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Lindsay Clancy- An Objective Mental Health Perspective · Millennial Mental Health Channel

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to MMHC, your go to mental health podcast.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: I'm Eddie Coreo, a licensed professional counselor.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: And I'm Justin Romano, a Board certified Child and Adolescent psychiatrist.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: We created MMHC to give listeners evidence based information directly
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: from professionals who work in mental health.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: We're not influencers, We're not trying to sell you anything.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: We just want to bring love, empathy, and understanding of
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: mental health into this world.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: And we really think that learning about mental health should
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: be fun, interesting, and most importantly honest.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: So thanks for tuning in. This is a show by
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: two millennials, but it is intended to be for everyone.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: We hope you enjoy the show and welcome back to MMHC. Today,
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: we have a little bit more of a serious topic,
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: something that we wanted to dive into because we've had
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: multiple requests of people wanting an episode out of this.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: But yeah, just kick us off here. Eddie, how are
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: you feeling, man?
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: I'm I think good. I'm getting ready to get back
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: to work. Summer is over. I go back to work
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: next week. I see students a week after. Pretty much.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: I'm starting my intro to Diagnosis class that I'm teaching
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: at the master's program that I teach at right around
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: the same time, so I'm just ready to get into fall.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: It's gonna be nice to get back into a routine.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: I've missed a routine for sure, So I think good overall.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: How are you doing? Doing pretty good?
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: Lots of family time. Just crazy that summer is coming
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: to an end. Man, it's already it flies by so fast. Yeah,
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: but hey, yeah, ready for another good year. Hopefully gets
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: a skiing in this year. Hopefully Colorado actually snows this year.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: I know winter was weird last year. We'll see how
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: it was weird in Oregon too, so we'll see what
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: we get. I feel like I saw somewhere. I can
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: never really trust it, though, right because they'll try to
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: do like a forecast for like the months ahead. They
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: were saying maybe a cool, dry fall winter. I don't know.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: I don't know if we yes, you never know, you
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: never know. Yeah.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: I just think the most important thing is that the
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: Broncos look like they're going to be good this year,
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: so you know, I think that's not.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: It could be good.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: Mendoza looks good, and.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: The Fernandelreian let's go. I like it.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: We should probably have a big bet this year. So
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Eddie's actually going to come out and see the Broncos
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Raiders game in Denver with me, So we're pretty pumped.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: We might have to do an episode of Person or something.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: I'm so excited. I don't think I've ever seen well
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: I've seen the Raiders play like against the forty nine ers,
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: like in the forty nine ers stadium, but I think
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: I've only been to preseason, so I've actually never seen
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: the Raiders outside of the home stadium. So well, I
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: will behave I promise, Yeah, you might get.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: Into just a few fights in the stadium, just yeah, yeah,
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: especially for a big old Raiders jersey.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: They're yeah, I'm ready.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: Well, let's dive into it. We do want to give
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: a little bit of a content warning for this episode
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: because it has to do with the viral and an
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: ongoing Lindsey Clancy trial. If you're not familiar, we want
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: to give you the content warning right now. This case
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: deals with the topics of murder of minors, suicide, self harming,
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Perry partam, depression, and more so, if you feel like
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: these topics may be too difficult to listen to, this
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: may be a good episode to skip for you.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, our biggest thing with this is we want to
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: be as objective as possible. Justin and I probably me
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: a lot of the time, give a lot of opinions,
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: a lot of feelings related to things. We want to
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: be really objective with this because it is really delicate.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: It's a huge thing going on right now. Because of
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: the phenomenon that is social media, we know a lot
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: of information about a trial like this, more than probably
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: ever before, well maybe the oj trial, but you know,
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: social media, we have information about things all the time,
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: and it is a lot of people aware of this
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: that probably would not have been without social media. So
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: we want to be as objective as possible. I do
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: also want to acknowledge we are two men. We have
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: no idea what it's like to experience postpartum depression. Doesn't
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: matter that we're mental health providers. We have no idea
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: what it's like to give birth to children ourselves. Again,
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: we want this to be as objective as possible. On
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: the mental health side of things, we want to kind
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: of just give it to you in as plain as
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: English as possible, because I think there's a lot of diagnoses,
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: a lot of words getting thrown around, and if you
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: don't know what they mean, it could be hard to
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: understand where everything's coming from. And then you watch a
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: video on TikTok and this person says this is what
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: this means, but they're totally wrong. So we don't want
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: that to happen. We want you to be as informed
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: a consumer as possible. Again, with social media, there's a
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: lot of misinformation in misinformation going around. Along with that,
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of very serious allegations coming from what
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: I call armchair lawyers on social media. So we really
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: want to again, we want to be objective. I will
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: say this probably the rest of the episod because it
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: is important to us. We want there to be facts.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: We want to look at the mental health side of
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: things because that part we can speak on. We're not
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: going to diagnose anybody. We're not gonna dispute diagnoses whatever
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: it is. We're just going to go off the factual
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: information that the public has been given. We want to
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: make it clear this trial is not about whether or
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: not Lindsay Clancy did this. From our understanding of the
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: information presented, it is basically about whether or not Lindsay
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: is criminally responsible for what happened, or if she was,
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: she was in such an incapacitated state that she was
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: not aware of what was going on when the events happened.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: That's what it is about. It's not about trying to
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: put the blame on somebody else. It's not about trying
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: to go after the healthcare system. I've heard there's some
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: lawsuits from the family towards like the providers of Lindsay
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: because of everything gone on. That's totally separate. Basically, the
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: defense is arguing Lindsay was not in a coherent enough
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: headspace mentally when this happened. The prosecution saying she was
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: and that it was calculated and she made these decisions
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: with sound mind. That is what is being argued. Are
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: there huge lapses in the judgment on the part of
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: her ex husband, her family, the treatment team, the mental
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: health system in the US, the hospital she checked herself into.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: Are there lapses probably, But ultimately this case, this trial
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: is just looking at her mental state leading up to
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: this and what is kind of the what happened, why
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: and why this happened, and why she did what happened
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: on those days. Also, what I will add this is
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: not a she's either going to be free or she's
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: going to prison. It's essentially she's either going to prison
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: or she will be I don't like this term, but
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: she'll be what called like mentally what is it like
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: the they're looking for, like an insanity case essentially.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, guilty by reason of insanity.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: Yes, So if they go that where it's not to
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: mean that she's now free to go. She will spend
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: an indefinite amount of time in a psychiatric hospital facility
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: like that is where her sentence essentially is going to
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: be until other things are determined. Right, So that's that
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: is where we're at. I feel like that was pretty
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: pretty objective, pretty factual, So I will keep checking myself
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: as we continue. Justin I will let you start to
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: start us off with the timeline, but we want to
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: reverse this a little bit. It's twenty twenty six right now.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: We are looking at late twenty twenty two to early
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty three is when this all takes place.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: So in late twenty twenty two, Lindsey Clancy, a thirty
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: two year old labor and delivery nurse from Duxbury, Massachusetts,
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: begins suffering from severe anxiety depression and mental health struggles
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: following the birth of her third child. Over the coming months,
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: she sees multiple medical professionals and has prescribed a rotation
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: of thirteen different psychiatric medications.
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: From January first to January fifth, twenty twenty three, she
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: was seeking help for a deterior in mental health state,
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: so she voluntarily admitted herself to McLean Hospital. This is
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: a psychiatric facility in Belmont, Massachusetts. She's then discharged essentially
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: on the fifth of January, after doctors determined she is
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: not suicidal or not homicidal. I will just speak on
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: our experience, justin correct me if I'm wrong. When this happens,
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: it is typically because the hospital staff determined that there
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: is no imminent risk to self or imminent risk to others.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: They're saying that Lindsay is not gonna leave and hurt herself,
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: and she's not gonna leave and hurt others. That is
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: what they most likely determined when they discharged her.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: Yes, and we've actually talked about the McLean Hospital on
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: the show quite a bit because they're actually like the
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: leaders in research for borderline personality disorder. Oh So, I
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: thought it was interesting to read that in this story.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: Because I was like, oh, I'm very familiar with that hospital,
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: and when I'm doing screeners for borderline personality disorder, I'll
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: use the McLean BPD screener. Oh so yeah, I just
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: said there was a fun little tie into the other
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: things that we've talked about in January twenty twenty three.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: January twenty third, Lindsay attends a virtual appointment with her psychiatrist.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: She reports feeling anxious, in and motivated, but doctors later
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: testify she showed no signs of active psychosis or intent
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: to harm her family.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: We gave a content warning ahead of time. We'll give
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: one more right now if you decided that you want
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: to listen a little more. We're about to get into
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: the more difficult details of the situation. So that is our,
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: i think, our last content warning, because the rest will
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: just kind of keep talking. On January twenty fourth, twenty
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: twenty three, from about four pm to five pm, Lindsay
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: asked her husband Patrick to run two specific errands. One
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: was to pick up prescription medication at a local CVS,
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: and the other was to order takeout from a takeout
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: food from a restaurant in nearby Plymouth.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: On January twenty fourth, from five point fifteen to six pm,
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: while Patrick is out, Lindsay takes her three children, Cora,
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: who's five, Dawson, who's three, and Callan, who's a months,
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: to the basement and strangles them using exercise resistance bands.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: She then slashes her wrists and neck and jumps from
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: a second story window and again.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: On the same day, at around six ten pm, Patrick
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: returned home. He found blood, and he called nine to
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: one one. Emergency responders discovered Lindsay in the yard and
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: the three children unresponsive in the basement. Unfortunately, Cora and
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: Dawson were pronounced dead at the hospital, while baby Callen
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: ended up on life support immediately after.
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: On January twenty seventh, the eight month old Callen passed
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: away at the Boston Children's Hospital. Meanwhile, Patrick posts an
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: online statement asking the public to forgive Lindsey, writing that
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: the woman who did this was not the real Lindsay,
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: but someone who was sick.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: On February seven, twenty twenty three, Lindsay is formally arranged
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: from her hospital bed via zoom. Defense attorneys revealed that
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: the fall left her permanently paralyzed from the waist down.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: If you've seen any clips of the trial, belief she
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: is in a wheelchair the whole time, and she's held
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: in medical custody without bail.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: Then, in late twenty twenty three through twenty twenty five,
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: Lindsay remains in hospitalized and she remains hospitalized and undergoing
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: physical and psychiatric care while her legal team prepares an
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: insanity defense citing postpartum psychosis and medication induced impairment.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: Throughout twenty twenty four and twenty twenty five, the court
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: held multiple hearings regarding evidence sharing. This included legal battles
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: over accessing notes and raw audio from third party media interviews,
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: state police digital forensic assessments, and setting strict deadlines for
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: expert witness record exchanges.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: The trial was initially targeted for early twenty twenty six. However,
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: in late twenty twenty five, Plymouth Superior Court Judge William
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: Sullivan granted defense motions to push the official trial state
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: trial start date to July twenty, twenty twenty six, to
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: allow both sides adequate time to prepare the list of
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: nearly two hundred potential witness.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: And that brings us to now July twenty twenty six.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: The trial has formally begun in the Plymouth Superior Court
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: Patrick Clancy. Medical experts, toxicologists, and first responders have taken
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: the stand to testify regarding Lindsay's state of mind, online searches,
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: and psychiatric care leading up to the tragedy. As of
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: August seventeenth, twenty twenty six, I believe the prosecution has rested.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: It is now going to go to the defense. And
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: I think one of the biggest findings, or at least
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: things that happen on the stand today was Lindsay's mother
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: had said that Lindsay had texted her leading up to
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: the events that took place and told her mother directly
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: that she was worried because she was having thoughts of
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: harming the children. O yike. Yeah, it's heavy, man, It's
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: a lot, and I don't know. I just have a
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: hard time. It's social media. And I think people on
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: social media who enjoy the TikTok viral this, the Instagram
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: real viralness, the Twitter all the stuff, the Facebook viralness,
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: they look to capture these moments and continue to go viral.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: They continue to want to say things that get that
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: push their content out and help make them viral and
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: help people coming back, and it's hard because you hear
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: a lot of things and it's really frustrating because there's
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: just things that are not true. So I think for us,
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: we wanted to just really try to break it down.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: This is just the factual timeline. We know people are
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: really watching this close. There's a lot of different ideas
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: and theaters about what actually happened on the day, but again,
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: we want to be factual. It is heavy stuff. We
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: appreciate you if you're still sticking around listening to this.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: Now we really want to dive into the first part
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: of it, being the mental health diagnoses and really what
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: is our kind of thoughts and things that we can
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: share on this part. Remember we had the episode with
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: the Goldwater rule. We're not going to be diagnosing anybody.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: We're not. We're not doing that in any way, shape
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: or form. We're just going to talk about what's been
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: shared and then kind of share, you know, what makes
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: up those diagnoses. So I'll start us off, so before
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: or the incident before January late January twenty twenty three,
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: in winter twenty twenty two. Up until January twenty twenty three,
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: Lindsay had been diagnosed primarily with generalized anxiety disorder and
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: then major depressive disorder with a severe specifier and without
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: explicit psychotic features. So some notes from her outpatient psychiatrist
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: visits show that she struggled with severe anxiety, intrusive thoughts,
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: mental fog, and then feelings of emotional numbness. I want
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: to take a quick side to tell you all what
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: all goes into a generalized anxiety disorder diagnosis and major
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: depressive disorder. So if I could scroll up to the
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: top of my page and I'll share a little bit
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: for generalized anxiety disorder some things to consider. This is
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: based off of the DSM five, the Diagnostic and Statistical
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: Manual of Mental Disorders text revised the most recent one
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: from twenty twenty two. In order to be diagnosed when
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: generalized anxiety disorder, you have to meet the falling criteria.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: The first one is excessive anxiety or worry. So you're
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: experiencing excessive anxiety or worry about a number of events
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: or activities and they're occurring more days than not for
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: at least six months. So that means Lindsay was experiencing
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: this for at least six months and was essentially worried
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: and anxious every day most days. The next criteria is
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: there has to be an inability to control the worry.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: You just can't can't do anything about it. You try
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: to and it doesn't get any better. And then the
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: other big criteria is criterion C, which is associated physical
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: or cognitive symptoms. The anxiety or worry are associated with
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: three or more of the following symptoms, with at least
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: some symptoms present for more days than not over the
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: past six months. See this is the kind of stuff
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: justin and I read we're in diagnosied. But the six symptoms, again,
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: you need three or more to be diagnosed. We don't know.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: I don't know specifically what which ones she met criteria for,
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: but the six are you're feeling restless or feeling on edge.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: The second one is being easily fatigued, Third is difficulty
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: concentrating or mind going blank. Four is irritability, five is
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: muscle tension, and then six is sleep disturbance that could
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: be difficulty falling asleep, stain asleep, restless, unsatisfying sleep. The
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: last criteria are the same criteria that we essentially see
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: for all diagnoses, which is there has to be some
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: type of impairment to daily functioning. We have to be
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: able to exclude the use of substances or another medical
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: condition to explain this to mental health or to explain this.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: And then the last one is there we exclude any
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: other mental health disorder that can possibly explain this. Right,
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: So that's generalized anxiety. I'll go a little quicker because
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: I feel like I'm just kind of like rambling with
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: some boring content. But major depressive disorder. This is essentially
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: which you would have to meet criteria for to have
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: this diagnosis. So again from the d s M five.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: For the first criteria, it's what's called the depressive symptoms.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: To meet criteria, you have to at least have five
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: or more of the falling symptoms during the same two
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: week period. This constitutes a depressive episode, and at least
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: one of the symptoms must be either a depressed mood
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: or two loss of interest or pleasure. So again, the
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: first one depressed mood most of the day, nearly every day.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: Number two is diminished interest or pleasure. Another word for
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: that is anhedonia. Number three is excessive weight loss when
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: not dieting, or weight gain or a decreased slash increase
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: in your appetite pretty much every day, basically changes in
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: your diet. Four is insomnia or hypersomnia. Five is psychomortor agitation,
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: changes in the way that you're moving. Six is fatigue
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: or loss of energy. Seven is feelings of worthlessness or
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: excessive or inappropriate guilt. Eight is diminished ability to think
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: or concentrate or indecisiveness. And nine is recurrent thoughts of death,
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: recurrent suicidal adiation, those kinds of things. The last ones
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: are the same things we talked about impact daily functioning.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: Got to exclude all these other things, make sure it's
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: not another mental health disorder, those things. The last thing
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: that I would say before I do, throws back to
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: Justin is in order to get the severe specifier, you
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: can get mild, moderate, or severe. In order to get
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: the vere specifier, the symptoms have to be substantially in
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: excess of what is required to make the diagnosis. So again,
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: you only need five to get a mild, So you
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: got to go past that. Most of the time people
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: will say, if you have eight or nine on the symptoms,
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: you're probably in the severe category, and the intensity of
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: the symptoms is severely distressing and unmanageable and they severely
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: impact your daily functioning. So that is, in a nutshell,
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: the diagnoses that we know of that lindsay was given
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: winter twenty twenty two and in early twenty twenty three.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: And correct me if I'm wrong on this one. If
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: you have major depressive disorder with psychotic features that automatically
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: puts you in this severe category for a major depressive disorder.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: I believe so. And I'm glad you bring that up,
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: because we're going to talk about that here in a
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: little bit.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: She actually had a The defense had a forensic psychiatrist
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: do an evaluation, so the post arrest evaluations diagnosed her
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: with postpartum psychosis triple p PPP A meaning she experienced
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: delusions or hallucinations, and an underlying bipolar disorder. The defense
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: argues she suffered a manic or psychotic break from reality
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: that went unrecognized during her treatment.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: What about the prosecution, What do they say about this now?
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: The prosecution said that the state experts contended that her
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: symptoms did not meet the criteria for legal insanity at
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: the time of the offense, arguing her behavior showed organized
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: planning rather than a completely ungrounded psychotic state.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So, like we mentioned earlier, it's basically the argument
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: of did she know what she's doing, was she able
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: to plan enough to like she she had full mental
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: capacity to do this, or was there a mental health
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: disorder diagnosis that better explains why she did what happened.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: Some important distinctions that we want to mention. So with
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: her diagnosis prior to the incident, again, if you remember
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: generalizing anxiety disorder and major just disorder, specifically with major
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: depressive disorder, she was not diagnosed with psychotic features. So
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: that means that at the time that she was diagnosed
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: and then beyond, there was no change to the point
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: where whoever diagnosed her felt that she was or was
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: reported to that she was experiencing any delusions or hallucinations
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: alongside her depressive symptoms. This does not mean that the
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: psychosis related symptoms could not have possibly been present. It
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: just means that whoever diagnosed her with the major depressive
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: diagnoses did not see that and there was nothing present
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: to include the with psychotic features specifier.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: And one clip that I did see a lot is
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: when Reddington, the defense lawyer, was grilling the psychiatrist. Yeah,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: and he said about the pressured speech and how she's like,
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: that's not what I put in my note, but that's
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: what I meant. That she wasn't having pressured speech. So
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: if anyone's wondering why that was such a big deal,
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: is that that is one of the symptoms of bipolar
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: mania is having pressured speech, which means talking quickly and
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: being hard to interrupt. So if the psychiatrist had put
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: pressured speech in her note, which she did, but then
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: didn't diagnose her with bipolar disorder or postpartum psychosis or
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: anything like that, then that means like she didn't fully
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: document or clarify everything that had been actually going on
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: in the visit. So whether or not she did have
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: pressured speech or not, we'll never know. But the psychiatrist
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: seemed pretty adamant that she had meant that the patient
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: did not have any pressured speech.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, because I put
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: towards the end of the script for today a brief
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: discussion on documentation. Essentially, I think what she was arguing was, well,
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: I wrote not this and not that, but the way
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: she wrote it was like not and then adjective and
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: then comma and then pressured speech because she didn't add
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: the not in front of the after the COMMA and
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: in front of pressured speech. I think you and I
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: can understand that, Oh yeah, this is what she meant.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: But it is the defense's job to pick apart, you know,
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: anything that could that the psychiatrist's written to help his client.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: So I will take a quick shift to documentation again.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: As you may have seen, like Justin pointed out, the
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: psychiatrist and I even think a mental health counselor got
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: pretty grilled on the stand at one point. And it
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: sucks because you know, her expertise, her professionalism, her license,
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: everything has been put into question, and I feel for her.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: That really sucks. And it was all because she documented
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: in a way that she understood. But that doesn't mean
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: everybody else is gonna understand. So this is the defense's role.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: That's that's what they're meant to do. This is just
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: our reminder if you are a clinician, listen to this episode.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: Please let this be your free heads up slash reminder
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: that our clinical documentation is extremely important and can and
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: will be held against us in the court of law.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: So just because you know what you mean in a
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: progress note does not mean someone else will know just
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: from looking at it. Big Red, as he's known on
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: social media, the defense attorney will pick it apart if
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: you do not document appropriately. This is not meant to
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: say you got to put every single thing in a
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: clinical note, but just take the warning. It's kind of
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: scary to see the psychiatrists out there just being ripped apart.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: Especially from the psychiatrist standpoint where you've got so many
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: notes to do in a day, and sometimes you don't
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: have a ton of time to do them, so I'm
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: usually dictating notes and trying to get through them fast,
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: and mistakes happen, and if mistakes happen, a lawyer could
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: really try and pick that apart in court. So it
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: makes you extra paranoid to be a doctor because I
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: see twelve patients a day. That's twelve notes, that twelve
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: opportunities to make a mistake and something that could be
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: put back on me. And that's yeah, that's kind of scary.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah. The other thing that I will mention is that
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: one of the things that the again Big Red tore
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: her apart on was on her website she said that
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: she was an expert in postpartum depression and it's kind
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: of wishy washy whether she really could be considered an expert,
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: but because she put that on her website, she's kind
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: of held liable for it. I see a ton of
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: therapists counselors when I'm trying to refer for care coordination
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: that have everything in the kitchen sink listed under their expertise,
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: when that's just not excuse me, that's not really the case.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: We can't say that we have expertise in every single thing.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: Some people might, but you really want to be careful
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: about what you're saying you have an expertise on. You
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: really want to make sure you're doing your ethical duty
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: to have enough training, have enough experience to really list
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: those things, because again, it could be held against you
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: in the court of law.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: And this is important. And the terms that we use
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: in the specific diagno that were given are important because
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: if she was manic or psychotic, those are the types
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: of things that would cause the delusional thinking that may
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: lead to harming her children. And that's when you can
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: really use the insanity defense.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if we want to look at the defense is
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: claim that she had an underline bipolar disorder. We can
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: dive into it a little more. One thing that I'll mention,
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: there's bipolar one and bipolar two. In simplest of terms,
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: bipolar one means you mean full criteria for a full
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: manic episode. Bipolar two is a hypomanic episode, which is,
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: for lack of a better term, less severe, less in length.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: But bipolar one tends to be the more significant diagnosis.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: So the defense is arguing that she suffered a manic
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: episode or a psychotic break after giving birth. Most likely
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: what they mean is that she had a manic episode,
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: so bipolar one with psychotic features. This is a specifier
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: that can be added when talking about the bipolar one
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: dist diagnosis. In the simplest of terms, a manic episode
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: and justin correct me or add in wherever you'd like.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: On this one, a manic episode is kind of like
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: the opposite of a depressive episode. Here people are experiencing
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: essentially the highest of the highs. There's going to be
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: signs like increased energy, decreased need for sleep, inflated sense
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: of self, increase in goal directed activities, increase in potentially
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: risky behavior. They are flying high when someone is in
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: the middle of a manic episode, like they are again
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: the highest of highs. So again here the psychotic features
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: specifier would include things like hallucinations and illusion. And if
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: this is the case, the argument is, are the defenses
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: arguing that these were experienced during that manic episode. That's
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: essentially what they're trying to bring up.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: And in my research that I was doing today on
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: this case, now she actually said that a voice had
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: told her to kill her children. Yeah, is that what
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: you're that you did?
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: You learned to I think I've seen that somewhere. It's
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: hard because my research sometimes is like what I'm seeing
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: on the TikTok. I'm not taking everything I face value,
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: but some I've heard that, Like I've heard that she
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: has mentioned specifically that she heard voices, so that would
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: count as an auditory hallucination, which by definition is a
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: psychotic feature. So she may potentially meet criteria for that.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's talk a little bit more about postpartum
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: psychosis in my casual consumption of content related to this case.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: This is the diagnosis that keeps getting brought up. And yeah,
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: we are not here to say whether or not she
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: meets criteria for this, but we do want to share
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: that this goes into the diagnosis and what challenges the
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: defense may face and trying to use this for Lindsay's
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: case in particular. So postpartum psychosis is not actually a
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: standalone diagnosis in the DSM five tr and neither is
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: postpartum depression. This does not mean that they are not real.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: They are very real. They're just diagnosed differently than what
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: some may assume. And just some stats on this is
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: that postpartum depression impacts about ten to twenty percent of
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: women globally and about one in eight to one in
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: five women in.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: The United State.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: It's like it's so common, and especially now seeing my
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: wife go through two pregnancies and deliveries and having children,
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: like it's a lot. Being a new mom is a lot,
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: and you're not sleeping, and it's a ton of stress,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: and it's a ton of hormone changes. I didn't really
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: fully appreciate it until I saw her go through it,
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: and I still can't fully appreciate it because I didn't
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: go through it myself. And then, while postpartum psychosis impacts
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: only zero point one to zero point two percent of
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: women worldwide, so it's much more rare and harder to see.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so instead of the postpartum psychosis diagnosis because there
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: isn't one. Typically a primary diagnosis like major depressive disorder
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: or bipolar one is what's given, and then it has
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: the specifier of with psychotic features again hallucinations or delusions.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: From here, there's also a specifier of perry partum. I
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: think there's only one diagnosis that specifically has maybe not one,
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: but there's Most of these diagnoses will have a perry
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: partum specifier instead of postpartum because it's given that when
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: it's given, it's essentially that the onset of the symptoms
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: occurs during pregnancy or within the first four weeks after delivery.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: Perry partum. This was a new word for me, I
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: told Justin because we work with teens so much, I
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: end up not going that far down into the diagnosis specifier.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: So this is a good learning experience for me. Perry
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: Partum refers to the transitional window surrounding delivery, so both
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: the before, during, and after. That's kind of what we
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: use in DSM. The one diagnosis that I know of
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: that does have a postpartum onset specifier is brief psychotic disorder.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: This is because the timeline of like how quickly the
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: psychotic event can happen and everything with brief brief psychotic disorder,
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: it fits better with the whole timeline. So that's why
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: they keep it in there in the DSM with research
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: and YadA YadA, YadA, all that other stuff that's not
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: really as important here, but we'll nerd out on for
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: a little bit. And one more point on this is
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: that some argue that this four week window that's given
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: for this perrypartum window is just too small and that
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: the d s M five TR should revise that because
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: we know of people who struggle and have what is
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: can be diagnosis postpartum depression for a long time after birth.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: It is not just that four week window. This is
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: this goes on for months and months and even into
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: the year year category.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: So yeah, However, like postpartum psychosis is a diagnosis in
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: the ICD ten CM and the ICD eleven it is
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: categorized as F fifty three point one perporal psychosis, which, yeah,
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: everyone's smile. I've got to give out those diagnoses codes
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: for like paperwork and stuff.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: So yeah, the codes are are way of uh, they're
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: with every diagnosis that's how things are diagnosed. I'll nerd
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: out on this for a little bit because I feel
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: like I've learned so much getting ready for my introd
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: Diagnosed class. You're probably asking, why does it matter if
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: it's not in the DSM. Why does it matter that
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: it's in the ICD. So the ICD eleven is the
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: diagnosing system that the World Health Organization, the who created
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: that essentially the rest of the world uses. In the US,
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: we do not use the ICD eleven. We use a
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: version that was made for us because that's the way
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: we are, I guess, called the ICD ten CM. Like
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: Justin mentioned, the CM means clinical modification. It was made
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: to fit our needs with the way that our insurance
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: is in this country, and it seems to be more
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: geared towards health insurance reimbursement, clinical research, and hospital tracking,
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: a lot less geared towards specifically diagnosing. To add another
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: layer to it. While mental health disorder codes are in
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: the ICD ten CM, the US healthcare system relies on
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: the diagnoses made by the DSM five TR So essentially,
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: someone can be diagnosed with postpartum psychosis or pure parole psychosis.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: The fifty three point one using the ICD ten CM,
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: but it's really only for billion purposes insurance reimbursement, clinical research,
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: hospital tracking. In the person would need to get a
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: DSM five TR diagnosis. That would need to be the
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: actual diagnosis, which then means, in the case of Lindsay Clancy,
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: she would need something like bipolar one disorder with mood
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: congruent psychotic features in order to really encapsulate the whole
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: I had a bipolar disorder, I had a manic episode,
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: and I had a psychotic break. That's the best way
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: to code it for an official diagnosis.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: So tying this all together because I know it's a lot.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: The lack of a standalone DSM diagnosis for postpartum psychosis
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: creates significant friction in a high profile criminal case like
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: this one because it does not have a formal code
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: in the manual. Defense teams must establish that the symptoms
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: meet the legal criteria for an underlying condition like bipolar
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: one with psychotic features or a brief psychotic disorder that
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: rendered the defendant leadlegally insane at the exact moment of
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: the offense. Plus what we see as psychotic is not
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: necessarily the exact same as insane. So the problem is
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: is that we're trying to translate and bridge the gap
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: between the DSM, the ICD, between the legal terms, and
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: it's not always easy, it's not always fluid to go
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: between those different systems, and it just makes these cases
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: really difficult.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then what's hard is the popular culture social
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: media component, because then people start to throw around all
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: these different diagnoses that start to throw around words. I
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: could open up TikTok right now, find a video about
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: the case and someone will tell me that she's diagnosed
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: with postpartum psychosis. You and I and the listeners now
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: both No, that's not a standalone diagnosis. So that it
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: just there's so much that goes into it, right, there's
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: a lot. We wanted to try to make this as
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: easily digestible as possible because if you know me, as
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: I've shared on the show, I need plain English as
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: much as possible. And my hope is that we shared
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: as much plain English regarding her diagnoses and what that
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: looks like. From the mental health clinician side of it,
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: we want to transition a little bit. We do want
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: to look at her treatment history because this may play
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: a point into it too. I mentioned earlier in the
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: start of the episode, it sounds like there may be
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: some civil lawsuits against the treatment providers on behalf of
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: Lindsay Clancy's family because of the way everything went. So
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: we do want to dissect a little bit her treatment
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: history and what may have impacted her at the point
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: that she reached this event, so that the defense her
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: team argues that she was again she was in a
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: manic stake, she had a psychotop break caused by an
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: underlying bipolar disorder. They also mentioned her medication regiment in
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: that time. So while the prosecution. While the prosecution argueses
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: she had a standard anxiety depression with me without mania
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: or psychosis diagnosis that made her full aware of her
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: what was going on and her making her action is deliberate,
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: the defense is saying that her treatment history and her
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: potential medication regimen may have impacted her and may have
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: got her to the point where she was maybe not
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: treated correctly psychiatrically with the medication she was on.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: So Lindsay's psychiatrist also had to take the stand, which
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: I know we talked about earlier, which brings up some
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: important pieces to note regarding her medication and treatment history.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: Between late twenty twenty two and January twenty twenty three,
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: Lindsay was prescribed at least thirteen different psychiatric medications, including
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: antidepressants like Zoloft and remarn, benzodiazepines like adavan, sedatives, and
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: antipsychotics sleep aids like Syraquil, trasdon. Her prescriptions were reportedly added, stopped,
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: or adjusted within short windows. The defense attorney indicates that
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: changes in medication, such as increasing her zoeloft dose, led
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: to worsening depression, daytime crying, racing thoughts, and severe emotional numbness.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: And that can happen if you give an SSRI, a
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: medicine for regular depression, to someone who really has bipolar disorder. Yeah,
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: it can make you worse. It can make your depression worse.
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: It can make you have a manic episode. So that's
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: a legitimate point that the lawyer is bringing up. Do
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: I know exactly what happened? No, because I wasn't there.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: I didn't assess the pace, the Goldwater roll Eddie. We
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: are not diagnosing, but they're making legitimate points, is what
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to say.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's not bullshit like it's a real When
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: I was reading through, I'm like, yeah, that's a that
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: is a great point. If this medication regimen that changed,
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: you know, snip snaps snap so quickly, there's definitely a
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: possibility that it could have made things worse for her
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: and she wasn't really realizing it. Yeah.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like we mentioned previously, in early January twenty twenty three,
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: weeks before the tragedy, Lindsay voluntarily admitted herself to the
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: McLean Hospital, that psychiatric facility in Massachusetts. Hospital records indicate
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: she was discharged after doctors determined she was not actively
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: suicidal or homicidal at the time. And what I was
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: listening to today to catch up for this, her outpatient
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: psychiatrist also had recommended she go to a partial hospitalization program,
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: but she was turned down. So she was reaching out
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: for help. She was trying to get help, and the
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: system let her down.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: It failed her.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: It did not give her the treatment and help that
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: she needed. And we have such formalized assessments for these
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: things that sometimes we just forget the fact that sometimes
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: if people need help, we should give them help. And
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: so that makes me kind of sad and sick in
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: a way to see that such a tragedy happened after
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: someone was trying to get help.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, to maybe give some clarity to the idea of
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: partial hospitalization, that's essentially day treatment, So you're not impatient,
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: you're not living at the hospital for that time. You're
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: coming to the hospital for the day. You're getting your treatment,
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: all your appointments, psych psychiatrist's, mental health, all that, and
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: then you're going home at the end of the day.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: But it's very intensive to the point where you're there
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: probably four to five days a week. So if the
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: if her provider told her that she should look into that,
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: she was probably pretty heavily impacted at that point with
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: whatever diagnosis she was given. I've heard a couple of
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: times that sounds like Lindsay has reported that it was
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: she was having a difficult time, and she was having
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: a difficult time when she was discharged from the hospital,
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: and that she just felt like she was falling through
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: the cracks. In about two weeks prior to the incident,
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: lind Lindsay called the suicide hotline and that while making
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: these calls, she was either turned away or unable to
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: get immediate assistance. I don't know how accurate. That is,
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: I don't like, I don't know what the proof is
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: on that, but I have heard of that happening unfortunately,
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: so I wouldn't you know again, like you mentioned, like
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: she may have been fairly failed by the system, and unfortunately,
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: this is where we're at.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: And in some of the testimony late last week, it
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: had come out that she had sent messages through the
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: portal to her psychiatrist and she was like seeing a
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: psychiatrist for a while, and she saw a nurse practitioner
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: a couple of different times. But she had messaged one
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: of her providers saying, we're trying all these different sleep
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: medicines to try and get me to sleep. But I
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: think the reason why I'm not sleeping is because I'm
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: dependent on benzodiazepines, and it seems like when they're coming
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: out of my system, I'm withdrawing. My anxiety is coming
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: through the roof. So she had so many different medicine changes,
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: and she was on so many different things, and it's
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: just sometimes when you get to that point of trying
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: thirteen different medicines in a short period of time, it
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: feels like, how am I ever going to get off
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: of this now? How am I ever going to get
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: to a point where I don't need any of this?
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: And sometimes as a psychiatrist, you add more things on
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: because you don't want to destabilize the patient by taking
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: things away. But man, sometimes you get to the point
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: where they're on multiple medications and some of them are
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: doing opposite things of each other, and it's like, man,
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: it's hard to look at that medicine list and all
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: the trials and how quickly she changed medicines and just say, like, man,
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: that just it wasn't going well. Yeah, that was not
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: the best treatment for her.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And I think I think what's gotten lost
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: in a lot of the social media part of it
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: and the people wanted to go viral and push this
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: content is that's just really fucking sad, like a family
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: is torn apart and destroyed forever, and instead people are
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: focusing on no, who actually did it, or you know,
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: the husband set her up, or the mom did this,
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: or the psych I just did that or big red
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: to the rescue. People are focused on that, and we've
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: lost sight of the fact that this is really fucking sad.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: Like I think I will be totally honest with you
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: in going through this episode right now with you, I
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: feel fucking sad. It really sucks. Someone tried to get help,
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: someone with their partner, had a family, and did the
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: things that they wanted to do and the goal that
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: they had set, and then there was a rock or
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: multiple rock in the roads where they were they were struggling,
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: and then they reached out for help, and then the
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: help did not come through. So at the end of
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: the day, it's fucking sad. You know, the case is
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: still ongoing. We don't know how it's going to turn out.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: I think I looked it up there expecting that somewhere
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: in September things will get wrapped up. Who knows at
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: this point, but we just wanted to take the time
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: to oper up some perspective along with I think a
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: lot of facts. I feel like we're pretty factual today,
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: which is wis factual, But we kept the subjective stuff
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: to a minimum a minimum. But we really want our
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: listeners to have a better understanding of the mental health
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: side of this case, because it really is things get
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: sensationalized and social media just doesn't do it justice. We
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: strongly want to encourage our listeners to carefully consume the
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: content that they consume about this case, because again, there's
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: a ton of misinformation. There's conspiracy theories left and right.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: I think I saw one today. I think they had
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: somebody who had reviewed like her phone and her social
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: media and her search is in her Apple Watch. I
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: feel like I saw something today that basically accused like
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: they're like, well, you know, according to her Apple Watch, this,
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: this and this, and someone was like, no, according to
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: the Apple Watch. Whoever had the Apple Watch on and
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: then put it back on her wrist at that, Like,
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: I just I don't know anyway. Yeah, at the end
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: of the day, a family is destroyed, and no matter
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: the outcome of the trial, the events that took place
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: cannot be taken back. As two men of I think
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: a lot of privilege offering up our thoughts on this.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: We just hope that our discussion was helpful. We hope
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: it can make you a knowledgeable consumer of the case
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: if you want to, you don't have to as it
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: goes on. And we just hope that we have explained
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: this at least in an easy to digest way so
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: that you at least have a better idea of the
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: medical and mental health side of this.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah and yeah, I like your emphasis on the fact that, man,
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: this is a tragedy. This is something that a family
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: went through in those poor kids. And one of the
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: things that broke me up the most was they made
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: Lindsey sit in the courtroom and listen to the autopsy
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: reports on these kids. And as a parent, I would
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: just like put myself in her shoes and like, I
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: started tearing up, Like that would be the most awful
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: thing you could ever have to do as a parent.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: So and now she's completely paralyzed, she's divorced, she lost
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: her three children, so she was struggling. She was reaching
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: out for help and she didn't get it, and something
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: terrible happened. So, man, whatever happened, I don't really care,
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: like I feel for her. I feel terrible for her.
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we hope this was informational at the very least.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: What We appreciate you all sticking around for it. We
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: hope this was helpful. You have questions, comments, concerned, suggestions,
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: anything for us. You always know where to find us.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: You let us know, and we're happy to share our
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: expertise in the best way possible. So we appreciate you
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: all listening. Well, we'll be back with the next one and.
• 44:01
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• 44:04
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• 44:08
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• 44:10
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• 44:13
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• 44:18
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