Latest / The Marketing Brief / Devora and Brian Dive into the Trust Recession and Our Current Verification Economy (S2 E6)
Transcript
- Brian Aucoin: Hello, and welcome back to the Marketing Brief Podcast. I am your host, Brian Aquan, and this is the podcast where we briefly touch on topics across the marketing landscape. We're always joined by an industry expert, and I'm very excited to be joined by a colleague, a friend, someone who I've known in the business for a while and really love their opinion. Devorah Rogers. Devorah, welcome into the pod. Devora Rogers: Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. Thank you, Brian. Brian Aucoin: Yeah, we're excited to have you. Would you like to introduce yourself to the listeners? Devora Rogers: Sure. So I am my official title is Chief Strategy Officer at a market research firm called Alter Agents. But that aside, what that really means is it's my job to help brands figure out how to solve some of their toughest problems with research and insights. So that's what I do. Brian Aucoin: And you do it very well. I've always enjoyed our conversations and I've kept you as a a sounding board and a thought partner. So excited to have you here and and talk to you for a couple minutes. Devora Rogers: Wonderful. Great. Brian Aucoin: Well, you guys just published some research on the trust recession, which I really loved. It kind of spoke to a lot of ideas I was throwing out there, and that's always great when trusted research professionals are also tackling the same things. I'd love to dive into that with you. Is there any kind of overarching ideas that you took away from that? Devora Rogers: Yeah, well first to start, we've been doing this kind this a wave of a version of this particular consumer sentiment research since twenty nineteen. We started doing it before COVID. Because I was just seeing in other work we were doing for brands that there was a level of anxiety that I couldn't fully put my fingers on, finger on. And so we began doing it. We called it fear. We saw that Americans had just really high fear related to healthcare costs, related to their futures, their financial situation. That was twenty nineteen. Okay. So we start that. We do that in in in the late fall of twenty nineteen. COVID hits in February, March. 2020. And we were like, okay, what just happened? And we began, we we went back and did it again, and we did it again and again and again over a number of years. So this was the latest you know, wave of it. And I have not seen consumers this pessimistic in my lifetime. American consumers. Brian Aucoin: Yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting that I mean COVID almost put a pause on that in a way, right? Because it kind of changed, you know, we had more money because there was less to do and there was some supplemental money coming from the government. But it's like eventually we're gonna go right back to what that trend was. Yeah. Devora Rogers: I mean, they'll be studying this for years, right? Like this is for generations that we're gonna be studying what were all the inverse things that occurred as a result of COVID. For example, many businesses were expecting that they were gonna have to do layoffs and In fact, people were home and like you said, they had extra money because we weren't spending it on, you know, all kinds of food. We weren't even order ordering Uber Eats at the time, you know? So we had a lot if I didn't spend all my money on Uber Eats, I'd have more money and I did. And and Brian Aucoin: Yeah. Devora Rogers: consumers did. And so, you know, if you suddenly have five hundred bucks in your account that you normally don't have, you're like, Well, I guess I could buy myself something nice. And so there was this period of time where consumers kinda had it pretty good. They also got you know, stimuli from the government and s and there were programs to keep people employed. Some of that led then to inflation and and other things, at least partially. But yeah, I think we kind of started coming out of that in 2023. And then we there's been this readjustment. There similarly, they're trying to figure out like what's happening with crime, because it's the lowest it's been, but there was a little peak after COVID. And so, you know, there's just a lot of different dynamics that are occurring and resetting, and I think it's gonna still take some time to figure out where we where this all lands. Brian Aucoin: Yeah. And and consumers are are figuring out their own thoughts and feelings right now. we d we talk about what we've kind of dubbed go on consulting, what we've kind of dubbed the conversation economy. And it was really like okay, what comes on the back of the attention economy, right? Where brands just said, Okay, I'm gonna try and get in front of consumers twenty four hours a day because if I shout the loudest, they're gonna see me and they're gonna interact with me, right? And we've seen a shift in that of like, okay, you can't just do that now, you actually have to interact with people. And you guys have come out with this term called the verification economy, which I really love. Do you wanna define the verification economy? Devora Rogers: Sure. Sure. We almost called the the webinar and the report that we did the verification economy. Ultimately, I felt like trust recession laddered up what was going on. So first there's a trust recession. So people are less trusting than ever before. We can come back to that. But because of rising prices, because of fatig mental fatigue, emotional labor, bad experiences, fraud. All of those things are causing consumers to say, I I I mean, and they've been doing I I've been studying shopper behavior for for over a decade. And consumers ha have done a lot of research for a long time, but before it seemed like it was somewhat enjoyable. It was like, well, I'm gonna buy these really cool Bose headphones and like it's gonna be so great. And so I'm gonna go look at 20 sources and listen to a podcast, and that's all part of the fun. Now it's a little less fun. Now it's like I just need to know I'm not getting screwed. And am I gonna, you know, be able to return this? It is is I need to read the one-star review so that I know can I accept the one-star review reality? So now we're in a place where there's just a lot more effort that folks are feeling they have to put into it. Also when money's tighter and things cost more and everything is costing more, that also changes the way people behave. Brian Aucoin: Yeah, the review example is a really good one because I can resonate with that where, you know, you're going to make a purchase, you start reading reviews. It, you know, it used to be, I used to be in a space where I was like, I was just looking for someone to support my decision, right? A couple of reviews to say that I'm making the right decision. And now we're seeing that shift of like, no, I want to read all these reviews. I want to find a negative one and see if I can live with those consequences versus just like looking for a little bit of a nudge to kind of make this Devora Rogers: It Brian Aucoin: purchase. Devora Rogers: Yeah, and it's fairly mentally taxing, right? So if already, you know, a household is not feeling great about money, and i if their cred if their credit, you know, is they're they're having you know higher cr cr higher credit, like they're having more that they're keeping on their credit cards, lower savings, inherently buying's not as fun. And then if that product is more money than it used to be, sometimes by several, I mean I bought a cucumber the other day, it was four dollars. A a freaking cucumber. Do you know I was mad about that for days. Yeah, I'll be telling my grandkids about that. Brian Aucoin: Yeah, I mean you can almost calculate each slice what it's worth. Devora Rogers: Right. And then when my daughter is like half of this is like not so great and then I was like, Okay, that's two dollars I just threw away. Great, okay. Brian Aucoin: Yeah. Yeah. Devora Rogers: So Yeah, it's changing the I think the in the enjoyment that we saw for a number of years. And I do think that brands are gonna have to think about what what we said is that they it was built to optimize, right? The system was built to optimize. Hey, we're gonna give you the best choices. It's gonna be so great, you know, and retail media has exploded and is doing some incredible things. And yet now it's like Macy's in Walmart, you have an endless infinite scroll. So now it's like even harder to make a decision. So I I think that we're just getting to a place where brands are gonna have to kind of pause and go, okay, overwhelm is happening. people are feeling really stretched, you know, financially thin. What what is the way that we can improve upon this experience? Maybe we over-optimized and created a maze instead of the perfect shopping experience. And now I'm Brian Aucoin: Yeah. Devora Rogers: I'm a little mouse running around the maze going like I just wanna get, you know, a air purifier or a shoe rack at thirty dollars, you know. Brian Aucoin: Yeah. Yeah. But in this economy, like where value is important, right, you want to do all that work to make sure that that your dollars are going to an experience or a product and that you'll get the most out of it. I I think what's interesting too is is on the media side, like measuring you know, what vehicles work, word of mouth has always been really, really strong. But that peer-to-peer messaging, right, that comes from a quote unquote influencer and and I think the rise of micro influencers is is really interesting in this too, right? It doesn't have to be Kim Kardashian, right? It's somebody who's Devora Rogers: No, best not. Brian Aucoin: yeah, it's somebody in your in your circles that that has that cachet or is an influencer to you. And that has become the way that marketers want to bring their message to to consumers because it's more trusting, right? It's someone you see, it's someone you trust, it's someone you chose to follow. And now you believe them when they tell you this is a good purchase. Devora Rogers: Yeah, the creator we'd we've done some work on the creator economy with brands like Whaler. Whaler is a creator marketing firm. They represent creators and bring them into the marketplace. And so we did a large study with them last year. And we got I got to talk with like a dozen creators about their work. We got to talk with consumers. I feel pr I've I've read some articles like is it the end of the creator economy? I I don't know. I don't see that. May maybe there's a way in which it's saturated or whatever, but I think that creators have become the new well, one that my colleague Gauz says is the new brand director. For sure they are doing that for brands that let them. Absolutely. But I think they're also becoming the new trusted one-to-one. I mean it's not one-to-one, but you know, the the taking the place of you might have asked a neighbor, and now it's like if there's a creator that you like and trust and they say, I really like this product, someone that I follow on Substack is Charlotte Klymer, and they're a trans activist, political activist, and she's just incredible. And if she says like this brand is amazing, like I'm gonna believe her. And I'm just probably not going to do much other research. So they are the shortcut for brands to access, connect. You talked on a prior episode about authenticity. They are authentic. The best ones are. So I don't see a scenario where brands are going to stop using creators in so long as we have social media. And I just don't think that that's going to happen. Brian Aucoin: Yeah, we t we talk a lot about authenticity. I mean, it's always been important when trying to talk to consumers. I think it's so much more important now. The world is increasingly inauthentic. and as you guys have labeled, we're in a trust recession. So consumers are trying to figure out what what's real, right? What can I trust? I think influencers, peer to peer, word of mouth, are always things that are gonna cut cut through. But you guys also made the point that this value economy or or Consumer seeking value is here to stay, right? It's not just a blip that's going to be here for a year and then then gone. Are there other ways that marketers can try to cut through in this time when consumers are are seeking value? Devora Rogers: Yeah, it's a good question. And you know, it's always dangerous to make predictions in the world that we live in, but I I we felt pretty strongly that this is here for a a number of years. Like I'll just I'll just give you I'll I'll come back to your question in just second, but for a number of years, quality and function, as Americans had more money, they were more focused on on the quality of an item or its functionality. That has slipped back down to number two. Price for was number one for years and years. And then we just had this blip where like people had a little bit more money, you know, salaries were increasing, and so the the quality of the item bumped up to the top. Now we're back to price. so and now I lost, and now I lost the question. I knew I was gonna do that. Brian Aucoin: Well the are there other ways that marketers can cut through, you're right. We talked about word of mouth and and kind of peer to peer messaging. Devora Rogers: So I think the first thing is marketers have to acknowledge what's going on. And I'm not sure that they are. Like, I I think we've seen a lot of like vibe session. It's not really a recession. It's just like they just feels like it just feels like one. Brian Aucoin: Yeah. Devora Rogers: I I I guess that's true because the stock market's still climbing, but but whatever, like our maybe our definition of recession is outdated. People feel crunch right now. And so I think that brands have to just first level set, okay, now we're in a different place. What does that mean? What can we do? Are our products priced correctly? Do we do we have opportunities to create multi-packs or create solutions? I'll I'll give you an example. There's a brand that I really love. They're a NA alcohol, so no alcohol, mm-spirit, and called Pathfinder. Their product is absolutely amazing. It's the best any spirit I've ever had. And I can get them on, you know, Amazon Marketplace. Occasionally I can get them in stores. It's hard to find and they're usually several dollars more. But if I buy from them on subscription once a month, I don't have to pay for shipping. And so I get it for about five to eight Brian Aucoin: Mm. Yeah. Devora Rogers: dollars less. Honestly, that's a pretty good deal. They're in touch with me about it. It's you know, now not every product can achieve that. And I know brands have been moving people to subscriptions, and mostly I think it's that's not gonna be able to be sustainable. But for those brands who have a really good product that people are attracted to and love, I think there's an opportunity to do that. So first it's just like accepting we're in a new reality. Let's figure out how to be transparent. You know, I mean I think there's been a lot of price increases and you know, what would it look like to just be like, look, here is what our supply chain looks like, here's where we've had to increase, here's what we're pulling back, here's what we're gonna give back to you. I don't know, I haven't seen brands do that, and Brian Aucoin: Yeah. Devora Rogers: I I think that there's power in it. Brian Aucoin: Mm. I do. I I I agree too. And that transparency goes a long way with consumers too, right? Admitting it to yourself, admitting it to your consumers. Let's see how we how we can get through this together. That goes a long way with consumers. Devora Rogers: Yeah, and I mean quality did come down from number one to like number two, but it's still number two. Brian Aucoin: Right. Yeah. Devora Rogers: So can you talk about like, hey, our product, you know, I'm really into high-end chocolate that I use for making bonbons. I buy from yeah, I buy from a farm in South America and like get it sent, and it's like the most amazing thing you've ever had. I know what is going on in their supply chain because they're growing it on their farm. They're using all kinds of regenerative techniques. And so that I'm willing to pay for that. I don't even think about it. I that's the only one I'm gonna buy from. and so what are the ways in which brands can can, you know, really put that on the table and use that as a cue for quality. Brian Aucoin: Yeah, I love that. Bringing you into their process and what and what goes into it. I think that does go a long way. Well, I I always love to ask my guests a question. And the question going right now in season two is what is your superpower? Do you know what your superpower is, Divora? Devora Rogers: I do, I Brian Aucoin: Yeah. Devora Rogers: do. So Devorah is a name from the Hebrew Torah and it's a common name. Actually people have the name Deborah and Devorah is the same name, they're just in the Torah separated by a dot. And Devora means bee. And I was always annoyed by that. Like, I'm a bee. Like, I I know I love bees. Okay, hang on. I love bees. Let me not, I'm glad to but you know, it was just like, I don't know, I wanted more from my name. And I did a s I I worked with some folks and they were like, your name actually in the etymology means spoken space. And I was like, okay, that and so my superpower is I can pretty much go into any space, any room without briefing and speak and connect with people. I don't know what I did to get I think it's mostly just genetic. My dad could do that in the courtroom and I think it's just but that that's what I and then I had I had an astrology reading. I don't know. This is probably too much information for a podcast like this, but Brian Aucoin: No. Yeah. Devora Rogers: I've only done one astrology reading in my life and she was like, you she's like, you're gonna make all your money from speaking to people. So I'd say that's my superpower. Brian Aucoin: Yeah, and here you are using your superpower. That's awesome. Well, I've really enjoyed having you as a guest. I appreciate your friendship and your thought partnership. And I hope we continue to to throw ideas at each other because I really enjoy it. Devora Rogers: Well, I wanna invite you on mine. I think you're coming on t tomorrow, maybe, and Brian Aucoin: Absolutely. Yeah. Devora Rogers: we'll record that and I c I'm I'm excited to to to talk to you and yeah, it'll be great. Okay. Brian Aucoin: Love it. Well, how do people get in touch with you if they want to get in touch with you? How do people get in touch with Altar agents if they're interested in doing research with you? Devora Rogers: Yeah, so we're alteragents.com. we have a website where you can also access all of our content for free and most of it's not gated. and I'm on LinkedIn, so people can look me up there. And we also have our podcast change agents, anywhere podcasts are listened to. Brian Aucoin: Awesome. Yes. And I'm excited to come on change engines. Devora Rogers: Awesome. Brian Aucoin: All right. Well, thank you for joining us. This has been a brief conversation with Devorah Rogers. I am your host, Brian Aquan, and this is the Marketing Brief podcast. Stay curious out there, everybody.