answer.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: The bot will not argue with you and challenge you and go, hey, are you sure you really want this?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: Is it you that's doing it?
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: Or because I'm sitting in the room here and I'm picking up on cues, because I can, you know, again, the bot will not be able to pick up on those physical cues or those unspoken energies that are flowing in the room when I'm sitting across the table from a couple and I can see the exchanges between them going, hmm, something's going on here.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: She's really quiet.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: He talks a lot, she's afraid to ask questions, but she's probably got a lot of questions in her head.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: How do we unpack that?
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: So uh yeah, it's fascinating to me.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry to like completely divert your No, but that's that's again that strength that we have as humans.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's the emotional intelligence side.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: And going back to you know, some of the earlier conversations we've been having, like that's what separates us from the boss.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Now I'm gonna put a little asterisk around that and go, at the moment, right?
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know what's coming and what their capability will be.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: But that is something that we all need to focus on and develop within ourselves because this is a human skill.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: Now, just because it's a human skill doesn't mean it automatically comes with humans.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: But this is hopefully something that all of us are going to better leverage going forward and want to develop within ourselves.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that emotional intelligence side, the empathy, et cetera.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: Again, you've got brilliant leaders who are demonstrating that, but like imagine how much of a better world this is going to be if all of us are actually, you know, doubling down on this particular skill as well.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: But it's hard, right?
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like I see a lot of people and they are struggling.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: They're struggling financially.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: And when they're struggling financially, everything just so much harder.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: And my heart does go out to them.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, how how can we help them?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: How can we get them out of that mindset of life is terrible, everything is doom and gloom, you know, there's war across the world, there's this happening and that happening, and I can't control anything in my life right now.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: How can we help them to get out of this?
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: First thing I can always say is turn off the news.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's probably driving a whole lot of that negativity that is around, unfortunately.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: But more practically, I think it comes back again to that earlier conversation we had around gratitude.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, when we are in our most stressed, exhausted states, you know, that's when the negativity can spiral.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: What I have found is one of those great strategies to get me out of that state, because I experience it as well, is to focus on what I'm grateful for.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, what do I have in my life as opposed to what I don't have?
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: What's really interesting about what happens in the brain is that when you are focused on what you're grateful for, when you're in those stressful states, it is virtually impossible for you to be in those two states at the same time.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: So when you find yourself spiraling, getting stressed, getting overwhelmed, the best strategy that you can try and adopt is, you know, potentially just list three things that you're grateful for right now.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: And at that point, your brain switches over to gratitude and the stress doesn't go away, but you you suddenly feel different about it.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that for me has been an absolute game changer when it comes to those moments that I'm trying to better navigate.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: So again, it comes back to our friend gratitude, you know, have that attitude of gratitude.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: Again, it is a habit that takes practice.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I have little prompts around my house that remind me to do it as well.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the more we practice it, the better at it that we get.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I found that that's been the biggest help for me to deal with that stress and anxiety.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: Can leaders do that with their teams on their um monthly meetings or something that they can try to introduce?
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like again, this is a way of being.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: So when we are trying to adopt any new habit, you don't want to just think about what you might do individually, particularly when we're part of workplaces and teams.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: We want to think about how we do it as a collective.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because obviously, the more we do it, the more impact we're gonna see, and the more likely we are to do it when we've got other people around us experiencing it.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: My encouragement to leaders and teams is yep, pop it into your weekly, you know, sales, sales meetings, if it is.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, don't start with the doom and gloom.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: Start with, hey, what's going on well right now?
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's a really simple question that anyone can just add to the agenda.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to take 30 minutes, it could take five.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: But then we think about it as, you know, teams.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: How can we express gratitude to one another?
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how can we pause at the end of, you know, big projects or big deals or whatever it is we're working towards and actually reflect back and kind of be grateful for that period that we've gone through?
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: How can we get to the end of each week and reflect on, you know, what we're grateful for and who's helped us as well?
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many different ways that we can practice it, but again, like any new habit, you have to commit to it.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: You have to know how you're gonna practice it and hold yourself to account to it.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, it's just not gonna happen.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: I love it, absolutely love it.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I just keep thinking, okay, what am I gonna do with my team today?
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because we're gonna have a team meeting in an hour.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: What can I bring into the team meeting to get them open up about this?
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: So that's beautiful, beautiful.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's good timing.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: Now, um, I would like to wrap up because I've taken so much of your time.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: Can I ask you about your book?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because you've written a book.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's called Strong, it's right behind you.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: Can we talk more a little bit about this?
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: So Strong.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: Strong is basically the playbook that I wish I had when I was leading teams, when I was working in sales environments, and it's what I share these days.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: Strong is an acronym and it speaks to the strategies that I've uncovered through my you know studies, through my research of high-performing teams, whether that's you know, corporate or sporting codes, even what I've learned from you know, working in education sectors.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: It is a summary of well, these are the strategies that actually help us thrive when we're working and in our personal lives as well.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: So this looks at anything from mindset that we've been discussing.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: So around optimism, it looks at purpose, it looks at play into your strengths, it looks at how do you have really great relationships.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: It is not rocket science.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: I say this to people all the time, but it just gives us the research and I guess sometimes the confidence to perhaps these strategies out, see what works, see what doesn't for your own teams.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: It also gives us the encouragement or reminder that at the end of the day, these things are just about being really good humans and the way that we want to be treated.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: And ultimately, that ends up delivering better performance for all of us as well.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I hope that it's a it's helpful for people to have as a little playbook, perhaps a reminder of the things that they're already doing, but perhaps, you know, a bit of a suggestion of some things that they could try as well.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's beautiful.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, I would love for you to send us a link that we can link up to this session so people can go and have a look at that book and purchase it from you.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: That would be awesome.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: Now, one final question.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: What does thriving look like for you now?
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, great question.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it and it's an everyday strategy, right?
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's not something that's one and done.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: We talk about that a lot.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just that you get there one day and you get to stay there.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, it's an everyday practice.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: And just like every other person on this planet, we go through those ups and the downs.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: The best thing that I've accumulated over time is what I call my toolkit.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: So when I am having a down day or a great day, it's actually pausing and reflecting on like, what do I need right now?
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: What is it that I need today to feel better or stay the way that I'm feeling as well?
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: So every day, you know, it is a reminder of, you know, how am I investing in my relationships?
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: How am I prioritizing my health?
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: Where's my energy?
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: How's my day set up so I am doing work when I'm at my best?
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: Or how am I also showing up to my loved ones in my best state as well, because that's the most important thing.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: Have I done something today to contribute to my purpose?
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like these are just things that every single day I'm pretty much thinking about.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: And what I find is when I'm not prioritizing them, that's probably the days when I'm not feeling my best.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it it probably goes without saying that there's, yeah, there's a method to the madness, but it does show up when you don't prioritize the things that are important to you.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: As you were talking about it, I was just feeling how grateful we are to be living where we're living.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like you in Australia, it's nice and beautiful, except the snakes and spiders.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm in New Zealand, and I just think we've got so much to be grateful for for where we are and for taking the charge of our lives, not waiting for someone to come and rescue us and to show us the way, you know, we're being curious, we are trying to find better ways of doing things.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: We are using the bots to our advantages and things like that.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like if listeners take anything away from this, as you are in charge of your own mindset.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: No one else can control your mindset, only you can.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: And by becoming in charge of that, by driving that car, you can take it to places you want to take it.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: You can choose to turn the street and end up in a dark forest and you know, stay there, or you can go, hey, even if I arrived at the forest, what am I gonna do?
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: What do I have in my toolkit?
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: Do I have a torch?
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then go through that.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: The mindset metaphor that I like to use of, you know, even in the darkest forest, if you can find that torch, you can shine the light, there is a light at the end of that tunnel, at the end of that forest.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: So and I love interviewing people like you, Anna, because to me, I feel like the more people are out there sprinkling that sunshine, you know, showing the positive psychology, working with that mindset, it's just gonna make our world so much better.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: I hope so.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's the aim.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's the aim.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate you being here today.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't wait to see where else we're gonna cross our path.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: I love the conversation, Z.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.