Latest / The Other 22 Hours / James Victore on radical integrity, questioning authority, and getting paid $20,000 to shut up.

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James Victore on radical integrity, questioning authority, and getting paid $20,000 to shut up. · The Other 22 Hours

0:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And I realized there is no safety.
0:02
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what the safety is?
0:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Me, mother of me, I have to rely on me.
0:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to create for me.
0:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And I have to rely on me.
0:14
[SPEAKER_01]: We often define artists by their output.
0:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Their records, books, movies, and the times they're on stage.
0:21
[SPEAKER_03]: But the art is made in the quiet, the struggle, and the mundane, the hours that no one sees.
0:27
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm McKayla Ann.
0:28
[SPEAKER_01]: and I'm Aaron Kramer-Hase.
0:30
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the other 22 hours.
0:31
[SPEAKER_01]: The exploration of the creative life lived in between.
0:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Today, we're featuring our conversation with artist, author, speaker, and creative coach James Victoria.
0:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Over his career, his design clients have included Esquire Magazine, The New York Times, Time Magazine.
1:00
[SPEAKER_01]: He has had exhibitions at Malma and New York and his designs are part of the permanent collection at the Louvre.
1:06
[SPEAKER_03]: This conversation is a deep dive into what it is to truly step into your own creativity and beautiful wisdom about how easy and how hard it can be to truly let our light shine.
1:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Here is our conversation with James Victoria.
1:24
[SPEAKER_03]: We like to start with a, how are you?
1:27
[SPEAKER_03]: How are you today and where are you physically and creatively?
1:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Today, I am fairly awesome.
1:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Yesterday, I was not.
1:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
1:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Life.
1:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So you call me on a good day.
1:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Perspective is everything.
1:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's just how you see it.
1:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Physically, I am in a small town outside of Austin, Texas.
1:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been here for the last 10 years, originally I am a New Yorker, tried and fucking true, and I'm still a New Yorker, I'm not a Texan, I never will be a Texan, but my last 12 years of New York, why was in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, and I loved that, but I've lived everywhere, I've lived there for 35 years of my life, and in New York State another 10, so it all adds up I hope, but I'm good, thank you, and it's pleasure to be here, Aaron, and Michaela, thank you.
2:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
2:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for joining us.
2:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I like that that you live in Texas, but you're not a Texan.
2:16
[SPEAKER_01]: We feel that about Tennessee.
2:18
[SPEAKER_01]: We've been here for just over 10 years after a long stint in New York and we still feel like New Yorkers.
2:23
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I still take pride in, you know, knowing the subway map in my head without having to look at the wall.
2:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
2:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I was back recently and I was like, well, the fuck right now this.
2:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, buildings have changed a lot, but you know, got it down.
2:36
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we have two children.
2:37
[SPEAKER_03]: We have a four and a half year old in a one year old.
2:40
[SPEAKER_03]: And our four year old is became obsessed with the Statue of Liberty.
2:43
[SPEAKER_03]: So this summer we were like, let's go.
2:46
[SPEAKER_03]: And also we stayed a few nights in Williamsburg.
2:49
[SPEAKER_03]: And the baby was at that time, like six months.
2:52
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was like,
2:52
[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, we could do this.
2:54
[SPEAKER_03]: We could move back.
2:55
[SPEAKER_03]: No, no, no.
2:57
[SPEAKER_01]: It was one of those VR days.
2:58
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like 110.
2:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And so the trains were just so hot.
3:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
3:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And we were going up.
3:04
[SPEAKER_01]: You got to take your kid to the natural history museum.
3:06
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're on the one train.
3:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sitting with a diaper bag and another bag carrying a strollers tripping sweat and everybody on the train's looking at me.
3:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, on that guy.
3:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm in this guy a thousand times.
3:16
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm him now.
3:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Now you're super dad.
3:18
[SPEAKER_00]: That's all.
3:20
[SPEAKER_00]: So my daughter is about my daughter is eight and my son is 10.
3:24
[SPEAKER_00]: He was born.
3:25
[SPEAKER_00]: He was born in our bathroom in Williamsburg.
3:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my God.
3:28
[SPEAKER_00]: They're both home births.
3:29
[SPEAKER_00]: But he was in New York and Nova was in Texas here.
3:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's funny because she is fixated on
3:37
[SPEAKER_03]: Interesting.
3:38
[SPEAKER_00]: So before bed we have options of like let's playbago.
3:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's read let's do the and they sometimes want to play charades and so we play charades and she just she will immediately go okay I'll go first I'll go first and she just goes
3:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And we go, um, natural liberty.
3:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
3:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Amazing.
3:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Our daughter is convinced that Statue of Liberty is holding a golden ice cream cone.
4:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
4:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Which I love to the point that the other day, she's like, Dad, did you know that the Statue of Liberty's ice cream cone is called a torch?
4:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Go.
4:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Go and ice cream shop asking for that one.
4:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Run with it.
4:16
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so for our audience, like we've done our, you know, deep dive of your what the internet tells us about your life, but we're sharing from the real life kind of your path and from what I gathered you started out as you making these political posters and what you're kind of path as a creative as a painter and then progressing into author speaker and creative coach with that kind of in a nutshell has been like tell us your whole life story in five minutes.
4:46
[SPEAKER_00]: clock is ticking baby.
4:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I traditionally started out as a commercial graphic designer.
4:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I am extremely lucky in that I was born to do this job.
4:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that I can track it one fucking hundred percent all the way through and I can track all the times my wrist has been slapped to like say don't do that don't do that don't do that and I for some reason always just was able to stick to my guns and follow through with it.
5:13
[SPEAKER_00]: all the failures, all the firings, all the everything.
5:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I moved to New York and I was 19 from upstate New York.
5:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought it was in the military, so I was brought up in the military.
5:23
[SPEAKER_00]: In the military, I learned two important things.
5:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I learned good posture and I learned two question authority.
5:31
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what you do when you're a brat.
5:32
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm also a military brat.
5:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Ah, which one, which branch?
5:35
[SPEAKER_03]: Navy.
5:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, okay.
5:37
[SPEAKER_00]: My dad was the Air Force, he flew over Vietnam.
5:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Moved to New York when I was 19, and I knew what I wanted to do.
5:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I knew I wanted to be a graphic designer, so I went to the school of visual arts.
5:45
[SPEAKER_00]: After about two years, I was very bored as a student.
5:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I had to have a full-time job to pay my way and pay my rent.
5:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I was making, you know, for me at the time, like a good money,
5:57
[SPEAKER_00]: at a ski shop, actually, so it was Gaze on the 57th street, and I was bored as a student, like there was no fire.
6:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was taking a side and asked to leave.
6:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And I had actually, I'd actually failed out of another university before I went to New York.
6:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a very odd relationship with education and love learning, and I instill it in my kids, but I fucking hate schools.
6:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't believe in them.
6:17
[SPEAKER_00]: So I left school and immediately I literally started working three days later.
6:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I had never stopped.
6:23
[SPEAKER_00]: But when I went to New York, I also knew I wanted to be a poster designer.
6:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to be one of the best poster designers on the planet.
6:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And I woke up one day and I was about my first motorcycle cash.
6:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I was wearing silk suits.
6:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I was making good money.
6:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I had low overhead, but I was a book jacket designer.
6:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I was designing a lot of book jackets.
6:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, oh, wait, didn't you want to be a poster designer?
6:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So I kind of started using my own money to start making political, social, and cultural images.
6:52
[SPEAKER_00]: somewhat professionally shot myself in the foot because of that.
6:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Even to this day, I know I get offers from large corporate events.
7:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I get the offer from the art director of like Lego or Converse or something.
7:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And I say, well, she thought, yes, let's talk about this.
7:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about this.
7:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I never hear from them again.
7:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And the reason is, is because when they send it through the
7:19
[SPEAKER_00]: He talks about the bad things.
7:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I literally did a very well-paying corporate event where I traveled to the event and it was the night before and they wanted the speakers to go through their slides to make sure they worked.
7:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And it went through all of my slides and they said, can you wait after it was like, hey James can you hang out here the CFO and the C-O-O will want to talk to you?
7:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And I felt like I was in detention.
7:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
7:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, an empty auditorium I'm waiting and I was going to be talking to like their entire their national conference.
7:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was people from all over the place who'd come to this come to Boston and they said, this isn't for us.
7:54
[SPEAKER_00]: That was like, no, no, no, no.
7:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I just did my own event called take this job and love it, turning people on to themselves, their creativity, their potential.
8:02
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, no, no, no, it's okay.
8:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And they freaking handed me a check for $20,000 and said, thank you very much, goodbye.
8:07
[SPEAKER_00]: So I got paid not to talk.
8:09
[SPEAKER_03]: How do you feel?
8:11
[SPEAKER_03]: What are your feelings about that about the consequences of using your art to communicate social, political, commentary opinions?
8:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I would feel the same as, you know, you'd I speak with musicians.
8:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I would the same as any musician out there who has something to say and is afraid that venues won't hire them or that records won't sign them or people won't like their opinion or whatever.
8:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I work as a commercial designer, but I have the spirit of myself, but I am driven more by the artistic quality of my work.
8:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm driven by the communication that I can create.
8:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm driven by the excitement that I can create just visually.
8:56
[SPEAKER_00]: The questions I can ask, and I was raised on a military base, and I loved my country, but I think it was important for me the time to ask it difficult questions.
9:06
[SPEAKER_00]: and now more so than ever and I think there's a risk involved and I wish that more designers would take that risk.
9:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I wish that more designers would understand that.
9:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I would rather fucking die with my reputation than with a couple dollars more in the bank.
9:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And integrity.
9:21
[SPEAKER_01]: That's over the.
9:22
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a beautiful word.
9:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Aaron.
9:23
[SPEAKER_01]: One aspect that I do in my writing and production work is writing songs and producing songs that will be pitched for placement in TV shows.
9:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm writing to briefs from music supervisors and all that.
9:35
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a very specific framework to create in.
9:39
[SPEAKER_01]: In my understanding, I relate that to a graphic design brief you might receive from a client.
9:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I can imagine that you got to a spot with a reputation and a style where people hire you for what you do, or what you can bring.
9:52
[SPEAKER_01]: But when you're just starting out, when you had that revelation of like, oh, wait, I wanted to be a poster designer, not a book jacket designer.
9:58
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you find yourself in that worth that you're doing?
10:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And the confidence to do that.
10:02
[SPEAKER_00]: It was literally sitting at a bar with a sketchbook.
10:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if I was working on a job or not.
10:08
[SPEAKER_00]: This is way back when I was single and just designing book jackets and living in sunset park, Brooklyn, crazy part of Brooklyn.
10:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And I literally was designing something and I was like, hey, wait a minute.
10:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I was doing what I think the majority of graphic designers do.
10:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I was making the obvious more obvious, sir.
10:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I would literally go to the bookstore and go, oh, I'm supposed to be working on a book about how to sell use cars or I go do that section and go, oh, okay, that's what they look like, okay?
10:32
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and I was mimicking and making them look like what they were supposed to look like.
10:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And I said, wait a minute, I have my own sense of humor.
10:38
[SPEAKER_00]: I have my own macabre, my own sexuality.
10:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I have my own way of seeing things, my own sense of typography and color and design and shape and form and content.
10:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And I wasn't using it.
10:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And I started to put it into my work, and even then, my work dropped off.
10:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Publishers didn't want it, and I was working for all of the New York publishers at the time.
10:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And they didn't want to work with me.
10:59
[SPEAKER_00]: It wanted to see what they expected, and I wasn't interested in that anymore.
11:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I had to accept that risk.
11:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I think maybe by this time in my career, the state university that was in my hometown had made major shifts, and my mother didn't have a job anymore, as you were for the state, right, this a lifetime job, my dad works in the military, lifetime job, they close the base, and I realize there is no safety.
11:22
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no fucking safety.
11:23
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what the safety is?
11:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Me, motherfucker.
11:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Me.
11:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Me.
11:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to rely on me.
11:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to create for me.
11:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And I have to rely on that.
11:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm constantly pivoting and moving around.
11:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Not hustling, but I'm like, okay, COVID was a great example.
11:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, I was traveling the world, speaking, getting paid to speak all over the place, or inviting people to come to the place that I lived in at the time because I had a lot of room to come to my events.
11:48
[SPEAKER_00]: and then COVID shut that all down.
11:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I had to go stop and go, okay, what do I do?
11:51
[SPEAKER_00]: What do I like to do?
11:53
[SPEAKER_00]: How can I get paid for it?
11:54
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's constantly one of those.
11:56
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, one of the things I do even today with clients, especially when it comes to briefs is I ignore the brief.
12:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not interested in the brief.
12:04
[SPEAKER_00]: But here's the thing, Aaron.
12:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Early on, here would be my advice to some 18-year-olds from 20-year-old designer or creative of any kind whatsoever.
12:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Start now.
12:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Sharpen your elbows, set your picks,
12:18
[SPEAKER_00]: what you'll be doing from this point on is creating a reputation as that person.
12:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So right now, I've gotten large jobs before from, you know, big corporations and these these places that we all know about, they'll say, hey,
12:33
[SPEAKER_00]: We got a job for you, blah, blah, blah.
12:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And they'll give me all their usages.
12:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And we get paid for usages.
12:38
[SPEAKER_00]: I can sit down, I can make something beautiful in five minutes.
12:41
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't matter how long it takes, right?
12:43
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the how many times they use it, how many planets, and how many, you know, that's right.
12:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Into perpetuity.
12:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And their budget was small.
12:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And then they also said, and we need this number of revisions, and this number of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
13:10
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, creativity is the answer to everything, right?
13:13
[SPEAKER_00]: You can find a creative way to ask for more money.
13:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And I said, and I don't do revisions.
13:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I will make something beautiful and you'll like it.
13:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you don't, then we can talk.
13:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And they've got back to me and they double the budget.
13:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And they said, oh, that's right.
13:26
[SPEAKER_00]: We forgot how you work.
13:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So now it's it's literally what they as they say, you know, in the movies, my reputation preceded me because I don't do not want to be that guy that I want those lesions.
13:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Not interested.
13:39
[SPEAKER_00]: It is not because I'm a I haven't ego and it's not because I'm a diva.
13:43
[SPEAKER_00]: It's because I work for trust.
13:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't work for money.
13:46
[SPEAKER_00]: If you trust me, I will make great work for you.
13:48
[SPEAKER_00]: If you don't trust me, it doesn't matter how much money you pay me.
13:51
[SPEAKER_01]: You're gonna get my left hand and not my heart.
13:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Staking your claims taking your integrity and sticking to it, you know, it kind of goes along the lines of I've heard it Tributed do a thousand different people, but it's like if you don't tell a lie You don't have to remember what you said.
14:08
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, you can just show up with who you are and what you do There's all this mental baggage that you don't have to carry of like oh, well, what position was I taking here and what position was I taking here?
14:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Here I am.
14:20
[SPEAKER_00]: There's this wonderful story.
14:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you guys know Kinky Friedman.
14:23
[SPEAKER_00]: He's a Texas version.
14:25
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
14:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
14:25
[SPEAKER_00]: He told the story about when he was cutting his way up.
14:28
[SPEAKER_00]: He was going to go on tour and be an opener for Led Zeppelin.
14:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And Bob Dylan came up to him and said, Hey, I've been hearing, yeah, I want you to come on tour with me and Joan Baez and Kinky was like, but they're the greatest rock who will hope in the planet.
14:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And Bob Dylan said, yeah, but I've got something to say.
14:47
[SPEAKER_00]: and kinky pack bags and went with Dylan.
14:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
14:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
14:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I would rather have that.
14:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I would rather have my voice than be told what to do.
14:57
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's what I think about this a lot because we moved to Nashville for a number of reasons mostly like cost of living and you know wanting to be able to have a certain level of comfort and a family and as touring musicians.
15:11
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm a songwriter and I've always been grappling with like realizing that I don't want to do the things that you have to do to like get mainstream success.
15:22
[SPEAKER_03]: And I don't even like when I've dipped my toe into like writing and the kind of music row world for other people like there's something in my soul that like I just can't do it like I can.
15:33
[SPEAKER_03]: I can only write and I grapple with this of thinking about I also do songwriting creative coaching and I'm like I love that work which I'm excited to talk to you about because I'm currently in a master's program to get my master's in depth psychology of creativity.
15:48
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm really interested in what it does to us.
15:53
[SPEAKER_03]: Our minds, our hearts, our souls.
15:55
[SPEAKER_03]: When we really are truly in our
15:59
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm curious for you, like, when we are creatives, when we have these different paths that we can choose of, like, yeah, just do the work and cater to the business, to capitalism, to the corporations, just use your skills in that way.
16:14
[SPEAKER_03]: Or when you're somebody who makes the decision, like, no, I want to prioritize my spirit and my creativity.
16:21
[SPEAKER_03]: What do you see are the benefits of that as a person when you choose that route?
16:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I work with a number of high-end creatives who are frustrated.
16:31
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, creative directors from Disney and creative directors from Nike and creative directors from, you know, from all around.
16:36
[SPEAKER_00]: They all tell the same story.
16:37
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, I was a creative kid.
16:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I went to a creative school.
16:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I got a creative job.
16:43
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I've got the house and the wife and the dog and the husband and the, you know, the second house and the bubble.
16:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Why do I drive home crying?
16:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like,
16:51
[SPEAKER_00]: You're frustrated.
16:52
[SPEAKER_00]: You're frustrated.
16:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Your soul knows it.
16:55
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not doing the work that you're supposed to do.
16:56
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not doing what you're capable of.
16:58
[SPEAKER_00]: This is what I've been rolling out recently and I keep on, I'm a fan of both these authors and I keep mixing quotes with the, and I think it's Andrew David Thoreau.
17:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I believe.
17:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And he says, most men lead lives of quiet desperation.
17:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And the reason for that is that they know what they're capable of, but they took a job.
17:17
[SPEAKER_00]: It took a job instead and like for these people who like come to me and they're like I'm stuck I've got a family.
17:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I've got a I've got more good.
17:26
[SPEAKER_00]: You have got you know I can't say okay you're fucked by right, but I can get them to turn the volume down on the day-to-day In the junk and turn the volume up on themselves for all of them whether they feel stuck and they've got the golden handcuffs or whatever I'm like you need to tell yourself
17:45
[SPEAKER_00]: and your children and your family and the universe that your creativity is important.
17:54
[SPEAKER_00]: It will provide.
17:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And for most of these people, I can show them.
17:57
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, I just do this thing on the side.
17:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
18:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, oh, look, watch.
18:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And then what I can build for them, I can show them the path and say, you're making money now.
18:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I get it.
18:07
[SPEAKER_00]: You can make money doing this.
18:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Give him a fucking money, tell him jokes, give him a money, doodling, one of the highest paid living artists his name is Mr. Doodle.
18:17
[SPEAKER_00]: He does these crappy keep-haring rip-offs in black and white on everything and people buy the shit out of it.
18:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a trick.
18:26
[SPEAKER_00]: But who am I?
18:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a bad judge.
18:29
[SPEAKER_00]: So, if you can make money doing everything, anything you need to use the tools that we use to get, to make anything move the tools of scheduling an organization, discipline, the tools of practice.
18:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is the best one.
18:43
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the best one I love talking about this.
18:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I said, I've got to eight-year-old and a ten-year-old.
18:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a single dad.
18:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And they are barnacles.
18:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
18:52
[SPEAKER_00]: They love me and I love that.
18:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I was afraid of my dad and they love me and I love it But and I'm trying to be really good with them and not shut them down because I know how my creativity was shut down And I see it in adult lives.
19:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I see it in the shopping center kids in their moms how their creativity is shut Just put that down
19:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't stop, stop.
19:11
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I was like?
19:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, fucking leave me alone.
19:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Was he gonna break a box of cereal, leave me alone?
19:16
[SPEAKER_00]: My children, again and again, teach me the tool, the innate tool of creativity and what we all need in powerful measure.
19:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And it goes like this.
19:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And I got two of them, so I've got like, it comes at me stereo at the same time, like guys.
19:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, let me see.
19:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Whoa, let me finish the dishes then.
19:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's take a look, right?
19:38
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to pay attention to you.
19:39
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I have to tell them.
19:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to pay attention to you, give me a moment.
19:41
[SPEAKER_00]: But it goes like this.
19:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, daddy, look at me.
19:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Look what I can do.
19:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And we lose that ability when we become adults.
19:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's just marketing.
19:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Marketing is having something to say and saying it again and again.
19:55
[SPEAKER_00]: It boils my balls when I'm in the H.E.B.
19:57
[SPEAKER_00]: That's our big shopping center here.
19:59
[SPEAKER_00]: As the H.E.B.
19:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And there were some kid who was like,
20:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Mommy, Mommy, Mommy, Mommy, Mommy, Mommy.
20:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just wanna go look at the mom and say, fuck and listen to your kid.
20:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Why aren't you paying attention?
20:08
[SPEAKER_00]: You have something to say, listen.
20:10
[SPEAKER_00]: In the kid they're creating this like, unmet craving, right?
20:14
[SPEAKER_00]: We need that.
20:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I need that.
20:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm starting a new workshop within the next, we gonna have and I've gotta talk about it again and again.
20:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And I hate to do that.
20:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like, oh my god, they don't need to hear about me again, or need to hear from me again.
20:27
[SPEAKER_00]: But I know that people need to see something at minimum of seven times before they buy, which I think is nuts, and now it's probably more.
20:37
[SPEAKER_00]: That's so hard to remember.
20:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think the one number is more now because of all of the attention economy.
20:42
[SPEAKER_00]: When I get tired of these things, I have to know that's when people are starting to pay attention.
20:46
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so hard to know that.
20:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just, again, trust, it's a trust.
20:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, just a quick pause from this conversation.
20:54
[SPEAKER_01]: The other 22 hours is an independent production built entirely on the idea that he's quiet on his conversation's matter.
21:00
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21:03
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21:06
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21:12
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21:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for being here.
21:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's get back to our conversation.
21:20
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's interesting.
21:21
[SPEAKER_03]: I have so with my songwriting coaching, I teach all ages.
21:25
[SPEAKER_03]: I think my youngest student is like 12 and my oldest student is in their 60s.
21:30
[SPEAKER_03]: So all works of life.
21:32
[SPEAKER_03]: And one of my 12 year olds today, I was in a session and she was asking like, is YouTube the best place to start sharing songs or TikTok?
21:41
[SPEAKER_03]: And we were talking about that.
21:42
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, where do your parents stand on this?
21:44
[SPEAKER_03]: Because you're,
21:45
[SPEAKER_03]: under age so I want your parents involvement and she was like well there they're supportive but they're worried about me getting caught up in comments and I was like you know as we're talking about this I would ask you like why you're itching to share it online right now and what the goal is in sharing.
22:01
[SPEAKER_03]: And can we delay that goal because she talked about how, like, how she cares what people think and she's so scared to share her songs because she's afraid she won't like her songs if somebody else doesn't like it.
22:13
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, so two things, if you share your work with the world, I guarantee you there's going to be somebody who puts it down.
22:19
[SPEAKER_03]: and the goal isn't to not be hurt by that.
22:23
[SPEAKER_03]: It's to have the strength them resolve and the love for what you do that it doesn't change how you then create or work.
22:31
[SPEAKER_03]: Because you're an artist, so of course you're sensitive and emotional.
22:35
[SPEAKER_03]: It still hurts me when somebody doesn't like my song or doesn't pay attention to my song, and I've put out six records, whatever.
22:42
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, and the other thing is, I was like, you are an incubation time.
22:46
[SPEAKER_03]: and I was like the more that we focus on your love for writing and creating and knowing who you are when you do finally start sharing, you're gonna be that much more resolve in your work and in your passion for working.
23:01
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, so maybe I was like, I feel protective of like, let's not go out in the world yet.
23:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
23:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no people because people can be brutal.
23:10
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it's horrible.
23:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like that voice also exists in adults as well.
23:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, obviously the incubation period is shorter when you're an adult and you also have a mortgage and bills that are due on whatever this thing is that you're incubating, but I think it's important to carve that space.
23:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, don't be intentional.
23:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think you have to have a healthy consciousness about the critics.
23:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Critics are never right.
23:36
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not there to shepherd you.
23:38
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not there to help you build.
23:39
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not there to help They're there because they do less than you.
23:42
[SPEAKER_00]: They're there because they are lacking in their own lives And they just need to vent.
23:47
[SPEAKER_00]: They're there because they're bullies.
23:49
[SPEAKER_00]: They're there because you know I can't imagine being a woman online these days and just having someone comment about what you're wearing or your body or your skin or your like Oh my god shut the fuck up
24:01
[SPEAKER_00]: But guys, seriously, you know, it's funny.
24:03
[SPEAKER_00]: There's this idea that I really like it.
24:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I call it this little light of mine from the song You know, this little light of mine.
24:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm one little shine.
24:10
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't let it shine And there's two reasons.
24:13
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't let it shine because it's too easy.
24:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Meaning I have this gift people love my writing I'm like look at it and go.
24:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I love my fucking hidden writing again.
24:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh You know, although sometimes I would do a to-do list or grocery list and I'm like that's fucking beautiful
24:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I was pretty good.
24:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I just blow that up and sell it.
24:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Avocado's crossed out.
24:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Something about that.
24:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
24:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Our gift comes too easy to us.
24:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So we doubt it.
24:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it's too easy.
24:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And the other part is because it's hard.
24:46
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't let her like shine because it's hard.
24:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Because there's somebody may not like it.
24:51
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and I tell people they're like, what if someone doesn't like it?
24:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, oh, they're not going to like it.
24:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Somebody's not going to like it.
24:57
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not for everybody.
24:58
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't be.
24:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I learned that years ago.
25:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I tell people, I'm not for everybody.
25:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that not everybody likes James Victoria.
25:06
[SPEAKER_00]: That's fine.
25:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not for everybody.
25:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just for the sexy people.
25:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to tell myself that I have to be cool with that.
25:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, obviously, I ain't your taste.
25:17
[SPEAKER_00]: That's okay.
25:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Not everybody likes sake, not everybody likes cigars, not everybody likes rare meat, I don't know.
25:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Not everybody likes oatmeal.
25:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, something that really relined my thinking on that is as artists and creatives as people that put our artwork and our heart and soul into the world, for public consumption.
25:37
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we're all looking find your audience, find your audience, find your audience.
25:41
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a big part of me that sees it as equally important to find who's not your audience.
25:46
[SPEAKER_01]: That tells me the same amount.
25:47
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, if I can finally just shut that door, it's like, well, I know as much as a door opening.
25:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Super.
25:53
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like looking for failure.
25:56
[SPEAKER_01]: If you go out and try to fail, it's actually like pretty hard to fall on just 100% yard sale fail across the board.
26:03
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and I learn more what I do fail.
26:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I learned more when I get red lights that I get when I get white.
26:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you learn more from failure, definitely.
26:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, the thing about finding your audience is I have to remind people and say, hey, listen, be cool.
26:16
[SPEAKER_00]: You have an audience.
26:17
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't know it yet because you haven't said hello.
26:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And you don't know it yet because you haven't made those steps.
26:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And you have to be cool with the, you know, the, the first line of both the haters and the audience is going to be your friends.
26:30
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, your parents are going to come out and say, really, really, you know, I had my, I had my, when I had my first show at the Museum of Modern Art in New York, I brought my parents to New York.
26:38
[SPEAKER_00]: They were at the show.
26:39
[SPEAKER_00]: We went to dinner after and I made the ultimate mistake of asking them what they thought.
26:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't you do anything nice?
26:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, and they're like, oh, no, I actually don't mom.
26:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
26:55
[SPEAKER_00]: This is it me while you're in Moma like Yeah, and if I did things to make that audience that critic happy, then nobody would ever hear from me.
27:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, be it frustrated poor.
27:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess I'd be creative, but not a good one.
27:10
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
27:11
[SPEAKER_03]: How did you get to the point where you started wanting to share creative coaching and speaking in addition to doing the creative work yourself?
27:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I love what I do.
27:22
[SPEAKER_00]: It's pretty easy for me.
27:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I don't have the client sitting on my back.
27:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think about that.
27:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think about the client at all.
27:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, I don't have that many clients.
27:31
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think about the audience, even when I did, I think about the audience beyond.
27:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I know what they want.
27:36
[SPEAKER_00]: They want to hear from a real human being.
27:38
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't have that weight on my shoulders.
27:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I have had an amhaving.
27:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, look, I'm here with you.
27:44
[SPEAKER_00]: A very nice career and a flexible life relatively.
27:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know that more creatives want that.
27:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I know they want to have some freedom in their life.
27:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I know they want to feel as though they are taping into their voice.
28:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that they want creative courage and some flexibility and the biggest thing I think is I know that they want a voice.
28:08
[SPEAKER_00]: They have a voice and they want to express it.
28:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you can't, that's a horrible feeling.
28:13
[SPEAKER_00]: you have to choke it down for a client.
28:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't imagine that.
28:17
[SPEAKER_01]: All of this, the human voice, the knowing your art and just hearing you talk, I'm really interested in hearing what you have to say on AI and how that relates to our creativity and how we can persevere.
28:30
[SPEAKER_01]: How we can crush it?
28:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.
28:32
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, because to me, it's like creativity is innately human.
28:36
[SPEAKER_01]: It is an essence of being human and being alive.
28:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I hate that they call it generative AI because it's not generating energy, it's a regurgative AI.
28:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, I'm just interested in your, what has your reaction into this rise of this, to the naysayers, to the doomsday folks, to everything?
28:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it a tool?
28:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it the future?
28:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it the death?
28:56
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you say?
28:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's the future, because it's being shoved down our fucking thrones.
29:00
[SPEAKER_00]: It is.
29:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:02
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't have a choice.
29:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Everything I do, I write an email and it says, do you want me to, like, know it with fucking, no.
29:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Get out of here.
29:07
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
29:09
[SPEAKER_00]: that word is misspelled on purpose.
29:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, that's beautiful.
29:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Leave me the forklown.
29:14
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's being shoved down our throats.
29:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And I heard this thing.
29:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a fan of conspiracy theories, but I heard this thing that was pretty fascinating that it's been invented and been shoved down our throats just so the people in charge can deny any truth and say, oh, that's obviously AI.
29:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, four of me and Javier
29:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, which is like scariest hell.
29:38
[SPEAKER_00]: I think those companies should be taxed out the Wazoo.
29:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I think they are land grabbers.
29:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I think they are destroying the environment.
29:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I think they are destroying our creativity.
29:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I fear for the creativity of my children because of it.
29:51
[SPEAKER_00]: they know my pitch.
29:53
[SPEAKER_00]: They know that I believe that they are smarter than it.
29:57
[SPEAKER_00]: They are more creative than it.
29:58
[SPEAKER_00]: It cannot do what they do by a freaking mile.
30:01
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think it's the future because of one because, like I said, it's being shoved down our throats and I love people.
30:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I kind of believe in people, people are lazy and they want it easy and they want it cheap and our comfort and our security
30:21
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the truth.
30:22
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to destroy us because we want things comfortable and easy and cheap.
30:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's happened already.
30:29
[SPEAKER_00]: The smart people I am following are saying, hey, get off those tools, stop using chatGp, stop using these things and people like, but wait, wait, I'm like, learn how to write.
30:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you can't then you don't belong in the pool.
30:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, creativity's hard.
30:43
[SPEAKER_00]: It's supposed to be.
30:45
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like that line in the league of their own when
30:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you crying?
30:52
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no crying face bump on me.
30:54
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, this is hard, and if it wasn't, then everybody would do it.
30:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
30:59
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, in the music business, I am lucky in that I don't, like I quit Spotify.
31:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm quitting all these apps that use it and stuff, but that's scariest hell that they're quote unquote bands or singers out there that are just made up and pumping out stuff because the average person, quite frankly, they don't care.
31:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
31:17
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no taste.
31:18
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no love of craft and music has become wallpaper in essence they have algorithms It just play the next song play the next song.
31:28
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't even have to be a playlist It just just shuffles the entire history of recorded music for you and like you said people like it You see people are lazy and as much as I love that being able to listen to any song ever Anywhere any time that I want that is incredible the pastivity of that kind of makes everything How much is a nice is everything
31:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I really just want to get back to a spot where people can sit and get lost in the music because there's nothing else to do but to sit and stare at the speakers.
31:55
[SPEAKER_03]: It also just really changes our relationship to music and to art having everything in my pocket makes me listen to nothing.
32:05
[SPEAKER_03]: first is when I had like five CDs and I would sit and listen to them over and over again and read the liner jacket and like look at the lyrics and I think about that all the time that I'm like I'm so overwhelmed by the options that I just don't put anything on and it takes a lot of work to live intentionally and to not choose the easy path and we have a big vinyl record collection and our daughter thankfully is super into it every morning and she says put on Willie Nelson
32:35
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, she loves William Nelson in George Strait.
32:38
[SPEAKER_03]: She's going to be if we tell her that we talked to somebody today who lives in Texas She's going to be like Can we out in Texas?
32:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, they'll tell her George Thread is great, but she's got less than the moral hanger.
32:49
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, she hasn't gotten there yet.
32:51
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah.
32:52
[SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, it's like that takes like conscious effort.
32:55
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think we're gonna continually find ourselves in a world where we have to just not go with the flow.
33:01
[SPEAKER_03]: We have to think, how do I wanna live?
33:03
[SPEAKER_03]: What are the macro and micro consequences of
33:07
[SPEAKER_03]: using chatGBT or using Amazon to deliver everything versus going to the store and even though it takes longer and all those things.
33:16
[SPEAKER_03]: It's hard to take the harder path but I think in terms of creativity with making songs and I would imagine like making physical art something happens inside of us when we are struggling with something and then break through.
33:30
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know how to identify what that is that happens in our body, our brain, but like that feeling when we're working on a song and it's like, oh, there's just so hard.
33:40
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, I don't know.
33:41
[SPEAKER_03]: And then all of a sudden, somebody thinks of a line.
33:43
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, yes!
33:44
[SPEAKER_03]: That's it.
33:45
[SPEAKER_03]: That is unlike any other feeling in life.
33:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
33:48
[SPEAKER_00]: That aha.
33:49
[SPEAKER_03]: Plugging it into a machine is not going to do that for us.
33:52
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
33:53
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
33:53
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
33:53
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
33:53
[SPEAKER_01]: The process and the struggle that is inherently whether it's subliminal or explicit in the art is what makes the art for me.
34:02
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's like time up museums, like seeing a painting in person and seeing the layers of brushstrokes on there.
34:09
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that you are looking at a physical representation of the time that it took to create this object that's right here, and you can feel it, you can see it, you can sense it, and that's what to me is like what gives part of the power to it.
34:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, um, Kayla, to your point, here's something a huge idea that people fail to recognize it or don't want to accept, or if I go to the grocery store, I know I could maybe find one person out of all those people, it is difficult to live consciously.
34:39
[SPEAKER_00]: We are in default mode.
34:41
[SPEAKER_00]: The alarm goes off.
34:42
[SPEAKER_00]: We drink our coffee, even the coffee thing.
34:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the t-shirt, say, oh, don't talk to me.
34:45
[SPEAKER_00]: It's all I've had in my coffee.
34:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, fuck off.
34:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Fuck the fuck off.
34:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Seriously, seriously, you live a cliche.
34:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's on your t-shirt, which is gross.
34:57
[SPEAKER_00]: But to be woke,
34:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know that word is, oh my god, he's woke, he's dangerous.
35:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Would you rather be woke or asleep?
35:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's the simple question.
35:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And most people will rather just, you know, I hate to put a fine edge or to make it so dramatic, but it's the freaking matrix.
35:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And life is hard, and parenting is hard.
35:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I occasionally, some joke will come up on my stupid ass feed and it'll be about like, something about parents and their kids or something, and I write to them and I'm like, parenting is hard.
35:29
[SPEAKER_00]: It's supposed to be.
35:30
[SPEAKER_00]: That's how we raise good people.
35:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sad that you're just making this flipping joke and same thing about relationships.
35:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So guys teasing their wives or teasing girl.
35:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh my god, really?
35:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Just keep proforing that ugly,
35:41
[SPEAKER_00]: roast cliche instead of adoring the thing that's in front of you instead of living consciously.
35:48
[SPEAKER_00]: It's hard.
35:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Art is hard.
35:49
[SPEAKER_00]: It takes grace.
35:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I spoke in Knoxville a couple of weeks ago.
35:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was in the Tennessee and I was going to say museum.
35:56
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a hotel and everything there is crafted.
35:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Everything there is art.
36:00
[SPEAKER_00]: There's chart that tells you who made the tables who made the chairs.
36:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And there was a glassing with art behind it.
36:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And there was these exquisite, these beautiful kitchen
36:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Wouldn't craft it, handcrafted wooden spatulas and spoon, and I'm like, oh, I'm always looking for that perfect thing.
36:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, oh my God, I could make it myself.
36:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't have to go to African Kia or whatever it is.
36:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I can make it myself.
36:25
[SPEAKER_00]: How amazing would that be that my kids see that?
36:29
[SPEAKER_00]: We have a huge four foot by nine and a half foot long dining room table that's three inches thick of pecan with these beautiful metal legs.
36:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I designed the whole thing.
36:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I did all the woodworking myself.
36:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And my daughter just stands at that.
36:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And she's got a whole half of it with all of her art supplies and she marks on it and makes a mess and I'm like,
36:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we've got this huge coffee table, similar that I made.
36:57
[SPEAKER_00]: It's all live-edge.
36:58
[SPEAKER_00]: It's all beautiful and I designed the legs and I had a metal worker make them in blood.
37:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And they know that with all the epoxy that it took on the top of the coffee table, they did it.
37:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And I taught him how to use the Sanders and I taught him how to use the brushes to get the the live edge and to get you know, and they signed the bottom Yeah, because artists signed their work.
37:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I want them to understand.
37:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I want them to look round and go.
37:21
[SPEAKER_00]: He did.
37:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is everybody dumb?
37:25
[SPEAKER_00]: yeah.
37:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, it's not a leadist thing.
37:29
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not a leadist thing.
37:30
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, it's a human thing.
37:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I care for people.
37:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I see how they carry themselves.
37:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I have this whole thing about pain, walking pain.
37:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I see a lot of people around here are either grossly overweight or they have a limp and they're like, or they're 30 and they look older than me.
37:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, that's not to be like that.
37:49
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't have to be like that.
37:50
[SPEAKER_00]: But these things are hard.
37:52
[SPEAKER_00]: There's supposed to be that creates
37:54
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I really live in a society that it makes it harder because at the risk of sounding like, have you ever seen the movie into the wild?
38:03
[SPEAKER_03]: It's the basic history story where the guy goes to the wilderness in Alaska in the movie.
38:09
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, in the movie he's sitting at the bar like talking about why he's leaving and he always goes society man.
38:16
[SPEAKER_03]: And now anytime I rant about capitalism and society, my brother just always goes,
38:21
[SPEAKER_03]: Society man to mock me and I'm like, but it's true.
38:26
[SPEAKER_03]: We live in a society that makes living consciously and trying to move slowly and honor and value handmade things and dig into the messiness of what it is to be human and emotional.
38:41
[SPEAKER_03]: that is hard because you're going against the grain, which is why we have a podcast like this because we want to center those conversations and not have our relationship to art be I open my phone and I look on a feed and people's shiny new painting or album or whatever is being celebrated and that's all we think is real and there's all this like messy in between that we hide away from each other.
39:07
[SPEAKER_00]: that is on the same thing in so many different levels.
39:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So many different places when I take my kids to the grocery store, sorry, the grocery store is metaphor.
39:16
[SPEAKER_00]: All I do in that my whole life is, is we're doing it in the grocery store.
39:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it feels like it sometimes.
39:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right.
39:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel sometimes I feel air and sometimes I feel like a bartender, like I stay in the kitchen.
39:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah.
39:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm drying glasses or I'm wiping the counter.
39:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, hey, what are you gonna have next?
39:30
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you mean?
39:31
[SPEAKER_00]: You need something.
39:32
[SPEAKER_00]: You need something.
39:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I always say like the one thing of all the things that people tell you about becoming a parent when you're expecting your first.
39:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I wish somebody told me that I was going to eat 30 minutes later than everybody else and my food would be cold and I'd be staying cold.
39:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Fairking hard.
39:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Dad ain't used different than mommings.
39:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So what I was going to say about the grocery store is my kids know and I'm conscious about them like guys listen I know that I'm pedantic.
39:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that I'm teaching you this stuff and I don't want to create cynical people.
40:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to create educated, smart, caring, loving adults but they know like we go around the edges and like you know what's in the middle of the grocery store?
40:10
[SPEAKER_00]: not food.
40:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Not food.
40:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we might need a can of pasta sauce or box of pasta because we're not going to make it at home.
40:20
[SPEAKER_00]: We can.
40:21
[SPEAKER_00]: We have, but you know, it's like most of it's not food.
40:24
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not very good.
40:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
40:26
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's another level of the comfort and ease that will kill us.
40:31
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, definitely.
40:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I always related back to like asking myself like what else am I going to do with my time my dad is a retired contractor my dad and I built this recording studio that we're sitting in here like not to ride on his co-tails, but I grew up around Somebody that would build whatever needed to happen and all of that and it's like it takes time and it takes effort, but like how else are you going to spend your time.
40:53
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
40:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to have this convenience so I can have more time to scroll on the internet or watch more TV.
41:00
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's like this is a fun one to spend here.
41:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
41:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
41:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Christmas presents this year were all things that they had to build, but they both got this, there were kind of models, but they were from Japan, and they were intricate, very intricate, and very detailed, and all hundreds of pieces, and when they arrived and went, when they opened them up, I was like, oh shit.
41:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, damn, they're going to get halfway through and then it's just going to, and they didn't, they did it.
41:25
[SPEAKER_00]: It was wonderful to see.
41:27
[SPEAKER_00]: My daughter's was spot on why it left a few pieces off.
41:31
[SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, he's a boy.
41:33
[SPEAKER_00]: He wants to get done fast.
41:34
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's something that I need to work on him to he understands that or I don't get him models that are for 20 year olds.
41:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
41:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we like to beat mindful of the time that our guests, I'm enjoying myself.
41:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you know, I don't want to sound like a cynical dude.
41:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the world today.
41:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this is, we're all asking those questions.
42:00
[SPEAKER_01]: we do like to wrap up with the same question for everybody and it's kind of, you know, you can choose which direction you like to take or take both.
42:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's either something that somebody has shared with you along your journey that continues to resonate in your head and fill your cup or something that you wish you knew at.
42:18
[SPEAKER_01]: 19 when you're quitting school and getting started.
42:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Two things, both of those things.
42:23
[SPEAKER_00]: One, and I think about this often, and I don't know if it really would have mattered.
42:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I really don't think it would have mattered.
42:29
[SPEAKER_00]: My life is very much fishes and loaves, and I look back, and I'm like, I wish, well, somebody like my parents didn't know anything about money.
42:38
[SPEAKER_00]: never had any money and I wish somebody would have said then because I was making good money I don't think I've ever made the money that I was supposed to be making or could have been making if I hadn't chosen that other path right that was where I said before but if someone said hey if you could really squirrel away and that to me sounds completely not fun
42:57
[SPEAKER_00]: But if I were super conscious, and again, I don't think it's actually in me if I was super cautious and I could have scrolled away money and put away stuff, it doesn't seem to have made any difference in my life right now.
43:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So that kind of gnaws at me.
43:10
[SPEAKER_00]: What if I stopped drinking 20 years earlier?
43:13
[SPEAKER_00]: What if I didn't buy all those motorcycles?
43:14
[SPEAKER_00]: What if I, you know, like, well, that sounds like a pretty dull life, but you might have money more money in the bank.
43:20
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's one thing that always bugs me.
43:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And two, it's funny.
43:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I have my own podcast, and I was talking to somebody
43:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Tennessee Frederick Frederick for Africa just the other day and he reminded me of something he learned for me 10 years ago and he said James you taught me this thing and I think about it all the time in my two adult daughters know this line and it says everything is always working out for you.
43:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you can understand that yesterday, like I said, you said, hey, how was your day?
43:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, well, yesterday kind of sucked.
43:50
[SPEAKER_00]: But if I could have yesterday and I tried, I did try.
43:52
[SPEAKER_00]: If I could have just everything's always working out for me.
43:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I wouldn't have had to, you know, shove arrows into my body.
43:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, so those two things.
44:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that.
44:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, is that everything's always working out for me?
44:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that a line that you use to help relax into your trust when it's hard?
44:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and a line that I, you know, try to help other people understand.
44:14
[SPEAKER_00]: The one thing about both creativity and life is that you can't force it.
44:20
[SPEAKER_00]: The only two things that you are in control of are your thoughts and your actions.
44:25
[SPEAKER_00]: That's it.
44:25
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not control of your spouse.
44:28
[SPEAKER_00]: You're barely in control of your kids.
44:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, no.
44:31
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm in control.
44:32
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not controlling control of the weather or your, my pickup truck died before the end of the year.
44:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't in control of that.
44:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Your thoughts and your actions.
44:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And knowing that everything's always working out for you is you being in control of your thoughts.
44:44
[SPEAKER_01]: that's beautiful yeah well James thank you so much for taking time this afternoon to sit with us and share your experience and share some wisdom with us I really appreciate being here I was kind of curious I'm like okay not a musician but let's go jump in all right James have a great day
45:05
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45:09
[SPEAKER_03]: If this conversation resonated with you, know that it is just one of many.
45:13
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45:25
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45:29
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45:30
[SPEAKER_01]: This shows produced by me, Mary Shaferbase, with help from the Kalaam.
45:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And all the music he hears written, performed and produced by me as well.
45:38
[SPEAKER_03]: Our show is edited and mixed by Leland Holden at Pod Punch and we are proud members of the Bluegrass situation podcast network.
45:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for being here.
45:46
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll see you next time.