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Becoming Anchored S2E10: Why We Struggle with Uncertainty and What to Do About It · Becoming Anchored

0:06
Hi everyone.
0:07
Welcome back to the becoming anchored podcast.
0:10
I am Lauren Jackson.
0:11
This is our other host, Laura Dineen.
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We're so glad that you're here with us today.
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We're excited to jump in and talk about the content that we have.
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Um, a quick little intro about us.
0:23
So.
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Um, Laura and I are part of a group, private practice, called
0:27
Anchored Counseling Company here in Brentwood, Tennessee.
0:31
Um, we specialize in working with, um, uh, eating disorders, disordered
0:37
eating, body image issues, and then as well as anxiety, depression,
0:43
life transition, grief, and loss.
0:45
Um, so kind of a little bit along the spectrum of, of different concerns.
0:49
So we see all ages, all genders and, um, we really love what we do and we're
0:54
super excited to have started, um, this podcast to connect with you guys,
0:59
um, in a different way and share some of our lives with you in a different
1:03
way than just sitting with clients.
1:05
So anyways, um, a quick little disclaimer.
1:08
For this.
1:09
Podcast is meant for informational purposes only.
1:11
It's not meant to be your therapy.
1:14
So if you do find that as you're listening and engaging with the
1:17
content that you may benefit from therapy, either reach out to us.
1:21
We'd love to connect with you if you're local.
1:22
If not, find somebody local to you who's licensed.
1:27
Yeah.
1:27
Welcome.
1:27
Welcome.
1:28
Welcome.
1:28
We are so, so thrilled to have you with us on the show today.
1:31
We've got a wonderful topic, um, but if you're new to the show and
1:35
this is your first episode, welcome.
1:37
We're just so thankful to have you and.
1:39
This has just been such a joy, um, engaging with you all on this platform
1:44
and it's been really life giving for both myself and for Lauren.
1:47
So, you know, Lauren actually had the idea to start the Becoming Anchored
1:50
podcast a little over a year ago and we've really just jumped in and we
1:55
were actually telling someone on the show yesterday that we've really just
1:57
kind of figured it out as we go and we don't do a lot of preparation for
2:02
these episodes in full transparency.
2:03
It's really more of a conversation and so, again, if you're new to the show, um, we
2:08
really speak from our, first and foremost, our lived experiences as human beings.
2:14
We go through hard things in life and things that are
2:18
trying and difficult for us.
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And also we also want to share in our joy and some of the things
2:24
that we've learned along the way.
2:25
And we have the gift of sitting with clients on a regular basis.
2:29
And we just both love it.
2:31
Adore that work and we adore the clients that we work with and it's just
2:34
such a gift and so that's really the the purpose of the Becoming Anchored
2:38
podcast is to not only share about our lived experiences first and foremost
2:42
as humans but also as therapists.
2:45
So thanks for being here let's go ahead and dive into this content.
3:06
So y'all we have got a really, really wonderful topic that we're going to be
3:11
sharing more about today and speaking on.
3:14
So we are going to be talking about why uncertainty is so
3:18
hard and what to do about it.
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And so this felt really important for us to dedicate an episode to because,
3:28
I don't know about you, but I certainly have struggled with uncertainty in my
3:33
own life and we see it quite frequently in our clients that present to anchored
3:39
and uncertainty is Incredibly hard to sit with and it's also incredibly common So
3:47
it's those two pieces right a lot of us do not like uncertainty and speaking from
3:53
my own perspective and my own journey of, you know, working on my own mental health
3:59
and anxiety and all that that's entailed.
4:01
Uncertainty is just, it's incredibly hard.
4:04
Um, And so we wanted to dedicate a full episode to ways to sit with
4:09
uncertainty and ways to really challenge yourself if you are facing uncertainty.
4:14
Um, it's not if, it's when, right?
4:17
So we all are going to face something that causes uncertainty or that is uncertain
4:22
and life as a whole is uncertain, right?
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So, um, that's what we're going to be talking about today.
4:27
Yeah.
4:28
Yeah.
4:29
Um, I think just to kind of bounce off of kind of what you were just
4:35
saying and introing the topic, Laura.
4:38
Um, I think that is life, right?
4:41
Like, there's something uncertain about kind of every day that we wake up.
4:49
We don't exactly know.
4:52
for certain what will happen.
4:54
We can, we can know our schedule, we can know what's planned.
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We can, we can know, you know, things that, that are
5:03
planned to unfold, if you will.
5:04
But, but still at, at the end of the day, there are things that can
5:10
happen that we, we aren't expecting.
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Especially if we're when, if we are in a season where, um.
5:19
there is something difficult going on that holds a greater weight of uncertainty.
5:25
Um, and for whatever reason, life is so uncertain, yet we as humans are
5:32
so deeply wired to want to know and want to want to have all the answers
5:38
and all the facts because it's safe and it's it's comfortable and it Um,
5:46
and we come into this world needing that we come into this world, needing
5:49
safety and security and certainty.
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And hopefully, maybe we typically do get that when the mom is
5:58
there or the caregiver is there.
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That's not everybody's story, right?
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Um, and we, we feel with you in that.
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And if that's you, then we have deep compassion for you in that.
6:12
Um, So, so yeah, you know, the, the topic of this conversation today really
6:18
is, okay, if life is so uncertain, like we're saying that it is, and we're so
6:23
wired for certainty, what do we do?
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What do we do with that?
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And, and how do we cope with that?
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How do we, how do we manage that?
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Because, you know, I think that there can be some of us who are perhaps in ways more
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wired, um, personality wise to seek or have an urgency or a need for certainty.
6:43
And then of course.
6:44
Our lived experiences can impact our, maybe, urgency for that certainty.
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You know, we talk about this a lot on, on the podcast and on the episodes.
6:56
Up until now, it's this, this idea of like, Just building more awareness or
7:02
insight around what my tendencies are when I notice things are uncertain and
7:10
I'm really trying to figure out what is coming next or what, what is going to
7:18
happen or what, you know, You know, what, what the, what the thing is that I'm like
7:23
needing to, to know or to figure out.
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So that awareness piece, I don't know, that always feels like one of the first
7:30
things that comes to mind when we, we kind of dig into one of these topics.
7:34
Yeah, totally.
7:35
And even just asking yourself the question of like, historically too, right?
7:39
Like, when I have faced uncertainty in the past, how have I responded?
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And I know it's not always this black and white, but has it been adaptive?
7:49
Yeah.
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Or what we would call healthy, or is it maladaptive or unhealthy?
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You know, do I notice that I'm more likely to get irritable with my partner
7:58
or more likely to shut down or withdraw?
8:01
So what kind of is that behavioral piece that's that insight
8:06
component that is really crucial like Lauren was talking about?
8:10
And yeah, I mean, just even on a neurobiological level like you talked
8:13
about, Lauren, Seeking certainty is part of the human experience, and I
8:18
fully agree with you that for some of us, it is a lot harder to learn
8:24
to embrace uncertainty than others.
8:27
Case in point, my husband.
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I know that when he's had things in his life that are uncertain, it might
8:32
bother him, but maybe it doesn't bother him as much as it would me.
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And I've done a lot of my own shame comparison work, right, so
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I'm certainly not saying that.
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sitting in shame as I'm saying this, right?
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I'm actually not, but it's more of that awareness piece around when
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we're both faced with uncertainty.
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I typically am going to have more distress around the uncertainty itself,
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whatever topic or subject or life circumstance that that revolves around.
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Um, and so just having an abundance of compassion for my own self,
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knowing that uncertainty Historically has been difficult for me.
9:10
Um, and some of that, like Lauren was saying, can be
9:12
because of my genetic wiring.
9:14
Um, for some of you listening, it might be because of your own stories.
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Or perhaps trauma that has been interwoven in your stories.
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So, there's lots of different reasons as to why.
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Uncertainty can be hard from a biological and environmental perspective.
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So, lots here.
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Um, and really, so step number one, just to recap all the things that we've been
9:36
saying is raising awareness around how you respond to uncertainty, whether that's in
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the present day or historically speaking.
9:47
And I'll add to that, maybe just noticing.
9:49
So we know that uncertainty oftentimes is linked to.
9:54
a response that involves some sort of fear or anxiety.
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So noticing, starting to notice where you experience that in your body,
10:04
um, is going to be really rich and fruitful information for you because
10:09
as therapists, we are constantly, you know, reminding our clients of this.
10:12
And honestly, I'm constantly reminding myself of this, but our emotions show
10:15
up in our bodies first and foremost.
10:18
And so really looking at, okay, when I.
10:20
When, when I am in a season of uncertainty, or maybe I'm waiting for,
10:25
you know, an, an employment offer, or I'm waiting to get pregnant, or whatever, uh,
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you know, I think waiting can often be, you know, interwoven with uncertainty.
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It's, it's really looking at where do I experience those physical
10:40
sensations, those emotions in my body, and maybe that tells me.
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And gives me more information than I am in a season of uncertainty itself.
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So starting to kind of link those two, naming it.
10:52
So that's that thought process and then that, um, kind of
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embodied process as well.
10:58
Laura, I'm, I'm curious because I, I would say I agree with you just in my
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own personal experience uncertainty.
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tends to be hard for me.
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I, I noticed that, um, whatever, whatever it is that doesn't feel black and white,
11:14
I can become anxious and anxiety for me can, you know, shows up in different
11:20
ways in, in my body, my heart, my, my stomach, my thoughts kind of start,
11:30
I get a little, a little crazy or whatever.
11:33
I get a little bit out of touch with reality and maybe some of you
11:37
listening can kind of relate to that.
11:39
Um, so yeah, like Laura, historically, uncertainty has.
11:43
Um, and it's been dysregulating for me.
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Um, so Laura, I'm curious and I'll share my experience with this as well, but like
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what, what do you, what have you tended to do when you have experienced uncertainty
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that like does really distress you?
12:01
Like what, what has historically been like dysfunction?
12:04
Cause one of the points that I'm making here is that we can, when,
12:08
when we don't have yet um, um, muscle that we've built to like, tolerate
12:16
uncertainty and not having answers, it can come out sideways a little bit.
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And it can, it can, that can foster like, um, uh, dysfunctional behaviors.
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So I'm just curious, like, what, what is gen up for you?
12:31
Oh my gosh.
12:31
I'm like, how many answers do you want?
12:33
Do you want five or do you want a hundred?
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And I hope for those of you listening that that's validating for you.
12:39
Um, and I have.
12:41
humor around some of the things that I've struggled with.
12:43
It's certainly not to make light of it, but it does support me towards
12:47
continued growth to have some humor.
12:49
And so when I'm laughing on the show, it's not to make light of struggles,
12:52
but it's more to, um, facilitate my own compassion towards myself.
12:57
I, I really like to poke fun at myself.
12:59
I think it brings a certain kind of levity to situations
13:02
that can be really Difficult.
13:04
So I did want to kind of have a sidebar there like when I'm laughing
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about this It's because I see a lot of myself and what you're talking about
13:10
right now Uh, but yeah, I mean I think when I'm struggling with uncertainty
13:14
again, I I have that insight to notice.
13:16
Okay, is my heart fluttering?
13:18
Um, I typically feel a sense of urgency and that That goes
13:24
hand in hand with uncertainty.
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And now, there are situations that are urgent, right?
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So, you're, something that pertains to your physical health, urgent.
13:35
When you're in a dangerous situation, or someone you love is
13:37
in a dangerous situation, urgent.
13:39
But the reality is, Uncertainty and urgency go together in the sense
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that, um, our bodies can respond and try to make sense of these
13:48
situations that are uncertain.
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And that's what Lauren was talking about before, where we're
13:52
trying to seek that certainty.
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And the reality is that not everything, and oftentimes what we're experiencing
13:59
uncertainty around is not actually urgent.
14:02
And so, and we're not in dangerous situations, right?
14:05
So, this is where that, that first and foremost, that cue to me of like, I will
14:10
start to ask myself, and this is kind of that how to, so I'm answering the second
14:14
part of your question, but I'll start to really pause and stop and ask myself
14:18
if this truly is an urgent situation.
14:22
And then, it's either going to be a yes or no answer, and then once I have
14:27
the answer to that question, I can move forward with hopefully a healthy decision.
14:33
Um, and then when I'm starting to also ask myself, and I know we've talked a
14:36
lot about this, just even not on the show today, but when I start to ask
14:40
myself what if or unanswerable questions, those are also kind of ways that cue me
14:47
into Just noticing, oh, okay, I might be struggling with some uncertainty.
14:53
And when I'm talking about this idea of an unanswerable question, some, you
14:57
know, to give you an example of what this might be like, like, what is the
15:01
weather gonna be like ten years from now?
15:03
It's like, we don't have the answer to that question.
15:06
And me trying to figure out what the answer is, is just not fruitful, it's
15:13
not productive, it's not realistic.
15:16
But yet I'm trying to spend all this time figuring out what the
15:19
weather is going to be ten years from now, and I'm Instead of, you know,
15:24
doing something else with my time.
15:25
So, it costs us our energy, our resources, um, might cost us time with loved ones.
15:31
So those are kind of two different ways.
15:33
First and foremost, for me, at least how I experience uncertainty oftentimes is
15:37
associated in some way, shape, or form with a sense of urgency when something is
15:41
not actually urgent and then asking myself questions that are not super answerable.
15:48
And I guess meteorologists have gotten a lot better at like predicting
15:51
weather patterns, but I don't think that they are like 10 years ahead
15:55
of time at this point in time.
15:57
So, yeah.
15:59
Yeah.
16:00
I, I, well I love that point that you made, the asking unanswerable
16:04
questions, because I, I think that that's probably a really, really
16:08
common thing that a lot of us do.
16:10
And.
16:11
in times of uncertainty is we do start to ask questions and we
16:15
try and answer them ourselves.
16:17
We try and come up with some kind of solution that will provide a
16:20
sense of certainty that maybe is not rooted in reality or grounded
16:25
in like the present moment.
16:26
And, um, that can, I know Laura, we were talking about this earlier, but But the,
16:33
that cycle and that pattern of asking those, those questions internally, trying
16:38
to seek out answers and that becoming a part of how you cope with uncertainty
16:41
that can then from a neuro, neuro, neurobiological standpoint, create these
16:49
like neural pathways that then become a go to way of like dealing with that,
16:55
that uncertainty that, that, like you said, turns out to not really be helpful.
17:00
Right?
17:01
They're not helpful questions to ask.
17:02
They take time, your time.
17:04
They take your energy.
17:05
They may even increase your uncertainty.
17:07
They may even increase your anxiety.
17:09
Absolutely.
17:10
It perpetuates it, right?
17:11
And so, you know, it's, it's the classic, like, the thing that you're
17:15
afraid of, when you avoid that, that fear, the fear gets bigger, right?
17:19
And so, and so, you know, in the therapy space, in the way that we're trained to
17:23
really help people walk through that, that, uh, You know, type of thing,
17:29
fear, uncertainty, anxiety is really exposing, exposing ourselves to the thing
17:35
that feels so big and so scary and so uncertain to, to experience the reality
17:43
of maybe how small it actually is.
17:45
Um, so yeah, those, those questions, I mean, I can certainly relate to that.
17:50
Just like a loop of like questions that it's like, I don't have the answers to.
17:58
But yeah.
18:00
Yeah, and that, that word that you used, loop, that just feels
18:03
so poignant today for today's episode, because that's what it is.
18:07
It's, it's really this looping.
18:10
thought process that, so the clinical verbiage that we would
18:13
introduce to a client is rumination.
18:16
Um, and again, it is that attempt, this is that psychoeducation piece, right?
18:20
It's an attempt to solve a problem or to try to get certainty even if
18:28
That's not actually a possibility.
18:31
And so, yeah, I mean, I'm just with you.
18:33
And, um, yeah.
18:35
Lots here.
18:37
Yeah, one other thought, too, that's kind of coming to mind as we're talking
18:41
about, like, that rumination piece.
18:43
Um, and just the, the ways that we can get started.
18:48
stuck or, um, the dysfunctional maybe behaviors or things that we can do
18:54
to try and cope with the uncertainty.
18:56
If we kind of go back to the beginning of, of, I was about to say session,
18:59
at the beginning of our episode, um, where we were talking about, okay,
19:03
first and foremost, and what we do first and foremost with this, our
19:07
clients too is let's build awareness.
19:08
Like let's bring our awareness and our attention back to like ourself and
19:13
what's going on in our internal process.
19:15
Um, because chances are maybe whatever dysfunction is showing up that
19:21
it's trying to help you cope with the discomfort of the uncertainty,
19:24
whether that is ruminating on these questions or, um, I don't know.
19:31
Um,
19:34
Perfectionism, or, um, I mean it can be all kinds of things.
19:37
Maybe you have an eating disorder.
19:38
Maybe you, um, Maybe you have OCD and that gets really loud and really big, right?
19:45
Like things like that.
19:46
Um, chances are those things are getting in the way of you
19:50
knowing what you're feeling.
19:52
And when we know what we're feeling, when we are embodied and we are
19:57
connected with like what Laura was saying, our internal cues and our,
20:01
those emotions that show up in our body first, then we can know what we need.
20:06
And then if we know what we need, then we can get that need met.
20:09
And then we are probably connecting with people, we're probably staying in our
20:15
value system, we're probably living in the, more in the present moment, and
20:20
we're just taking care of ourselves.
20:22
Um, and so if I'm, if I'm in a season of uncertainty and I'm waiting on this
20:30
thing that I really want and it seems like everybody else around me has it and that
20:34
is really sad and really upsetting to me.
20:38
And so I go and I,
20:42
I go and just spend all my money.
20:46
Every day I just go and like buy things because that makes me feel good, right?
20:50
Then what I'm probably covering up is like grief.
20:53
What I'm probably covering up is hurt and need to be seen and need to be it.
20:58
you know, uh, comforted and all of those things.
21:02
And so not that the, the behavior is necessarily inherently like wrong or bad.
21:08
And it's probably getting in the way of the, the core root of what's
21:16
going on, which is, I'm really sad.
21:18
Yeah, absolutely.
21:20
Yeah, and we get so good, we talk a lot about this on the show, but we
21:24
get so good at avoiding our feelings.
21:28
Mm hmm.
21:28
And so avoiding the fear or the hurt or the sadness that might be there,
21:33
uncertainty and trying to do all these things in response to uncertainty
21:37
can be a way to emotionally avoid.
21:40
Um, so I was actually going to ask you of an example for what you're talking about
21:44
and you just illustrated that beautifully.
21:45
So thank you for sharing.
21:47
I mean, I think just to kind of tag along with what you're saying too, one
21:50
thing that I'm consistently talking to clients about is really looking at
21:54
their, um, Not only their relationship to uncertainty itself, but also
21:58
their relationship to discomfort.
22:00
Because part of tolerating uncertainty and exposing ourselves to uncertainty,
22:06
um, is really leaning into discomfort.
22:10
And setting expectations, if you're listening to the show today, it's
22:14
really looking at, like, what are my expectations with uncertainty?
22:17
We're not here to tell you that sitting with uncertainty is fun or, like,
22:22
rainbows and sunshine and butterflies.
22:24
It's not.
22:25
And so really looking at, okay, what are, first and foremost, my expectations
22:29
around sitting with uncertainty, embracing uncertainty, and recognizing that I'm
22:34
most likely going to be uncomfortable when I do embrace uncertainty.
22:39
And I don't have to make all of this meaning out of the
22:43
discomfort itself, right?
22:45
So what I mean by that is I don't have to like, tell myself that I'm
22:51
a terrible person or I don't have to go down this like shame spiral or I
22:56
don't have to tell myself that I can't do this or whatever other meaning
23:01
that wraps around the uncertainty.
23:05
That I think is really important too for our listeners and honestly this
23:08
is a reminder for my own self but just because we're uncomfortable or just
23:12
because we're uncertain doesn't mean that we have to draw these conclusions
23:17
about the uncertainty or the discomfort.
23:20
Um, one thing that's really helped me is like, and you know this Lauren, because I
23:24
know I've gone to your office and talked to you about this, but if I am in a
23:28
season of uncertainty or if I'm struggling with maybe more fear or more anxiety
23:32
on any given day, naming it and really just being like, yep, okay, it's here.
23:37
And that's it.
23:38
In that moment, I don't have to do anything.
23:39
I don't have to.
23:41
Really, like, try to figure out all the ins and outs of the uncertainty itself.
23:45
I can just let it be there and then make a decision after some
23:50
of that anxiety has passed.
23:53
Yeah.
23:54
So that has really helped me, too.
23:55
Well, the, the, uh, Making meaning of the discomfort or the uncertainty
24:01
is, is in some ways similar to those unanswerable questions, right?
24:07
And, and creating a story in our minds about what's going on.
24:12
Well, this must be happening to me or I must not be getting this thing I want.
24:17
Or, or I'm longing for because I'm this bad person, or I did this
24:21
bad thing, or whatever, right?
24:23
That, that's us trying to make meaning of something that isn't helpful and
24:28
perpetuates the, uh, dysfunction of trying to cope with, you know, With the
24:35
uncertainty in a way that, um, isn't real.
24:38
Like, it's not, it's not grounded in reality.
24:41
Um, and just perpetuates shame, right?
24:44
Which doesn't create any kind of change.
24:47
Right, right.
24:48
Yeah.
24:48
Yeah, and I mean, Uncertainty is just, it's a part of life, like we've talked
24:53
about, and we're not here to tell you that it's easy or that it's comfortable.
24:56
Um, but when we can move from living in our past selves or our future
25:03
selves back to our present selves.
25:05
That's where the rich work happens around like, okay, I'm
25:09
here right now in this moment.
25:11
Like Lauren was talking about before, what do I need in this moment?
25:15
And recognizing that doubt, uncertainty, discomfort, Those are a part of, of
25:20
our lives and that's part of the human experience and so my hunch is that for
25:24
those of you listening, uncertainty might be causing you or maybe historically
25:30
has caused you pain and suffering and we're here to tell you that there are.
25:33
Um, really tangible therapeutic ways to start to work with uncertainty itself.
25:39
It doesn't mean that, you know, just because you have maybe more of a
25:43
proclivity or more of a sensitivity to uncertainty that you have to
25:46
suffer for the rest of your life.
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That's certainly not the point of this episode.
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Um, there are really amazing strategies that, that work around this
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exposure and embracing uncertainty.
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Yeah.
25:59
Yeah.
26:01
Thanks for all your wisdom.
26:02
I just, I love talking to Lauren on this show, and I'm sure that you
26:06
guys can just hear how wise she is.
26:09
So, thank you, Lauren.
26:10
Um, well, y'all know that we close with homework and an affirmation.
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So, I am going to give your homework.
26:18
Lauren's going to give your affirmation for this episode.
26:24
But your homework from me is start to, starting to examine your
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relationship to uncertainty, right?
26:31
So almost externalizing it outside of you and really looking at, you know,
26:37
historically, what are times when you have faced uncertainty in the present day?
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What are, what's going on in your life that is maybe increasing your sense
26:46
of uncertainty, um, and really looking at those responses that you have to
26:52
uncertainty itself and, and how would you maybe like to respond instead of
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the perhaps way that you are responding if that is an unhealthy way of coping.
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So that's your homework after today's episode.
27:03
Lauren, do you want to close with our affirmation?
27:06
Yeah.
27:07
Um, I don't have any like amazing novel words by any means, but I think
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I just want to encourage you all that um, maybe even if you're in like a
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place of uncertainty right now or a season of uncertainty right now,
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um, that you are capable of staying present even when thing, even when it
27:34
feels like you don't have the answers.
27:37
Um, The answers that you, you know, that you want.
27:41
So, um, there, there's like a challenge in that as well,
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like practice staying present.
27:46
And, uh, I want to encourage you that you, you're capable of doing that.
27:52
Yeah.
27:52
I love it.
27:53
Thanks so much for being here, y'all for this topic on uncertainty.
27:57
I know it's an important one.
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So we are thinking of you as you challenge yourselves.
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And as you grow in your relationship with uncertainty, we will see you next time.
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Take care.