Latest / Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves / 194: Tyler Edwards - Life After Sport and Letting Go of Perfection Without Losing Your Drive.

Transcript

194: Tyler Edwards - Life After Sport and Letting Go of Perfection Without Losing Your Drive. · Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it's easier said than done, right?
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the the easiest way.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one thing I'm I'm saying is don't be accepting and saying, oh well, it's just a it's just a mistake, whatever, right?
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because you still want you've still got that desire, right, to succeed.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's always going to be there, right?
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: So saying I'm you know, I guess the term acceptance here is more just going if it happens, I'm not gonna dwell on it.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna then let it spiral me out of control.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I think perfectionism or trying to achieve perfection, we all know, we don't want to admit it, right?
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Some people say they are, right?
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: But perfection doesn't exist, it's not physically possible to achieve that.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Who are you beyond the game?
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Ryan Gonçalves, I became a professional footballer at 16 and eventually had to answer that myself.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is Career Cloud to With Athletes from Second Wind Academy, a show about career transition, seen through the lens and lives of elite athletes.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: This season I'm sitting down with athletes still competing, athletes years out, and the sports psychologists, coaches and practitioners who guide them.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: We get into the decisions, the identity, and the practical work of building what comes next.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Athletes hit this earlier than most people, but what they learn works for anybody.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Each episode, a story, and where it goes from there.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Let's be inspired by the stories of others.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the show, great to have you here today.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: Can't wait to get started.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well, for you it's the kickstart of the day.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's actually the the kickstart of episode or series five, um, really, that we that we bring in.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: We've certainly been having a think about how we want the show and the type of impact that we want it to have.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so having someone like yourself coming along and bringing your perspective in terms of, you know, one guest that I had mentioned the fact that mental performance or the bit that goes on that isn't just the physical activity is the differentiator, especially at the high end of elite sport or elite performance.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, we don't talk about it.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um we focus a lot more on the physical attributes and the training and activity that comes there.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm quite interested to you know see where this conversation takes us, but certainly bring a bit of learning for me as well.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, yeah, that's uh uh a great starting point because I think naturally I agree that we all from probably you know very, very young, you introduce yourself to all that physical aspect, right?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: You fit you introduce yourself to the the physical, the the tactical, the technical aspects, but that mental piece naturally is is I guess missing.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Coaches kind of push it to the side, oh we don't need that sort of thing.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: You've got that very kind of, I guess, lackluster mentality towards it.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I guess, yeah, it's I I think hopefully with the I guess the progression that you're starting to see in the so in social media, uh you know, in news outlets and and reporting it, and I guess more at that kind of top level hopefully has a nice kind of trickle-down effect as well.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: So uh yeah, but I think yeah, we'll we'll definitely get into that nice, nice and quickly, uh, for sure.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, for those who don't know who you are, give us that brief introduction, tell us who you are and what you're up to.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm Tyler.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: I am a trainee sport and excise psychologist, focusing also on the performance aspect, a part of that.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of run my own private practice, um, but I also have hold consultancy roles and I also work with um GB Maxi Basketball, so that is the master's NGB for basketball, and then I'm head of human performance for British Functional Fitness, who are en route to getting recognised as a sport as functional fitness.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a nice journey to also be a part of and something completely new to me.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, within those fields, ultimately I look at the main premise being the mental aspect of our performing.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: So how our thinking, our feeling, and our behaving all interact with one another, uh, and I guess that ultimate mind and body uh connection as well.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, hopefully it gives a bit of a gist of who I am, and I guess it'll be pretty easy to understand what we're going to discuss uh today as well.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for that, because that's already interesting for me because you spoke about what that mental performance is, and you said it's all about how thinking, feeling, behaving, I think with the three bits.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: Can you just that's a great, another definition, another bit for me to anchor on.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: Talk talk me through those three as a way of describing that, the the mental aspects of performance.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I think you know, naturally we can we can kind of put psychology in a box in the respect that typically we have you know, arguably two different voices that that kind of drive our performance or drive you know whatever we do, right?
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think I want to make it clear that sports psychology, performance psychology isn't the first psychology, right?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: So we're we're naturally always doing some form of psychology.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: But the reason why I kind of pick out those those three kind of core premises is naturally if we have unhelpful cognitions or or thinking patterns, naturally then we feel in a way that I guess is necessarily unhelpful towards performance.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, that spirals into okay, now I'm going to behave and act in a way that's unhelpful.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: So an example might be, you know, pre-game, I'm maybe say competition, World Cup is a very relevant thing at the moment, right?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: So World Cup final, I'm hoping it's uh it's Harry Kane that's that's there in that scenario.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: But Harry Kane could go into it with, I guess, a mentality of one or two things, right?
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: He could be thinking, what a great opportunity this is.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: I can't wait to you know get involved.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, I back myself, I believe myself to go score today and to win today.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, that helpful way of thinking is probably gonna lead to still some nerves, right?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's the World Cup final, for God's sake, right?
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's a that's a no-brainer.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna feel more excited, we're gonna feel, you know, I guess enjoyment from that kind of understanding of what's going on in our head.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, those behaviours, the way he then acts, how he plays, is he's probably gonna be very commanding, very, you know, uh, I guess aggressive when he's got the ball.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: He's gonna be very direct, just like he does.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: He's not gonna be afraid to, I guess, be proactive and and not shy away from that potential fear of what if I make a mistake, what if, you know, what if we start to trail behind it, what if I miss an absolute sitter, right?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: So you you can see that that connection between that thinking, that feeling, the behaviour.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: Now, it's the same exact thing, but you know, same situation, same again, Harry Kane, he's approaching the World Cup final, right?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: But in his heart, in his head, he could decide to ask those questions, you know, what if we we go 1-0 down in the first minute?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: What if I miss every single shot today?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: What if I'm not reliable for my teammates, you know, even though he has been so far, right?
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, starts to trail all of these unhelpful negative thoughts, right?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: And and naturally, our brain likes to jump to that automatic negative thought.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: We call them ants, and it's something I'm probably gonna talk about quite a lot today, right?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: But our brain jumps on these ants, these negative thoughts, and of course, by by listening to that and and assuming their their truth, which at the end of the day, they're assumptions, right?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: They're not based off fact, they're not based on evidence.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: If I listen to that voice, naturally those feelings are gonna be nervousness, but they're probably gonna start becoming a bit too much for me, right?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: And leaning into that kind of performance anxiety, right?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Where desire to succeed becomes too much that it starts boiling over into the negative components, and then the behavior is where it's quite simple.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna either avoid, I'm gonna withdraw, I'm gonna play it simple, play it safe, you know, a nice little five-yard backwards pass or sideways pass.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna take on my man, right?
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna be quiet, I'm gonna be, you know, out of the game, right?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, the situation hasn't changed, right?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: The World Cup final.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to play the highest level, I'd say that's definitely right.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: But it's very much that adaptive versus maladapted way of thinking that results in you either going one way or the other.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so let me just take it back and make sure I've understood it.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I for me, uh, I I think a lot about that, the thinking.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: So you've described uh how our thoughts and we can have either a healthy habit of thinking or uh an unhealthy habit of thinking about you know what's going to happen to us.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: And what you've then described is those that voice um in our head, which and I was speaking with someone else, and um I should say I was speaking with the voice in my head, but I was speaking with somebody else, and yeah, they were just talk talking about if we if we were to write down the thoughts that we say to ourselves, we would probably hate that person because they're so often so negative and so harsh and brutal.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: For sure, yeah, yeah.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: But then those thoughts drive a feeling, which I then put as I interpret as an emotion.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I feel something.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and feeling I guess just to quickly interrupt, feeling doesn't necessarily just mean that emotion.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yes, we've got the emotional side of feelings, we've also got that physiological feeling, right?
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: That feeling of butterflies in the stomach, that shaking, that tenseness, right?
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: We've also got that.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess for me, feeling is a bit more to then just the emotion, which naturally we we kind of lean into because it's more noticeable, right?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it's okay.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, no, but that's good.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's good you're adding to it.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: So there's the emotional, which perhaps is well chemical, versus what we actually feel um a physical physio, physiological, um, that sort of physical sense that we get as well.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then that drives our behaviour, that drives our actions in in those regards.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: So from yeah, so I get it.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that that thinking, that that feeling, moving then into the actions or the behaviours that we do, and it kind of starts at the top where it's either a healthy or a helpful or unhelpful ways, depending on what the actions are that's that you're seeking.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: The reason why I use helpful versus unhelpful is because if we put the ideas of positive and negative on it, right?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: And we associate with them, well, not everything in life is positive and negative, right?
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: There's not much there's some things in life that no matter how you try and spin it, you're not gonna be able to put a positive lens on it, right?
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: We it's not all sunshines and rainbows, right?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: So we we need to be conscientious, and I like how you actually were you picked up on it as well, where is it helpful or is it unhelpful, you know, for what I'm trying to do?
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that could be a performance, that could just be your your day in, day, you know, day out uh actions that you want to take place.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Is it helpful to me by thinking this way, or is it unhelpful?
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, is it keeping me striving towards those goals that I'm trying to achieve?
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Is it you know putting me in the right direction and doing the right thing in that moment, or is it kind of pushing me away and kind of, I guess, spiralling me out of control?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, that the the differentiation I think for me is key and something I like to try and communicate because actually, if I was to say to you, Ryan, that all we need to do is just put a positive spin on it, if you miss five, you know, my five sisters in a row, I don't think Harry Kane can put much of a positive spin on it, right?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: But there's definitely a way that we can put a helpful spin of making sure that when he approaches that next sixth one, it's a different story to well, I might not even bother.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's no point me bothering with this sixth shot, I may as well just pass, right?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: So hopefully that gets gives a bit of clarification as well.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, it does, it really does.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, Tyler, I'm listening to you, and I'm and I'm two thoughts are going through my head at the moment.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: One is why, like you say, this is not the first form of psychology or the first type of psychology that that that we're going through.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm curious about your career in sport to pick sorry in your career in psychology to spit to pick sport psychology and and that aspect versus the other uh universe.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I probably want to go there next with a view to then come back and talk about how you help athletes and how perhaps then athletes use that to and others who are listening and watching to say, right, well, how does that help me in sport?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: But how does it help me outside of sport as well?
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but yeah, listen to you.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me, you know, what's your sporting background?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: What what got you into uh and psychology background?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: What got you into this field?
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: So my sporting background was primarily tennis and football.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I played at a regional level for both.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um I al I played other sports.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think I I'm not trying to be big-headed, but I think if you're pretty good at some sports at a young age, you then pick up others naturally, right?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's how transfer of skills work.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Another little bit of psychology there, but we we've got to dive into that.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um so naturally, I think I got involved with a lot of sports.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: I've always been involved with sports.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Ironically, none of my family are, so I don't really know where that uh common interest has come from.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: But up until probably the age of, I think it was either 13 or 14, um, I completely burnt out of tennis, you know, training five times a week, playing you know, competitions every week or every other week, doing the same mundane tasks over and over, and it I just found it so boring, got the pressures of the parents paying so much money and that being a reminder, right, uh day in, day out.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: I just kind of completely quit.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I completely quit tennis, transitioned, I guess, more so onto football, and I did other things around it.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: But that was kind of my my tapping out scenario where I thought, you know what, I'm not gonna make it pro, it's it's boring, I don't enjoy it anymore.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: And and that more core aspect of why we play sport while we get into it in the first place of the enjoyment was lost.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I guess it also links into that idea of how I've got back to here.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of a a scenario where I've actually got the opportunity to go, I can help you not do that.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because looking back on it, you know, as soon as I started doing this, it was a realization of wow, I missed out on probably eight years of competitive uh sport, right, in in that setting.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: And now when I go play tennis and I'm like, I'm very rusty, right?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very rusty.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: And even my mates have sometimes given me a bit of a game, right?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because I've not I've not uh kept it up.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's uh you know a heartbreaking sort scenario.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, for sure, it it hurts a lot.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's kind of the I guess the sporting aspect which drove me to be interested, be in be intriguing uh and and engaging.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm interested then.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: So at that time, as that 14, 15-year-old, did you recognise a sense of burnt out, whatever that means?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Did you you know what what did it feel like to you then?
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think I did, but not obviously not in the the necessary definition of what burnout looks like now and you know what I kind of do psychoeducation around.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: But I think yeah, at that age, what I kind of noticed very quickly was there's a real lack of motivation to just go, right?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: First, just to get out the door.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: When I was there, it was half-hearted, you know.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: I I argue with the coach because I was like, can we do something else?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: No, then you know, so then I was stuck in this loop, right?
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: There was a lack of autonomy and you know, I guess idea of free will in for what I could choose and to do and stuff like that, which I'm not gonna bore you with motivational theories, but a lack of autonomy ultimately pushes you away and makes you less motivated.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I had that kind of day in, day out when I was training.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: It was a heavy workload, you know, finish school, go train, come home, eat you know, every day, and you you're not really seeing the necessarily the benefits.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I was noticing it, but of course, I without anyone educating me or without any psychology support or any kind of education around that at that time.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it's probably still quite similar these days, but I didn't really, I just kind of took it as oh, what's the point?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: I can't be asked for this, and that's kind of get it out off my uh timetable sort of thing.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, and then I mean it is interesting because I I hear it a lot, I hear it not just at the young age, but certainly at the older age, and we'll probably talk about you hearing that with with those athletes as well.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, then what's your path to being in the sport and like you say, being in the positions that you are now?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: So through school, the traditional, I had an interest in jet just psychology during school, found it was quite a bit of an eye-opener thing.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: I I found like all the studies and stuff like that interesting, not sport, just general psychology.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: My mum does hypnotherapy, so she I guess also kind of introduced me to the idea of what therapy looks like and and that sort of thing.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I had a as I guess a common understanding of what it looked like.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: Not in detail, but I was like, oh, okay, someone comes here, they speak to you, and hopefully they're cured, right?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: That was my my impression back then.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: But and then through those years, I I went to uni, so I went and did a sport and exercise science degree.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, not sports psychology.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: I just went, let's go general, because I don't know yet.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: Had an inkling, but sports psychology soul courses weren't really a thing apart from at Loughborough and Liverpool John Moores, I think at that time were the only ones offering it, so it was quite a oh that's a bit you know, bit rogue, and I don't think I got into Loughborough anyway, so I think we'll we'll ignore that uh side of things.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: So went to Brighton, did that uh degree, noticed that each year, every module I picked was just psychology based.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so I was like, well, it's kind of a no-brainer at this point, and then I did my masters, um, and then once you do your masters, you go on to the stage two training.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: So at that point, I was like, yes, this is this is kind of set in stone what I want to do.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and yeah, I've been doing the training since September 24, I think it was, or something along the lines of that.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think it is that's about the interest?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: So what what I'll actually let me come back.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: What I love about what you've said is you knew the area, and I'm applying this to many people I speak with, which is uh there's something in sport.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: So you you landed in that area, and you yeah, it was like there's it's sports, I'm whatever it is, I'm in this area.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess the good thing about degrees is you're able to then pick modules that naturally start to move your interest towards the psychological side of sport.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think it is about sport that uh that has made you uh want to be in this field?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like why sport?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: What is it that's made it interesting for you?
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think kind of mixes between uh the fact that every context and every individual is is completely different, right?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: So from a psychological lens, it's brilliant to indulge myself into new context, new sports, new environments, and go, you know what, I can look at this as a clean state, uh slate, I can use my existing sporting knowledge, but I can still apply the psychology aspect.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: But then I think as well, the I think the driving force of why you know sport, I guess was the I'm just getting in there, is is it comes back to that point about enjoyment, right?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: That everything that I've ever done from probably my when I was like I think I started sport at three, I started skiing at like three and tennis at three.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I transitioned very quickly where my whole life was revolved around sport, and I guess that natural athletic identity, which has its pros, has its cons, providing you look at it in a in a right context, and it's another thing I explore, right?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: But that athletic identity really formed a huge part of who I am today, and I think you know, naturally that identity that I brought along with me of now been able to build it a lot more, whereas you know, 14-year-old me probably only ever saw myself as an athlete, as a tennis player, right?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: And as a result of that, once I started to not enjoy it, I went, I'm I'm not that person anymore, that's not who I am, and kind of detracted myself away.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I think naturally the athletic identity part of who made me who I am today, and and yes, whilst it's a small part of me now, back then it was a huge bit that's I guess drove me to go, as long as it's it's in sport, I don't care.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: So that was the I guess the the kind of the the approach that I then took.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, fantastic.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me now then, how do you engage with athletes?
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: What's that, what what is the relationship like across and you mentioned three different sort of sporting sectors there that you perhaps operate?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: What's your what types of engagement do you have with them and and how do you seek to help them?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess it's it's all a real mix where you could either be, you know, you could be working with people on a one-to-one, you could be working with people on a two-to-one, small group kind of components, whether that's just that kind of consultancy delivery, whether it's more of a like a group dynamic workshop environment or something like that, um, but also organizational, looking at sole purpose of behavior change, looking at underpinnings of psychology through policies or documents, or you know, understanding okay, what do we need to do from kind of top top-down uh approach?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: So that could be simply you know, some things that I've been doing and exploring is creating like a mental education curriculum that can be delivered to coaches, support staff, and all the way down to you know, coach uh players and also parents, etc.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: So formulating this curriculum, which makes it sound a bit more teachery and a bit more, no, not as fun, right?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: But having that at our disposal to then deliver it.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it could be myself delivering it, it could be co-delivered, you know.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: I guess it completely depends on the context.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right, in those sports, because the bit you know, the athletes themselves, because you've for me you've described sports that are team-based, that are perhaps more individual, individualized in some respects as well.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: Do you find that your the way in which you need to engage with them as athletes is is different?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: To a degree, yeah, yeah.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'd say I say, you know, ironically, everyone's different, right?
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: However, you know, how someone engages, I think one thing, and I'm sure you're, you know, from from doing kind of public speaking or going into kind of group environment settings or something, you're not always going to get everyone, right?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you know, in those opportunities, especially when you're in a it's more of a personal note where you're looking at the mental side.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a very different ball game sort of uh scenario where it's it's not something that they naturally do.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: You've really got to tap into okay, if I can read the room, because that's only what I do, right?
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: My my aim is to read people and then understand them and etc.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: If I can read the room and then adapt that session to make sure that you know that one you know, that one child who doesn't really talk to many people or this, that, and the other, they're quite quiet and they don't really get involved with these sort of things.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: What can I do in that moment to go?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, you know what?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: My goal from today isn't to focus on the the whole group, but it's to get that person back involved.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Or it's to get them to come away with something that they can go, actually, I can go apply that.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and I I I guess my core premise across all those components, whether it's an individual sport, a team sport.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Or an organization, any environment is ultimately we want to make psychology as simple as possible.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: We don't whilst yes, I might use the occasional fluffy word and this, that, and the other, right?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because naturally that's I think it comes out.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: We want to make it as simple as possible.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: We want it to be actionable.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: We want people to just be able to go, you know what?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need to know all the theories behind this stuff.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: I can just go and do it, right?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the kind of thing.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Why is that important?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Why is this why simplifying?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because it is our brains are complex.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: Why is simplifying it important?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think I think it's a great point that naturally, yes, our brains are so complex, but that's where our our challenges lie, right?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that naturally our brain is constantly thinking, right?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's a constantly thinking thing, right?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: That that's always, always kind of acting.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, that can have good things and it can have very bad things.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: That keeping things simple helps us reduce this idea of a cognitive load, right?
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: So naturally, if you're in a pressure environment, if you're under the cush, you're in a performance setting, or you're just you know trying to do get better in something, you know, enhance your your change or behaviours, etc., your brain naturally is telling you to do the opposite of that.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: People don't like change, so of course it's you know it's telling you to do the other things for it.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: So making psychology and and making it simple and actionable and just being able to go, this is what it is, this is how you could do it, and let's go give it a go, reduces all that load, right?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because if I know actually I just need to do this one little thing, you know, forming habits or keeping a routine, right?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: If I just do this one little thing at this moment, I should be able to overcome this challenge.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't then have to think about all of the other things that are going on around me or you know in my environment and stuff like that.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I think simplicity, and I think also because it makes people realize that actually psychology itself is pretty simple.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: It is actually quite easy to get your head around once you open your ears and choose to listen to it.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where naturally those stigmas, which I think we'll talk about anyway today, but those stigmas around what psychology looks like and the the mental aspect, people think oh, it's too difficult, or I don't need it, or you know, it's just you know, it all it is is talking and feelings and blah blah blah.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I think that's that leads into it.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get into that piece then, right?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm interested to understand perhaps it's a time or maybe an athlete you work with, or someone you're working at at the moment who is you know, I guess they're with you because there's a challenge.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: Let's assume they're aware of it.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um that you know, at least the output they're not getting there.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: Talk me through how you, you know, work with someone or work with them or team or you know, work with them to overcome it, to realise it, and what are the kind of steps that you take people through to help them?
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I think one thing that I'd like to kind of start with is that there's this natural tendency to assume that something's wrong, we need fixing, right?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's the main reason why people reach out in psychology, right?
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: They uh they establish that maybe my performance has had a bit of a dip in the last few weeks.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I need to go speak to someone in psychology, right?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: I need to speak to a psychologist because they'll fix me, right?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: And this this fixer kind of mentality, I think, shines through quite a lot.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: One thing I kind of say right from the get-go is just because you're you know your performance slumped, or this is or you're looking to kind of overcome this challenge, etc., it doesn't mean that you're broken.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean you need fixing, right?
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: It just means that in these lowest, you know, lower, I guess, states of mind, and I'm I'm talking where you know people refer to low motivation or low confidence.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll get on to why I've air quoted confidence, right?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, those those scenarios where maybe our performance is not at our best, all we're trying to do in those moments is uplift the coping strategies that will help us manage that that situation.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then on the flip side, when we are at our best, you know, what our 10 out of 10 performance looks like, we're just making sure that those coping strategies there, that working automatically, right?
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're doing their own thing.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to think about it.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: We're just making sure that we're either maintaining them so that they're keeping doing that, or we're enhancing them.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're kind of pushing them to that next level.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: So we're just trying to balance the scale, I guess, so to speak.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's one thing that I try to get away, uh get across straight away because you know, like I guess, like like you, I guess imagine that you know, if if I've got a slumpy performance, if I've you know burnt myself out, if I've you know got an injury, the first thing I need to do is is speak to someone and hopefully they'll fix me.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: There are too many stories of bankruptcies, mental health issues, and unfortunately suicide.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it's time for to act.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: Every year we see thousands of athletes that reach a point where they need to consider their life activity sport.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: It might be a retiming, injury, or they need to juggle your careers between sport and a job.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: As a former English professional footballer, I have somehow managed to transition from sport into banking, strategy, innovation, and now life coach, career practitioner, and founder of the Second Wind Academy.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to help those around me find their career second with.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: Find me on Insta or through my new Facebook group, Second Wind Academy, where I'd love to know your thoughts and suggestions.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, well, that's kind of right, because I I think there's a well, it's not working, so I just gotta fix it.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because um, especially as an athlete, a technique, I've lost the ability to do that, I need to fix that.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: So what you're telling me is our brain, the mental part of it isn't quite just fixed.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: But if it's not fixed, what is it and how do you convey that message?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think you know, naturally, all we are trying to do, you know, our role at the end of the day is to get them to a point where they don't need us anymore.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, to to ultimately be able to self-therapise, right, in the sense that we've now got the tools, we've got the techniques, we've got the strategies to notice that situation, you know, potential triggers and what might you know take place, take it on myself, deal with it in a way that's helpful, like I mentioned earlier, and come out at the end going, actually, I've been able to overcome those unhelpful thoughts, or you know, whatever the goal, because obviously everyone's got a different goal at the end of the day, but whatever their goal is, is how have we met that?
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I I think for me it's you know, I guess let's take me, right?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm so I'm here and I'm thinking, I love doing these podcasts, these conversations because I'm learning and what I get a sense is that people are learning whilst I'm learning because we we're just everyone's just watching this conversation and we're we're going forward.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things that I I I don't do is commercialize it.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't get it out there, and people say you need to fix that, you need to go in and you need to change it, and don't be happy with this being there to help people.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: But use it in order to, you know, make it uh as big as Joe Rogan and and things on those lines.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: How would you fix my mindset there?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Surely.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it's fixing.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: What would you do?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a good question.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, I think that that boils down to what is your perception, right?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: What do you define as success, right?
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: Some people might go, it's to commercialise it, it's to be the biggest thing.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now, those people have a very different mindset and different approach to you, a different perspective, right?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what we ultimately would look to find in that scenario, and yes, okay, it's not technically sport, but I think it's the same, the same thing applies, right?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what's your definition of success?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what is it that you would like to get out of it?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: Is it that because if it's that financial side or you know the commercialised side or whatever it may be, then what we need to do is we need to find out how we get there.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: We need to ultimately adapt that thinking.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because if that's truly what you're looking for and it's it aligns with, I guess, your kind of core values and your foundations of who you are, we need to adapt that way of thinking to you know go from there and also okay, adapt.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: What are we gonna do?
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: What's the action plan and how are we gonna kind of achieve that?
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, whereas you know, if it's truly actually my core, you know, my core reasoning for doing it is to educate, is to provide a platform for people to, I guess, find out topics or explore things that they've necessarily not even heard of or whatever, and give them that that opportunity to listen, then you've got to be able be able to go, am I accepting of that scenario, that perspective?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: And am I able to actually go to these people?
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because actually it's probably a very hard conversation to go, no, I don't believe in that.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't think that's that's not my thing.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because actually, yeah, they're thinking from a different way.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got to you've got to be self-accepting to go, actually, that is truly who I am, and then of course direct those actions and those next things that you do which align with normally who who you are.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that would be the focus of understanding what one do you truly want to follow and making sure that either you're self-accepting of it or you challenge the way that you're maybe that's getting in your way at the moment.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean that that's interesting because you you're talking about that core reasoning that you know, the core reasoning, that purpose, starting with why, I'll quote, but at least he's coined it now, he's taken the phrase that everyone else would have said.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: But but we're we're starting with that core reasoning.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: And with that then is defining success.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: So if you know what it is that you truly want, then get into a definition of what success is.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then you mentioned two things that I thought were were they opposite, I'm not sure, but one was adapting and perhaps moving into the coping, but adapting strategies, and the other one is this acceptance of where you are.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I get a sense then it it could be you know, you you picked that up, that was I know that was we were using me as whatever just came to my mind.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: But that's that is sort of this underlying approach that you're talking to that that I guess people need to be able to think of when it's either performance in a sporting context, but then probably translates quite well, certainly as you're looking at well in an athlete transition state as well.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think you know that the especially the acceptance piece, because you know, naturally that's the hardest thing to do, you know, as as an individual, as a as a person, to be able to accept your situation, accept who you are, accept that things might not go to plan, or you know, people have different opinions to you, etc.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: etc.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard, it's difficult to do, right?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because everyone else is telling you otherwise.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Your brain's telling you otherwise, right?
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's saying, don't do this, don't do that, don't do that, I can't do this, I can't do that, right?
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: So everything and everything is against you.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, that's why being self-accepting is probably the hardest thing.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: But if you can do it, you know, you're on to a real winner when it comes to your your day, your casual day, but also in especially in a performance setting.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if I can be accepting, and yes, I'm I'm reeling it back, but if I can be accepting of actually I will make mistakes, and you know, if I can accept that that will happen, I'm gonna be much more flexible when I make a mistake than quite rigid or quite you know aggressive towards myself or quite self-destructive when I do make one.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: And with that, we talk about I know many said practice makes perfect, um we train, we we every day we as athletes you push yourself to the limit to be to achieve perfection, right?
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um this excellence in indeed and right but we all chasing it, isn't that why we're training and why we do double training and triple training?
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: So then acceptance goes against the grain, right?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: It does, it does.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it goes against everything that we spend those early years training towards, uh, because it's all about the physical piece, and then as soon as I become an an elite athlete and I get psychological performance training, you're telling me to accept errors.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that also causes a bit of a rift, right?
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: It it does, because it's like I've made it, right?
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: So now you're telling me it's okay to to to not seek well, to not be perfect or not to seek perfection.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure, because I I think the real question getting to is talk, how do we go about accepting?
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean it's easier said than done, right?
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the the easiest way.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one thing I'm I'm saying is don't be accepting and saying, oh well, it's just a it's just a mistake, whatever, right?
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because you still want you've still got that desire, right, to succeed.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's always gonna be there, right?
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: So saying I'm you know, I guess the term acceptance here is more just going, if it happens, I'm not gonna dwell on it, I'm not gonna then let it spiral me out of control.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I think perfectionism or trying to achieve perfection, we all know, we don't want to admit it, right?
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: Some people say they are, right?
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: But perfection doesn't exist, it's not physically possible to achieve that.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: But do we try to aspire to reach those levels?
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course we do, right?
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because if we could, well, it'd be brilliant, right?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, life isn't like that.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: You are valuable, humans make mistakes, right?
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: We do it every single day.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Whether we try to or not, it doesn't really matter, right?
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: We we make mistakes now.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: An easy way of of of challenging perfectionism, and and I'm not saying perfectionism is all bad, right?
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's all negative, and and you know, because there are mo there are definitely moments, things of it that makes it work good.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: No, so I'm gonna go off a bit of a off topic here, but perfectionism is it's broken down into kind of two different sides.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got strivings and you've got concerns.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: So the strivings are that real kind of desire to succeed and pushing those expectations, having real high goals, right?
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas the concerns are things like overthinking, repetitiveness or and or tr forcing yourself to do more and more and more, right?
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then of course that has that kind of knock-on effect.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: So whilst yes, perfectionism is a thing and and people, you know, I guess experience it, educating on what is the good bits and how can we get the good bits from it, make sure the other bits are dealt with is a is an important one because you know I think similarly to what you kind of touched upon, when I'm trying to strive for perfection, my brain is telling me to never make a mistake.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because if I do, I'm an absolute failure.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I can't make a mistake today, I shouldn't make a mistake.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: If you know people term the things as easy, you know, that shot was easy, I should have, I should have scored it, I should have done this, right?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: The language we use very much shifts you know our focus on how we then approach it the next time, right?
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: If I said to myself, I should never miss a one-on-one, right?
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: That just a flat out statement, I should never miss a one-on-one.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: How much pressure that puts on me on the next time I go have a one-on-one, because the the word should suggest that there's only one alternative, there's only one outcome.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's it goes in, right?
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: I I score this one-on-one.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: We know across the board that players miss professionals, and I think one thing I love to do with clients, with teams, organizations is go look for your favourite player in any of your sports.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: Go look at your favorite team.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: If you if it's professional, they'll have all their stats there, that it's all readily available.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they can't hide from it, whereas maybe you you can at your you know you're in the younger years, etc.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: But go look at their sports, and even the best with the best.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: In your head, you've probably inflated their percentages, you've probably inflated their their stats, right?
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: You go look and actually most of them, most of them miss a lot.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: Most of them make mistakes, most of them don't win everything, right?
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because if they did, sport would be boring.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, it's interesting.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: That is a probably good activity, very simple activity to to go and do that that research, yeah, because you uh without it becoming a negative find where they're wrong.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's but you'll find it like that, right?
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: You'll find it like that.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but they're not perfect.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, interestingly enough, uh uh you were you mentioned Harry Kane and he took the penalty the other day and the stat came up for his last penalties, and he scored something like 48 out of 51.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: Now it would be 49 out of 52 penalties that that he'd taken.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you think yeah, he missed he did miss a couple, but it's not 100%.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's not it wasn't you know 52 out of 52.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's really close with the practice and everything that comes there, but it does mean yeah, there is an acceptance that you you will miss, but clearly he gets back up and he takes them again.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, right?
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's the acceptance piece, right?
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess that links back into well, what's the helpful thought that comes off the back of it?
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's not well, at least very quickly, it stops being, oh no, eat me alive.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: It then becomes right, get back up and to drive a helpful behaviour or those helpful actions that follow.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, one thing I think as well there to be aware of, yeah, okay, he's so he's missed three, three or two.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: Maths wasn't my strongest point there, I forgot, but he's missed a few, right?
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, maybe he's got what a 94% thing for England or or for his penalties, right?
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: Massive, right?
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: If you bite your hand off, right, you'd bite your hand off.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, I think most players would, but naturally, you know, he probably is probably it at points, he's at his brain has ate him up alive because he's missed those, you know, missed those two.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: And the acceptance piece is going, well, I can either think that way and go, well, I can never miss again, right?
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not just then saying, Oh, you know, back to my point.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: He's not approaching that next penalty going, oh well, if I miss, I miss.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: But he's he's approaching with, I really want to score this, and I'm gonna do everything I possibly can to score this.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: And if I don't, yeah, there's gonna be more opportunities because that's who I am as a striker, right?
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that way of thinking compared to I shouldn't miss this today, or I've let the whole team down, how am I gonna approach that?
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: How am I gonna strike that ball, right?
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: So that acceptance piece there is a belief in my ability to then go, it doesn't really matter if I miss or not, but if I put myself in a position, I'm more likely to do so, right?
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I think that, and of course, just to kind of one final point I want to make on that is, and the reason why I get people to do that kind of task and that exercise is if I'm a youth athlete or I'm someone who's not at a professional level, and even if I am at a professional level, I've done it with them as well, right?
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: If I assume that I shouldn't or the language I use, I have to score this, I can't make mistakes, right?
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: And all this stuff that I say, if I'm telling myself that in my head, but the best of the best in my sport are missing, are losing, are doing this, that would suggest that technically my ability and where I am is above them, right?
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, me as a a 14-year-old academy footballer, I'm looking, I'm saying to myself, I shouldn't be missing these one-on-ones, blah, blah, blah.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: But then I'm watching Harry Kane go miss a sitter, you know, for for England on the biggest stage, right?
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: And uh yeah, he scored 70 odd goals this this year, right?
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, so then I'm trying to I there's a mismatch of well, actually, no, I need to there I need to be an acceptance of where I am and go, it's fine to not be there, but I can try and aspire there.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I mean what you're really talking about is in this in this example and in this bit that we're talking about, and I I think as individuals we will compare ourselves to 100%.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas in essence, we should compare ourselves to a real population and do research.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: So when we're looking to do something or assessing perhaps how we feel, it's bring perspective, get a view on well, what's actually happening out there.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: Don't just don't just assume oh well I've got yeah, it has to be perfect.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's no no, go and we'll see what the best of the best are doing before you assume for sure.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, yeah, and that's a really good point because you know, linking back to when I talked about those different different voices, right?
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: That inner critic voice that you mentioned is self-critical, negative, etc.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: Unhelpful, you know, large premise of it.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: That voice is built off assumptions, you know, those assumptions are made.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I like you like you said, unless I look at the different perspective, I actually take a second to just pause and test my thinking.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: I will act on my impulse.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, naturally, then if I'm angry and I'm listening to that voice, my impulse is to go do something probably that I shouldn't do, but I'm gonna do it because I'm angry, right?
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I act on that impulse.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if I actually just took a couple of seconds to take a step back and think about the situation, then I'm probably not gonna go two-foot someone out of anger, right?
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: Or I'm not gonna smash that tennis ball straight into the net out of you know, out of anger or you know, get a double fault because I've just put all my my pure power into it, right?
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna re-strategize, I'm gonna go, okay, I've thought about this.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: What am I gonna say differently now?
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: What am I gonna do differently now, right?
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think perspective makes a huge, huge, huge difference because that is what keeps us keeps us back on track, you know, without that little annoying little voice in our head talking.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so so I think um I'm interested now in I guess any experiences that you've had with individuals who are starting or in that navigation period of of their career, um you know, of any sort, any sort of transition shift that comes in.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: And how might this way of thinking help them to navigate that period of uncertainty that's coming up when they're really thinking, well, what's next?
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: For sure, for sure.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think one thing I want to touch upon there is that perspective of what the uncertainty is.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: First, we need to find the crux of why I'm why do I feel uncertain?
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, naturally, when that inner critic voice is is going on in our head, we don't necessarily hear it in that moment, right?
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: We're not necessarily listening to it at all times, but we notice the feeling.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if I feel uncertain, I need to ask myself, what is the thinking behind this?
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: What is the thought behind the feeling?
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because if I don't spot that as quickly as possible, that uncertainty, that unease that I'm gonna feel is just gonna sit there, it's gonna linger, right?
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because, like I said, that assumption that's being made in my head, if I'm not noticing it or I'm not really listening, you know, it's just kind of sitting there, that's just gonna play out over and over and over.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: And if I'm going through a transition, if I'm going through these early stages of my career and all these so much is going on, and I constantly allow that, just those feelings to sit there and not manage them, then when it comes four, three, four years down the line and I've not dealt with how do I deal with these feelings, right?
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: And how do I deal with these unhelpful thinking patterns, then it's not really gonna make I'm gonna be even worse off when I was three years ago because I've not had that ability to go, okay, let me just firstly notice these thinking these thinking patterns, right?
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: Are they helpful or are they unhelpful?
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: If they're helpful, Let's keep them going, right?
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: If they're unhelpful, we need to change them.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: We need to challenge them, right?
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: Or check them.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, first things first.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: One, I guess, one easy tool that I think is the simplest way, you know, it's very, very simple.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it's called the three C's, right?
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: Ultimately, it helps us go from unhelpful thinking to helpful thinking.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: The first C is catch, catch the thing, cat catch the ant, like I mentioned earlier, that automatic negative thought.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: What's the thought behind the feeling?
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: If we can notice that, great, we're on to a winner already, because we're stopping stopping them from sitting there.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: Second one, check, uh, check or challenge, right?
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: Check's a bit easier to remember, challenge is a bit more word, you know, wordy in in the mouth, right?
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: But check it.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by that is let's actually pause and test, like you mentioned earlier, you know, take a quick step back, and it might only take us a couple seconds.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: We might have all day, right?
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever, whatever the scenario is, let's check it.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by that is let's check for the accuracy.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: So have I told my something that there's not really much truth to?
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if I've said, oh, I'm a failure because I've just missed a sitter, let's have a look at what my sporting history looks like.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: Let's look at the recent successes I've had, right?
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: Let's balance out the argument.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because if that inner critic's talking, I would probably say that 99.9% of those thoughts that it says are very much outweighed by the evidence, right?
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: So can we find the truth to our thoughts?
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because if if there's no truth, well, we know we're not really on to a winner.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think the other part of this section, the the second C, so check is is this thought helpful to me?
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: Nice simple question to ask yourself, right?
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: If I say this thought over and over to me right now, what's likely to happen?
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'll probably avoid, probably won't be vocal on the pitch, I probably will withdraw from the situation.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to be here, right?
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: If I know that it's not helpful to me, I need to change it, right?
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: At the bottom line a bit.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then that third C, so we've got catch, check, change.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: Nicest one is find something that's helpful, you know, find something that's going to switch you to perform or just switch you to do what you want to do, right?
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: And and well and truly, you know, what is that adaptive response?
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: Not just positive, right?
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, it might not always be positive, but largely it probably will be fueled because what we're doing there, that change is going, actually, it's a load of rubbish because X, Y, Z, and we're bringing in all that evidence to reinforce where where I should be in my head, rather than just going, I've listened to that first voice and taking it as gospel.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: I like that, Tyler.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: I like the three C's.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: We can remember those.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um that is good.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: If I can catch, check, and change.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: And you brought back, which is good, the ant, because that was a question I was going to ask, what is that?
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: But you said that automatic negative thought, and those are the things that we want to, I guess, just check.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: And again, it's the that checking for accuracy, that checking for helpfulness and the awareness to do that.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I can you know, the way you explain it allows me perhaps to put better into words, or you will do eventually whilst I finish processing it, but it's put better into words how as I guess athletes who go through that kind of training, that kind of performance, um, you know, but the the likes of yourselves, it's learning how to do that.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: You can bring it off field or out of the court, out of the pool to help you in everyday life as well.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: Where uh, you know, you just you it's the tool which is hold on, what am I what am I thinking?
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: I and being aware of what you're thinking, and then being able to, like you say, um check it and you know, challenge it in or change it in in that regard as well.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that is I like that.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: Nice and simple, easy to remember as well.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: Nice and easy, yeah, yeah.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's nice and easy, right?
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you know, people you can put it on a post-it note and tap, put it on your bag, you can put it in your notes page, because people love using their phone these days, right?
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: You can write it down on your hand, right?
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: Something is simple, you know.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever it is, you can have it where you know, some people I've you know, I've they've said to me, Oh, what I've done is I've just put random post-it notes up around my house on the fridge or you know, on this cupboard, their favourite cupboard, maybe they've got snacks in there, right?
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever it is, right?
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: But some whatever the tool, whatever the technique that we might we might cover, that's what it is.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a constant reminder because all it requires you to do is be consistent with it, you know, similar to that physical side, etc., if you're training all the time, you know, you know, it's it's common nature.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, this is where the mental part, we just need to practice more because actually, when you notice that actually catch-check change is a very simple process, and actually I could do it on my way to work, I could do it on my way to training, I could do it after I've had an argument, right?
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever, you know, whatever scenario, you know.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: I I think you know, I could have easily done it before I came onto the podcast today, right?
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: Where I think, you know, oh I'm a bit nervous, right?
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: You can easily do it at any moment.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, once you do it as much as possible, it becomes so easy.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: And because it then becomes so easy, it becomes part of your game, part of your performance, which is the gap the that's the goal, right?
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: If we can get you to put it as part of your performance to go, I do have the capability to change my unhelpful to helpful thinking, my unhelpful behaviours to my helpful behaviours, right?
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: We're already going to be in a in a great position compared to before.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's well said.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: And and so, you know, with that Tyler, I guess it does make me think I like the three C's because we spoke about the need to simplify things as complex as this area can be.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: You've you've managed to break that down into those three C's, and I I've really liked that.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks for doing that.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: And look, I I actually really do want to then thank you for your time for for just bringing your perspective onto the show, because for me it's been for me it's been really helpful, and I think for those watching and listening, they're gonna find it um um certainly useful.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'll keep using helpful because that's what you said, it's a bit helpful strategies.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's right.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: So how do listen, people are gonna want to get in touch or follow your journey?
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um where can they find you?
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: What's the best way to do that?
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I think either my website or Instagram is probably my best bet.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it will probably be in the podcast um bio anyway, because I sent it over.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, so it'll be in there.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um but T E Sport Psyche is my my uh handle.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um so T-E-S-P-O-R-T and then T-S-Y-C-H-E.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: Nice and nice and simple there.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, feel free, you know.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: I I love a chat, so you know, I'm all for all for talking, all for uh conversation.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's I also offer you know no no strings attached kind of discussions and and sessions as well.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I'm always always it all is to find out people's different experiences, find out where they are in their journey.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: I guess you're also how I can kind of support from that side of things as well.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, no, thank you as well for your your time.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a really good conversation, a very helpful conversation uh as well.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: Tyler, thanks a lot for joining the show today.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Ryan.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening to this week's episode.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: Reshaping a career is a team sport.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: Don't do it alone.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: If you want help working out your next step, it's all at secondwindadvisory.com forward slash academy.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: Book a conversation with me there, and the link is also in the show notes.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: Now, a couple more things.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: Send this episode to the person you thought of while you were listening.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's how this show reaches the people who need it.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Ryan Gonçalves, take it easy, and I'll see you next time.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, before I do go, I want to drop a short thanks to Claire at Betty Brook Design, Nancy at Savvy Podcast Solutions, and Therese at Copying Content by Lola.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: Without them, this show would never have got together.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.