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Is Romance Dead in Gay Culture? · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:05
  Speaker A: Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I am your host, Matt Lansadel, and joining me today is the fabulous Michael Diorio and Reno Johnston. Welcome, boys. Today we are talking about the romantic gay man in each of you. All of us, all three of us here and everyone listening. We all have that side of us. Some of us, it's larger than others, and some of us might be smaller, but we all have that part of us that wants to be loved and wants to connect deeply and wants to be swept off of our feet. So today we're going to be unpacking a couple questions to dive into this topic. What are your thoughts on romance in gay culture? How do you bring romance into dating? And how do you like to be swept off your feet? So what we want you to get out of today's episode is just a deeper understanding of your own romantic fantasies and desires and new ways to bring that into your romantic relationships so you can contrast what we're talking about today and see what comes alive in you. And maybe you can bring more romance into your dating and relationships. If you're new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. And if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe and leave us a review. This helps us get into the ears of the people who need us. And this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy what we're creating, you can go over to support the community by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes, or you can tap the thanks button on YouTube. And we also have an early access option on Apple Podcast where you can get early access to episodes. And this support does help us continue to grow and build our lovely community, the Gaiman's Brotherhood. All right, so I describe myself as a hopeless romantic, or I like to actually use the terms hopeful romantic. I. Ever since I was a little boy, I've had, like a love fantasy of meeting the guy of my dreams and getting married. And unfortunately, it hasn't played out that way. I've had a lot of karmic, challenging relationships which have been beautiful in their own right, but they have. I've needed them to grow, to evolve. They've taught me a lot. But I still am hopeful. A hopeful romantic in the sense that I know that a person is going to come into my life, that I'll be able to close a chapter with and the chapter of my life with and. And get married and all that sort of stuff. So I wanted to talk about that today and. And coincidentally, it ends up being Valentine's Day tomorrow when we're recording this. So it was kind of ironic that we had chose this topic a few weeks back, not even knowing it was going to be that. So I want you to. To think as the viewer listener, just about your own love fantasy. I think we all have a love fantasy that we've created, and sometimes it's when we're younger, sometimes we have to grieve our love fantasy and let go of attachments to it so we can let new experiences in. And then for people that are more hopelessly romantic, they probably are the ones that hold on to the. Their love fantasies really strong and they want to create the love story that they've really, you know, maybe believe is possible for them. So. But I find romance is challenging in gay culture because we have such a strong emphasis and prioritization around hookup culture. And I do believe that hookup culture can not always, but it can kill romance to some degree. So I wanted to have a conversation today about ways that we can bring in romance and what it's like to be romantic. And I know we've talked about this on different episodes, just lightly, but I know you two have a romantic side to you, so I want to learn a bit about your romantic sides.
• 3:45
  Speaker B: And.
• 3:45
  Speaker A: Yeah, so let's, let's kick off. So let's start with you, Michael. What are your thoughts on romance in gay culture? Like, what does even romance mean? Maybe, like, what does it mean to be romantic? Could be.
• 3:56
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question. I actually like that. I like that better. I'll. I'll respond to that one because I have a lot of thoughts on romance and gay culture. But I think for me, romance is not the big sweeping things that maybe we thought or maybe we saw in like, Disney movies and romcoms growing up. I mean, I did used to think that, but as I've grown, that's not quite. It's not even what I want, actually. But yeah, to answer the question, what is romance? To me, being present is the first thing that comes to mind. Someone who gives me their attention and I give them my attention. In this world where our attention is divided every which way, attention is sacred. So that, that's, that's romance to me. Someone who takes initiative, who expresses how they feel, who says, hey, listen, I really like you. I really like spending our time together. This has been really Nice. I really enjoy your company. Like, people don't say that in gay culture. I think it's just very much like, oh, yeah, I guess you're okay, or. Or even if they do like you, it's like, I can't show him that I like him. I have to be aloof. There's a lot of that. So letting your guard down by. By actually expressing, hey, listen, I really enjoy you expressing those true feelings, having emotional courage and vulnerability. I guess the word I'm looking for here is under that big umbrella of vulnerability that is romance to me. Um, all of that and taking an initiative. For me, someone who can take that initiative is. Is. Is very sexy to me, and I find that romantic. So I think those things require trust. They require courage, vulnerability, authenticity. All the things we talk about here on the podcast, intimacy. And we know very well that, that a lot of people have a hard time with those things, especially gay men. So I don't actually think that the gay men lack romance. I think we just don't have a refined skill set of those things that I just named emotional courage, intimacy, authenticity, all these things. But I do think a lot of people, Matt, have. Have that kind of fantasy that you described in the opening. I think a lot of guys resonate with that, but I just think we are so afraid, and I think that's what it is. So it's not like we lack romance. I just don't think we know how to get there. It's. It's a bridge too far for a lot of us.
• 6:02
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It sounds like fear. Like fear kind of kills romance. Right. We want to keep things. The word that stood out to me in what you just shared was being aloof.
• 6:11
  Speaker B: Right.
• 6:11
  Speaker A: And to be romantic, I think we have to be willing to let somebody know we really like them. We want to sweep them off their feet. Right. And that's vulnerable to. To really create gestures like that.
• 6:22
  Speaker B: Yeah. You know, it doesn't help. It doesn't help. There's that. The internal stuff, but it also doesn't help the kind of outside, external culture we're in in general. This is for straight folks, too. The swipe kind of culture of dating these days. Like swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe. It's very consumer ish. Like, here's. Here's the shopping list I'm looking for. You know, that is just the world we live in, and it' a gay thing. So I think I'm seeing that across the board. There's a sense of detachment and being ambiguous and Playing hard to get and all the stuff is kind of the opposite of Roman.
• 6:52
  Speaker A: Yeah. Like collecting people on apps, it's like makes people feel disposable. And I do think romance, it should make us want, feel special.
• 7:00
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 7:01
  Speaker A: Like when somebody does romantic things for us, it, it makes us feel like we're special. Where you unique to them and they, they desire us.
• 7:07
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that would be nice. I think we'd all like that. That feeling of being chosen. That's what it is, that feeling of being chosen. Like I choose you.
• 7:15
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 7:16
  Speaker B: Like wholeheartedly, without any doubt. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 7:21
  Speaker A: What about you, Reno? What is this stimulating for you, this conversation?
• 7:25
  Speaker C: I love that word stimulating. Well, I think it's a bit nuanced on my end because. Yeah, akin to what was mentioned. I think we all have the capacity for romance and I looked up the definition which I actually know by heart because this is one of my favorite words. It's a quality or feeling of mystery, excitement and remoteness from everyday life. And that's in sort of the non, let's say relational sense. But then there's also a feeling of excitement and mystery associated with love. And I think that my experience of romance, not just in gay culture but kind of across the board is that, you know, we use this like the word, the word mystery, the word excitement, the word remoteness from every day or the, you know, this, this phrase remoteness from everyday life. Like to me these exists within sort of a spaciousness like where there's openness. And I think that oftentimes in, in gay culture and again I think just in dating and relational culture in general, there's so much, so much ego and there's so much, there's so many boxes and, and, and rules and there can be so much performance. Right. And there's, I just think surrounding all of this, there's significant dating and relationships. Surrounding dating relationships, there's significant conditioning. And as a result of that, I think sometimes it's difficult for romance to sweep in and happen because what we have to give up is all that other stuff, all of our hang ups in order to make space for love, for mystery, for, for remoteness from everyday life, for excitement. Right. For anticipation. And so I think that's, you know, I think that's part of our problem. And again it's, it's in gay culture, but I don't think it's just in, in gay culture also. I also feel like, you know, it's interesting. Heated rivalry has become a hot topic obviously. And I have critiques of that show. And also I think something it did well in some cases is that whole romantic piece even while creating the typical anxious, avoidant detachment story and narrative, which again was kind of annoying as well. It's like, oh, you, you know, guy really likes other guy. Guy is avoidant. Like, of course, you know, I'm so tired of it. But you know, whatever, whatever. So yeah, it's. And then, you know, when we talk about, like when we talk about hookup culture and we talk about app culture and grinder culture, I again, I come back to this whole thing around, you know, what, what do we really want? Is it romance that we want or is it, is it control that we want? Is it romance that we want or is it certainty that we want? Right. Because again, romance has this kind of, like I said this, for lack of a better word, like whimsy about it. And, and so are we making room for that or are we, are we devoted to our hang ups instead? Right. So it's kind of how I'm viewing romance in the gay culture. I don't think it's absent. I just think it's lacking significantly. Yeah, yeah.
• 11:11
  Speaker A: When does it come, where does it come in? Do you guys think, like in gay culture, where is it? Where it's like, you can see it, it's available. Is it like, like, well, the relationships. More like the hookups might be. Because gay men tend to hook up more then they're. The hookups turn into relationships. So sex comes first and then, you know, the stuff comes after. So maybe romance is happening in relationships and it's just not visible. I don't know.
• 11:36
  Speaker C: Love this question. And I think like, there are a couple angles that I would approach it from. So when it comes to hookups, I think, I don't think that the notion of a hookup and the notion of romance contradict one another. I think they can coexist. And I know from personal experience that they can because I've even had people that I've hooked up with say like, oh my gosh, you're so romantic, or that was so romantic. Right. So they, I, they can coexist. I don't think they contradict each other. But the issue is that when hookups become, I love it when hookups become transactional. Right. And rooted in ego, essentially. Right. And listen, I, you know, the ego gets a bad rap. I think that there's a place for it and it serves a purpose. It's just a terrible master and a wonderful servant. Right. And so when it's sort of taken over. Then suddenly there just. There isn't, there isn't a whole lot of room. And you know, coming back to the heated rivalry thing, for example, right. You'll notice some of these moments where maybe we feel that kind of like warmth and that like, I don't know what the word is, but I want to say the warmth of romance in certain scenes in that show. And those scenes tend to be in tender moments, in sincere moments, in genuine moments. And my sense is that in those scenes, both characters, guards are down. You know, like it isn't transactional. There isn't this sort of. What's the word? Like extractive engagement happening. You know, there's sort of a lightness, an openness, a space spaciousness, a tenderness, a sincerity, a genuineness. Right.
• 13:29
  Speaker B: So, yeah, I think, first of all, I love that we're talking about Heated Driver again, because it's always goes back to that. But yeah, I think for a lot of guys we confuse it with intensity and it makes sense because romance, I think the way that I described it earlier is, is. It's kind of just, you know, it's more of a softer, lighter thing. Whereas things that are very intense like sex and, and the adrenaline that comes with hooking up and the chase and all that can be very compelling to our nervous system. And so it's very easy, I think, to just get distracted by the super hot guy who might be giving you attention when there's someone who, you know, could be a more compatible partner for you, but it's not drawing that same intensity. And I think that's just what we do. We kind of confuse intensity for intimacy. Or we say we want intimacy, but then we choose intensity. That's certainly something that I've done in my past and I still, I still have to like eat myself back.
• 14:26
  Speaker A: Yeah, same. The nervous system, all the attachment stuff is built in our nervous systems, right? And it's like, you know, we can know better, but our nervous system is just like, it goes to what's familiar, you know, even if it's painful.
• 14:38
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 14:39
  Speaker B: It's like saying you want to eat well, but then there, there's this big pepperoni pizza right in front of you. It's like, well, I mean, I want to eat well, but there's this pepperoni pizza right in front of me.
• 14:47
  Speaker C: Yeah,
• 14:50
  Speaker A: yeah. I think everybody defines romance so differently. You know, I think that's. So we can answer this. Everyone could answer this question. So different, right? Like when I think about romance, I think about thoughtfulness. That's the first word that Comes to mind, like, and very intentional. Like the person has thought out an experience that they want to create for us. And it's prioritizing, I guess, love or lust. Even if you're not at the love stage, it's prioritizing, you know, that fire between two people. Right. And like giving, you know, creating an experience where that can be. Where we can be saturated in that. That feeling, you know, that's kind of what stands out for me. And for me, it's also. There's lots of gesture in it, right? Like creating gestures of like whether that's being of service or, you know, like Reno. The thing that stands out is like lighting the candles and the chocolate strawberries and all that. Like, you know, just being very. Yeah. Wanting to make somebody's life better. Wanting to create a beautiful experience for them. Like, I think that's what being romantic means to me.
• 15:55
  Speaker C: I love what you said there. Wanting to create a beautiful experience for someone. And what I'm hearing in what you're saying is like bids for connection, bids for intimacy, bids for closeness. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 16:11
  Speaker A: I think that's maybe. And that's probably a demisexual in me, but I feel like I have a hard time wrapping my head around a hookup being romantic. And I know, I'm not saying that it can't be, but for me it's like there needs to be intentionality, thoughtfulness. It's slowed down. It takes time to build it. You know what I mean? So like a hookup, maybe if I know the person, right? And we're just having another hookup and we've created like, you know, an experience. But for me, that wouldn't really be a hookup. That would be probably more like friends with benefits, casual sex or something. Right. Like, I always think a hookup is like a one off experience. Like you're just. You're just meeting the person right then and there and you're having. So yeah, maybe you. One of you two could elaborate. Like how if you've had an experience where in a hookup where there's been romance and it's actually like, what has that been like for you?
• 16:55
  Speaker B: I. I can say quickly to that. Yes, I have had those experiences. And it's also the kind of the way we meet sometimes, but even not, not always, but it's the kind of sex we're having or. Or the kind of hookup it is, can be very romantic. Like there can be a very slow, passionate, romantic type of sex that we're having. And it's. It's Lots of eye contact and kissing and touching. And, like, that. That in and of itself can be romantic. Like, that can be the entrance way. I'm like, oh, this man is a lot more present in a lot. Like, I was not maybe expecting that. Versus, like, a wham, bam, thank you, bye. Like, I'm out of here, which is totally fine. Time and place. Yeah, I think that has been the entrance way. And then after, like, if he doesn't necessarily want to leave and he wants to stay and we chill in bed and we have some great pillow talk and we cuddle, and then the next thing you know, I'm like, wait, this was supposed to be a quick thing. And now here we are hours later, chilling, and I happen to like this guy. I didn't know much about him. Now here we are. And then that could easily, easily. And it has turned into, hey, this was fun. Let's do this again. I'd love to see you again. And then we do.
• 17:59
  Speaker A: Cool. Yeah, I like that.
• 18:01
  Speaker C: Yeah. I think I set the. The context and the container before they show up. Sometimes that can look like lighting candles or putting on music, which is not unusual for me to do. Regardless of who's showing up, it could be someone I've known for a while, and it can also be someone who's coming into my space for the first time. And so I think, like, my own energy and. And what. For me, it's the space I'm inviting them into sets the tone and the. The mood and the vibe for, like, what happens next in the space. And it's really cool to see how people respond and react when they come into the space, because it's almost like I've already, like I said, set the tone and taken the lead. And so it's almost like that energy overcomes them. Like, at first, they're like, oh, whoa. You know, and then you see them kind of settle into it, and I think they're typically surprised at the intentionality, to come back to that word that I had put into the space. And what's incredible is, like, it's. It's so simple. Like lighting a candle, you know, or just, like, putting on music. Like, it's really. It's really simple, but it can be really impactful. Yeah.
• 19:29
  Speaker A: Cool. Yeah. So I heard, like, it's not transactional. It's got passion. There's presence, the vibe. You're creating an environment. Like, there's an environment that they can come and enter, which has been created with intentionality that it's almost like you're you're creating that, like, the energy around the experience. Right. Like, you're setting the tone for that experience. Yeah, I like that.
• 19:52
  Speaker C: And intentionality. I think you use that word.
• 19:55
  Speaker B: The thing for. From mine was, I think the surprise. Like, be open to reno. Use the word mystery. And so I like that. Like, kind of be open to letting people surprise you and not necessarily putting them in a box. Like, okay, this person just wants us. And that means they're just like this, which means they're not romantic or whatever that story is. Just, who knows? You never know. Like, I've been. I've been surprised many, many times just because I'm open to, I guess, that mystery and letting people surprise me. That's the fun of it. That's. That's where romance is born.
• 20:22
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 20:23
  Speaker B: Cool.
• 20:24
  Speaker A: I like that. Yeah, it's good advice. All right, I want to hear from you guys, from the audience, drop some comments in YouTube. What does romance mean to you, and what are your thoughts on romance and gay culture? Is it alive and well? What is it? How does it show up for you? Yeah, let's get the conversation going on down there, because I think this is a really important question to hear from more people than just the three of us. And if you want to share your voice, you can come and join these discussions in our connection circles in the gay men's brotherhood. You'll have a chance to just bring up Michael and I host topics on everything. Sex and intimacy and romance and porn and all sorts of topics. So you can go to gaymansbrotherhood.com and the event section and find out which events we're going to be hosting in our connection circles. Which topics are there? So, all right, so I'm curious. Let's get a little bit more specific individually. So how do you bring romance into dating, Michael?
• 21:17
  Speaker B: All right, I'm happy that you specified dating, because for me, romance in a relationship looks very different than romance. If I'm just getting to know somebody and dating.
• 21:26
  Speaker A: We're going to answer it either way, by the way, if you want.
• 21:28
  Speaker B: Well, I'm single now, so we'll talk about dating. But yeah, in a relationship, there's. There's a level of romance which I think is deeper, and then. Then I am more of that doing the sweeping gestures kind of guy, because we're in our relationship. But when it comes to dating, which is, you know, what I'm doing now, this is a good question. It really got me thinking. How do I do that? I would say that the people that I like know I Like them, they know. They know because I show it and I will say it. For some people, that might be too much, and then I'm not your guy. For others, they love it. So I would say the word that we've been using a lot is intentional. I am very intentional. I take initiative. The thing that I like with making plans, like texting, checking in, even, like, if I know someone's had a presentation that day or they've had something going on that day, I'll send a voice note at the end of the day just to check in. Hey, how was it? How are things? You know, how'd that presentation go? How's your mom? Like, whatever was going on, which should tell them that I'm paying attention, which is what I would like. I kind of. I kind of give romance the same way I would like to receive it. Would love when people do that for me, and they do. Sometimes I just. I feel so special. So demonstrating it in simple ways. Taking. Taking initiative to make plans. And by the way, here's a big difference. How you know, I like you is there's a big difference between let's hang out sometime versus let's hang out on Tuesday. I'll make a reservation. Here's the place we're going to meet, or here's the place we're going to go, or let's hang out on Tuesday. Here are two options. Which one do you prefer? That kind of vibe versus let's hang out sometime. And the same with me. When, when, when someone does that to me, I'm like, okay, all right.
• 23:03
  Speaker C: He's.
• 23:03
  Speaker B: He's for real. So I think those are some of the things. Also, you know, instead of texting, I will send voice notes to people that I really like. Again, just to put in my. My tone and my humor. I don't think I'm. My texting is very direct and comes across as very direct. But when I do a voice note, you can see so much more of my personality. You can see when I'm joking, when I'm being little bit facetious and all that. Speaking of which, I guess another one is just lightening up too. Like, I think romance can be very fun and enjoyable and joyous and playful. So that side of me will come out and I'll bring that in. I will. I love the inside jokes and a little bit of the playfulness and banter. It's not also serious all the time. I know I come across that way sometimes, but I will let that guard down sometimes by showing my humor side and bringing that in. So, yeah, I think. I think those are some of the ways that I would do it. So if you're out there and you're listening to this and we've dated now,
• 24:00
  Speaker A: you know, where are all these guys that you. That are, like. You, like, that are like, take initiative and, like, they're. I don't know. I just find a lot of men to be, like, kind of, like, more timid or like, they want you to, like, be the one that's pursuit. Like, I like pursuers. I like when a man pursues me.
• 24:16
  Speaker C: So it's.
• 24:16
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting.
• 24:18
  Speaker C: Do you struggle with that, Matt, because of how you're packaged, for lack of better terminology?
• 24:27
  Speaker A: What do you mean?
• 24:27
  Speaker C: Well, I guess what it means is, like, my sense is that you would probably experience certain projections, right? Like. Like, it would be assumed that you would be the person taking the lead, doing the pursuing, doing the initiating, et cetera. Do you get that assumption a lot or that projection?
• 24:48
  Speaker A: Oh, all the time. And people always think I'm a top, too.
• 24:52
  Speaker C: It's just.
• 24:53
  Speaker A: It's interesting how I might. The. The outside of my package is in some ways, like, the opposite of the inside of my package. Like, it's so interesting. I've been. I've faced that my whole life, and then, yeah, the projections are alive and well in my world.
• 25:07
  Speaker C: Yeah, I get that too, because I. I feel like I hold this kind of versatility. I was having a conversation with someone at a party recently, and he was like, you're definitely a bottom. And I was like, I beg your fucking pardon? Like, it's like, yes. And, you know, I'm. I'm certainly. I. I think it is assumed in many cases that, like, that is the case, but the reality is that, yeah, there's a versatility. I've been the person who's, like, direct, making the plans, like, taking the person out, initiating, like, in the bedroom, on dates, etc. Like, I can very much be that person. And then also I can sit back and be like, you know, you take the lead. Let's go. Right. So. Yeah, yeah. Versatility.
• 25:53
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I love that. Versatility. Michael's attention to detail.
• 25:58
  Speaker B: I love that. I wonder how much of this is tied to our love languages. I was just, you know, thinking about what I was thinking about service, quality time for me, and physical touch. That's another one for me, actually. It's physical touch for dating. Like, if I touch you a lot and it doesn't. It's not sexual. Like, just, like, I just want. I just want to Touch you and I want to graze you and I want to tap your butt and whatever, like, any chance I can. That is also something. And again, it doesn't. It's not in, like, I'm doing this because I'm trying to initiate sex way. It's just because I want to. I want your. I want to touch you.
• 26:31
  Speaker A: Yeah. The best. Very handsy boyfriend. I love handsy boyfriends. Me too. What about Urina? How would you answer this? What would you add to what you've already said?
• 26:42
  Speaker C: How do I bring romance into dating? So, again, I think it's like, thoughtfulness and intentionality. Like, I love that you use those words. I really demonstrate that I've made the person a priority in my life, and it's a place for my creativity to play as well. You know, my creativity and, like, my love and my interest and my curiosity to play. So, like we discussed, it could be text messages. It could be, you know, like, dinner is going to be ready when you get home, or, like, come over. I'm. I'm making you dinner tonight, or I'm making a dinner tonight, or let's make dinner together, or let's go out together. It's little things, little surprises. Like, you know, when I was with my ex, I remember running baths and lighting candles and putting on music or, you know, just like, out of the blue, randomly straddling him and. And then us ending up, like, on the living room floor and the kitchen counter and did it, you know, but just surprise. I think the element of surprise is big, too. Adventures, day trips, weekend getaways. You know, those have been really fun as well. Or just like, going for a road trip for the day can be really nice and. And really romantic. And then, yeah, just subtle gestures, messages, phone calls, voice notes, you know, letting the person know that I care, that I'm thinking about them. And often, and especially when I'm really into a person or really interested in a person, I pay attention to detail so that they're like little things, little gestures that I can express that. That demonstrate that I have been paying attention. It might be like they said they really liked something, and then, like, out of nowhere, it's maybe placed in a spot where they can see it and they're like, oh, you know, I didn't know you clocked that. I didn't know you were paying attention to that. That's my favorite chocolate bar, you know, or. Yeah, something like that. It's just like little things like that that I think are. Are really sweet and let a person Know that you prioritize them, that you're thinking about them, and that bring again, that. That feeling of surprise and mystery and excitement into the relationship. Right. Yeah.
• 29:00
  Speaker B: All that.
• 29:03
  Speaker A: What's the most romantic thing you've ever done for somebody? Reno.
• 29:06
  Speaker C: Oh, gosh, that's a good question. I mean, I think what it was is we. We booked a. It was a weekend getaway. Yeah. And it was in bc, actually. And I splurged on this Airbnb. It was like a fancy Airbnb. And what's so interesting about that whole experience, actually, this is kind of crazy that I think about it, is that it was really romantic, but it was also like, I mean, this is the reality of these things. Sometimes it was kind of messy. I'm gonna be honest. You know, it was kind of messy and simply because, like, at that point, I think we were kind of approaching being on the way out of said relationship. Like, it did end not too long after that. So this isn't like the sweetest story. Again, like, we're still best friends, but, yeah, I would say that's one of them. And then also, like, I would say another is just like, cleaning. We come back to love languages. Like, you know, I would have the house, like, totally cleaned and laundry folded and, like, dinner made when my ex got home. Like, I loved it. And it was like, it was my joy to be, like, come, relax. I got you. You know. Yeah.
• 30:27
  Speaker A: Awesome.
• 30:28
  Speaker C: And what about you?
• 30:30
  Speaker A: How do I bring romance into dating? Geez. I think, you know, any sort of experience where pleasure will be experienced, I think. Sorry, I'm really starting to expand my. My definition and the context in which pleasure can be experienced. Because we often. Or I often associate pleasure with sex. Right. But pleasure is just this, like, beautiful word, you know? You like the word romance? I love the word pleasure. It's like, there's just something about, you know, I want more pleasure. I think this year coming up is going to bring more pleasure. So. Yeah, just thinking about how can I create pleasure for this person, Right. So I love to. To give massages. I love touching, so that's definitely one. And then. Yeah, I think you're right, Michael. Like, it's making me think of all my love languages. So quality time. That would be, like, something that I like to. So I'll plan, like, date days and, like, have a whole sequence of events and not tell them anything and let's look, you know. But oftentimes it's like, I've had guys do that, but then they plan things that they want to do and they take me along the things they want to do. And I'm like, that's not really. I want to create pleasure for that person. Person. So I'm always thinking about what would they want to do. Even if it's not something I would want to do, it's like, how can I make this day really special for them?
• 31:38
  Speaker C: Right.
• 31:39
  Speaker A: So yeah, I think those are kind of the main ones. Being of service. I'm a service oriented partner. Like I love serving my partner and yeah, as long as they're appreciating of it. Right. Like that's the biggest thing. I want to make sure that they appreciate my servitude. Yeah.
• 31:54
  Speaker C: Out of curiosity, what is. I'll ask you the same question. Like, I'm actually more interested in what the most romantic thing someone's done for you is because to me, like there are probably many things you've experienced, but it, it'd be interesting to me to see what, what stood out to you, you know, as most romantic. And Michael, I might ask you the same question as well.
• 32:16
  Speaker A: Yeah. You know, I, this is actually one of my biggest regrets with my relationship. So I was dating a guy early, early, like in my early 20s. And he was like the sweetest guy, the most romantic guy, the most thoughtful, super sexy. But I, I kind of summed him up as too nice. And he didn't activate my nervous system enough apparently now in hindsight. So I broke up with him. But he, he planned this, this rafting trip and I loved rafting at the time and like rafting down the Bow river in Calgary. And yeah, it was my birthday and he had planned, he, he contacted all my family, like every single person. There was like 40 people at this event. And he, he, he. That was the only time anyone's ever thrown me a surprise birthday party. And yeah, it was like super special. Yeah. And yeah. So it's kind of like a sadness around that I just even noticed because like I ended up breaking up with him. Like not around that time, but a little bit after. Yeah.
• 33:12
  Speaker C: So that's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And also thanks for sharing that like the, that sort of complex piece because I can totally relate where I've had like these really solid guys who are like, you know, I remember there was a guy like he wouldn't even let me open the car door. He never let me pay for that. Like, he was just so sweet. He was so chivalrous. And I just like, was not ready, you know, I was not ready in hindsight. So I feel you on that. Yeah, yeah.
• 33:43
  Speaker A: Ready to receive.
• 33:44
  Speaker B: In. In both your shares of your examples, the common thread is thoughtfulness and being made to feel special. Yeah, that's it.
• 33:56
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 33:56
  Speaker B: It's just like someone took the time to think about me and my needs and that made me feel special. I think that's what we're kind of looking at as well. We're at least the three of us are defining as romance.
• 34:07
  Speaker A: Yeah. It's interesting because I've want that here, but it's almost like my nervous system has a hard time receiving that and that's been my work. Right. And I think I'm still working on that is learning how to receive in my nervous system. Learning how to actually feel like it's okay to. To, you know, be in that. That feminine, that yin energy and that's. I've probably blocked a lot of. Just for the. But just a lot of men. I probably blocked a lot of the type of men that I'm attracted to because I have very much been and had to be in my masculine as a protector.
• 34:41
  Speaker B: Right.
• 34:42
  Speaker A: So learning how to receive is actually my work now. Moving forward and learning how to be in that receptive energy. Yeah, it's interesting.
• 34:51
  Speaker C: I'm going to ask you the same question in a sec, Michael. In response to what you just said, Matt, I think like it's interesting I'm bringing this up but like sometimes I find it maybe less so now. But there's something about a person just being really direct and really assertive in those situation when they're contending with that aspect of myself and having them just be like, listen, like sit down, you know, sit down, be quiet and like, you know, let's like, like basically calling me back into presence and really like, like taking leadership. I think there's something really sexy about that. Michael. Yeah. What? Like, what is the most romantic thing someone's done for you?
• 35:33
  Speaker B: I'm happy that you gave me a warning because I wouldn't have known right away. I didn't give you time to think about it, but I think the first that came to mind was Star. I'll mention because it's not a secret, but when we first started getting to know each other, we met online. It was during COVID through the Gaiman's Brotherhood. Of course. He was just, you know, DMing me and all these things that he. Not very long into our chatting, he had, he had like, I don't know, made some kind of comment as like, you know, you're, you're just, you're just a guy. He was In New Brunswick at the time. But you're just a guy who lives in New Brunswick. I don't know anything about you. He's like, okay, I'll be, I'll be there. And I'm like, okay, yeah, sure, whatever. Lo and behold, like, a few weeks later, he booked a flight, took it to Toronto. And it's like, I'm going to come and I'm going to meet you and I'm going to show you that, you know, I'm not just one of these guys who talks. And I was like, girl, okay, this is. This is for real. And that was very attractive. I was like, now I'm 100% attracted to you because you don't just talk shit. Which is what I'm used to. I'm used to guys who talk shit and are very flaky. And he proved to me that that's not him. And yeah, I was like, again, I feel special.
• 36:40
  Speaker A: I love that story.
• 36:41
  Speaker C: Yeah, I love it.
• 36:43
  Speaker B: And we were together for three years.
• 36:46
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 36:47
  Speaker A: All right. Yes. So question three. How do you like to be swept off your feet, Mr. Michael?
• 36:55
  Speaker B: Okay, well, the way I just said, that'll do it. I would say it's like what I had said. People. People who can maybe offer me the same things that I would offer them, that I would do for them. So as a personality, someone who knows what he wants, I think people who can do that know what they want. They're not afraid to share it, they're not afraid to show it. And, and they don't need me to. To. To lead everything. I'm. I'm a leader. I'm a natural leader. I will lead for sure. But I don't want everything to be on me, like, all the time. I'm not just talking about making plans. I'm talking about the emotional stuff too. Like, I need someone who can handle his own emotions. I don't need to manage his emotions for him. This is a big problem in the gay world. That's a topic for another day. But like I said, someone who, who, instead of saying, yeah, I really like you, let's hang out sometime. Okay, sure. Versus, like, hey, I really like you. What are you doing on Tuesday? I have this great place that I think you'd love. Here's why I think you'd love it. I'll make a reservation. Or, you know, I know you got a busy day on Wednesday. I'm coming over with food and wine. You're already nine o'. Clock.
• 37:59
  Speaker C: Great.
• 38:00
  Speaker B: Like, that kind of decisiveness sweeps me off my Feet. It doesn't need to be anything big or intense either. Like, doesn't need to be these. I know I told the story about star hopping on a plane and coming to meet me, but it doesn't have to be that. It just needs to be someone who will say what, will do what they say they're going to do and show up consistently. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be these big words either because oftentimes if they use big words, I get very suspicious. I don't know. This sounds like love bombing. And I've been, you know, I've fallen for that before, so I don't really do that again. But consistency. And you know, the other thing is, is people lose interest really easily. So someone who can still check in after, even if, even if we're just casually knowing each other, dating and I get it, or texting lots of guys. You're messaging, messaging lots of guys on the apps. That's totally fine with me. But people who, like, continually, like, by the way, you're still in my mind, I'm still thinking about you. I haven't, I haven't let you go yet. Like, you're still like, I might be one ball of many that he's juggling, but the fact that he will check in and remind me that he's thinking about me, that is a step in the right direction. Actually, one more thing. I'm going to make a little rant about guys in Toronto or any big city. I think this might be a big city thing, but my experience is Toronto. Let us know in the comments. But I spent two months in Europe, as you guys remember, and I was there, I was dating, I was meeting guys. It was very easy to meet people there. And I did a whole post about it. I came back to Toronto within, like a week. I was so irritated that I made a whole post about, on my Instagram about why it's easier to meet to date in Italy. And the thing was, one of, one of the things was in Toronto, everyone is busy. They all want, like this relationships and intimacy and that. It's like, okay, great, this has been nice. Like, we chat for a little bit. Like, let's, let's move it along. And then it's like, okay, yeah, I'm free in three weeks. I'm like, okay, well, no, I could be dead in three weeks. Like, I'm not waiting three weeks.
• 39:53
  Speaker A: Next.
• 39:54
  Speaker B: Like, I'm not your guy. Or like, make plans and then on the last minute cancel and then I'm, okay, fine, not a problem. Make plans on the same thing, last minute, cancel. And so that just. I can't. I can't deal with that. And let me tell you, it's not about, like, oh, I have a busy life. Because, girl, I have a busy life. We all have busy lives. It's not about that. It's. It's really about. It just needs to be something simple, like, let's go for a walk. Even if it's just for half an hour, let's just go for a walk. It doesn't have to be this big, grand thing. And I find that people sometimes hide behind their busyness as a, as an intimacy. Avoidance is what I'm picking up on. It's like, you say you want the thing, and then when the thing is there, hi, we've chatted. You like me, you say, I offer to hang out with you, and it's like, okay, yeah, I'm not going to prioritize this for three weeks. Like, come on. Like, that's.
• 40:41
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 40:42
  Speaker C: Yeah. My assumption in those cases is that, like, they're either not interested, like, not actually interested, or like you said, they're fearful and they haven't dealt with it yet.
• 40:54
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. But if they're not interested, don't chat with me and don't say, yeah, I'm interested. Like, just say, no, I'm not interested, or don't match with me. Yeah.
• 41:02
  Speaker A: Some people just want to eat a window shop or they just want to kind of, you know, like collect guys on the apps as a way to kind of make themselves feel more important or worthy. But when it, when, you know, like, that comes down to it, they're not wanting to actually be in a relationship because they maybe haven't refined the skills to know how to be in a relationship. Right. Which is the inspiration behind this podcast, behind what we're doing. We're trying to help gay men develop greater capacity so we don't have to be ghosting or slow fading each other constantly. It's exhausting and it just creates so much frustration, everything you just said. Yeah, I feel you. It's, It's. It's very frustrating.
• 41:40
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 41:40
  Speaker C: On my end, I think, yeah, someone, if someone wanted to sweep me off my feet, I mean, call me or message me and tell me we're going on an adventure, you know? And like, that could be anything. That could be anything. Like, we could go for a hike, we could go for a picnic. We could go for dinner. We could make dinner together. But I really, really value quality time, and I'm really, really into just like, doing things together, you know? So I think. I think, like, if we're talking sweeping me off my feet, it's like, that's definitely a big one for sure. And it's very much on the theme of, you know, excitement, mystery, and remoteness from everyday life as. As romance is defined. So, yeah, I would say that that's definitely one way. And beyond that, like, I can be really simple. I think if somebody. How do I say this? You know, like, one sound easy. But also it's like. I think it's just intentionality. Intentionality, prioritization, thoughtfulness, intention and. And even, like, creativity and sincerity. I think that put into any sort of gesture is a great way to, you know, quote, unquote, sweep me off my feet. I would say. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 43:11
  Speaker A: Can you think of a time that you were swept off your feet?
• 43:14
  Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. This is a. Yeah, this is a. My, you know, my ex was really, really good at this. He was really, really good at this. And I think we both kind of set the tone early on, and it was kind of like we weren't competing, but we had this really fun way, I think of, like, you know, continually kind of raising the bar. And I want to say our day trips, you know, like, we were just, like. I can remember us renting a vehicle together. Like, we went. He rented a vehicle, and we drove the sea, the sky, highway, and just, like, spent the day together. And honestly, it's so funny because even to this day, like. And again, just friends. But, like, you know, he'll come and visit and we'll just drive, like. And it's. It's crazy to say, but, like, it's so simple. But I love it. You know, we'll drive and we'll, like, pull over on the side of the road if we see, like, a beautiful view. And we'll get out and go, like, walk it and hang out, by the way. And it's funny because I feel like we're almost like these two big kids who are just, like, in an adventure together. And there's something light and free and again, like, remote from everyday life, I guess, that. That I really appreciate about that. So I would say that's definitely up there, those little side quests we would have together. God, even just talking about it gets me so, like, giddy. Yeah. Like, find me somebody who's into side quests. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
• 44:54
  Speaker A: Road trips. Holding hands while you're driving.
• 44:56
  Speaker C: That right there.
• 44:58
  Speaker B: Singing in the car. Even if it's terrible.
• 45:01
  Speaker C: I love it.
• 45:03
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 45:04
  Speaker C: Yeah. What about you?
• 45:05
  Speaker A: Yeah. You Guys gave me a lot of ideas because I didn't have as many down here. I was trying to think, but taking initiative, Michael. I was thinking about that when you were talking, and it's interesting, Michael, you. You give out what you want back, because all the things that you had said that you want, right. Are the things that you give to people, right? So I think a lot of us do that, right? And so, yeah, if we want to know what our partner wants, look at what they're offering, right? That's a powerful mirror. So, yeah, taking initiative is a big one. I think that's the biggest one. But again, my work is to learn how to give up control. But I. I need a man to be safe enough for me to give up control, right? Like, they have to be trustworthy in order for me to want to give up control. And that's my. That's my stuff. But I also know that I. I have attracted unsafe guys quite a bit, So I want to finally attract a safe guy. That makes me feel like, okay, yeah, I can give up my control. Control and trust him, and he can take initiative and go into his masculine. Yeah. And then prioritizing me. That's such a big one. Like, I. Even in early dating, I'm like, if you. If you. If you catch me and you reel me in, like, why are you looking elsewhere? You know what I mean? Like, you. You've already got a 10. Why you keep looking? Like, that's how I view it. And so I would want to be prioritized. 100. I think that's really important. And I do the same thing. If I. If I meet a guy and I'm like, this. I dig this guy. Like, everyone else becomes, like, invisible. Like, I delete the apps. I want to focus on this one person because they've already captivated me, right? And then touch. Yeah, touch my bum. I like bum massages. That's, like, the best way to, like, sweep me off my feet. Just give me a butt massage. And then one of my. My love languages that I'm actually learning is quite strong for me is words of affirmation. But I like to put an asterisk beside it, and I say words followed by actions. That's kind of the love language. So not just sweet nothings followed up by literally nothing. I want, like, you know, like, yeah, write me little love letters and those sorts of things. Like, I love when a guy's good with his words and he can communicate his feelings and means. It's. It's altruistic, I think that. That's important. Yeah. And then I love being told, like, that I'm sexy and, like, why? Because I think feeling sexy and feeling desirable is, like, one of the best things in the world, right? Like, who doesn't want to feel desirable and sexy? So, yeah, those are mine.
• 47:27
  Speaker B: You know, it's interesting when you're talking about the one about, like, If I'm a 10, you know, if I'm. If you already got a 10 way to keep looking. I used to feel the exact same way, and I've only recently, in the last couple years, shifted on that again. I think it's just the nature of the city that I date. In Toronto, people don't often say that, or maybe it's just me, I'm not sure, but I changed my mind to, like, yeah, go, keep dating. Like, go. Like, go. Let's see if you can. You can find better. By all means, go. And it kind of makes me feel, I don't know, more empowered in a way. It's like, you know, like, I know what I bring to the table, and it's like, if this isn't for you, then that's fine. I'm not your. I'm not your guy. But I used to feel very much the same way. And I would get a little bit insecure sometimes if I knew, you know, let's say, like I said, guys juggle, and knew that he was going on, you know, it's Michael Day on Friday, but then he's going out on another day with another guy on Saturday. That would have me feeling very insecure before. And I still agree with that. And I think eventually, of course, you come to the point where you decide we do that. But now it's kind of like, I see it as a challenge. I'm like, okay, you want to keep dating? Let's go see what you can find.
• 48:36
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And there's. When you're in a city like Toronto, well, I think any city that's above a million, probably. There's so many options, right? Like, there's like. And especially cities like Toronto or LA, NY, there's so many options. So that's what I mean. Like, if you. And I kind of like to view my love fantasy as, like, soulmate energy. If I meet the guy and he's. He's a person for me, like, he's not going to keep looking. He's going to know that he's got this amazing, energetic connection with me. So, yeah, I think it's.
• 49:03
  Speaker B: And I say he can't keep looking Good luck. Because if it is a soulmate energy, then you're not going to find. And I'm just going to. I consider eating my popcorn and watching you keep looking, having a great time, being entertained by you, and then one day I'll say, remember that time you kept dating other people and you already had me?
• 49:17
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 49:18
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 49:18
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 49:18
  Speaker A: Interesting.
• 49:19
  Speaker C: I think getting to know myself, like, it's so. I. I love the season of my life I'm in, and I think the season of my life that I'm entering, because getting to know myself, or my soul, if you will, has, like, I don't know, created more clarity around that. Like, there are a lot of people I thought I was, like, really into at one point, but I think the more time I've spent with myself and the more I've gotten to know myself, the more I'm like, oh, okay. Like, I thought it was that, but I'm closer to myself now, and it's more clear. So, yeah, I don't know. There's. There's a gratitude that I maybe didn't end up jumping the gun, if you will. Yeah.
• 49:59
  Speaker A: Yeah. Hindsight's all right. Well, this was a stimulating conversation.
• 50:04
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 50:05
  Speaker A: Anything you guys want to add before we wrap?
• 50:07
  Speaker B: No, just. Yeah. What I said at the beginning, I don't think. I don't think romance is dead. I think we just need to learn the skills to allow it.
• 50:14
  Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. Don't be afraid to show people that you care and that you want to make them feel pleasure and special. Like, I think that's the apprehension. It's like, well, what if I show them and then they don't reciprocate it? So we kind of hold back, and I think it's, again, fear, but fear of rejection. A lot of gay men carry a fear of rejection. It's like, it's okay to. To take the, you know, the risk to put yourself out there to be romantic with somebody.
• 50:38
  Speaker C: And I think, like, I'm just gonna invite this into the space. Like, may we be a bit kinder to each other as we navigate all of this, because there is a vulnerability in caring and being romantic. And, you know, and I think when we're constantly having doors slammed in our face or the rejection is without kindness and gentleness, then, you know, it makes it like. Like, it's like, well, why do I even bother? Why would I even want to bother? You know? So I think let's just all be a bit more kind to each other in. In this space of dating, relating, and connecting as human yeah. Yeah.
• 51:18
  Speaker A: Well, thanks, guys. Yeah. For sharing all vulnerably and letting us into your world. And to the listener, viewer, thanks for chiming in. Actually chime in on YouTube and we want to hear how this is episode impacted you.
• 51:30
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 51:31
  Speaker A: How do you want to be swept off of your feet? Let us into your world in the comments section and yeah, come and join us in our connection circles and unpack some of this stuff. We'd love to see you over there. You can for everything, GMB, you can go to our website, gaimansbrotherhood.com all right, much love, everyone.