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EP343. How To Get People To Say Yes: The Science of Ethical Persuasion · Profit With A Plan

• 0:00
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Right.
• 0:06
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: The top here.
• 0:11
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: What makes you peop… Of course, right off the get-go.
• 0:17
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: What makes people say yes? It's not just a sale, but to your idea, your leadership, or the next step you want them to take.
• 0:26
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: It's rarely pressure. It's more the understanding how people actually make decisions.
• 0:33
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Today, we're talking about the psychology behind trust, influence, and ethical persuasion, plus practical strategies that you can use right away in sales, marketing, leadership, and client conversations. So if you want a better communications that leads to better results, stay with us.
• 0:56
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Hey entrepreneurs, are you working too hard for too little profit? Well, welcome to Profit with a Plan podcast, where we help business owners scale smarter, increase profitability, and build a company that's worth more, whether you plan to keep it or sell it.
• 1:11
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: I'm Marcia Reiner, Business Growth Strategist and the Profit Booster behind Infinite Profit.
• 1:17
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Each week, I bring practical strategies, expert insights, and real-world steps to help you grow revenue, improve margins, and build a stronger business.
• 1:28
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: This episode is brought to you by Infinite Profit, where strategy turns into profitable growth.
• 1:34
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: But before we jump in, I have something special for you. If your revenue is plateaued, or your marketing is just not producing the return it should.
• 1:43
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Go get your free Profit Booster Growth Map. In just a few minutes, it'll help you identify where to bring in more qualified clients, and where profit leaks may be costing you money. Go get yours after the show at ProfitBooster.biz.
• 1:59
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Now, let's get on to today's conversation.
• 2:03
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Patrick Vanderbruckt, has… is a globally recognized expert, if I can get my mouth to work, in ethical persuasion and influence.
• 2:13
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: He is a business partner of Dr. Robert Cialdini, author of the legendary book Influence, The Psychology of Persuasion.
• 2:22
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: And Patrick is also the founding member of the Cialdini's Institute, and one of the only few select licensed trainers worldwide.
• 2:32
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: For more than two decades, he has helped professionals, leaders, and sales teams understand how people make decisions, build fast… build trust faster, and communicate in a way that lead to stronger relationships and better results.
• 2:47
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: He is also the co-author of How to Hear Yes More Often, and the host of his own podcast, Ethical Persuasions Unlocked. Patrick, welcome to Profit with a Plan Podcast. I need to fine-tune my mouth here today, it's just… it's just stumbling left and right, so this'll be fun.
• 3:05
  Patrick van der Burght: Thank you for inviting me, Marcia. I, I remember when I discovered Dr. Cialdini's work and the science of persuasion, and,
• 3:15
  Patrick van der Burght: it was really exciting, as in, I was like, are you serious? Is this how it works? And you don't have to lie and cheat, which exactly fitted into, you know, my sort of ethics and how I like to deal with people.
• 3:27
  Patrick van der Burght: And I see that same realization when I do a keynote or a workshop. People's eyes just get a little bigger as the time progresses.
• 3:36
  Patrick van der Burght: And so I'm hoping that we're getting a similar sort of reaction in your audience, and so thank you for putting me in front of them.
• 3:44
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: I love it! So, when did you find Dr. Cialdini's work?
• 3:48
  Patrick van der Burght: Oh, goodness, I was a sales rep in selling scuba diving equipment, And,
• 3:55
  Patrick van der Burght: I, you know, it was cassette tapes in the car back then, right? And my boss had hired a business consultant who was actually, I think, working with Abraham at the time, or beforehand, which we all know. And he was local to Melbourne, which is where I'm in Australia, and, he,
• 4:13
  Patrick van der Burght: He said, oh, if you ever have any, if you ever…
• 4:17
  Patrick van der Burght: have any questions or things of how to implement the strategies that we're sharing with your team and the sales reps of your boss's company, then come visit us in Vermont. And that was close to me, and I don't know if you've ever been on holiday and you bumped into a Dutch person.
• 4:31
  Patrick van der Burght: And you might say, listen, if you're ever in America, you know, need a place to stay, come visit. Don't do that with Dutch people.
• 4:38
  Patrick van der Burght: turn up, right? And.
• 4:41
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: So you turned up on his doorstep.
• 4:43
  Patrick van der Burght: Yeah, of course, you know, at his office, but he really liked how, you know, I mean, you know this, right? You can give advice to people.
• 4:51
  Patrick van der Burght: And then they… they… they might try it once, and then it doesn't work straight away, and they… they discount it, as in, this stuff doesn't work. And I'm not like that. I go, why didn't I get the results that clearly this is able to do? So I'd go back to him, and he, his name was John McDonald's.
• 5:07
  Patrick van der Burght: He really liked this, and so we had these little chats, but he was lending me
• 5:12
  Patrick van der Burght: these educational series, cassette tapes, right? And they, I mean, they're cheap now, but they used to be expensive. I remember paying $1,200 for a set of Brian Tracy CDs. And so he was lending me this stuff, and there was this one…
• 5:27
  Patrick van der Burght: series called Mind Capture, and, I think it was just before the turn of the century or something, and Dr. Cialdini was on there with two cassette tapes, and that's, yeah, it blew me away. Blew me away.
• 5:38
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Wow.
• 5:39
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Wow. You know, it's so funny how time was way back before the internet, right? And cassette tapes and, you know, those kind of things, but knowledge and skill set…
• 5:51
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: That's where we professionals can really fine-tune and sharpen our sword, right? In so many ways, and as a…
• 5:59
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: as a continuous learner, I love that space, because there's always so many things. Even, I've got a mentor that goes back to, you know, 1926, when he pulls some of his stuff, and I'm like, it still applies, right? It still works, and that's why I love the fact that your origin story was… was very similar to mine, like, I wouldn't go knock on their door.
• 6:24
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: but I just love gathering information.
• 6:27
  Patrick van der Burght: And it's interesting you mention, you know, how times have changed, right? When it comes to what we're discussing here today, and what your audience is getting from us.
• 6:37
  Patrick van der Burght: this was… topical when Dr. Cialdini wrote his book in 1984, right?
• 6:43
  Patrick van der Burght: But our world is changing. Our world is speeding up. We are getting more and more information thrown at us. And to quote Dr. Cialdini, we live in the most information-overloaded, stimulus-saturated environment
• 6:58
  Patrick van der Burght: that has ever existed on this planet. And he was saying that in the 90s, and it's just getting more and more true, and as a result, our attention span
• 7:08
  Patrick van der Burght: is getting shorter. We used to have an attention span of 20 minutes in the 80s. Have you… do you know what the attention span of the famous goldfish is supposed to be?
• 7:18
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: It's somewhere around 2-3 seconds.
• 7:21
  Patrick van der Burght: Oh, I'll give him a little bit of credit. 9 seconds for the… 9 seconds for the goldfish. Our attention span's now 7 seconds.
• 7:30
  Patrick van der Burght: We've been beaten by the goldfish. And so, when it comes to what we're discussing here today, that…
• 7:37
  Patrick van der Burght: has become more relevant and more valuable in the world that we're going to, because people are overloaded. And when you come with a message, if you come with the typical message that a business professional or a small business owner is trying to put out there, it's filled with the wrong
• 7:55
  Patrick van der Burght: Pieces of information, and we actually cause uncertainty in our audience, and they… Decide not to decide.
• 8:05
  Patrick van der Burght: They push back from you, and your wonderful, genuinely good-for-them, good value proposal. And so you're losing out on successes, and it doesn't need to be sales-related, it could be your team doing, as you asked, or negotiating with your local council, or your teenage children, trying to get them to clean up their room.
• 8:24
  Patrick van der Burght: Right? A lot of non-compliance
• 8:29
  Patrick van der Burght: doesn't need to be non-compliance, they're not no's, they're indecision. So, yeah, it's a very exciting topic, and business knows this. I mean, goodness, Dr. Cialdini's book
• 8:40
  Patrick van der Burght: you know, 1984, it started, was it this year or last year? Forbes had another article on their website with the timeless reads for business owners. What's that number one?
• 8:51
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Nice!
• 8:52
  Patrick van der Burght: influence the psychology of Persuasion.
• 8:54
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: I love it. Alright, so we know that…
• 8:57
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: we have to grab attention quickly, right? And I'm a big fan of saying that, and I don't know where I heard this, I didn't come up with it, but I heard it somewhere that, you know, the audience doesn't care about me, they care about themselves and solving their problems, so what can we do in those brief 7 seconds
• 9:17
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: To get them to stop and lean in a little bit.
• 9:21
  Patrick van der Burght: Okay, well, we… basically, we have to give them an excuse, a reason to stick around. And, it's nice you took this angle, and I love this with interviews, as in, you know, when I'm interviewed, we go into different angles, depending on your.
• 9:36
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Rabbit holes.
• 9:37
  Patrick van der Burght: Yeah, so let's quickly jump to a website.
• 9:41
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Okay.
• 9:43
  Patrick van der Burght: The area of a website that you can see without scrolling?
• 9:47
  Patrick van der Burght: It's called Above the Fold.
• 9:50
  Patrick van der Burght: This comes from newspaper times, right? When you put the newspaper on the table, and for those who are younger, those are lots and lots of paper with writing on it.
• 9:59
  Patrick van der Burght: And then, you know, you have to turn the page, right? And what you can see before you turn the page.
• 10:06
  Patrick van der Burght: I think it was called before the fault, right? So with a website, we say above the fault.
• 10:10
  Patrick van der Burght: And so, It's arrogant!
• 10:14
  Patrick van der Burght: to think… That everybody who gets on your website will actually start scrolling.
• 10:22
  Patrick van der Burght: You'll be horrified how many people will make… take the trouble to go to your domain, they look at the area that they can see without scrolling, and go…
• 10:32
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: And they're done.
• 10:32
  Patrick van der Burght: Meh, right? And they're gone, right? So, you have that moment
• 10:39
  Patrick van der Burght: to share some information that appeals to the primary decision-making part of the brain, which functions as a shortcut, and I'd love to explain that for everyone.
• 10:49
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Yeah.
• 10:50
  Patrick van der Burght: For them, for their brain to go, you know what?
• 10:53
  Patrick van der Burght: This is probably a good idea, or a good decision for me.
• 10:57
  Patrick van der Burght: to start scrolling, right? That's what you try. So if you put your persuasive information below the fault, they may never see it. So when it comes to, alright, we gotta be quick, absolutely.
• 11:10
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Hi, I love it.
• 11:11
  Patrick van der Burght: You message, you're reaching out, when you do lead generation, if you're failing to put that information in that actually matters, you're underperforming your potential by a vast percentage, which is really not funny.
• 11:23
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: And I think that… that statement references to everything we're doing. If you're talking to someone, and someone says, what do you do? If you give your, you know, long-winded version, they've shut down their ears and they're looking for the exit as quickly as possible, but if you hook them with that… with that above-the-fold kind of statement, you know, it can be used on a telephone call, as an introduction, and… and email format. I mean, I…
• 11:48
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Exponential places that it can go, obviously.
• 11:51
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: So, how do we start to figure that out? I know there's a long process that you go through to really define all this, but I'm kind of coming from different angles to see if we can see how real use this can actually turn into.
• 12:07
  Patrick van der Burght: Yeah, call. So normally, what I sort of dive into is the science of human decision making. I can try and squeeze that into something small, and if people want to know more, which I would really encourage them to do, is to go to my podcast, Ethical Persuasion Unlocked.
• 12:24
  Patrick van der Burght: I would normally urge people to start with episode 1, because it actually follows a good logical progression, but episode 2 is about the science of human decision-making, and then we can go a lot deeper, but…
• 12:36
  Patrick van der Burght: If I put it in a nutshell, and I'm leaning on the work of Professor Daniel Kahneman, who died a couple of years ago, unfortunately, but he was a professor in psychology and a behavioral scientist, and he won a Nobel Prize in 2002,
• 12:52
  Patrick van der Burght: in economics, which is a bit odd, right? I mean, normally you win an…
• 12:56
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Psychology and economics?
• 12:58
  Patrick van der Burght: for an extraordinary contribution to that field. So what does a behavioral scientist come up with that has such an impact on economics? Well, his research is largely about decision making, and so he disproved a popular belief that old economics had. Old economics figured that
• 13:17
  Patrick van der Burght: people are logical, rational creatures, and we would therefore use logic and reason to formulate our decisions, and that's wrong, and that's what Daniel Kahneman demonstrates. So.
• 13:29
  Patrick van der Burght: when it comes to decision making, your brain, as Daniel Kahneman explains, has two parts, System 1 and System 2.
• 13:36
  Patrick van der Burght: System 1 is the intuitive part of the brain, which works really fast, it works automatically, it is outside of our conscious control.
• 13:46
  Patrick van der Burght: And we use it for everyday decisions, but it is error-prone, meaning
• 13:52
  Patrick van der Burght: that when we are… let's say you're shopping for something that you don't know anything about. You're looking to buy a monitor for your computer setup or something. And you know nothing about monitor construction, or what makes them last long, or that sort of stuff.
• 14:07
  Patrick van der Burght: So, you could leave the store, and you could go and do research and learn about monitor construction and all that sort of stuff, and then 4 months later, you'll be able to come back and make an educated decision about which monitor to buy.
• 14:20
  Patrick van der Burght: But I don't know about you, I don't have the time for that.
• 14:23
  Patrick van der Burght: And so.
• 14:24
  Patrick van der Burght: something in the back of our head might bubble up because there's a shortcut that might apply in this situation. The shortcut could be, expensive equals good.
• 14:35
  Patrick van der Burght: Right? We've learned from experience that most of the time, when you spend more money on something, you get something that's of better quality, better suited to purpose, and gonna last you longer.
• 14:46
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: In theory.
• 14:47
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Yes.
• 14:48
  Patrick van der Burght: In that moment, expensive equals good is a shortcut to a quicker decision.
• 14:55
  Patrick van der Burght: And that allows System 1 to make a quick decision. Now, System 2, on the other hand, that's our logical, rational part of the brain.
• 15:03
  Patrick van der Burght: And so that is conscious thinking, it looks at all the information we've got available, and it makes a very reliable decision, but Daniel Kahneman calls it the lazy controller. It doesn't actually want to engage. It's quite happy for System 1 to make the decisions.
• 15:19
  Patrick van der Burght: Punchline is that Daniel Kahneman, back in 2002, highlights that 90% of our decisions, it's 9-0, 90% of our decisions are made by System 1.
• 15:31
  Patrick van der Burght: outside of our conscious control, largely based on shortcuts. And now it said that that's 95%, and the reason that's increasing is because that attention span I mentioned earlier, that's getting shorter.
• 15:44
  Patrick van der Burght: So here's the big problem. There's a big disconnect between what science knows works and what business does.
• 15:55
  Patrick van der Burght: when we don't know the science, and we think, okay, how am I going to convince this person to interact with my lead generating efforts? Sure.
• 16:05
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: In 7 seconds.
• 16:07
  Patrick van der Burght: how am I going to get this person to be, you know, be favorable towards my sales pitch? How do I get my team members to follow the safety procedures that they really ought to? When you're sitting there thinking, you're using conscious thought, and so you're using System 2, and that has the…
• 16:26
  Patrick van der Burght: the habit of coming up with the pieces of information that would need System 2 and the other person to process it, but they don't have the time for it anymore, and that's where they get that uncertainty, and you're overloading them, and they decide not to decide.
• 16:43
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: You might do a stop.
• 16:44
  Patrick van der Burght: proposals, you might get a small percentage of yeses, and most of them you would think, well, there were no's, I didn't get the business, but they didn't need to be no's. A large percentage of those, much larger than you probably imagine, were just indecision. Had you only supplied a piece of information for System 1 to go
• 17:03
  Patrick van der Burght: Good enough for me, you would have had the business. So that's…
• 17:08
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: So now the million dollar question, though.
• 17:11
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: What would be that… what would be that solution, or what would be that item that they need that, they could make that decision 95% of the decision based on non…
• 17:23
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Non-thought-provoking decision.
• 17:26
  Patrick van der Burght: It's basically what it is, non-thought-provoking. So that's exactly what Dr. Cialdini put in his book, Influence. Those are the seven universal principles of persuasion. They're basically a way for you to understand what types of information qualify as shortcuts.
• 17:43
  Patrick van der Burght: So shall I dive into those and run through.
• 17:45
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Yeah, that sounds very interesting.
• 17:48
  Patrick van der Burght: Okay, great. So, they're universal principles because they work in all languages, all cultures, and all countries. And that's exceedingly helpful because our cultures are intermixed, but it's also very easy to do business with people in other countries.
• 18:03
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Yes.
• 18:03
  Patrick van der Burght: Alright, so, 7 principles. All these words you've heard before. Goodness, you might even have read Dr. Cialdini's book, but that doesn't mean that you
• 18:12
  Patrick van der Burght: understand how it works? Did you know the activators or the amplifiers? And… I mean, I love when people have read Dr. Cialdini's book, but when I look on their website, read their brochures, listen to their team sales pitches.
• 18:24
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: You're like, obviously!
• 18:26
  Patrick van der Burght: you're not using it, right? So you need application skills, so bear with me.
• 18:32
  Patrick van der Burght: So we have reciprocity. People have a tendency to want to give back the same type of behavior that first was given to them. In the context of compliance, we are much more likely to want to cooperate with people that we feel we owe.
• 18:47
  Patrick van der Burght: And so… In business, we've taken that as, okay, we gotta give people stuff.
• 18:52
  Patrick van der Burght: And that's, in essence, correct, but a lot of businesses get it wrong. A classic example is a downloadable e-book on your website, right? You might have a nice e-book as a lead generator, I'm not saying it's a bad lead generator, but if you think that it activates reciprocity, you're probably making a great mistake.
• 19:11
  Patrick van der Burght: So, if I ask you to put your name and your email address so I can send you the download link, it's not a gift, it's a reward.
• 19:18
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Mmm.
• 19:19
  Patrick van der Burght: The Lord ends the relationship.
• 19:22
  Patrick van der Burght: A gift starts it.
• 19:24
  Patrick van der Burght: Right? So…
• 19:25
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: I like it.
• 19:26
  Patrick van der Burght: doesn't have that feeling that the emotional bank account is out of balance, where instead, if I gave you, you know, a PDF checklist with valuable information about where you are and a decision you need to make, and it's just a right-click and download, no email required.
• 19:42
  Patrick van der Burght: Now it's a gift. Now it's like a piece of cheese in the supermarket that you think doesn't change your behavior, but the data is very clear. You give things away.
• 19:50
  Patrick van der Burght: People reciprocate and buy more. So, reciprocation, we want to think, how can I genuinely help this other person, regardless if they
• 20:00
  Patrick van der Burght: Start using me.
• 20:01
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Because they gave me something.
• 20:04
  Patrick van der Burght: Yeah, yeah, something helpful, and it doesn't need to be tangible. It can be intangible, could be your time, your attention.
• 20:09
  Patrick van der Burght: You need to verbalize it properly.
• 20:12
  Patrick van der Burght: Alright, liking.
• 20:14
  Patrick van der Burght: We like people that are like us.
• 20:18
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Me too.
• 20:19
  Patrick van der Burght: similarities. We like people That, like us.
• 20:24
  Patrick van der Burght: And we like people that like us and say so.
• 20:26
  Patrick van der Burght: Which is compliments.
• 20:28
  Patrick van der Burght: Right? So, I'll weave some tips in here straight away. So, there was a study between Northwestern and Stanford, and they looked at
• 20:39
  Patrick van der Burght: negotiators who used email to, you know, negotiate difficult business contracts. And these…
• 20:48
  Patrick van der Burght: negotiations took a long time, and this represented an enormous amount of money that was being invested. And they figured out that 30% of those negotiations ended up in deadlock, which cost them an enormous amount of money.
• 21:02
  Patrick van der Burght: One of my colleagues advised them to, when they go into a meeting, to first share some personal information in terms of what are your interests, what are your hobbies, what do you like to do, what's the favorite food you eat, that sort of stuff, and get a conversation going with the other party in terms of who they are, and try and figure out something.
• 21:22
  Patrick van der Burght: It wasn't about how much information was being shared, what was critical is how many similarities were uncovered.
• 21:29
  Patrick van der Burght: And the punchline of that study was that deadlock negotiations dropped from 30% to 6%.
• 21:37
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Wow. So are you suggesting that we come in and say, oh, just here in the States, we often have, team alliances, right? So, oh, I'm a… I'm a…
• 21:49
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: God forbid, a Raiders fan, right? Because I'm in Las Vegas, and they're terrible, but I'm a Raiders fan, right? And so bonding along those lines is really going to give you that much weight when it comes to them making a decision.
• 22:02
  Patrick van der Burght: Yeah, you want to uncover similarities, so… and to your point, if you uncover that you support this team.
• 22:10
  Patrick van der Burght: And now your audience supports that team, now you've… you've known.
• 22:14
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: No, I'm the enemy… similarity, right?
• 22:17
  Patrick van der Burght: It might not work for you. But what you instead could say, I love football.
• 22:23
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Right, yeah.
• 22:23
  Patrick van der Burght: If the other person goes, oh, I love football too, now…
• 22:28
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Dream it.
• 22:28
  Patrick van der Burght: Miller.
• 22:29
  Patrick van der Burght: Yeah. Does that make sense?
• 22:31
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Yep, I like it, like it. So you're saying that, that, are your list of seven in a hierarchy order, or are they just a listed order? I mean, do one, does one make more weight than the others?
• 22:45
  Patrick van der Burght: Two very cool questions.
• 22:49
  Patrick van der Burght: They are in a particular order, but that goes a little bit too deep to go into that today.
• 22:55
  Patrick van der Burght: What order they're sort of in.
• 22:58
  Patrick van der Burght: is that there's, you could say, 3 pillars to you negotiating or convincing, persuading someone. You need a relationship with the people, you need a good relationship. If you don't like someone, you're gonna…
• 23:11
  Patrick van der Burght: go out of your way not to deal with them, right? So we need a strong relationship. But you have people that have a good relationship with you, but they're not buying your product because they're… they're still uncertain about what it is you're actually offering, or they… they're still uncertain that this is applicable to them, that you're offering good value, so uncertainty is now your problem.
• 23:31
  Patrick van der Burght: Hmm, so…
• 23:32
  Patrick van der Burght: we want to reduce uncertainty. And so, there's principles in the seven that are great for building and repairing relationships. There's other principles which are great at reducing uncertainty.
• 23:45
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Mmm, if we go.
• 23:46
  Patrick van der Burght: both those covered, if we've got a good relationship and people are certain about what it is we're offering. Oh, when I'm ready, I'm gonna get your stuff. But there's still.
• 23:55
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: When I'm ready.
• 23:56
  Patrick van der Burght: Right? They're still not buying. So now motivation is lacking, and so there's principles that are powerful, your go-to principles, when you want to motivate people. But if you start that, when you don't have a relationship, or there's still uncertainty.
• 24:11
  Patrick van der Burght: You're not gonna have a great.
• 24:12
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: You get that uncomfortable push, rather than… than the gentle pull, right? Or… or the persuasion in that… in that manner, because we've all had that experience of someone coming in going, oh, buy my stuff, buy my stuff, you know, and it's like.
• 24:28
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: wait a minute, oh, but I've got this, like, you gotta buy before midnight, or you've gotta, you know, and all these things, but it sounds like it's in the wrong order, because A, you haven't built the relationship, and you haven't given them the clarity yet to be able to provide them
• 24:43
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: The… the momentum or the… or the, motivation to… to go through on it?
• 24:49
  Patrick van der Burght: That's right, and if you have, I mean, honestly, if I can give you the tools to build a relationship quickly.
• 24:56
  Patrick van der Burght: To reduce uncertainty.
• 24:58
  Patrick van der Burght: And to motivate people into action.
• 25:02
  Patrick van der Burght: Do you need anything else, or have you got it covered?
• 25:05
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Well, I think you also have to have, you know, you have to be talking to the right person who has a need for the product that you happen to be selling, or the solution you happen to be selling. So, I mean, market fit has to be there before any of that.
• 25:18
  Patrick van der Burght: Absolutely, so you increase your chances, but even if you talk to somebody who's less qualified, we still, in our efforts of communicating, we still want to maximize the chances of getting a result in that situation, whatever that percentage might be. So yeah, you're absolutely right, but it still applies everywhere.
• 25:36
  Patrick van der Burght: And then your other thing was, is one principle better than the other? Well, that I can now easily explain. It depends on where you are in the relationship.
• 25:45
  Patrick van der Burght: there's no more… there's no principle that's more powerful than the other ones, because it depends on where you are. If you have no relationship, well, then the principles for relationship building are your go-to's.
• 25:58
  Patrick van der Burght: But, you know, if you've got that relationship and uncertainty is gone, well, then, for example, scarcity, which we're very familiar with, that's a good motivator at that time.
• 26:10
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Wow, okay, so that makes total sense, because it gives your… it gives your, principals a little bit more of weight in the conversation, because we all know reciprocity and… and… and liking each other. We all try and bond before, you know, before the conversation can go. But oftentimes, like you said, it still falls flat, because you haven't done the other factors that are involved.
• 26:34
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: with making
• 26:36
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: a sales transaction. Now, do these, do these principles and these pillars only apply for, let's call it high-ticket items, or do they apply for maybe, not quite impulse, but somewhere in between? Maybe it's a lower-priced item, or something that doesn't require deep, deep research and commitment to be able to purchase.
• 27:01
  Patrick van der Burght: I would argue that their effect would be, equally important or applicable in every situation, and actually.
• 27:11
  Patrick van der Burght: it doesn't apply to, per se, the purchase. It applies to behavior, right? So, purchasing is buying behavior. When I talk to my teenager to clean up their room, there's no transaction.
• 27:27
  Patrick van der Burght: I still want them to clean up their room, right? If I talk to my partner about the next…
• 27:32
  Patrick van der Burght: you know, holiday you might want to go on, or, you know, if you're talking to, I don't know, team members to stay… if you're a board member, and you've made mistakes, or sorry, if you're the CEO, and you've made some bad calls in the past, how do you get your board members to stay with you?
• 27:49
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: That's me.
• 27:50
  Patrick van der Burght: behavior. And so this comes back everywhere. Yeah, if it's about a packet of gum, well, then maybe it's a little less, you know, less impactful, but, you know, if we can still demonstrate that these pieces of information are in the situation.
• 28:03
  Patrick van der Burght: We would, improve our… our success rate.
• 28:07
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: I love that. So it's not just the sales transaction, it's getting them to buy into your idea, it's getting them to buy into the direction you want to do, and God forbid you should ever want your kid to clean up their room, right? You know, that's a challenge right there, but I love that kind of persuasion, is…
• 28:25
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Is that, that you're, you're…
• 28:27
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: You're getting them… you're building a relationship with them on this topic, or even something longer or deeper, like a longer relationship, but you're… you're still… you're still niching it down to the action that you want them to… to follow by… by taking these steps.
• 28:45
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: So, I know that we're only on a half-hour show here, and I know that we can go on for at least an hour and a half, if not two hours, on these topics alone, but let's briefly finish those… those principles that we, that are so important to getting someone to
• 29:00
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: say yes and make a decision, even if it's not to buy your stuff, but to do an action that you want them to do, the next thing that you want them to do. Book a call, maybe, you know?
• 29:11
  Patrick van der Burght: Exactly. Alright, so there's the principle of unity, which was the last principle that was, let's say, discovered. So unity is about a feeling of community. If I have…
• 29:21
  Patrick van der Burght: if I feel that I'm… I grew up in the same suburb as you, or we went to the same school together, or we support the same team, or we are those types of people that like football, right? Now you're part of a community, and if you bring that to the surface.
• 29:37
  Patrick van der Burght: people are, you know, will treat you far more favorably. You get this favoritism towards each other, so it's very powerful.
• 29:43
  Patrick van der Burght: Then there's the principle of social proof, right? We've all heard it, we've all heard of that term.
• 29:49
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Yeah, and funny enough, back in the 80s, in the early 80s, I mean, it was… social wasn't that big, so we're not necessarily talking about having proof on Facebook or LinkedIn, but we're talking about having
• 30:05
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: what?
• 30:07
  Patrick van der Burght: The social proof means the actions of comparable others.
• 30:11
  Patrick van der Burght: We have a tendency to follow the actions of others.
• 30:15
  Patrick van der Burght: Especially when they are numerous, and when they are similar to us.
• 30:20
  Patrick van der Burght: And when we are uncertain. This is why testimonials and reviews are so powerful, and I think by now, most business owners know that they should not do without that on their website or in their conversations, right? And I applaud you for it, but…
• 30:35
  Patrick van der Burght: If you… if you think that you shouldn't not use referrals and testimonials.
• 30:42
  Patrick van der Burght: You'll be shocked to hear there's probably another 11 strategies to, when it comes to social proof, who are equally, if not more, powerful, and you're not using any of those.
• 30:50
  Patrick van der Burght: But yes, we follow the actions of others, so testimonials are important. Testimonials with more details are valuable for the reader, so don't be shy and ask people, would you please leave a testimonial?
• 31:05
  Patrick van der Burght: We'd love it if you could put a little bit of details in it about your experience, right? That makes that testimonial more valuable.
• 31:12
  Patrick van der Burght: What's interesting is that it is negative reviews that, of course, draw the eye much quicker, right? We all want to know what's wrong with it.
• 31:18
  Patrick van der Burght: And so, what's important there, and yeah, no time today, but is how do you respond to that negative review in a way that you use some of the principles of persuasion to use the drawing power of a negative review
• 31:33
  Patrick van der Burght: to… Share the positive side of your business.
• 31:37
  Patrick van der Burght: So anyway, social proof. I'll move on, because I know we're short of time. Authority is that we follow the actions or recommendations of people that have more knowledge and wisdom on a particular topic.
• 31:48
  Patrick van der Burght: Now, that's why it's helpful if you have reports of doctors, professors, research, industry standards, that sort of stuff, that helps, that's great. But you yourself, you are also an authority, you know your business, you know this stuff.
• 32:01
  Patrick van der Burght: But getting yourself seen as an authority, that's not so easy. And what you can do is turn up and go, hi, my name is Patrick, let me tell you the 35 reasons why you should listen to me today.
• 32:12
  Patrick van der Burght: Right? People think that you're full of yourself.
• 32:17
  Patrick van der Burght: Then to left, consistency is that we want to stay true to past actions and statements that we've made, so that's an important
• 32:25
  Patrick van der Burght: sort of internal pressure that we experience, so we can use that, again, in an ethical way to motivate people to move forward. And then lastly, scarcity. We value things more that are less available, that are rare, that are scarce, or, you know, are dwindling and available, or that are unique.
• 32:44
  Patrick van der Burght: And so we need to look for
• 32:47
  Patrick van der Burght: genuine scarcity in the situation. If you're a doctor or a therapist, and you can only take so many appointments in a week, or in a day, that's natural scarcity. You should bring that up and make people aware of it. But we don't want to invent
• 33:05
  Patrick van der Burght: False scarcity, because unethical use of persuasion can backfire, and that leaves us with credibility craters.
• 33:12
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Oh, I can imagine, right? And it sounds like hearing some of these things, I've experienced others, not me, but others that have… that have used
• 33:25
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: one or two of these, but not all of them. Do we need to have this, Patrick? Do we need to have a full, a full list of these in all of our actions, or can we use one or two?
• 33:41
  Patrick van der Burght: Most people don't use any.
• 33:43
  Patrick van der Burght: Or…
• 33:44
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Scarcity is pretty common, but they use it at the wrong time and, you know, throw it out there in the wrong way, right? So, so they… that one I would think that they're trying to do, but, I mean, do we need to stack all of these?
• 33:56
  Patrick van der Burght: No, we don't need to stack all of them. In fact, you don't want to use all of them in the same communication, because…
• 34:01
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: At some point.
• 34:03
  Patrick van der Burght: If you start layering them, like, all seven in there, you really start getting the feeling that you're trying to convince me, and then sometimes people can put the brakes on. So it's more important to realize where you are in the situation.
• 34:16
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Hmm.
• 34:17
  Patrick van der Burght: and then go, okay, I'm early on, I need to build relationship, and maybe reduce a bit of uncertainty, but I'm going to leave motivation right alone, right? When it's later down the piece, and I've got that relationship, then you want to pick those. So you might… you might use…
• 34:33
  Patrick van der Burght: One, two, maybe three of these principles, and yeah, they can have a…
• 34:38
  Patrick van der Burght: an enormous effect. I can give you a quick example. Bose was launching a new hi-fi system, and they had a poster, an advertisement campaign that their people had designed, and it was not doing very well. Sales were disappointing.
• 34:53
  Patrick van der Burght: And they actually asked Dr. Cialdini to look at the ad, and it was very technical, which is all System 2 information, logic and reason, but Bose's audience really likes that type of information. The problem was the headline.
• 35:06
  Patrick van der Burght: The headline actually had a principle of persuasion in it.
• 35:09
  Patrick van der Burght: But it was working against bows. That happens all the time as well. You accidentally use something, but in the wrong direction. You work very effectively against yourself.
• 35:19
  Patrick van der Burght: And so Dr. Cialdini just changed the headline.
• 35:23
  Patrick van der Burght: That was it, and he used a principle to work FOR Bose, and sales increased by 45%.
• 35:30
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Wow. That's insane, how just the little shifts can make such a huge difference. Once you're aware of them, and you learn how to use them properly, then it's like.
• 35:44
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Now, it's not an unfair advantage, but it seems like it is the right advantage that you want to use in many places in your life. Whether you're, you know, trying to negotiate with your kids, or, you know, bring business in, or you're trying to just be a better person and move people in the right way. I think that
• 36:07
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: You know, things done with good intentions always turn out better, but, you know.
• 36:12
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: this… this seems like something that is really valuable in the fact that we need to learn it, right? So, I know we're running out of time here, and like I said, we could go on for 2 hours here, Patrick, but where can listeners find this information so they can start to…
• 36:29
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: consume it like a Netflix, you know, series, right? They're gonna get in, and they're just gonna keep going with it, and then start to practice it, and get your help.
• 36:39
  Patrick van der Burght: Thank you for asking. So, of course, there's lots of materials to find out. First of all, you can buy Dr. Cialdini's book, and
• 36:47
  Patrick van der Burght: the book I wrote with some of my colleagues, How to Hear Yes More Often, is a nice complement to that book, because it focuses on the practical application. So that can be helpful, but…
• 36:57
  Patrick van der Burght: Reading a book takes time, and we tend to forget a lot. So…
• 37:00
  Patrick van der Burght: Where can you find out more? Well, you can, of course, visit me on my website, it's ethicalpersuasion.com.au, because I'm based in Australia, so it's .com.au. There you can find information about how you can learn this, or how we can help your business. There's also a complimentary section there, you can find that in the menu.
• 37:20
  Patrick van der Burght: There is a downloadable e-book, but no email or name required. You can just right-click and download, and it's yours, so it's a true gift.
• 37:30
  Patrick van der Burght: There's also an email challenge where you can get a little lesson every day, and we're working on something right now, which we're hoping to be sort of finished when Marcia airs this. We have a new sort of course, and you can get about 4 or 5 weeks access to this, and get a weekly lesson, and access to a Q&A call with me, so you can actually ask some questions.
• 37:50
  Patrick van der Burght: Other than that, if that's a little bit too much for you, I've got my own podcast, Ethical Persuasion Unlocked, and yeah, the first 15 or so episodes… normally the first episodes on podcasts are not so great, but I'm in…
• 38:03
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: mine.
• 38:04
  Patrick van der Burght: But I'm sharing a lot, right?
• 38:06
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Hmm.
• 38:07
  Patrick van der Burght: And so, yeah, start at episode 1 and work your way forward. You'll… if you loved what you heard here today, you'll love all those. But please realize that you need to develop application skill and confidence, and that rarely comes from a book, it rarely comes from a podcast. You're gonna need some…
• 38:23
  Patrick van der Burght: formal assistance, and, you know, if I can help you as an individual, or your business, or your team as a group, I'd be absolutely delighted. Reach out to me.
• 38:33
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: I love it, and it sounds like you've, you've put the, or…
• 38:37
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: available to us, the audience, there are many different learning styles. Whether you're a reader, whether you're listening to, whether you're an active, interactive person, you've got all different manners to learn this style, but I think the key that you stressed that was so important is that you have to be able to
• 38:55
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Put logical applications of this practice into your day-to-day and start to feel comfortable with it, because it's like learning a foreign language.
• 39:06
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: But it's not as hard, and more beneficial, and something that I think, as us, consummate learners like, it's something that you can put into your everyday life that you can see an ROI on.
• 39:22
  Patrick van der Burght: It's not difficult. I mean, what we've discussed today was not difficult, was it?
• 39:27
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Not at all, not at all. But difficult, like, a foreign language would be, right? You know? Us Americans have a hard time learning foreign languages, so…
• 39:34
  Patrick van der Burght: I think it's much easier than that, but the trick is, first of all, you need to know what it is you're trying to persuade, which is actually the hardest step, and then secondly, you need that habit of looking for it. You're writing an email, and then we need to pause. Okay, what am I actually putting in here to help them decide?
• 39:51
  Patrick van der Burght: That's the habit you gotta get into, and that's probably the hardest part.
• 39:55
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Mmm. So good. Such good stuff.
• 39:58
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Patrick, thank you. Hey listeners, I hope you're walking away with these practical ideas that you can put into your business that will help you be a more profitable and value business. And because you tuned in today, you got just a taste of that, and now it's time to lean forward, and so that's what I'm excited about.
• 40:18
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Okay, and before you go, maybe you want to have a clearer path on revenue and stronger profits? Then go grab your free Profit Booster Growth Map. It'll show you quick ways to
• 40:30
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: Find top opportunities to grow revenue and to stop your profit leaks that may be holding your business back. You can go get it anytime at profitbooster.biz, B-I-Z.
• 40:42
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: And if this episode gave you value, be sure to subscribe and share it with other business owners who might need to hear it.
• 40:50
  Marcia Riner | Profit Booster®: And, we'll look forward to seeing you next week, with more strategies to help you grow smarter and stronger profit. So until then, make your plans and profit with them. Thank you so much, Patrick. This was really valuable.
• 41:03
  Patrick van der Burght: Thanks for having me.