Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode #121: Beyond Labels New Year’s Resolution Challenge: Take Back Your Power

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Episode #121: Beyond Labels New Year’s Resolution Challenge: Take Back Your Power · Beyond Labels Premium

0:00
SPEAKER_01: When you have that list, you've actually already started to reclaim your power, right?
0:05
SPEAKER_01: Because awareness is the first step in taking any sort of action if you want to take it.
0:11
SPEAKER_01: Once you are aware, then you can decide if you're ready to make any changes to any of those behaviors in your life.
0:19
SPEAKER_01: But one of the main reasons, you know, I started out this podcast by saying like not only 9% of New Year's resolutions actually manifest into reality.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: One of the main reasons why, according to studies, um, one of the main reasons why New Year's resolutions don't work is because the person's not ready to change or they don't feel the need to change.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: So with this Beyond Labels New Year's Resolutions challenge, don't pressure yourself to change.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: Hi everyone.
0:48
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to another episode of the Beyond Labels podcast with uh Joel Salatin, yours truly, our farmer, and uh our favorite researcher, Dr.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: Cena McCullough.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: Happy New Year, everyone.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: We know this is coming to you right about the the New Year time.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: So um we're gonna we're gonna discuss uh New Year's resolutions a little bit with a little bit of a different take uh from a study that Cena has just read uh about uh about uh human behavior in groups and uh and and the expectations of behavior and obedience.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: And um and so then and then we'll we'll each talk about some of um some of our new year's thoughts as we enter the program.
1:30
SPEAKER_00: So Cena, take it away with the study.
1:33
SPEAKER_01: All right, thanks, Joel.
1:34
SPEAKER_01: Okay, as you know, this is the time of the year when a lot of us set goals for ourselves for the new year.
1:40
SPEAKER_01: But did you know that only about nine percent of Americans who make resolutions actually complete them?
1:47
SPEAKER_01: So, like 91% of our New Year's resolutions fail.
1:53
SPEAKER_01: So, and I have to admit, I've been in that category many a times.
1:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, in fact, I actually stopped making New Year's resolutions a few years ago because I was like, I'm just setting myself up to fail here.
2:06
SPEAKER_01: But I came up with a different twist on New Year's resolutions for this year, just for our Beyond Labels listeners.
2:13
SPEAKER_01: And so it was based on a study that I read.
2:16
SPEAKER_01: I want to quickly share that study, and then I want to offer the Beyond Labels New Year's Resolution Challenge, which I'm calling Take Back Your Power.
2:28
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I don't think many people realize, but uh I actually studied animal and human behavior in college.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: Uh, my bachelor's of science was in neurobiology, physiology, and behavior.
2:40
SPEAKER_01: So this is a very interesting uh subject for me.
2:44
SPEAKER_01: And I tend to look for studies that talk about behavior and find the patterns and the nuances in our population.
2:52
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so recently I read a study from um it was from a Yale University psychologist named Stanley Milgram.
3:02
SPEAKER_01: He carried out one of the most famous studies of obedience in all of psychology.
3:08
SPEAKER_01: Have you do you already know what it is?
3:10
SPEAKER_01: Have you heard of it?
3:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I've read about this uh before numerous places.
3:15
SPEAKER_00: So no, that this is good, this is good territory.
3:17
SPEAKER_00: And it's still every every time I I hear about it or read about it in a different context, it still is um uh it's shocking.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: That will make sense to everybody who hasn't heard of it in just a moment.
3:32
SPEAKER_00: Okay, just a minute.
3:33
SPEAKER_00: That's right, that's right.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so Milgram, he studied the conflict between obedience to authority and personal conscience.
3:41
SPEAKER_01: He wanted to see how far someone would go in obeying an instruction, even if it involved harming another person, right?
3:49
SPEAKER_01: So specifically, he was trying to figure out why the people go along with genocide during World War II?
3:56
SPEAKER_01: Because their defense was based on obedience.
3:58
SPEAKER_01: So he sought out to answer the question were they really just following orders from their superiors?
4:05
SPEAKER_01: So in um 1961, he did an experiment.
4:09
SPEAKER_01: It was 40 males between the ages of 20 and 50, all different range of professions.
4:15
SPEAKER_01: Uh, the participants were paired with another person.
4:18
SPEAKER_01: So they were actually introduced to that other person.
4:21
SPEAKER_01: And then they drew lots to find out who would be a quote learner and who would be a teacher.
4:27
SPEAKER_01: But what the participants didn't know is that the draw was actually fixed.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: So the participant was always the teacher, and the learner was an actor, just pretending to be a participant.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
4:40
SPEAKER_01: There was also a quote, experimenter that would be in the room with the learner.
4:45
SPEAKER_01: And the experimenter posed as a scientist, you know, dressed in a lab coat, but the experimenter was also an actor.
4:53
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
4:54
SPEAKER_01: They put the they used two rooms.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: One room was where the learner, the actor, was placed, and that person was in an electric chair, and electrodes were actually strapped to his arm.
5:06
SPEAKER_01: There was another room right next to it that was for the teacher and the experimenter.
5:11
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: Now remember, the teacher is the one that is the actual participant.
5:15
SPEAKER_01: So the teacher and the experimenter were in this room, and it was set up with an electric shock generator, and there were switches in front of the teacher, and they would increase in voltage, right?
5:29
SPEAKER_01: So the learner, the actor, was supposed to learn a list of word pairs.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: And then the teacher, who was the real participant, would test the learner.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: He would test them by naming one of the words, and the actor had to recall the pair.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: If the actor made a mistake, the teacher, who was the actual participant, was told to administer an electric shock.
5:56
SPEAKER_01: And each time that actor made a mistake, the level of the shock was supposed to increase.
6:01
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
6:02
SPEAKER_01: So there were 30 switches.
6:05
SPEAKER_00: Just so we really understand this, Cena, because it really it really is a fascinating study.
6:10
SPEAKER_00: So the the the actor who is answering the questions is not actually being shocked, but he's acting like he's being shocked.
6:19
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
6:20
SPEAKER_00: He's acting like he's being shocked.
6:31
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, yeah, no, no, no.
6:33
SPEAKER_01: No.
6:33
SPEAKER_01: So okay, so no, so there are 30 switches and they they ranged from 15 volts, which is like a slight shock, all the way to 450 volts.
6:42
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's that's a severe shock, and like at sustained levels, it can cause death.
6:47
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
6:48
SPEAKER_01: So the the one who was the teacher had all these switches in front of them, and the teacher who was the real participant thought it was real.
6:57
SPEAKER_01: So the teacher actually thought if they pushed on the button, they were shocking the actor.
7:02
SPEAKER_01: The actor knew it wasn't real.
7:04
SPEAKER_01: All right.
7:05
SPEAKER_01: The actor played along.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: And so during the experiment, the actor was instructed to give mainly wrong answers on purpose.
7:13
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
7:14
SPEAKER_01: And so each time they gave a wrong answer, the teacher was instructed by the um, you know, the scientist who was in the room, the experimenter, the one wearing the lab coat, they were instructed to give the shock.
7:26
SPEAKER_01: And if the teacher refused to administer, administer the shock, the experimenter gave a series of different prods or different orders in order to try to get them to continue with giving the shocks.
7:36
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
7:37
SPEAKER_01: So the results, about 65% of all the participants, all the quote unquote teachers, they continued to give the shocks all the way to the highest level of 450 volts, right?
7:53
SPEAKER_01: Even though they knew that was the dangerous shock that can result in death.
7:57
SPEAKER_01: So almost two-thirds of all of the actual participants shocked the other human all the way to the highest level.
8:06
SPEAKER_01: And then every single participant continued up to the 300 volt level, which is still a pretty severe shock.
8:15
SPEAKER_01: So this was this was actually pretty shocking to be nerdy.
8:21
SPEAKER_01: This was actually shocking to a lot of researchers and scientists at the time.
8:26
SPEAKER_01: And certain conclusions were drawn from the experiment.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: The first was that ordinary people are likely to follow orders given by an authority figure, even to the extent of killing an innocent human.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: So, in other words, we will conform.
8:43
SPEAKER_01: And Milgram thought that this was because our conforming would allow society to function in an organized fashion.
8:52
SPEAKER_01: The other conclusion was that the obedience to authority is actually ingrained in all of us from the way we were brought up, that it's it's learned from a variety of situations from, for example, family, school, or the workplace.
9:07
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
9:08
SPEAKER_01: And now his study has actually been repeated many, many times.
9:12
SPEAKER_01: And I and I'll be the first to say, you know, I find flaws in studies.
9:16
SPEAKER_01: There were flaws in his study.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: There, I mean, undoubtedly every study has flaws, and Milgram's study had flaws.
9:23
SPEAKER_01: But so he repeated 18 different variations of it.
9:27
SPEAKER_01: In total, 636 participants.
9:30
SPEAKER_01: All the results were similar.
9:32
SPEAKER_01: His findings have also been replicated by a variety of researchers from a variety of different cultures.
9:39
SPEAKER_01: And almost every single one of them came to the same conclusion as Milgram's original study, that it was the majority of people that would shock the other person all the way to the extreme.
9:50
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
9:51
SPEAKER_01: Um Milgram tried to explain this behavior.
9:56
SPEAKER_01: And so he came up with what's called the Milgram's agency theory.
10:01
SPEAKER_01: So he said that people have two states of behavior when they're in social situations.
10:06
SPEAKER_01: The first is the autonomous state.
10:08
SPEAKER_01: The people direct their own actions and they will take responsibility for the results of their own actions, right?
10:15
SPEAKER_01: The second state is um called an agentic state.
10:21
SPEAKER_01: This is when people allow others to direct their actions, and then they pass off the responsibility for the consequences to the person giving the order.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: So, in other words, the person might say, Oh, well, he told me to do it.
10:38
SPEAKER_01: Right?
10:38
SPEAKER_01: That that would be the rationale, the actual thinking of them.
10:41
SPEAKER_01: So they are actually agents for another person's will.
10:46
SPEAKER_01: They're acting as agents for another person's will.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: In order to get to that agentic state, Milgram said you had to have two conditions met.
10:55
SPEAKER_01: The first is the person giving the order has to be perceived as qualified.
11:02
SPEAKER_01: They have like some kind of expert.
11:04
SPEAKER_01: They're seen as legitimate.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: So, for instance, in his study, the experimenter that was in the room that was prodding the participant, they had that lab coat on, right?
11:18
SPEAKER_01: That lab coat made a difference because he carried out Milgram carried out a variation of the study in which that experimenter, the one wearing the lab coat, he was actually called away at the start of the procedure.
11:32
SPEAKER_01: And then somebody took over his role in the experiment, and that person was another actor who was wearing regular clothes.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: When that happened, the obedience dropped.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: You know, it was like 65% going all the way to the 450 volts.
11:48
SPEAKER_01: The obedience dropped to 20%.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: So the perception of authority of a qualified expert played a huge role in obedience.
12:01
SPEAKER_01: And we've talked about this on the program before about how much your perception matters.
12:06
SPEAKER_01: The lab coats symbolize scientific authority, which caused them to increase obedience.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: We do this too, like with medical doctors, right?
12:15
SPEAKER_01: In their lab coats, and we acquiesce, right?
12:18
SPEAKER_01: We perceive them as legitimate authoritarian figures or as experts.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: So we outsource our power to them.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: It's the same thing that Milgram had found in his study.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: Okay, now the second condition that has to be met for a person to enter this agentic state is the person who is being ordered has to believe that the authority will accept responsibility for whatever the outcome happens to be.
12:43
SPEAKER_01: So in Milgram's study, if participants were reminded that they were responsible, that they were responsible for their own actions, almost none of the subjects obeyed.
12:56
SPEAKER_01: But when participants were refusing to go on, if the experimentist said that they would take responsibility, um most of them did.
13:11
SPEAKER_01: If the experimentist said no, we're responsible for it, right?
13:14
SPEAKER_01: And it goes back to the excuse.
13:16
SPEAKER_01: Oh, they told me to do it.
13:17
SPEAKER_01: I was just following orders.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
13:19
SPEAKER_01: So I read this study and it sparked this conversation between Donnie and I, where we started to explore different areas in our lives where we are either knowingly or unknowingly giving away our power, right, to some perceived expert or authoritarian figure.
13:38
SPEAKER_01: So, in other words, we asked ourselves, where in our lives are we being the teacher in this experiment?
13:46
SPEAKER_01: Where are we blindly consenting and choosing to outsource our power?
13:50
SPEAKER_01: And so we started to make a list.
13:51
SPEAKER_01: So I was hoping that you and I, Joel, can talk a little bit about where we have done this in the past or maybe are still doing this, right?
13:59
SPEAKER_01: And and this this is this is the first part of the New Year's Eve challenge.
14:04
SPEAKER_01: And then there'll be a second part.
14:05
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
14:06
SPEAKER_01: So um to touch on our list, one is, you know, scientists, right?
14:11
SPEAKER_01: Just like in Milgram's study, um, I was raised in the system where I outsourced my power to other scientists, right?
14:21
SPEAKER_01: I I elevate their studies even sometimes above what my intuition may tell me.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: Like I don't really do that anymore, but this is what I used to do.
14:30
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
14:30
SPEAKER_01: And I think that this is pervasive in our culture, where we will largely elevate the status of scientific studies above our own intuition.
14:38
SPEAKER_01: All right.
14:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, teachers.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: Uh, teachers are an easy one where people will give them responsibility for teaching their kids, right?
14:48
SPEAKER_01: They'll hand over that authority to them.
14:51
SPEAKER_01: Um, professors, professors in college.
14:54
SPEAKER_01: I used to have a very high opinion of professors in college until I went through the system and that one changed.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: But we just like the scientists in the lab coat, we do tend to elevate professors, you know, and that's one reason why we send our kids off to college to go be taught by these quote unquote experts, right?
15:13
SPEAKER_01: Right.
15:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then we have obviously the obvious one, obvious ones, the medical doctors, the dentists, nurses, registered dietitians, um, even things like on a more subtle level, like cell phones.
15:27
SPEAKER_01: Most of us use cell phones every day and we tend to keep them on during the day.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: And that implies that to at least some extent, we are trusting what the government and the telecommunications industry tell us about the safety of cell phones.
15:43
SPEAKER_01: Right.
15:43
SPEAKER_01: So instead of us maybe looking into it for ourselves and really deciding do we think it's safe, I bet most of us have not actually done a deep dive into that research.
15:54
SPEAKER_01: We're just trusting those quote unquote authoritarian organizations and figures when they tell us it's safe, you know.
16:03
SPEAKER_01: Um, another example is homeowners association.
16:06
SPEAKER_01: You're allowing someone else to tell you what you can and cannot do with your land, right?
16:11
SPEAKER_01: So that's not food labels.
16:15
SPEAKER_01: Food labels are a big one, right?
16:17
SPEAKER_01: We tend to trust the labels.
16:19
SPEAKER_01: And um and this is my last example, and I'm gonna throw it over to you for your examples.
16:24
SPEAKER_01: This was a huge area for me for outsourcing my power, right?
16:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, because I, as you know, and our listeners know my story of um severe sickness to the point of almost dying.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: And part of that was because I trusted the labels.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, I and and and I started to think about that in the terms of Milgram's experiment.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: And I was thinking that, you know, when we hand over our agency, we are in essence handing over responsibility for our own actions, like Milgram said.
16:59
SPEAKER_01: That may be why we perceive ourselves when we're in that state, we perceive ourselves as victims or helpless, um, or shift the blame onto the companies.
17:10
SPEAKER_01: So you've seen this in the health field where it's like, oh, well, my genes are my destiny, right?
17:15
SPEAKER_01: So that's not actually my fault, right?
17:18
SPEAKER_01: That's actually that's just a way to shift the blame away from yourself.
17:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, and now I did this with our food supply.
17:26
SPEAKER_01: When I was blindly consenting to the food, when I blindly believed that everything in the grocery store was safe, um, and then I realized it wasn't, I got angry.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: But I was at first angry with the government and the food companies, right?
17:42
SPEAKER_01: I was blaming them.
17:44
SPEAKER_01: I put the responsibility on them for quote unquote making me sick.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: This is similar to what Milgram observed in his experiments.
17:52
SPEAKER_01: So when people obeyed, they viewed the person as an authoritarian figure or an expert, as more knowledgeable than themselves.
18:00
SPEAKER_01: And so they shifted the responsibility onto that person, right?
18:04
SPEAKER_01: He told me to do it.
18:05
SPEAKER_01: In my case, the wording wasn't, oh, he told me to do it.
18:08
SPEAKER_01: It was they told me it was safe.
18:11
SPEAKER_01: Right.
18:11
SPEAKER_01: So just like those participants perceived that experimenter as an expert and they outsource their power to him.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: I perceived the food industry and the government as an expert, and I outsource my power to them.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: In other words, I ate the food without questioning it.
18:27
SPEAKER_01: You know, so these are these are some examples to show how we do this.
18:31
SPEAKER_01: So Milgram figured this out, this pattern of what it would take for us to not follow our own conscience and to outsource the power and then why we would do that.
18:43
SPEAKER_01: And so I so our first part of the challenge for the New Year's resolution is let's bring awareness to areas in our lives where we are unknowingly giving away our power.
18:55
SPEAKER_01: In other words, where we're being the teacher in the situation, and make a list of those, either in your mind or on a piece of paper, make a list of all of those areas.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: Now that's it.
19:09
SPEAKER_01: That's the whole New Year's resolution for part A, if you want to accept it.
19:14
SPEAKER_01: It's very simple and doable.
19:17
SPEAKER_01: Because when you have that list, you've actually already started to reclaim your power, right?
19:24
SPEAKER_01: Because awareness is the first step in taking any sort of action if you want to take it.
19:29
SPEAKER_01: Once you are aware, then you can decide if you're ready to make any changes to any of those behaviors in your life.
19:37
SPEAKER_01: But one of the main reasons, you know, I started out this podcast by saying like not only 9% of New Year's resolutions actually manifest into reality.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: One of the main reasons why, according to studies, um, one of the main reasons why New Year's resolutions don't work is because the person's not ready to change or they don't feel the need to change.
19:58
SPEAKER_01: So, with this Beyond Labels New Year's resolutions challenge, don't pressure yourself to change.
20:05
SPEAKER_01: Just bring awareness into your life.
20:07
SPEAKER_01: And that's a huge, huge step.
20:10
SPEAKER_01: So making this list mentally or on paper, give yourself a pat on the back because you've already achieved a huge step forward in eventually making a change if you want to.
20:21
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so that's part one.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: So, Joel, I want to know what is your list of in your life things that you have like handed your power over to, maybe in the past, or maybe that you still are.
20:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so um, yeah, I it's hard to compete with uh with what you've done there, but let me let uh I I I kind of made two I kind of made two lists, Scene, as as I was preparing for this.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: I made a list of what I thought I had done well you know, empowered myself, and I made a list of things that I that are challenging that are hard to empower myself.
21:00
SPEAKER_00: I love that and so so um here here are some things here are some things that I think I've done well that have uh empowered me, and people who know me know that I'm still I'm still on the um on the little flip phone.
21:18
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
21:18
SPEAKER_00: So I don't I don't have a smartphone, you know.
21:21
SPEAKER_00: So I I you know I hear about you know, those things actually listen to you while you're you know when they're off and all this stuff, the tracking and all this stuff that's going on.
21:30
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm just being uh I I've I've never opened an app.
21:37
SPEAKER_00: I don't have any apps.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: Um and and I don't think apps are evil, but when we talk about um when we talk about giving over to somebody else that uh that power to speak into us and and take our time and take our whatever our our our thoughts.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, uh another one, I have never played a video game, not a single one.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: I've never played a single video game, not even Pac-Man, not brick or brack or whatever.
22:13
SPEAKER_00: Um I've never played a single video game.
22:15
SPEAKER_00: And and and again, I don't think all video games are are are evil or wrong.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, but if I've got time to do a video game, I'd rather read an edifying book or something, you know.
22:26
SPEAKER_00: Um, I just that that's me.
22:27
SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm old school, you know, I'm not I'm not into that electronic.
22:31
SPEAKER_00: And and I I just see um in fact, uh one of our one of our checkouts uh here this week, she um she has a flip phone, she also has a smartphone, and she makes a point of of um of leaving the smartphone like in her house.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: In other words, going away without it, uh just as a way to kind of you know wean away from that whole uh from that just having to look at it all the time, you know, and and and what's going on.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: Um another one, another one uh is social media.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: I have no, I have no Instagram, no, no social media.
23:14
SPEAKER_00: Uh all of my social media is through Polyface, the business, which brings me to another good one, I think, is is having a business.
23:22
SPEAKER_00: I think um, you know, my mentor Alan Nation said every single person should have a business in order to enjoy your life with pre-tax dollars.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: You know, the business the business can own your car, it can own, it can take you out to dinner, it can entertain friends, it can buy your clothes, it can take you to seminars and conventions and whatever.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: The the point is a business can bleed off your income to where you don't have to pay any taxes.
23:49
SPEAKER_00: And if there's one thing I want to defund and disempower, it's the it's the federal government.
23:55
SPEAKER_00: And so a lot of people don't realize that most of our lives, Teresa and I have lived below the poverty level.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: We live very well, but it's because the business picks up all the expenses, and you don't need very much to to live on something else, um, you know, on actual, actual um uh taxable, you know, taxable income.
24:14
SPEAKER_00: Um years a years and years ago, we built up enough savings that neither one of us has any life insurance.
24:22
SPEAKER_00: Um we we, you know, once the kids were gone, we didn't have debts, we didn't have that sort of thing.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: And so I canceled all the life insurance.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: We have no life insurance, we've got plenty of money to, you know, uh, we're not gonna have an expensive funeral anyway.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: Uh, we've got a spot up here on the hill, you know, where we're gonna uh where our of course I'm telling you, throw me in a compost pile.
24:43
SPEAKER_00: That's really cheap.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, but but you know, this whole um, you know, get your get yourself in a place where you don't need life insurance because you have enough savings or enough wherewithal to to bury yourself and and and get you uh up and running.
24:58
SPEAKER_00: Um Obamacare eliminated our medical insurance.
25:02
SPEAKER_00: So we don't have medical insurance, but we do have we do have Samaritan's Ministry, the medical sharing, the medical sharing thing.
25:08
SPEAKER_00: And you know, there's four or five of these uh companies that are doing this now, and um and and we love it.
25:16
SPEAKER_00: So those are some of the things that I think I've done, I've done well.
25:20
SPEAKER_00: And if I may say, Cena, I think I think a lot of times where where I hear where where I hear people um what they're saying is I can't.
25:33
SPEAKER_00: Uh there they they feel number one, uh they've given over their empowerment to a job.
25:41
SPEAKER_00: And I know for us, for us, when I left outside employment, came back to the farm full time, leaving that paycheck was well, a lot of people would say it was irresponsible, you know, that it was it was whatever.
25:58
SPEAKER_00: But uh, but but I realized and I realized that as long as I depended on that paycheck from that job, I would be shackled to somebody else's power over my schedule, my time, my my goals.
26:19
SPEAKER_00: And I realized, you know what, if we don't make it on the farm, and there was a lot of reason to think we wouldn't, we weren't going to, but but said if we don't, I'm willing to to wash dishes in a restaurant, you know, if I need to, to put food on the table, uh, you know, until we can get our our the fact is if you if you give 120 and you're loyal and you're responsible and you show up on time the particular job you're in today has no control over you because you you you could work for anybody, work for yourself or you're work for anybody.
27:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, another one is time.
27:02
SPEAKER_00: You know, people say, Well, I can't cook because I don't have time.
27:05
SPEAKER_00: Um and and uh and that that speaks to this whole, you know, um daring greatly.
27:14
SPEAKER_00: Brene Brene Brown, you know, has written this book, Daring Greatly, on on uh about enough that we live, we live in a time of scarcity.
27:21
SPEAKER_00: You know, we wake up in the morning, I didn't get enough sleep.
27:23
SPEAKER_00: Uh we go to bed at night, I didn't get enough done today.
27:26
SPEAKER_00: Uh, we we don't have enough, you know, we're not beautiful enough, we're not handsome enough, we're not thin enough, we're not strong enough, we're not, you know, and and and she has this you know this whole list of and we're just we're just bathed in this uh in this scarcity, uh not enough mentality.
27:43
SPEAKER_00: And and time speaks to that, and knowledge speaks to that.
27:47
SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't know enough, I don't know enough to cook, I don't know enough to buy my own food, I don't know enough to to to outsource to get my own farmer.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: And and so so um if you can be aware that this that this scarcity mentality um shackles you to other people's agendas because you're now dependent on the supermarket, you're dependent on that job, you're dependent on on your uh uh on your schedule.
28:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, I remember one of my most um uh cherished childhood memories was my dad was an accountant.
28:22
SPEAKER_00: My dad was a uh an accountant, he was a money, uh uh, you know, a figures guy, um numbers guy.
28:29
SPEAKER_00: And uh one day he he he said, he announced the table, he says, Where's all my time going?
28:34
SPEAKER_00: I don't have enough time.
28:35
SPEAKER_00: I gotta find out where my time is going.
28:37
SPEAKER_00: So you know, this is way before computers, you know, back in the 1960s.
28:40
SPEAKER_00: So he takes he takes a spreadsheet, makes a week, a week, and and and divides the whole day into five-minute increments and kept uh and kept a log of what he did every five minutes of the day for a week.
28:53
SPEAKER_00: And I remember it like yesterday.
28:54
SPEAKER_00: He came to the table on Sunday, says, I found where my time's going.
29:00
SPEAKER_00: He he was spending seven hours a week reading the newspaper.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's almost a whole day, seven hours a week.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: So he so his resolution was I'm gonna quit reading the newspaper.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: Now it didn't last, and he he was one of the 91 that it didn't it didn't last, but but but but Cena, you're and I's point here is finding those spots in our lives where we either knowingly or unknowingly have let ourselves our lives be co-opted by something else.
29:36
SPEAKER_00: And and and that's that's what keeps us from you know from making the the headway in the progress.
29:42
SPEAKER_00: So here here here's some of the things that I'm I'm scared to do, okay, or that I'm I'm whatever.
29:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm I I'm not I don't feel empowered to do.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: So one when I know a lot of people that are like uh tax objectors, you know, that that the sovereign individual, there's a whole movement now about you know your your personal sovereignty, and you don't have to get a license for anything, you don't have to file taxes, it's unconstitutional anyway.
30:07
SPEAKER_00: And and I'm I I I I just I'm just not there.
30:11
SPEAKER_00: I just you know, I uh there there's a lot of battles to fight.
30:15
SPEAKER_00: You can't fight everyone.
30:17
SPEAKER_00: And so I still file my tax.
30:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, my heart, my heart, and even my head sometimes is with these people, but I I I just I just I don't know, I just can't, or I'm being disempowered.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: I just it's not one that I'm willing to fight.
30:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, another one is credit card.
30:37
SPEAKER_00: You know, people, how can you use a credit card when you're you know uh it's it's no good and it gives money to the you know, chase Manhattan and they send it out to Kenya, you know, whatever.
30:48
SPEAKER_00: Okay, all this stuff.
30:49
SPEAKER_00: And and you know, I get I get frequent flyer miles, I get I get a lot of perks, you know, using and it's easy, I don't have to carry cash.
31:01
SPEAKER_00: Um and and we we still write checks.
31:05
SPEAKER_00: We we we don't as a business, we still actually hand write checks, uh, tons and tons and tons of them.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: Uh so we haven't gone to automatic bill pay because you know, I don't trust the banks, but I still have money in the banks, you know.
31:21
SPEAKER_00: So that that's a that's a bit of you know uh uh um uh a disempowerment as well.
31:27
SPEAKER_00: And um, and I I guess I guess my last one right now, this is very, you know, this is very specific for us, is um uh you know Sally Fallon tells me that Virginia just passed that you can that you can sell raw milk as pet milk in Virginia.
31:43
SPEAKER_00: That's a new a new thing we've done.
31:45
SPEAKER_00: And and um and so I have to I have to think, do I do I want to push that envelope?
31:53
SPEAKER_00: You know, uh our farm, our farm is, you know, there are a lot of people that would like to see us come down.
31:59
SPEAKER_00: Uh we I mean we have a lot of friends, but we also have a lot of enemies in the, you know, in the system.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: And I have to be really, really judicious uh about what what hills I'm willing to die on.
32:12
SPEAKER_00: And um, and so for now, I'm not ready to jump into the to pushing the envelope on the pet milk thing and and and even the you know the home butchery and and circumvent the system.
32:23
SPEAKER_00: I researched PMAs, you know, um private membership associations.
32:27
SPEAKER_00: Um there's there's good and bad stuff there, but um you know, um I think it's important to recognize in each of these areas I don't want to be dependent, but you can't you can't jump off the cliff that you'd like to jump off in every area of your life at the same time.
32:57
SPEAKER_00: And and and and it's good to jump off the cliff on one thing, you know, maybe that would be a good resolution is what is one jump one cliff you'd like to jump off now, or that you could, and maybe it's maybe it's hand in your two-week notice and and and start your own business.
33:12
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's you know, um, maybe it's it's um um you know canceling your Netflix subscription, you know, so you have time to you know research uh a home a home uh homeopathy and uh pharmaceutical kit like we've talked about on this podcast.
33:32
SPEAKER_00: All right.
33:32
SPEAKER_00: Um the the point is, what are you what are you what are you bound up in?
33:36
SPEAKER_00: What are you enslaved?
33:39
SPEAKER_00: What makes you feel um constrained from doing what down in your heart you know you ought to do?
33:49
SPEAKER_00: Write it down and let let that be, you know, let that be let that be a freeing thing for you.
33:57
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: I love your lists, like I love how honest and just open hearted it is, you know, as I it was brought tears to my eyes because it's so beautiful.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: Uh like you really took the time and you know, I so for all the listeners, I just emailed Joel and I was like, hey, I have this idea and blah, blah, blah.
34:15
SPEAKER_01: And then here he comes with these huge lists and you know, just really heartfelt.
34:20
SPEAKER_01: So, oh, it's so touching.
34:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, yes, I agree with you completely.
34:25
SPEAKER_01: There's when Donnie and I were talking about it, um, we did the same thing.
34:29
SPEAKER_01: We went through, and I think it is important, like you laid out here, to praise yourself for all of for your list of things that you have already accomplished, right?
34:40
SPEAKER_01: That support, that pat on the back, and then write your list of, oh, okay, so now let me expand my mind and just think what are all the other ways in which I'm still outsourcing my power, and even the subtle ways.
34:53
SPEAKER_01: I love the example that you gave about time, because that's a big one for me.
34:57
SPEAKER_01: So when we talk about outsourcing our power, we'll often immediately think of things like the government or, you know, the police or the food industry, right?
35:06
SPEAKER_01: But it's the subtle ones that I think you can have big wins on that can make a huge difference in your life.
35:13
SPEAKER_01: And so one of mine is the scarcity of time, you know, where I just feel like sometimes in the day there's so many things to do.
35:21
SPEAKER_01: And at the end of the day, uh sometimes I'm almost in tears because I feel like, oh, I haven't even been able to spend a moment, like in the moment with my children because I've been so busy doing X, Y, and Z and just checking off the box.
35:33
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm gonna check off the homeschool boxes.
35:35
SPEAKER_01: Now I'm gonna check off my work boxes and then make the food and then you know, and then walk the dogs, and but not really slowing down and being in the moment.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: So that's actually what I picked on my list.
35:46
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay, you know, it was like, and again, this is going beyond the resolution is to make it doable, the resolution is just bringing the awareness, right?
35:56
SPEAKER_01: Right.
35:57
SPEAKER_01: And like I said, um, you can you will have a higher chance of succeeding if you take the next step when you're ready.
36:04
SPEAKER_01: So I am ready to take that next step and actually carve out and have intentional moments throughout the more intentional moments throughout the day with my kids and my husband.
36:16
SPEAKER_01: So that's actually what I'm bringing into my new year.
36:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I wanted to share, okay, the part B.
36:21
SPEAKER_01: I know we're running close on time, but um, the part B, this one I think is a little more challenging.
36:28
SPEAKER_01: So if you want to take another step, okay, this is the this is the second part of the Beyond Labels New Year's Eve challenge.
36:36
SPEAKER_01: So, so in the first one, most of us can probably pinpoint situations where we have outsourced our power, right?
36:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, in other words, situations where you've played the teacher role in Milgram's experiment.
36:48
SPEAKER_01: But the challenge is are there times when you have played the role of the experimenter, the person in the lab coat prodding the other person, right?
37:00
SPEAKER_01: Prodding the other person to do your bidding, to do your will.
37:03
SPEAKER_01: So, in other words, another way of say that uh is are there times when you gave advice or you gave your opinion?
37:09
SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't actually yours.
37:12
SPEAKER_01: It was just facts or you know, words that you had regurgitated from another authoritarian figure.
37:19
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
37:20
SPEAKER_01: One example of how I've done this is in grad school, I was trained to believe the professors, I was trained to believe the people who wrote the textbooks, I was trained to believe the government who created the dietary guidelines.
37:34
SPEAKER_01: And I was a dutiful student, right?
37:36
SPEAKER_01: AC my courses, regurgitating that information.
37:40
SPEAKER_01: Consequently, when I initially graduated with my doctoral degree in nutrition, if someone asked me for advice, I would largely share that things like um you should eat vegetable oils instead of animal fats, right?
37:56
SPEAKER_01: Because that's what was that's what I was taught, and I had bought into it.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I even wrote an article that was published online about you should replace red meat with olive oil, you know, like the fat in the red meat with olive oil and stuff, right?
38:09
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that that's how like that the apple didn't far fall fall far from that academic tree, right?
38:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I and and and for a period of time, I bought into the dietary guidelines.
38:20
SPEAKER_01: Like it, like most Americans, it was a subconscious buying into it.
38:24
SPEAKER_01: That's just the way I ate, right?
38:26
SPEAKER_01: So I was influencing people by regurgitating what somebody else had told me was true, instead of actually looking into it for myself and deciding what I believe.
38:38
SPEAKER_01: And so I think that if we really take an honest look, most of us have probably done this.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: Maybe we've read something, we've heard something, um, we've seen a post on social media and we just share it, right?
38:49
SPEAKER_01: Without researching it for ourselves and deciding what we actually believe.
38:54
SPEAKER_01: And so when you do something like that, to a certain degree, you are actually taking on the role of that experimenter in Milgram's experiment.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: You are the actor doing the bidding or the will of somebody else, right?
39:09
SPEAKER_01: So the second part of the New Year's resolution challenge, if you choose to accept it, is let's bring awareness to areas in our own lives in which we may be overpowering someone else, right?
39:22
SPEAKER_01: Doing this largely by just regurgitating knowledge that came from some other expert, some other institution, and really didn't come from our own true selves, right?
39:32
SPEAKER_01: So again, we can make a list of all the ways in which we are acting as the experimenter.
39:38
SPEAKER_01: And again, awareness is key.
39:40
SPEAKER_01: So you don't even have to act on it.
39:42
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to do anything about it.
39:44
SPEAKER_01: Once you've made that list, you've succeeded, right?
39:46
SPEAKER_01: You you you can have like a hundred percent success rate on this New Year's resolution by just having a mental list.
39:52
SPEAKER_01: Then you can choose if you want to change any of the behaviors.
39:56
SPEAKER_01: It may not be the right time to do so, and that's okay.
39:58
SPEAKER_01: Do it in your own time.
40:00
SPEAKER_01: The first step is the awareness, and that's a huge win.
40:03
SPEAKER_01: And um, I want to end with you, Joel, on that part, but I want to add in a little silver lining of how this relates to Milgram's studies, um, and to give you a kind of a little boost of hope.
40:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, in Milgram's studies, he found that feeling supported matters.
40:21
SPEAKER_01: Having a tribe matters.
40:24
SPEAKER_01: So in one of the variations of his study, there were actually um other participants who were in the room with the teacher.
40:33
SPEAKER_01: Those participants were actors as well, and they were acting as teachers, okay, alongside the participant who was also acting as the teacher.
40:43
SPEAKER_01: So these were these these were all people in the room pushing the shock buttons when the learner got the the answers wrong.
40:52
SPEAKER_01: So if the learner got the answer wrong again, remember they were supposed to shock him.
40:58
SPEAKER_01: Those two actors who were pretending to be the teachers, they actually refused to obey.
41:06
SPEAKER_01: They would not deliver the shock to the other actor.
41:11
SPEAKER_01: The first actor stopped at 150 volts, and the second stopped at 210 volts.
41:16
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so what happened?
41:18
SPEAKER_01: They modeled defiance, and their disobedience actually provided the social proof that it was acceptable to disobey.
41:27
SPEAKER_01: It lowered the obedience level from 65% without having social support to only 10% with social support.
41:37
SPEAKER_01: So that means only 10% of the time somebody kept pushing the shock button.
41:41
SPEAKER_01: Once they felt supported, they also rebelled, right?
41:45
SPEAKER_01: So it demonstrates that social support helps us stop outsourcing our power.
41:52
SPEAKER_01: And Milgram's actual solution to the problems of obedience trumping your moral conscience was actually strength in numbers.
42:01
SPEAKER_01: He said that the people that have moral conscience would find the strength in numbers to resist misguided authority.
42:08
SPEAKER_01: And that actually is providing hope for creating a better world, right?
42:13
SPEAKER_01: That that's one of the big reasons why we created the Beyond Labels podcast, so that everybody, including you and me, would know they have a place to come where they belonged and they felt supported and they felt encouraged.
42:26
SPEAKER_01: They felt like they had a family.
42:27
SPEAKER_01: They had, oh, I'm getting all teary.
42:29
SPEAKER_01: Like they had a tribe that would back them and stand by them no matter what.
42:34
SPEAKER_01: Interestingly, feeling supported is also a requirement for achieving a New Year's resolution.
42:40
SPEAKER_01: Right.
42:41
SPEAKER_01: The studies have shown that one of the big reasons why we we fail at resolutions is because we don't feel like we have um accountability and support in that fellowship in that tribe.
42:52
SPEAKER_01: So my offer is to extend to our audience.
42:55
SPEAKER_01: If you decide to accept the Beyond Labels resolution challenge, let us know your progress.
43:01
SPEAKER_01: Check in with us, send us an email, you know, let us know what's happening because we'd love to hear from you.
43:07
SPEAKER_01: Um and together we can we can support each other, we can hold each other accountable, we can encourage each other.
43:13
SPEAKER_01: So, Joel, we're almost out of time, but I want to know from you, well, your thoughts on all that.
43:20
SPEAKER_01: And have there been times when you have played the role of the experimenter, to your knowledge?
43:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
43:26
SPEAKER_00: Uh, one that comes to mind is uh years ago, uh one of the one of the hot uh topics in you know in the the whatever ecological farming movement, especially uh cattle, was to line breed.
43:42
SPEAKER_00: And so I read the guru, the gurus of line breeding, and we said, we're gonna line breed.
43:47
SPEAKER_00: And I promoted line breeding all over the place in my presentations and talks and things.
43:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is the way to go.
43:54
SPEAKER_00: We did it for about 12 years and failed miserably.
43:59
SPEAKER_00: It it it we we realized we did not like to spend five hours a night looking over pedigree schedules we like raising cattle we like moving cattle we like you know uh all of that but we we are not meticulous um you know you i you i can't take you in the field and say well that cow there you know her sire was this and grand damn was this and the three generations but you know that that that doesn't float my boat and we realized we were not we were not good at so now now we are we are buying all our bulls we're not keeping our so during that time we were selecting our bulls and our herd was mongrelizing it was it was going downhill genetically now we're buying bulls from people who love to read pedigree charts and can tell you the great great great grand damn of every calf in their in their pasture and our and and and our qual our genetic quality is through the roof by far the best we've ever had I mean I mean even neighbors are talking about how pretty our are even neighbors that don't agree with what we do that think we're nuts um are are saying things like you know uh beautiful cattle and that sort of thing and and so um so you know I I I was guilty of buying into what I and and I'm not opposed to line breeding don't don't anybody think that I'm I'm now opposed to line breeding it just it it was not our it was not something we we could do because we didn't enjoy the kind of homework that was necessary to make it happen and and so so sometimes even a even a good thing that a guru tells you to do um you know some of you for example uh when when we've talked about making your own you know uh herbal pharmacy kit or homeopathy you know for many of us it's better just to buy them from a good source because we don't like to make concoctions and that's okay that's okay and just realize because some guru like dr sina says oh you can do this and you can make a tincture and an infusion of this you know um and you know that that that you're gonna you you're gonna you're gonna be all you're you're gonna be all this well you know let me tell you you're not a Sina and I'm not a Sina and and and some people will be but a lot of people won't and so you know don't um you know don't beat up yourself for uh for um uh um letting let for finding and patronizing somebody that's doing well what's simply not in your in the ball game that you like to play that's okay too that's an excellent point yeah and and and on that on that yeah on that point um I can't help but just say it here as we close here um that next summer the Stopman Grass farmer uh magazine uh we're doing a uh every other year um gathering here at Polyface and one of our speakers um is going to be Ty Lopez who is the kind of the guru entrepreneurial millennial um dude and I'm having him speak you're gonna love this title the anatomy of a maverick because all of us all of us grass farmers that have our animals out on pasture and we believe even chickens should you know eat a lot of grass and they will and they do um we're all against the grain we're all rebels we're all defying the feedlot grain Tyson I mean the the whole juggernaut of the entire USDA is completely against us and so I'm having him come and and explain the anatomy of a maverick what what are the principles what are the take home things that can encourage us um as as mavericks because we want we want to be mavericks we want to be beyond labels we want to be the mavericks in the system and uh so anyway a little shameless plug there for the stop and grass thing but this is why I'm having him come because I realize how important how important this the this maverick mentality is um and so yeah uh it's a it's a good thing.
48:38
SPEAKER_01: That sounds like a must see like even I'm intrigued by that one.
48:42
SPEAKER_01: I I cannot wait uh to hear that one um and I'm glad you brought that up because the list so um and I'll just say this one last tidbit and then I'll leave it to you to wrap up on this New Year's um episode but the point of creating these lists and bringing awareness isn't to shame anybody it's not to say oh you have to do every single thing on this list because you have to stop outsourcing your power a hundred percent of the time right that is not what it's about and like Joel said um there's some areas where Donnie and I recognize that we outsource our power but we have no interest in in doing it ourselves.
49:25
SPEAKER_01: So a quick example is you know we're building the house and the pipes have just gotten laid on the floor they're they're about to pour the concrete they had to have a government inspector come and inspect the pipes.
49:37
SPEAKER_01: So clearly we outsourced our power to that government inspector right we're not over there ourselves inspecting the pipes could we sure we could take the time and learn how to do that and go and inspect it for ourselves but we don't want to so we're okay with outsourcing our power in that instance to that inspector.
49:56
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
49:57
SPEAKER_01: So it's not to say oh you're you're a bad person because you have this whole long list of things that you're not doing you know like oh you're not homeschooling your child you're a bad person.
50:07
SPEAKER_01: That's not what it's about.
50:08
SPEAKER_01: It's really just an exercise in awareness so that we can start becoming aware of um the reality that we have created for ourselves.
50:17
SPEAKER_01: And then if you're happy with it that's great.
50:20
SPEAKER_01: You know there's nothing else to do.
50:22
SPEAKER_01: And if you're not if there's something on your list that resonates that's like oh I I really want to actually take that back like me with time, right?
50:30
SPEAKER_01: Then you have an opportunity to decide do I want to take the next step with that or is this the right time?
50:36
SPEAKER_01: Or maybe it's not maybe I'll do it six months down the road and that's okay.
50:40
SPEAKER_01: Right.
50:40
SPEAKER_01: So so it's it's meant to be kind of awareness a fun activity.
50:44
SPEAKER_01: So just have fun with it.
50:46
SPEAKER_01: Don't put pressure on yourself and just check in with us if you like send us a little note to tell us how you're doing that's great Cena.
50:54
SPEAKER_00: So the the the the bottom line here folks as we enter this new year and who knows what 2024 is going to be like you know we're gonna have a presidential election where it's gonna be you know we don't know what's gonna end up in Ukraine we don't know what's going to end up in in um you know in Israel uh there are a lot of things going on um but of course our wish for you is to have to to enjoy uh this this season and anticipate good things for 2024 don't be wrapped up in in in worry uh but do do realize that the ones who flourish over time are the ones who think intentionally about swimming upstream and most people most people unfortunately throughout history have simply gone along what's everybody else doing you know basic basically you know which way is the wind blowing and then follow along and I think if there's one thing that all of us who who are are in our Beyond Labels family realize is that the place of blessing and the place of of of um of personal progress and empowerment for you and for your loved ones is the place where you swim upstream and you find for yourself those new opportunities and responsibilities as you take charge of different areas of your life.
52:33
SPEAKER_00: So with that in mind we're signing off for 2023 wish you all the best for 2024 and looking forward to a lot more great podcasts in 2024.
52:46
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to Beyond Labels.
52:49
SPEAKER_01: Happy New Year