Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / Dating Radar: How HCPs Jam Your Radar
Transcript
- Megan Hunter: Welcome to It's All Your Fault on TruStory FM, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those that are with people with high conflict personalities. I'm Megan Hunter, and I'm here with my co-host, Bill Eddy. Bill Eddy: Hi everybody. Megan Hunter: We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute based in San Diego, California. And in today's episode, we are going to continue our series on love and romance, which probably doesn't seem very linked up to high conflict personalities, but it actually is because we're talking about the darker side of love when it comes to high conflict personalities. In fact, this is all about dating radar. So in this episode, we're going to focus on how high conflict people jam your radar. But first, a few quick reminders. We'd love to hear from you about your high conflict love, or lack of. Just kidding. Have you dealt with someone with a high conflict personality, been a target of blame, experienced violence or abuse from an HCP, or maybe you simply dread seeing that person again, but probably have to tonight at home or tomorrow at work, or maybe across the street in your neighborhood? So send us your questions and we just might discuss them on the show. You can submit them by clicking the submit a question button at our website, highconflictinstitute.com/podcast, emailing us at podcast@highconflictinstitute.com, or dropping us a note on any of our socials. You can find all of the show notes and links at highconflictinstitute.com/podcast as well. Make sure you subscribe, rate, and review, and please tell all your friends about us. Telling just one person that you like the show and where they can find us is the best way you can help us out and help more people really learn how to address high conflict people. We appreciate that very much. We appreciate you very much. And now let's talk about dating radar. We started this series by talking about people with high conflict personalities and the five high conflict personality types that you might want to avoid in love and romance. We talked about the narcissistic, borderline, histrionic, paranoid, and antisocial high conflict personalities. Today, we are moving on to talk about how these folks jam your love radar. In other words, why are we blind? We're all pretty intelligent people and we have a lot of common sense, right? So how do we end up in relationships that are so damaging and destructive? Our culture romanticizes the notion of a blind, headlong rush into love, one in which we follow our hearts and trust in destiny. We're proposing a new culture that approaches relationships with eyes wide open, one that isn't driven by love blindness, sexual blindness, or any other type of blindness, so we have to maintain a healthy skepticism. We're going to talk about those today and go through some of the survey results from a survey we conducted a few years ago in order to support our theories. We wanted to do this survey and include it in our book so that what we're talking about would make some sense, we'd have some context. Was it really true? Are our theories true? And sure enough, the survey results really supported what we had theorized. So one of the questions was I think one of the most interesting, and it's about that spark. You know when you feel that spark when you meet that person and you think, "Oh, I found my soulmate," right? Because that spark is the most wonderful thing we ever feel in the whole world, in our whole lifetime. It's just amazing. So it tricks us into thinking this person is the one. And often in our work in the divorce field, that's one of the things we hear, is, "I was so in love with this person. There was just the spark. It was amazing, and then it didn't turn out to be so amazing." So we asked the question in the survey, "Did you and your partner have an immediate or nearly immediate spark when you met?" And the answer was overwhelmingly yes, at 77.49% affirmative responses, and 22.5% said no. So Bill, what's that about? Bill Eddy: Well, let me start with saying, when you think about cultures with arranged marriages, such as India and such, what's amazing is people don't even know each other, so there's no spark there because they don't even know each other. And yet they have a fairly successful rate of marriages and people growing to love each other and people getting to know each other and building a relationship together. So the spark is really a myth in terms of a measure of who you should date, who you should marry, and yet it's very much part of our culture. And you think of music, you think of songs, you think of movies, and it's all about spark. Now, I don't want to say spark isn't great, but it shouldn't be the decision-maker. And what's fascinating is how many people leave their decisions up to that spark. So what's interesting with high conflict people is they work hard to earn a spark. And so you have the antisocial personality who knows how to manipulate emotions and how to get you to fall in love with them, the image that they want to present, which is often totally untrue but very exciting. You think of somebody like Bernie Madoff in the financial field, and he just charmed people out of billions of dollars. And a lot of people said he had an antisocial personality. So that kind of example. But the other high conflict personalities, too, tend to have a sugar coating at the beginning. And they're excited to convince you to fall in love with them, and they may actually feel some degree of romance themselves, but the problem is that that's not what you should base the decisions on, and that that often is an exaggeration to cover up the other side, which you're going to see sooner and later, as we mentioned in the last podcast. Megan Hunter: I find the spark to be really a fascinating thing because it is so tricky, and it really does jam the radar because it feels so amazing, and we want to go with those feelings, especially if we're lonely. And we'll talk about that in the next episode, like why? Why do we get involved in these? But the spark is really one of the biggest things that jams your radar, and you kind of fall blindly in love. And it is kind of a cultural expectation. So hopefully if you're listening to this, you pay attention to that spark and really see it more as a red flag than a sign to go on, or maybe not a red flag, but a yellow flag to a least slow down and investigate, and as you said, Bill, to not rely on that as your indicator of wonderful things to come. Bill Eddy: Let me add something here, and that is, except for the antisocial personality, I think most of the other high conflict personalities believe in the spark themselves and that they also deceive themselves. So it isn't like they've made a calculated plan to manipulate you. People, say, with borderline personality disorder really can fall heavily in love with someone, but they don't realize that this isn't a good measure, and they don't understand themselves either. And so narcissist, borderline, histrionic, paranoid really may sincerely have that experience, but it's not a good measure. And it's not something they're calculating, it's something they just do, even just being unaware of it. So don't assume we're applying evil intent when people have that spark with you. They just may not realize. Megan Hunter: If it's a great spark, if it ends up a great relationship, then it's a wonderful spark. Bill Eddy: Yeah. Yeah. Megan Hunter: So let's talk about the power of desperation. We talk about the spark, we talk about attraction, but there's also desperation, and that can jam our radar as well. We've all had that friend who we know is just desperate to get married, and you see them getting hurt over and over in relationships because they're desperate. And then you combine that with the fascination with weddings. Right now, I guess the last decade or so, weddings have become the be all and end all, and the goal of so many to have this ginormous wedding. So they're focused on that instead of paying attention to these signs that they may be in a bad relationship with an HCP. So desperation is jamming your radar. Bill Eddy: We have our own emotions. High conflict people tend to be driven more by their emotions. The average person is more balanced, but during dating and romance is when we kind of throw care to the wind and really like that excitement, the chemistry of romance, et cetera. So if we're desperate, we're more likely to make these bad decisions, and then we have to deal with the bad decision. And so you can bounce from bad decision to clean-up work, like getting divorced or something, into a new bad decision. One thing that I want to mention here is, people who've gotten divorced, sometimes it gives them wisdom for new dating, and sometimes they're quickly letting that desperation take over again. I think of a man who I helped get divorced, and he may have had some borderline personality traits, and his ex-wife may have had some borderline personality traits. But a week after the divorce was finalized and the divorce date, I got a call from him, and he said he had a question about something. And then he said, "Oh, and by the way, I should tell you that I just got married again." And I was like, "How could you do that without getting my approval?" But he never looked for that. So I think desperation, even people who've already been married, you got to watch out for that. Megan Hunter: Very true. We talked a bit in the previous episode, in the beginning of this dating radar series, about the qualities that attract us to HCPs, and really this is a list, essentially, of other things that do jam our radar, such as charm, right? Charm is very engaging, and it's energetic, and it makes us feel very special. And that's what some HCPs are very, very good at, is making you feel special now. And then later, the tides turn. And I always think about the little cartoon we show in our trainings, Bill, with the cat walking along, obviously a cartoon cat because he's up on his back legs, and he's pulling behind him a little wagon. And there's a mouse in the wagon, and he's just riding happily along and like, "Wow, this cat's giving me a ride." And there's a little mouse over on the side of the road, yelling kind of secretly without the cat seeing him to the other mouse in the wagon, saying, "Think, stupid. Why is he being so nice to you?" Bill Eddy: Exactly. Megan Hunter: And I've been that mouse in the car, so I really do understand that charm, but eventually you're going to get something very different. And some of the comments in the survey, "He was prince charming. He was my white knight in shining armor at first." "He blended well with my family." This is a different person. "Charmed the pants off of them, vowed to take great care of me and to love me like a man should. Basically told my parents what they wanted to hear, and me too." Another one. "She seemed to be really interested in me and everything about me. She focused in on me with laser-like intensity. I was thrilled because she made me feel that I was very special and that I was very important to her." And then the last one. "He was a complete charmer during those five of dating. He bought me gifts and took me on expensive dates. I found out after we were married that he couldn't really afford any of those things." So some of these may seem a little bit mild, but taken together, if this person really, truly is a high conflict personality, it does get worse. And I've seen these situations. I can recall a relationship, an engaged couple, and they were both just very talented, smart, beautiful people, and they had wonderful jobs, and things were great at first. And I observed that over time, things just didn't add up, and soon, one of them was cheating on the other even though they were engaged. And just so many things didn't add up, like the one partner saying, "Oh, I don't want a big wedding, but my family does. I just don't like people looking at me," although she dressed very seductively and flirted all the time with men. It didn't add up, and eventually she really ended up crushing her partner after they got married. So there were a lot of signs that I started to see along the way, and this was before I was even very familiar with high conflict personalities. But I saw this pattern of charm, and no one would've ever believed that she was capable of this, but when things didn't add up, they didn't add up. Bill Eddy: And you can't tell on the surface, and that's a lot of what we're talking about here. You got to take some time and get to know the person, and also know the warning signs to look for. And I think that's one thing I want to emphasize, is we're not saying that you should just be paranoid of all relationships. We're talking- Megan Hunter: Really? We're not? Just kidding. Bill Eddy: Definitely not. And so we're talking about maybe 10% of people being high conflict people. That's a significant number, but we're really talking about being smart, not being paranoid. Megan Hunter: Right. Yeah. I guess dating intelligence, dating IQ, HCP IQ. Bill Eddy: Yeah. Megan Hunter: So another thing that jams our radars is this compatibility. And you look at the dating sites, and back in the day it was eHarmony and Match.com and some of those, and I know there are a ton more that I've never even seen these days. But I recall seeing the advertisements for some, and it was, "Look, we match you based on compatibility." And I'm screaming in my head, "No. No." Because you shouldn't be just looking at that. It's wonderful to be in a relationship that is compatible and you share similar interests, but if it's an HCP, they're going to use that to jam your radar, right? Bill Eddy: What we find, and I think you're getting at this, is this fake compatibility where someone figures out what you're interested in and then takes that on with their own persona. So whether it's bird watching or bowling or similar movies or whatever it is, one thing is to find out historically, have they been interested in this? And that's good if you can talk to other family members or friends and say something like, "Did he ever mention bird watching? When did he first get interested in that?" And they'll go, "What? He was never interested in that." You go, "Okay. Thanks." Megan Hunter: Yeah. He hates birds. Bill Eddy: Yeah. Megan Hunter: He was into motorcycle riding. Bill Eddy: Yeah. Megan Hunter: Right. So a few of the comments from the survey. "With made-up stories, he marketed himself well. He found out what I valued, and he really became that until he decided not to anymore. Over the years, the stories started to not make sense. It took no effort for me to gain his immediate agreement to things that were important to me, but that other people I had dated were unable to be flexible about." Another one. "Agreed to quickly to change a few habits that I could not live with and told me that it was no big deal. Those habits meant nothing to her. Years later, I found out she'd been lying about complying." There we go. Lying about comply. So that's one, and then another thing that can jam the radar is overt sexuality and sensuality. And this one's a little tricky because with some HCPs, the sexuality factor is zero to 60 in no time flat, and they can really jam your radar with that before you get to know them. These days, people are really hooking up way too early and maybe thinking of it casually, but maybe it turns into something a little bit longer term. And if it's with an HCP, this can be very damaging because you're already hooked. Right? You're already in and your radar is jammed. Bill Eddy: Yeah. One thing that especially women say is, "I wanted him to like me. I liked him, so even though I didn't want to have sex yet, I figured I better go ahead because I don't want to lose him." Well, the thing is, if he's someone that you don't want to lose and you're not going to lose, you should be able to say what you do want and what you don't want. And so being able to say no is often a good test of the health of a relationship. And one of the things that's a problem, there's a survey I was listening to the other day about college campuses and hooking up, and there's a lot of hooking up on college campuses. Megan Hunter: Really? Bill Eddy: Yes. Surprise, surprise. Megan Hunter: Surprise, surprise. Bill Eddy: But it really seems to be some gender differences in terms of women feeling that, "I thought we had more going," and some men. And so it's so vague. What are the rules? What are the boundaries? And that you almost have to show how uninterested you are so you don't seem to be interested in this too much. And it's so confusing. I'm glad I'm not a college student today. Megan Hunter: Oh, for sure. Bill Eddy: I'm also glad I've been happily married for a few decades, so that saves with this. But I think the reality is, it's a very confusing time, and the bottom line is, do what you want and pay attention to your needs, and if the partner isn't going to stand for that, that's not a partner that's going to be good for you. Megan Hunter: Because let's say you're having sex with an antisocial personality. They're just doing it for the domination and the conquest, and once they have charmed their way into it, they often are just done with it. They're done with you, right? Bill Eddy: Yes. There's a lot of stories of antisocial men, but also some women. Antisocial women exist. Maybe 25% of antisocials are female. And that their goal is to have sex with you and then they're gone. And it still shocks people when that happens, and it's a surprise. But with this knowledge, people can be more like, "Does anybody know this person? Does anybody know this person's history?" Et cetera. Megan Hunter: And that's a really good point, Bill, because we take so much on face value. And I know people spend more time now researching on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram, and there's so much that can be seen, and there's a good side to that because you can find some things out about people, but people can do the same thing on social media that they do in person, and that's putting out false information. So you have to be careful with that as well. Another aspect of this jamming the radar is protectiveness, which is a very powerful quality if you're looking for someone to rescue you from your past, let's say an abusive childhood or some other traumatic experiences, or even from your present, like a recent bad relationship. Some of us sort of have this notion of a prince charming and it's wonderful to be protected. And I, for one, am a big fan of being protected as a woman. I love being married to a man who protects me. It makes me feel safer and loved, essentially. But with HCPs, this is one of those areas that can be really tricky. When they are very protective in the beginning, you need to take a step back and see if it's real or not. Is it going to sustain? Is this a person who does this all the time? Bill Eddy: Yeah, I think something to watch out for is the person who comes on strong, like, "Oh, I'll take care of you. I'll be your knight in shining armor. I'll do this." It's like, why are they advertising protectiveness? And often, HCPs advertise how protective and responsible they'll be because they're not going to be. And it's almost like they're selling you on this, but they're not going to come through. And frankly, one of the best ways to deal with this is not need protection, is be a whole person and feel that you can protect yourself with your own ways you run your life, people around you, family, friends etc. So if someone says, "Oh, I'll protect you from everything," you go, "Hm. I don't really need that. I'm not sure why they're saying that so strongly." And this can be men and women. The knight in shining armor could be a woman who says, "I'm going to nurture you and help you through those childhood wounds. I'm the one that can do this for you." And watch out for volunteer protectors. It's often not a reality. Megan Hunter: Interesting. Watch out for those VPs. So some of the comments in the survey about protectiveness was... The first one is, "Took care of me and provided for me in ways my family never did." So there you were, jammed their radar, or his. Another one. "I couldn't shake her and mistook things like stalking for love. Stalking, sometimes protective. It was the initial dream of how well she treated me in the beginning that I hoped would come back." And then another one that supports what you were talking about with prince charming. "This person had that prince charming quality. He wanted to take care of me and be me knight in shining armor. When the dust settled and the honeymoon was over, I was faced with a mentally disturbed and violent man with a very violent and abusive past." These types of men are master manipulators and pathological liars, so you have to do your homework no matter what. Go online. Look through social media. Really dig in. You can Google someone's name, and if you know what state they lived in, look for any police records. Honestly, a lot of information is there that we think isn't there or we haven't even thought about. So the more research you do, the better. And sometimes you won't find anything, and they still could be high conflict, but sometimes it's very obvious, because it's high conflict people who are going to be the ones getting in trouble, criminal trouble, domestic violence trouble. And those records are often online, so just do your homework. And I like to think of it as if I were telling my best friend or my sister or my brother, someone I truly care about and love, and I want them to have the very best partner in life. I would want them to look out for all these things, but we're often not willing to do the same for ourselves. And this is why we get our radar jammed. So look out for yourself. Love yourself enough. And like you said, Bill, be a whole person. If you don't know how to be a whole person and what that means, go to a therapist and talk about it. It's okay. Learn some new skills. Get some increased self-esteem, things like that, but take care of yourself. Love yourself enough to have dating radar. And now let's move on to some of the other, quote unquote, attractive qualities of high conflict people. We asked in the survey for people just to write in comments about what were these attractive qualities. So I want you to listen to this list, it's really pretty fascinating, and to think about what your impression is. Highly intelligent. This was the most often mentioned comment. Extremely caring and gentle. Does that comport with even the term high conflict personality? Really doesn't, does it? Bill Eddy: It does on the surface. Megan Hunter: There it is. Bill Eddy: That's the thing. Watch out. And these may be good qualities that many people have, but have your healthy skepticism, and like Megan said, check things out. Don't just assume one quality is the ticket. There's no one quality. It's the whole big picture. That's what you want to get. Megan Hunter: Right. Kind, considerate, and caring. Gentle personality, easygoing, shared faith and interests. Appearance, physical attraction. That can be a big one. Interest in similar activities. Generous, funny, exciting, passionate, similar lifestyles and approach to the day. Life of the party. There it is. Financially secure, organized, successful, shared commitment to a cause. Athletic. Took care of me, took interest in me, was there for me all the time, honest and honorable and trustworthy. So what's striking about this list is that these are, like you said, Bill, also common terms people use to describe how their healthy and happy relationships begin. So it's just about being aware, having your radar out, and always be looking for these signs. We don't want to be mistrustful of people, but we want to have our radar on for sure. Bill Eddy: Let me just add to this. One of the most impressive things of our survey feedback was the person who said, "Watch out for someone who's a 10 on a scale of one to 10." Said that, "The 10s usually aren't really realistic. It's not true. Look for a seven or an eight, someone who's got these good qualities, but they're not perfect. They're not over the top. They don't really sweep you off your feet." And I thought that was really good advice, that the seven or eight may be real, and the 10 may actually be your HCP in disguise. Megan Hunter: So we might not have had to write this book. It was a lot of work. I mean, it all was summed up pretty much in that- Bill Eddy: Yeah. Megan Hunter: ... one statement. So just a couple quick tips here. Number one, maintain a healthy skepticism, and we've kind of harped on that already. But number two, watch for extremes. And I know, Bill, you talk about this a lot, and we noticed how common extreme compatibility was in our survey. And so we just put the word extremely in front of the four highest rated qualities to watch out for, which is extremely charming, extremely compatible, extremely sexual or sensual, extremely protective. If it's extreme, possible red flag. The third is, take your time. We'll repeat this over and over. Know someone at least six months before you get financially entangled, romantically entangled, move in together, get married, get engaged, have a child together, because these high conflict signs will come out probably in six months, but for sure within a year. If you're paying attention, probably in six months. If you're interested in reading more of these, we have a whole list in here of the different signs that people said to watch for in dating relationships, and I think you might really learn and enjoy reading some of those. So just be aware. Do your research, talk to friends and family, pay attention to your gut feelings if something seems amiss, and take your time. Despite looking really good for several months, within approximately a year, most HCPs really have shown their full range of behavior. So that wraps up the episode on how HCPs jam your radar. And in next week's episode, we'll continue with this dating radar series, and we'll talk about how to identify your own blind spots. So whether you've been in one of these relationships or you're dating now and you're trying to figure out how, can I get better at this, you'll want to listen. And you'll find a link to the survey and the results in the show notes, along with a link to the dating radar book. Until next week, take care. And we'd love to have you along next week, and we'd love it if you could give us a review about our episodes and about our podcast. We'd just love that. So keep making peace happen, and we'll see you next week. It's All Your Fault is a production of TruStory FM. Engineering by Andy Nelson, music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins, and Ziv Moran. Find the show, show notes, and transcripts at trustory.fm or highconflictinstitute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.