Latest / Mental Health Matters for Christians / Ep6 I Hated My Feelings—Until This Changed Everything

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Ep6 I Hated My Feelings—Until This Changed Everything · Mental Health Matters for Christians

0:00
So we're, we all have to find, you know, emotions like we're
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talking about. They're, they're dangerous
0:04
things. We all have to find ways of
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dealing with and coping with those emotions because they can
0:09
take over, they can motivate us. We can find ourselves doing
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things that we later regret. If you're in a fit of rage, if
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you're. Yeah, yeah.
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So our feelings are important, but they're also dangerous.
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So that doesn't sound good to me, just so you know.
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Hey everybody, I'm Christine. Welcome back to the Mental
0:30
Health Matters for Christians podcast.
0:33
Today is one of the. Episodes where I sit down with
0:35
my Co host Tim Long, a therapist from Los Angeles, and we unpack
0:40
different aspects of mental health from a faith perspective.
0:43
Today's topic is why are. Feelings important.
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This is Part 2 of a previous conversation on this issue.
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The last time we spoke about it, Tim unpacked his journey of how
0:55
disregarding his feelings led to years of a pornography
0:59
addiction. If you'd like to check out that
1:01
episode, the link is in the show notes.
1:04
Today it's my turn to unpack my journey with feelings and what
1:09
it was like to disregard my feelings, especially any
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vulnerable feelings like sadness or grief, and always go straight
1:18
to anger. I share very vulnerably how I
1:21
had to learn to validate those feelings and also to self
1:25
regulate. Let's get into it.
1:29
So last time we were kind of going into my story about how I
1:35
learned feelings weren't important, and then how I began
1:39
to learn the feelings are important.
1:41
Right. And how you thought that
1:42
everybody thinks that feelings are important, and I said no,
1:44
they don't. Yes.
1:46
And it took me a long time to figure out the feelings were
1:49
important. Yeah, because I I mentioned
1:52
that. The only safe feeling for you
1:54
was anger. Yeah, and I don't even know.
1:57
I mean, I I didn't know that till much later.
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So and I wouldn't, I don't even know if I call it a safe
2:01
feeling, but I see what you're saying is because I didn't feel.
2:03
Safe. I weren't consciously thinking,
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oh, I can be angry. Right, I just that's just my go
2:09
to is a default, yes. So we're going to talk about Why
2:12
are feelings important? Part 2.
2:15
We had experiences that taught us that feelings are not
2:18
important, that we just need to shove them aside. 100%, I think
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that's a lot of people's experience.
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I agree, and I don't know that a lot of people think feelings are
2:27
important. You know, even though you your
2:29
premise is we all know feelings are.
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Important at a gut level. At a gut level, OK, there's now
2:34
as you got now you at least qualify it, Yes, but I grew up
2:37
really hating my any of my vulnerable feelings.
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Yes, you know. Yeah.
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Like sadness is not safe, and it's not safe to be sad.
2:45
It's not safe to experience that or to feel that.
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Yeah. Suck it up, buttercup.
2:51
Suck it up, buttercup. Yeah.
2:53
And then so bring us into you, you started to talk about with
2:57
this therapist that had you watching Inside Out.
2:59
OK, I watched it a few times and then I was like, OK, I guess we
3:01
need sadness kind of kind of like that, you know, like, Dang
3:04
it, I don't really want sadness. Well, in fact, that's that was a
3:07
more recent therapist from that I met in the UK.
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So that was like up in like 2016.
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But I had a therapist way back in 2001 that I saw in Miami and
3:17
she would always say this and I hated this line.
3:20
Take me to your pain. Yeah, Right through.
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And I was like, there's got to be another way, Yeah.
3:28
For for me to be like healed and whole and whatever.
3:32
Like I don't want to go through my pain.
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She's like, you need to grieve. I'm like, isn't there some other
3:36
way? There's got to be another way.
3:37
Yeah. And.
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And. And so I remember one day, dude,
3:41
I dressed up. I'm not kidding.
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You head to toe in black. OK.
3:46
And we're in the middle of therapy halfway through the
3:49
session and I said this is not working.
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And she said what's not working? I said, you have told me many
3:54
times I need to grieve. I'm wearing all black.
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I came here to grieve. Yes.
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And she's she busted out laughing like you're doing right
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now. I was like because I was like,
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OK, fine. She says I need to grieve.
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I'm a dressed up like I'm going to a funeral, I'm going to
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therapy, I'm going to grieve today.
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And nothing happened, you know? Yeah, yeah, of course.
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How do you grieve? Yeah, I'm, I'm curious, do you
4:16
still feel that frustration when you go back into that memory and
4:20
you hear? Me and her and her.
4:21
Yeah, yeah. And her saying, hey, take me to
4:23
your pain. Yeah.
4:26
Oh well, I never liked that sentence.
4:27
Yeah, and you still don't. Well, who wants to do that,
4:30
right? OK, what?
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All right, so here's the thing. So then I'm going to skip to the
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next therapist. Like, you know, that's more
4:36
recent. Who would say this?
4:39
Listen to the needs of the little you.
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Oh boy. Oh, and I was like the first
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time she ever said that. I was like, who is she and do we
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need to kill her? Yeah, yes.
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Oh, I was. Like, so like, I get that
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reaction all the time. Do you really?
4:53
Oh yeah. Like I yeah, just one they want
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to kill. Like they start to pay attention
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to the little you inside of them.
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And no, I hate that piece. I want to kill it.
5:02
I. Was like she does not sound
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helpful. Just little me.
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Just the word little right is like.
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Disgusting. Maybe because it brings me back
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to when I was little and I couldn't help myself.
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I was powerless and nobody wants to feel powerless.
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And you're in an abusive traumatic context, you know,
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where it's not safe to talk about feelings and feel my
5:26
feelings. So I don't like that little girl
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because I was trying to not feel any of that.
5:32
I'm trying to be like above all that and be like, you can't hurt
5:35
me. Yeah.
5:37
Yeah, suck it up, buttercup. I'm trying to be the buttercup.
5:40
Like I'm trying to be a badass. I don't know if I it's OK to say
5:42
that on a Christian show. And, and it sounds like there's
5:45
still a version of you that still wants to be the badass.
5:48
Like doesn't. I mean, I would like to not be
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in pain, yes. OK, OK.
5:53
But I, I feel like, you know, I went on a journey of like
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learning, OK, OK, listen to the needs of a little of you because
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I learned in that particular season that me hating myself for
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my feelings like isn't serving me.
6:12
Like I would try to talk myself out.
6:14
So like just maybe something happened.
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I feel rejected by this person. And it was not even anything
6:20
they did on purpose. It's just the perception that I
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felt and and then I hate myself for feeling rejected because I
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knew this person wasn't trying to reject me.
6:31
So I like then? I hate myself for hating myself.
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That's an intrapsychic conflict. Is that correct?
6:37
It is, you know, Yeah. And you've used that term a
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couple of times, intrapsychic conflict.
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Like I'm feeling this thing. I feel problems with this thing.
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And so I hate myself for doing that.
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For feeling. Yeah.
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And how I tend to think about those intrapsychic conflicts is
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in terms of like a negative feedback loop.
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Like I'm feeling this feeling and so I react out of this
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feeling and then that reaction has negative consequences.
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And so now I'm like, I'm trying to cope with that and so I start
7:06
to fight myself. Well, I was just trying to stay
7:08
in my head and say, she's not trying to reject you just
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because she got up from the table and went to wherever and
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that that didn't mean you're not important or whatever.
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You know, like I'm thinking of a benign example.
7:19
But but then so because of in therapy, like listen to the
7:23
needs of the little. I remember just one time, like I
7:26
was, we were walking to class, it was a few blocks away and I
7:30
was walking with a friend and we'd already said, hey, catch me
7:33
up on what happened in that meeting yesterday on our walk to
7:36
this class, right? That's across, you know, a few
7:39
blocks away. I said great.
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So then we're start walking and I'm going to share about an
7:44
experience I had with a good friend about a meeting and then
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somebody walks up and said, are y'all going to this class?
7:53
You know, doctrine or whatever the class was?
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And, and we said yes. And she said good.
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And she just like plants herself in between us to to join our
8:00
walk. And this was a date that we were
8:03
going to have. Not a date, like a romantic
8:04
date, but like we're going to have a conversation.
8:07
Forward to like this special time with your friend.
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Yeah, because because it was a friend who didn't live on
8:12
campus, I didn't get to see her a lot.
8:14
And and so I was looking forward to this time because, you know,
8:19
once class is over, she's gone, she's going back to her family,
8:22
whatever. And so I knew and I wanted my
8:25
friend to say, hey, sorry, but we we're going to have a meeting
8:28
I wanted. Her to stand up and like, say,
8:30
you know, switch places like I, I want to be next to Christine.
8:34
Yeah. Polite way to say you're not
8:37
invited. Right.
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Yeah. But there was no polite way to
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say that, so she didn't say anything.
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So then I felt really unimportant and then I felt
8:45
rejected and I knew my friend wasn't trying to reject me.
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But then I hated myself for feeling rejected because I'm
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trying to tell myself she's not trying to reject you.
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So here's what happened. So I'm about to cry and I'm on a
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walk with these two girls and I don't want to see them.
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I don't want them to see me cry. Like this isn't like the I know
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on a cognitive level I'm not being rejected and I want to cry
9:11
in front of them. So I was like, I didn't know
9:14
what to do. Well, thankfully I reached in my
9:17
pocket and I've found a set of keys that I had told somebody.
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I just happened to find them this morning.
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Somebody had left them in a in a doorknob and I recognized the
9:26
keys. And so I texted my friend, Hey,
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did you I found your keys and she goes, oh, I've been looking
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for them. So I said I will put them in
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your like her campus mailbox. You know, we all had one.
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So I said, I'll put them in your mail.
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I forgot to do that because I reached in my pocket.
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They were there. So that gave me the perfect out
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to say to these girls, I have to go back.
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I forgot to give give this girl back her keys, which because I
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was about to cry and I don't think I was going to get out of
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crying in front of them. So I turn around.
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So my the keys were great for me in that moment.
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So I go, I start walking back to campus, right?
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And I'm replaying this thing that just happened where
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somebody just joined our walk and didn't know that we were, we
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had a plan on our walk. So I'm curious.
10:06
Tell me. Yeah, if you if you imagine
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crying in front of these girls. Yeah, actually, I don't know if
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I want to imagine that because I I just feel like that would be
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embarrassing, but go ahead, go ahead.
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Yeah. Well, yeah, I want to.
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I'm curious. Like, tell me about that
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embarrassment. We'll be, I mean, I don't know
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if I'm going to cry right now just thinking about it, just so
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you know, but it's OK. I do have a lot of mascara on.
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But anyway, it's all right. We'll figure it out.
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But I knew what was happening wasn't a big deal, OK?
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Yeah, and, and I can hear it's not if I imagine in that moment,
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it's like there's almost an accusing voice inside of you
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saying this isn't important, why are you getting upset about?
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This it's just like she's not trying to reject you like like
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so if I'm, if I'm looking at little me in that moment, I'm
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going don't be stupid. Yeah, and when you tell her
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that, what does she feel? What does little you?
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Feel. Oh, she feels worse.
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Yes, yeah, she doesn't go Oh, OK, she goes.
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She she gets smaller. So so on the way back, I'm
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walking back with the keys think playing this whole thing in my
11:19
head going because I'm cross with little me, right?
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And I'm like, I know that's not the right answer because I've
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been in therapy long enough at this point to know me hating her
11:31
isn't helpful, right. So I'm like, OK, what do I do?
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And I'm going, OK, so I, so I say out loud, listen to the
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needs of the little you. I'm like OK.
11:40
I can see that you could, yeah. So, so I'm like, well, what does
11:44
she need? And I go, well, she doesn't need
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you going. Don't be stupid, right?
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Right. She doesn't need that.
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So I go, what does she need? And I'm like, OK, and this is
11:55
hard because I'm like, I've never really paid a lot of
11:58
attention to her. Yeah.
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So I'm walking back to my room and I, I dropped the keys off
12:03
and I decide I'm not going to this class, OK, because I'm, I'm
12:07
in my stuff right now, right? So I decide I'm going to go to
12:10
my room and be with little me, whoever she is.
12:14
I don't even know. OK, And I walked into my my
12:18
house. I think my room was on the maybe
12:20
the third floor. So I walk in the ground level,
12:22
which there's no bedrooms there and somebody's walking out from
12:25
the house. I lived, I lived on campus with
12:26
12 people. This is 20.
12:29
I, I lived there from 2016 to 2020 when I was, I'm going for
12:31
my midlife crisis degree. I And so I see one of my
12:36
housemates coming out and she sees me and looks like probably
12:39
look like I'm about to cry because I was right.
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And she's like, and she's super cheery and she's like, are you
12:45
OK? And I said I have to go to my
12:48
room now and cry. And I was like, I've I've never
12:50
said that sentence, even repeating it is so like, you
12:54
know, but. I love that though.
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Like that's. Whatever.
12:59
It's because you're a therapist. Yeah, but I was like, I was just
13:04
like, I, I was trying to say, don't talk to me right now.
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I can't talk to you right now 'cause I gotta go to my room and
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cry, right? And so her, her face went to
13:11
like, oh, like she wanted to help me.
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Like whatever's wrong that's making you cry.
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She wants to move in and. Yes, and I don't know how to
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deal with like attunement cause I've never experienced it.
13:20
Well I've probably had it in therapy right?
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Yes, but maybe not in real. Life in real life, yeah, IRL is
13:24
totally. Different, right?
13:25
And so I'm like thinking, no, this is about me, me and little
13:29
me. You know you can't, you're not
13:30
invited to this, right? I don't know.
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I don't really know what I'm doing at this point because this
13:35
is freestyling. I've never done this.
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All I know is me telling little me to shut up and stop feeling
13:41
rejected doesn't work, is not helpful.
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So I don't know the alternative. I'm trying to figure it out.
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So I go to my room and I'm like, I sit on the floor.
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I don't like the like, I don't know if I've told this story.
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So this is. I love this.
13:55
You would. So I'm like, OK, little me, OK,
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So I, I didn't know what to do. So I grab a pillow.
14:04
OK 'cause like, I'm just dealing with thin air, right?
14:07
So I grab a pillow and I hold a pillow.
14:11
Yeah. I feel like you're having a
14:12
proud dad movement. Absolutely.
14:14
My God, I grabbed this pillow and I'm like holding the pillow
14:18
like it's little me, OK. I don't know why I needed
14:21
something tangible, but I'm like, I'm trying to be like, and
14:24
I don't even know what I'm doing, OK, but I'm like, it's
14:27
OK. It's OK.
14:28
And I'm kind of be like, it's OK.
14:30
She didn't mean to reject you. That's not what she was trying
14:33
to do. She just like she didn't know
14:35
what to do when the other girl came up.
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You know what I mean? And I'm just like, it's OK, you
14:40
know? I'm just trying to calm her
14:41
down. Yeah.
14:42
Are you going to cry? Yeah.
14:44
It's so sweet. This is so.
14:46
Sweet. Well, I guess it was because I,
14:48
I mean, I just, it was my first time ever being kind to little
14:52
me. Yeah.
14:53
Like maybe or intentionally kind.
14:56
Yeah, because I know I normally was just cross because it's
15:01
like, you shut up, you're not helpful, you're weak and you're
15:04
little, you know what I mean? So it's like, no, you're
15:06
important. So I guess I was giving her
15:09
attunement. Is that right?
15:10
That's right, you were seeing her and you were soothing her.
15:14
Yep, you're right. So, so like I, I hugged the, you
15:17
know, the pillow and like, you know, and then we just kind of
15:20
like cried for a couple minutes and just kind of just kept
15:23
holding her. You know what I mean?
15:24
And then just kind of like, you know, just hold her and just
15:27
kind of calm down. So I just moved through that
15:30
feeling, that sadness, let myself feel my feelings.
15:33
Yep, That's right. Instead of go straight to anger,
15:36
because it was always anger, turn inward at the anger.
15:40
Yeah. Because I'd be mad at myself for
15:41
being mad at myself. And it's just like, what is
15:43
this? It's a horrible cycle.
15:45
It is a horrible cycle. So here.
15:48
So I will tell you that that was the first time I did that.
15:52
So another time, something, you know, similar happened.
15:56
I think it was something that happened in the kitchen.
15:57
There's always stuff happening in the kitchen for some reason,
15:59
because I guess because 12 people share in the kitchen,
16:00
this stuff's going to happen. Stuff's going to happen.
16:04
Well, and I thought, OK, I got to go to my room, you know, And
16:07
I was just like, what are we doing?
16:09
But I'm like, just, OK, we're doing this because there was
16:11
this judgy part of me that's like, this is stupid.
16:13
And I'm like, shut up, you know? And so I'm like, listen to the
16:16
needs of the little me. OK, so somebody had sent me a
16:22
Valentine gift. A dear friend sent me like a box
16:25
for Valentine's Day. And it was a bunch of
16:28
Valentine's candy, which I was like, that's cool.
16:30
But then there was a teddy bear and I thought that's dumb,
16:32
right? And and the box was big because
16:35
of the bear. Like it could have been the box
16:37
could have been a much smaller box with just the candy.
16:39
Did you not have like stuffed animals growing up?
16:43
No, I don't think so. I don't remember the stuffed
16:45
animals. I think I no, I had.
16:48
I wanted like guns. OK.
16:50
I wanted to protect myself, you know what I mean?
16:53
So, so I get this and I looked at the postage on the box like
16:58
$45 and I don't think I know. So much of that was spent on the
17:02
teddy. Bear such a way.
17:03
Well, and the bear probably cost $8, right?
17:06
So I'm thinking if you hadn't had this bear, this would have
17:08
been much more reasonable transaction, right?
17:11
But I'm like, I kept the bear because of the friend who sent
17:14
it, not because I thought a bear was practical or helpful, right?
17:17
So I just kept this bear just laid on my bed, never did
17:19
anything. Right.
17:22
Well, here then the bear became the proxy for little me because
17:25
the first time I grabbed a pillow.
17:26
So the second time I grabbed the bear and so then I I don't even
17:30
know. I probably didn't have the bear
17:32
the first time, right. So now the bears in my life and
17:34
it's she's got is a she, I guess they he has no use.
17:39
And so I was like, I'll pick up the bear.
17:40
You know, Lisa had like a face on it instead of like a pillow
17:43
is kind of like Plaid, you know, So I would hug the bear and talk
17:48
to the bear, right. And Fast forward in therapy.
17:54
You know that where I, I remember telling my therapist
18:02
because I would do I would then I got to the point where I would
18:05
hold that bear every single day, right?
18:07
And I would, I would pray a prayer.
18:09
It was called a prayer for sense of being.
18:12
Huh. Then can you take us into that
18:15
prayer? Yeah, I can quote the prayer.
18:17
Yeah. Yeah, why don't we pray now?
18:19
Are we going to pray it? Yeah, why not?
18:21
OK, I got the prayer. You ever heard of Leanne Payne?
18:24
Yes. She was like this woman who had
18:26
an inner healing ministry and it was she.
18:28
She would have conferences every year at Wheaton College, so she
18:32
would talk about a sense of being at her conferences.
18:35
I never understood a word she said.
18:37
OK. I'm just going to be honest
18:38
with. You.
18:38
Yeah, she could be a little esoteric.
18:40
Very much. But there's a lady in London who
18:43
has an inner healing ministry who was who was trained by
18:45
Leanne Payne. Oh sweet.
18:47
So her name is Lynn Button and she, she's, she was like, she
18:50
traveled with Leanne whenever Leanne was in Europe.
18:52
She she was with Leanne for like 30 years.
18:55
OK. So she's like the UK version of
18:58
Leanne Payne, although she would say Leanne's the American
19:02
version of me, right. Anyway, in her when she would
19:07
pray the prayer for sense of being, it was very prescriptive
19:10
was it was just line by line, whereas Lynn Leanne would just
19:14
pray whatever came to mind for sense of being.
19:17
So I remember asking Lynn Button one time when you pray sense of
19:20
being like at her conferences, why is it always the exact same
19:24
prayer? She goes, she said, because
19:26
that's what the Holy Spirit told me to pray.
19:28
So she never deviated. So here's the prayer.
19:32
I don't and I told her honestly. I said I don't like the first
19:34
line. Yeah, great.
19:36
I love it already. Oh gosh, you are just weirder
19:39
than I thought. All right, so it is.
19:43
Father God, I pray you will fill me up with love and cuddles.
19:48
I don't like that line. Yeah, I don't like the word
19:50
cuddles. And that was part of her
19:52
prescriptive. Line yeah that she that she said
19:54
the. Holy Spirit.
19:56
Because cuddles are hugs. In the UK they say they don't
20:00
say hug, they say cuddle. They won't say give me a hug,
20:02
they'll say can I have a cuddle? That's what they say, yeah.
20:07
So I just, it feels like, like, like, I don't know.
20:11
Anyway, so I get embarrassed if I have to say this publicly,
20:13
which here I am. Wonderful.
20:14
Thank you. OK Father God, I pray you will
20:18
fill me up with love and cuddles, enlarge my capacity to
20:22
receive from you, set in place the core of my being, fill me
20:28
with security. Give me a firm foundation
20:33
that's. A good one.
20:34
Fill in the bottom of the well of my being with your rock of
20:39
truth and security so that as I am filled with being, I no
20:45
longer leak. Pour in your nurturing presence
20:51
and rest. Rest in me as I rest in you.
20:56
Like a baby content in its mother's arms.
21:00
My soul is a baby content. May it be so for me.
21:05
Amen and Amen. And by the way, the end of that
21:09
prayer is directly a quote from Psalm 131.
21:13
I don't know if you recognize that, Mister Bible scholar.
21:17
I'll go to Psalm 131 and I think it's from like, well, I know why
21:22
you wouldn't recognize it because it's the message
21:23
translation. But anyway, in Psalm 131, it's
21:29
it's short, it's like 3 verses, OK, says God.
21:33
I'm not trying to rule the roost.
21:36
I don't want to be king of the mountain.
21:38
I haven't meddled where I have no business or fantasized
21:42
grandiose plans. I've kept my feet on the ground.
21:46
I've cultivated a quiet heart like a baby content in its
21:50
mother's arms. My soul is a baby content.
21:54
Wait Israel for God. Wait with hope.
21:57
Hope now, hope always. That's Psalm 131.
22:01
What's interesting about this prayer is I remember talking to
22:03
my therapist about my birthday in the UK, my first, the first
22:06
birthday that I had when I lived there, which was 2017.
22:10
And I was a hard year for me because I felt I was so much
22:13
older than my classmates that I sometimes didn't feel like I fit
22:18
in and sometimes didn't get invited to some things, you
22:20
know, like like anything what we did as a group because it was 24
22:24
students all in the same apologetics program, of course I
22:28
was invited to those things. But there were just times where,
22:31
you know, I just noticed like not getting invited.
22:35
And I thought, I just assumed it was my age because people
22:38
thought because it because most of my class was younger, like in
22:41
their 20s. And so I was the one that when
22:47
the first person in my class who had a birthday, which is like
22:49
October, and I knew this girl and I knew she was having a hard
22:52
time because it's like we're coming from all over the world
22:54
and we're doing this one year course in this other country.
22:58
And so, yeah, you're going to have some challenges because you
23:00
move to another country and you're going to be there for a
23:02
year. So she had, we'd already talked
23:05
and I knew there was some struggles.
23:06
So in her birthday we had come and I thought, I want to
23:09
acknowledge her birthday. So I went and bought a card and
23:12
I passed it around, had everybody sign it and then
23:15
surprised her with it on her birthday.
23:16
You know, because we had class that day and they even bought
23:19
like something that we could all eat that was sweet that we could
23:22
celebrate. And then I ended up being the
23:24
person who would always buy the card and making sure.
23:27
That became your role. Yeah, well, when my birthday
23:30
came around, I was like, I'm not buying my own card and passing
23:32
it around. Yeah, I'm not saying a word.
23:34
Y'all going to have to figure this out.
23:36
And they did. And they surprised me and I
23:39
remember telling my therapist about it and saying that because
23:43
I I didn't know what they would do and whatever.
23:46
And they actually had a surprise party for me.
23:49
Like and it was breakfast because we had lectures all day
23:52
and stuff and it was on, it was on a weekday when we had school.
23:54
So one friend who, like I said, let's, I want to take coffee on
23:59
your birthday. So we're walking to a restaurant
24:02
and we go to the restaurant and we go downstairs and my whole
24:04
class is there yelling surprise. And, and it was a surprise
24:07
breakfast party in a restaurant, you know, which is super cool.
24:11
Well, and it really touched me, right, because I felt seen and I
24:15
felt like they get me because for sometimes I didn't feel that
24:18
way. So I'm describing this to my
24:20
therapist. I said to my therapist, I said,
24:22
do you know what a calendar is? Because those don't, you know,
24:26
the words don't always translate, you know, English
24:28
American to to American English, whatever.
24:30
So she goes, yeah, like, you drain pasta through it.
24:33
And I said, yeah, I said I feel like, like I knew in that
24:38
moment, like I was connected to my classmates, but I didn't
24:42
always feel that. And I didn't know how to contain
24:44
that. Like where I could feel that all
24:45
the time. I had that moment of it and I I
24:48
really appreciated it and I loved feeling that.
24:51
But it felt like it ran through the colander, through the holes
24:56
and that line in that prayer that says fill in the bottom of
25:00
the well of my being with your rock of truth and security so
25:03
that as I am filled with being, I no longer leak so it doesn't
25:09
run out of the holes in the colander.
25:12
That's such a big deal. Yeah, yeah.
25:16
So I would hold that bear to my chest and pray that prayer every
25:22
day. And then, yeah.
25:25
And so much so that when I when I would travel, I was like, I'm
25:29
taking the bear, of course, because I got to keep praying
25:31
this prayer. Does the bear have a name by
25:33
now? It's just little me like you
25:36
know little. Christine.
25:37
Yeah, and I remember though, getting to the point where I was
25:42
going on a trip with somebody really dear to me, like a mom
25:46
figure, you know who I loved? She was coming to Europe and we
25:49
were going to go on a like a just a great vacation type of
25:53
thing. And I said to my therapist, I
25:55
said, you told me you were going to tell me if I was losing it.
26:00
I said, and I'm pretty sure I'm losing it because now I got to
26:04
take this bear with me on this trip.
26:06
And she goes, no, you're fine. You're fine.
26:08
I go. She goes, are you embarrassed
26:09
about the bear? I go, yeah, like what is what is
26:12
she going to say when she sees a bear?
26:14
And and you know, we're sharing a room.
26:16
This is. You said your mom.
26:18
Yeah, I said. She's a mom figure.
26:19
Oh, mom figure. Yeah, that we were going on a
26:21
vacation in Europe. Yeah.
26:23
Yeah. And I'm like, it was like a
26:24
tour, right? So like, we're sharing a room
26:26
and we're going on a tour with a tour group from a church, right.
26:30
And I'm like, how's this going to work?
26:31
I got to bring the bear, right? And I'm like, I, I felt like I'm
26:36
coming out of the closet here, you know, and.
26:39
As a bear loving, Yeah. As.
26:40
A yeah, as a weirdo. As a pretty much a weirdo.
26:44
And so I was crossed with my therapist, 'cause I said you
26:46
were gonna tell me if I was gonna, if I'm losing it.
26:48
And she's like, no, you're fine, you're fine.
26:49
So I brought the bear. I never said a word.
26:51
I just had this little bear in my bed and I just didn't say
26:54
anything. And I was just like hoping she'd
26:55
ever asked me. What's with the bear, you know?
26:58
Did she ever have any response to the bear?
27:00
She never said anything. And even when they, you know how
27:02
when you in a hotel room, like when people come and make your
27:05
bed, they always put the bear right in the middle, like after
27:07
they made it, they didn't like the bear was never thrown
27:09
around. You know what I mean?
27:10
It was just like. Place of honor.
27:11
Yeah. And I was just like, and it, it
27:14
was like probably a year after the trip, I told her what the
27:17
bear meant. Yeah.
27:18
Like I just couldn't talk about it at the time.
27:19
Yeah. Yeah, you were in the middle of.
27:21
It Oh, I was in it, Yeah. But I went that took that bear
27:24
everywhere, like for a while. That's so cool.
27:27
And because I was, that was me. Like engaging and connecting
27:33
with little me. And and learning to accept her.
27:37
Yeah. And then I was praying that
27:38
prayer everyday. And so it was kind of a little
27:41
thing I had going, you know, and so I was, I guess I was.
27:47
And you, you're the therapist. So you can, I mean, I'm not
27:49
looking for free therapy, whatever, because that's kind of
27:51
weird to do it on camera anyway. And you're you're my friend, so
27:55
you can't be my therapist. But I was just learning how to
27:59
be attuned to her. And is that called, wait, I'm
28:02
just going to ask this is it like self regulation what I'm
28:05
doing? So tell talk about what that is.
28:08
So affect regulation. We all affect regulate.
28:11
OK, but that's a fancy term, so you don't act like we all know
28:14
what you're talking about. South affect that's feelings.
28:17
That's a fancy word for feelings.
28:19
Regulation is just for keeping track of and controlling
28:22
containing your feelings. OK, so we're we all have to
28:26
find, you know, emotions like we're talking about they're
28:28
they're dangerous things. We all have to find ways of
28:31
dealing with and coping with those emotions.
28:33
OK, what did you just say? They're are, they're dangerous
28:35
things. Our emotions are dangerous.
28:37
Absolutely. Why?
28:38
Because they can take over, they can motivate us, we can find
28:41
ourselves doing things that we later regret.
28:44
Right. Like if you're in a fit of rage
28:45
or something. If you're in a fit of rage, if
28:47
you're yeah, yeah, all all of. These different things, our
28:49
feelings are important, but they're also dangerous.
28:51
Yes. So that doesn't sound good to
28:54
me. Just so you know.
28:55
Seriously. Yeah.
28:56
Good. Because who wants to be a
28:58
dangerous who? Wants to be walking around with
28:59
yeah. Yeah, so.
29:01
So then we have to learn. To we have to learn ways of
29:04
containing our emotions to use that power for good.
29:07
OK, now we're feeling like a superhero.
29:10
Yes, exactly. So talk to me more about.
29:12
Yeah, So we all in. So in general, what I, what I
29:16
tend to find when I'm working with my clients and especially
29:18
if they've experienced a lot of trauma and if they haven't had
29:23
like secure, safe, what we call attachment figures, people they
29:27
can rely on. If they don't have that, the way
29:30
that we learn to affect regulate is in very much penjulation.
29:34
It's either I shut the emotions down in the way and I go into
29:37
shame and fear. And anxiety.
29:39
Yep, or I'm acting them out and I'm externalizing them and we
29:43
tend to. So I'm either going to be a
29:46
crazy person or I'm shutting myself down.
29:48
So are you. We're trying to figure out the
29:49
middle ground of like, I feel the feeling and I'm not a crazy
29:53
person. Yes.
29:55
Yes, exactly where I can. I can feel my feeling and I can
29:58
express it, and I can be seen soothed, safe and secure.
30:03
OK. Did you make up the forest?
30:05
No, I didn't sound like a Baptist preacher, right?
30:07
Now seen soothed, safe and secure.
30:09
That's stolen from Dan Siegel. He's a he's a neuroscientist.
30:13
Kurt Thompson, another a Christian psychiatrist, uses
30:16
this a lot. It's what we all need in our
30:19
close, secure attachment relationships, like the people
30:22
that make us feel safe and make us feel good, that really
30:25
healing relationships. They have that quality where we
30:28
feel fully seen. We feel soothed, reassured in
30:32
that we feel safe and you know, we feel safe, accepted in that
30:36
and then secure. We can always come back to that
30:39
place and we can venture out in the world and we can be
30:41
adventurous and do everything that we got to do, OK.
30:44
And that's what helps us get to that place where we're not
30:46
pendulating in our in our affect regulation, but where we have
30:51
containment, where as I can, I can feel big feelings, but it's
30:55
going to be OK. Yeah.
30:57
And that's kind of what you were learning with your bear.
30:59
Well, and I also, I want to say that there was another figure in
31:04
this whole scenario for me, and that was so the bears little me,
31:09
right? There was also the critic.
31:11
Oh yeah, the critical voice in my head, which is.
31:14
She's important. Well, yeah, but she's a terrible
31:17
person, OK? She's not.
31:18
Well, whatever. I it's some kind of maladaptive
31:22
thing, I think, I'm sure. Because she's the person that is
31:26
pushing me to feel like I have to be perfect, to be lovable.
31:31
Yes, because in my home where there's domestic violence,
31:33
sexual abuse, verbal abuse, I'm trying to get love and there's
31:38
nothing to be had. I didn't know that I'm just
31:40
like. And so as a child, because we're
31:42
children are egocentric, right? Then I'm thinking if I could be
31:46
perfect, then I'll be lovable. But it's, it's on a very, it's
31:49
not a conscious thought, right. So I'm driven to succeed and
31:52
perform. So hopefully I'll be noticed.
31:54
So then when I'm not perfect, then I hate myself.
31:58
Not I don't I don't know about so much as a child child, but
32:01
like starting in junior high, I remember like my.
32:04
When you begin to get really self-conscious, when we, when
32:07
our observing ego, when we're fully aware, yeah, that happens
32:11
junior high, high school, where we start to get the neural
32:15
circuitry to actually be. Yeah, where we to actually be
32:19
self-conscious to have a a well developed sense of self.
32:23
OK. Yeah, an identity.
32:25
Now see, I would say I didn't have a well developed sense of
32:27
self. That's why I had to pray.
32:28
That sense of being prayer for like every day for, I don't
32:31
know, a couple years probably. But so in junior high when I got
32:34
my report card and there was times where it was all A's and
32:37
1B, which is respectable like in terms of grades, right?
32:41
I did not think it was respectable because it wasn't
32:43
perfect. So I would tell myself I was a
32:46
loser. I would say the critic in me was
32:49
saying you're a loser because it was, there was no like there's
32:52
no nuance with the critic. It's either perf, it's A or F.
32:56
It's not a minus. On off switch.
32:58
Yeah, So in therapy, my therapist trying to help me
33:03
figure out like the help me understand like these different
33:07
things that are going on. First of all, little me did not
33:10
have a voice. OK, so but the critic did.
33:13
And it was very much overdeveloped.
33:16
Like it was the thing that ran me.
33:18
I would say so. So we would do role plays.
33:23
She would say, OK, I want to speak to the critic.
33:26
Oh. Yeah.
33:27
Oh, you like her already? Yeah.
33:28
The therapist, not the critic. Yeah, so.
33:30
I like the critic too. But well, then you're weirder
33:33
than I thought, like I said. All right, So she would say.
33:35
And I always had to change seats on the role plays.
33:38
OK, I think this is gestalt. Is that right?
33:40
Yeah, Gestalt therapy uses, yeah, psychodrama kinds of
33:44
things. And yeah, you move around in the
33:45
room and it helps you, yeah. OK, so she would.
33:49
So I'd have to change seats and she'd say sit here, here and I
33:51
want to speak to the critic. So I remember the first time she
33:54
ever did that. She's like so kind of like kind
33:55
of figure trying to figure out how long you've been around, you
33:58
know, the critic. So, and I'm supposed to answer
34:00
from the critics perspective, right?
34:02
So she's like so hot. So and the critic is this was
34:05
oh, man, so cocky and like, oh, just not a likable person,
34:10
right? Thinks that that person, that
34:13
critic thinks they're the reason for my success because if I
34:16
don't push Christine, she's not going to succeed.
34:19
And so I'm the reason she's everything she is, right.
34:23
And how long you been around? Oh, I've been around.
34:25
You know, I remember it's just like snarky, you know, And it's
34:28
like, really. Yeah, you've been around.
34:29
OK, tell me a little bit about you.
34:30
Well, and I and I brought up the time in junior high, always one
34:34
beat saying Christine is a loser.
34:37
OK, so then I'd have to change seats.
34:40
So what the goal is in this particular season of life and
34:44
therapy was to for us. I didn't know this, but you
34:47
know, I learned this. My therapist was trained in CBT,
34:50
cognitive behavioral therapy and compassion focused therapy,
34:54
which I wasn't familiar with. And I have a master's in
34:56
counseling. I'm not a therapist like you,
34:58
but I do, I did study counseling.
35:01
So I never heard of it. So I looked into it and it's
35:04
something that a British therapist came up with.
35:07
It was a model he came up with and it's for people who have
35:09
high levels of shame and self criticism.
35:12
And I was like check, check. And, and it said it was
35:15
especially effective for people have like, and there were five
35:18
things like trauma, abuse, I don't know, neglect 5I was 5 out
35:24
of five. So I was like, oh, well, this
35:26
should be good for me, right? So, but the goal is to grow the
35:30
adult compassionate self. OK, so however, first time we
35:35
did a role play, role play, there is no adult compassion
35:38
itself. So she had to say, OK, can you
35:40
think of a person in your life that was for you, a voice of
35:43
compassion? I said yes, my 4th grade
35:46
teacher, she said tell me about your 4th grade.
35:48
Teacher out to Judith. Right.
35:50
Yeah, lovely person who who in 4th grade could tell, you know,
35:54
had a lot of potential, was bright, but definitely problems,
35:58
you know, at home or whatever, because I was just, I don't
36:01
know, she picked up on it and she like, she like, really took
36:04
me under her wing. Like in 4th grade one day she
36:06
took me after school to the ice cream parlor, just me and her.
36:10
Oh, so sweet. Yeah, and one time she came to
36:14
the Tennis Club where I, I, because I tennis was my and, and
36:17
played tennis with me one day, which I thought was the coolest
36:20
thing. Like, you know, and then even
36:23
like, as I got older, like I think junior high and high
36:26
school, sometimes I go spend the night at her house on the
36:28
weekend with her and her husband, you know.
36:30
And then in college, they had gotten a new house.
36:34
And her daughter, you know, there was a room for her
36:36
daughter. Her daughter had her own room.
36:37
And I remember the first time she ever took me to her house
36:39
and showed me the bedrooms and all that and said, this is your
36:41
room. And I was like, wow, I really
36:43
grabbed me. Yeah.
36:45
And so I actually live with them for a while when I was in
36:47
college. So she was just a a steady
36:50
presence in my lap. We're still friends to this day.
36:52
I go visit her when I'm home for Christmas, things like that.
36:56
So this so so when my therapist said, can you think of a person,
36:59
I said yes, Judith and my 4th grade teacher.
37:01
So, so I had to sit in different chair and speak from Judith's
37:06
perspective and say and ask Judith, what do you think of
37:10
Christine? Sweet.
37:12
And so Judith was like, man, I think she's doing amazing.
37:14
Course, the critic just said, I'm a total failure, right?
37:18
OK. And Judith's like, Nah, man.
37:20
She's like, because she's aware of all the overcoming that I've
37:24
had to do, right? So she can see the whole
37:28
perspective. Where's the critics?
37:29
Like, you suck because you're not perfect, you know?
37:33
And then we'd switch chairs and say, what does little you think?
37:37
And I'd have to speak from her. And she's like, she's always
37:40
like, she's so mean because she's talking about the critic.
37:42
Little me is talking about the critic going, she's so mean.
37:45
She's, you know, like, because, because it's like a child going
37:48
you're, you know, you're just not nice at all.
37:50
Like, why are you so mean to me, you know?
37:53
And then over time, and it didn't even take that long
37:55
before, like it was not Judith, it was me, the adult
37:59
compassionate person in the other chair.
38:01
We didn't do the role play every week, but we I was learning to
38:04
notice the voice of the critic, to develop, to unders, to hear
38:09
little me what she's thinking, what she's feeling, because
38:11
that's what we're talking about. Feelings are important, which I
38:13
didn't want them to be important.
38:15
I wanted to. Well, the critic didn't want
38:17
them to be important. OK, Yeah, because predicate
38:22
critic is just about completely cut off from emotions.
38:27
Yeah, Yeah. And I want to say this, you
38:29
know, I feel like my first ten years as a Christian really
38:37
taught me to draw a line right here between across my neck,
38:41
between my head and my heart, to divide my head and my heart.
38:44
So that when you, if you ask me, Hey, Christine, like I felt like
38:50
all my decisions were run through a filter of what does
38:52
God want from me? You know, like whether it's, you
38:56
know, what college am I going to go to?
38:58
Which obviously I would pray about a decision like that, but
39:01
like just not being in touch with my own feelings.
39:05
We're talking about feelings. I'm not in touch with them
39:07
because I'm always thinking, what does God want?
39:10
And Even so much to the point where it's like I lose myself.
39:13
And so if you said to me, hey, Christine, where do you want to
39:18
go for lunch today? I would look at you and think,
39:22
does Tim look like a salad? Does he look like a hamburger?
39:25
Like what? What does he look like a Taco?
39:27
Yeah, like not going. I am desperate for a Taco.
39:31
Yes, not tuning into yourself and huh, what do I?
39:33
Want not being aware of what I wanted.
39:35
Yeah. And so I didn't know how to be
39:40
in touch with that. So that was a journey of being
39:45
able to like listen to myself, you know, and I remember I was
39:54
going on a a trip to Montana. This is like an O2.
39:58
So this is a long time ago. I know I was talking more
40:00
recently about my therapist and little me.
40:02
But back then I went on my therapist want to be bringing a
40:04
list, a different therapist, the one in Miami, a list of what
40:08
what things do you want like in life?
40:10
And I was like, what it's the point of this exercise?
40:12
I thought it was dumb. OK, but whatever.
40:15
I guess I always think therapists are dumb.
40:16
And then you then you then you like do the exercise.
40:20
Then you talk about you're like, OK, there's some.
40:22
That makes sense. But you know, I was pretty
40:24
compliant, thankfully. So I did the exercise.
40:27
I come in with a list of like things I want.
40:28
So I give her the list, right? She's reading my list.
40:31
She's like a dog. She goes, you're going to get a
40:33
dog. I said no, I'm not going to get
40:34
a dog, even though the list is things I want.
40:37
I was like, I can't have a dog. I travel.
40:40
Yeah. So I would like dog sit for
40:42
everybody else, never have my own dog.
40:44
And then she's like another thing on the list.
40:47
Travel somewhere not for work. She goes, she goes, she reads it
40:52
to me. She's like, where would you go?
40:53
I don't know because I've never thought about where I'd go.
40:56
You're not thinking about what you want.
40:58
You're not tuned into that energy.
40:59
Yeah, so I didn't know how to do this.
41:01
So I go and I just go. I literally said I don't know.
41:04
Montana looks good in the movies.
41:06
Like, I didn't know, you know, So honest to God, the same day
41:12
I'm, I'm at home and a friend calls me and says, hey, do you
41:15
want to go for a walk? And by the way, it's the only
41:17
time in our friendship she's ever called me and said, you
41:19
want to go for a walk. So it's weird, right?
41:20
So I'm like, OK. Holy Spirit.
41:22
Yeah, OK, fine. Holy Spirit.
41:24
So we're walking in her neighborhood.
41:26
Her husband and me and her parents were in town, and they
41:29
were like walking too, but they weren't right with us, right?
41:32
So the three of us are talking, and I'm just talking, right?
41:36
I had therapy that day, and I said Montana looks good in the
41:38
movie. So I said to her, I'm thinking
41:40
about going to Montana, and she goes, really?
41:43
I said, yeah, she goes, where would you go?
41:44
I said, I have no idea. I said, I have this one friend
41:46
who lives there, and I get a birthday, a Christmas card from
41:50
her. I don't know where she lives,
41:51
but I know she lives in Montana. She said, well, my parents live
41:55
in Montana and they're in Missoula.
41:57
So she said, yeah, I know, right in Missoula.
42:02
So she goes, if you go to Missoula, they'll help you
42:04
organize an itinerary. So I'm like, OK, cool.
42:07
So I go home. I dig out this Christmas card
42:09
and I lo and behold, my friend lives in Missoula.
42:13
So I call her and I say it's Missoula.
42:15
And she goes, oh, OK. So yeah, if you go to Missoula,
42:18
like my parents can help because there's so many cool things to
42:20
see in Montana, right? So I, I call my friend and I
42:23
ended up going, I call her to say I want to come to Missoula
42:26
this summer. And she's like, oh, and she
42:27
tells me we're going away. So then I'm like, hey, can I
42:31
stay in your house? You know, So I got to, I got the
42:33
house, sit in Missoula for two weeks and even use their car,
42:36
which was great. So it was a good cheap vacation.
42:38
Well, my therapist said was I want you to do whatever you want
42:42
to do. I was like, she goes because I'm
42:45
going away for two weeks in Montana.
42:46
And she's like, if you want to take a nap, take a nap.
42:48
If you want to rent a movie, rent a movie.
42:49
Critic doesn't like that. Do what you want.
42:51
I mean, at this point I'm not thinking about the critic.
42:53
I'm just like, like she's trying to get me to like, just know
42:59
what I want. Right, she's inviting you,
43:02
giving you permission. Yes, permission because here's
43:04
the thing, like you got a pendulum, right?
43:07
And you're like one end is what does God want me to do?
43:10
OK, which is everything filtered through my head.
43:13
She's trying to get get me to drop down into here to know what
43:15
I want. And so the way this is how I
43:19
feel like it went was we swing all the way over here to like,
43:22
what do you want? So yeah, I want to go white
43:24
water rafting. I went white water rafting.
43:25
I rented a movie. I, you know, took a nap or
43:28
whatever. I did what I want, but then you
43:30
don't really want to stay here. So what you do is went from
43:34
like, what does God want? Which I do care about what God
43:37
wants. I'm not trying to say this
43:38
wasn't about that, but it's like being in touch with what are my
43:41
own likes and dislikes. Like what if I want to go to
43:44
tacos for lunch and you know, he looks like a salad.
43:48
What do I do? We can negotiate, you know, find
43:50
a place that has tacos and salad, but and then so you bring
43:54
the pendulum from from from what does God want to what do I want?
43:58
And then and then it comes and settles in the middle.
44:00
So then you can be like, I'm not this spiritual automaton that
44:04
every decision is God wants me to have tacos for lunch today.
44:09
So I guess for me, my my journey to my feelings first was that
44:13
season of learning like what do I want?
44:16
And then later, because the critic, I didn't know, I was so
44:21
used to that voice. Didn't even know that that was.
44:24
Well, I didn't know you can reckon with it.
44:26
I was like, I was just, it was ripping me to shreds all the
44:29
time for whatever I did that wasn't as a high enough standard
44:34
for a Christian or wasn't perfect or whatever.
44:37
So I was used to it and I thought I mean, I didn't ever
44:40
think about like I never thought about little me ever.
44:45
So this journey to like validate little me and to listen to her
44:51
needs was a profound healing experience.
44:54
In fact, I think that's why God took me out of my own country to
44:58
school. It was to work with a compassion
45:00
focused therapist to teach me how to be compassionate to
45:03
myself and to learn how to know what my own needs were and
45:06
validate my own feelings and self regulate because I always
45:10
went I couldn't. I didn't know how to go to
45:12
sadness. I would go to anger because
45:14
anger made me feel powerful. And if somebody's being abused,
45:18
I felt powerless growing up. I don't want to feel powerless.
45:21
I want to feel powerful, Yes. So for me, I mean, this is my
45:25
journey to my feelings being important.
45:29
But also I don't want to sound like, and I don't know if I
45:32
sound like any of this journey is devoid of God because it's
45:36
not just about. Yeah, OK.
45:38
Well, yeah, I mean, as you're talking about that, you were
45:40
saying this earlier about what's God's will, what's God's will?
45:43
And it's like, well, you're created in God's image, like the
45:47
Holy Spirit dwells in you. Those things that you want even
45:51
down to, you know, tacos versus salad, OK?
45:56
Even that in some way, shape or form reflects his image like
46:01
that. In other words, when you're
46:03
tuning into what you want, that's not the opposite of
46:08
looking for God's will. That's just, hey, something that
46:12
he placed in you. Like a love for tacos.
46:16
Yeah. OK, well, I, I mean, OK, I just,
46:20
you know, I, I kind of feel like I know in some circles of
46:23
Christendom there's pushback because it's Oh yeah, because
46:25
it's not, it's about like. They're suspicious of anything
46:28
I. Was of de emphasizing yourself
46:30
and here's the thing I grew up with self in my faith.
46:33
I grew up with self being a four letter word, right, just another
46:36
4 letter word and so in in trying to discard myself.
46:39
Yep, like you know that I don't know if you've heard this one,
46:42
that the acronym for Joy is Jesus, others, you, your last.
46:47
Yep, Yep, I grew up with that too.
46:49
So like it's about not like giving self like because if you
46:54
give in to the self, then what? I don't know, but it's going to
46:57
lead to sin probably. Yeah, yeah.
46:59
You can't trust anything in yourself.
47:03
Yeah. Yeah, they'll quote Jeremiah 17.
47:05
You're always desperately wicked.
47:07
Yes, and it makes it and it makes it really simple like it
47:10
makes sense. I don't you know, I don't want
47:12
to just dog on you know that that way of thinking among
47:16
Christians like it makes sense because it simplifies things.
47:20
Just hold everything that you feel in suspicion.
47:24
You know, everything is looking in God's word and often times
47:28
you know what what wasn't said is, you know, pastoral authority
47:32
like you take everything from out there.
47:34
You don't. You don't pay attention to
47:36
anything going on. Here, But that's what I learned
47:39
and then had to unlearn. I said to this friend, I was
47:41
having lunch with a friend in Miami and I'm talking to her and
47:44
I said, what do you doing this weekend?
47:46
And she goes, I'm going to a sacred romance women's retreat,
47:49
which that's a book by John Eldridge.
47:52
And I had read the book. I'd done it in a women's Bible
47:54
study. And I go and I go, it's like I
47:55
took an audible breath. I go like that sounded amazing.
47:59
She was you want to go? And everything in me wanted to
48:02
go. I was like, yes, but I, I was
48:05
like, I can't go because I was going to be traveling the
48:07
following week and I was like, I need to stay home and do laundry
48:10
like normal people do, right. And I remember just like really
48:14
struggling with, I really want to go to this and but I need to
48:17
do laundry. I don't know why I thought like
48:20
that was mutually exclusive, but I remember going to work the
48:22
next day because I worked for a ministry and there was a lady
48:26
who worked for a, a, a like I, my office was just me, but then
48:32
the only office for my ministry. But then they're all these other
48:34
offices. And so this lady worked for a
48:35
different ministry, but she was really cool and I liked her.
48:37
So I went and sat in her office. I was talking about this dilemma
48:40
of like, I should stay home, but I really want to go the sacred
48:42
women, romance women. She's like, go, I'm like,
48:45
really? You think so?
48:47
And I went and it was so huge, like in terms of some of the
48:51
huge like Aha's. And I remember coming back to
48:55
therapy, therapy and telling my therapist about this conference
48:59
and she said, see, God is in your gut because I listened to
49:03
my gut and I went to this retreat and it I felt like some
49:07
of the things she and I have been talking about in therapy
49:10
that was up against that I was trying to work through like my
49:12
own, some of my own self age hatred was some of that was
49:16
unlocked at this conference. And so she's like, see, like you
49:19
wanted to go and, and, and you went and God was there and he
49:23
and he met you there. It wasn't like, no, we're just
49:26
going to disregard yourself and like do the sensible thing.
49:31
You know what I mean? So she, I guess my therapist,
49:35
the journey was learning like to I guess, trust myself.
49:38
Yeah, begin to trust what I want, yeah.
49:42
Yeah, yeah, which was a huge journey for.
49:44
Me huge journey and then yeah. And it sounds like it came in
49:47
stages. There was that initial therapist
49:49
helping you connect with just what you want.
49:52
And then later on there's the the therapist that.
49:55
Yeah, hey, these really emotional, you know, strong
49:59
feeling parts of you that at times feel dangerous because
50:02
they're so hey, they're important.
50:04
You need to pay attention to those, to those big emotion
50:08
parts of. You yes, so so I mean this is AI
50:12
know I've shared a lot, but it's like my journey to I guess,
50:17
allowing myself to feel my feelings and and not criticize
50:20
myself for my feelings. And I think a lot of the church,
50:24
sadly, because me I said that self is a four letter word.
50:29
So me trying to deny myself led to like self hatred.
50:33
Really self criticism is self hatred and I just think I'm
50:38
grieved. Like I don't think Chris, as
50:40
Christians we should hate ourselves for like for not being
50:42
perfect or whatever because Jesus doesn't expect me to be
50:45
perfect. He died because I'm imperfect
50:47
and I needed a perfect savior. Yeah, it just we don't, we
50:50
shouldn't hate ourselves. Yeah.
50:53
Like what I'm feeling, what I'm wanting is just that.
50:56
And yeah, that needs to be in conversation with the Lord and
50:59
with other believers. And if there is conflict in
51:02
there, yeah, we look at that, we examine that part of part of the
51:06
thinking. Or is there there's that end
51:08
goal. You want to get to that, you
51:09
know, Christ like perfection, you know, whatever that is,
51:13
Yeah. We're not going to get there in
51:14
this. Lifetime.
51:15
But yeah, exactly. We're not going to get there in
51:17
this lifetime as if we could know exactly what that is.
51:21
OK. And that's not the way it is.
51:23
It's, it's, it's a long, it's a lifelong, evidently, maybe even
51:27
an eternity long process. You know, where we are, we are
51:32
growing more and more and more after the image of Christ.
51:35
So yeah, that's, that's not something that you're just going
51:38
to, you're going to jump to right away.
51:40
And yeah, you have to start with where you are.
51:43
And yeah, that's what these therapists were allowing you to.
51:45
Do it's really beautiful. So I guess there's a plug for
51:48
therapy. Yeah, of course, that's part of
51:50
this. Well, it's a plug for what
51:53
therapy brings it. That's, you know, because I, I
51:57
think, yeah, I as a therapist, I and I tell pastors this all the
52:00
time. I really do want to work myself
52:03
out of a job. Nice.
52:05
You know, with all of my clients and my hope and my goal would
52:09
be, you know, as we're doing this work, like in 100 years,
52:13
that we won't need therapy, at least not in the way that we
52:16
need it now. OK.
52:17
OK. That there will be the spaces
52:20
where people can say, yeah, what you want is important.
52:24
Let's slow down into what you want.
52:26
Let's. Hey, those that grief, that
52:29
pain, that fear that you have that little child inside of you
52:32
that's screaming, yeah. Can we can we spend some time
52:35
with them? That's actually important.
52:37
That's something that doesn't have to happen in therapy.
52:41
Like that's something that I mean, in in a healthy family.
52:44
And there are such things, you know, healthy families with
52:48
secure attachments. That's what the kids have.
52:51
They have parents that are saying, hey, what you want, what
52:54
you're feeling, where you're going.
52:55
That's important. Let's tune into that.
52:58
And as believers, we're supposed to be a family of faith.
53:01
We're supposed to be brothers and sisters in Christ, fathers
53:04
and and and mothers in Christ, like we're supposed to be that
53:08
family for one another that provides that space.
53:11
So right now, just in the particular way our culture's
53:15
jacked up, all all cultures are jacked up all the way through
53:18
history is we don't have that dynamic very well.
53:22
And so therapy is kind of filling a hole there.
53:24
But hopefully over time, and as we're having this interaction,
53:29
like, yeah, the church will begin to start to take on some
53:34
of those roles. That would be amazing.
53:35
Yeah. Yeah, I'd love that.
53:37
I'd love that too.