Latest / The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten / Nobody Wants To Be The Asshole.... AKA Why Couples Counseling Works

Transcript

Nobody Wants To Be The Asshole.... AKA Why Couples Counseling Works · The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten

• 0:05
  Hi everybody and welcome to the Doctor Psych Mom Show.
• 0:09
  In today's episode, I'm going to discuss how nobody Wants to be
• 0:12
  the Asshole is a central precept for understanding why couples
• 0:16
  counseling works. And it may be a bit cynical, but
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  it's also kind of interesting, you know, can be both.
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  And it's not really cynical. It's more practical, you know,
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  and harnessing how people generally tend to act is not
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  cynical, per se. It's really kind of just just a
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  a wider lens, right, to understand because, you know,
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  you could idealize it like things work and people do better
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  after couples counseling, which most people by the way, say the
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  couples counseling was beneficial for their marriage.
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  So there's like this myth that like everybody who goes to
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  couples counseling gets divorced, but that's not what
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  actual surveys say. But anyway, most people find it
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  beneficial. So you could say that's out of
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  deep love for one another. Or I could say it's because the
• 1:02
  therapist is so awesome and therapy is such a, you know,
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  skilled and difficult profession and what have you, you know?
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  But I truly think that you know it's neither of those.
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  As much as it is that people you know don't want to lose face.
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  You know they they want to work, at least at first.
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  They don't want to be the asshole.
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  And then sure, once things start to change and get better, then
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  you know they're doing it for the love of their partner and
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  their kids and what have you. But this is a different way to
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  think about it and we will get more into depth about that right
• 1:32
  after I tell you to subscribe my most recent subscriber episode.
• 1:35
  Episode is where I first touched upon this idea how to healthy
• 1:38
  couples age well together and you can have that as well as 140
• 1:43
  others about if you subscribe only 899 a month.
• 1:46
  The link is always in the episode description and if
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  that's too much, then you could join the Facebook group too.
• 1:52
  That's a great group of people. Blue subscribe button on the
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  Facebook page of Doctor Sykema and that's where I also get
• 1:59
  other ideas from discussions how people e-mail me ideas like
• 2:03
  constantly. I cannot do that.
• 2:05
  I can't. I cannot do everybody's idea
• 2:08
  that emails me. And usually I tell those people
• 2:10
  why don't you bring it up in the secret group.
• 2:12
  But the benefit of being in the secret group is that I do, you
• 2:15
  know want to please those people more.
• 2:16
  Those people are in my group. So I am going to take their
• 2:19
  ideas over the ones that I am constantly emailed from from
• 2:23
  other people. So join the group.
• 2:25
  It's only 5 bucks a month anyway.
• 2:29
  Moving on. So what do I mean by nobody
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  wants to be the asshole And how does this manifest?
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  So usually people come into couples counseling at the behest
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  of 1 partner. It isn't usually that.
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  Both have just sat down and said, you know what, we could
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  really use some couples counseling.
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  No, it's not usually like that because it's usually due to
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  conflict. So basically the in in many
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  cases, most cases, it's the woman who says we got to come
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  in, we're not close enough. We don't communicate well
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  because women are more comfortable with talk therapy in
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  general. They're more verbal.
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  They talk about feelings. They've been taking relationship
• 3:01
  quizzes since they were like 12 years old, like what kind of
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  boyfriend do you want? And like teen magazine so you
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  know they they are more psychologically minded
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  frequently. So either way women usually
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  bring the guy in. However when there's no sex then
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  the guy will bring the woman in because then it gets to the
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  level that he's you know like what the hell are we even
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  married. This is feels terrible Or if
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  she's suffering from pretty bad depression or anxiety and he
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  doesn't know how to get her into individual.
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  Sometimes we'll come into couples but and I have podcasts
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  about why men are unhappy in their marriages and why women
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  are. And those usually concord with
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  reasons that people go into counseling and you could listen
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  to those. But anyway, so one person brings
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  the other person in and the other person is, you know like
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  basically fuck you. You don't do enough for me that
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  I should even think about all of these concerns.
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  That's their original stance usually.
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  So for example, the preoccupied woman avoidant man, that's like
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  a very common pairing right? And so basically he is thinking,
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  you're always mad at me. You're always following me
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  around. This is like the podcast that I
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  just did about the preoccupied woman and the avoidant man that
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  you should have listened to before this one.
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  And he's like, why are you constantly up my ass about
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  stuff? I'm trying to have a job.
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  I'm trying to have a life. What's the problem?
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  So he comes in already feeling kind of irritated.
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  So if she the person who's the struggling one, right?
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  If if we work on, I don't know, like is this like the best way
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  to go about it with her? Like sometimes like she's
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  embarrassed because she's gotten like really out of control
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  during some of the fights. That's not uncommon.
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  So like, let's say for example, that she works on that because a
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  lot of women actually say, I don't want to lose my temper
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  like this. I know it's bad for me and I and
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  I, it's bad for the kids. It's bad for the kids.
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  That's like a big motivator. So let's say that she starts to
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  work on that and we say, listen, you know, as much of an asshole
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  as he could be, you still can't yell like that, right?
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  So what are we going to do? We're going to focus on, you
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  know, walking out of the house or calling up your mom or like
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  various coping strategies or or do you have to see an individual
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  therapist working on depression? Well, whatever.
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  Whatever. So let's say she starts to work
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  on some of that, but then he's like still kind of being like a
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  condescending, dismissing guy. Well then the therapist points
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  that out like, man, she's been doing some good work here.
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  Like you guys haven't had like a massive explosive fight in like,
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  you know, couple weeks. So what it, what's happening
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  with you? Like, have you initiated any,
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  like emotional conversations like she wants?
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  Have there been any date nights? What's going on there?
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  So he doesn't want to be the asshole, right?
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  I mean, it's pretty fairly obvious.
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  Human sort of thing is to save face.
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  So usually when one person does better and that's recognized by
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  the couples counselor, the other person's going to try to do
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  better. I've been seeing this for years
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  and years. You know, the person who
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  originally said there's no problem here, so let's switch it
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  to the other one. So the woman who doesn't want to
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  have sex, the guy drags her in. She basically says, why should I
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  have sex with you? You know, I don't want to have
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  sex. That's against what I want.
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  This is in fact coercive. And on top of it, you're not
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  very nice to me. I have all these empathic
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  ruptures that you didn't say anything nice about including.
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  I'll return to my constant example.
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  When you left overnight when I had a baby in the hospital.
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  Right. So I say, you know, oh, this is
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  terrible. And so, you know, yeah, sure.
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  I mean, who the hell would want to have sex with somebody who
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  with, you know, who left her overnight with the baby?
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  Do you feel bad about it? You know, And we're he's like,
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  well, so you she told me to go home.
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  So I say, well, this is not good.
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  And so you know, she's maybe she didn't mean it.
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  Maybe she didn't know how to talk to you.
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  How did you grow up? How did you grow up?
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  What are your expectations of marriage?
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  This, that, the other, how does this play out?
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  We talk about it, talk about, talk about it eventually.
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  Like if he's like, not a total asshole, right.
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  He's going to be like, I didn't realize that's, you know,
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  leaving was bad. If I could do it again, I would.
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  I'm so sorry. You know, I never really thought
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  about it from your perspective, Many, many guys, healthy men
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  not. We're not talking about massive
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  personality disorders in the mix.
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  We're talking about Joe Average, who's confronted with this is
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  going to say, you know what, I didn't think about it like that.
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  I was raised, let's say, to deny the importance of feelings.
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  I was raised not to have any needs.
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  We've been talking about it for a few weeks.
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  I could see the points and I'm really sorry.
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  So then, you know, goes another week or so, it's like, hey, so
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  you all having more sex? Because I mean, shit, you,
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  that's what you said was the problem, right?
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  You said that was the problem. And she's like, well, you know,
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  I mean and that they do. Ironically, that they do.
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  Because why? What did I just teach you?
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  She doesn't want to be the asshole.
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  She's so used to being the victim.
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  And of course, you know there's two victims and nobody should be
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  the victim. We could do all of that, but
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  either way, in her mind she was used to being victimized by this
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  kind of cold guy who does things like leaves her overnight in the
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  hospital by herself, right? So you get it.
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  Anybody could understand that. However, you know, Then he
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  apologizes. He doesn't have a time machine.
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  He genuinely apologizes. The first couple attempts were
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  shitty. The therapist helps him through
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  it. He's truly saying the things
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  that she has always wanted him to say.
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  So then it starts to get a little awkward.
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  You know, it's like a little embarrassing, Well shit.
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  And it's not like her desire comes flooding back or anything.
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  As I've taught you and told you, spontaneous desire is a very
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  very rare within long term monogamy, particularly after
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  dysfunction like this. Right.
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  So or really at all and so but she's never really gotten into
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  the headspace to really learn about responsive desire.
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  So then she'll say something like, well, The thing is, is I'm
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  still never in the mood. And I'll be like, Oh my God,
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  nobody is. So here's what we do about that
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  responsive desire, etcetera, etcetera.
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  Why don't you guys plan to have sex, like, you know, on Friday
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  night? So, you know, we talk about it,
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  figure out what's good for everybody's schedule and you
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  know what? 9 times out of 10 she'll try
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  Why, 'cause she doesn't want to be the asshole.
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  Because the the narrative has changed now.
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  So the narrative was previously he's an asshole.
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  And so you know, and and with the other guy, like, so if you
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  go back to the other couple, his narrative, who says she's some
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  crazy bitch, right? And so he can't get anything
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  done. He can't be close to her, He
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  can't have a normal relationship because she starts crying and
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  screaming all the time. But what about when she stops
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  and then he's still not doing nice stuff?
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  Then what we see is cognitive dissonance.
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  Well, first we see cognitive dissonance and then the person
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  tries to reduce. So cognitive dissonance
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  reduction. It's like, well, I always
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  thought that I was acting in this way that I kind of knew was
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  kind of fucked up, but I thought I could do it, you know, because
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  this person was worse, you know, was very annoying or
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  disrespectful or cold or whatever.
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  They are difficult. And so now, though the narrative
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  is changing, the therapist has acknowledged the change in my
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  partner. That was nice.
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  You know, like that that that my partner changed.
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  The therapist is saying it that it's nice.
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  And so should. I mean, it must be a change, you
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  know, for them to recognize it. Now, Now what?
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  Now I'm becoming the focus of the session because I'm not
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  changing. That's very uncomfortable.
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  So I think I should change. And that's what all goes on
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  subconsciously. And it's just like, you know,
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  with your kids, right? So if you compliment one of your
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  kids enough, the other kid is going to want the same kind of
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  compliment. So they're going to do something
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  good too. Sometimes they just destroy what
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  the other kid did. That's good.
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  You say nice tower. If they're a little toddler,
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  they'll kick over the tower, right.
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  But that we're not talking about that, you know?
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  And that does, by the way, it's, I was saying that as a joke, but
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  that happens in couples that have more of the narcissistic
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  borderline pairing. So where there are personality
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  disorders in the mix is that they will try to just deny and
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  invalidate the other person's change, even if it's like a a
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  real kind of measurable change. So like a guy who so, so like
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  and this goes along with the fearful, avoidant attachment
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  style. So let's say that a guy was
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  raised in a very, really abusive upbringing, right?
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  And so now he has traits of of personality disorder level stuff
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  like borderline or narcissistic and he can't really see things
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  clearly. It always is that he is the
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  victim somehow. So this could be with covert
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  narcissism or with borderline personality.
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  So she literally has sex with him three times in a week and
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  then he'll be like, well, that time wasn't good because I
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  actually initiated it the other time I knew you didn't want to
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  be there. And the third time you're just
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  doing it because the therapist told you to.
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  Now with that, then we need to go even deeper into people's
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  family of origin stuff and work through what their patterns are
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  and their templates and the ways that they see the world.
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  Because basically then anything the partner does they perceive
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  as still so bad somehow that they are still allowed to do
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  their their side of whatever their their dysfunctional
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  behaviour is, right? And so that needs to go much
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  deeper. And both people probably do also
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  need to have individual work. But either way, it's not going
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  to work as straightforwardly as it is for people who, you know,
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  are more mentally stable. And so for people like the
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  average couple that is struggling, just literally being
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  uncomfortable, that, uh, oh, now you're the one who's not trying
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  as much as your partner is. That is very, very helpful.
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  And this is like a positive competitive vibe.
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  And it can lead to this virtuous cycle where things get better
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  and better and better and so, yeah, of course you could say,
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  but that's like a shitty reason. That's not, like a real good,
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  like, heartwarming reason for therapy to start working.
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  Yeah, like, neither is like bribing your kids like to do,
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  like, anything, which of course all of us have done in one way
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  or another. So like, does your kid really
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  have to want to pee in the potty?
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  No. You know, like they could do it
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  for an M&M for sure. And then eventually, of course,
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  they want to be in the body. Like that just becomes a thing
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  that they do. So at first is the same sort of
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  thing applies at first. Your partner could just try to
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  get better because they don't want to be the one.
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  In couples counseling that's looked at like the asshole at
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  first, but then certainly over time they see the benefits of
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  doing it. They start to fall in love again
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  because they're both acting better and they're both
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  genuinely trying. Remember, this is not mutually
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  exclusive with have developing genuine insight and awareness
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  and really like, you know, like a wider perspective empathy,
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  like all of the things that we're trying to cultivate, can
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  be cultivated right alongside this kind of vague discomfort
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  and cognitive dissonance when you are no longer the the victim
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  because your partner's really trying.
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  And by the way, this doesn't just happen once.
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  This can happen over the course of couples counseling, you know,
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  over a while. So then let's say they get up to
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  where they're having sex every week and he's also planning date
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  nights. Well then, well then what?
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  Well, then there's probably other things.
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  You know, there's probably parenting issues and there's
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  probably money issues and there's probably this or that.
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  So I say, you know, she always wants you to sit down and make a
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  budget. Can you make a budget?
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  Well, I can make a budget because blah, blah, blah, blah,
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  blah. And she's always out spending it
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  anyway. So what's the point.
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  So if she promises not to out to not spend for X amount, then
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  will you sit down and make a budget?
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  Well, then she does it right and then he's got to make a budget
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  kind of you know or like whatever the case may be.
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  And this is the budget thing is a common thing.
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  People argue about making a budget, having a budget.
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  Who should do decide the budget? Well how many times should we
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  redo the budget? The budget is a big one.
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  So, and I talk about financial stuff and money stuff in other
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  episodes to, you know, to go into depth on that if you're
• 14:53
  interested. But anyway, I thought this was
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  an interesting way to think about it.
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  And a lot of people are like, oh, what do you even do in
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  couples counseling? You know, is it just we sit
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  there and we vent? No, there's like, there's
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  certainly plenty of things that you do.
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  I mean basic cognitive behavioral therapy, emotionally
• 15:08
  focused therapy, there's Imago, I mean there's principles of
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  everything. And and I'm more into the idea
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  of of using kind of what applies and what is relevant to the
• 15:17
  individual couple than doing some cookie cutter approach
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  that's just within one sort of treatment modality like EFT only
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  or like whatever. I'm not as into that.
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  But the the point here is there's also very, very
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  interesting dynamics that arise just from two people sitting in
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  front of somebody whom they respect that they have
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  accountability toward. You know, it.
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  It doesn't have to be that everything is out of deep love
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  for one another. By the time you get to couples
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  counseling, you're probably not feeling deep love for one
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  another on the regular, right? That's the problem.
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  So you need some kind of external help there to get
• 15:55
  motivated. And and this is 1 interesting
• 15:57
  thing that I have found over the years.
• 15:59
  All right. I I hope that you guys found
• 16:00
  this as interesting as I did. Again, please do subscribe and I
• 16:04
  will talk to you all soon. Have a great day guys.