Latest / The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show / Episode 26, Season 2: Inside the Pain of the Fearful Avoidant

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Episode 26, Season 2: Inside the Pain of the Fearful Avoidant · The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show

• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Love Dog Podcast.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: I'm your co Hostriena Butcher, here with our host, the
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: founder and CEO of the Love Doc relationship coaching services,
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: doctor Sarah Hinsley.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Hey, Hey, what's up?
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: Oh, not much. I have leather pants on.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: I know Ramler, I know.
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: Every time my move is like and I just it
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: just makes me think of Ross galler Don and I
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: were laughing so hard about like the Lotion and the
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: Power and Favorite.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: It's one of my favorite episodes, so hilarious.
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: We are such huge friends fans, We're so nerdy with
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: that show, and we have so many but you're the
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: only person I have in my life that gets it.
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: Like I'll say something and you'll laugh because you'll know
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: where it came from.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: I can relate pretty much any circumstance in life to
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: a friend's episode, you know, and everybody kind of has that,
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: Like Josh. He can relate anything in life to like
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: a Simpsons of episode yeah, or Seinfeld.
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: Yes, Oh my gosh, Donald Love Seinfeld.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: And when I used to teach psych one oh one
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: at Maria College many many years ago, I would introduce
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: every class with a clip of friends that somehow matched
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: the topic. Of what we were talking about that day.
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: So whatever psychological theory, I could somehow find it within
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: friends and it was it was funny. I think the
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: students really enjoyed it.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: I love that I didn't know, see, I learned something
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: new about you every time I do the podcast.
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: I know, because we never get to hang out outside
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: of work.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: No I know, I know.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: But something we do know about each other is that
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: we're both former fas, and so today we are going
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: to talk about the pain of the FA. Yes that
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: that we're very that we're both very familiar with the pain.
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: Of the fearful avoidance. Since we did an episode on
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: the pain of the dismissive avoidant, I don't want to
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: leave the other two attachment styles out. So today's episode
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: is going to be on the pain of the fearful avoidant,
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: which is very dynamic pain because it comes in a
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: lot of different facets. For the FA, the FA has
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: the most pain of all attachment styles because they had
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: the most significant childhood trauma. So just to dig back
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: in to the FA in general, we did an episode
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: on the FA I think in season one, so a
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: lot of our listeners may not have backtracked and listened
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: to that episode, So let's just do a quick summary.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: It's always helpful, Yeah, it is.
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: The fearful avoidant has childhood trauma. Most of the time,
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: it's big TA childhood trauma. So the most common ones
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: that I see in my practice are abandonment of a parent.
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: So it might be that parents split up in childhood
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: and maybe dad just went away, moved to a different
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: state or something like that, or maybe one of the
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: parents just wasn't in the child's life at all, or
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: very very minimally death of a parent in childhood. Exposure
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: to abuse that occurred inside or outside of the home.
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: Most of the time it was inside of the home.
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: Sometimes there's sexual abuse outside of the home. A parent
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: with a substance abuse disorder that obviously created a lot
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: of dysfunction in the family, a parent with a mental
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: illness that created dysfunction in the family. Those are sort
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: of the big ones that I see. So the bigger
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: the trauma and the longer the trauma goes on, the
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: more severe the fearful avoidance. There's this direct correlation between that.
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: So we do see smaller T traumas or what we
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: call little T traumas that can create fearful avoidance. The
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: ones that I see are someone maybe who experienced some
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: very significant bullying in school and parents just didn't handle
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: it very well, or a family like maybe a military
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: family that had to move around a lot. I had
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: somebody the other day who went to seventeen different schools.
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: Seventeen different schools in their childhood. You can't ever really
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: form real you can't form friendship, and so there's no
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: sense of stability, and no sense of stability within the
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: family unit either, because you're constantly picking up and moving,
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: and so that can be a significant trauma. It's a
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: little er T trauma. It's not the same as you
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: know abuse, but it can cause enough instability that you know,
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: trust within the safety of your home and in your
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: family unit is disrupted.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so.
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  Speaker 3: What happens when you have this type of trauma, Well,
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: the child looks at the dysfunctional parent or parents. And
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  Speaker 3: I should mention another big T trauma is when the
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: parental unit is somehow very dysfunctional, so fight a lot
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: of really bad fighting. This is where like some of
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: the abuse stuff can come in, where maybe there's domestic
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: violence or just a lot of verbal abuse. Maybe kids
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: are really caught in the middle, and there's a nasty
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: divorce that can end up being a pretty big tea
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: trauma as well. You look at those parents and you go, yeah,
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: you can't love me in a way that feels good.
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: You're not capable, you have too much of your own crap.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: And this is the subconscious.
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: This is the subconscious of the fearful avoidant, for sure.
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: And then what gets imprinted into the subconscious mind is betrayal.
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: Will you betrayed me by not loving me as my
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: parent because you're supposed to love me as my parents.
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: So even little children, if you ask a child, and
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: I've said this before but we'll repeat it. Whatever, if
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: you ask a little child, like go up to a
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: three year old and go what is a family? And
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: they'll usually say it's a mommy and a daddy and
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: a baby, and the mommy and daddy love each other
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: and they love the baby. They'll say something like that,
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: and that's called a schema. A schema is sort of
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: an idea of how something is supposed to look or
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: how something is supposed to go. And so when that
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: schema that we get from a lot from culture does
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: not really match what we see in our family. It
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: feels like a betrayal. I don't think my husband would
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: care if I shared this, but he said, you know,
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: I used to watch like the Andy Griffith Show, and
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: I used to get really sad because his dad wasn't
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: in his life. He saw his dad like once, maybe
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: twice a year. His dad was just absent, and he
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: would say, I just wanted that so much. I wanted
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: that family, that mom and that dad, and just that
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: family unit. And I was so dedicated to the idea
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: that someday when I had kids, I was going to
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: be there for my kids. And I was never going
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: to abandon my kids the way my dad abandoned me.
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: And so when children have these experiences, and for me,
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: it was a dysfunctional, mentally ill father. My father was
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: very mentally ill, and his mental illness affected how he
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: treated us. Obviously, he was kind of unpredictable rage then
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: he would check out. He was bipolar yea. So it
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: was a lot of It was a lot of roller
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: coaster and I had a lot of that too. Yeah,
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: And he couldn't hold a job, so there was a
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: lot of instability financially for my family. You look at
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: this caregiver, and you're like, if you can't love me
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: in a way that feels good, whoever could? Because you're
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: supposed to love me. You're my daddy, you're supposed to
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: love me. And then so there's this betrayal wound of
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: like you've betrayed me by not loving me. And because
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: the dysfunction is so painful, love gets intertwined with pain
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: in the subconscious so love and pain kind of become enmeshed.
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: It's like love and pain are the different sides of
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: the same coin.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes me want to cry.
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: I know it's it's very sad. It is very sad.
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: And the people that I talked to with fear full
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: avoid and attachment have deeply traumatic childhoods. Some of the
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: things I hear I'm getting right now just because my
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: nervous system is sort of responding to what I'm thinking
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: about right now. I can't even fathom being a children
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: and some of these homes that I hear about, I
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: hear about unconscionable things, and I think about my children,
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: and I think about, especially my oldest daughter, what her
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: dad put us through from the beginning to his death,
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: and I get incredibly sad. And she gets incredibly sad
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: and we work through it, but the pain is so immense.
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: And I think that parents are so caught up in
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: their stress and their dysfunction and the mental illness or
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: their substance abuse or whatever it is, their bad marriage,
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: and they just can't seem to deeply realize how much
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: it's going to affect their children and their children's future happiness.
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: Because off who we marry is the biggest predictor of
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: our happiness and success life. You're setting them up for
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: failure when you create that environment. And that's why sometimes
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: it divorce is the right answer, unfortunately, because parents need
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: at least one secure caregiver, and you might not be
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: able to earn your security inside of an extremely dysfunctional marriage.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: I know I was a way better parent once.
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: I left, way better parent, and I am the best
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: parent now that I am in a healthy relationship, sure,
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: the best version of myself. And I'm so thankful for
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: my husband. But these children that come from these families,
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: forever rooted in their subconscious is this, well, I won't
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: say forever until they do the work. Is this idea
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: that love is pain and pain is love. And of
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: course if the subconscious believes that love is pain. You
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: will either seek out someone that creates pain for you
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: to love of, or you will create the pain in
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: the relationship. Usually it's a combination of both. You're seeking
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: out someone who will betray you, and you will betray
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: yourself over and over again. Inside of that relationship, you
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: create betrayal, or you will create exists betrayal where betrayal
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: does not exist. So the filter of the fearful avoidant
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: is one of betrayal. And what does that mean. It
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: just means that we all have a filter based on
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: our attachment style for how we view our partner, ourselves,
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: and our relationship. So if your filter is betrayal, you
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: are biased toward seeing the betrayals in your relationship. And
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: a lot of people think betrayal means just cheating. It
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: does not. For a fearful avoidant, their deepest need is
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: to be understood because they never felt seen by their caregivers.
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: The caregivers were so caught up in the dysfunction they
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: couldn't attune to their tale properly. They were a tuning dysfunctionally.
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: If they were a tuning with too much anger or
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: frustration or misatuning, not a tuning at all, and so
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: we can have some inconsistent reinforcement there. And we've talked
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: about that principle a lot and how it creates anxiety
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: and addiction as well as emotional neglect. So it's this
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: mix that's why they end up with both attachment anxiety
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: and attachment avoidance. Because think about how somebody who say
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: is an alcoholic might treat their children. They might have
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: moments where they're sort of like getting buzzed and they're happy,
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: and then they're like oui guey, attuning to their children
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: and being really soft and loving and fun, and then
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: they get drunk and then they get mean, and then
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: they come down, and then they come down hard or
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: they pass out and they're absent. So we have this
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: mix of intermittent reinforcement where sometimes the need is met,
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: coupled with neglect, coupled with emotional trauma, and that creates
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: an extorm a very chaotic nervous system, a very chaotic
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: inner world. Yeah, and the inner world a fearful avoidance
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: is extremely chaotic. Their inner world is a rollercoaster. It
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: also creates not just the capacity for having anxious attachment
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: and avoidant attachment and the ability to flip flop from
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: being anxious and avoidant in any given moment. Fearful avoidance.
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: This is interesting. Let's dive into this first. They have
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: this anxious side, they have this avoidant side, but they
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: tend to have like a home base, so they tend
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: to sort of be more on the anxious side or
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: more on the avoidant side, but they react in opposition
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: to partner. So essentially they're trying to get as much
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: connection as possible while avoiding as much pain as possible.
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: And that's really difficult to do.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: It sounds like quite the paradox it is, Yeah.
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: Because to mean pain connection you have to move through
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: painful points in your relationship. Conflict creates intimacy, and especially
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: when yeah and pain, but if it's done right, if
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: you repair it correctly, it builds more trust. It creates
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: more intimate deeper intimacy for sure. So the fearful avoidant
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: is trying to do this dance where it's like I
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: want to really have you and I want to have
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: this deep connection, but the moment that I sense that
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: there might be betrayal, I can really pull back. But
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: then once there's too much space, I might get anxious
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: again and come back. My pattern and what I would
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: do over and over and over and over again in
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: relationships was I would get hurt where I would feel overwhelmed,
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: which are two very avoidant, you know, experiences, And I
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: would break up with somebody very abruptly, and then give
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: me a few days, and I would be an anxious mess,
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: completely regretting my decision, begging them to come back. And then,
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: of course, once you break up with somebody, the trust
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: is broken. They can't trust you if you just break
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: up with them on a dime. And then when they wouldn't,
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: if they wouldn't take me back, then I would just
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: ruminate and I would be anxious and I would be devastated,
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: and then I would try to band aid it with
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: just trying to find a new partner as quickly.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: As possible, or i'd get really reactive.
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yeah. Usually I was reactive in the breakup,
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: very reactive. So sorry to all my past partners, but
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: in all honesty, I wasn't choosing healthy people either, and
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: that is that is a trade of fearful avoidance. You're
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: going to choose someone who will create the pain that
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: you felt in childhood and the chaos fearful avoidance are
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: very likely to end up with narcissistic people, or very
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: highly avoidant people, or highly anxious people, people on the
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: far ends of the insecure spectrum, or another fearful avoidant, right,
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: And we can go over what those different combinations look
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: like in just a bit. But the fearful avoidant, like
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: I said, they're trying to maximize connection and minimize pain.
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: And so they do this dance where they come close
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: and then they push away. And they might be more
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: anxious where they tend to come close more than they
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: push away. Where they may be more avoidant where they
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: push away more than they come close. But they tend
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: to react in opposition to partner. So if a fearful
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: avoidant is with an anxious, preoccupied partner, they will push
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: further into avoidance. They will become more DA like, more
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: dismissive avoidant like in their behavior, even though it underlies
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: their avoidance is different than the dismissive. If a fearful
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: avoidance is with a dismissive avoidant partner, they will push
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: very anxious in the relationship. So they sort of act
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: in opposition. And so I tended to choose narcissists and das.
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: My whole relationship history was like narc DA, narc DA,
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: narc DA and fearful avoidance. It's very common to go
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: from a narcissist to a DA. I see that so much.
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: I need to make another video about that, because when
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: I did it, it did really well. Because I think it's
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: a very common experience.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: My pattern was a little bit different.
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: I was mostly maybe with like another FA thrown in
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: there every once in a while.
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you had one DA thrown in there, maybe two maybe,
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: oh yeah, two. Yeah. My very first romantic relationship was
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: with someone who was highly narcissistic, highly narcissistic. And I
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: think that that early relationship experience when I was a
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: teenager very much set me up and confirmed my betrayal
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: wound and set me up for future narcissistic relationships. So unfortunately,
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: our wounds become a self fulfilling prophecy. If you believe
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: you're gonna be betrayed, You're gonna find somebody that's gonna
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: betray you. I promise you. Right, We've said that, but
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: I've lived that.
• 17:09
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  Speaker 1: Cozier.
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: The subconscious unfortunately desires to have its beliefs confirmed. That's
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: how the brain works. The brain it's called the confirmation bias,
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: and the confirmation bias is very interesting and a lot
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: of people have heard this term, but they don't really
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: understand what it means.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I explain it.
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: The confirmation bias is this idea, and it's a very
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: prevalent human bias across nearly all humans in existence because
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: it's a product of how the brain functions for efficiency.
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: Is that we will seek out information that confirms our beliefs,
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: and we will disregard, tune out, ignore, or downplay information
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: that does not confirm our beliefs because it feels good
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: to be thatvalidated. Right. This is why chatchept is so
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: dangerous because it's programmed to validate.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, be careful with the AI because it'll validate, validate, validation.
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: And the people that created it know that. You can
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: ask chatchept if it's designed to validate you, it will
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: tell you it is. And that's that's a dangerous thing.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: You're you're living in your own personal echo chamber. So
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: this really relates to that betrayal filter where when you
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: look at your relationship instead of sort of seeing what's
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: good about it, or seeing your partner's behavior from a
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: more objective lens. Fearful avoidance. Always assume their partner has
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: the absolute most malicious, worst intent in everything they do,
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: like you did that to hurt me.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: I still struggle with this.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but inside my marriage, we were talking about it
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: before the show, and it's because I was looking at
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: some of your content this morning and you know, filtering
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: through some of it, and one of them was, you know,
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: the behaviors of the FA. There's still so many small
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: little nuances that I see, even inside my marriage, that
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: I have to catch in correct.
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: Yes, And that's what security is about. It is you'll
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: get it right a lot of the time, but there
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: are going to be times where you backslide and catch
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: it correct. I will be very vulnerable with my audience.
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: I am an expert in this. I've lived it, I
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: teach it. It is my life. And I did a
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: very FA thing, not yesterday but the day before. So
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: it's going to a little it's going to a little
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: sad story. God bless my husband. I love him so much.
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: He loves golf. I love golf. We both love golf,
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: but unfortunately I don't I'm not as good at golf
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: as he is, and I just don't have time to
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: golf as much as he does. He's a stay at
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: home dad, which I I'm the one that asked him
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: to close his contracting business. He's a retired veteran, so
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: he does have a very nice retirement. God bless the
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: USA and our veterans and thanking them for their service.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: But he could have been a very very and was
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: a very successful contractor and had his own business, And
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: I asked him if he would mind to shut that
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: down and simply support me through the because my business
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: was growing so rapidly. I mean, you've seen it. You
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: were there, that our family with four children can't sustain
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: both of us working. And luck I'm blessed enough that
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: this business brings in enough income for and he has
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: retirement benefits that he gets that that was possible. So
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: he was golfing, and it was on one of my
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: long coaching days. And I'm having this back issue right
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: now and sitting definitely exacerbates it. So I was in
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: a lot of pain, and I don't want to make excuses.
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: I sound like I'm minimizing it. Not excuses, just background.
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: And I was hungry and I was rumpy, and he
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: looked at the calendar wrong, so he looked at Monday
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: instead of Tuesday. So we have this skylight calendar, that
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: huge calendar that hangs on our wall and everybody sees
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: stuff is in it because we couldn't function without it.
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: So he's done golfing and he looks at the calendar
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: and he's like, oh, she's not got a client right now,
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: so she'll call me when she's got time. He didn't
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: hear from me, so he calls me, well, I'm with
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: a client because he's looking at the wrong day. So
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: he's thinking, I'm just not answering, and he's like, well,
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: she'll call me back when she can. You know, she's
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: not that busy. She's got a lighter load today. She's
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: not that busy. Well, so then he decides to go
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: to Brett's house, which is your husband's really good friend.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And.
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: I would have preferred if he would have shot me
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: a text and just said, hey, I'm going to Brett's house.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll be home.
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: You know after five, I'll cook dinner, dinner, sys thing
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: I can't cook. I can cook, I just don't enjoy it.
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: He cooks and where he was just assuming that, like
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: I was going to call him back. You know, I
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: couldn't call him back because I was with clients. I
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: couldn't pick up the phone and call him back. So
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: at five o'clock came around, I'm like, where in the
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: heck are you? Golf should have been over it like
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: two yeah, And I'm like, you called me, you know
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: I'm with clients, Like what the heck? So, okay, this
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: is the fa You should know me. You should have
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: known my schedule. You should know exactly that. If you
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: didn't get a hold of me, you should better be
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: sending me a text because we communicate. I can look
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: on Life three sixty. I know where the man's at, right,
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: but I got very grumpy about that. Well, if you
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: couldn't reach me, you should have sent me a text.
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: So he comes home and then he gets on Richmond
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: Road traffic with his stalled car. It takes in like
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: an hour and a half to go four miles on
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: Richmond Road. So he comes home. You can imagine the
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: mood he's in after being Yeah, Lexington traffic guys is
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: like it's worth renovs. It's so bad and there's always
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: construction and so he's in his grumpy mode and I'm
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: in my grumpy mode. Strong fight response, so fearful avoidance
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: have a very strong fight trauma response, which is I
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: need you to desperately understand me. That's my greatest need,
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: and they will just bear me and we will fight
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: for it, fight for our position, for our reality.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: Double down, triple down, triple down.
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: Where have you been? And he's like, I sent you
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: a text saying I was in traffic and I was like, no,
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: but where were you before that? And he's like, I
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: stopped by Brett's. I tried to call you and let
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: you know, but you didn't answer. I wasn't sure why
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: you called me back. And I'm like, you know, I'm
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: with clients. He's like, you had a light load today.
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: He's like, I looked at the calendar and he pulls
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: out his phone and I'm like, you were looking at
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: Monday and I was just being a little too overly reactive.
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: I was, but I started to notice it and I
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: started to back down and I was like, Okay, I'm
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: getting upset right, let me cool my jets a minute.
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: So it was a catch and correct situation. I started
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: into that big fight response and I noticed it in
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: my chest, and I noticed my body, and I brought
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: myself back down. But I still did a very fa
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: thing even after that, Okay, which was there were these
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: tiny little moments of misattunement in the past week because
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: we have been incredibly busy with our children cheer comp
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: We have two and cheerleaders. And if you have a
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: competition cheerleader, it is life. It is every day, it
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: is every weekend. It is money, it is time, it
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: is you eat and breathe it. And I have two
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: girls that are in different ones, in high school ones.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: And yeah, there's seven years apart, and makes six years apart.
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but of course, you know, the different competition schedules
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: makes it hard. Our son, our step son, my step son,
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: his son isn't wrestling, you know, Lily's got her sports
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: going on, and so we are just exhausted. And it
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: had been one of those weeks. And so what did
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: I do. I looked back through my FA filter instead
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: of using my tools to look through my objective filter,
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: and I looked back through my FA filter and I
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: took all of these micro moments where I was a
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: little irked, maybe like three different moments, like when you
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: didn't want to go to the gym with me and
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: you played video games or when this happened or when
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: that happened, And I was like, I felt very abandoned
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: this week, and that was part of my French bullshit.
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah so far from so far from true. Yeah, but
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: I catastrophized. And so the fas will you ruminated catastrophize.
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: They will overgeneralize, they will think in black and white,
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: and they will ruminate, and they will ruminate, they'll add.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: They'll add layers to the stuff that's already happening, which
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: is basically what you.
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: Did and what I did. And then I made myself
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: the pressure cooker, which was instead.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: That's a victim and a victim yes.
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: And so instead of in those micro moments me actually
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: just speaking my truth, I was too exhausted and I
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: just told myself that's not a big deal. Instead of
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: being like, okay, like I'm fine if you don't want
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: to go to the gym, but can we do something?
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: After I didn't say that, I was like, well, I'm
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: just going to go run errands. So Donald was like,
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: I love you, baby, but I need you to ask
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: yourself a question I needed to ask yourself. Are these
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: decisions you made or are these decisions I made that
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: are making you unhappy right now? He's like, look back
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: at those moments you're bringing up. Are those decisions you made?
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: Because you didn't say, hey, let's do something after I
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: would have been like, absolutely, okay, let's do that. Yeah,
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: But I thought you wanted to run your errands by yourself,
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: so I played video games. Had I known you wanted
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: to spend some time with me, absolutely would have been
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: on board.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: But you were expecting him to read your mind.
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: I was expecting him to read my mind, and I
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: and I I I didn't speak my truth in the moment,
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: which I have gotten good at doing as being a
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: secure person. But your nervous system is a gas tank.
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: It's a muscle. But there's also the gas tank analogy,
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: and nervous system researchers kind of use these two analogies
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: in parallel. When outside stressors start taking gas from your tank,
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: there's not as much self regulatory power to show up secure,
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: right because secure attachment is based upon the idea of
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: nervous system self regulation. So my self regulation gas tank
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: was very low, So I didn't show up secure in
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: those moments which instead of minimizing my need and blowing
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: it off and going shopping myself, I could have and
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: then just being a tiny bit irked about that and
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: filing that in the file a cabinet. I could have
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: been like, hey, you know, I really want to spend
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: time with you at Saturday. I don't have to work.
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: You know, the kids are with Grandma right now, like
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: we can just hang out. I really would have loved that,
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: But instead we chose to have independent And but I
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: didn't speak up for myself. So what do I expect?
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: It's right?
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: And so what I did was I looked back on
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: all those little moments, which there was probably about three
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: different little moments throughout the week, and I said, I
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: have felt so abandoned this week. And he's like what
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: and and he goes, okay, well tell me, you know,
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: how did I abandon you this week? I want to know?
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: And I said, you, you know, you didn't go to
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: the gym with me like we always do on Saturday.
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: You know, I'd had to run errands by myself because
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: you wanted to play video games when like I didn't
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: have to work.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: And I laughed so hard right now because like I'm sorry.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: Just listening to it, it's like like it just is
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: like a little baby crying for it.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: And I do it too. I do all the same things.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: And it makes me laugh because hearing yourself repeat the
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: things back that you thought you were mad about, you're like.
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: Really that bad? Yeah, I know, silly.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: So when FA will blow it up and catastrophize it, right,
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: and even in the moment they may not have spoke
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: their mind and put their truth out there and ask
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: for what they needed, they will file it and then
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: they will hold a little resentment and then it's going
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: to blow you know if or that's what I call
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: the long fuse or the pressure cooker. I FA, you know,
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: the one who's more avoidant. So if if you had
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: to choose Donald and I, I'm the more avoidant one
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: and he would be the more anxious one. Most of
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: the time it can flip flop, but overall we're very secure. Right,
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: we're talking about micro instances. And then so what ended
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: up happening? He goes, I need you to ask yourself,
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: are those decisions you made or decisions I made? You
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: didn't speak up? You know that I always tried. I
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: do everything I can to meet your needs. I love
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: you and I always will and he does. I've seen
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: it and my I'm not a mind reader. I think
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: I'm pretty good at a tuning to you, but I'm
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: not always going to get it perfect. And so how much,
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: how or how fair is it to punish me over
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: those moments where you didn't say what you needed? It'd
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: be one thing if you said it and I said, no,
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: I'm not doing that. Screw you, right, And I was like,
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: you know what, You're right? I said, You're absolutely right, baby,
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: I said, I am so sorry. I said. What I
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: have just done is one didn't speak my truth in
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: these moments this week, I think my tank was very empty.
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: And two i've catastrophized this. Ye what I really think
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: I wanted to say to you from today with the
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: whole going to breads and me, you know, you being
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: gone or whatever, was Hey, if you can't get a
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: hold of me on the phone, just shoot me a text,
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: yeah next time? Yeah, just that way. When I'm done coaching,
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: I'm not like, where's Donal all right? Even though I
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: could look on life three sixty and see everywhere he's been.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: But I know it's just being courteous.
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: So that was an f A thing. I stuffed down
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: moments of resentment even though they were micro things that
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: I should never have even been resentful about. Or I
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: could have easily have just said, hey, you know, but
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: would you you know, I would really love to spend
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: some time together. Can we do that today?
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: So talk about why the fa may be fearful to
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: speak up that way.
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: That's part of the fearful part of their attachment. Afraid
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: of rejection, desire to people please. Oftentimes when we have trauma,
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: we had to shrink ourselves or go into people pleasing
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: mode to not set off a dysfunctional parent. We are
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: hyper vigilant and oftentimes air towards what our partner wants. Again,
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: to try to stay to maintain safe connection. It doesn't
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: always feel safe to speak up and ask for what
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: we need out of fear of rejection or out of
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: a desire to overfunction and over attune to our partners
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: and give them what they need, because if we give
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: them what they need, then they won't abandon us. So again,
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: it's all about trying to avoid pain and maximizing connection,
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: and fas will do this in a lot of different ways.
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: So fearful avoidance have very high trait variability, which means
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: that one fear of full avoidant is really not going
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: to look like the next, because if you have one
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: that's very much more anxious versus very much more avoidant,
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: they will look very different. And then we have some
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: that sort of have equal anxiety and avoidance, so they're
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: real push pull yeah right to me, Yeah, their avoidance
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: is just as high as their anxiety. I mostly was
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: an anxious FA. I think in my relationship with Donald,
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: we are secure in micro moments when we have to
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: catch and correct these smaller moments. Maybe I would say
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: five percent of the time, h because you're human, Yeah,
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: five percent, that you're human. No person is one hundred
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: percent secure, right, It's about secure people are able to
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: in the moments where they're not secure, catch it, correct it,
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: take accountability for it. I've said it is a gazillion times,
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: and make it right and repair it and be And
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: so I was vulnerable. I said, I think what happened
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: this week, and I don't I want to take full accountability.
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: I don't want to minimize this. So but I do
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: want you to understand me a little bit better because
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: we both desire to understand each other. Right. I think
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: my gas tank wash really empty this week and I
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: slipped back into just a few old little fa things
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: and I said, that's not acceptable, and I take full responsibility,
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: and you know, hope you'll forgive me for you know,
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: getting a little two heated. And I think that that's
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: showing me where I need to pull back a little
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: bit at work and where I need to remind myself,
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: even in micro moments, to speak up for what I need.
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: And he's and he's like yeah, He's like, yeah, I
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: think that that's a good plan. I love you, no
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: hard feelings. I love you. You know, I'll always be
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: here for you. Tell me what you need and I'll
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: do what I can to meet that need, you know.
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: And we have to make that promise to each other,
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: because he will do that to me. He will. That's
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: called a fawn when you don't speak your truth and
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: you just let somebody else have their way. When you
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: really need something or want something, you're fawning. You're just
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: it's like collapsing and giving in. And that's not to
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: say that love isn't about compromise is but there has
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: to be a balance between I give. And I also
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: don't always abandon myself either. I was really needing some
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: connection on Saturday, and.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: Because we'd had a day just the two of us
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: before that.
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and didn't they play golf again? Yeah, they played.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: Golf.
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: Golf is life, No, but my husband he usually only
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: plays once a week, so it's like doable thing. Yeah,
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: and a lot of times we play together and it's great.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: I think it's really been great for oh gosh, John,
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: so great Donald to have that.
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's probably not socially acceptable to say their
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: golf group name. Oh yeah, oh avoid that.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah that's the secret. Well, if they want to talk about.
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: It, they can't. Let me start a podcast.
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all bad.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: Because they're hilarious so different too, so so similar but
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: so different.
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: And I love that our husbands are becoming good friends too,
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: because it just brings us as we can do.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: Things and yeah, I mean do things together and yeah,
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: y'all's children get older and you know, we have more
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: time on our hands. Yeah, then things will you know,
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: we can travel more and yeah, you know so so yeah.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: So I had an FA moment.
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: But the pain that FA's experience are those moments of
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: like I dropped my boundaries and I didn't speak up
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: for what I needed, and so then now I'm just
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: going to stuff it down and create resentment, and it's
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: going to build and build and build and build, and
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: then it's gonna blow and then I'm going to air
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: all of my grievances onto my partner and I'm going
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: to catastrophize the whole situation.
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: Really, they're just they're mad at themselves.
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: Resentment is not a function of your partner not giving
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: you what you need. It's a function of you not
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: holding a boundary around what you need or speaking up
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: for what you need. So if you have resentment, you
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: need to forgive yourself. Yeah you think you need to
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: forgive your partner, Yes, you do. But most importantly, you
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: need to forgive yourself because you were too scared to
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: hold a boundary, because you were too afraid of being
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: rejected for asking for what you needed and how that
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: would feel for you.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I do want to talk a little bit about
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: the fearful avoidant in the dating phase. Yeah, because I think, man,
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: it's difficult. It's so difficult in the dating phase for
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: a lot of fas. Because difficult because they do fear
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: betrayal so highly that you know it's hard to allow
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: them to get close to someone. I know, I really
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: struggled with this. Gosh, in my entire dating career.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: I would say that I really really struggle.
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: Some of their pain in the dating phase is that
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: they drastically overthink and they play enormous amount of manipulative games. Yeah,
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: enormous amount of games. They may try to make somebody
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: a little jealous. Coaches that are very dysfunctional out there,
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: and the game will call it competition anxiety. It's fine
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: if you give a scientific term for it, but it's manipulation.
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: Making someone jealous isn't healthy. They will pull back and
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: make someone quote unquote miss them. How's that going to
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: work out in the long term relationship? If somebody only
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: likes you when you go away, how is that going
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: to work out? It's not. So. They are very unintentionally manipulative,
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: both in the dating and relationship phase. But I think
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: in the dating phase they're too scared of really putting
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: themselves out there, and so again they will do it
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: just enough and then maybe hide pieces or parts of themselves,
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: or they will go very very anxious and try to
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: see what is my part? What do they want for me?
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: What do they need for me? How can I be
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: that person? They share that with the AP a little bit.
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: Although the AP is like that one hundred percent of
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: the time, the FA can be like that a little bit,
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: be a chameleon.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: It's like you said that one time. The FA is
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: like this fear of being too much and not enough?
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: Yes, and all the freaking time. I love that you
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: just said that. It is the pain of always being like,
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: am I too much or not enough? Too much or
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: not enough? And when they're a they're told enough, and
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: when they're anxious, they're told her too much.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: In my whole life, that's how it.
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: Felt, and I feel bad, and Dalla and I had
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: that conversation the other day of just how painful it
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: is it is, and how we don't want to do that, not.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: Just in romantic relationships, your friendships, your I mean, I've
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: always felt like there's too much.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: Am I too much?
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: In this friendship? Am I too loud? Am I too
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: you know? All these things that I've just questioned.
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: I can look back in my whole life, and although
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: it very much comes out more in our behavior, in
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: our romantic relationships and our heart and our minds. It's
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: sort of everywhere.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, yeah, work.
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: Right now in front of you at this moment.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: In this podcast. Am I too much? Am I not enough?
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: And too much? I am not?
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, We're getting get a review that says you say
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: too much? You say right, too much.
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: That's what I've just decided. Okay, I'm just gonna stay quiet.
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: No, I don't want you to shrink yourself.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: I know, I know, I'm working on it.
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: You know, the people that are super fans of this podcast,
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: and we do have some, yeah, and you know, maybe
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: they're a handful. I don't know, maybe there are a lot.
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: I don't know, but we hear from them sometimes and
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: they're like, please just be you. Yeah, because authenticity, Again,
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: authenticity is the most regulating thing to the human nervous system.
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: And fas are everything but authentic yep. Because you can't
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: be authentic if you're always questioning am I too much?
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: Or not enough? And how can I be just enough?
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: And can I how can I twist myself in the
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: right type of pretzel to be the right amount for you?
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: How can I? Please?
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: Surely who lives in Wisconsin? Who said I say m HM, right,
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: too much. That is not a real person.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: I'm just giving. I'm just going to a hypothetical name
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: out there.
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: And it's hard. You haven't had as much exposure as me.
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: This is your first real like being exposed, for sure,
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: And this is not my first go around. I had
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: a lot of exposure on social media before we started
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: this podcast, and I remember the first time I cried
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: over social media hate. I was like, I tried to
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: show a version of myself. I remember the video. This
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: is a video. My daughter was in sixth grade and
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: she was in algebra one. So my daughter's very advanced
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: takes has always been in advanced classes, taking AP classes.
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: She's a very high IQ, very gifted student. She's twice exceptional,
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: so she's gifted and ADHD. And she was she had
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: an algebra exam coming up. It was the night before
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: the exam. She hadn't really studied and she comes to me.
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: I had put she had gone to bed. You know,
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: I'd hugged her, kissed her, she went good night to sleep.
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: I told her good night, and she comes and finds
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: me at eleven pm. She said, Mom, I didn't study
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: very hard for my algebra test, and I'm actually really confused,
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: and can you sit with me and go over some
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: of this stuff. You have two attempts at this exam,
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: so this was attempt one. You have to learn to
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: ask for help for your drowning. That's a real important
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: life lesson, baby. And I said, this is what we're
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: going to do. You're going to get some You're better
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: off getting asleep and trying your best than you are
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: me trying to look up algebra at eleven o'clock at night, right,
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: And I said, you're going to have to go to bed,
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: and you're gonna have to take the hit on this one.
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: I said, but guess what, you get another chance. So
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: guess if this one doesn't go well, I will sit
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: down with you. I will try to figure it out
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: with you, and we will and I will try to
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: help you study for the next one, which I thought
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: was incredibly fair. Yeah, and actually teaching someone that you
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: escalating being upset, you sort of escalating your intensity is
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: not going to make me cave and drop a boundary
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: when it's both our time to go to bed and
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: get sleep, and that's important for our health. So I
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: made a video about this on social media because I
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: was starting to dabble again into secure parenting, and I
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: said a boundary. No, you're not going to come at
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: eleven o'clock at night force me to try to look
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: up algebra on the internet. We're going to stay up
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: till one o two in the morning. You have to
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: get up at six point thirty for school, and you're
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: going to be exhausted and probably do poorly on the
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: test because of exhaustion. That's not a good plan. And
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: I don't want to raise someone who's narcissistic enough to
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: think if you escalates, you're gonna get me to give
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: my boundaries. That's what her dad did. That's a function
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: of narcissism. Not that she is narcissistic, but children can
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: test the waters and use some narcissistic strategies like elevating
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: distress to get you to drop your boundaries. And so
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: I talked about this on social media in the amount
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: of visceral hate I got of, how dare you not
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: help your child when she is in need? How dare
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: you tell your child you wouldn't be there for them.
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: It is the job of the parent to let the
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: child know you will always be there for them. And
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: I'm like, you realize, I said, she gets two attempts
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: on this exam, right, And my comments were full of
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: hatefulness of how what a terrible parent I.
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: Was, And that's tough, like questioning your We all question
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: our parenting as it is.
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: That was a big wound to be when the.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: World is questioning it's my husband.
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: My first husband would always tell me you're a terrible mother,
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: because when I would go to him and say, I'm drowning,
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: I need a break. Can I just go take Will
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: you take the baby so I can go take a shower.
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: I feel disgusting, you know, and she'll cry if I
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: lay her down, She's going to cry. Can you just
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: hold her take a shower. You're a terrible mother. I'm
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: going to the gym, and I already told so, and
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: so I was going to the gym, figure out how
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: to take a shower. Every other mother does it. What's
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: wrong with you? So that really hit a wound when
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: I saw those comments, and I bawled my eyes out
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: to my husband, and my husband he comforted me and
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: empathized with me, and he said, baby, if you're really
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: going to do this, though, I need you to realize
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: that that's Satan and he's going to come for you
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: and he's going to try to pull you out of
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: your mission. And he said, so, are you going to
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: let strangers on the internet keep you from your mission?
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: Because you know what your heart and your intent was
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: at that post, and you're not wrong. If Gabby fails
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: at test, I know you you're gonna be there, and
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: you're gonna You're gonna have a plan for attempt to
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: You're not leaving her drowning. You're teaching her that a
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: valuable lesson to prepare and to ask for help before
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: the last minute. Boundaries and that and setting a boundary
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: for your health and well being for her and you. Yeah,
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: he said, those people and those comments are wrong. They're wrong,
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: and they don't know, they don't know they're permissive parents. Yeah,
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: and they assume, they assume the worst and so And
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: it was after that day that I realized this is
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: not going to be an easy task of putting myself
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: out there well.
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: And you know, I've even struggled.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: It's not even with the comments you know that have
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: come in that are about me. I struggle with the
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: comments that come in about you because I'm super protective
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: of the people I love, and so I remember when
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: I first started, you had that big viral video.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: And there were some.
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: Really thirty million on Twitter.
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, really really nasty comments, just ugly comments about your
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: looks and about trivial.
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: How I needed a nose job. Yeah, we all know. Okay,
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: And guess what, I have a breathing well, I have
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: a breathing disorder. I found out you're beautiful, and so
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: if I want to get that fixed, I might just
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: make it look different to who knows. I don't know.
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: I haven't decided yet.
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: Right, but I remember some of those those comments were
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: disregulating to me. And you know, Josh kind of had
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: to walk me through this in the beginning because I
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: call it my redneck side, but it truly is my
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: fa side. It is the side where I'm just like
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: the fighter. You believe that so and so said that,
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: you know, and I'm like, I'm all, I'm always going
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: to read a text or anything somebody says in like
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: the most negative tone.
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: And ye, their sure betrayal filter.
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so I used to I do that too.
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: Donald's like you and Raina assume somebody is like yelling
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: at you in a text message. They're not using all caps,
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: they're not using exclamation.
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: There's a key and peal. I don't know if you
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: know those comedians. Yeah, they do a whole bit on that.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: It's hilarious. But Josh sent it to me the other day.
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: I'll show it to you after we're done. Because Josh
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: sent it to me the other day, he's like, oh
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: my gosh, this is you. Where it's like, I'm.
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: Like, can you believe he said I will be there
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: and knew, God, you're the response, I'll be arriving at
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: noon looking forward to seeing you. Yeah. Yeah, So that's
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: the trail. But where the pain came in and that
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: viral in that video about my daughter was that the
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: deepest need of the fearful avoidant is to be understood.
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: So to be misunderstood is the biggest betrayal. Yeah it is,
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: And I felt so misunderstood in the comments of that video.
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: What I was trying to say was I want my
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: daughter to learn that boundaries are healthy. I want her
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: to take care of her health and well being. I
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: want her to learn to ask for help before she's drowning.
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: But I also do want her to know that I
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: will I will always be there for her. But part
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: of being a secure parent, I have learned, is allowing
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: your child to sit in the discomfort of their own
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: choices and to experience the natural consequences of their own choices,
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: which in this case was being ill prepared for a test.
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: But also know that I'm still here, I love you,
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: I'm not going anywhere, and you may have to face
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: that bad grade, but you're still loved, You're still accepted,
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: and how can we do it different next time to succeed?
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: And to me, that is secure parenting. And I know
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: it's secure. I damn well know it's secure parenting. Pardon
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: my friend. God has not convicted me over cuss words
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: yet we're working on it.
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: You know they did that study highly intelligent people cus
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: or whatever.
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: Well, damn it, thank you. I try not to. I
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: try to minimize it, but I think it's what it
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: ever's in your heart. My heart is not ill intent
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: right now. It's just to emphasize the point that those
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: comments were coming from very broken, permissive parents that would
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: trip over themselves to make sure their child doesn'tel announced
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: of discomfort, and that is not doing your child any
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: good because then.
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: They learn or our future.
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: To they learned that they that discomfort is intolerable and
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: life is full of discomfort. And we just talked about
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: last episode about processing emotions. It's all about sitting in
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: the discomfort and still knowing you're safe. Well secure parents
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: give that to their children by providing safety while their
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: children experience experience discomfort.
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I know you've mentioned this before. Remind me so,
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: Gabby and JP's generation is that GENSZ their gen Z,
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: So isn't it? Aren't they saying that gen Z's like
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: more avoidance are coming.
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: Yes, okay, twelve percent increase in dismissive avoidance.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: And do you think that that's and I know we
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: talked about we did a whole episode on you know,
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: attachment and generational the different generations. But do you think
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: that that is because of social media?
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: Yes? Do I think it is two things. One, it
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: allows connections to be more surface level, have FaceTime parties
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: instead of sleepovers now they do. My daughters sit alone
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: in her room and she'll have a group FaceTime going
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: on instead of real interpersonal and.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: Actually don't want to get their driver's license, and you
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: like remember like I could wait to get my driver's license.
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: At sixty Gabby's like already studying from her She was
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: already studying for her permit.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: A lot of teenagers, I've learned don't want to get
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: She takes.
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: Her permit test in like two months, so she's that's crazy.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: I know, that's wild.
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: I know I'm gonna have to buy a car. Why
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: she is not driving my car and she's not driving Donald's.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: Dry as wild. Yeah, and I would just assume I don't.
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: My brain went to the fact that, you know, I
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: feel like there is so much unresolved pain with that
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: generation so much.
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: They were raised by the gen xers, they were raised
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: by millennials that were raised by the Boomers, And I'm
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: so sorry Boomers, but you created so much pain in
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: your children.
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: I think it was because they were raised by the
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: greatest generation who went to the Great Depression. So they
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: were just like freaking maxed out. Their nervous systems were
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: freaking shot from living off of potatoes for like fifteen years,
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: right or whatever, And then the Boomers had to their
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: nervous systems were shot from hide like hide under their
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: desks for praying for nuclear attacks when the Cold War
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: was going on. The JFK getting shot and brain's blown
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: out on live TV. I mean, each generation experience is trauma.
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: And then the millennials, we have lived through every freaking disaster,
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: everything that could possibly happen, Like were the financial shots.
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: I feel like nine to eleven.
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we've brought like this awareness around, like mental health.
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: But the millennials are the first generations to try to
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: be cycle breakers. The Gen xers couldn't do it. And
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: so the older millennials, myself include, we are not as
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: much part of the cycle breakers as the younger millennials are.
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: So younger millennials, those of you in your thirties right now,
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: I praise you. You are doing amazing work. You are bringing
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: secure parenting to the forefront. And I am hoping. And
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: those are the kids with the gen alphas, So I am.
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: I am praying that Gen Alpha is going to be
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: a turnaround.
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: I think so.
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: And I'm about crying because I have a Gen Alpha?
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: Do I have a little Why do I always grab
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: a podcast and oh my gosh, I just knocked off?
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: That's okay?
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: Podcast holder, here, hold on how it goes back?
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: Oh?
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: Here it is okay. I'm not crying on this episode,
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: not because I'm not processing my emotions, but I will
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: process them after. I just want to get down to business.
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: And so the pain of fearful avoidance, Yeah.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: Let's go back to that, because there's a whole episode
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: on the generational thing.
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you can go back on it. We don't want
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: to repeat ourselves too much and go back to a
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: previous episode. But the pain of fearful avoidance lies so
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: much in the desperate, desperate need to be deeply understood
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: and feeling like no one ever has. And it's like
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: for them, it's like if you The reason that they
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: get so hurt in their relationships is because it's like,
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: you should know me so deep that you can predict
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: my needs, that you can meet my needs exactly how
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: I need them without me having to ask. If I
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: have to ask, it doesn't count. And when you don't
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: do that, it feels like a betrayal. Yeah, and when
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: you criticize me, I get It's not like the dismissive
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: avoidant that feels defective, judged and attacked. The FA feels
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: deeply misunderstood. So they will fight to be understood. They
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: will beat the dead horse in conflict. Some of them
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: will not all of them. Again, highly variable traits. I
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: am a beat the dead horse type of person. I
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: will repeat myself fifty thousand times. If I do not
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: check my triggers, if I do not use my tools,
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: and I do not stay in my secure space, I
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: will repeat myself. I will tell Donald fifty times what
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: he did wrong, yep, And he could apologize fifty times,
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: and I will need it fifty I.
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: Will repeat myself over just the most trivial thing, like
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: if I'm just trying to get a point across, I
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: don't even have to be in conflict. Yeah, Like, if
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: I'm just simply trying to get my point across.
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: I will say it all over a repeater.
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: I do it on the podcast.
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, and I know that so many people out
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: there are probably dealing with a lot of childhood trauma.
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: And I think what's so.
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: Beautiful about your practice is that, because it's a coaching practice,
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: a lot of these fas don't necessarily have to come
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: in and hash these really painful things at all to
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: fix it, right, because you already know, right, you already know,
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: so you.
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: Don't have to.
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: I think that, And we thought about doing a whole
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: episode on like the difference between therapy and coaching, which we.
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: Might do, but.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: I think that it's so beautiful because they don't have
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: to relive this. You can just give them very prescriptive
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: tools on how to fix it. And so I think
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: if you're listening right now and you know this episode
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: relates to you, and you're like, oh my gosh, this
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: is me.
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, But test trust, do you move the goalpost? Do
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: you repeat yourself in conflict? Do you have a strong
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: fight response? Do you want to be understood? Do you
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: expect your partner to predict your knees? Well, welcome to
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: being a fearful avoidance. I would love to help you out.
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: That's right, and she definitely can.
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: And I think that your testimonies are are speak for
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: themselves on that, and I mean even for me and
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: just the the short year and a half that we've
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: been doing the podcast, it's been really helpful. It's been
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: so helpful for some of those lingering fa traits that
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: I still have that I'm able to more easily recognize
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: than I could even a year and a half ago.
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: And have the tools to just calm it down yeah yeah,
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: and move through pain effectively. And they can't move through
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: their pain.
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: They shame myself because you know, I used to do
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: that a lot. Like if I would make a mistake
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: and know that it was often too then I would
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: just kind of beat myself up over it. And I'm
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: you know, learning not not to do that anything.
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, if I made a mistake at work five years ago,
• 55:57
  Speaker 3: I would be mortified. I would think about it for
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: days and days day, And it could have been something
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: so stupid, like I didn't copy somebody on an email.
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: Now I'm like, it's somebody, don If somebody, everything's fine.
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: Everything is fun for that. And we joke that her
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: job now is to just piss out fires.
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: That's basically but I wouldn't have it any other way.
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: I'm so grateful, and we are so grateful for each
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: and every one of you are. Please continue to tune in,
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: like we always say. I do want to give a
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: quick shout out to my sister Rachel Berry if you
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: are watching this episode on YouTube. The earrings I am
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: wearing were designed by Rachel Berry.
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: Design so very as a jewelry designer.
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and she's very crafty. I'd like to think that
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: all the Fullered girls are very crafty and creative.
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: Two out of the three fullered girls work for the love.
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: But Rachel Berry Design you can go see she just
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: dropped her whole entire Christmas shop on her earrings. There's
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: some really really great ones. You can see her at
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: Rachel Berrydesign dot shop.
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: And she spells it like Rachel L. Yes, there's the
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: L a E L.
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: Yes, a E L. And then, of course we just
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: want to thank you guys.
• 57:17
  Speaker 3: We love you so much.
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: Please write to us, leave us a review, continue to
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: tune in.
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: There's so much more to come.
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: We are so excited to keep doing this week after week,
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: and the reason that we get to is because of you, so.
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: Thank Thank you so much for listening.
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: Yes, and until next time, peace, love and perspective