Latest / The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten / When Your Mental Health Improves... And It Tanks Your Marriage

Transcript

When Your Mental Health Improves... And It Tanks Your Marriage · The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten

• 0:05
  Hi everybody and welcome to the Doctor Psych Mom Show.
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  Today we're going to be talking about how when your mental
• 0:11
  health improves, sometimes your marriage goes to shit, right?
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  And so people are surprised by this because kind of thought
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  that if things get better in one domain, then that could only be
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  positive for the relationship. But certainly nothing could be
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  farther from the truth. And we will discuss why.
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  Before that, though, please do subscribe.
• 0:36
  The most recent subscriber episode was about how there's a
• 0:39
  little honeymoon stage every month biologically and how to
• 0:43
  make the best use of that. All right.
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  So a lot of people that I work with in therapy or you know,
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  just generally who who are in therapy, they they're trying to
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  work on certain core aspects of themselves.
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  So they may be addressing feelings of persistent low self
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  worth, you know, a self concept that they don't deserve good
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  things, things, you know, these sorts of things would be really
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  relevant if they had a dysfunctional childhood.
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  So a lot of people engage in behaviors then that are not what
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  somebody with high self esteem would do, quite honestly, right?
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  I mean, they they martyr themselves in their
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  relationship. They act crazy, quote UN quote,
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  so like impulsively and histrionically and volatile.
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  You know, screaming and fighting.
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  You know, you don't really act like that.
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  If you feel like you deserve to get your needs met.
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  You, you don't act hysterical. You act hysterical when you feel
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  like it's almost impossible, like you're like in a desperate
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  possible situation that will never work.
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  And also people tend to act very disruptively and chaotically
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  when they don't really have much self respect.
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  Like it doesn't really matter how crazy they act.
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  In their mind, they don't feel like a good human being anyway,
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  so almost. You might as well act
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  dramatically and in a way that is shameful to you because it's
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  like who cares if you're already at the bottom of the totem pole?
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  In your own estimation anyway, you already have low self
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  esteem, so how does this manifest?
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  Is somebody with low self esteem, which is really at the
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  core of so many issues including depression?
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  Depression is super biological too, but the low self worth
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  feelings of the guilt feelings, the cognitive symptoms of
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  depression are related to low self esteem.
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  So that person will just engage in the ways that they saw
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  growing up. You know, they'll either be the
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  martyr or they'll be the quote crazy one like in my post and
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  podcast, Mr. Perfect and his crazy wife, right, the woman in
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  that. So let's take that one because
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  that's a great example. So in Mr. Perfect and his crazy
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  wife, a woman with very low self esteem who grew up in a
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  dysfunctional family, marries a man who's quote UN quote perfect
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  because that makes her feel better about herself, that she
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  should could get such a man and that she will certainly have
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  normal children and have a normal family for them.
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  But this guy kind of looks down on her and that doesn't make
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  any, you know, that's not shocking because she looks down
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  on herself. And the original dynamic of the
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  relationship was that he was the good one, the normal one, the
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  successful one. And she's just kind of, you
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  know, like this really not very competent person.
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  Maybe she has substance abuse issues or she's depressed, or
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  she has paralyzing anxiety or whatever it is, she's just not
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  as competent as him. But in the honeymoon stage,
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  everything goes really well. And, you know, she's hitching
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  her wagon to his star. And in an extreme version, this
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  is a borderline narcissist dynamic, which you can listen to
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  in my podcast, Extreme Preoccupied and and Avoidant or
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  Narcissist borderline. And you know, she she starts to
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  become upset because the honeymoon stage wears off.
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  He's not as into her. He's not as romantic and her sex
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  drive goes down and then she starts to see that he looks down
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  on her. Now she looks down on herself,
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  but she's still sensitive to somebody looking down on her.
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  And you would think that, you know, this would have never
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  worked at the beginning, but it does because everything works
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  bathed in the honeymoon stage glow.
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  And so these are the kind of guys where they have like this
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  really good job and they're really successful and they're
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  always very ambitious and she just basically is not as
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  competent as them and she can't. She's highly sensitive and she
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  needs more sleep and she's very sensitive to anything happening
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  to her. And and friend drama gets her
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  upset and family drama gets her upset and he's the port in the
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  storm. But he kind of thinks she's a
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  little fucked up. Over time, he's his patience
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  wanes and then she gets her feelings hurt by him.
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  He starts to be like the oppressor, like everybody else.
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  So then at some point this person goes to therapy and
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  they're like, Oh my God, I'm recreating exactly how I grew
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  up, right? And my father always looked down
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  on my mother or my mother always looked down on my father.
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  And could you imagine I'm doing the exact same thing because I
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  have no self esteem. I'm pregnant now or I have kids
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  now or whatever, whatever. So it's been a few years, and I
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  don't want to raise them like this.
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  I don't want to think that I'm an incompetent piece of shit
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  like I was raised to think I want to work on myself.
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  Esteem. Maybe I really am good at some
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  things. Maybe I'll go back to school.
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  Maybe I'm going to try harder at my job.
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  Either way, I'm not going to replicate the crazy, you know,
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  family life that I saw. So I kind of feel good about
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  that. Maybe I'm going to try to get my
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  drinking under control. I'm going to start exercising
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  whatever, right? So she starts to feel better
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  about herself and guess what happens?
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  You would think the marriage would get worse because this is
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  always what he wanted was for her to stop maybe laying around
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  and crying, and instead it gets worse.
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  You know why? Because the entire dynamic was
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  predicated on him being better and healthier than her.
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  And she wouldn't have picked this guy.
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  She would have seen him as emotionally avoidant or
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  narcissistic even if she had been healthier.
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  But she had such low self esteem that she couldn't see clearly
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  that he looked down on her and that everything the dynamic was
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  predicated on this, right? So then she gets healthier.
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  And then what's his purpose? His purpose was to be the normal
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  one that could do stuff. But what if she turns into a
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  normal person that can do stuff too?
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  What if she doesn't need him to navigate the world for her?
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  What if she starts to make more money and she is raising kids
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  and the kids are turning out pretty good and she's happy with
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  how she's parenting that? What if she makes some more
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  friends? What if she takes some Zoloft
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  and her social anxiety drops, you know, and she's able to talk
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  to people, whatever, whatever the case may be, right?
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  So then she starts to interrogate more of the marriage
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  and she's like, wait, what? Like that?
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  He looks down on me. He's actually not a perfect
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  person. Why did I ever think he was, you
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  know, and why did he let me think that?
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  And why doesn't he want to work on himself, too?
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  He has this problem and that problem, and I'm working on
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  myself. Why doesn't he work on himself,
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  right? And so then the problems start.
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  So her mental health and her confidence improving actually
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  led to a deterioration in the marriage because the dynamic is
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  stressed. And an example of this that I
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  always give to everybody, and you may have heard it my podcast
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  before is the movie when a man loves a woman.
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  Meg Ryan gets control of her drinking and the whole marriage
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  with Andy Garcia goes to shit. That is not a spoiler.
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  That's pretty much the whole thing.
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  So you got to watch that, you know?
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  And it doesn't matter if you don't drink, it's it's relevant
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  to anybody, right? So you know what would be an
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  example? Some people kind of get limited
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  by by their imagination in terms of flipping the gender.
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  What's an example specifically to men that I see when a man
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  starts to feel more confident? I mean, this is obvious when a
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  man starts to feel more confident about himself because
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  he does a lot better at work, finally has a job, He's making
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  some money. Yeah.
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  Not he finally has a job. He always had a job, but the job
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  is much better. He's getting promoted.
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  They really respect him in the workplace.
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  He's interacting with more people.
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  People tend to look up to him. You know, he's not low man on
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  the totem pole, right. So then he starts to this man
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  who originally thought that he was kind of, you know, a piece
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  of shit in some way and not very good and not very worthwhile,
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  and so therefore he should be with a woman who doesn't have
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  much sex with him and isn't very nice to him.
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  He starts to be like, wait, why am I doing that at work?
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  People respect me. Out in the world, people respect
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  me. Sometimes this happens to people
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  be their gender. When they lose weight or they
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  start to feel better about their looks, they start to say, hmm,
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  people respect me. I feel like the only person who
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  doesn't really respect me is my partner.
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  And so this person's confidence improves.
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  They get a handle on whatever self esteem or anxiety or
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  depression issues they had and or addiction and then the
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  marriage looks a lot different, right?
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  And they lose a lot of patience with previous dynamics that were
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  OK with that. And when a person can control
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  volatility, so anger management. So sometimes men are very
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  reactive and angry, right. So they yell very quick, or they
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  they grab the kids or whatever they do when they can control
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  that in therapy. And that is a primary focus.
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  Then their major thing that the woman was always putting up
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  with, and that was why she didn't want to be close for
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  real. I mean, of course it would be
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  why she was cold to him. This was like kind of the
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  dynamic is he can't control himself.
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  He drinks, he's uses porn, whatever he does.
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  But when he finally hacks that, she's still cold to him, of
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  course she is. There's years and years of
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  empathic ruptures. Plus, she was never a warm
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  person, you know, He just never thought he deserved a warm
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  person because he thought that he is somebody who struggles
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  with his temper and he struggles with volatility and he struggles
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  with impulsivity. So people who feel that they are
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  very impulsive and they can't control themselves tend to look
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  primarily for somebody who is a stable presence, who just kind
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  of is the same all the time because they envy that person
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  that they're impressed by that. And so they end up with these
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  kind of people, right, And some. And then when they, though, can
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  work on their own volatility and their own impulsivity, then what
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  does the other person have to offer?
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  If they can be stable themselves, So if they can be
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  the the rock that they need themselves, you know, then it
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  changes everything really, because they don't need anybody
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  anymore to just be a stable presence.
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  They want more from the relationship.
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  So this also overlaps with my post and my podcast, the wife
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  who wants more and her annoyingly satisfied husband.
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  So frequently women think that they just want this stable,
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  reliable guy because they're in this different stage of life
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  where they're just trying to have babies, you know, And they
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  think that that'll be great and it'll be like Dharma and Greg,
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  that's the dynamic. I always say that TV show, she
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  was like a hippie and he was like an investment banker or
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  something, right. In reality, Dharma would have
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  been pretty, pretty irritated with his lack of imagination
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  over time. But since it's ATV show, they
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  balance each other out. And there are some people who
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  balance each other out, but usually those people do not have
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  extensive childhood, you know, trauma or emotional neglect.
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  If you don't know what I mean by emotional neglect, there's a
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  great book Running on Empty by Jonas Webb, you know, that I
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  frequently recommend. So the the point is here, if you
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  got into a dynamic with your partner that was in large part
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  predicated by on you having low self esteem and then somehow
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  being able to keep things more normal for you or give you like
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  a beard. You know, like a like like to to
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  to be the person in the world that if you got that person then
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  things could aren't really that bad.
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  There's a lot of men that get very attractive wives that don't
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  want to have sex with them because it's more important to
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  them at that phase of life. They know she's low libido,
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  she's been low libido from go. But there's something in them.
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  They have such low self esteem that they need this hot wife.
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  They need that as a signifier to the world that they're doing
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  well and that they got this hot woman, but she doesn't really
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  want to touch them. And when they're a young guy,
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  they just kind of don't really think about it.
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  They think, all right, well, quite honestly, I'll just jerk
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  off. Like really like that is that
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  that that's the thing. They just, they're using so much
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  porn anyway as young men that they think, all right, well, you
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  know, I'll supplement this with sex with her when she does and
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  she'll be a good mom and that's it.
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  That is what it is. And subconsciously, without
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  saying it, they think I don't deserve everything right?
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  Because I myself am fairly unappealing, unattractive
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  person, not very magnetic to women.
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  And now I've got this attractive woman and and so I'm going to do
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  everything, you know, can't have everything.
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  And while of course you can't have everything, the things that
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  lower self esteem people raised in dysfunctional households are
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  willing to settle for is something that later on when
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  they work on their confidence, they no longer find healthy at
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  all. So many guys that I work with
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  when we go back, like at first they say, Oh yeah, sex really
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  dropped off. Like dropped off.
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  Oh, really? Maybe you're going to be the
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  outlier, right? And of course, I talk all the
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  time, sex does drop off over the honeymoon stage, but when it
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  goes to completely sexless before the woman starts to age
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  on hormonal changes. So like, sexless in the 30s,
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  right? Like when the people are in
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  their 30s, right? Or before that, Even if it goes
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  to sexless when you're in your 20s or 30s, there were there
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  were problems before. And then they're like, Oh, well,
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  yeah, You know, she never, she never really liked Todd.
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  She was always pretty squeamish. We could only do it one way in
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  the dark. We really, I guess we did it
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  after every date. But that was when we were long
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  distance, you know, So I guess that was every other week.
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  And then she can never do it two days in a row.
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  So I guess at our peak it was every other week.
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  But now it's really worse. It's never, well, I mean, yeah,
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  I guess it's worse, sure. But it was never good, you know?
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  And why did you then stay with somebody when it was never good?
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  Because of your own self esteem issues.
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  That's the only reason. And so when people start to work
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  on those things, then they realize, you know, certain
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  things no longer are acceptable to them.
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  And that's quite different. So if you are in this situation
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  where you have worked on your mental health and your
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  confidence and you are now not accepting the same sorts of
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  things in a partner, couples therapy is the next step, right?
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  Because otherwise, you know, like your partner, it's not fair
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  to them. You're changing the frame.
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  You were OK with certain things. They were OK with certain
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  things. Nothing was really discussed,
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  nothing was articulated. This was all below the conscious
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  level. And now you're switching and you
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  have all these expectations for them.
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  That wouldn't be fair at work, right?
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  Like if your boss was like, hey, you know what?
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  Now I'm thinking actually you're going to be the face of the
• 15:09
  company. You're going to be on flights
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  all the time, and you're going to, you know, and you're going
• 15:13
  to be doing all all this extra work.
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  And that's what it feels like when somebody tries to change up
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  the marital dynamic without your consent, really, and without
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  anything in a way that you would have never predicted and that
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  you don't feel prepared for And maybe you can't do it.
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  Maybe you just can't do it. Maybe that woman in the example,
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  the the attractive woman who doesn't like sex, well, she
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  never liked sex. So you know, now that you have
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  higher self esteem, why should she?
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  You know, like sex. It's pretty much not fair to
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  her. But if she loves you maybe and
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  and is and then things are explained a certain way and she
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  could see the trajectory of the change and overall the marriage
• 15:49
  is better and a better template for her children's marriages,
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  etcetera, then maybe she could learn to kind of get outside her
• 15:56
  comfort zone. It's very hard to do that just
• 15:59
  out of nowhere without any sort of help or or understanding of
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  what's going on. So This is why, you know, after
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  people go to enough individual counseling and they feel better
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  about themselves sometimes, then they need couples counseling and
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  sometimes the marriage doesn't work out.
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  That's the real, real truth, you know, But but a lot of times it
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  does. And of course, if the marriage
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  was a good, healthy marriage, you know, the healthier it was
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  and the better childhoods both of you had, then the likelier it
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  is that you guys can work together.
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  And the more you love each other, the more you have
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  external motivators like young children, et cetera, et cetera,
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  et cetera. So it's not a lost cause, but
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  you you do see that when people remarry, it's frequently they
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  have like a lot happier relationships with somebody
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  that's kind of more more compatible with them, you know,
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  and they're the things that weren't working in the first
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  marriage. They don't usually replicate in
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  the second. In the subset of people that are
• 17:00
  in this situation where they did a lot of therapy, they learned
• 17:03
  more about themselves, they increased their self esteem,
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  well, then they tend to kind of go to a much healthier marriage,
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  you know, because people are like, oh, what about the
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  statistic where people are likelier to divorce if they've
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  been divorced? Yeah, sure.
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  Most people do not do any deep introspective work on
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  themselves. You know, most people, it's just
• 17:21
  that marriage ended in a volatile blow up and now they're
• 17:23
  going to go do that with the next person.
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  But in the subset of people that are engaged in, you know, really
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  transformative work internally, well, they're not going to just
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  go to a worse situation. That's like, the entire point is
• 17:36
  that they know themselves better and they have higher standards.
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  You know, standards that they couldn't have had the first time
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  because they didn't have any high standards, even for
• 17:44
  themselves, because they didn't think they could.
• 17:47
  All right, I hope you guys found this interesting.
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  And as always, reach out. If you ever need a therapist or
• 17:52
  a coach, I have lots of people at Best Life Behavioral Health,
• 17:55
  Please subscribe and I'll talk to Y'all soon.
• 17:58
  Have a great day.