Latest / 🎙️ Rebuild & Fulfill Real conversations on burnout, rebuilding, and becoming stronger than before. / The First Honest Conversation | Episode 13
Transcript
- Kelsey Dunbar: Why is it so hard for people to say, I'm not okay? And why does one honest conversation sometimes change everything? Welcome back to Rebuild and Fulfill. Today we're talking about something simple, but incredibly difficult for most people. Having their first honest conversation. Not the polished version, not the social media version, the real one. Because for a lot of people, opening up feels terrifying. And yet sometimes, one honest conversation can completely change the direction someone is heading in. Why do you think Marc Rogala: Thank you. Kelsey Dunbar: People struggle so much to open up, Marc Rogala: I mean, I think it's a, that's a pretty deep question to start off the bat, but I mean, it's a combination of things. first and foremost, it's, it really is a fear of judgment. I know again, we're in mental health awareness month and the stigma, mental health awareness, all that stuff. We've come a long way, but Kelsey Dunbar: You Marc Rogala: People are afraid that they're gonna be lumped into that stigma of individuals that struggle with mental health and or addiction. And they're worried about it being thrown in their face. They're worried about people judging them. They're worried about people thinking that they're weak when they're not weak at all. There's a vulnerability there because a lot of times it's open, honest and transparency. sometimes when you have... When you have those conversations with individuals, you kind of hear some of their secrets, some of the things that's been going on for quite a while, and they don't like showing that vulnerability. They don't want to be a burden to others, whether a friend, whether it's a relative, affiliate, or whatever it might be. Ego as well. I think they say that the disease of addiction is an eagle-driven disease. You know, people think that they can just work their way out of it a lot of times as well. And, uh, you know, I've seen that happen quite a bit. Uh, specifically, I always say, I've seen the smartest individuals, you know, try to, uh, figure it out themselves, if you will. And the one thing I will tell you that there's no figuring it out yourself. You you can't, you cannot run this. You cannot smart this. It's you need it. You need a team. You need support. You need structure, you know, but it's, it's, it's deep. And a lot of it, you know, even the whole thing about, like I said before, about the sign of weakness, the whole, you know, I'm a male, it's, you know, I'm told to keep my emotions inside. It's a weakness to express my emotions. Um, so a lot of that has to do with the upbringing as well. But it's just not one answer, Kelsey. I mean, it's, definitely multilayered. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I also think huge part of it is a lot of people spent years trying to convince everyone, including themselves, that they're fine. So, AKA denial. And moment you say something out loud, it becomes harder to hide from it. And honestly, I think a lot of people are scared that once they open that door, they'll never know how to close it again. So. My next question for you, Marc. Do you think people sometimes stay quiet because they're afraid of what emotions might come out once they finally start talking? Like what they're going to, what the feelings are going to be like with that vulnerability? Marc Rogala: Well, going back to the last statement that you made, you know, about kind of keeping everything inside. Remember that stat that I gave on two podcasts ago for opening a mental health awareness movement from the, from the, from the time somebody has their first symptom of an underlying mental health condition, whether it be anxiety, depression, panic attacks, whatever it might be to the time they seek out actually help is approximately 12 years. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah, that stat blows me away. Marc Rogala: So I think that that, I think that kind of backs up that statement that you made. Yeah. I mean, as far as emotions go, there's a lot of emotional conversations that happen. Emotions come out. You know, I think that, uh, when we, uh, when we, when we look at ourselves as an individual, we don't really tend to give each other ourselves grace. We give the general public grace. We give our friends grace. We give our relatives grace. But when we look at the person in the mirror, We always expect perfection and that's impossible. when things don't go the they want them to go, and they're dealing with a little depression because something that's going on in their life, maybe a divorce, or they're dealing with some anxiety because of financial stress, they're looking in the mirror saying, well, this should have never happened to me or I should have known better or I should have done a job this evening or what have you. and they look at all the reasons why they put themselves in that position. But yet if they were talking to a friend or a relative that was disclosing that information to them, they would be very supportive, very caring, very loving. And I tell people all the time, I mean, you're never gonna talk to anybody more than you're gonna be talking to yourself in your head. If you're gonna give empathy to a fellow human being, you gotta give empathy and you gotta give grace to yourself as well. And I think that that's so important. And then when you do give yourself a grace and you start speaking out those emotions, you know, mean, people get emotional. I mean, you know, there's a lot of tears shed because of things that have happened, you know, whether it is a divorce, whether it is the financial stress or whether they're dealing with some type of addictive tendencies and they don't understand how they got there, whether it's alcoholism, substances, eating, gambling, whatever it might be. You know, we tend to run. from those emotions, we tend to numb out because we don't want to feel those emotions. you know, once you actually get everything on the table to somebody that you trust, it liberating. And it of feels like the shackles are off your wrist, if you will, ⁓ you know, like you're released from a prison. But at the time, it's a process to get to that point to be able to have those conversations with an individual. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah, for sure. And you've mentioned this before, so I'm gonna let you kind of expand on it, is the fact that most people wait till they're completely in crisis and totally overwhelmed before they talk to anyone. they have to take 10 steps back to where they should have started talking to someone and then you're playing catch up. that certainly is a huge trap, right? Marc Rogala: Yeah, for everything that we mentioned before. mean, quite frankly, I people think a weakness. I thought it was a weakness to share my emotions and to share what was going on on the inside. You know, ⁓ thought it a weakness to talk to somebody about the fact that I would get nervous and have panic attacks, you know, speaking publicly meetings or whatever. I thought I was defective, to be perfectly honest with you. You know, I thought I was weak because I was getting depressive thoughts. And as a result of that, I developed some bad habits. And then I really was dealing with some shame and guilt because I started drinking and then, eating and then put on the weight and then, you know, went down the path that I went down with the prescription pain pills. And now you're dealing with a lot of, a lot of chaos, you know, in your personal life that was created where if I would have sought out the help sooner, maybe I wouldn't have gone down the path of alcoholism or substance use disorder. Maybe I could have got a check a lot quicker and maintain my marriage and maintain that career. mean, it's what I could have, should have. You can't dwell on the past of what I could have done differently. But again, the whole point of this is to bring awareness and we want people to do a self-assessment as far as where they're at right now. And if they think that they need to talk to somebody or they think that they need to make some changes in our life to reach out to us in a safe space so we can give them some guidance. or steer them in the right direction at the very least. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah. And the other thing is I think people really underestimate how exhausting it is to pretend you're okay all the time. I mean, it's just thoroughly exhausting. And instead of just kind of giving into the urge of, man, I got to share this with somebody. I got to share this, this load, you know, then they think to themselves, but man, this is weighing me down so much. The last thing I want to do is, be a burden on someone else. So think a huge reason people stay quiet too is because they don't want to feel like a burden to somebody. I mean, I'm sure you hear that a lot, right? People saying things like, I don't want to dump this on people. Everybody has their own problems. I should be able to handle this myself, that kind of stuff. Marc Rogala: this month. Let's go. Yeah, all the above, but the problem is, is by having that mentality and not seeking out the help, you're going to create, you're going to create chaos for the people that you care about, as opposed to seeking out the help, having those honest conversations and putting a program in place that serves you to kind of break through that threshold that we always talk about and not potentially go into full blown crisis. And again, I want reiterate as well, because I think it's important. I personally think the reason why there is this stigma out there is because people do wait. People don't have those conversations. They get to the point 12 years down the road where they're dealing with something, whether it's some type of addictive issue, they're in crisis mode as far as the mental health goes, their life's in complete disarray and complete chaos. And then... That's what you hear out there a lot of times, okay, the ending. know, when people are finally saying, okay, enough's enough, I can't do this on my own, I need some help. But if people would address this sooner, just like a physical once year, like a mental health checkup once a year, where am I at right now? What changes do I need to make with my diet, my mindset, my affirmations, whatever it might be, do a in every single year. it's going to prevent you from going down that path. I mean, it just boggles in my mind that we do physical checkups every year, but we don't do mental health checkups every year. Your health is your health. Kelsey Dunbar: Absolutely. And you know, the same people that, this is kind of funny, this is I just thought of, the same people that worry about being a burden on someone else, thing that's so sad about that ⁓ that those are the same people that usually would drop everything to help someone else, but yet they don't want to do it for someone else. And I actually want to use an example of this. And a sad story. I had a guy come to me ⁓ and he was me about when he was going through a rough time, he had this friend. that was always there for him. And he helped him through a lot. mean, they were like brothers. And I mean, the families were really close and everything. And this was always there to help him out. And he was, ⁓ you know, was open with how he was feeling. And this guy was there for him for everything. And then one night he gets a call in the middle of the night from the guy's wife that his friend took his own life and shot himself. So he was that guy that was there for him. But he never wanted to let his friend know that he was struggling too, because I think he was so worried about trying to make sure he was there for him and not to be a burden the same friend that was constantly coming to him. I mean, it's sad story and I'm sure lots of people like that that just want to help everyone else but don't know how to ask for help themselves. So yeah, it's terrible ⁓ And that's we advocate, having a conversation with somebody. mean, you got to have a circle of trust, at least somebody, whether it's family, whether it's a friend, or maybe even a complete stranger on a 9-8-8 number. You know, I mean, you got to be able to talk about your stuff. you know, and then, yeah, go ahead. Marc Rogala: So, yeah, why didn't interrupt? I'll finish your statement. Sorry. Kelsey Dunbar: ⁓ no, please, just go ahead. Marc Rogala: No, I just wanted to something about this really quick. Why do you think he was so quick to help others? Kelsey Dunbar: because he knew what it was like. Yep. Marc Rogala: Absolutely. Absolutely. heard stories quite a bit in the recovery world and in ⁓ the health realm. Kelsey Dunbar: I mean, all you gotta do is look at us. I mean, you've always been that guy, I've always been that guy that tries to be there for everybody else. And we've obviously had our struggles. So yeah, I mean, it perfectly lines up, but we have to be able to accept help, not just give it. Marc Rogala: That's all we have. 100%. Absolutely. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah. So another thing that I noticed is that, people sometimes also wait for the perfect way to open up or the perfect time. ⁓ Like need the right words, or be to explain it articulately or like sit back and go, okay, I want to talk about this, but I don't even know where to start. I'm not even sure I completely understand myself. So, I mean, if you wanted to give some advice out there for people just not knowing how to start that conversation, you know, where Where would you tell them to just get started with it? Marc Rogala: with like a relative are you talking like with the spouse or whatever Kelsey Dunbar: And anyone, that person that's kind of sitting back saying, I'm waiting for the right words, the right way to explain it. need to have a complete understanding myself of what's going on before I try and bring anybody else into it. I just don't know how to start the conversation. Marc Rogala: Well, I don't know if you're ever gonna get a complete understanding as far as what's going on. Yeah, I mean, you're just not. I mean, I look at myself and I to invoke my personal situation, but I it as an example. I don't necessarily like talking about myself to the audience, but like with me, and you and I have talked about this. I mean, I was doing everything and anything, but I was living my life like an oxymoron at the end. Kelsey Dunbar: Exactly! Marc Rogala: I mean, I tell people all the time. frustrates me when I hear somebody talk about their loved one or their friend and say, they just don't want it. Okay, or they don't want it bad enough. Trust me when I tell you the people that are in crisis mode and or dealing with various addictions, they want it. They want it more than their friends, their relatives, their colleagues and so forth. They just don't know how to get it. You can go on a quest for education all day. Because when I said I live my life like an oxymoron at the end, I mean, I was drinking and popping pills, know, wasted. But guess what I was doing? Watching videos about inspiring stories on recovery, like the AA meetings, okay, the AA meeting, people sharing their stories of how they got sober. watching videos about some of the stuff that we talked about in the last podcast about diet and nutrition and exercise and dopamine and serotonin and things like that. I did a pretty good job of, ⁓ of self-educating myself, but at the same time, I never got the answer to why, why did this happen to me? You know, so ⁓ ahead. Sorry. Kelsey Dunbar: I just wanted to explain to the audience You said twice ⁓ in the in your answer that at the end at the end And know what you mean by that is at the end of your addiction before you got sober, but Marc Rogala: Yeah. Yeah. Kelsey Dunbar: I can't help myself from thinking that in your subconscious mind, the end was like the end of Marc 1.0 and now we've got Marc 2.0. It was like a rebirth. just you're completely born again a different person. And I know that from knowing you as well as I do, but for audience, I think that they really don't understand how much you are, that Marc 1.0, this is 2.0. Marc Rogala: WHAAAT Kelsey Dunbar: I learned from Marc 1.0, but that's not who I am anymore. I don't even know how to relate to that guy. Marc Rogala: Got to you a quick little story. We're going to roll here for a little bit, but it's kind of cool. So young man, keep in touch with him regularly. He was struggling with his mental health and addictions and he's very coachable, doing everything by the book. And he messaged me a little while ago, this afternoon, but I didn't get a chance to respond to it a little while ago. Kelsey Dunbar: Please. Marc Rogala: And for whatever reason, I kind of felt like it was getting close to his 30 day mark, 30 days in sobriety. So I said, Hey man, I what's your sober date? He goes, today's 30 days. I go, see, I kind of had a feeling that it was. So, you know, his sober date was April of 2026. So I said, you know, what's beautiful about your sober date? I said, that's your second birthday. I said, and I got to be perfectly honest with you. And I just messaged him this, my second birthday, it's probably more important than my actual birthday. where I'm at right now. So it's weird that you brought that up because literally right before we jumped on this podcast, I just messaged him that on Facebook, Facebook messenger. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah, like I said, you didn't realize it, but in your last explanation, you mentioned twice at the end, at the end. And I've heard you say that before, but like I said, know, it just kind of translates in my mind because I know you so well ⁓ ⁓ really is like a rebirth. but getting to how we start those conversations, I just, I wanted to kind of, you know, give a couple of, you know, maybe a couple ideas ⁓ of to start the conversation. Cause obviously since I came up with a question, I wanted to come up with it. Marc Rogala: point Kelsey Dunbar: of potential answers but you know if you're talking to somebody even the statement like I don't even know how to explain this or I've been struggling and then dot dot dot continue from there or you can even just tell somebody you know I really need to talk because something just feels off and then honestly that's enough somebody who cares about you is just gonna let talk or let you sit in silence until you can talk you know it doesn't have to be perfect you could always fix ⁓ Marc Rogala: Thank Kelsey Dunbar: whatever it is that you say that you're like, well, maybe not really like that, maybe more like this. who cares about you, it doesn't matter how you start the conversation, just start it. So that's just my little piece of advice there. ⁓ to the next point, ⁓ what makes people feel safe? So what would actually make someone feel comfortable enough to open up? Like what advice would you give there? Marc Rogala: That's the resolution. Thank you. It's usually somebody that has an understanding of what you're going through. I mean, like, for me, but for others as well that I've worked with, once there's a relationship established and the individual has an idea of what you're going through, the walls usually come down and basically it's uncensored conversation and a lot of truth's coming out. And that's what I preach to people all the time is I want to be open, honest and transparency. I don't care what it is. I don't care what you did. I don't care what you're struggling with, what drugs you put in your body, how much alcohol you were drinking, how much money you gambled away, how much food you're eating. I want to know the truth because the truth is going to liberate you. No half truths, no keeping secrets. I'm a big believer that secrets on the inside are like cancers. It's just going to fester on the inside and create more chaos. A hundred percent being truthful. Now it doesn't need to be elegant, the conversation. It doesn't necessarily need to be a clean conversation. You know, we're getting graded on points as far as what your presentation style is, right? Okay. Let's just have a conversation. I think that that's so important. You know, mean, a lot of times people don't know where to start, but once they start talking and I'm listening, I can relate for sure. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah, I mean, that's why, and audiences heard this, we talk about this all the time, but that's one of the reasons why we do this work is because we get people to open up about things that I don't even know if they're ready to tell their therapist about because their therapist, like, ⁓ they may know what I'm talking about and they may have education on what I'm talking about, but if they haven't been through this themselves, it feels like it's a little bit harder for them to not feel like they're going to be judged. But then people like you and I were like, we've probably made more mistakes than we have answers, but at least we can sit here and listen and say, yeah, we've messed up too. We've, gone through a lot and we've worked with people who've gone through a lot that we haven't gone through. So there's nothing that anyone's going to tell us that's going to have any shock factor, you know, with us. And I that people just feel that from us and That's why it's so easy for them to talk to us and why, you know, we say this all the time. We make ourselves available to our community. And so if people need to reach out, they certainly can do that and know that even if they don't feel like they've got that person in their life, which I think maybe they're selling some people short in their life that they probably would have people to go to. But if they're ever even feel, if that ever feels like the case, definitely you can come talk to us. So I just wanted to put that out there. Marc Rogala: I just say one more thing too? But let's talk to the relatives. Let's say a relative actually comes to you, okay, and discloses that they're feeling depressed or they're having anxious feelings or maybe they got some trauma that they kept a secret for a long time, or maybe they're dealing with some type of addictive issue. You know, obviously you want to be supportive. Obviously you want to be loving. You want to try to support them as best as you possibly can. ⁓ it's above pedigree in the sense that you don't have knowledge in that arena either. Okay. There are support groups out there for relatives of individuals that struggle with mental health and or addiction. And you actually get support. from other relatives that have it in their family, learn from those relatives, no different than somebody who struggles with their mental health and their addictive component learns from us in recovery. It's the same exact concept. know, so just like we sometimes, just like we were on a quest for education, those people closest to the individual that's struggling a little bit, they can be on a quest for education as well. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah, absolutely. That's a good point. mean, obviously you're closer to that support world I am. So I'm glad that you remind of things like that. And of course our audience, because we're not in that world. And so if guys need some of those references from Marc, mean, definitely send him a DM. He's connected to a lot of different groups that can provide that type of support. So that's awesome. But another. big mistake that people make is trying to solve everything immediately. And that's both the person and the person that they would go to. mean, the person that they go to, they're like, okay, how can I help them fix this? Or that person who's struggling and they're like, okay, so I to do this and I need to do this. people don't all the answers right in the beginning. What they need more than anything right off the bat is that feeling of safety. Marc Rogala: the Kelsey Dunbar: And once they have that feeling of safety and feeling like they can be, as Marc likes to say, open, honest and transparent, that is a great place to start. So, if they can be honest and, know, without being analyzed, corrected, minimized, you know, just, just listen. So what do you think that, openness from somebody, who's listening, Marc Rogala: Okay. I'm sorry. Kelsey Dunbar: What does that look like? What would your advice be to somebody who has a loved one come to them and say, how would you want to start helping someone besides saying just the words, I'm here and I'll listen? And what are some ideas there for that? Marc Rogala: So. Thank Well... What you talking about, like if I went to my parents? I mean, I would want them to be supportive in a variety of areas. mean, I want them to, ⁓ to get educated. Two, maybe go to some meetings with me. Three, you know, maybe help create a little structure that's gonna keep my mental health in check and drive my sobriety, whatever that structure looks Four, ⁓ remind me of the positives of my life, even if I tend to be a little negative, know, focus on positive affirmations, glass half full versus half empty, you know, basically hold me accountable on things that I need to do and that I need to change and by moving that needle and change it over a period of time, that's going to help drive my recovery. Don't be saying you should be doing this or you should be going to a meeting, you know, or you should be further along. because that's just gonna make me feel small. You know what I'm saying? That's just gonna make me feel small or you're the one that put yourself in this position now we're gonna, I mean, you wanna talk in a loving way. wanna use I statements versus you statements. I feel this way versus you make me feel this way. Try not to be combative because the that's confiding in you is in a fragile state. a very fragile state and saying the wrong thing, know, could lead more chaos. Kelsey Dunbar: Are there any other suggestions that you have as far as, you know, things that you don't want to say that people just shut down because of? They could actually make people feel worse. Marc Rogala: Well, I wouldn't interrupt them. I wouldn't tell them things are going to be okay when they're obviously not feeling okay. I wouldn't try providing solutions when they're trying to get their feelings out. You know, I just, would, again, I would just sit and listen. I mean, I don't know. mean, I'm a salesman. I sold insurance for 30 years. So I do that very well. Once people start speaking. You find out a lot of information, a lot of information. And if there's walls up, I guess it depends on where I'm at, but if there's walls up, you know, and somebody's struggling with, you know, some mental health or some type of addictive component, sometimes I'll go first to try to break down those walls and be like, listen, I, you know, I kind of understand where you're coming from. I'm in recovery myself. I got a dual diagnosis, major depressive, anxiety. PTSD diagnosis, but my story's heavily weighted on alcohol and substance. So I know what you're, in a sense, what you're dealing with. Usually the second I do that, I'm sitting and listening for 45 minutes. Literally. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just in a summary, people don't want to feel analyzed. They just want to feel understood. That's really it. So the next thing I want to talk about is, and we've talked about this before, social media versus real conversation. And this is important too, because we live in a time where people share constantly online, but still feel deeply alone. ⁓ And for one thing, we ⁓ get a chuckle sometimes when ⁓ people out to us and this, thing you guys are doing, I mean, this is, this is really blowing up and you guys are doing great. And it like, as if we don't a care in the world and we're on cloud nine or we're at the top of the mountain looking down at everyone else. And it's ridiculous. Marc and I have of struggles that we go through on a regular basis, just like anybody else. But why do you think it is that look at something in social media and just start making assumptions? Marc Rogala: ⁓ yeah. Kelsey Dunbar: Or why would that be a problem? Marc Rogala: I mean. who usually put the good out to the galaxy. They don't talk about what's going on in their lives. I mean, that was my aha moment. Remember I told you this before. know, when my cousin passed away, the way she passed away in May of 2021 and I was coming up on a year sober, man, I thought I was this rare bird or rare species that went down this path and I was defective. And I mean, yeah, it was almost a year sober, but I was still dealing with lot of shame and guilt, man. I mean, I It wasn't like I was coming out saying, know, got a dual diagnosis patient and I got an underlying mental health diagnosis and I'm sober off of alcohol and drugs for almost a year. But when she passed away, I'm like, you know what, I can't keep this a secret anymore because if it helps person, it's worth any feelings that I got going on the inside. I mean, again, I was not literal. I didn't put. Literally, I'm a drug addict and alcohol living a life of recovery. I just posted little memes, but you can read between the lines. I, I was just dumbfounded. I was. ⁓ mean, I worked in the insurance industry for many years ago, reaching out people that we went to high school with past acquaintances. mean, it was, ⁓ it was the point where it became overwhelming. And I realized this everyday shit. I mean, this affects just about every household out there. I everybody knows somebody that struggles with mental health and there are some type of addictive tendencies. And sometimes it just takes you be to drive the dialogue for people again, to feel comfortable, to be able to share with you. And I just, was absolutely shocked because you know, what I paid attention to was their trips, you know, their new... cars, which is what they're posting on Facebook and their new home and, you know, their kids graduating from college with a master's degree or whatever it might be. You know, but nobody talks about life, hard days of life on social media for the most part, for the most part. You know, it's just the positives out there and you get stuck and you ⁓ get, you get in that trap. That really can drive your mental health in a negative way because you think that you should be so much better off than where you're at right now. You know, as in my case of almost 52 year old male. But that's when we, when we talk to people, we remind people the only competition is the person in the mirror and the only competition is the person that you were yesterday versus today. And we just want to move the needle. I mean, it's just all these pressures out there of keeping up with the Joneses and You know, I gotta do this or I gotta do that or I gotta go on, you know, three vacations here, whatever the hell it is, man. That don't mean shit at the end of the day. It really doesn't. You know, but that's what people put out there. Kelsey Dunbar: Absolutely. so basically ⁓ takeaway from that is the fact that, you make real connections. mean, send DMs, you know, get on phone calls. Don't just assume that just because you have a friend that you haven't talked to in a long time, but you know, they regularly post something positive that means their, their life is amazing. And they don't even have time for a conversation with you because they're living this lifestyle of luxury and this, that and the other. ⁓ And think we all know plenty of people that live outside of their means. So it looks like they're doing so well for themselves. And honestly, they can't even sleep at night because of all the debt they've accrued from the vacations, the cars, the houses, ⁓ the tuitions and things like that. ⁓ you if you have people in your life that you care about, don't just wait till ⁓ you the posts are supposed to like turn to a different way. ⁓ Marc Rogala: Okay. Okay. ⁓ Kelsey Dunbar: where it's like, okay, they're not bragging anymore. Now they're saying I'm in trouble. Now it's time to talk to them. They're not gonna post that they're in trouble. keep connections up. So that's just my thing there. Cause a conversation, people are a lot more likely to be real than just whatever they're posting on social media. Marc Rogala: is not. ⁓ goes back to how we started this conversation about why people don't like asking for help. Ego. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah, 100%. So, right, so next thing I want to bring up, signs someone need a conversation. So what are things that we want to look for in people ⁓ that be a tip that maybe a conversation is something that they might be looking for or you want to try and see if, that's something that you should get involved with. What are some of the signs we might want to look for? Marc Rogala: Obviously, if somebody starts withdrawing from their friends, isolating themselves, not being very social, I think that's a huge red flag. You know, somebody that maybe enjoyed sports or enjoyed some pleasure activities and all of a sudden they're not engaging in what gave them great pleasure before. That is a warning sign for sure. Sleeping all the time, you know, is a major sign of depression, you know, which I get it. Your body is pretty beat up because it's, trying to survive. I mean, I often tell people, like when I was dealing with my mental health, I mean, I sometimes felt like I was a boxer that went 12 rounds and it was hard to get out of bed in the morning, you know, just extremely lethargic brain fog, you know, and then, you know, some of the obvious, man, I mean, people. drinking a little too much or maybe going to the dispensary or stopping at the gas station and playing some slot machines or eating, you know, maybe their diet changed and all of a sudden they went from eating pretty good to all of a sudden they're eating a high sugar diet with a lot of candy and things like that. I mean, those are all forms of like self medication because they're trying to soothe what's going on in the inside. I mean, there's a lot of different factors, but those are the big ones right off the bat. Kelsey Dunbar: There were a couple of those that I didn't think of. There are a few of them I did and a couple of them that I didn't. So that was an awesome answer to that question because I just learned a couple of things right there. So yeah, just be open-minded to things that just don't seem typical of them. And I think that kind of, know, a lot of that stuff kind of fits in that. But, you know, it's not always the easiest thing to diagnose. So the more you just make yourself accessible to conversations, the more those things might make themselves a little bit more. You know and then of course, you know sometimes the people struggling the most are actually the ones That are trying hardest to convince everyone that they're fine ⁓ So it's like, they're going through something and you're like, okay, so I know this happened to them Let me check on them. How are you doing and they're like, I'm good. I'm good. I'm good I mean, yeah, I mean, you know those tough, but I mean, you know, I'm good. I'm good It just sounds like they're trying too hard to convince you. I think that's that actually can be a sign sometimes too All right next question. So what if someone doesn't open up like you really have that gut feeling that somebody's going through something getting them to try to talk is is like like pulling teeth. so I mean this is important one So, ⁓ you know if someone ready to open up, what would you do? Marc Rogala: I wouldn't push. Okay. What I would do now would be very different than what I would have done way back when. And I would just try to try to provide maybe a little education with like through some like memes, you know, should a text message here about positivity or you know, a mindset, you know, I'm here for you, you know, things of that nature. You know, get my point across, you know, that I'm here and I can kind of send somethings off and when the time is right, I'm ready to have a conversation, but don't push. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah, yeah, you can't force honesty, but you can create space for it, is the way I like to look at it. And you know what Marc and I have done in the last nine months? We can something's going on and they're not ready to talk about it. Guess what? We send them a book. I mean, that's one of the reasons why we wrote it. It's just, it's a great way to say, I'm putting this your radar because I kind of feel like you're going through something, but I understand you're not ready to talk about it. Maybe. ⁓ check out this book, see if there's anything in it that can help you, or maybe it gives you an idea of something that you might wanna talk about. And so honestly, I feel spoiled in the fact that we have that book because really feel like that's a pretty easy segue for us ⁓ lean on to be like, ⁓ this book, maybe me some feedback on it after you read it. Like, ⁓ what you find valuable with it? So it's like own personal cheat code. Marc Rogala: Thank you. Kelsey Dunbar: So, then sometimes, just consistency matters a lot more ⁓ than them, just like, checking in on them, like, hey, how's your day going? Kind of thing. You're not necessarily saying, hey, give me everything that you got going on. Just like, was today better than yesterday? ⁓ cool. I'm glad to hear that. You know, something like that. which is kind of almost like saying, I'm here if you need me. It's like that little reminder, which can mean a lot more to people than you realize, just saying, Marc Rogala: Bye. Thank you. Kelsey Dunbar: I'm here. I'm not going to push, but I'm here. all right. The next one, the first conversation isn't the last. So I think another is one where one fixes everything. Like we got to hammer it all out now. We got to talk about everything and we got to start trying to put together a plan and so what do you think of that philosophy, Marc? All in one. Marc Rogala: I mean, again, I mean, are we talking about somebody that is to that needs help? Are we talking about a friend that I'm sensing that something's off? I mean, that's because I deal with all these situations. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah, but I don't believe that you ⁓ that you under the misconception ⁓ that you get everything out all at once and fix everything all at once. ⁓ So, I that we can both agree that you to be in this for the long haul when you're opening up to someone, they're not saying, OK, I'm going to listen one time and then I'm done. And for that person that's listening. You're not trying to say, okay, give me everything, because I only want to have this conversation once. So there's no one and done. Marc Rogala: If it's if it's somebody I really don't have a relationship with, like somebody says, hey, Marc, can you please talk to my son? Or, hey, Marc, you talk to my boyfriend? He's struggling a little bit. It literally is just trying to, it's almost like an icebreaker. Let them feel comfortable with you. Let them know that you have an understanding of what they're going through. If they want to share more information, that's great. If they don't want to share more information, that's fine too. But least they know that you're a resource and somebody that is supportive in their corner for somewhere down the road if they want to open up some more. And then quite frankly, sometimes when that icebreaker happens, you know, and they feel really comfortable with you, I mean, literally could, that can go from a short conversation a guy for three and a half hours very first time I met him. Talking about his whole life and his military background and some of the things he was subjected to in the military and what he's got going on in the inside. He got it all on a table. I never met him before that day. I'll sit there and listen. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah. that's why I started talking about that is because I just know that from your own personal story and how you've interacted with people where talk to somebody and someone might ask you to talk to that person like one time, just to kind of get the momentum going type thing. And with it's anything but because even if you feel like you made a major impact on that person, I you well enough to know there's no, Marc doesn't follow up. Marc always follows up. He goes through his phone on a daily basis, looks at who he's got a message back, who he's got a call to. but there's, it's ongoing conversations. It's starting to build the trust and the honesty is going to grow over time. So there's no one dramatic breakthrough moment. So if you feel like you've had that first conversation, you're like, man, I don't feel like we really resolved anything. It's okay. You're not necessarily supposed to. It's just to get people to start opening up. Marc Rogala: No. Kelsey Dunbar: and feel a little bit better about the fact that they are opening up, right? Yeah. Marc Rogala: Yeah. No, I mean, it's, and again, it can go either way, but don't know. I mean, my findings are as once they realized that I have an understanding of what they're going through, either on the mental health or addiction side, usually like a book. Very seldom do they not open up and give me the whole story. And I I, can't explain that. it's just how is. But then again, I mean, look at myself. I felt more comfortable talking to people, again, at AA meetings, guest speakers in the hospitals, than anybody in my family, and certainly any therapist or any psychiatrist, because they understood, one, what I was going through, but they also understood. How did it get in their recovery? And they were putting it in English as far as the things I needed to do. they have an education that maybe my parents couldn't provide because they got an experience there because they got the school hard knocks. I always felt more comfortable initially talking to strangers ⁓ had their live life experience. I think that's why what we do is why we do it is so important. And I've just seen that in my everyday work, Kelsey. I mean, you and I talk offline all the time. I mean, it's amazing some of the stuff that I see and I hear and what people work, where and when people approach me. I mean, it's kind of surreal, to be honest with you. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah, yeah, we really thought that this, topic was really relevant mental health awareness, especially because, as we're trying to create awareness, we're trying to get people to, to open up more and to feel okay about having first conversation. So I would just like to end this with one simple takeaway. One conversation might not solve everything, but it can interrupt isolation, create connection. build trust and remind someone that they're not carrying alone. So what we've learned through our work with people who are struggling is this, you always have to stay open to that first conversation because for a lot of people, the first honest moment is incredibly difficult. And when someone finally chooses to open up, it matters ⁓ you respond. It really does. It not start perfectly. It may not come out clearly, and it may not end with some big breakthrough moment. But if you truly listen and genuinely show that you care, you're already doing more good than you probably realize. And if you're someone who knows you need to have that kind of conversation, just find that person in your life who knows how to listen without judgment, because the truth is everyone is going through something. And sometimes your honesty gives another person permission to feel honest, that they can be honest too. And that's how connection starts. And that's how healing starts. And if you feel like you don't have that person right now, as I said, Marc Rogala: Welcome. ⁓ Kelsey Dunbar: ⁓ Marc arrived, you know, from, suffer to tougher ⁓ our, our S2T nation is our Facebook, page. And we have a community stronger together with S2T. you will definitely find a lot of, truly, like-minded type people that would be open to a conversation as well. So just, please know, you can always reach out to us or members of our community. And, and that just makes us feel great. Marc Rogala: Okay. Kelsey Dunbar: that you have that trust in us and we don't take that lightly. So, definitely reach out when you need to find that person for yourself or we will provide you that person if need be. And just always remember you're not broken, you're just overloaded and you're not alone. So I appreciate you being here and ⁓ thank you for taking the time to listen to our podcast tonight. Marc Rogala: Okay.