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Are LGBTQ Rights Under Attack? · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign.
• 0:08
  Speaker B: Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host today. I'm Michael DiIorio. And joining me today is our special guest, author and longtime activist, Tim McCaskill. In this episode, we are asking a question that a lot of people in our community have been talking about lately, and that is, are LGBTQ rights under attack? Today we'll be exploring the current political climate and whether this is a moment of panic or are we just overreacting? We will define activism in 2025 and what resistance looks like now compared to previous decades. And finally, we'll talk a little bit about what you can do about it. What we want today's episode to help you do is to make sense of this current political climate by examining it through the lens of queer history that you can show up with perspective and power, regardless of whether you consider yourself an activist. And joining me to unpack this very loaded topic is Tim McCaskill. Tim is a legendary Toronto based writer, educator, and queer activist who's been on the front lines of the LGBTQ resistance for over five years. Decades. From fighting the bath house raids in the 80s to CO founding AIDS Action now and challenging systemic injustice in education, Tim continues to speak out on issues of justice and liberation today. Hi, Tim. Welcome back to the show and thank you for joining us.
• 1:39
  Speaker A: Happy to be here.
• 1:40
  Speaker B: Yeah, this is great. I'm really looking forward to unpacking this with you. And Tim has been on the show a couple times before, but it's been, I think, a couple years now. Tim.
• 1:47
  Speaker A: I guess so, yeah. Yeah. Old time goes by very quickly, so it's hard to tell.
• 1:51
  Speaker B: It does. All right, so before we jump in, I wanted to remind our listeners and viewers, if you're new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. And if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please do subscribe and leave us a review. This helps us get into the ears of the people who need us. And this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you are enjoying what we're creating, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. You could also tap the thanks button on YouTube to show us some love. All right. As I like to do when we start off these topics, I want to tell the audience a little bit about why I wanted to do this particular episode and why I reached out to Tim specifically to Help me do this. So there is a tension that I've been feeling in the last, let's say, year, maybe more. And when I talk to people, one on one, a lot of them are feeling it too. The best way I can describe it is that there is a sense that something has shifted and that the safety and visibility that our community has come to count on is maybe not so solid as it used to be. In the US for example, there is don't say gay and anti trans legislation and sweeping rollbacks on diversity, equity, and inclusion policy. We're seeing in the news that queer folks are being targeted, blamed, and even erased. But this is not just isolated to the United States. There is an increasing far right rhetoric here in Canada, in the UK and in Europe as well. And what I think we're seeing all over the world is the rise of hate in general, but especially towards women, trans folks, racialized people, and immigrants. So I think naturally, a lot of people are wondering, are LGBTQ folks at risk of losing the rights we fought so hard to win? Now, when I talk to people, some say the damage is already done and the time to fight back was yesterday. Others say that we're overreacting and that it's always been this way. That the cycle flows from socially progressive years, followed by conservative years, and then back again. Not to mention we have to consider that we are overstimulated in a new cycle that thrives on fear mongering and misinformation. So that's where I want to start off our conversation today with Tim. Let's kick things off by asking you, Tim, someone who has lived and fought through decades of these political movements and turning points, what do you make of this current political landscape?
• 4:21
  Speaker A: Well, I mean, I know that a lot of people subscribe to this pendulum theory of history, you know, that we swing from conservative to liberal and back and forth. And, you know, there is certain evidence for that depending on how far you actually look. I disagree. I would compare that to sitting around and in September in Toronto and saying, well, you know, there's been cool days and warm days, but, you know, I imagine it's going to be 80 degrees until Christmas. Right? Because my experience has shown me that if I don't look back to the winter before. And I guess I would say that I think that we're undergoing a kind of sea change here. That that period of relative tolerance in which we developed a movement and actually shifted the. The center of gravity of society in terms of sexuality and queer sexuality, that that period, in fact, is shifting into something different. And I always say that political events follow economic events, right? That they're, these things are connected. And that period following World War II has been relatively prosperous. It's had its ups and downs. The first part, when the gay liberation movement began was in a Kensian world. And people might not understand that, but you know, it's like, know when I grew up, I grew up in what was generally called a welfare state. You know, my university education was basically free. It didn't cost anything to go to university. You know, you got student, not student loans, but student grants to go, right? You, when you fill out your university forms, you filled out the applications as well. And then they gave you all this money to go to university. You know, the medical care was free. If you were working and lost your job, unemployment insurance would, you know, keep you afloat for pretty well as long as you needed it. If something really bad happened, you ended up on welfare. I mean people could have an apartment and eat on welfare. Now that period came to an end. It came to an end starting about 1980. And when I was researching Queer Progress, it suddenly occurred to me that that wave of anti gay stuff that happened around the late 70s and 80s corresponded to a shift in a new kind of system which we today called neoliberalism. Which means you get rid of that welfare state, you get rid of those supports, you get rid of the kind of redistribution that took place. And now it's not an easy sell. If you're trying to tell people you should give up for university, you should give up unemployment insurance, you've got to get them pretty scared and you've got to get them to figure that somebody else has stolen stuff from them and that they've got enemies. And you saw in the late 70s, early 80s the Anita Bryant stuff, the defeat of progressive politicians in the US it was the rescinding of municipal ordinances that had protected gay people from discrimination. You saw the bath raids here in 81. I mean all that was a real wave of stuff that took place at the beginning of that shift from a Keynesian system to a neoliberal one. Now the neoliberal system has been characterized by kind of a dog eat dog capitalism that has led to a huge redistribution of wealth in our society. This, you know, people want to go into the weeds. The David Filchansky at the U of T has done this study called the Three Cities in Toronto. And in 1970 he's got these series of maps. 1970, about 66% of people in Toronto lived in Middle Income areas. His map goes from red for the poor, blue, blue for the rich, and yellow for the middle. Right. And there's a mostly yellow map with a bit of blue and a bit of red. But by 2005, when he finished that study, already 53% of people were now living in below average income areas. So that map had changed. I mean, and that was an accomplishment, Right. That was a redistribution of wealth. So I think we're seeing a second sea change now because that neoliberal system has produced, well, two things. One, that redistribution, which means that there are now, like, these enormously, fabulously, obscenely rich people, you know, the oligarchs are lined up behind Trump when he was getting himself inaugurated or whatever. Right. You know, a half dozen people with more money than 90% of the rest of the planet put together. So there's been that kind of movement and general impoverishment of the rest. And if I'm right, and political power follows economic power, you find that these people now have inordinate political power. You've got musk, like firing half the people in the American government. Right. So we're seeing a change in those kind of liberal Democratic pretenses that governed our society into a much more direct oligarchic rule. And when people rule, they, you know, when people make the rules, they always make the rules to benefit themselves more. Right. And in that kind of shift, again, I think what we're seeing is a vilification of particular groups that can take the blame. So people in the States are, like, terrified of trans people. You know, trans people that have, you know, wrecked the economy. Right. It wasn't trans people that mean you've got a medical system that leaves millions of people uninsured. And it wasn't trans people that produced a housing crisis. Right. But trans people is what we have to hear about. Right? Yeah. And then after that, it's immigrants, and after that, it's who knows what, unions or whatever. And so if that, if I'm right, and that is the kind of shift we're going on to, like a different kind of rule that is far more authoritarian and one that needs scapegoats to blame everything on, then I would say that, yes, we're in for a rough ride, a rougher ride than we have ever seen before. And, you know, the question is, like, what do we do to survive that? Not just resist it, but, like, survive it. Right. Because if, you know, this is a tipping point, and we're going to have to learn to survive in a very new kind of Environment.
• 10:49
  Speaker B: Well said. And that's what this podcast is. At least this one episode is hopefully going to get people some ideas on what to do when we get to the the end here. But, you know, having lived through these kinds of tipping points before, or actually, you tell me, is this different? Is this bigger? Is this different than the previous ones?
• 11:05
  Speaker A: I think it is bigger to the extent that we have come farther and we have much more to lose. You know, in 1980, basically a decade of gay liberation activism, right, that had, you know, won these municipal ordinances, that won decriminalization, a couple in some states. In the states, I mean, in Canada, it happened a bit earlier. Certain protections. We could now cross the border, you know, because it was illegal for queer people across the border between Canada and the United States in either direction. Remember, up until early mid-70s, right, you were a psychopathic personality and therefore eligible to come either into Canada or the United States. So we have developed a kind of ecology of rights here where people are out and they're, they're married and they've got pension plans and, you know, they can expect not to be harassed in schools, and there's anti discrimination legislation. There's a lot more that we have won. And so if we start losing that, it really suddenly dramatically impacts on people's lives. The first time in 1980, still, most people were in the closet. Most people, you know, knew how to manipulate those kinds of situations where you didn't have much protection. But we've become accustomed to being treated as ordinary citizens, right? Now I say this big we. And people will say, well, the other thing that neoliberalism has done is to really exacerbate the divisions within our communities, right? So for some people say, if you're a young black beer kid, maybe your relationship to police is much like mine in the 1970s, when you had to be really careful and beware these guys because they would beat you up. Right? I don't have to worry about that anymore because, you know, now I've got all these kinds of things, but throw in some, you know, sexual orientation and mix in a little bit of race and a little bit of youth. And all of a sudden, you know, so some people, I mean, that's one of the problems is that we talk about ourselves as a community, but as a community, we all haven't benefited from these kinds of shifts in the same way. And so some people say, well, yeah, now you're going to see what we've been talking about, right? And that's true. On the one hand, on the other hand, it doesn't really help contribute to building a common movement to confront this stuff because, you know, now we're more interested in sniping in each other. Right. Right. Than we are in, like, getting together and figuring out who. Who our real enemy is. Right. It's like keeping our eye on. On how this whole system works and how it's working and how it's transforming itself.
• 13:43
  Speaker B: That's such a good point, Tim, because that's what I've noticed as well in talking to people is, you know, if I could divide certain segments of the LGBTQ umbrella, certain segments, and let's call them CIS white gay men, have this greater sense of safety, whether it's real or not is maybe another question that while others. So let's say trans racialized folks or queer bipoc people are more heavily targeted. And so when I look at the people that are saying, oh, no, this isn't that big of a deal, you're overreacting, and it's not that bad. They're in that first segment that the CIS white case. And so what I can see happening already within the LGBTQ plus umbrella is the splintering, as you were saying, of the folks who kind of, have, let's say, made it or, you know, safe. Whether, again, it's perceived or real, we're not sure. And then those who are still fighting. And what are your thoughts on that? Like, do we need to band together and have more of that solidarity to make any significant change?
• 14:38
  Speaker A: I think we do, but I think we shouldn't underestimate the difficulties that that entails. I mean, in going back to coming out in the 70s in Toronto, in 74, I came out, you know, whether you were rich or poor, you were in the same, more or less the same boat. Like, there were fewer people who were so fabulously rich, they could just fly off to someplace else, you know, and get away with everything. Right. And there were a few people that were so poor that they couldn't go to the local gay bar. Right. So all of us went to the similar places, the same baths, the same bars, you know, the same parks. Right. We, you know, everybody was sort of in that same boat. And so we experienced things in the same way. But now, because neoliberalism has turned us into, like, these really disparate groups that experience the world in different ways, we don't have that commonality anymore. And so people talk past each other. I think that AIDS has played a particular kind of role in that too, because we kind of lost an Intermediate generation that might have been able to bridge a gap between different groups. Right. You know, so many of the old activists, you know, of my generation died. Right. So we lost a lot of history and we. We lost a lot of memory about, you know, what it could in fact be like and why sticking together is an important thing. And we lost a lot of commonality that made people understand things in the same way that made sticking together a reasonable thing to try to do. Right. You know, I don't want to romanticize the past. There was. There was racism and there was sexism, and, like, the relationship between lesbians and gay men could be quite fraught around stuff. And, you know, some people were rich and, you know, use that to exploit people who weren't. And, you know, there was. It was all sorts of shit in those days, too. Right. But it wasn't to the extent that we find today. I don't think these divisions are such that people don't even see each other. They don't go to the same places anymore. I mean, just the whole sex thing. It used to be you had to go to the bath or a bar or the parks to get sex, right? Now people just order in, right? And so. And they never. They never, you know, they never have to rub shoulders with all the other people who are looking for the same thing. You know, you. So you select from your. Your. Your list, and, you know, you've already screened out all the people that you think you don't like, and so, you know, like, already you don't know and meet people like once did.
• 17:14
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's the impression I get. But I'm. I'm happy you can validate that for us here. All right, let's check in with our audience. So if you are listening or watching us, tell us in the comments, what do you make of the current political climate we're in? And do you feel like we're on the edge or will we ride this out as just a blip? Let us know in the comments if you're watching us on YouTube and if you're enjoying the conversation we're having here. I want to invite our listeners and viewers to come to one of our weekly events. Within the Gay Men's Brotherhood. We have sharing circles where you'll have a chance to share your own experiences in a bigger group format. And we also have our connection circles, which are smaller, more intimate breakout rooms where you can discuss the topics that we discuss on the podcast with other listeners. From the podcast, go to gaymansbrotherhood.com and check out our events section to RSVP. And if you don't have Facebook, that's okay. Just make sure you get on our email list, and we will email you the zoom link. All right, now that we've looked at the current climate, let's talk a little bit about activism and resistance. Tim, you have been on the front lines of activism for decades now, and I think a lot of our listeners out there, maybe I'm projecting, but maybe we struggle to define what that even means. So tell us in your own words, what is activism?
• 18:24
  Speaker A: Well, that's a good question. I've become less and less happy with the term activism, but I think people look and they see activism. They look at the old movies and they see people in demonstrations, waving their fists and shouting and all of this kind of stuff, and they think, okay, that's activism, right? And, you know, that was the tip of an iceberg of activism, right? If there was a demonstration, somebody needed to organize the demonstration, somebody needed to call the demonstration, decide where it was going to be, when it was going to be, what it was going to ask for, where it was going to go, who was going to marshal, how you were going to, you know, deal with the cops, you know, how you were going to follow it up with pushing politicians to do whatever it was you wanted them to do. You know, as Oscar Wilde said, you know, too many evening meetings, right? So today I find people want to. Want to be an activist, but fewer people actually want to put in that organizing work, right? Which is hard and sloggy and, you know, you have to fight with people. And, you know, some people you have to work with people you don't like very much or depending on the kinds of struggles that you're talking about, maybe people you disagree with and a whole bunch of issues. But we've got one thing in common that we need to work together on. And so, like, bite my tongue and, like, let's sit down with them and, like, work this out. So I think we should talk less about activism and more about organizing. I think that that's, like, more honest in a certain way and less romantic and, you know, and more real. Because this, you know, this is a lot of work. I'm thinking back to the Body Politic, where I was on the Body politic collective for 12 years, from 74 until, I guess, 86. And we had a collective meeting every Monday night for 12 years, right? Started at 7 and went on till 10 or so at night. And that was just the kind of the editorial kinds of meetings. Then you actually had to do your work. You had to do the writing, you had to do the layout, you had to do the editing. You had to, you know, figure out who was doing the distribution, all of. All of that kind of stuff. And I look back in these days and I thought, like, how did I find the time to do that? Right? It was just a shitload of work. And then, like, the bath raid started happening. Same kinds of things, like meeting after meeting and strategizing and disagreeing and arguing and figuring out what actually worked. And so I think people need to actually realize what it takes to build social movement or a political movement, right? It's not just, you know, going out on the streets and saying, that was fun, but it is like, how does that demonstration fit into a broader strategy? Like how. Like how. What do we need to do to. To follow up on that? And so it is not just something that people remember as fun, but something that is actually effective and, you know, that enables something else to happen so that we could then begin to begin to really push whatever issue it was that we were. That we were trying to push, right? And I think what's useful about the past is we can look at all those ways that that was done and not that you want to just copy them, because communications and everything is organized completely different today. I mean, a newspaper that you printed on paper and sold to people in bookstores, I mean, like, who does that happen anymore? Not so much. But recognizing what we were trying to accomplish given the tools that we had and given that we have different tools now, like, how do we accomplish those same kinds of things? So that it's not just. Not just about getting likes on, you know, something or other, but it's, in fact, actually engaging people and, you know, getting to know them and developing relationships with them. You know, it's. You know, even the people that you. You didn't like, you had to develop relationships with them. You know, you had to develop kind of a certain sense of trust, or if you didn't, you only knew how far you could trust them. You had to keep that in the back of your mind, right? So, you know, this is where I start to run up against, like, I don't know what the fuck happens these days. Like, I don't really understand how people communicate. I think. Did I mention. And one of the times that we've heard before, I did this thought experiment that I've done with younger people when I'm talking to them and say, like, in 1981, the police raid, the baths and the Next night, there are 3,000 people in the street. Not spontaneous mind. It took a lot of organizing to get those 3,000 people on the street, but also because it was an issue to so many people. What would happen today if police closed down Grinder and Scruff? Right. Would people go into the streets? I mean, they might want to, but would there be anybody who would actually organize them going into the streets? Right. Who would call that demonstration? Who would get a sound system there? Who would figure out which direction we were going to march in? Right. And how we were going to deal with the police if they started to come in after us with truncheon and, you know, all of that kind of stuff. Right. I mean, so this is where I become weaker because I'm no longer in my 20s, right. I'm no longer kind of on that cutting edge of technology and communication. I kind of look at it and think, like, wow, that's kind of neat. But, wow, how does that work?
• 23:38
  Speaker B: And I think that I'll give you my perspective then, for. For my age. So I'm 42. So I was born in 1983. And so my generation, I'm a millennial, kind of at the beginning, part of it, but my generation, and younger, in my opinion, we haven't really had much to fight against. Right. Millennials, Gen Z, Gen Alpha, even. We weren't even born in the 60s and 70s, and we were really just kids when the HIV AIDS crisis was at its peak. And yes, that did have. The ripple effects, obviously affected us kind of growing up in that era. Absolutely. It affected us in its own way, but we weren't fighting it on the front lines. So I'm speaking for myself here, but I think for probably quite a few people of my generation, activism and that word and resistance is more of like this intangible idea. It's not something like, to your question, I, Tim, wouldn't know what to do if that happened, if. If the police or the government just said, no, we're not. This is not happening anymore. So it makes me wonder, are we millennials and Gen Z at a, you know, have we become complacent in this fight that we haven't really had to fight? We've never been on the front lines of it. And again, maybe I'm projecting here a little bit, but I personally don't think that our generation knows how to fight or to use your definition, to organize or even band together, at least not in the same way that previous generations have. And so I think while we are definitely more tech savvy, sure. We are more visible. Absolutely. Social media, even just regular media like the LGBTQ folks are out there. We're out there, we're taking up space, for sure. But I have often had the sense that we have become victims of our own success and that, yes, we've gained this enormous visibility in media culture, but has it come at the expense of that solidarity we talked about at the beginning or that definition that you came up with of organization?
• 25:28
  Speaker A: Well, I tend to agree with you, but then I wonder, is it just me being an old fart and, you know, like, all these young don't know how to do it anymore, Right. So I, I, you know, you do see particular kinds of organizing. I mean, the kinds of networks that you've developed around this podcast, I think, I think are quite important, because what is happening there is that relationships are being developed and people are learning to trust each other and talk about things. So the question is, how do you move that into an organization that is much more disciplined for a kind of action rather than for the personal benefit of the people who are engaged in it? Right. It is really important for that first stage of people getting to know each other to take place and to kind of trust each other and to have a kind of affection for each other. That means that when I see something bad happening to you, I don't think, oh, God, that's not happening to me. I think, like, you know, I should do something about that, right? And that doesn't happen unless you have that kind of effect or bond. So we brought. And there were like 300 people arrested in the bath rage. 3,000 people came out the next night, right? So it wasn't just the people like, boy, I'm glad I wasn't at the bath that night. Right? Even though I probably crossed people's minds, right? But it was like, that could have been me. That was my friends, right? That, you know, was my boyfriend, right? All these people are, we've got to do something about this. So learning to build on the kinds of networks and things that we have now in a way that says, okay, like, what do we do with this? Right? Because the situation is changing, right? Where it's late August and all of a sudden it's getting colder, right? How do we learn to dress more warmly, right? I mean, how do we figure out someplace else to go? I don't know what, what it is, right? But what is going to work to not only resist, but go for the. Look at the underlying conditions that are producing this kind of chill for us, right? And what we can do about it.
• 27:34
  Speaker B: I think a lot of people, again, the younger folks, my generation and younger, are great with social media. But do you think that is enough? Like, if I'm posting stories, if I'm sharing news, if I'm posting petitions on my Instagram story or in a Facebook group, is that enough? Does. Does that make me an activist?
• 27:56
  Speaker A: Well, I mean, given the fact that we don't quite know what activism is. Right. It doesn't make you an organizer or. It does in a certain way. Problem is that the organizing of who your post and who your clicks and things go out to is all set not by yourself, but by an algorithm that is in control by somebody else. And so it's frightening these days. I mean, I talked to my partner about, you know, like, what we could do for next winter, and all of a sudden, like, stuff starts appearing on my feeds about, like, vacations you can go on next winter. It's like listening. I mean, how do they know that? Right? Or is the algorithm to say that two men of a certain age are going to be going, or, you know, last year you made a post from someplace else, so it must mean that you, you know, are going to go someplace in the winter. Right. So that we're all of that kind of social media activism, I think, is important, but it is siloed, by the way society organizes our information in ways that means that you're not reaching out beyond these kind of narrow silos. And so within those silos, people's ideas and understandings develop quite differently. And then they're like living in different planets.
• 29:15
  Speaker B: Yeah, right. And the other thing that happens, I think, is if you're posting. If I'm posting something about, for example, queer rights to my Facebook group, right. In the gay men's brotherhood, even on my own Instagram, 90% of which are gay, I'm really just. It's an echo chamber, right. I'm just kind of preaching to the choir. They. They already know that, or they know it's an issue, or they've already heard all about it. But it's not me saying, hey, here's what you can do about it, or here's where. Who you need to talk to.
• 29:39
  Speaker A: Which was the advantage of that old legacy media, you know, for it. It was very hard to break into. But when you got a story in the Globe, the Star, or whatever, right? You knew that everybody was going to read it, right? You knew that it was going to. It was going to be shared, and so you would fight to try to get that story in there and make sure that the framing and the spin was a way that actually communicated what you wanted. And that was often difficult because the reporters didn't get it. But that was like, you knew that you were going to be able to communicate to people outside of the kind of bubble of gay activists that they were at that time. So there's the other question. How do we actually begin to reach out to people who are outside of our bubbles, given. Given the. The social media environment, which, like, forces us into these narrow silos all the time? And once again, I would have to defer to people like yourself who have got some much deeper understanding of that kind of thing. Because it's funny, when I. When I look at. I don't look at very much even, but Facebook feeds and things like, I would think that everybody in the world agrees with me because all the notices and posts I get, you know, they're all things that I like. Right. Yeah. And yet I know that most people, or some people would like, like to string me up. Right.
• 30:57
  Speaker B: And we have to remember that things like these media companies, Facebook, meta, Instagram, they are owned and controlled, and they can censor and turn on and turn off what we see. And so is it even real? And that's a big. That's a big issue. A lot of the stuff we're seeing is completely fake.
• 31:13
  Speaker A: So then that brings. The question is, okay, is it important for queer people to begin to demand public ownership of media? Right. So that these kinds of things are not driven by apps that are driven by advertising dollars, but are driven by the public good? And we democratically decide through laws of too many evening meetings. Right. And to many. Whatever's. Right. What that public good looks like. Right. So that we do begin to, like, break out of this. So there's the kind of question where you. You need to kind of break out of a. Where you begin. Have to begin to think of politics in a different way, in a deeper way that if what we're talking about here is in fact shaping the way we're becoming isolated, it's not just a matter of us becoming active, but, like, how do we change that system which is isolating us?
• 32:05
  Speaker B: That's a big question. Yeah, I think that's a lot for the average person. Like, that's a big question for the average person to kind of grapple with without some kind of who's leading the charge, where do I go? Like, you know, you just feel so small to be able to make any change.
• 32:18
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I must say that coming out in 74. I mean, I felt small too, right? Because, I mean, I grew up in a world where getting crushes on other men and boys, you know, in my high school, it was the most abject, horrible thing that could be possibly imagined, Right? I mean, there was no role models or mentors or, or anything like that that would say, you know, what you're feeling about your best friend here in high school. It's like, it's okay, right? It's. It's fine. I mean, so we felt pretty small, but we were inspired by other things. I think maybe this is another important piece that we were inspired by other struggles that were going on. I mean, I grew up in the time of anti war movement because of the Vietnam War. And you know, we saw the Vietnamese people as giving their lives to try to throw the Americans out of their country who had basically invaded it, right? And then that kind of politics was an inspiration, an example to racialized people who were saying, well, we got to fight against racism in the same way.
• 33:30
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 33:30
  Speaker A: And then the women's movement, right? And so there were. When we began this, we on the one hand felt really small and isolated as gay people, gay men, right? Because people were really afraid of us and hated us, right? I mean, it was just like. It really did, right? It was very. It was intense. But there were all these other people fighting for change in the system around their issues, and that was an inspiration. And those were also people we thought this is who we should be talking to because maybe they can understand what we're going through, since we can understand what they're going through, right? And not that they, you know, automatically by any means, right? Not that gay men wouldn't be sexist and, you know, women couldn't be homophobic and, you know, racialized minorities couldn't be, you know, and so on and so on. Right? But it's a. With a notion that, okay, we've got at least some common ground here that we can begin to work on. And so what are the movements, the social movements today that we can begin to find inspiration from that we have common cause with, that are going to affect the life of everybody on this planet? You know, things like looking at that redis, then distribution of wealth, you know, now has become oligarchic, right? Where there's like a handful of people that control everything. Look what's happening in, in climate change, all of those kinds of things happening in human rights. There's a, There's a bloody genocide going on in Gaza right now that everybody is like, oh, the other way. Right. So finally you begin to see a little bit of movement. But, like, so how do we take inspiration from those kinds of struggles and. And how do we make connections with them? Because we have some common enemies and things are not getting any better for any of us. And for those people who think that. Well, you know, it's just the trans people that are being attacked at this point. Right. I mean, I'm not trans, so, you know, coming for us, too. I mean, you look at the Florida stuff, right? It's not just trans people. Right. It's all of a sudden no LGBTQ books of any kind in schools. Yeah, well, there's a whole generation of queer kids going to be affected by that. It's kind of almost like back in my time when I was in school. Right. So, you know, I think we've got to look for examples of people fighting back and take hope from them and do what we can to support them, and hopefully they will learn to support us.
• 35:59
  Speaker B: That reminds me of a quote that I love that I saw on social media, of course. And I can't tell you exactly who said it or wrote it, but I love it. It's that if you think you love freedom, but you don't care if it applies to everyone, then what you actually love is privilege.
• 36:16
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 36:18
  Speaker B: And I think that that speaks to it all, and that really hit home for me, like. Ah, yes. And that's just it. It's kind of like we talked about. It's the those who. Who have made it air quotes and then those who haven't. And I think the question is. Yeah, how do we build that solidarity across generations now and across different movements? And, yes, also understand that we have different issues and different needs and different identities which are valid, but at the same time, maybe a common enemy. Right. All right, let's also give a chance for our listeners and viewers to chime in here as well. And we want to hear from you. What does activism mean and what does it look like for you? Okay, so you can put your comments in YouTube. If you're watching us on YouTube, and if this conversation is stirring something in you, maybe a desire to show up more authentically, get clear on your values, or even find your voice in a world that doesn't always make it easy. The game in going deeper. Coaching collection might be a good next step for you. Our coaching collection includes two courses. One is called healing your shame, and the other one is called building better relationships, and it also has 45 coaching videos. Tools, prompts, and guidance to help you navigate real life challenges with more confidence and intention. So go to gaminggoingdeeper.com to learn more and get lifetime access to our content library. All right, Tim. This has been such a rich conversation. We looked at where we are politically in the landscape. We looked at what activism means, how it's evolved, what it might look like today. And so I want to bring it home with something practical for the audience who maybe do want to get involved. And again, I'm going to go from my experience here, you know, I read the news, I get angry, I rage when I see what's going on in the world. And I think someone needs to do something about this. And I feel powerless because I don't know what to do. I don't know who to turn to. I don't know what to do besides sharing a story on my social media or just talking to someone about it. And then we're both equally raging together with nowhere to channel that rage. And so being informed, I think for a lot of people feels painful because consuming these current events and watching what's unfolding in the world, it really forces us to deal with a lot of heavy emotions. And I'm someone who can deal with pretty heavy emotions, but I still find it easy to sink into that hopelessness or despair or kind of throw my hands and think there's nothing I can do about this. And I think that a lot of people will resonate with that. So my question for you then is for our listeners out there who do feel fired up and maybe want to get involved, what do you recommend? Where can we start? Even if we don't necessarily see ourselves as quote, unquote, activists, there's that old.
• 38:48
  Speaker A: Slogan that came out of the environmental movement saying, think globally, but act locally, or act locally and think globally. And I think that that is a good place to start. The reluctance to actually go beyond doing a post, right. And meeting real life people and figuring stuff out with them is a kind of fear of the unknown. Right. I mean, a lot of a younger generation, you know, went through that two years of COVID lockdown and, you know, are much, much less comfortable about actually meeting people that's not on a little screen like this. Right. You know, that. And even if, you know, you try to take a course or something and you get all the screens and people don't even like to have their faces up there. They just, you know, just a little black square with the name on it. Right. So I think that everywhere, no matter where you are, There are different things being organized and different things going on. And it's important to take that first step and that leap and think, okay, of all those issues that interest me, what's the one that I want to actually spend, put some time into realizing that my time now is fractured because I've got all these other pressures on me. It's not my, you know, I think we had a lot more free time in the 70s. We really did, right? It's a lot less pulling at our attention. But then like taking that leap and going out and meeting people and actually getting involved in some sort of real non virtual organization like that puts you face to face with some real people and allows you to begin to develop relationships with them and allows you to try to figure out, okay, what is the most effective way we're going to deal with this issue and starting that work. Right? Because that's going to give you the basis of feeling more comfortable in actually changing the way the world works, but also the kinds of skills and analysis that you need to be effective there. And then the second piece is like you're acting locally then thinking globally. It can't just be a matter of this small local issue, like, okay, I'm going to help try to help homeless youth in my community, right? And there's a, some sort of a system that's trying to help homeless youth. Very good thing to work on, right? But at a certain point you got to think, okay, why are all these kids homeless? Like, what's going on here? That is meaning that whole families are sleeping in tents and parks around the corner for me, right? I mean, like, what the fuck is this about, right? So this is more than just making sure people have got warm socks, right? Which don't stare at warm socks. Warm socks are really important in the winter. They really, really are. But like, what do we do that gets more to the root of what's causing this problem? So like, once you actually are in there and begin to understand the real life, real people side of this issue, then you can begin to abstract from that and think, okay, so what do we need to do that begins then make sure that everybody's got someplace warm to live, right? No matter what that issue is. That's the one example. So I think like getting over that fear of getting started is really important. And you know, it is, it is really interesting that I, that I find working with younger people that they're, that so many people are like, they're riled up and they're angry and they want to do stuff but they're really shy about working with people in real time, in real pace. Right. And, you know, I think that what you can say to the individual is like, okay, what do you need to do to get over that? Because you. You've got to get over that. I, in high school for, we used to have these public speaking contests, and the thing that terrified me most in the world, and I think it had to do with the fact that I secretly knew that I was gay, was, like, getting up in front of people and talking, because it was like, exposure, terrified of that kind of thing. And somehow or other I had to do something in class and did this talk, and the teacher said, oh, you should do that to the. The whole school, because it's an oratorical contest. And I just, like, almost shit my pants right there. Right? I mean, it's so terrifying. But somehow or other I was cajoled into doing that, and it was all right. It was kind of a rush, right? Being up there in front of those people and expounding and, like, it got me over that kind of a hump. And I think that, like, figuring out what support you need to get yourselves over that kind of a hump and start working on stuff that's beyond your computer and requires engaging with real, real people in real time, do whatever you need to get yourself over that hump, and then it's going to become easier.
• 43:38
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's such a good point. And I've noticed the same thing. Even this community and this podcast was born out of COVID when we couldn't meet in person. So we started here, but here we are still doing it. I think, Tim, the other thing is this fear of, or this maybe pressure to always say the right thing and fear of saying the wrong thing. This cancel culture, if you will, or call out culture. I think we're so afraid to say the wrong thing and offend somebody and then, you know, get canceled. I think it does keep a lot of people silent. So, you know, you even, like, you have an opinion, but you don't want to necessarily want to share it on social or with anyone, because what will people say? Or, you know, you're going to say the wrong thing, or you're someone's going to call you out or shoot you down.
• 44:20
  Speaker A: The left is so judgy. I mean, you're absolutely right. Judgy, judgy, judgy drives me fucking crazy. Because people have got to make mistakes before they figure stuff out. A and B, nobody's got all the right answers. And C, the word that you can't say today, but the word you can say today, you can't say tomorrow, right? And so, like, what's the important stuff here, right? I mean, let's go beyond that. We need to be generous. And one of the differences, I think when you're doing face to face, real people organizing and you develop these kind of relationships with people, you're more reluctant to kind of like cut them off and judge them. It's so easy when you're online. You say something wrong, I just press delete and you're gone, right? And I never have to worry about that or deal with your hurt feelings or deal with the fact that maybe that unsettled me because maybe I wonder if you're right. But I know other people got canceled, and so if I don't cancel them, then, you know, all that kind of stuff, like, works through, like real people in real space, in real time, doing stuff together. You learn to deal with disagreements in ways that are far more generous and productive. And, you know, like, maybe I disagree with you on this issue, but we've got to work together, right? And, you know, deal with our, you know, deal with our weaknesses. It's just reminded me for some reason it was an AIDS Action now meeting. And there was one guy who said in this meeting, okay, I, I need to tell people and sort of apologize for my behavior, but I've been diagnosed as bipolar. I'm manic depressive. And I can remember I said to him, it's like, okay, look, when you're depressive, you can be really cranky and a pain in the ass. When you're manic, you get so much stuff done, right? You're good for this organization, right? Like, like when you're really cranky, maybe don't come to the meeting that night. But like, we want you when you're manic because we have to be manic, because if not, like, we're all dead, right? So, you know, like dealing with people's differences and when they get things wrong, like being generous and trying to explain and engaging with them, all of that kind of stuff. I mean, we've all got a responsibility and if you're the new one in the group, a lot of responsibility to take on. So, you know, maybe, maybe kind of sense out how it all works first. Training young teachers going in here, you know, want to do equity work and change the world and this kind of stuff. My first lesson was, you get your first job, you're on probation. Tweety, right? You spend the first year in Your new school. Listening and watching and seeing who the allies are. You don't do anything for that first year until you figure out what the lay of the land is in the second year. You're going to be far more effective than if you try to go gangbusters in there and then you find out you offend people and, you know, you get a reputation and da, da, da, da. Right. You know, it's like organizing is strategizing. You gotta, like, think things through. It's also long term. We're not going to change this, you know, between today and tomorrow. So, like be strategic. Figure out how it works. Figure out who your friends are, figure out your enemies are. Bring that kind of broader analysis into something. And it's not, it's not rocket science when you actually get down to it. It's just kind of often basic common sense. And reading and listening to people.
• 47:29
  Speaker B: Yeah. Organizing, listening, caring. Yeah, right. That's. That's the basics of it. All right, Tim, for people who have been listening to you and want to learn more about you and your books, maybe. Where can they find you?
• 47:40
  Speaker A: I'm actually. You can tell a real name. I'm actually on Facebook, just Tim McCaskill, a real name. So you can contact me through that. I think I'm on LinkedIn too. Occasionally somebody contacts me on LinkedIn. Books are. Well, that's hard to say in bookstores these days because there's so few left. But both if you're interested in education. The first book was called Race to Equity and it's about struggles in the education system for 20 years and then queer progress. It's about 40 years of queer organizing in Toronto. And so, you know, you can get them online to all of these kinds of things. I go here, local neighborhood bookstore and you know, if they don't have it, tell them to order it and that'll be good. I got to sell a book.
• 48:21
  Speaker B: Yeah, I went to glad day they didn't have it sorted.
• 48:23
  Speaker A: Yeah, they drive me crazy sometimes.
• 48:25
  Speaker B: Anyway, all right, I will put all those links in the show notes for our listeners and viewers.
• 48:29
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 48:30
  Speaker B: All right, Tim, thank you so much for joining us on this episode today.
• 48:33
  Speaker A: My pleasure as always and keep up the good work.
• 48:36
  Speaker B: Thank you. And for our viewers and listeners, thank you for joining us on this episode. And if you're on YouTube, please go ahead and tap that thanks button to show us some love. And you can also subscribe to get early access to episode episodes on Apple podcasts to listen ad free and gain access to episodes before they are released wide. All of your support helps us to continue making content for you and supporting our community. So we thank you in advance and we hope to see you at the next event. Bye everyone.
• 49:12
  Speaker A: It.