Latest / Through the Sh#t with Jen McDowell / My Trauma is Not My Identity

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My Trauma is Not My Identity · Through the Sh#t with Jen McDowell

• speaker-0: For me, I had a moment where that identity around suffering, it just no longer served me. I can't really describe how it no longer served me. It just didn't fit. It was like a piece of clothing that didn't like an itchy tag. And for a long time it was my whole thing. And then just one day It just no longer felt true. It's sort of like when you're it's like for forever it felt true. It felt like the best sweatshirt, you know, the most cozy hoodie. And then all of a sudden it was like, ⁓ that doesn't look good anymore. It's just not my shade. You know, like speaker-1: Yeah. Welcome, I'm Jen McDowell, and you're listening to Through the Shit, a podcast for anyone going through the shit and the people who love them. And every episode we'll hear a new story of loss, hope, and resilience, and how going through the shit led to something greater. So if you're in the shit now and feeling lost or alone, disconnected from your badass self, or in need of an ember of hope to keep putting one foot in front of the other, you're in the right place. So settle in, prepare to be moved and inspired, and welcome to The Shit. Welcome everybody here listening to Through the Shit. I'm your host, Jen McDowell. Joining me today is Anna, and she is going to be telling us about a series of events in her earlier years that led to a radical shift in her identity and formed her relationship to change and helped clarify her purpose in her 40s. Anna, welcome. speaker-0: Hi Jen, glad to be here. Thanks for having me. speaker-1: Yeah. Thank you very much. I'm I'm glad for you to be here as well. And I know you have a really amazing story to tell our listeners. So, listeners, buckle up. Anna is a dynamic trainer, capacity builder, and organizational leader committed to racial and social justice. Shaped by her lived experience navigating the juvenile justice system and more than 15 years working alongside young people and communities fighting for change. She brings deep expertise in community organizing, movement building, and youth-led systems change. She is currently an independent organizational consultant and instructor supporting local and national youth-led organizations. Anna, why don't you tell us a little bit about how we met? Because I think we've known each other for a couple of years now, maybe. speaker-0: Yeah, well, really sparks of connection. So we met through a powerful connection through a friend and what is now called a badass group of women. Cause you know we are so really through an exciting, I think the first time we met, I got to be in your living room, which was really great. You opened your home to a group of us who were really just all doing amazing things. And it was an opportunity to just meet so many powerful women. in so many different backgrounds and fields, that's what I loved about that event that you threw is that it really felt like, well, not an event, but it was still an opportunity to learn and meet people. And so it's been really awesome to see that group and your leadership flourish in that. So even though I don't always get to come to all of the things, ⁓ to get this to kind of witness how that has evolved has been really powerful. And so yeah, through through one friend came many friends, came a much bigger network. of really incredible powerful women. So thank you for that. speaker-1: Awesome. Yeah. And I mean, that's kind of how it happens, right? Is it t takes one spark to start a fire, ⁓ which is kind of a bad analogy, maybe here in New Mexico where it's really dry and we are in wildfire season. But ⁓ but yeah, so but I have enjoyed ⁓ our friendship and very much appreciate appreciate it and ⁓ am glad that you are here to tell your story. So ⁓ let's talk a little bit about through the shit. You know, you've talked about this series of experiences that you've had over your early years. ⁓ guests have heard me talk about what through the shit means for me and my own experience, but what does that mean for you? speaker-0: Yeah. Whew. ⁓ Wow. So it's funny. I w you know, what specifically through the shit means for me is a lot of things. It's it's trudging with purpose. So that's where it's come to in my life. You know, I'll kind of start to where I've gotten to what it means. ⁓ what it meant in the beginning was suffering, grief, ⁓ hardship only. And now I think of getting through the shit as this idea of trudging with purpose. You know, it's not always easy. It's not something I I always want to endure. The timing of it often feels like ⁓ I'm on an episode of punk or ⁓ you know, some other thing, but that when I can kind of connect that what I'm going through or the challenge that I'm going through is something that's connecting me to a greater purpose. I feel like the weight of it feels more intentional. So you know, that's my broad sort of if you're asking my definition and my experience with it is a little bit different over time and how I got there. So I don't know if you'd like me to just jump right into that or speaker-1: not. But yeah, I I mean don't jump in just yet. But I mean, I think it's this idea of transformation of the weight that you're carrying. initially it starts with this real s sort sense of slogging. Yes. ⁓ and now there is still some weight associated to it, but you understand the purpose of it and you have connection to that purpose. And so it feels ⁓ more work by choice rather than kind of a victim mindset. Like this thing happened and I have to react to it. And now it's an embracing of the r the responsibility and the role that you have. speaker-0: Yes, totally, completely. Thank you for that. That's like I love that articulation of it, of the shifting of weight. I've heard ⁓ a healer of mine has said, ⁓ there's no bad energy. It's just energy that needs to move. And I've really appreciated that idea of like sometimes when when I'm in it, like whatever that is, you know, when I'm in the shit, it's like this is mal or this is bad, you know, this is this must only be bad. And I love that notion of shifting the weight. I can actually almost feel that in my body. Like, right, it moves into something that's more workable and more intentional. Like, yeah, heavy with purpose versus heavy with sadness or ⁓ hopelessness. So I love that. I thank you. I really took something from that. Yeah. Well speaker-1: All right. Well good. Are you ready to tell me your shit? speaker-0: Yeah, yes. I am ready. Okay. You know, as we said in the intro, I don't think there's been one shit. It's probably multiple multiple shit. So I've been sober and in recovery since I was twenty six years old. I'm forty five now. And when I tell my story, which is, you know, I I often do tell my story a lot, both publicly and personally in recovery communities, but most people assume that the hardest part of my story was the drugs and alcohol themselves. But the truth is that I was way in I was way in the shit long before substances really even entered the picture and even into my recovery. ⁓ my mom died when I was ⁓ eleven days before my fifth birthday. And I will often I mean, it's obviously a significant part of my life. ⁓ and I usually start you know, I often start my story, so to speak, with that event. And I think like that loss, it really shaped so much. And there was so many other branches of loss that came out of that. I think our family really got, you know, shaped. It's like our tree grew around this massive event in our life. And so there there were other things that kind of came out of that, but That time of being, I mean, frankly, the brain isn't even really developed to totally understand, you know, what's going on. I really began to act out in ways both conscious and unconscious to see either get that grief relief essentially from that grief. At the same time, in that, you know, I kind of, as I grew up with those sort of branches of grief kind of growing out of me. My dad, as a result of some of those behaviors, my dad voluntarily gave up his custody of me and he put me in the juvenile justice system. And I became, ⁓ essentially I became ward of the state, which really kind of reinforced this belief that I was I had from the loss of my mom. I think at that time when I was five, I learned that the world was unsafe. ⁓ at a time when I was supposed to be learning that the world was safe and the world was predictable and that when I cried my parents would feed me, right? And so when a event like a big loss like that happens, ⁓ I think I just learned that love could disappear, that anything could happen and the world was maybe hostile. That's what I learned. You know, I didn't have that language at the time. So then when my dad kind of made that choice at the time, I think I only reinforced this kind of growing sense of myself that you know, that the world was unsafe and that I was somehow either at fault or to blame or or yeah, I don't know, just really kind of an ever-evolving, I don't know if it was victim at the time, but definitely ⁓ an interesting way to carry the shit, you know. And I carried that story for a really long time about myself and the world, that I was both bad and the world was hostile and and then drugs and alcohol came. So ⁓ and really that was the way they coped. I would say getting the shit of it all wasn't I mean, those there are subsequent things that happen as a result of drug and alcohol use that aren't cool and bring on many other traumas, but ⁓ they were really, really essentially how I coped that story that was created again when I was five, you know, and then again when I was sixteen about myself and about the world. And when I got sober ⁓ recovery saved my life. It's a hundred percent ⁓ you know, part of the resilience of the shit. But what I I guess I'd I'd say is that even in recovery, what I didn't realize for a very long time was that I was still carrying that deeper identity. I really still had that wounded, abandoned, like struggle mentality. It's like that same tree of grief now kind of grew. And wrapped itself around who I was. And it was very hard to want to let it go. Like it was also became a coping mechanism to be someone who just felt like so in pain all of the time. And I think ⁓ the moment I really knew that I was deep in the shit is when I realized that the trauma had just hadn't just created that painful experiences that had. fundamentally shaped my worldview and it had convinced me about of stories of myself that just weren't true. And I think that moving through that is been this ever-evolving process that has really been a beautiful experience and something that I'm I'm very grateful for. But ⁓ yeah, that it was time, I guess it like I said in my 40s, it took a while. It took a long time from 26 to I'm 45 now. To realize that ⁓ chaos is not normal and that suffering isn't mandatory and being an addict or broken isn't who I am. It's something I've been through. And really my life is about un has been my deepest work, my deepest shit has been about unraveling my relationship to the wounded one, to the painful one. and kind of letting go of those survival strategies ⁓ that I mistook for my identity, frankly. ⁓ and so yeah, that's that's my I mean, you know, there's much more nuance to many of that story, but I think the bigger thing is that is that I now am like excited to be someone who doesn't suffer. And I'm excited to be someone who loves and has joy and ⁓ you know, has such an amazing and beautiful life, which I do. And no longer sees myself as bad and no longer sees the world as hostile, you know, and and has begun to relate and to use my experience to be of service first to others and then of service to myself and then to now be able to truly feel aligned to my purpose around all of it. So yeah, I don't know. There's probably a lot a lot in there. We we can kind of come back to it if you want, but you know, that's that's my being in the shit for a while. speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ thank you for sharing that. ⁓ and I'm, you know, just sort of thinking about how I can see parallels to my own circumstances. ⁓ but I think the thing I want to come back to first before we kind of dig into it and pull on some of these other threads that stood out to me is this idea of you kind of didn't know it at the time. You got sober and it sounds like your sort of identification of shit happening was sort of after the shit was already over. Do I have that right? speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah. No trim yeah, yeah, yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. So tell me a little bit about that moment where you first maybe had that glimmer of clarity looking back and seeing the circumstance as it really was. speaker-0: ⁓ gosh, that's such a good question. ⁓ I mean, there were moments, you know. I think actually I've gotten glimmers in so many different ways, so many awakenings at so many different times in my life. And I think the first the first glimmer that I got, I believe, or spark of clarity came. upon with physical sobriety. It came with getting into a recovery community that my kind of hardened and hard heart, my survival heart, felt a sense of care. And I I wanted to be a part of the world. Like for only about five seconds. It's like it didn't it I wasn't just jumping from, you know, I wasn't jumping up and down or having these moments. It's like I witnessed good and goodness, I think, and other people. And for a split second, the possibility of something different for myself seemed more real. It seemed like I didn't have it and I felt it in a very deep physical way. And then it just left, you know, but I had the structure of these people, of this community, of this place to go, ⁓ that kind of allowed me to move my feet. And to show up, ⁓ so that I could kind of almost like churn that feeling bigger and bigger and bigger. But like I said, ⁓ that very first glimmer of clarity, ⁓ yeah, it it didn't last, which is what I kinda think I strive for for a really long time was like, How do you make that last forever? But I'm just grateful I got it at all, you know, that I had that moment where something different was possible. And frankly, I witnessed it in other people. It didn't come from my own sense of being empowered, you know, it came from witnessing the hope and possibility in other people. So that was probably the first time that I got that initial breakthrough, you know? speaker-1: Yeah. And and it sucks that it's a glimmer, right? Because I remember thinking like, how do I get this thing to be permanent? but I think you're touching on something that's really important because when people go through trauma, these narratives start to develop. And because w at least for me, when it was happening in childhood, there was no context or frame of reference given to it. So, you know, I I didn't know that those narratives weren't entirely accurate, but this idea of like, I'm unsafe, the world is a hostile place, it's my fault, I'm bad, like having those narratives ingrained in you over and over again. And then when you see the possibility of like, ⁓ wait, it's it maybe isn't that, that can be a really powerful experience. speaker-0: Yeah. No, it is so. And I I think this is not language or understanding I had at that time, but I later learned about neuroplasticity through my through my career. And it's really similar. It's like what you're saying, right? It's like the po the possibility and while harder as we grow older, that what that experience was was building a new neural pathway in my brain. I was I was like By witnessing other people's growth, by feeling a sense of like a small part of my connection to their possibility and my own possibility, I was having a fundamental shift in the way I could not only operate ⁓ and see the world, but my brain was changing too, you know, that I was going to be able to have new a new, not just perspective, but new connection and reaction to the world through that one's these one single moments. And I always hold on to that. I really just this like. idea that we can change, that change is possible both on a neuroscience level and in just like a cosmic and relational level, you know, on a personal deep level. So yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's I remember one of my healthcare providers talking about neuroplasticity and using the analogy of going to the gym, right? You don't go to the gym just once to get strong muscles. You go once and it's the repeated, you know, to sort of reset the new pathway. And then it's the persistent practice in going back and redoing that exercise over and over again that helps strengthen that pathway. ⁓ and so ⁓ I think that that consistency is important, taking that hope, that possibility from something that you see outside yourself and being able to embody it internally. speaker-0: Yeah. No, most definitely. And you know, I think the you know, it's so many things. I wish I you know, if I fully understood it all, I I don't know. I would either be I might yeah, like I don't who who knows who I would be in the world. But I think too is that I had to take risks to have new experiences that continue to shape and reinforce those beliefs, you know? If like I had to Once the possibility of a new pathway was created, I had to keep going to the gym, you know, I had to keep I had to keep trying things out and testing and testing, right? It's like I don't like that first glimmer was one, but really it was sort of this gr it was truly the spark of grad more gradual realization over time as I lived my life and continued to make mistakes, but then would have new perspective on those mistakes or those challenges instead of it. reinforcing those old ideas or those old beliefs about myself and the world. It's like I had to sort of act, live, learn, evaluate, like reassign different meaning to it than I had when I was growing up. And and I think over time that starts to shift and chip away at some of these things. I start to feel like, okay, I I have faith in myself. I have faith in the world. I have a new, a new experience. Yeah. And I'm not quite sure if that relates exactly to what you're saying, but it's sort of just this idea of like, you know, life is our gym. You know, in my opinion, it's like I it's like it's like I have to keep bumping up against all of these things that ⁓ in the world that are gonna continue to shape that pathway, you know, and reinforce positivity and connection, you know. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I love this idea of life as our gym. ⁓ but what what was coming up for me was this idea of, you know, when you I know now through my own trauma healing experiences is that those narratives, I'm broken, ⁓ the world is an unsafe place, those are really deeply entrenched and they're hard to let go of. And even though I've done so much trauma work, they still come up every now and then. but one of the things that I see so often with clients is like, getting comfortable taking risks again because it's like you've forgotten how to sort of trust and to do that. And it does really take time. And so how did you start to take risks again in a way that felt safe while you were still sort of building this new muscle of, I can do this? speaker-0: ⁓ yeah. Whew. You know I'll get back to no, I'm just kidding. ⁓ you know, the common guy no, I'm just thinking like, ⁓ it's an ever l ever evolving process, right? Like we fall I can fall back into that for sure. But ⁓ gosh, I mean such a beautiful experience. I I think so I had a really beautiful group of people that ⁓ created space for authenticity. And again, we didn't have this language. Like again, I I got when I got sober, I was twenty-six. That was whatever, you know, it's two thousand seven or something. And I the world was different. Like I didn't have all the language that I I think that that we had then or whatever. But ⁓ they by being themselves allowed me to be myself. And I was my nervous system was looking for that. Like I was looking for that level of authenticity. And ⁓ I think that that group held me. I couldn't do this by myself. And I I I think it can be really hard for folks because a lot of our deep trauma is relational. And again, it's like it's relational to ourselves, to people, human beings, and then to the universe. And so taking that risk to like be held by a community, I don't take it for granted that I that I had that opportunity because that's where I bumped my head. That's where people kinda loved me. ⁓ until I could, you know, take that next risk. ⁓ so I definitely think community was something that that held me. ⁓ and also I learned to show up in that community. So that would be ⁓ we have phrases like, move your feet first, you know, your head will follow. I had this belief, I didn't know, but for a long time I thought I had to feel good before I took an action. It's like, yeah, I just like had to reason it out, it had to make sense and I had to feel good, you know? And then I will act. And honestly, and I don't say this in any religious context. I don't have that background, but it does take a leap of faith the first time because ⁓ I didn't feel good. I I didn't love myself. ⁓ I didn't even know how I mean at twenty six I had not graduated high school. I Or maybe I got my G D you know, it's like I didn't have a lot going for me basically, you know. So I didn't have a lot of foundation to to to lean on and I just I guess I just had to try with the safety of my community and learn that I didn't have to feel good to take the first step. In fact, I wasn't going to feel good. I had to just put my feet on the path of my values and take a risk and see what happened. And then over time I got to build faith in that sort of valued walk or that the people in my life or even myself follow through, you know? ⁓ Yeah, I wish I had a more clear answer, but truthfully it's like probably crossed my fingers, you know, held my nose and just jump jumped in the pool a couple of times, you know? And then later it became and and it's being of service and that's something we can talk about. It's like I do think I there's this notion in that community of like how to show up despite how you're feeling, how to make the coffee, do the thing, you know, be kind of responsible to this group in a way, even when I couldn't do it for myself. And then that brought this bridge to like a greater purpose in my life now. ⁓ so things felt risky risky less risky, excuse me, a ⁓ after that kind of growing process that speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, thank you for that because that's what I saw in my own experiences. I see it in my clients as well, is this idea of, ⁓ I don't know if this came up in another podcast ⁓ or in a coaching conversation, but this idea of like bowling with the bumpers up, right? You have to create an environment where you're not gonna fall into the gutter. So it's like, how do you set yourself up to take risks in a way that feels safe? And for you, it was this community who sort of served as the guardrails to help you take risks, but also model what that looked like, which I think is really important as well. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And to know that I mean, life is messy. So I I had a mentor used to always say, I can do anything I want as long as I'm willing to accept the consequences. And that part of the journey was like and this may be different for different people, but for me, I didn't and still don't think happiness is the goal. Like a because it's elusive, it's a moving target. And if I stay in this idea of like, I'm never gonna be in this shit or ⁓ I won't. you know, every risk is to feel great, then I think I will always kind of miss it, you know, or I'll be frankly stay in a constant state of suffering. And so it was really kinda helpful to someone just was like, Yeah, like you're not in a dress rehearsal. Your life is at a dress rehearsal. Like you're in it, live it, be messy, like roll around in the dirt. Pick up the tools, like are there nutrients in the shit? Which is pretty disgusting to say. But you know, is take what you want from that, learn from it and grow. And it's like I'm in I'm in an ever evolving process of like through this yeah, like not every risk worked out and also just being okay with that, you know, like the bumper lanes are great and the community held me. And I threw some wacky balls, you know? Like I took some wacky rides along the way, you know? And That was okay too, 'cause I couldn't just, ⁓ you can't yeah, like I I notice this in organizations. I notice it with people I work with 'cause I work with both individuals and in organizations. And I think, you know, we can prep all the live long day and we can mitigate, mitigate, mitigate and we can try to assume every scenario and there are li life is unpredictable, you know? And we have to be able to we have to be able to try something. And be okay that it's not gonna work out because I think that's the way we learn the most, you know. So some of that is like just being okay that the path is not always straight down the lane, you know. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love what you said about happiness as a moving target and don't wait to make it perfect because life is not a dress rehearsal. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Yes. speaker-1: Yeah, and and just keep moving. I mean, even if it's a tiny step, you know, I have clients that I can that I think of, you know, they want to sort of know the end result so that they can totally, you know, just be on the path. but I often have to talk with them about like take a step, any step, because the further you get, the more data, like each step is a piece of data. And the more data you gather, the more you can continue to refine. Because even if it's a step in the wrong direction, you're gonna figure out it's in the wrong direction and you can course correct. speaker-0: Hundred percent. Yes. Yeah. speaker-1: Okay, so let's talk a little bit about this idea of propelling forward because you've talked about how all of these experiences has have, you know, informed the way that you think about change and your purpose. So tell me a little bit about that moment when you started to get that clarity and you yourself had gathered enough data to figure out the direction you wanted to move. speaker-0: Yeah, and ⁓ I think like ⁓ you know, pretty pretty heavy on the idea of that. It probably happened over time. But I think as I've gotten into a and I'll talk a little bit about some of the steps that got me there and some of the really powerful moments that have helped, but now my forties I'm I think what I'm I for me, I had a moment where that identity around suffering, it just no longer served me. I can't really describe how it no longer served me. It just didn't fit. It was like a piece of clothing that didn't like a itchy tag, you know. It was like I would start to be kind of pain forward, you know, or like trauma forward about myself, which is okay. That used to connect me to people and I wanna honor that the story around my past and my pain one hundred percent gave me purpose for a very long time. And it really helped me to deeply connect with other people. And for a long time it was my whole thing. And then just one day, it was almost like an it just no longer felt true. It's sort of like when you're, it's like for forever it felt true. It felt like the best sweatshirt, you know, the most cozy hoodie. And then all of a sudden it was like. ⁓ that doesn't look good anymore. It's just not my shade. You know, like I it doesn't feel nice. It's like it's like, ⁓ like actually, ⁓ I've worked really, really hard on myself and actually I've I've like done all this work and I've built this huge career and I've helped many people and I was able to be like, that's the person I am today. And while other people have told me that for a really long time, like Other people had expressed that to me, of course, you know, and and I don't say that in an egotistical way. I just say that like right, like people reinforce to us things about ourselves that are positive we can't see. And it was like all of a sudden I was willing to stand on my own business. I was like, I am the shit, you know? I am, you know, and not in again like in a grandiosity way. It's more just like, yeah, like, ⁓ this person I am is useful. This person I am is, you know, helpful to my community and has built lifelong lasting relationships with people and has helped create a lot of change ⁓ in the world and that felt okay to say. Like it's just like that felt more ⁓ I felt less scared because I think and I'm probably not quite answering the question yet. It's like more of a lead-in, but ⁓ I don't know if this is kind of what we were saying before, but joy hurts more than pain. And I've worked with a lot of people For a long time in the child welfare system, both with individuals who've been in the child welfare system as as well as organizations. And I can tell you both the system and the individual, when you ask people to vision, you I will almost inevitably witness a sort of dis emotional dysregulation to potential breakdown. It is so much harder for individuals and systems to feel into the joy of their future when they are both in survival or trauma. And I had to tolerate joy. I just had to learn how to tolerate joy, which was one of the harder things ever, you know? And then finally it was like, yes, you know, like I'm in it. I want more of this. I want more joy. I want more ⁓ Yeah, like it just felt like more part of me. So I don't know, you know, if I could say there was something I did, you know, I've been in therap. I've been in recovery, like I said, almost ⁓ 19 years this year. I've done therapy. I have done therapy since I was five. You know, I've done a lot of things so I can relate to the person who's like, I've done every tool. I've done somatics. I've done this, you it's like I've tried everything. And I love my teachers who have said, like, you know what, you don't know the seed that you're planting because then that day that I woke up not very long ago, just a couple of years ago, and ⁓ I was in a moment where I needed to ask for help again. Cause that identity no longer served me. And I and I got met with the same love and care and I started leaning into possibility instead of ⁓ trying to predict or keep myself safe. And so it's a really powerful moment. And, you know, I I will say this thing, which is probably going on, but is to say that ⁓ what really also helped propel me, not only is that moment of clarity, but is that leading into all of this, I I almost just didn't have a choice. Like I sort of came to the place where the suffering kind of pushed me towards recovery. And then recovery got me into how you know more tools and kind of towards a more healing. But the healing in and of itself is what got me to more truth. It's like the healing wasn't the end, it was like the process that got me to greater clarity. And I I've now been able to use those gifts. Like Now I realize that I didn't let go of the part of me. Like, ⁓ I'm not just in my joy era doing nothing, you know? Like I'm not like, yeah, now I'm I don't have to do any of that grind. It's like I've actually instead of grinding, I'm able to say, ⁓ like that survival is a part of my greatest strengths. And that growing up in uncertainty has taught me how to read systems and ⁓ that navigating trauma has given me in like very high level pattern recognition and like lots struggling helps me to build trust with multiple like the work that I do is ⁓ not clinical but I work again both with individuals and larger systems and in organizations and I'm able to almost like see these stuck points. And for many people they think, ⁓ no, this is a system. This is operational and it is, but it's also relational and also some like deeply connected. Like I think these patterns that played out in my own individual story, I can see play out so clearly in the way we get stuck or way organizations get stuck or people get stuck. And I think now I'm able to use those gifts. I know I'm able to use those gifts to to like be the bumpers essentially for other people and to help unlock that for other people in a way. ⁓ or even just to say them until they can unlock it, till they get the moment that I got. 'Cause some of that is all that I c that we can do, right? Is like highlight back to people. And in that service, I think I created a sense of purpose, you know, in like that alchemy of of basically just changing my pain to purpose, I think has made me is it's probably the single most thing that has helped me to propel forward. ⁓ you know, after having those kind of moments along the way, you know. And that didn't is that that I was of service before I got the the sort of epiphany of of joy. I was of service first and then the the ability to really put that new coat on came after. But ⁓ now I wear it very proudly. So Yeah. Kind of long way. speaker-1: I mean, there there are so many visuals that were coming up for me as I was listening to you. ⁓ and I think the one that I wanna r go back to is what you were talking about in terms of sort of l shedding or letting go of that identity. You know, this is not who I am, it's something that I've been through. and and I think about, you know, you talked about this tree at the beginning, and I think you talked about it again later in our conversation about the tree grows around the thing. ⁓ but the tree becomes this beautiful structure, this beautiful living thing that can still have shade and provide value and do what it needs to do, in spite of you know, having a hole in the center of it. and I think because you have learned through the healing process to do that, because you have sort of alchemized this pain into. you know, a more purposeful carrying of the weight, it's given you like the superpower essentially, which is X-ray vision. When you go in with organizations, you can like dial in and see what's happening because because of this experience that you have and and it can bring a sense of value to organizations that, you know, that are in in great need of it. speaker-0: definitely. And and to people, I think, you know, the work that I mean, I'm I'm so grateful because the work that I was just sharing this with somebody else and whether it's relevant or not is like the I I landed in, you know, as I said in the beginning of my story, ⁓ I was in the juvenile justice system. So I was placed in out of out of out of custody of my parents and in group homes and well a short term group home to a long term like county facility, but ⁓ many different experiences. And when I was ⁓ in there, I wrote a book for for parents to on how to deal with teenagers. You know, 'cause I thought I was just so smart, which I probably was, you know, and it was sort of like, hey, like, you know, all of these things. And so what's so amazing is I've just had such a ⁓ yeah, I've said such a great life in that from that experience I landed in working with young people in the foster care system and the juvenile justice system, that my career became essentially a pathway for creating change. And that, you know, full circle, right? Like from GED to master's degree to being able to lead a national child welfare organization for almost eight years. ⁓ and essentially being able to drive that change with people came from my lived experience. And what's interesting is is that the pain itself wasn't it. It's like you said, it's like, It was all of these different strengths that these different branches of learning, this tree that kind of grew over time that allowed me to bring those gifts back to the system. But ⁓ mostly it was that I was able to connect with people because I think that in these large scale ⁓ things that we do all the time, again, I think we forget that we're all humans and there's a heartbeat. There's a heartbeat in our land, there's a heartbeat within us, and there's a heartbeat within our organizations. And Like my hopefully my gift through this is is yeah, a keen sense of things and like an and an intelligence that can see. I don't quite know remember the word you used, but it's also I'm willing to feel the pain alongside the people that are experiencing it. I'm willing at the more I've been able to tolerate my own hurts into gold, I am able to sit with someone who is hurting without trying to change, fix, or move it. in the sense of immediacy, like that systems are normally trying to do. It's like, no, we first need to see each other and witness each other. And I've been able to organize with communities that I might not have otherwise been able to connect to, or they may not have been able to connect to me, you know, like we maybe feel that we're coming from a different place, but it's like bonded us, ⁓ because we can we've all been through the shit essentially. We've been through different shits, but that we've been through it. And so I think that's the biggest gift I've gotten out of my career is that the people that I've met and that it really is a people first experience, you know? And I know that's not exactly what you asked, but I just was thinking about that the other day. I was like thinking, wow, I just landed in this pretty beautiful pathway of ⁓ people first, even though my careers and systems change, you know? Like it's like they're not different, you know? It's like, yeah, we're all connected through our we're all connected through our kind of trudging through purpose, you know. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And and I think the the same for me, right? I f reflect back on my own circumstances. And one of the most amazing things that has come out of it is my connections to people and being able to see the connectedness of individuals, other living beings, even if we don't want to admit it. Let's go ahead and sort of start to wind things up. So I think the first question that I'd ask you is looking back, is there anything, or maybe the question is, what if anything would you do differently? speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ yeah, agreed. What if anything that I would I have done differently? I mean it's hard to say. You know, I think sometimes we don't know 'till we know. But if I if I had got those moments of clarity a little sooner, I mean I would have loved to let like ask for help sooner. I mean, it was ⁓ I think I might have you know, I think I would definitely have asked asked for help or tried joy, you know. Yeah. I mean it i i i it's it's so hard to say and so hard to know because you know, this I have regrets, but I also know that every experience has led me to who I am now. And sometimes we just can't see the hand that's reaching out for us. But for me I think I wish I had reached out sooner. ⁓ Yeah. And yeah, I think I think asking for help would have been something that's you know, something that is good. ⁓ I mean there are lessons that I think that I've learned that I wish happened sooner, but again, I'm just ⁓ I I my time is my time, but I do think like trauma can make our life feel like a lie and I start to believe that lie. And I think leaning into hope versus surviving pain. would have been awesome if I had those sooner, you know? I was like great that I might do that differently, you know. ⁓ speaker-1: I can relate to that. Yeah. ⁓ you know, I I I I regret things I've said or done, but I don't have a lot of regrets, right? Because it's sort of the path I was on and it led me here. So in the grand scheme of things, I I can't regret it because I'm happy with where I am. Yeah. y you talked about, you know, all of these things that you've learned, wanting to learn them sooner. You know, I was just sort of taking notes and some of them that I heard was this idea of, you know. ⁓ trauma is something, it's not who I am. It's something I've been through. Chaos is not normal. You talked about the importance of community. Happiness is a moving target. Don't wait to make your life perfect. ⁓ learning to tolerate joy. You said something about going from through the shit to being the shit, ⁓ which I loved. Turning your pain into purpose, and then learning how to sort of feel with the person without trying to change, fix, or, you know, move what it is that they're going through. Any other lessons at this point that I haven't ⁓ articulated? speaker-0: Yeah, that was a great that's great. And I think you you said this, but I'll just say that, you know, again, that like grief or abandonment, addiction, like all the suffering, I think we become very familiar with it. But just to remember that, ⁓ it's not who I am. Like, right? It's not it's not my personality. My personality is not suffering. I mean, I can choose that and it can become that and I can build around it, but it's those things that have either happened, like you said, the trauma is not who I am. It isn't ⁓ and it's not who I'm going to be. ⁓ that that is this really important is to sort of unwind that, ⁓ unwind those experiences from who I am, you know, and and my sense of possibility. speaker-1: Yeah, and and I think for me it was a process of getting that separation. ⁓ you know, I I call it my trauma backpack and like if at first I kind of clung to it because it was what was familiar. And then it was like, Okay, I'm gonna set it over here for a minute and then I feel unsafe, so I'm gonna pick it back up. ⁓ but eventually you get to the point where you do feel ready to let it go ⁓ because you start to recognize this it's not serving you. speaker-0: Yeah. And y there's one last thing I'll say that I didn't realize was a realization and a lesson, which is that love, that trauma backpack. ⁓ my gosh. Definitely la like, yes, that's that was me. And I think because that trauma brought me connection with people. ⁓ very real. Not I don't find it as a falsitude. I just think like it really made me feel like I was a part of something, even in recovery for a very long time. The trauma made me feel like I ⁓ was connected, it was really scary to let it go. I really had the sense of I no one will like me, I'll become goody t shit. You know, like like if I don't have the trauma backpack, how will anybody you know, like, will I ever have friends again or something, you know? And so I think the lesson for me is like, I've only deepened my connections that ⁓ while it may help me to empathize with people, that the alchemy is in the ch is letting the change letting it down. It's taking it off and knowing that people are still there and that we're all looking for that and that we can connect around the transformation and not the trauma. And ⁓ that was really important for me to know that I wouldn't lose anybody as I healed. ⁓ because it can feel really lonely to be in the junk and then it can be scary to think, you know, you might be eating near when you let it go. But that just was not my experience. I I've only been more deeply connected to people. speaker-1: Yeah, beautiful. Yeah. So last question. What would you say to someone in the shit? speaker-0: Well, okay, yes. I would say well, first I would say keep going. I know it's like I would say I would say, ⁓ my gosh, like ooh yeah, there's so much you're one degree. Like we think change. This is what I'll say this is true for me. On a Monday, I'm in the shit. And you know what? I didn't know on a Tuesday it wouldn't be. So just keep going because it's not you don't have to make a one eighty. speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. speaker-0: You really are just one degree from an entirely different life. And that life is one minute, one hour, one day away, and you don't know that day. So it could just be tomorrow. And that's how I try to show up. Like it's like what if, you know, what if tomorrow's the day? And then it's there. And and I just think it's really important. And we've already kind of talked about some of the other stuff, is that like I see that grief is real. I see the heartbreak is real and it is real, but it isn't who you are. And so if you can, you know, ask for that help, if you can try to find one person that can be your bumper, if not more, ⁓ and just to know that we all go through it and you're not alone. And the like hardest parts of ourselves, like like will be love. Like there really isn't someone who hasn't done or thought or been through it in many ways and Shame isn't useful. And so we're here for you, you know, we're here waiting for you. Those of us who've been on, you know, through it and on the other side and are still cleaning ourselves off, like there are people out there that ⁓ yeah, that are gonna be your bumper, that are gonna be your community. So just keep keep going and try that one thing and and just try to see if you can tolerate the joy too. speaker-1: Yeah. Keep at it one degree from an entirely different life and find those people to help you. speaker-0: Thanks, Jud. speaker-1: So Anna, thank you very much. I've really enjoyed being here with you today. Listeners, thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the flip side. That's it for this episode of Through the Shit. Thanks for listening. If you liked this podcast, like, share, and subscribe, and maybe send it to someone who needs a boost because they're going through the shit. While you're at it, tell them how important they are to you. If you have a story of shit to share or you're in the shit now, I'd love to hear from you. Email me at through the shit podcast at gmail.com. Or go to our website at throughthe shit.com. I'll see you on the flip side. speaker-0: Okay.