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How SharkNinja Keeps Going Viral · What's Your Problem?

• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Pushkin.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is what's your problem. My
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: guest today is Mark Barochus. He's the CEO of Shark Ninja.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: When Mark started at the company in two thousand and eight,
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: they sold a mop and a cordless sweeper, largely via infomercial. Today,
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Shark Ninja sells six billion dollars worth of stuff every year,
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: mops and vacuum cleaners, but also ice cream makers and
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: air fryers and blenders and hair dryers and this thing
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: that's supposedly good for your skin and has lights on
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: it and you put it on your face and it
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: makes you look like a Lucha Libre wrestler. What I'm
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: saying is they sell everything now, and they sell it everywhere.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: I wanted to talk to Mark because Shark Ninja is
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: an innovative company, not in the frontiers of science sense,
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: but in the making a blender that does something you've
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: never been able to do at home before with a
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: blender since also in the designing products to go viral
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: on social media sense. As our editor said, Shark Ninja
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: is like Bell Labs for stuff nobody really needs but
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: lots of people clearly want, and so there is a
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: lot to learn from the company. In our conversation, Mark
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: and I talked about how the company develops new products,
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: the trade offs it makes between engineering the perfect product
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: and the good enough product at the right price, and
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: why the secret to going viral is Schmutz. To start,
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: I asked Mark to tell me about the company's first big,
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: non obvious leap from selling mops to selling a new
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: kind of blender.
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: We looked at the blender market and we said, you know,
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: what do consumers want to do with blenders. Well, in
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: their home they were doing one thing. But outside their home,
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: American consumers want to frozen drinks. And you'd go to
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: these Mexican restaurants and you'd get a frozen margarita and
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: they'd be done in these kind of professional, big blenders,
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: and you'd get home and you try to make it,
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: and a blender had blades that were on the bottom,
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: and so you'd put the ice into the blender and
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: the ice would just jump up because we'd never get
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: to the blades. And then so you'd add more liquid
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: and add more liquid, and by the time you added
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: a whole bunch of liquid, you no longer had a
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: frozen drink. You had this kind of cold, watery drink.
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: And so we said, well, hold on, if this is
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: what consumers want, we have to solve the problem of
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: making restaurant quality frozen drinks. And we said, why are
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: the blades on the bottom, Why don't the blades go
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: up the top. And if the blades go up the top,
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: you can put a whole bunch of ice in it.
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: You can turn the ice to snow. And we ultimately,
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: you know, developed this technology and we would buy bags
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: of ice in gas stations and we'd walk into the
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: Walmart buyer and we would fill the ice to the
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: top of the picture. We'd put the blade inside and
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: we turned the ice to snow and we'd pour the
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: picture of snow onto the table and we'd say, look
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: at this fuel, this consistency. Well, the buyer thought we
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: were crazy at the time, but that was the secret
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: ingredient to making these creamy, restaurant quality frozen drinks. And
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: so when we went out and the first time we
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: launched this Ninja Master Prep was in two thousand and
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: nine on QVC and instantly it sold out. One day,
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: we sold like forty thousand units in one day.
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  Speaker 1: Was the biggest success we had.
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: Ever had one day in the company's history, and what
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: it was was that the minute we did these demonstrations,
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: consumers immediately said, not wow, I've never heard of this
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: brand Ninja, you know, or oh, what an interesting blender.
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: What they said is they solved my problem. They solved
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: my problem. That's what I want to do with a blender. Well,
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: that is everything that Shark Ninja stands for today. That
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: when the consumer sees what we've developed, whether it's a fan,
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: whether it's an air fryer, whether it's an outdoor grill,
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: whether it's a skincare mask, whether it's a hairstyle, or
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: whether it's a vacuum, what we want is for the
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: consumer to look at the product and say, they solved
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: my problem.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: I know your partner did infomercials. Did you ever do infomercials?
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: Because I suddenly feel like I'm watching an infomercial.
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  Speaker 1: I did not do infomercials.
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  Speaker 2: Is it true that you were going to call the
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: thing that became the Ninja the Fiestaville.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: It is true.
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  Speaker 2: You could have been Shark Fiestaville instead of Shark Ninja.
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  Speaker 3: We could have been Shark Fiestaville. But you know, there
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: was a you know, there was a retailer buyer that said, look,
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: I love the product, but the name is a really
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: dumb name. And they said, you know, go back and
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: come up with something, you know, more more compelling. And
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: we actually we looked at the blades. If you've ever
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: seen a Ninja blender and you see the blades that
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: go up, we kind of looked at them and it
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: was like kind of when we were a kid, you know,
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: you would take a Chinese star and you throw it
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: against a tree or something and it would stick, and
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: you know, literally, I think there was probably forty eight
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: hours after that meeting where they told this Fiestaville was stupid,
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: We said, how what about Ninja?
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: And we socialized it and people said.
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: Oh, you know Ninja, I don't know, Ninja maybe sounds
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: like a dumb name as well.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: Look it ultimately proves to you.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, Ninja last year finished at a three point
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: three billion dollar brand. We never acquired a dollar of
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: revenue under the Ninja brand.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: So you've built this giant, multi billion dollar business. I
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: read a recent interview with you where you said, you
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: still feel like you're always losing. What's going on there.
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: I mean, every day we're either gaining loyal consumers or
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: we're losing frustrated consumers. And you know, I don't think
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: that success is permanent. I also don't think that failure
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: is permanent. I think failure is a temporary can condition,
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: and I think success is a temporary condition. And I
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: think that you earn the right to stay in business
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: every day. You earn the right, you know, to generate
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: revenue from the consumer's hard earned dollar every day. And
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  Speaker 3: I think that when I go into the office in
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: the morning and I read a one star review about
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: our products, I mean, it ruins my day. I mean
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: it genuinely does. I mean, at the size of business
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: that you are today, and if you get a five
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: star review, it like puts wind at your sales. And
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: so when I'm saying that I feel like we're losing,
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: I feel like there's so much more that we can do.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: I want to talk about your product development process in
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: a little bit more detail. And I thought it might
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: be useful to talk about a specific product. And I
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: wondered if we could do the Ninja Creamy the ice
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: cream maker, because in part it seems not obvious like
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: this seems like a case that the people of America
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  Speaker 2: were not clamoring for an ice cream maker to put
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: on the counter. Where did that come from? And sort
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: of step me through the process of actually making that
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  Speaker 2: turning it into a product.
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  Speaker 1: Okay.
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  Speaker 3: So look, product development is like getting little nuggets and
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: insights and kind of trying to put all the pieces
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: together to what we call create a mouse trap. Okay,
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: and that mousetrap has to have.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: Wait, am I the mouse in that metaphorm in potentially potent?
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: You're catching me when I buy your product. You might
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: want to refixt that.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: And so the question is what is that?
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  Speaker 3: So we had ethnographic researchers in restaurants and we started
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: looking at how do high end restaurants make ice cream?
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  Speaker 3: I mean they're just opening up a Ben and Jerry's
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: thing and scooping it out. No, I mean they're actually
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  Speaker 3: making ice cream in very very expensive machines in these restaurants,
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  Speaker 3: and they're controlling the ingredients, and they're tweaking the ingredients
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: and doing all these things.
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  Speaker 1: So that was one data point.
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  Speaker 3: There was a second data point where I I have
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: two children that both have nut allergies, and you know,
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: I have another child that has a dairy allergy, and
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: so we felt like there was a whole market around
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  Speaker 3: people that would be willing in their home to kind
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: of craft ice cream due to dietary restrictions or allergies
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: or things like that. That's a second data point, okay,
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: that we know. Third data point was that we know
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  Speaker 3: that consumers love doing things that kind of bring people together,
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: bring families together, and so the ability for you to
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: be able to make ice cream, you know, as a
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  Speaker 3: family is like an exciting thing, like everyone gets involved,
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: and so there's like a communal aspect to it. So
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: there's those three things that were coming together.
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: Let me ask just before we got farther there. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: you mentioned there was an expensive restaurant machine, right, Is
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: it right that part of the story is like it
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: was going off patent, they had some particular intellectual property
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: in it was going into the public domain. Is that right?
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: There's lots of machines out there that you can buy
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  Speaker 3: in restaurants.
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  Speaker 1: I mean the point was, yes.
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  Speaker 2: What there was not some intellectual property opportunity that was
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: some part of this.
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: No, in fact, in fact that Ninja Creamy has a
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: lot of intellectual property within it. But it was it
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: was how is something made outside of the home that
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  Speaker 3: tastes so great that the consumers not able to do
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: it inside of the home. Now here's something very interesting
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: for you to know. It was never the idea of
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: Shark Ninja to develop protein ice cream, Like we created
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: this hardware.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, this Ninja creamy product.
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  Speaker 2: Well wait before protein ice cream is like the end
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  Speaker 2: of the story, right, I feel like there's a few
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: more things that have to happen first. Like one is,
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: you have to figure out how to turn the eight
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: thousand dollars restaurant machine into a two hundred dollars machine. Right,
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  Speaker 2: how do you do that?
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: First of all, we start with a target price of
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: what we we'd love to sa sell it. Now, sometimes
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: that target price is you know, complete pie in the
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: sky where we go to the engineers and we'd say,
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: we'd love to be able to sell this product for
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: one hundred and ninety nine dollars. And after the engineers,
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: you know, get back off the floor and tell you
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: how dumb you are, because you know the motor is
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: going to cost this and the PCBA is going to
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: cost this. In the ways we say okay, like let's
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: now start figuring it out, like how large could the
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: size of the pint be? You know, in order to
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: be able to kind of control all these variables. Product
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: development is about managing all of these different you know, requirements.
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: It's not about developing the best product always. It's about
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: that trade off, its tradeoffs, and it's about developing the
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: best performance at the best quality, at the best value,
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: and it's the combination of those things. Sometimes product development
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: is actually a vanity exercise. There are times where I
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: go on to Kickstarter and I look at a product
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: and the product is amazing, Okay, is it is incredible
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: what they've done.
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: And then you look.
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: At the price tag and you're like it's eighteen hundred dollars. Yeah,
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: and you're like, listen, for eighteen hundred dollars, you're dealing
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: with such a small of a small consumer base. So
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: going back to the creamy example, we had to sit
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: there and for literally months and months it was trade
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: off conversations.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: My understanding. So it comes out in twenty twenty one
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: in the pandemic, you have this thesis about everybody's home
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: and cooking, which was correct, but it doesn't seem like
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: the Creamy really took off when it came out.
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: Yes, and we started in the second half of twenty
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: twenty two focusing it much more on social media. We
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: started seeding it to lots of people.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: This is your marketing strategy, right, This is a good
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: time to talk about that. Like you guys do as
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: much creator marketing as let's say, anybody to a first approximation, right,
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: tell me about what you did with the Creamy and
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: how that sort of reflects more broadly the way you
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: do creator marketing and social media marketing.
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: Well, let's start with the end result is to have
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: consumer organic flywheel going.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: That's the end results.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: You don't have to keep paying creators forever for a
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: given produmt No.
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: And by the way, it becomes so authentic when thousands
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: of consumers are sharing their insights and are sharing their
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: best recipes. But you have to light the organic flywheel.
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: And so you light the organic flywheel by getting creators, chefs,
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: other key opinion leaders that are doing things with the
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: product to start to spur excitement. Now, fortunately for us,
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: by the time that started in the second half of
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: twenty twenty two, we already had lots of units.
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: Out in the market.
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: So we started investing tremendously at that point in social
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: media influencers, social media marketing, and by Christmas of twenty
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: twenty two, that started activating the people that had bought
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: the product. At the end of twenty twenty one and
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: into twenty twenty.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: Two, activating mean it got them to start.
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: Posting exactly, sharing recipes, posting, troubleshooting, unboxing.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: Unboxing is a really exciting thing.
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: I mean, people, there's a whole cottage industry of influencers
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: that just go on and do that. We don't pay
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: that just do unboxing of our products.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: Just to make this clear, this is literally people who
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: open products and take them out of the box and
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: that's the video. I will say, I love returning things.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: I have dreamed of making reboxing videos for other dads
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: who love returning things, but I haven't done it.
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: And on the unboxing it's like going through first use,
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: like getting the consumer all the way through the unboxing
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: process to the first use. As we got into twenty
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: twenty three again that started accelerating. I mean, we started
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: finding more and more use cases. The beginning of twenty
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: twenty three is when protein ice cream really started so.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: Was it protein ice cream that really sent the creamy
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: through the roof with that? What did it?
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: Protein ice cream was a huge catalyst of being able
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: to do it. And what protein ice cream did was
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: it started this massive creator group of just developing their
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: own ideas. There are you know, influencers that have channels
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: of just will it creamy?
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: And are you still putting money into it at this
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: point when this is happening. Are you like seeing this
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: and be like, oh, yeah, let's put a lot of
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: money into protein ice cream.
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: So we were putting a lot of money into it
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: in twenty twenty three. Okay, here's the interesting thing that
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: turned and it turned on us, I would say the
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: second half of twenty four where there was so much
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: organic content being developed that we no longer had to
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: put our own marketing money behind it.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I have my own creamy journey and we booked
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: you before this happened. So it's just a coincidence. First
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: of all, you're starting the viral marketing flywheel. Worked on
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: my teenage daughters who know everything they know from TikTok.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: They asked for a creamy for Christmas. It's great, we
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: made gelato together. Your dream come true, and then it broke. Wow, Yeah,
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: it just broke. It just broke. Do you want to
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: guess how it broke?
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: Tell me, I'm anxious to hear.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: Okay, my daughter, I think she put the bowl in wrong.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, she's a teenager. I don't feel like I had.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: But there's an interesting question to me, which is to
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: what extent I guess to some extent it's my fault
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: because I'm the dad or whatever. To what extent is
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: that my fault? To what extent is that my daughter's fault?
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: And to what extent is it your fault? Because it like,
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: it's not like we dropped it. It was not like
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: a gratuitous thing, and like it seems like it was
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: kind of easy to break it.
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: Frankly, Well, here's what I would say, Like it's all
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: my fault.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: Okay, I mean I'm not saying that.
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: I'm truly not no, no, because listen, I mean, if
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: we understand now, like what your daughter did in terms
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: of you know, maybe she pushed it in the wrong
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: way and maybe you know, she got some resistance and
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: she overshot it.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: It's clearly a mistake other people have made.
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: Okay, And you know what I would say, is that like,
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: from the time we develop a product, as we're getting
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: consumer feedback on the product, that product is evolving and changing. Okay,
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: we're making constant upgrades to those products. Now, I'll give
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: you a good example. When we came out with our
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: first blender, we drop spoons and forks into the blender
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: and to make sure that like that wasn't going to
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: break the blender, because you know what, something could slip
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: out of somebody's hand and it goes into there. And
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: from a reliability standpoint, the product should be able to
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: stand up to kind of what we call.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: Like reasonable consumer abuse. Okay, now I don't know what
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: your your daughter did was reasonable.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: Consumer it was reasonable. I think it was reasonable. The
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: bull get stuck seems like a thing. Although I will say,
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: let me say the end of this, I'd actually not
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: dealt with it, because of course you don't deal with
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: it whatever. And I was like, oh, I'm interviewing the
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: guy this week. I better deal with it and see
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: what happens. And so a couple of days ago, I whatever,
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: I filled out that just the thing online and it
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: was a Christmas gift and like we didn't have the
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: receipt and I was like, oh, it's gonna be a
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: pain of this. It actually was good, at least so far.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: I went online a few hours later later that night
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: somebody was like, Okay, send us a picture of these things,
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: and I did that and they're like, okay, we're gonna
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: send you a new one. So, as far as I know,
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: a new one is on the way. And actually my
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: other daughter, not the one who cause I broke it,
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: she was like, wow, you got to tell the guy.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: It's great. So I think a reasonable resolution.
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: But look, it goes to the example of what I
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: said to you in the beginning about winning and losing,
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: like you had an experience, and regardless of whether it's
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: your fault or it's our fault, you know, I want
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: you as a consumer for life.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it would be better if it hadn't broke, right, Like,
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: there are lots of other things where you got to
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: put the bull in right, But if you put the
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: bull in wrong, it just doesn't turn on. It's not
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: like broken and stuck forever right. Right, Although presumably this
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: is one of your trade offs. I imagine the engineers
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: were like, oh, we could fix this, but it would
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: add twenty dollars to the cost or something, and not
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: to say that you should have chosen the other trade
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: offf to be clear, I'm not I don't know, but
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: I imagine they knew that it could break in this
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: way and they couldn't fix it, or they couldn't fix
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: it at a reasonable price or without lowering the quality
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: or something right in the.
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: End, I mean, And I'm sure that the person who
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: you randomly sent this in didn't know that you and
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: I were speaking.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: No, absolutely that I didn't tell them, no, of course not.
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: And so the fact that they made it right, you know,
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: kind of lives up to our positively impacting people's life.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: The breaking was worse than an expected, but the resolution
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: was better than I expected, and the ice cream is
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: quite good. Like, we'll get a new one and we'll
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: make more ice cream.
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: And my hope is that your daughter is like, hey,
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: like the Ninja brand really stood by.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: It still to come on the show what Shark Ninja learned?
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: When they say their employees into ordinary people's houses to
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: watch them vacuum. Tell me about the ethnographic research that
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: you do, like, in particular, who are the people who
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: do it, what's their background and sort of why are
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: they particularly good at their jobs.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: So you know, Steve Jobs always had you know, a
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: famous line right of like you know.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: You wouldn't do focus groups.
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: And I don't think it's really a question of like
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: not doing focus groups. I think that the consumer doesn't
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: know what's possible, right, They just know the world that
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: exists with them.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: So when we go into one hundred consumer homes.
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: And we watch them vacuum, and eight of those consumers
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: turn the vacuum over, take a knife or a razor blade,
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: slice the hair off the brush, roll, pull the hair out,
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: throw it in the garbage, and at the end of
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: the cleaning session, we say, is there anything you do
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: to improve your vacuum?
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: They say, no, I think it works great.
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: And we said, well, what about when you nearly sliced
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: your hand off and you pulled the hair out, And
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: they start apologizing for it. They start saying, oh, we
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: have two daughters with long hair, we have pets in
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: the house. That's just they've learned to live with the
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: problems of their existing products.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: They don't know what's possible. They don't notice it.
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: There and say to our researchers, Hey, I'd love if
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: the vacuum didn't wrap hair for fifteen years. Every two
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: weeks they slice the hair off the brush roll and
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: they throw it away.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: I feel like you don't need to be like that
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: insightful to get that one. Like I feel like not
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: to be a modest I feel like I might notice
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: that one. Like, what's a subtler thing, you guys.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: We'll think about this.
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: Before we came out with Shark's self cleaning brush roll
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: about four years ago, there were eighty years of vacuums
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: that did not have this technology.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: Fair Enough, I didn't notice it. I didn't come out
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: with a self cleaning brush roll. But I imagine the
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: people who you have going out into people's homes noticed
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: much subtler things than that. And I'm curious about the
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: subtler end of what they're doing.
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: Sure, I mean, I'll give you a great example. In
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: twenty seventeen, we came out with a product called the
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: Ninja Foodie. At the time, all the rage in kitchens
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: was pressure cooking. People were pressure cooking pressure cooking. It
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: had like completely reinvented itself.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: It you're not saying the name, but that's what we're
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: talking about.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Pressure cooking. And so if you go online. These pressure
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: cookers were.
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: Getting very good reviews, I mean four point five stars,
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: you know, four point four stars, and so there wasn't
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: an obvious problem. We went into consumer homes and we
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: observed that many people were taking the food out of
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: their pressure cooker and were then putting it into the
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: oven under the broiler, and they said, well, a chicken
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: is very tender, but it comes out and it's like
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: it's it's not crispy, and it's like a little like
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: dull looking. It doesn't look all that appealing.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: A broiler finishes a nice move, like if you're cooking stick,
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: it's up under the broiler at the end. It's a move, yeah, exactly.
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: And so so there was an example where where we
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: came back and we said, wow, there's a problem. What
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: if we had a pressure cooker that could crisp? And
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: that was the original Ninja FOODI. It became a huge
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: success for us. Okay, the Ninja Foody kind of launched
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: a whole new line of cooking products for us. It
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: ultimately became a very very successful business for us. But
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: that all came out of that little insight. If you
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: would have comed consumer reviews, you would have never seen
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: it in there. If you would have asked consumers, you'd
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: have never seen it in there. It's watching people in
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: their homes doing little things and then saying, well, what
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: if we could combine the whole process for them. Now
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: here's what's something interesting about it. Let's go back to
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: your point on product development. In product development, there was
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: always an approach that we called TOA, and toe TOA
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: was referred to as the threshold of acceptability on a product. Okay, So,
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: for example, a TOA on a vacuum cleaner might be noise. Yeah,
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: I see, you're never We're never going to have something silent,
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: But you know, how do we make it so that
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: it just gets to a TA level?
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: Quiet enough on any on any dimension? What is the
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: good enough bar?
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: Exactly where a consumer is not going to go online
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: and write a review and say, oh my god, I
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: unboxed this product and I can't believe how quiet it is. Okay,
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: it's so it's just TOA is what you're going to
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: put into it. Then you've got something called toe. Toe
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: is threshold of excellence. Threshold of excellence is, for example,
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: in a vacuum cleaner, we do an amazing job cleaning. Okay,
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: and in particular cleaning carpets. When you use our product
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: for the first time on carpets, the amount of dust
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: and dirt that is in your dust cup, it's a wow.
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: Consumers love seeing their dust cups filled up. They like
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: these big dust cups and then they love to empty
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: them and say, oh my god, I can't believe what
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: was in my carpet there before I bought a Shark vacuum,
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: And so a toe is something that the consumer is
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: going to go online and write a review and say,
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: I use my Shark and it is unbelievable.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: Okay, I can't believe what its like.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: I get it. So, but like I feel like you're
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: going somewhere with this, like land this idea for that.
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: So now there is a thing called TOV and TOV
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: is threshold of viral or threshold of virality, and that
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: did not exist pre two thousand and four, and so
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: from two isn't it for onward? We now as we're
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: developing a product, we now look at it from first
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: principles of how is this product going to drive virality.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: We developed a product that.
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: Just came out last holiday season called the Shark Facial
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: pro Glow. It's an at home facial product. This is
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: a product that you go around your face and you
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: put these topicals on and it extracts the dirt from
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: your pores and then it hydrates and moisturizes you. What
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: we found is that what people love is looking inside
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: of the dirty canister. Okay, after it's extracted and they
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: see gunk.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: So it's all this schmutz was just in my face.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: That is the virus.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: I love schmutz. Okay.
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: They love schmutz in a in a vacuum cleaner, dust cup.
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: They love it in a facial you know, gunk tag.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: That's your real secret, at least on the other Shark side.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: That is your secret to billion dollars success. People love schmud.
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: That's that's exactly. But I mean we'll develop business cards
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: with that.
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: Okay, let's talk about a few things that haven't worked
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: for you or that you haven't figured out. I mean,
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: you tell the story of sort of success after success,
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: But what's something you did that didn't work.
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: Back in twenty ten, we were just getting started in
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: the vacuum business and we developed the Shark multi vacuum.
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: We became enamored with this had massive suction power in
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: this very small compact vacuum. The reality was is that
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: it was like an erector set. Okay, if you've typed
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: in Shark multivac, you could still probably see it. Okay,
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: we couldn't scrub the Internet of the Shark multivacs.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: Erector set meaning too complicated.
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: Too complicated, not easy. Its aesthetically unpleasing. You know, nothing
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: good about it other than the fact that from a
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: performance standpoint.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: It was a okay in the way.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: In the way you did it interesting. So it's like
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: it was an amazing vacuum, but it sucked. Is the
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: interesting justa position?
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: Yes?
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: Yes, we launch it into the market and it is
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: a disastrous failure.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: Okay, at a time when our.
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: Business was much much smaller, we we knew it was.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: Going to be a failure right away.
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: We went to retailers proactively, We cleaned it up. We
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: said we're going to liquidate the price down. It took
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: us about a year to sell through all the inventory.
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: But we looked at that and we did a post
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: mortem of that, and instead of saying never speak about
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: the Shark multi vac again, we said, like, there's something
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: in this thing that's amazing, but the way we executed
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: it was totally wrong. And so we ultimately said, there's
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: something is exciting why every vacuum is designed to just
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: clean floors. We want to develop vacuums that clean the
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: floor but also allow you to go above the floor everywhere,
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: and in all other vacuums that was done with a hose.
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: And so it gave birth to a product called the
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: Shark lift Away. The sharklift Away was developed in twenty eleven.
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: It became the number one selling vacuum cleaner in the
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: United States in twenty thirteen, and the sharklift Away is
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: still the number one selling vacuum cleaner in the United States.
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: And this all came from all the technology that was
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: in that Shark multivac. So I pointed out because when
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: you say like failing, we fail every day, Like I
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: don't have to go beyond today, okay to give you
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: examples of failing.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: Okay, what failed today? What failed today?
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: We were developing product we're launching in Spain, and we
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: realized that the packaging that we sell in Spain doesn't
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: have anything in Spanish. But we just launched in Spain
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: last holiday season, I mean three months ago. Our business
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: is growing fast. We didn't take a step back and say, hey, well,
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: I mean our packaging is not in Spanish. I mean
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: we're not catering to the Spanish consumer. I walked out
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: of a meeting three hours ago where this insight was
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: served up by none other than our sales leader in
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: Spain that was trying to work around this, and we
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: stopped the meeting and we said time out, like we
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: need to fix this, like we need to fix this yesterday.
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: So you look at that and you say, like, how
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: did we get to a place where we launched the
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: product into the market and you know we don't have
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: Spanish language on the packaging.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: Now here's the thing.
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: Like I said to you in the beginning, failure is
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: all temporary, Okay, failure is a temporary condition.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: Like we're going to change this.
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: We're going to react quickly, We're gonna move, We're gonna
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: get it done, We're going to get.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: It into the market.
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: I know consumers in Spain are loving our products and
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: they're engaging with us tremendously on social media, but you
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: know they're seeing Spanisanish language social media and then the
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: products showing up in their house it's showing up in
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: their house in English or in French or in German
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: or something.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: And so so we got it. We got to do
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: right by the consumer.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: What's a category that you want to get into but
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: you haven't figured out?
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: I mean there's so many.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, what's your white whale, what's like,
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: what's There's got to be one that you're like, come on,
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: I really want to make X. What's X.
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: There are a number of things in the roadmap. I
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: think the wellness category is ripe for disruption.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: Okay, what does that word mean in the context of
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: your business?
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: So we got into skincare, and like, our skincare business
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: is growing tremendously globally.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: I think that opens.
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: Up the next doors for us SCALP, you know, other
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: places in the beauty space. Like people's feeds are not
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: just about skin care. Let's look in like, what are
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: people engaging with. They're engaging with health, they're engaging with wellness,
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: they're engaging with kind of what are ways to kind
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: of improve the quality of my life. I think sleep
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: is a really interesting category for us to consider and
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: think about.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: So here's the thing.
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: If I had one core technology, I would be landlocked.
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: If I took that core technology, I applied it to
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: a bunch of different things, and I was done.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: Okay, there was no other place for me to put it.
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: My core technology is I want to go find the
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: next consumer problem to solve, and I think there's an
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: unlimited number of problems to solve.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: Let's finish with the Lightning round. Slightly more random. What's
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: the most things in one that you think a home
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: appliance could be.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: We have a product that's a thirteen and one, so.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: You have right now on your website the Ninja fourteen
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: in one possible cooker pro.
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: Okay, so fourteen is now the new benchmark. I'm confident
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: we can go to sixteen.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: What's one appliance or device you wish you guys had invented?
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know in the iPhone.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: I mean this is something iPhone good one. I like
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: your thinking big, is this something.
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: That good people can't live without? I mean, look, I
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: think there's a lot of people that can't live without
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: their Ninja creamy, and we've read consumer reviews. If I
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: can't live without it, but I think I think the
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: iPhone does a pretty good job of that.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: That is an extremely strong answer. What's a tip for
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: me if I want to tell real user reviews from
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: fake reviews.
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: Look, I think there's an authenticity element that you can see,
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: you know, as people are talking about a product, or
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: particularly when they're writing about a product.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: I think that people can.
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: Read through, you know, somebody that is reading off of
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: a script versus somebody that has had some aha moment.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: What's one thing you learned selling T shirts as a
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: student at the University of Michigan.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: The consumer.
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: I mean, if you do right by the consumer, you know,
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: and the consumer feels like they're getting value, they are
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: going to keep coming back to you. I mean, I
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: remember I was selling T shirts. They were five dollars
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: a piece at J. C. Bennett, Okay, and you know,
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: there were other brands at the time that were selling
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: you know, fifteen twenty dollars T shirts and I was
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: And I remember, like I never aspired to sell like
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: the highest end things. I aspired to, you know, have
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: something that delivered extraordinary value to the consumer. And even
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: at that time, I remember I was buying Haynes Beefy
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: t T shirts.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: Those were good T shirts. I remember hits me fifty.
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: They were good quality, and I remember there was a
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: competitor at the time that was selling fifty to fifty
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: polyester cotton T shirts and minds were Haynes BFT at
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: five dollars screen printed.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: Actual shark versus actual Ninja battle to the death, who wins?
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: And that's like asking like which one of your kids
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: would win or something.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: Come on, but it's not the metaphor. Not the metaphor
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: set aside the company.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: Look a Ninja's pretty cunning. I mean so yeah, yeah,
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: it's hard to go.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: How much water is there? Seems like the obvious question
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: to be right, like the more water, the worse for
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: the ninja. Thank you for your time. It was delightful
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: to talk with you.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: Same here. Thanks for having me.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: Mark Barochus is the CEO of Shark Ninja. Today's show
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: was produced by Gabriel Hunter Chang and Leo Rose. It
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: was edited by Lydia Jenekutt, and it was engineered by
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: Sarah mcgare. You can email us at problem at pushkin
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: dot fm. Please do email us. You can also find
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: me on LinkedIn. I'm on x at Jacob Goldstein. Thanks
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: for listening. We'll be back next week with another episode
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: of let's Your Problem.