Latest / The R4R Podcast: Road to Zero / Ben Gathercole, Ben Alexander, and Matt Breen: Part 1

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Ben Gathercole, Ben Alexander, and Matt Breen: Part 1 · The R4R Podcast: Road to Zero

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At Lonsdale St Studio, we believe in the power of
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storytelling to connect people and create change.
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That's why we're proud to be the production partner for this
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Running for Resilience podcast. Today on the after our podcast,
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we've got none other than Ben Gathercole, CEO of Menslink.
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All around good bloke. I just thought I'd.
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Start and sorry Canberra's most feared triathlon coach Most once
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was. Yes, I once was.
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Once was. Most allegedly.
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It's allegedly. What ran hard sessions Never or
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just yelled? Yeah, never.
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None of them. There's a few triathletes I know
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begged a difference. That is, that they're still
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scarred. Yeah, you forced people to do
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breaststroke in the freestyle league.
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Yeah, something, yeah. We're not talking about that
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boy. It's still half for half it is
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and and men's link and men's link and on.
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On that note, I thought I'd sort of go back to when we were asked
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by you to talk at the big night out.
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And one of the things that I said was that, you know, the
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genesis of a Ferraris that I lost my dad when I was 18.
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And so I know what it's like to have a great role model.
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But I think I also know what it's like to have a void, you
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know, where that role model because my grandparents died
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before that. So it's like I have this still
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have this void of a male role model.
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So I feel like I can appreciate the value that Menzen provides.
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I can't agree any more than that.
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I mean what the, the mentorship that we provide to young fellas
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that don't have that male role model in their life is
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incredibly valuable. 2 year programme for us.
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The results that we see out of it, we just see young fellas
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just grow, grow, grow. People are just willing to walk
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the journey with them. There's nothing hard about,
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there's nothing magic. It's just being there and being
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part of somebody's life. What is the growth they like,
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you know, crazy like not obviously height.
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Yeah, well, it is height too, because it's.
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Physical development is, yeah. It's, it's all those things, you
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know, we, we take a before and after photo.
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We've got a sign at the front of of men's link to take anything
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is possible. We'll take a photo of the young
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fella. He's mentoring his mum, young
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fella mentor at the beginning and end.
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And so, yeah, you obviously see growth in stature, but you just
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see the, I guess, the confidence of the young fella start to come
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out just growing into his skin and feeling more confident just
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to be able to interact with everything that's going on in
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society. So more self belief and maybe
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like just interpersonal skills bit more belief in their ability
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to navigate society or life or for lack of a minute term.
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Yeah, exactly. And I think the way that I
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phrase it from my perspective is when I grew up, I was lucky
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enough to have a lot of sport involved, a lot of social
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groups, all these sorts of things that you with a genesis
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of how you grew up and how you gain confidence and the things
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that you learn. Unfortunately a lot of fellows
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don't have that nowadays. So it's very easy just to be
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very isolated, in particular a single parent household and in
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particular when people are working too long hours.
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Housing's not an easy thing nowadays.
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Work's not an easy thing nowadays.
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So I'm not saying that that wasn't the case in the past, but
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it's it's really difficult on people at the moment.
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So for us to provide that mentorship and that, yeah, just
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just walking the journey with a young person is really
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important. And a little bit separate from
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that person's life, I remember some of I guess role models that
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are looking back, had they were coaches in sport or they were
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friends of friends, dads. School teachers, Coaches, people
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in society. Team managers.
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Team managers. Triathlete coaches, They're
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triathlete. Coaches, all of the above.
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And it's funny that you mentioned that and everyone has
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a bit of a giggle about it. It's it's almost 2, three times
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a week that I'll continue to get a call from those people And
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just to talk through, what do you think, coach?
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You know, this is happening in my life or I'm really struggling
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with this or I have an injury. How do you know?
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And it's not, it's not me changing that.
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It's just me listening and that person just talking out their
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problem in a fairly trusted and neutral environment.
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And before I came down here today, I had a Frank Law what we
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just talked about it. So it's to me, mentorship is a
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really important part of the journey and it's something that
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I'm still involved with almost every day.
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Did you? I prefer you don't know.
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Ben used to be the Brumby's team manager.
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What is 2415? We went 15/16/17.
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Yeah, three seasons. I said Ben and I got to know
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each other. Did you get a lot of calls from
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the Triathletic coaches? The rugby players is do they
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call up asking for we a little bit more big headed or lost your
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phone number? No, no, you'd be surprised.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. The rugby, I mean, the fellas in
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rugby were fantastic. People in rugby were fantastic,
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as we all know, great staff, really good people, still
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connected to a lot of those people and we still talk quite
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regularly, whether it's just the, the, the day to
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So yeah, now I'm still connected.
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Where did you learn that skill is like, is it just creating a
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safe space for people to be vulnerable and just share what's
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on their mind? Had who taught you that what
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that both skill or the given ability?
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Or is it just a natural? Thing you've I've actually never
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been asked that. I guess I was lucky enough to
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grow up in those environments where those sort of processes
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were quite natural, obviously with my father and my mother
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being involved quite closely with my life.
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So to me just seemed relatively natural.
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I never had, like you would describe met.
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I never had a void like that. So I was always able to being
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have those mentors and learn from them and then I guess learn
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how to put back in, you know, I, I chose quite early in my career
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to to be a professional coach. And that's just part of the
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skill set for you. Learn as you go along.
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Yeah, you it because it leaves a mark, doesn't I think one of the
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reasons. More than what you realise,
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yeah, I I still discount it and but I, I do now, now in my
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current role and as I get a little bit older, you do realise
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the mark that you leave and you do you do realise the things
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that people share with you are quite life changing, but people
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need to share that a little bit with you.
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And important for them, I because whenever I have a big
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decision, even little decisions, sometimes I still think just
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almost reflexively, what what would my dad say about this?
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What would my mum say about this amongst, you know, other people
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are that I hold in high regard. I go, oh, what would they say in
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this position? And it does.
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It leaves when somebody naturally so like a parent is
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like leaves an imprint on you. They become part of who you are
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moving forward. It's like an affirmation.
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No, you're just confirming. You probably had the answer, but
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you sort of just want to roll through in your mind or have a
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have a chat to somebody that you trust and knows your history and
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what's sort of going on. Yeah, and just a different
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perspective too. And just to be able to zoom out.
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But I know. And something that stuck with me
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from that night, the big night out, I can't remember his name.
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I think it might have been another Matt as well, He spoke.
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We had a couple of mentors speak and Matt was one of those.
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And I think it was Matt who you could tell when he was speaking,
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how much he got out of it. The other side of the coin.
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So like we know that it leaves a lot of value for the young
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fellas that go through and all. Then it works.
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But the mentors? Yeah, absolutely.
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And that those mentors stay really tight and those mentors
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stay really tight with Mens link over a long period of time.
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We've got mentors that are still involved and donate back their
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time and might not be in the mentor programme, but we've got
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some fellows that actually come and just donate their time as
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volunteers to do other parts of our to help other parts of the
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organisation. So they they stay connected and
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they realise the the benefits and what connection actually
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brings to their lives and that's really important.
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Yeah, I mean, and one thing you said on that night, Benny, was
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that Men's Link was the gold standard in or a gold standard
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in this sector. And I think we both meant what
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we said because in order for a suicide free Canberra to exist,
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I think it's fair to say that Men's Link needs to be doing
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what it aims to do. Yeah, look, absolutely, I think,
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and I'd like to talk to you guys about this further, but
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educating young fellas, there's got to be one of the pathways,
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so one of the pathways into trying to achieve that goal.
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It's not the single pathway. You guys talk about suicide free
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by 2033, do we? Yeah, you know, Well done.
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Yeah. Suicide free by 2033, which is
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quite a simplistic view on it. And I know there's, there's been
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a little bit of negative or some criticism around that, but the
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beauty of that is it is so simple and it starts the
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conversation and doesn't matter what the conversation happens to
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be. I might be, look, Ben, I don't
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think we're going to make it by 2033, but the conversation then.
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So Ben would come back and go, well, what are we going to do
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about it? How are we going to change this?
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So it's actually the conversation starter.
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So it, the, the beauty of it is in, it's simplistic and it
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brings people on the journey. So we all know to get A to get a
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result, we need people on the journey and it's.
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Going to take all of Canberra. It's yeah, absolutely.
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And look, is it possible? I know you guys want me to say
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Yep, maybe. But the truth is, as I was
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saying, it's the, the message is the, it's the conversations that
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start and it's, yes, running on a Wednesday night or meeting a
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mate on a Friday morning, They're all components to how we
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might move to there. So men's link, providing
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education, mentoring, some counselling.
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It's just a small component of lots of things because we know
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that death by suicide is quite complex.
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It's just not usually one thing that causes that.
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There's a multiple things that go on.
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So as I said, the suicide free by 2033 is simplistic, but the
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beauty of it is the simplicity and you guys should be commended
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for that. And, and I don't mind when
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people have a criticism of that because it starts that
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conversation. It's like, well, what do we do
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then? You tell me how we go about it.
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And that that person not, we're not saying we have all the idea,
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all the collateral. It's not we don't have the
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answer, but we're trying something.
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So what's your idea? Well, we might want to do
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whatever their idea happens to me could be a great idea.
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So that's sort of how I think about that and what that's how I
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see where men's link fits in and there'll be some great ideas and
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there'll be some ideas that don't work out.
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I, I think, I think you're right.
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I think part of the beauty is it does start.
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The conversation starts, it starts to get it going and you
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start looking at it because my belief is that logically I
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haven't been proven wrong yet. So I'm waiting for someone to
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come out because like you said, even that if somebody comes out
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and gives you, you know, irrefutable proof that something
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isn't going to do it, I will. Thanks for saving me time.
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Let's focus on what we can do. That each person is.
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No one's destined for it. And so if you extrapolate it,
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you can hopefully get to 0 across the whole population.
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Absolutely. What does success for men's link
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look like? The simplistic notion that we
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help young men, it's pretty, pretty simple really.
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That's what we do. That's success for us.
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So we're moving into a phase now where we've matured quite a bit
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in the last few years and we're actually able to measure our
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impact of what our programmes are doing.
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And so we're getting so these impact statements coming back
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that we've measuring saying 4 out of five young fellows that
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we see in our programmes report more able to talk about their
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mental health and they feel better about their mental
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health. So if we're seeing 13 to 14,000
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young people per year in a school environment through our
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education programmes and we're getting that sort of result, we
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know we're having a big impact. But it's more than that.
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So success is also enabling those young guys to ask for help
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when needed. Success is providing the
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mechanism to come and see us for counselling and that counselling
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is free to young guys, which is incredibly big barrier for young
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people. Our success is about providing
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mentorship for young guys that don't have that male role model.
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If we're providing all those services then we're successful.
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Doesn't matter what the end number says.
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And we're very much moving to that phase now because I come
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from a numbers background in terms of sports.
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And like you win or lose, how many Mays did we gain and how
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fast did you go? What was your heart rate?
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You know, all these sorts of metrics, very number orientated.
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We won 2212, whatever it happens to be.
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The truth is the way I've matured in this role, we don't
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have to see more and more and more.
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We just want to be able to know the impact we're having on those
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young people that we're seeing is profound.
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And then they know how to continue to ask.
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And not only that, then they can look out.
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So it's like that multiply effect.
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So if Ben knows how to look after his mates a little bit
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more, knows some of the things to say and the way to act and
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when to reach out to to his mates, what's that multiplier?
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So we might have only seen, you know, 14,000 bends.
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But if those 14,000 bends are out in the community and they're
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doing our thing, wake up, then we're on.
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Can't be what you can't see. So if you demonstrate how to
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help yourself and help others. Yeah.
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Other people can follow. You have to demonstrate, but we
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have to teach. We have to educate too, and
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that's get. That demonstration and then.
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Yeah, exactly. And, and our, our, our staff, my
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boys, our, our ecosystem, our men's link cohort are, are
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fantastic at being that person. What like you still met numbers
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and I was a mistake we certainly made last year was getting
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caught up in how many people that were coming to runs and
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because we. And I was the same man.
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And that I don't think that is the the right, it's the obvious
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metric after I could say, oh, look at how many people that are
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coming to our runs and we do having a great impact, but most
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of those people are fine to be right.
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They're just coming for a run, but I'm curious to know, like
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what would you think were some good metrics for us?
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And what are some other ones that you, I know it's you got to
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look beyond metrics, but just as a rough guide for progress, what
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are some metrics that men's like look at and what some you think
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we could look at beyond just total number of people rocking
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up? To events so first let's just
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chat around the R for R situation.
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I think you know the great success of run clubs around
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everywhere. There's a few things behind that
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that maybe we can talk about, but it's actually not having to
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commit. It's just knowing that I can
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just come along on Wednesday night.
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I can call Maddie on Wednesday at 4:00, man.
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I'm going for a run. Do you want to come?
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Yeah, let's go for a run. Like it's this really low
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commitment and the low cost. And then the way that you guys
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do it with Run for R for R is it's inclusive.
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Doesn't. You don't have to be a good
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runner. You know, it's very much like
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the Saturday morning running. Park run.
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Park run. Yeah.
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Yeah. It's they they do time it, but
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it's not a competitive environments per SE.
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So I think you guys have hit a really good model there for
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inclusion and inclusion is the first step.
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If you can be have an organisation that's inclusive
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being a you're on. But what you, I think the way
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that I would think success is like, I think success for Mens
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link, it's, those are for our champions out in the community.
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So they go back out in their community and they might go to
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to work function. So look, anyone want to come
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Wednesday night with me? It's, it's a really good thing
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to do. I just need some support.
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I'm not travelling that well. And then inevitably you get 3
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more, Hey, I'll come along. I come every Wednesday night and
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I listen and I watch to what people are doing and it's a real
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community type environment and it's not commonly about what the
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run is, it's actually catching up work.
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So there's some exercise but it's also just that download in
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a really safe space. There's one thing I've learned
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in particular with males and young males, if you ask them a
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direct question, you're probably not going to get a very good
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answer. So one of the things we say
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mum's, it's commonly mum that brings a young fellow to
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counselling for the first or second time.
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And then in every mum, as I leave the building, mom goes,
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how was counselling? Tell me what they said, how did
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it go? I can guarantee you a young
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bloke clamps up. I'm.
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Not going to come here. But done same thing get in the
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car sitting side by side, start driving home.
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That went really well mom, I actually I found that really
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good. Can we make another appointment?
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Don't ask anymore, just move on there like and eventually once
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you get home for dinner in the next day or two, it'll come out.
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And it's very much like when you go running with somebody, you
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don't often say too much, but once you've sort of shared the
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journey for a couple of caves and you're back and yes, the the
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walls come down a little bit and you're inevitably sharing
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something. So the beauty of exercise,
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somebody by your side, sharing the journey is a really powerful
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thing for running, for resilience.
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So I think success for you guys will be measured around running
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for resilience champions. I don't know, you've guys have
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heard me speak about Men's Link champions.
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We just had the Men's Link business breakfast Tuesday
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morning. We had 500 people there.
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But for those 500 people to go back out in our community and
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talk about Men's Link, what a great event.
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This guy spoke at the Men's Link, spoke about this.
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This is what we talked about. You go to soccer practise
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tonight as a volunteer coach, you see another parent there,
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you talk to those other parents about what Men's Link does.
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Do you know that they offer some counselling in this, you know,
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all this sort of stuff. So it's the the growth that way
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from having a champion for your calls.
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How do you groom's not the word? Well, maybe it is the right
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word, but no, it's not. A good.
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Word not in this space. It might move a OK.
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But build or grow those men's link champions?
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How so? I'm everybody can just find
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them. Yeah, look, I think there's a
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number of ways and and I'm, I'm getting better and better at
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describing what a men's link champion is and asking for a
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men's link champion. So asking you guys, can you be a
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men's link champion? Oh, you know, I can do that,
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whereas previously I wouldn't have been.
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Confident enough to ask somebody to do that.
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We also need to be better as an organisation in describing what
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men's link is so you can be a men's link champion.
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Give them avenues. Exactly.
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So the at the business breakfast, we launched a 3 1/2
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minute video that we'd just done about what men's link the
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servicing that we actually provide such really clear.
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So people at that breakfast now, now what our education does,
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what our mentoring does and what our counselling does really
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clear. So it's very easy for you to
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walk around. Yeah, that's pretty cool.
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Those guys are going. All right, I'm happy to support
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that. And get behind it.
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Yeah. So how you do it, you ask?
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Well, firstly, you educate, so we let people know exactly what
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we're doing. Secondly, we ask and then
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another big one for us in this not for profit space is to
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communicate to people where their effort and then money
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actually goes. Connecting to the dots.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a lot of people make
21:03
charitable donations and they go outside of, for us it's Canberra
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region, but they go outside Canberra region and that leaves
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a lot of people with a a bad taste in their mouth.
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Bad taste, not the right way. Where's where?
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So. What do you mean that type the
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charities go spend the money out of the region or?
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Hands across Canberra sort of stat, it's like 90% of
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Canberrans donation don't go to Canberra or something like that.
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So you. Donors are funding.
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You don't. You might, you might give 100
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bucks to Heart Foundation, but there's hard foundation.
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Yeah, yeah. Or symphonies.
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They do great work, but it's not in your area.
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So that's one of the things that we're really conscious of to
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ensure that people feel like they're connected.
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We we show the benefit of or we show what's happening in the
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community. Yeah, you certainly are, again,
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a gold standard of what we say, watering your own patch of
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grass. Yeah.
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And I think a recent example of that for you, and I know you're
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excited to talk about it, is the relationship you've formed with
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master builders. ACT, yeah, but.
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To start that, I just want to give a couple quotes to kind of
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bring a bit of meaning to it and a couple other great
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organisations that are in the same space and that we've
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crossed paths with. I Got you, founded by Lisa
22:23
Mountford, who lost her son Joshua at just 25 years old.
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He worked in construction and had just been offered an
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apprenticeship the week he died, she said.
22:33
It shattered me. It was and it will be the worst
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phone call I'll ever receive. It destroyed who I was really as
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a mum to a son, my only son. And then we've got the Healthy
22:45
Tradie Project founded by Pip Seldon Yoga for Resilience,
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another great organisation who's she started it in honour of her
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brother who was a tradie and I'll quote a Ted talk.
22:57
It was just after midnight that my phone rang, a private number.
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I didn't answer, but not a minute later it rang again and
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this time it was my brother. My brother never calls me in the
23:08
middle of the night. I knew something was wrong.
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Bravely, but in a broken voice he said.
23:14
It's Dale. Dale has died by suicide.
23:18
And I guess I just wanted to bring these examples here to hit
23:21
home how important the work is and particularly the work that
23:26
you're trying to do in that sector.
23:30
Yeah, well, I mean, they're, they're hard hitting, you know,
23:36
and unfortunately we hear those stories too often and and
23:40
there's multiple stories from people we we all know close to
23:45
us. It's it's very tough to hear
23:47
that. And it it confirms to you in
23:50
your heart and soul while you actually do it.
23:55
Target teary. Yeah, Yeah.
24:00
But I think the stat, you know, Barry Dubois who spoke for us on
24:05
Tuesday, spoke about his, his attempt at taking his own life.
24:10
And, and he's mate, a guy called Gaz picked up that phone in the
24:15
middle of the night and, and knew Barry was hurting and Baz
24:20
was sitting in his car at out the front of his house ready to
24:23
take his own life. And for some reason, Gary sensed
24:27
this and, and rushed over, you know, the 30 minute drive from
24:30
where he was, you know, this fellow was there in 20 minutes
24:33
and just held him and, and was just there for him.
24:37
I mean, that started Baz's healing.
24:40
And that was he, Baz spoke about it at the breakfast to 500
24:44
people. And still, as you can tell, it's
24:45
still moving to me. It's, it's incredibly important.
24:50
Baz is a tradie, was a developer or he's a developer.
24:55
So he's been in that industry. So take taking it back to our
24:59
association with Master Builders ACT.
25:02
We've got a loose association with Master Plumbers ACT, what
25:07
we know from those stories, from lived experience that
25:12
apprentices unfortunately, and the stat is pretty confronting,
25:18
but apprentices are two and 1/2 times more likely to take their
25:20
own life than what other young fellows their age are.
25:25
So get your head around that. So apprentices are two and 1/2
25:27
times more likely to take their own life, death by suicide than
25:32
what other blokes are at their age.
25:35
So we've got these 16/17/18 year old guys finishing up school.
25:40
They've had even they might not be as engaged at schools, what
25:45
an academic person, but they still have the school
25:47
environment, everything that goes with the school.
25:50
There's a start time, there's a finish time, there's a
25:52
lunchtime, there's a little bit of discipline, this structure,
25:55
there's a couple of mates there. Even even if these guys didn't
25:58
have mice and they were a bit isolated, there's still this
25:59
structure, still going to school and then all of a sudden they go
26:02
out in and become an apprentice. It's a really tough journey for
26:07
a lot of young guys and they don't really know how to reach
26:11
out. That helps seeking behaviour and
26:15
then you throw in a lot of the other things that might be
26:17
happening at that stage of development, whether it happens
26:21
to be gambling, drinking, drugs, porn, broken relationships are
26:27
all these more difficult. Things start to get dropped in
26:30
that person's lap and it becomes really overwhelming really fast.
26:34
That's apart from the fact that you're not making a whole lot of
26:36
money and you might, you know, there could be some problems
26:39
within the home environment. Do you really have a house?
26:42
You know, do you are just living out of your, you, what's going
26:45
on here? So when you start to think about
26:48
those problems, it's pretty easy to realise that to, yeah, young
26:54
guys are really at risk. So it's, it's really important,
26:59
I think. So it's, it's nothing to do with
27:01
our success. It's just important for
27:04
organisations like Mens Link to recognise that and support those
27:08
guys through that period of time and teach and support asking for
27:14
help. And you know, I've got nothing
27:17
but credit for Anna from Master Builders ICT.
27:21
As soon as we, I met Anna at lunch about a year ago and we
27:24
just talked about lightly and Anna was like, we're doing it.
27:28
There was no grand plan. She goes, we just have to help.
27:33
And that's true. We just have to help.
27:34
And we've got the perfect Ave. We're educators, we know what
27:37
we're doing. We've got counsellors, they know
27:41
what they're doing. So we can, we can roll it out
27:44
really quickly. So it's it's a really proud
27:46
moment for us to do that. And I think we see you
27:51
mentioned, Anna, people are ready to help.
27:53
Yeah, they want to help because they care.
27:55
And I think what we just saw after those stories and when
27:59
you're talking about your experience with the the speech
28:04
in front of the 500, is it Baz or what was his?
28:07
Berry, Dubois. Berry Dubois, you care.
28:10
I can tell. That you.
28:13
Care quite deeply about this. So it's the only way that you
28:19
know, I've been very fortunate. So this is not about me, but
28:22
I've been very fortunate in my life and my career and I knew
28:26
for me it was my time to give back.
28:29
But what is giving back look like?
28:33
And it's not working for professional sporting teams like
28:37
I was able to do all that. It was fantastic.
28:40
So it was really for me, the community organisation and have
28:44
and our community was important to me and I was very fortunate
28:48
that Mens link came at the same time that I was looking to.
28:52
So yeah, I care absolutely. And I was very fortunate to be
28:56
able to find an Ave to to put that, because the truth is I'm
29:02
at the end of my professional career.
29:04
I'm 60 now so I don't have that many years.
29:06
And good Nick BJ, I doubt balls it is you and I'm.
29:10
Well, anyway, thank you. It's been cracking the whip.
29:13
Somebody cracked with me. Caroline.
29:16
Yes, Caroline, But yeah, it's really important to us.
29:20
Yeah. And.
29:21
And, you know, you go to those breakfasts and, and everybody,
29:24
everybody was moved by Barry. And Barry spoke at length.
29:28
And it'll only be another week or two before we have the video
29:31
out and everybody can watch what Barry had to say.
29:34
I work. In a Co working space with Jim
29:36
Roy, Jim Roy and and Jim came in that morning on Tuesday after
29:40
the breakfast and just first thing he said, bend him out and
29:43
he's well, yeah, well, yeah, there's breakfast, isn't it?
29:47
And he spoke talk about Barry's breathing, the breathing
29:49
exercise. Do you want to just elaborate on
29:51
that? So, Barry.
29:53
Is Jimbo loved it? Yeah.
29:54
Yeah, yeah. So Barry's very, Barry's had a
29:59
tough journey through cancer and depression, and then his wife
30:02
struggled. They struggled with pregnancies
30:06
and all sorts of things happen, and then obviously with suicide.
30:12
So it's a very difficult journey and he's found lots of different
30:16
methods through that. It's just not one simple method,
30:20
but he's very holistic about his health.
30:22
Now, one of those is breathing exercises, and I think he was
30:28
talking about breathing out for a count of eight, in for a count
30:32
of four, out for a count of seven, in for a count of four.
30:35
So it's really just a mechanism. And you see plenty of sports
30:38
teams nowadays doing it after trying and so forth.
30:41
And it's actually just a mechanism just to slow
30:43
everything down. Calm, calm the farm, so to
30:47
speak. Get some oxygen in re oxygenate
30:50
yourself. So there's there's lots of
30:51
science up behind it, but the reality is it's it's just
30:54
calming with arms, just taking stock a little bit.
30:57
Take a breath. And.
31:00
He goes so he got 500 people in the room doing it, which is
31:04
there was some really highly emotional parts of what he was
31:06
talking about and then there was some really benefits parts that
31:11
were more like the breathing.