Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / Worth Repeating: Skills Over Discipline to Transform Workplace Conflict with Cherolyn Knapp
Transcript
- Megan Hunter: Welcome to, It's All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you understand and increase your effectiveness with someone who may have a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host Bill Eddie, along with our special guest today. She Knapp, who I'll introduce in a moment. Bill and I are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California. In this episode, we're focusing on a topic that impacts so many because almost everyone is immersed in a workplace somewhere. And when we have people together, conflict is bound to happen. And it sometimes happens with someone with a high conflict personality, and that kind of conflict is often very dreadful and chaotic. So today we're really pleased to have someone with loads of background and expertise, uh, with us to talk about conflict at work. Uh, but first a couple of notes. If you have questions about a high conflict situation, send them to podcasts@highconflictinstitute.com or through our website at high-conflict institute.com/podcast, where you'll find the show notes in links as well. And if you wouldn't mind giving us a rate or review and telling your friends, colleagues, or family about us, especially if they're dealing with a high conflict situation, we're always happy to help and we're very grateful for you. Now, let's talk with Sharon. I'll do my best to give the big highlights, and then we'll get into some questions that are all about her. Um, and she please feel free to jump in at any point and tell our listeners more about yourself. Uh, so listeners, this is the first time she's been on our show, but it won't be her last. We're very pleased to announce that she has joined the HCI Speaker trainer roster and will also be leading the New Ways for Work trainings that, uh, that we give. So we're so pleased to have her on board with us and, um, excited to talk to her today. And I know you'll love listening, um, and hearing from her. We'll talk more about all of that in a little bit. But I want to let you know who she is first. She's a conflict resolution consultant, a mediator trainer, workplace investigator, and a lawyer based in Victoria, Canada. She holds a Bachelor of Commerce in Human Resources from Toronto Metropolitan University and a law degree from the University of Ottawa. She's practiced in Canada as a litigation lawyer from 2004 to 2019, and has advised and advocated for employee, employer, individual and organization clients in a broad range of employment, human rights, and civil disputes. And I know she doesn't like, doesn't like long bios, but , she's done a lot of great stuff. She was also the co-managing partner of a small law firm. And, uh, in 2019 she opened NAP Resolutions where she focuses on helping people navigate workplace conflict. At some point, she was drawn to our work here at hci and as we got to know her, we were really drawn to her as well. So we're really pleased to have you on board with us, Cheryl and here, uh, have us having you on with us today. So did I miss anything in that long bio? Is there anything else you'd like to add that feels like a, a very good start for getting introduced. Thank you, Bill and Megan, it's a pleasure to be here. Absolutely. It's our pleasure to have you. So we're doing something a little bit different today, which is to, um, you know, give you, ask you a few questions that we don't normally ask our guests, but I thought this would be fun today and, uh, gives our listeners a chance to get to know you better and maybe fall in love with you a little bit. So the first question, where did you grow up? Well, I grew up in a small town in Ontario, Canada, uh, which is far from where I live now. Uh, and it was a smaller community and also surrounded by, by rural communities on the beautiful shores of Georgian Bay, which is part of the Great Lakes system, which quarters, Ontario and some of the, the northern states. Georgia Bay, is that what it it's called Georgian Bay Georgian Bill. Have you heard of Georgian Bay? Bill Eddy: Never heard of it before this. And I've been to Ontario probably 25 times, but I mean, it's a, a big beautiful province. Megan Hunter: Yeah, it sure is. Cool. All right. What's your favorite reading genre? Or you can say your favorite types of movies if you prefer that I'm a reader and I was thinking about this question cuz you did give me a preview of it and it's hard to say favorites. Um, so here's, here's my reading practices. I don't know about you, but I often keep a pile of books on my bedside table and have a few on the go at one time. I usually have one or two pieces of nonfiction on the go these days. That is often a lot about conflict resolution topics, uh, as you might imagine, Uhhuh . So I am currently finishing up an incredible book by Deborah Tannin, written in the eighties called, That's Not What I meant. And she's a linguist and she talks about our different patterns and speech and how that leads to conflict and misunderstandings. So that's pretty interesting. And I also keep fiction on the go. And I'm a lover of Tan Lit, which is our short form for Canadian literature, uh, fiction. And uh, so I just finished b a book by Thomas King, uh, called Indian on Vacation, which, uh, was a, you know, satirical piece of fiction, uh, but also very interesting, uh, from the indigenous perspective. Well, we're looking here at, uh, you on, uh, I know our listeners can't see you, but we can see each other on, um, through Zoom. And there's, I see you have a lot of books on your bookshelf behind you , so yeah, I can see your reader. Um, and those books sound great. I am a reader and I still, I still love reading books on paper. That's my preferred book reading format. Yeah. How about you, Bill? Bill Eddy: I'm really mixed now because I travel a lot and I also, like, I'm reading five books at the same time, so I put 'em in my iPad and I find I just take my iPad on a plane and I've got five thick books and, uh, real easily. But I do like the feel of holding a book in paper, so I go, I go both ways. I would say Megan Hunter: , I like the paper just because I find I don't finish books on the, the, you know, the electronic books unfortunately. So there you have it. Um, so where do you wish you could live? If you could live anywhere in the world? Well, I've been thinking about this question a little bit too, cuz it's a toughie. Um, and so I'm gonna say something a little sappy maybe. I love where I live. That's cool. I, I left, um, Ontario in the middle of our country and I moved out to the west coast and so I get to live on Vancouver Island in the city of Victoria, which is surrounded by ocean on three sides. And we get to look across the straight of Wanda Fuka and see the Olympic mountain range when, when things are super clear we can see, uh, Mount Rainier in Washington state and also Mount Baker and, and you know, in addition to the, the other mountain ranges, uh, in British Columbia. And, and I, yeah, I love where I live. I feel very fortunate to live in Canada. Um, and I, I moved maybe, probably deliberately to one of the best climates that we have in this country. So I have to say, I don't think I would choose another place. I love visiting other places, most certainly, but I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna elect to stay where I, where I put myself. Yeah, that's a, that's a pretty good place to live. I'd say , , I'm a little jealous. Um, alright, next question. So if you could spend one hour with someone to have a discussion and ask questions or just to even sit with, who would it be? This is such an interesting question because you start to question yourself about whether the person you've chosen is good enough to answer the question. But, um, so my first answer to this question is that I actually like sitting and talking to almost anybody. Uh, and hearing from them their perspectives of, of, you know, where, where they come from and what they think is tremendous. But if I, if I need to pick lately, I wanna sit down with Jennifer Lopez and I wanna understand how her life works. Uh, she has a documentary, uh, on one of the streaming services that I watched recently and it sort of talks about, uh, her lead up to her Super Bowl appearance. And, and what I got from that story is how in incredibly complex there are a lot of things she as a person has, has accomplished and expects from herself, um, physically and professionally and having, having a multifaceted career. I think that would be someone I would sit and talk to and say, How does, tell me more about how this works. That's so cool because I suppose Bill, were you thinking like, I was thinking maybe that maybe it'd be the Dai lama she would want to sit with and talk with, but Jennifer Lopez, that's cool cuz she's fascinating. Bill Eddy: Well, I, I, I always wanted to sit and talk with Ben Franklin, but, but what he has in common with Jennifer Lopez is a diverse career. Yeah. The benefit she has, of course is being alive today is she's amazing. When I found out she was 50, I couldn't believe it, you know, the last 30 years, she doesn't seem to have aged, but, uh, very interesting. I think she'd be a fascinating person Megan Hunter: For sure. All right, couple more questions and then we're going to get into the, the bigger stuff, um, or different stuff. So, uh, what drew you to this profession and what, you know, what you've been in conflict resolution for quite a while now? I think the first answer has to be how do you know I became a lawyer initially and I was drawn to that work. I think I was looking for something, um, challenging and rewarding and also fundamentally to help people. I made a, I made a decision in which I implemented in 2019 to move into mediation and conflict resolution work specifically. And so that builds on really, really liking the people part of dynamics. And so the, the legal work I was doing, it was my observation that a lot of the time the people work, the people aspect, the things that people got into disagreements and legal disputes about, a lot of it came down to who we are as people. And so I really decided to focus in on working with people, helping them understand conflict and helping them find a way forward. And that I, I don't know, I just, that for me, the fact that I actually get to do that now pretty much all the time is I, I feel like I have the best job. That's great. And it puts a smile on your face. It's, it's obvious, right? It does. And so I guess you've already kind of answered the next question, which was, what gives you satisfaction in this work? And it sounds like it's, it's really being able to help people through processes and systems and interactions that's through them. I mean, conflict can be devastating. Even what you might characterize as day to day conflicts are really, really hard on people. And so to be able to help them build up the skills and abilities to find the way forward is very, very, very satisfying. Absolutely. So in your work, have you seen many or a lot of high conflict situations? ? Yes. Yes. Lots and lots of law and lots through the years litigating. And also in the work that I do now, I think a lot of them, I don't know if, I'm not sure why, but I feel like I have had a high proportion of high conflict situations through my career. Hmm. I wonder why. I wonder why too . Um, sometimes I think it has to do with, you know, who we are as people in how we came up and I feel like, so maybe some of my, you know, my experiences through my family and that kind of thing sort of make you, I dunno, attract a certain kind of, of work to yourself. And so then, and then it, and then one builds on the next. Bill Eddy: Yeah. Uh, a question that I've been wondering about in your perspective is, do you see it increasing since Covid and then one, are some common high conflict issues you've been involved with? Megan Hunter: I feel like it's intensifying since the pandemic. I think that there were already some political polarizing forces happening before the pandemic, but the pandemic, uh, took away people's flexibility and elasticity to a, you know, they were busy adapting at two pandemic regulations and feeling worried a lot. And so I feel like they're, they became really stretched and almost brittle and throughout that there's been more polarization. So I think high conflict situations are intensifying and I, I do think people are experiencing more of them. Bill Eddy: Yeah. This is what kinda issues, What are some of the common issues? Are there themes to what you're seeing over and over again or everybody different? Megan Hunter: The kinds of things I'm seeing these days is a, a lot of people really feeling bullied and harassed and, and feeling harm on them by somebody else. And that can be folks who may have some high conflict personality traits, or that might be folks who are in their orbit. Um, but there's a lot of feelings of people, people really feeling that they've been harmed by others and therefore feeling very reactive about it. And I, that plays out in many different ways, but for me, that's a, that's a story I hear a lot of times about people feeling very hurt. Interesting. Um, Bill's been doing a lot of research on bullying lately, , so I'm mm-hmm. , I'm sure that that, uh, you know, fits right in there. Um, in your observations, have organizations and HR departments management responded, uh, I guess in a way that, uh, that works, uh, doesn't work? Or are they just kind of stumped and don't know what to do with these, uh, you know, maybe high conflict situations or aggressive aggression and bullying? It's my observation and this follows with what I've heard, uh, both of you talk about in the work that you do, that the things that HR departments and managers and leaders tend to do in workplaces is the thing that works for 80 or 90% of the people. And it does work for 80 or 90% of the people. You can have a chat with someone and and encourage them to gain insight into what they're doing that is problematic for their teammates or their supervisor or what have you. But for the other 10 or 20%, it doesn't work. And that's where I think there's a disconnect in workplaces is is that hope that everything, that doing the same thing for all people will work for all people. And it, it frankly doesn't. I've been talking about that, uh, lately and that, and, and kind of framing it in a kind of a way that the education system does where there are some who are very typical, right? Learning typical and some aren't. And I think we have the same with conflict is there's conflict typical and some who are not. And it's those who are those who are sort of atypical that organizations don't know what to do with, and folks who fall into that minority who may have some high conflict personality traits and some challenges and, and difficulty gaining insight there. The beauty is that there are ways, there are techniques to use for those people, and we've simply need to help build capacity amongst leaders and, and human resources professionals who guide them to, to help make sure we know what the right approach is to deal with those folks. Because folks who may have high part, high conflict personality traits, my thinking is, I mean, they need to have jobs. They, they have families to support, they deserve to be treated with respect. It's just that they also can be very, very disruptive people. Uh, and so having mechanisms to help those people has, it has been incredibly meaningful to me as a professional in what I do to have this skill set for dealing when I identify that it's that kind of person who needs those skills and techniques. Bill Eddy: Yeah, it's really similar in mind thinking to alcohol and drug addiction where you have, you know, 10, 10 to 15% of people realize they just shouldn't drink as the way to deal with alcohol. Whereas other people, maybe occasionally they have a problem, but it's not that substantial. They really have a different approach and people really need skills for staying clean and sober. And in many ways you learn those skills, you can go on, have a great life. And I think what we try to teach people with high conflict personalities is these skills that will help them be able to have successful work careers, friendships, um, happiness. And so I, I really agree with you. This is the kind of thing we wanna give people so they can, you know, do the work and have a good life. Megan Hunter: And when we can help equip people who may have high conflict personality traits or the people who work with them, with these skills for, for how to reduce conflict and bring it into more of a healthy range, Is it ever interesting to watch it when you see that transformation happening? Is, is someone who might come into, uh, interacting with me, either as a workplace investigator or as a mediator or, or coaching or training and, and they may have come in, you know, I may have had conversations where the sentiment was, this is gonna be really difficult, we have a lot of challenges with this person and I'm not sure how it's gonna go. And then when you start to employ the, the new ways, techniques that, um, that High Conflict Institute teaches people about, it's, it's so fascinating to be able to watch that conversation transform and to be able to connect with somebody and work with them in a way that other people thought might be exceedingly difficult. I'm amazed at how often employing the new ways skills with somebody like a tech, you know, working with them on some of the techniques that I know we're gonna talk about in a moment. It actually doesn't take very long. Right. It's pretty surprising that by changing the way I interact with them, two or three conversations, we are having a completely different process than we might have been at the very first time. And isn't it fascinating? You know, you, you, like you said, the, those who work with this individual are thinking, they're exasperated, they feel like they're in, you know, in chaos and they dread the interactions. And I think they'd be really surprised if they were a fly on the wall and could see the difference in just one or two or three coaching sessions of, you know, the keyword you said there was connecting, using connection skills with this individual because that's what they're really needing. It's what they're craving. And when they get that through ear statements, and you know, we've talked a lot about that on this podcast, um, in various episodes. You're exactly right. It's just, it's one of the most gratifying things I find in my work is, is when you see someone just really open up and they bring their walls down, they begin to trust a little bit more. And, um, and then you can, can really make some progress with them. And so I guess that that leads us into talking about new ways for work. So I'll, I'll, you know, kind of pivot to you, Bill New Ways has been your, your brain child, your creation. I remember when you first told me about it back in probably 2008. Yeah. Or so Bill Eddy: That's when it started Megan Hunter: . Yeah. And I, I remember that conversation where you said, you know, I have this idea, um, you know, people just need new ways of, of doing things because the old ways don't work. So it's, you know, started with family law and now we've gone into, um, mediation and now workplace and that's where we're so pleased that she, you're joining us to, to do this training. Um, so Bill, why don't you tell us, So let's talk a little bit more about New Ways for Work and why you created it, what it is, who it's for, how it works. Bill Eddy: Real briefly. We had already developed new ways for families and it was a way to really teach individuals going through high conflict divorce, how to manage their emotions, how to focus they're thinking, write emails that were, you know, reasonable, make proposals, make decisions. So in 2014, I was speaking with my colleague Georgie Deste. We had worked together in a psychiatric hospital like 20 years earlier and she had gone into management and also into doing employee assistance work. And so she's been using b for years and ear statements and we, we wrote the, uh, book, It's All Your Fault At Work Together. And we were thinking, you know, employee assistance professionals could really use like a three session method cuz they get three sessions to meet with employees that would teach them our skills. And so we kind of brainstorm together, let's translate the new ways for families into new ways for work for employees who are in trouble. Or maybe an manager might refer an employee saying, you know, I think your, your skills could improve and it could be for managers also. So we, we created the whole method, wrote a manual, wrote a workbook for it, and then started training people in our 12 hour new Ways for work methods. So it's geared to people having difficulty. Now we have the cars method we've had for many years for people dealing with other people's conflicts like a manager or human resources. But this is for the individual to change their own skills to work on how they communicate. And it could be any, any employee anywhere. And I'll just give a real quick story. So I gave a training for one of the high tech companies and during a break they came up to me and said, you know, we've got this manager who writes these terrible emails and really alienating people and so we're trying to decide if we should fire her or keep her. And I said, Well, I think you need to give her some skills and then make that decision. So if you give her three coaching sessions and especially teach our if method of emails, then you'll see she can learn it where she can't. And if she can't, she's probably never going to really work that well for you. And if she can, or at least she shows progress, then this may be someone you can really train to be an effective manager. So that's, that's part of my picture of it is employees, but also managers to give people a chance to improve behavior and then make those big decisions afterwards. Megan Hunter: Yeah. And what I'm kind of finding is that, uh, some employees are really desperate for this information. They just don't know, They really don't know these skills. And I, I, uh, have a, you know, a fairly recent example where the individual said, I, I, I just, you know, it's just not common sense to me what seems to be common sense to everyone else. And, um, I, so I love that the individual is open to exploring, could I have some, some more coaching? I want to learn to be more flexible, I just don't know how. So I think that's the, the part of this, it it, you know, doing this kind of coaching isn't punitive. It's actually such a bonus. It's such a gift I think that, that people can give themselves or you could give your employees. What's your thoughts on that, Cheryl? It feels like a, like a gift and like it's very hopeful. It's oftentimes when there's been someone who's identified as a disruptive employee, uh, as you say, they're not used to getting positive attention, um, they're often feeling brushed off and dismissed. There's a lot of conflict with a lot of people. I can only imagine how stressful that must feel to, for the person. And you know, someone probably sits down and has the chat with them to try to tell them, you know, this is how you land with your coworkers. We, you know, could you, could you do something different? But the person doesn't know what to do different. And so they leave those, those chat, those quote unquote chats, feeling mystified about what to do, but, but simply feeling more and more targeted by their coworkers because it's, it's their behavior that's disruptive, the person, but they don't know what to do to be different. And so kind of consistent with maybe some high conflict personality traits, they just blame other people and feel uncomfortable and dunno what to do. So there's the, the, the good news is there is hope for those people and, and that when people have had the new ways for work coaching training that, uh, that High Conflict Institute provides, and which I will be leading on November 14th and 15th, uh, of this year, uh, with that training people, people who have coaching relationships with employees. So that might be, uh, efap professionals as Bill mentioned, and counselors and therapists. It could be executive coaches who work with a broad range of people, but sometimes there's someone who just seems to constantly be in a battle with their coworkers and, and need some new skills for, for, for what to do differently. It could be people who do post workplace investigation, restorative or remedial work with, with respondents of, of workplace investigations. It it could be human resources professionals who, who, or even internal coaches, because I know some, some many, many different organizations have their own internal coaching programs. So there are a lot of people who might be in a, in a coaching dynamic with an employee who can help them learn these skills and develop the skills to help them succeed in that workplace. And it's a, it's as simple as, as the skills development and a and as bill referenced, you don't have to make firing decisions until the person's had the chance to see if they can develop those skills and actually shift how they contribute in that workplace and be less disruptive. Um, so I I'm very hopeful for people and, and that if we can equip the right people who have the coaching relationships with the right skills to help the people who are being disruptive, that, that there's actually hope for a lot more contentment in the workplace. Yes, I love that. And I'm, I'm so pleased that you'll be teaching this cause it's, uh, just, uh, I think it'll be fantastic You have so much to share with, um, with the learners. So, um, well wrap it up with this final question. Do you have like kind of a top three tips for people who work in human resources for coaches or anyone who's dealing with or, you know, working with high conflict situations? My first tip for everyone who finds themself in conflict is we have to calm ourself and understand what High Conflict Institute tells all of us that when you, when you find the conflict in your brain and reduce reactivity, now we've got access to our complex communication abilities as human beings and our complex problem solving abilities. So the first thing is to have a, have a personal practice at when our buttons get pushed. We need to know how to buy some time or get ourselves into a complex. So that's the first thing. Uh, the second thing is to notice when you find yourself having conversations with people who don't seem to be able to get insight. And if you find yourself on your, maybe your third conversation with that person where you're saying to yourself, Geez, we talked about this before. Why can't this person get it? Then maybe, maybe it's time to step back and think about whether this person has some high conflict personality traits and whether a different technique is what's called for participating in some of the High Conflict Institute training courses will help somebody be able to do a very quick assessment to know how to identify someone who may have some of those traits and then shift gears. My third tip is that if someone meets those four hallmarks or characteristics of somebody who has high conflict personality traits, which we can quickly spout off. So it's a big test. . Yeah, exactly. Can I rhyme it off off the top of my head? So all or nothing thinking unmanaged emotions, um, extreme behavior and preoccupation with preoccupation with blaming others. Thank you Bill. Um, I'm don't worry, it took us a long time to, it took me years. It's funny cuz you, you know them really well and then suddenly you can't say all four however. So yes, preoccupation with blaming others. So when someone has all those four hallmarks, I call 'em defining characteristics these days, by the way. Okay, just sorry to interrupt. Defining characteristics then to step back and say, Aha. Okay. Like to get practiced at running through that quick assessment and saying, Oh, I'm seeing all four of these things here, so now I'm gonna ship gears and to get the skills to know what, what, you know, whether it's through the new Ways for Work coaching program or through the new ways for work mediation or some of the other, even just like the articles, the books, the webinars, to be able to access that material and know what to do differently. Excellent. Yeah, I can't, I can't say enough how this information and these skills and techniques have have been a game changer for me in my practice to be able to quickly identify and shift gears and work with people where they're at and help them with what they need. Bill Eddy: Let me just add in here. You touched on, on mediation and our method new ways for mediation, which you can use in the workplace and, and you particularly just picked it up instantly. Uh, remember you at one of our early trainings and it was like, now we're gonna do a practice and there's several in going through the steps and managing, and then I think that you told me that night that you had a mediation and you applied it that night and the next day, you know, things really came together. So I think it's very exciting you're gonna be teaching the coaching but also think you really do well with the mediation set. Megan Hunter: It's hard to describe how it feels to have been a, to been a learner, uh, of the High Conflict Institute and then now get to be part of it, uh, to help, help give this information and train others on how to use these techniques. Ah, we're thrilled. We're so happy to have you on, on board with us and, um, I'm sure you listeners have, have gained, um, some wisdom today from this discussion and from she and, um, hopefully you can use this at, at the workplace, you know, whether, um, you think you might have some of these defining characteristics or you're dealing with, you know, working with someone who, who may have some of these disruptive behaviors. Uh, so Cheryl, thank you so much for joining us and, and for your wisdom and experience. Uh, next week we'll talk, uh, more about mediating high conflict disputes and, uh, in the meantime, send your questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast. Uh, please tell your friends about us and we'd be really grateful if you leave a review wherever you listen to our podcast. Until that episode, have a great week and keep learning about high conflict behavior and practice it so that you can help everyone find the missing piece. It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music, by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Moran. Find the show, show notes and transcripts@truestory.fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.