Latest / Sleeping Barber - A Marketing Podcast / SBP 244: SBP Interview - If You’re Not Selling Hours, What Are You Selling?

Transcript

SBP 244: SBP Interview - If You’re Not Selling Hours, What Are You Selling? · Sleeping Barber - A Marketing Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Sleeping Baba podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_06: People are saying it's the worst possible time to get into our business.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_06: AI's gonna take all of our jobs, and so on and so on.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_06: The best time to retire is actually.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_06: I think it's the more fun I've had in my career so far.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_06: Because the cost barrier isn't there.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_06: The reason why agency didn't build it is because they couldn't, it was super expensive.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Sleeping Barber Podcast, a place for business leaders to get the best and most credible information on marketing, strategy, and innovation.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Your hosts, Mark Bakley and Vasilia Stuart, share their experiences as they gather inside the world's leading experts.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Now, on with the show.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to the Sleeping Barber.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: I recently read a piece online from Arthur Fleischman, who co-founded St.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: John and later ran over to Canada.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: He argued that the agency of the future looks a bit more like a barbell than a pyramid.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: So senior people at one end, people running AI agents at the other, and almost nothing in the middle.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so we'll come back to that.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: But ultimately, whether it's a barbell or an inverted pyramid or any shape you choose, agencies are changing how they work.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like a lot of service businesses, AI is changing creative and copy reproduce and how we go to market.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Clients expect things faster.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that's forcing a lot of hard questions about the models that most agencies still run on.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so we today we've got a great conversation lined up with a couple of brilliant women.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Melanie Dunn is the president of the PUS company Canada Cassette, uh part of the Global Agency Network, CEO of Cassette, and one of Canada's best-known agencies.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: We've been there for more than 20 years and led it for about a decade, from what I understand.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then a blast from VI passed Karin Court March.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, Courtman is how I pronounce it.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_06: That's a challenge, eh?
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_06: Toughest name to pronounce in the industry.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: This is the EVP of the plus company, Canon, president of its media group.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Strategy magazine named uh Karin, Media Leader of the Year in 2024, and just finished her chair time as chair of the Canadian Media Directors Council and the industry body for media agencies in Canada.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to both of you.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: Karin, we have the last time I saw you was in Cannes two years ago.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_06: I love dropping that in a conversation.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_06: Looks so good.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_06: That happens all the time.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: If there's not Rose in one hand, then it's not even worth meeting.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_06: It's either that or the boar at the airport in Calgary.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_06: We we did the last pat quite often there back in the days.
• 2:40
  unknown: Yeah.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_05: Too true, too true.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, we're so excited to have this conversation with both of you.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Melanie, let's start with you.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: This real softball question, uh, just to tease.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: Easy way.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: What is the role of a modern agency?
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_07: The role of a modern agency, wow, there's a lot of things to unpack here.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_07: If you take it from the client perspective, let's start with the client perspective.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_07: I like to be client-centric.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_07: I think what they're expecting of their agency partner has changed a lot, like in the past decade.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_07: You referred to what Archer shared, you know, uh in a post, which is very interesting.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_07: But of course, first off, uh, I think the brief is about the outcome way more than anything else, right?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_07: So I think that they expect that we, as a partner, mobilize every every lever we have at our disposition so we meet their objective.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_07: So that's a different perspective on how we crack problems.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_07: It calls for more integration.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, we are moving away from the linear end of strategy to creative to production, right?
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_07: So we work more as an ecosystem of different disciplines, and we have the chance to be a high powered now.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_07: So I wouldn't say AI first.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_07: I think that's an that's a bit of an outdated concept, right?
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_07: But that's the first thing I think that changed on what we expect from agency.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_07: I think that there's also something that we don't discuss enough, but that changed dramatically over the past five to ten years, which is a bit more soft skills than, you know, obviously rebuilding your workflows and being like that agency as a software partner, which is everything that, you know, emerged during the pandemic, and it's probably the positive legacies of some social justice movements.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_07: Um, but we are finally asked to confront some of the diversity and bias issues we are having as an industry.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_07: And we don't talk much about that, especially in those days.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_07: So I'm just gonna like leave that here.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_07: Um, but you know, everything that has to do with diversity.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_07: So cassette, as an example, we couldn't market probably a billion worth of content in a year, so which is massive for Canada.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_07: So for those who are listening to the podcast from abroad, right?
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_07: Canada is a small market, a billion worth a lot.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_07: It means that cassette is very influential with the work it puts out there.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_07: Uh so we're almost like signaling what's what's a normal family, what's what's you know, what's Canada today, what is normal behaviors.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, and that comes with a responsibility.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_07: So there's a couple of things that changed and what the expectations are when being inclusive creativity thinking, right?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_07: To make sure your teams are, you know, don't procretor any bias, stereotypes, you know, what they do.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_07: So it means that you need to change the way you cast, to change your filter work, and then everything ESG related.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_07: Um, I mean, Cahim's building an offering in media that allows you to reduce your scope to remission, which is completely new and different, right, from what is expected from a media partner.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_07: But you know, there's ways to choose your creative assets and do your channel planning.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_07: So it reduces what you send in data centers and then reduce energy consumption.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_07: So we talk a lot about AI and new models and stuff like that, but there's also a few other things that change completely on what is expected of us.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_07: So I just thought it was interesting to bring that different perspective.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_07: I didn't speak of supply chain, but you know, to buy local is also a challenge when you should clients, right?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_07: You need to change your own supply chain and who you give business to.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_07: And in return, the G and E actually calls at points at times that our clients are selecting all agencies.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_07: So there's a lot that changed.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_07: It's a complex environment right now.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: It is extremely complex product placement.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_07: Don't worry, I'm doing my product placement.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: You're right, Melanie.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: It is quite complex.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, Corinne, we're gonna throw the next question here to you.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: One of the biggest things that I've also noticed is as clients, we're looking for technology partners as well.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: And Corinne, you said this a few years ago yourself that media agencies are going to become technology partners.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: Have you seen that really come to fruition based on you know current client roster?
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: What are what is the thing that clients really are are are buying today than maybe that they didn't 10, 15 years ago?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_06: There's two interesting aspects to this question.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_06: The first one is what they're buying, and the second part of the question is how they're buying it.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_06: So I'm I'm gonna start with what they're buying.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_06: If you look at what clients are asking for in a pitch, I think they wanna buy a system more than ever before.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_06: A system of connected tools.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_06: It can be tools on that that we provide to them, proprietary tools.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_06: It's more often than not, they're looking for connectivity within their own tools.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_06: So if a client has Salesforce as as their CDP, they'll be looking for an agency with Salesforce experience so that we can leverage their data and they that are talking.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_06: Um so this experience working with very specific technologies is is something we didn't see in the market before.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_06: And so they're also looking more for customization.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_06: So it it used to be show me your tools, I'll decide if I like it or not.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_06: Nowadays they're looking more for I would like to add this feature, I would like to use it for this purpose.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_06: I like the tool, but I'm gonna be using only the first half of it.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_06: The second half I don't want to be paying for it.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_06: So this ability to customize not only our services and our team, but our tools to them, that that's something that's been um emerging for for the last couple of years.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_06: I'm I'm I'm gonna say for for sure.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_06: Um however, clients haven't shifted the way they are accessing these tools.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_06: And and that's that's something when I made that quote a couple of years ago, I didn't see coming.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_06: And I thought people would welcome licensing fees, and and they would be more more way more easier than it's been to shift away from hourly rates and time spent and and to start selling licenses and fees.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_06: But there it's it's it's it's slowly, very slowly happening.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_06: So I I think the shift, we've only seen the tip of the iceberg because the clients are still expecting to pay for hourly rates and and a pool of hours that that they give to us and try to move away from the licensing things.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_06: So I I would say it's two-speed.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_06: Uh when when when you date, you talk a lot about your tools, but when time's come to sign a deal, uh you go back to the old ways very quickly.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: There's the idea of like billable hours is sort of a common thing within all media.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: And you talked about this idea of you know potentially changing from that.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: And and what is like what like what for either of you guys, I guess, what is the what is the I guess the ultimate thing that people are paying for?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's value-based models that you've seen out there, there's outcome-based models, there's price-based or sorry, uh, performance-based models.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: But then there's also like this idea of emerging products coming out that agencies are starting to build more and more.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: And and I'm just kind of wondering how that changes how you operate an agency and the way that you need to, you know, if it's not a barbell to come back to that, what is the the right model that supports this new revenue opportunity for or for agencies?
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, there's a couple of things I'd like to discuss.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_07: And I'd like to go back to the barbell and the pyramid and how, you know, we grow talent in the industry in that new era.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_07: That's an interesting concept.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_07: But you know, in the prep work, you were talking of, you know, clients asking for a rebate when it comes to AI, creative assets and stuff like that.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_07: And there's nothing new there, right?
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_07: So I've been in the industry for decades, and clients have been asking for rebates, building ROI and commission at the time, back in the old days, right?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_07: So that's how we do run a business property.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_07: I think it's just normal.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_07: And by the way, we do the same with our own vendors, right?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_07: So that's part of being efficient.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, procurement teams, I think, are getting a bit more familiar with the possibilities here, and we're having more meaningful conversation with them when trying to build that rate card with them.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_07: Uh so that's totally fair and okay.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_07: I think, but the real friction right now is the industry is finally getting closer to a full pivot from fees and the possibility of being outcome-based.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_07: We've never been that close to be outcome-based than now, but we haven't complete our pivot.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_07: So we're still asked, you know, to be billing based on hours, Class Plus, FTEs.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_07: But on the flip end, we know of the possibilities to have like AI-enabled workflows and to be able to deliver based on outcome, but there's no real concrete examples yet of you know, big ad scale clients sourcing that way.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_07: And I think that's a challenge for us and for clients.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_07: For us, it means that we need to continue to carry the legacy model in our in our operation, but we need to get ready for the next model, which is a completely different skill set, ways of operating, ways of building and reconciling costs.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, and to Karin's point, you know, we can totally try to find an hybrid where you still AFTEs as an example are ours, but at least us at scale, we need to carry over a lot of different other entrants and costs.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, so at scale, you need to count the cloud costs, you need to cut think of the platform costs, you need to think of how we integrate those costs together, how we integrate with the current system.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_07: And that just don't go away.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_07: It goes into our margins.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_07: So I think that as an industry, we need to come to the table and decide on how we want to tackle this next challenge.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_07: So it's fair for everyone.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, no one wants to struggle and all of a sudden there's no competition out there.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_07: On the flip end, we want to still be relevant and fair with the way we charge our clients.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_07: So it's an interesting period and it goes fast, so we need to find it very quickly, right?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_06: If I may add to that, I think it's the biggest myth that the agency doesn't want to move to an outcome model.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_06: I haven't talked to a single leader who hasn't tried it or would want to do it.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_06: But as soon as you move away from this legacy model, there's some risk involved.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_06: And that's human nature.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_06: Humans don't like risk.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_06: And it's a shared risk.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_06: It's a risk that we would take with the clients.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_06: There might be downside, but there might be upside.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_06: And and most of the discussions end up being we don't want to pay more, we want to have the opportunity to pay less, but should this work, we don't want to pay more.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_06: We have a product which we're not the only ones to have.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_06: A lot of other agencies have it as well, which is called KPI guarantee.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_06: So you decide, do I want to pay you per leads?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_06: Do I want to pay you per point of increase in your awareness?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_06: You set up the KPI, and we're only paid if we achieve that KPI.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_06: I think we sold three in a year.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_06: We have hundreds of clients.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_06: And and and at first the ideas, people like the idea, but as soon as it gets a bit deeper in the negotiation and you get to procurement, and then oh well, it could cost me more than it did last year.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_06: Um that that's where we usually hit a wall in the negotiations, and then it's it doesn't go through.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_06: Also.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_06: So it's it's a journey, it's not as easy as it seems, but uh people are looking at us thinking agency's the one do it.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_06: But in my experience, it's been the opposite.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_07: And that brings in a challenge, which is like in any risk model, we need the volume, right, to mitigate the risk.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_07: So because that finds you successful and in other times, well, you take the hit.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_07: But we cannot just like have 5% of our business that's you know at risk because we have no room for the ups and downs.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_07: So that's why I say, well, we need to completely pivot.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_07: So finally there's enough volume and a systemic approach to sourcing on our client side so we can handle that sustainably, you know, on our end.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_06: I'm sure it's been it's been discussed with other of your guests in the past.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_06: So uh how how do you feel the industry is is open now to alternative costing models?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's an it's a very interesting question.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I guess I've never been asked on our podcast these questions, but like I'm I'll I'm happy to take a take uh take a stab at this.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: The the the reality of the situation is a lot of organizations need predictability.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: We know we're all kind of going through some very difficult times.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh there's been a lot of pressurization on our AMP spend.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I think at the end of the day, you want to be finance wants us to be as predictable as possible, and they can't really deal because they're, you know, they're preparing and a quarter results and things like that.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I think I can see the why people get nervous.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, you get kind of get cold feet as you kind of get closer.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: When I think a lot of marketers would relish something like that to say, no, no, no, let's because then it keeps it has that co-shared accountability, everyone's in it to win it, like for for obvious reasons.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of things to like in that model.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think it just comes down to the lack of predictability that the organizations need, especially the publicly traded ones, when they're you know reporting to shareholder groups and and things to that effect.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's why we haven't seen it maybe take off the way many would have assumed, because I think you're both right.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: I think there is a lot of interest in how a model like that would work overall.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_07: I totally agree with you, uh, Vasiliz.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_07: And uh there's also that you know idea of, okay, so then let's start with that that part of the bestness.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_07: Let's let's just like to with with you know that tiny piece.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_07: But again, so the tiny piece is so tiny that we cannot take risks with you guys because actually there's like it's an isolated part of the operation, but there are all sorts of interns that you know would have a performance.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_07: So it's a catch 22.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_07: You know, we want to start slow because of the productivity issue, but the reality is that we need to be all in, so we really take the risks altogether.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_07: So not sure where it's gonna end.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_07: There will be a pivot soon, but not yet.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I think you'll be able to do that.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_06: That was a really good answer when it's the question.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_06: I'll turn it back to you.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_06: You're gonna turn it back.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_06: Okay, I got you.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: Mark, Mark, you're next.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I was just gonna throw in the other part about the I think that everybody wants outcome-based models.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: The other part that's a reality of the outcome-based model, though, is that there needs to be some accountability, like a media mix model of some type that accounts for all the factors that goes into it and properly weights, the factors that delivers the output.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: And and a lot of those factors aren't necessarily just the advertising components.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then it just the complexity of showing that becomes also a bit of a stumbling block as you try and uncover things like you talked about supply chain before, but what is the stocking moves?
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: The pricing, the competitors, the promotions, the weather, the like whatever the factors are that go into what else impacts your outcomes.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_07: Even geopolitics like is an in the mind trained.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_06: We we talked about a system of tools that is connected, and that that's all about finding this one single source of truth.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_06: And quite often it starts with the attribution and uh poor Mel, we don't want to turn this podcast into a media podcast.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_07: But I love it.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_07: I always, since I didn't like my team, I keep on saying media was so underrated, it's so cool.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_06: It's like But but I think at the core of the system, there has to be a strong agreed-upon attribution model that everybody agrees on, and and a good attribution model would show that.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_06: It would show the base and it would show how much of the incrementality is caused by your marketing action and the marketing actions that your agency is responsible for.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_06: Easy said than done, that bit that big said, but the technology is there.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_06: Uh we we just need the time, the desire, the ambition, the commitment to make it happen.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: There's one other thing I just sorry, I just wanted to pick on this one other thing that you had you had mentioned earlier, Karim, about selecting an agency.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it never really occurred to me that people were past world.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: We would pick agencies because they're great at creative and we thought they had good media buyers.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes they were different agencies.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Now, what you were just saying is there's also a set of tools that come along with an agency.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I never thought about the integration of the tools with whatever the tools are that are on like the brand side being uh another factor.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's just an interesting idea that like if we're a shop that uses like SAP or Salesforce or I don't know, Google or whatever the things are, like there's an integration between all these tools that is also equally important in choosing the right agency because they don't all you can't buy all the tools that exist out there.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_06: No.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_06: And it also changes what we bring as an agency, what used to be we'll negotiate with the big networks and we'll try to get good meter rates, has now turned into how many of these big partners, Salesforce, Adobe, name it, Google, as as your do you want to negotiate deals with, and what are the best possible tech deals that you can negotiate?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_06: That that also is a new era where your negotiation skills are now being leveraged.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_06: Another reason, and we're really after COVID, it became quite obvious.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_06: I think people became clients became um that the pitch team that they see in the room might not be there in two, three years after the pitch.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_06: They're lucky if they show up the day after the pitch, truth be told.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_06: So buying an agency solely on chemistry, and I like these guys, I can see myself working with them.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_06: You need something that is way more sustainable and systemic than the people who are showing up in the pitch room.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_06: I think that's another reason why people are turning to show me your tools, show me what's sustainable, show me what what this relationship is based upon.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_06: And then people become a little bit the gravy on top or the differentiating factor.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_06: But if the systemic approach to performance isn't there to start with, it it becomes a very risky move.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_06: And you've both been through it.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_06: An agency transition is a nightmare.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_06: That's not a task that should be taken slightly.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_06: So you're making a choice for the years to come.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_06: So I I think that's why the the focus has shifted.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_06: Towards tools and system more than just people and creative work.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_07: And if I want to add to your integration point, you know, I think everybody in the industry would claim integration through either your network ecosystem, you can deliver on a fully integrated team, right?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_07: Our experience is that there's three key winning conditions for integration to work aside of the systems that you share.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_07: And one being that you need to fully own the different entities and expertise, right?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_07: Otherwise, there are things in the way of collaboration such as APL and stuff like that.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_07: So it's very tough to bring together several businesses with their own objectives, even if they're party shared and truly deliver on unbiased integration.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_07: And the second is you need to be at least first tier in every discipline.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_07: Like it's not for the client to compromise for a coalition that brings in a weakest link, right?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_07: So to be able to deliver the full bench at that level of sophistication is probably another winning condition.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_07: And then you need to reward or compensate all your leaders based on one common KPI, which is your client's success.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_07: And that goes back to compensation and to really fully align interest.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_07: So those are the conditions we've seen being working in integration.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_07: And lastly, to Kahin's point, they need all to operate on the same tools and systems.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_07: That really, you know, is the gel.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_07: So you really operate as one team and one software somehow.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, and therefore the importance of developing those tools and all being able to connect to client systems.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_07: So integration is is kind of a different challenge than it was.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_07: And there's a lot of people having like bullshitting on integration.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_07: And I would I would call for more assessment uh when it comes to really truly delivering on it.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I agree with that point, Melanie, so much because there's sometimes there is a lot of smoke and mirrors that you have to navigate.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then when you start peeling back that onion a little bit and you start seeing, you're like, oh man, how did I not think about this earlier?
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: And it puts it puts the relationship in a in a real strain, to be honest with you.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: The question I had, and maybe Melanie, we stay with you here for a little bit as well, is there's been a huge movement.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if this was started back maybe 10 years ago, 15 years ago, where a lot of clients start going down this path of internalization, right?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I can do it cheaper, I'm gonna bring it in-house.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, many were really quick to understand that the resourcing problems around building in-house models is probably one of the biggest issues in trying to internalize any sort of channels.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: But then we were just talking about integrations, we were just talking about performance-based outcomes.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, how do you navigate that ecosystem where, say, some clients will have something that's internalized, while at the same time, you may have a really clear position, a strategic position on how these channels are being operated that could be affecting, say, your outcome-based model.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm just curious like, how do you navigate that world right now where you're dealing with a little bit of both?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: Some clients have in-house, others are just fully agency-led.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: What are you seeing right now?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_07: No, that's an interesting question.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_07: By the way, we just shared a piece on this specifically.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_07: You know, what's the role of an agency in a world where many clients have integrated a part of their uh their work?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_07: So, first off, I just want to touch on that, right?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_07: I I think that that's great that clients are starting to internalize some of the work or parts of the workflows.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_07: Um, and I've seen that working really well, especially when it was for the right reasons, meaning that you really want to have a closer view on your clients' insights.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_07: It's it's close to your core business sometimes.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_07: You know, some are in different industries where it's closer to their core.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_07: So if done for the right reason, I think it brings a lot of benefit.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_07: For those who have done it just for savings efficiencies or, you know, saving on agency fees, I felt sometimes it felt short a little.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_07: There's a a tendency to underestimate some of the risks that comes with it, right?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_07: So you need to be the one investing in technology, taking bets on technology, training your people.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_07: You would miss on some of the external insights.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_07: So I've seen some doing it very well, some others for the wrong reasons, and then going back to the traditional model.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_07: So I would just like raise a flag here.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_07: This being said, to go back to integration and being able to take risks together.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_07: When we speak of integration today, it includes the clients.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_07: It includes the clients for clothes and stacks and operation.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_07: Like they have tons of insights and data we need to access.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_07: They have internal studios at times.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_07: And it's one of the key players that needs to be at the table.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_07: Karen's point earlier, though, it calls for transparency.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_07: It calls for sharing confidential data and building that you know tent where trust brings us together.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_07: But I don't see that as an issue as long as a client is is part of the integrated model.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_07: And I've seen clients doing it really well in our own ecosystem.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: So nice.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_06: Since most of our clients have in-house in some shape or form, I don't think we can have one model.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_06: I think the model is very different depending on the teams.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_06: And you'd be surprised by how many in-houseing philosophies there are out there.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_06: And at the two ends of the spectrums, you'll find the clients who say, we're about execution.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_06: We want the big thinkers to be with the agencies because they know about the trends, they see the biggest clients, they see all the trends there, they keep up to date with the platforms at a faster pace than we can do it as we focus on our business.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_06: So for some of the clients, they ask us to be an inverted triangle.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_06: So they they they want seniority, only seniority on the business, and they will inhouse the cuts costs on the more junior people.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_06: For some other clients, it's quite the opposite.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_06: They say, we know all about our business.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_06: We want to do the strategy, we want you to handle the production and the go to market and uh the billing.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_06: You you take all of that.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_06: We'll take the more senior people.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_06: And in those cases, well, it's a very traditional triangle that that you'll see for for our model.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_06: And some other clients are are always working with a buddy system.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_06: They'll double everything.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_06: So I'll have a senior person, a senior art director, both in-house and at the agency, and we want them to hold hands at every step of the way.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_06: So I don't know what model that creates.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_06: That creates a funnel, I guess.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_06: So we're we're seeing very different models as we adapt to the in-house in philosophy of each of our clients.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_06: So I don't think we can call for a single model in the marketplace, at least not if we adapt to the needs of each of our clients, which I believe is the only way we can succeed in this business.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's it's the relationship thing is such an key thing in terms of like how they want to structure it.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: And what you're saying is you're adapting, and and it's really interesting as you're describing those different visuals of it to thinking about how paired, how the pairings work to build these relationships.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: But coming back to the idea of the the tech stacks connecting, like I know you guys have built some products, and it seemed, and if we've talked to other people that have that have done not the same kind of products, but it's it seems to be more common now where agencies are building digital products that can be integrated as a relationship with the client's tech stack and whatnot.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: And just wondering how that relationship works, and could maybe you can describe some of the products that you have, but just the idea around the service you offer isn't just a human service, it's also like an intelligence layer that that you have developed, and that's sort of a special sauce of your own that's now integrating with clients' own tech stacks as well.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_07: And to go beyond that, because you would first think those are mainly media tools, but what we're building are, I would call them operational platform.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_07: So there's a few of our tools that are actually our base operation for Martech Media and Creative.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_07: So you can actually operate on a similar platform that will help you develop insights and then develop creative insights, and then develop the brief, and then develop, you know, the creative assets.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_07: It fuels your production capabilities.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_07: And then it gets back to pushing on the media channels, and then media channels are coming back with performance data, and then performance data refueled the production studio.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_07: And so the idea of having everything integrated under one way of working and unifying platform is very distinctive and unique to this era, and we're not even talking client tools here, right?
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_07: That's just the way we operate as an agency.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_07: So yeah, so technology plays a very different role.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_07: And if we could, you know, make sure our clients are accessing those platforms so it's it's open sourced, it brings another layer of collaboration, I'd say, at the end.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_06: The best time to retire, actually.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_06: I've been I've been in this business for a long, long time.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_06: I think it's the more fun I've had in my career so far, because the cost barrier isn't there anymore.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_06: The reason why agency didn't build it is because they couldn't.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_06: It was super expensive.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_06: We have an AI governance team that is led by Melney.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_06: And in the beginning, for the first couple of months, this governance team was just trying to push for AI usage and tracking usage in all of our teams.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_06: We shifted very quickly in a matter of half of a year, I'm gonna say, in having to map everything that is being created by all of our agencies so that we don't create twice the same thing.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_06: People are having so much fun coding and there's next to no cost attached to it that sometimes, you know, one of our own agencies, we're not even talking about our competitors, one of our agency lead will be coming, I my team came with this product.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_06: And then another leader will say, Well, my team had that two months ago.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_06: And I'm like, how come we're recreating the same stuff twice?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_06: That that's a waste of time.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_06: So now our government's team has to make sure that we map all the agents that are being created for ourselves and for our clients so that we don't recreate the same work twice.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_06: And that's only possible because there's the the cost barrier has been has exploded over the last few months, years.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_06: And and that didn't exist three years ago.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_06: So I I think it's the most fascinating time for agencies, those who are embracing the change and loving technology.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_06: There's and and and I want to point out that since I've been working with creative teams more than ever before in my career, I see how the true potential of creativity can be applied to tool development.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_06: Uh, because it's one to say I can create it, but to think of a tool that hasn't been launched to market just yet takes a huge amount of creativity.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_06: And our team is amazing at doing that.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_06: Uh the, you know, the brainstorm sessions are now let's create a tool that would do this and optimize that and reach this audience and so on.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_06: So I think creativity is now being applied to an all-new field which is rooted in technology nowadays.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_07: You ask, you know, is is this the worst time to start in the industry?
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_07: And Gaheen is very enthusiastic with, you know, all we're dealing with AI.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_07: And but if you're someone just finishing university and you wonder, should I go in that industry?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_07: You could be frightened by the fact that agents and AI have indeed replaced some of the intermediate or junior position, right?
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_07: And I think there was some chat around, you know, the pyramid and how we remove layers and how do we grow people to become senior.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_07: It's such a a barbell.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_07: And one of the things we we did, one mistake we made when we first revisited our agency workflows.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_07: You know, you're trying to rebuild the workflow with agents.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_07: And you start with like the usual process, the traditional or legacy process, an agency is typically working.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_07: So, and it's really waterfall, or it's becoming a loop through time.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_07: So it became a loop where you breathe, you create the asset, you send that in the market, you get the feedback, you adjust, you optimize, and then it's a full circle, right?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_07: And you're trying to replicate that with agent, but you know, really what AI and agents are offering as possibilities to start to think that way and to really think of an always-on ecosystem.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_07: Like an ecosystem that's fueled by real humans, but you know, that autonomously would optimize on an ongoing basis.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_07: But the agents are talking to each other on a real-time basis.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_07: It's no longer like that circle.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_07: So that changed completely how you work as a team and how you work in the ecosystem.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_07: So to go back to talent, to think that, you know, we're gonna remove layers and then it's gonna create a system where we cannot grow because there's a big gap, is kind of thinking like in the past, in a sense that it's no longer time-based how you grow in a structure and how you become senior.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_07: Actually, it's a team that you assemble that's made of junior and senior people, but sometimes the solution comes from a junior person that would mentor a senior person.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_07: So I think we need to rethink career paths here, workflows and structure, because people can actually be the solution or coach others regardless of how long they've been in the industry.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_07: So I think we need to rethink completely how we grow our talent.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_07: It's not even about growth, but it's at assembling the right skills and personalities together.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well, let's let's stay here on this, because we had a section here around skills in the next generation.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I think you you make a great point here, Melanie, and maybe let's let's kind of go a little bit deeper.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: When you're looking at hiring now, and maybe Corinne, we we we kick off with you here.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: What are you looking for today that you weren't looking for 10 to 15 years ago?
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_06: I think we'd be lying if Mel Nye told you that we do all the interviews for people who graduate from university.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_06: So we mostly hire senior people, but I think it's so easy nowadays to create a resume on LinkedIn and even make sure that you get you get referred by the algorithm.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_06: I think we went back to networking a lot more than we did in the past.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_06: Um we put a huge premium on references and we know people who know people and they have worked together, and you know, I know the two of you, you would recommend this person.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_06: This comes as a huge premium, I I think nowadays.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_06: So I it it's a little bit like reviews, online reviews has a huge impact on the way you get referred by the LLMs nowadays.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_06: I I think personal reviews comes with a huge, huge premium when it comes to hiring.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_06: So we spend a lot of time creating this network, expanding this network, knowing people, know people, which uh truth be told, it is a challenge as we expand into net new network, net new markets.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_06: So it's it's something that we need to think of because what works in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Quebec City will be different as we open in in Calgary.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_06: So we we we need to think this through.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_06: And then our teams are spending way more time on soft skills for people who are entering our our industry.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_06: And I know we all share a love of sports, but you know, somebody who comes with a sports background as work in in a team sports, we know that they work well in teams, they're open to other ideas, that they take feedback.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_06: Taking feedback is something that we um care about very very, very dearly.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_06: So we we look for this kind of experience more than just the skills and the coding skills and and and and and because everything can be learned and everything you know today is not gonna be too true three years from now.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_06: So I think we're more looking for personalities the more junior they are and and and accomplishment outside of of of schools and and and and skills.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: Love that.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: We we just had a with the marketing association that I run, we just had a a session last week on the skills we need now, and and the it's a really interesting discussion, but some of the things that we landed on were business acumen, negotiation, research, listening, and then self-teaching.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it part of it's because of the tools that we have, and part of it because you can the tools that we have, like AI, in theory has all of the knowledge.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: It just doesn't necessarily point you to the the knowledge that you want to hear, it just points you a lot of times to the middle.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's this idea of, especially in creative, and specifically I would say probably agencies that are more traditionally known as being the cre the source of creativity a lot of times, where there's a rounding the edges kind of thing.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: And and like if we're going down this path of AI, there's this sea of sameness that that we could have.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just wondering, like, how do you think about skills that way in terms of not finding or finding the edges to to not go to the middle, to not uh to be a bit more critical thinking around average, you know what I mean?
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's always this this fear that AI is gonna bring us to the the average, but and that's part of the thing that agencies I think have been so great at in in history is not doing that.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_07: I just want to start with uh the skills required to win in today's world.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_07: And I think we should add to those great ones you you came up with at the at that CME session, adaptability, resilience, judgment, uh, capacity to be opportunistic, not have a destination, you know.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_07: So we we're barely doing like five-year plans anymore.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_07: So it's like, what will be in five years, right?
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_07: So what's what's next week?
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_07: And that's a competency that we're looking for, right?
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_07: Uh in our talent pool.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_07: Add to that, so we don't become a sea of sameless, uh, as you said, uh, creativity is is indeed still a thing.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_07: But I think it got democratized in a sense that it was like really the thing for creative boutique agencies or the creative department in a full service agency like Cassette, right?
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_07: I think that a skill we're looking for in all positions now is creativity and creativity applied to anything you do.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_07: So, yes, of course, you know, great ideas come out of the creative department, but a data scientist needs to be creative with the way he looks into the data, right?
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_07: And someone that works in our Martech team, because we do have a Martech practice, needs to see technology and what's offered different.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_07: Everything is table stake, everything is available off the shelf.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_07: Now, the way they're gonna assemble those technology needs to be creative.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_07: And that's where they get become like a bit distinctive.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_07: Everybody has access to the same things, everybody can claim to be integrated, all those, you know, all that shit, right?
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_07: But at the end of the day, the humans that are in the driver's seat will make it unique and different.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_07: So creativity is still something we're looking for, but in all positions, including the management, right?
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_07: So Karen is the most creative media lever leader I've ever met, like really.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_07: So that's uh that's another one I would like to have.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_06: So we're all having our different touch at it.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_06: And uh, and also it's it's something we've been all concerned about, which is I don't know what the stats are, we should look it up, but how many agencies on average do the employee do in the in the lifetime?
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_06: So, you know, we're talking about being distinctive, but up until COVID, most people who spent a lifetime in advertising will be working at I don't know, six to eight different agencies.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_06: So you know talent is it's very difficult to rely on talent to be the soul this the single source of distinctiveness in in the marketplace because people can bring their own talent where wherever they go.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_06: So I'm not so worried about the average conversation, let's put it that way.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_06: But I'm worried about curiosity and and and and people want to get new information and and people wanting to ask asking the difficult questions is is a is a is a hard skill.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_06: And it goes into prompting, it goes into the clients and and uh staff reviews that that should be one skill that I would I would really look for in in an employee in the in the in an interview if if I were to run a lot of interviews nowadays.
• 44:14
  unknown: Mark?
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_02: Mark talks about this a lot as well.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I think AI has unlocked this new frontier of what one could call meware.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: So you're creating software for yourself because you're trying to solve your own problems.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I even have my own personal example of this where I've created a media plan analyzer, but using the way I analyze media plans personally.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not meant for being mass consumption.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: This is a tool for me.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it's interesting because we got there from an from a level of experience that we we have in the industry and the the unique questions that we have, the unique point of views.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_02: And it's really interesting right now because everyone has their own version of something to kind of help them in their operationalization of their day-to-day.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_02: And it has to be somewhat nerve-wracking when you're thinking about because you use this example, like internally we may have two different groups creating the same tool, but they're probably approaching it from two different lenses because the problem to solve could be different, even though it could have a commonality.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I just think it's a fascinating time and I agree with you both, we're probably at the precipice of something truly remarkable of human ingenuity, human creativity, and the ability to kind of look beyond what our current roles are.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I think people coming out of school should be really excited, even though maybe that first step is probably the hardest one to take than it's ever been.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_02: But I wanted to start the the process here of like we always want to leave our listeners with something.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: So if a marketing leader is listening to this today, what is that one thing they should be changing on a Monday morning?
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: I have one that maybe I can just jump in that you had said Melanie while I'm anchoring but like the idea that governance just to speak on V's point the the idea that governance I always thought about that as like sort of policing in the same way that legal was the same thing as like policing things you can't do.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: But you had said something earlier Melanie that made me think of governance being an enabling tool like there I think the mind shift between thinking about creativity as an opportunity to build something new and not necessarily using just AI as an efficiency plate and then thinking about governance as a as a creator creative partner in a way as a to create business opportunity create value in ways that we never could before is is really interesting for the way you said it.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah I I I think that you know in a world where ethic is being challenged morale and you know not just because of AI you know just because that's the world we live in right now governance takes a increasingly importance in the way you you govern but in the way you lead a business right you you need to pay attention to those things just like environment or social.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_07: But when you think of governance it means as an example on how we source how you source through your vendor bench and what you asked of them so they contribute to some some greater good you have as a target.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_07: So in our case as an example we favor local sourcing.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_07: So when it comes to production houses the tech partner we're going to select we're trying to have a bias towards local because it gives us more agility it gives us a better connection the head office is just like a corner from here so we have a throat to choke and so but also we're supporting local economy so that's a good example of how we can make a difference thinking governance different even as a creative agency.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_07: And also if you think of how we have an impact locally to have six offices in Canada is important for us.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_07: It's part of you know a good governance in our case.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_07: Our clients are spread across the country they are asking so we act both locally and nationally so it has a cost right to have six offices it has a cost.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_07: But for me it's the right thing to do for us and our clients.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_07: So those are a few examples of you know think of things I would ask my client to think different maybe tomorrow.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_07: And there's another thing also you know we were speaking of you know what how we we hire and how we select talent and Karen speaked a lot of references and you know looking into their real creds and that stuff at the resume.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_07: I think the way agencies are sourced is a little outdated today.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_07: So we spoke of you know how procurement looks at rate cards and how we are compensated.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_07: But you know it's really easy to fill up an RFP with a lot of bullshits right and and I would I would ask you know so we have more meaningful conversations instead of just like the submission.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_07: So they find ways also to probe the credentials, go deeper into you know the scorecard.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_07: So so that's another one I think that you know is a bit of a miss right now in the industry.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_07: You know we need to be a bit more authentic with who we are and who we select.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_06: I I I will take another hat to answer your question, V, which is what would be the one thing I would ask advertisers think about I'm I'm gonna take as I am stepping down, I'm not sure if I have stepped down or if I am stepping down I I must be on the cross of stepping down as the president of the Canadian media council.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_06: But we everybody understands that marketers are under a lot of pressure and that you need to deliver leads, deliver sales, deliver we're all for that.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_06: But we're talking about very small incremental differences between supporting a Canadian media partners or a global partners with ethic and values and being able to support at all costs.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_06: The difference between 12,000 leads and 11,000 needs what's the price to pay to get this incremental thousand needs more I would really I would I I would love all marketers to ask themselves this this question because the the short answer has always been I'm evaluated based on performance.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_06: But I I I think people see it as performance not performance but the difference between a highly ethical placement and a placement that is not is very marginal.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_06: So think of that as you make those decisions because you're leaving a legacy behind for future generations.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: Love that yeah and it's interesting thinking about like the impact of the media choices we have like we there's your point there's a study called Canada Canadian media means business or something I can't remember the exact title of it but um it was like an econometric survey type of research project where they looked at the Canadian media landscape and how important it was to the the employment of Canada.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it's probably true for a lot of media agencies or a lot of countries around the world where a lot of local media is has the inventory available but doesn't necessarily get the same level of investment as other places like Google or Facebook.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: But there's a choice there where I didn't even really thought about it until I saw the survey where like we employ a lot of people in the industry and and the advertising industry is really big.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so even choices about where you put the media dollar to your point like the the incremental hundred leads is it really that significant and could you be doing more with the dollars you have to benefit everybody not just the extra hundred leads that you're looking at as performance like redefining performance is actually really interesting.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_07: And it goes back to governance right uh I mean the choices you're making as a company has an impact on different fronts and if the sole KPI is a return on you know cost of leads and conversion um maybe you miss on certain contribution to the industry.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_07: And not just like for not just like so uh so you're a hero here, but think of uh the fragmentation of medias, right?
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_07: And and now there's a trend towards consolidation under certain platforms and certain platforms that have their pros and cons, but it comes down to how many options do you have as a brand so your brand comes to life in different environments.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_07: And and it almost goes down to democracy at the end, right?
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_07: If there's only like three or four different media voices out there, it calls for a little like bias and and you might miss on safe space where to put your brand out there.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_07: So to think of you know the way you place media so we have a sustainable and healthy media ecosystem could be a key more.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_07: And if we do that all together you might you know end up having more choices more competition more different environments so you have your brand brought to life you can reach different audiences but you also contribute to a healthy media ecosystem.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_06: And that being said I don't know how to move the needle I've been trying really hard I've been a hard advocate on trying to educate everybody at our agency at universities with with media and everybody else I'm not the only one there's hundreds of people in Canada who are advocate of of this cause I don't know how to move the needle anymore.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_06: I've come to a point where I've been really optimistic throughout this podcast about technology and the future of our industry support of local media I just don't know how to bring the cause to the forefront I think it needs to start with the government.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_06: Some some of the bigger spenders on global platforms are now the governments so and and it's one of the excuses I've heard the most in recent years which is why would I do my part if the government isn't do its part we're talking a lot about buy Canadian nowadays.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_06: The government hasn't translated that in their media placement themselves.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_06: So I I think they need to show the way to get this excuse out of for all marketers so so that they can really address the question.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_06: And people need to understand that nowadays it's not like you know five 10 years ago you want to buy hockey there was only place you could buy hockey you needed to negotiate with Rogers.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_06: That that's how it would get done hockey equals Rogers.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_06: Now if you think of an audience or TV shows there's 20 different ways to get to the same audience and to get to the same TV shows.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_06: The job of a trader is to get to the best possible inventory at the best possible price.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_06: So I don't think we're locked in into a platform.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_06: The people the people can divest as easily nowadays.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_06: I had set the objective for our agencies in 2026 to divest by 30 crown meta platform because of security issues, CAM issues mostly there hasn't been a week since the last 18 months where I haven't had one of my clients uh coming up with fake accounts people raising money on their behalf trying to close down a fake accounts and and we couldn't get it done.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_06: So for that reason we didn't tell client do not do it.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_06: We just said you should divest a little because this is a highly risky placement.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_06: We have failed we haven't achieved that I I think we're at this we we just stopped the growth but we're 30% off from the initial objective of diversing from the meta platform.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_06: So I don't know it's a cry for help I guess help me guys.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_07: I don't know how that's another place where you know the the industry including clients needs to come together because when you think of it, you know we've been advocates of diversifying the media and supporting the Canadian ecosystem we launched a a platform called Make Media Matter that was promoting local media assets.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_07: But at the end of the day we have a fiduciary responsibility as media buyers right so we receive a client brief and there are specific KPIs in that brief even if we know make our case at the end of the day we need to hit on those KPIs.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_07: That's inevitable.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_07: So so it needs to start from the brief and that's a client including your right Kevin governance because they do have a large share of the buying market here.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_07: So we have our the limits that what we can do have a team we got such an interesting conversation.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah there's so many there's like I think we could probably have a whole other separate interview on just the media landscape and media buying but Karen and Melanie thanks for joining us.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: How can people find out more more about you and Cassette and plus company and all the things you guys are working on.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_07: I think on our feeds on our several media feeds there's a lot in there.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_06: And also we'll be uh visiting a lot in in Calgary as we open our our new office so I know your listeners are all track can we already have offices everywhere but we're looking forward to have this live version of this podcast pretty soon.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_02: Mark and I are your rooms look so professional so we're looking forward to being those rooms we're literally in basements unfortunately so it looks better than what it actually is.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah we're gonna put Calgary in the center of the world that's where we're gonna we're gonna make it the the the marketing hub of Canada is our home from the center from the center of Canada to the center of the world I love it.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do it let's do it thanks team this was great thank you for inviting us