Latest / The High-Performing Technical Leader / Ep. 27- How to Build Outcome-Driven Customer Success (Not Reactive CS) with Andrea Mulligan

Transcript

Ep. 27- How to Build Outcome-Driven Customer Success (Not Reactive CS) with Andrea Mulligan · The High-Performing Technical Leader

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back, everybody, to Presales Unplug the Leadership Playbook.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Arvi Karpanji, I'm the founder of Elite Talent.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: I work with SaaS companies to hire top-tier pre-sales and post-sales talent, but today isn't about me as always.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, this show is really about the leaders building the go-to-market team and strategies that actually work in today's market.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: If this is your first time joining us, welcome.
• 0:24
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• 0:31
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• 0:35
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• 0:42
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• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: I personally read every single one of them.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I also make sure to tag the guests if you have any questions outside of the podcast so that you can get your answers and give you as much value as possible.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: With that being said, today I'm super excited to be joined by uh Andrea Mulligan.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: She's a chief customer uh success officer.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: She's has a very strong track record in the space, and I'm really excited to dive into and really go inside her mind today and how she really transforms these customer success teams.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, a fun like little fact about Andrea and I, we were on leadership classes together, and as we are obviously meeting, I guess weekly, right, Andrea?
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, just one thing led to another.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then you went into a really deep dive about customer success.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I love what you just said.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: You need to come on my podcast and share this live.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, you're kind enough to say yes.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you and welcome.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: I I uh give you a lot of credit for wanting to get inside this brain.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's not necessarily it's probably a scary place to be, but I'm excited to be here.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: And and the topic is one that I'm really passionate about, kind of nerdy, passionate about.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so uh if if I go too long and I'm rambling, cut me off and we'll get to the next topic.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: I got you.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, first of all, obviously I would love our audience um to know a little bit more about your story.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: How did you end up in this wonderful world of customer success?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, it's interesting.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know that I have a um a typical story around it.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe there isn't one.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I mean it really goes back to high school, to be frank.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: I I went to a vocational high school, I studied the printing industry, and the thing I loved about the work I was doing when I was in school was when the customers would walk into the shop.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: So uh back when I was in school, uh the local plumber, the school committee, they could come in to our print shop at my school and get work done.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: It was cheaper for them to do it.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: It gave us experience.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: And the part of the job I loved the most was engaging directly with those customers, greeting them at the door, doing their estimates, finding out what was important about this project, following up with them when the work was done.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I landed in a pretty natural place, which was tied to just kind of my DNA and who I am.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: I worked in the publishing industry for a few years, which is a tangential to the printing industry after college, and then the internet happened.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I found the printing industry to be uh slow to change, a little boring, like, okay, I've been doing this for a really long time.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's time to do something else.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I was able to get into some um startup software companies and again just kind of gravitated to working directly with customers.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so you know, my passion is, you know, first of all, I'm very goal-oriented.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I do a lot of racing and endurance athlete stuff.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm always setting PRs and goals and trying to get there.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I love to help other people get to, you know, be part of their success story.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so I just think it's just been a natural place for me to be.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: I love technology.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: So again, like all of these things between the technology, the goal setting, the customer facing part of it, I think it's just a natural place for me to be.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it's more DNA than anything else.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, the thing I love the most about it is like there really is no right or wrong way to enter into the tech space.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I know a lot of people I talk to on a daily basis are like, okay, how do I enter into the tech industry?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because I come from different industries, you know, like you said yourself.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I know that was a long time ago, technically, but what was there anything specific that you did to land that role in tech, or maybe what attracted you to tech at the time that made you switch from like the printing industry to the tech?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, like I said, one of the things that, you know, spending four years in high school studying printing and then four years in college studying printing, and then whatever it was, three or four years post-college working in publishing, which again, tangential to printing, it was like 12, 13 years of printing, and not a lot had changed.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, I am entrepreneurial by nature, started a couple of businesses.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've or I've attached myself to someone else's vision and been trying to build things.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so I'm always looking for the next new thing.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think the driver for leaving the printing industry was a little bit of boredom in terms of that industry, and then timing, right?
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: The it was the late 90s, the dot-com boom was starting, and someone in my network said you should look at this.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and I got really lucky.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: I I joined a company called Online Development Corp.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: No longer in existence, got acquired.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it was a it was a five-person software startup.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: We were building e-commerce websites for direct marketers and shifting into online analytics.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and the the the president of the business was a highly educated, really smart, one of the smartest people I've ever met, guys.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what attracted me to him was two things.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think number one, um, I had this kind of customer-facing project management.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: I was not formally a project manager, but again, DNA, this one kind of informal project management background that he needed.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was also working on my MBA part-time nights.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think he saw the investment that I was making in myself as a positive thing.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think those are the two things that kind of set me apart and got me that position.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I worked with him, and this was, you know, this is a 10-person startup.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I know we're going to talk a little bit about the difference between 10 person versus 200 person or larger, but I mean, this is just being scrappy and working hard.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, if I'm nothing else, I'm scrappy.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, I'm never the smartest person in the room, but I can oftentimes be the scrappiest person in the room and in a growth stage business or a startup, that scrappiness kind of sets you apart.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so yeah, I think I think that I just I believe you that luck plays a role in your success, but I think you have to make room for that luck.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: You have to create that just putting yourself out there and saying, this is what I want to do, this is who I am, this is what I'm good at, this is where I'm willing to make investments.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: And he trusted me and got me into that role.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: And and then, you know, the path was set from there.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I I have some good news for anybody listening.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: That kind of requirement hasn't really changed much.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Startups are still looking for scrappiness, somebody that works hard.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, honestly, like me being on the hiring side all the time, one of the biggest things that startup founders always are looking for is somebody willing to work hard and do more with little and you know, be able to figure things out and be creative and again use that scrappiness to their advantage.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it in a way, but again, like the foundations haven't really changed.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: But the feedback, yeah, I agree.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you know, even in a growth stage business, you still need that scrappiness, right?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you're a 200-person software company, you know, when I was at Patronics, we were competing against Toast.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: Toast had 6,000 employees, we had 280, right?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so we had to do all the same work that Toast.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we had to do it with a lot fewer people, and so yes, we needed system and process for scalability, but we also need people who are just hardworking, scrappy, wanting to get it done, competitive, you know, like we're gonna win this thing.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like those are all really important qualities that um we had to hire for because we didn't have 6,000 employees where you could show up and work from nine to five and just do your little piece of it, you know.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: With that being said, actually, that's a great transition.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: And but correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you spent six years there at that company.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to understand a little bit more of your customer success journey there.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when did you join and how did it change over the years?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I was there just under six years.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if you don't mind, I want to take you back just a little bit in terms of my customer success journey.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: So when I joined Gomez in 2006, which was two or three jobs before Patronics, um, my very first day on the job, uh, the CFO of the company, a gentleman named Rick Dara, who I still stay in touch with, he's fantastic, came over to my desk and he introduced himself to me.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: I hadn't met him during the interview process.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, Andrea, let me tell you what success is for you.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: I came in as director of professional services back in 2006.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: CS really wasn't a thing.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: It was professional services, right?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: So Rick said to me, let me tell you what success is for you.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: He said, You come from a professional services background where services revenue and services margin were king.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: He said, That's not the case here.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: He said, if you build a professional services business with rapidly growing services revenue and 60% margin, and you can't show that the work you're doing is helping us drive our SaaS business, you will fail.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: He said, if you come in and you build a breake-even professional services organization, and you must be break-even, you can't cost us money, but you can show that when your team works with our customers, they renew at a higher rate and they grow at a larger rate, you will be wildly successful.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that has become the foundation for every professional services or customer success organization I have led or built since.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because what he was saying is what I'm saying today.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure that you're delivering value and you're delivering outcomes for our customers so that when our sales team comes in and says, Are you ready to renew?
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Would you like to grow?
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: The answer is naturally yes.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm really pleased to say that the team that I built, you know, I started with one professional consultant on the team, built that organization.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, fortunately, hired well, you know, we we worked with a subset of our customers, 100% of the customers we work with renewed over the course of five years.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: And the growth rate, the NRR from those customers was 2x, what the NRR was from our core business, because we we knew from the beginning what's the mission?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: The mission is to create these opportunities for success for our customers.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: So then fast forward to Patronics.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, when I joined Patronics, we were an early stage growth business, uh, probably 35, 40 million in revenue, you know, 150, 170 employees.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I was coming to transform the customer success organization that already existed.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: It was professional services, implementations, really, and customer success.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: My predecessor was an awesome person, super smart, knew the industry, knew the business, knew the product.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he was still running the organization as if we were a 10-person startup.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody was scrappy, everybody was doing everything.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we didn't hire experienced people.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: We were only hiring people right out of college because they were less expensive.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and he himself was kind of head support person.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: So if a customer called at 10 o'clock at night on a Saturday looking for urgent help, they got him.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: And he would walk away from whatever family event he had, he would get online, he would fix the problem, he would go away.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: The good thing about that was the customer felt incredibly supported.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: We would call the leader of the department and he would drop everything and get us home.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: The bad news about it was customers said, but why do I have to call that person?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: And what happens when that person's not available?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and oh, by the way, because we're still running this lean, scrappy organization where everybody's doing everything, I inherited a 25% voluntary turnover.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: So customers were like, Yeah, I love it when I call this person and they solve my problem.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I've had three solution consultants in the last nine months.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: What's going on there?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so I really came in to say, how do we take all of the good things that this organization has been over the last 15 years and turn it into something scalable that we can build on?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that that became what I was working on.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: That became the journey.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it meant creating new roles in the organization, kind of decoupling things, asking someone not to be the project manager and the architect and the technical design and the QA engineer, but kind of break those things out.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Same on the customer success side.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: I I worked with my team to build service offerings that were packaged that sales could sell.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: So they had something that they could talk about that made it sound like, hey, we've done this before.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it made the service team more equipped to say, okay, I know what I have to do on this thing.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a bespoke blank whiteboard.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: I know what the scope of work is.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: We actually started doing SOWs, which we didn't have when I joined.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you know, there was really nothing remarkable that I did at Patronics.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: It was like all the things you would expect an experienced chief customer officer to know to do.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it took me three years to evolve the organization, stand up a support team, set up a PMO, bring in actual professional customer success managers, develop a knowledge management and learning organization, develop a digital CS function, um, all the things that just take time.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: You can't do it all at once.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so always with the mindset of Rick Dara, how do we make sure we drive value for our customers while we are doing the right things for our business so that sales can sell easier, we can grow our business faster, we can do it profitably, customers are uh willing to get on stage with us, all those kinds of things.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Wasn't perfect, but that's the progress that we made.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I have so many questions.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I just want to first of all start by saying that I absolutely think what you did was remarkable.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that everybody can do that.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yes, maybe you didn't bring, you know, like a magic wand and you're like, you know, got it done in like three weeks.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody can.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, it really takes a remarkable person to come in, see the vision, see the good and the bad, because somebody else could have just said, you know what?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's the cost of doing business.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: If we want to stay scrappy, you know, we'll just stay like this and may have not changed anything with the organization.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: So just wanting to correct you on that.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: However, you know, I have to give credit to the board and to the leaders on the team uh that I, you know, the leadership team that I joined, right?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because these are people, you know, the the leadership team was largely the founding team.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, you know, they they had to take a step back and say what's working and not working around what we built, and be willing to say there's gotta be a better way to do this.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: And and so they they recognized that and they brought me in and they gave me plenty of space to do the things that I needed to do.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I had experiences in the past where I tried change management and I'd screwed it up royally, and I took those lessons and I applied them here and and all those things.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: I don't mean to not give myself credit, um, but to your point, I didn't have some magic bullet idea that no one else has.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: I I just applied it in a logical way, chipping away at the top priorities and over the course of about three years, getting to that place where we were scalable and ready so that when an exit was coming, our team was prepared and the buying company could look at the organization and say, this is a solid organization worth buying.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you mentioned something that was gonna be my immediate next question is the leadership.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: How do you convince them to come on board for something like this?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because, like you said, I oh and I was gonna assume the same thing, but you already said it.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they're the ones that set that process up to that point.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I'll be honest with you, I think that there's a lot of startups right now that are probably going through a very similar journey because that does not sound like you know something that happened 10 years ago and now it doesn't happen anymore.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a very common mistake.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a common mistake.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: I also think that the moment in time now is a little different, right?
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I talked about at Patronics, one of the things I did was I looked at, I really had two different resources on my team when I joined.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: I had technical consultants who implemented, and I had technical consultants who supported.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: And in each case, the individuals in those roles had to wear multiple hats.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: And you think about on the implementation side, some people are really good at project management, they're not necessarily strong technologists.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Others are really good at being good technologists, they hate the project management side, and we were asking people to do both.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: And same on the other side, on the technical consultants we had supporting our customers, they were asked to be support engineers, they were asked to be strategic technical consultants and technical account managers, they were asked to be customer success managers.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Those are three fundamentally different roles with different DNA.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, as a hiring person, like what makes you good at being a support person, you know, willing to just get hit with case after case after case after case all day long, versus being a CSM sitting down with a CMO and talking about the business.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like those are different skill sets and and different DNA.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, who are we when we show up to work?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so that that I needed to break those things apart.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it did take some selling to the leadership team to explain why, right?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because we had a lean and mean team.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: We were hiring junior people that were frankly inexpensive.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm turning around saying, look, I need to hire some seniors.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: I need to like increase the salary from$70,000 a year to$120,000 a year for a couple of key roles in everybody, because I need those senior people on the team.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I had to explain why and the benefit that we would get.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: It upped our cost, but it also allowed us to stabilize in terms of um turnover, which has costs built into it, right?
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: You three people quit and you've got to hire those people.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: You not only have costs associated with disappointing the customer, uh burning out other people, but then the recruiting costs, calling someone like you and saying, how do we get you know backfill for these roles?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um it and it also allowed for more um process improvement because bringing in these more expensive senior people, they'd seen what great look like before.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: And they could come back and say, okay, here are the three things that we could do differently that actually will mean that I can now work with more customers.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so you don't need as many as me, which you know, then you know helps with that cost.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I think there's a moment in time change where AI is uh creating an environment where we can actually start to bring things back together a little bit.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so think about your customer success manager, who typically may be technology aware, but is not a technologist, right?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: Give that individual some AI, and now all of a sudden they can be some doing some of the things that the TAM is doing.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Similarly, you can have a if it's a very complex product that's being supported, you can bring in a TAM and with AI have that AI help them with some of the CSM things.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that we're gonna come back around where you know the role of a customer success manager, the role of a technical account manager, it's gonna start to shift.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm advocating for a significant shift, um, but some of it will be bringing some of these things back together a little bit in the right circumstances, not in every circumstance.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I think that's one of the changes.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so, as a leader, you have to be prepared to give the business case, right?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you're gonna make a change initiative, you have to be able to.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a whole talk track.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: I speak at Tufts University.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: A friend of mine is a uh a lecturer there, and he brings me in once a semester and he asks me to talk about change management.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it really is about like, what are you doing?
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you doing it?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: What's the benefit to the company?
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: What's the benefit to the individuals?
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then really communicating along the way, making sure that you're getting feedback.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I just put this out there that we need to do X, Y, and Z.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: What are your concerns about that?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: What, what, uh, what worries you?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you, you know, when I went to Patronics, you've been here for 15 years, I've been here for three weeks.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: What do you see as the challenges I'm gonna run into if I try to apply this change and get people involved in the decision so that they see their fingerprints on it?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: And even if the ultimate decision isn't exactly what they recommended, if they feel heard, then they will be more accepting of it.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: And they'll feel more comfortable that if they're concerned, they can come back around and say, Hey, I know we talked about this thing, you went in this way, I know why.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm starting to see this thing over here.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Have you seen that?
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just think it's have a strong plan, have a business case with results, communicate and involve people in the decisions.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: And if you do that, your chance of success goes up exponentially.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that you said that because I agree.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you involve somebody in a decision-making process, now they're part of that decision-making process.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: So when there's challenges, which they're always gonna be, their reaction is more like, okay, how do we fix it versus like, well, you know, you made this decision, so now that's the bet you made that you need to fix.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's a description between leadership.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I love that you said that.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I wanted to say something else.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the things that, like, as I mentioned earlier, when we were in those leadership calls, one of the things that really piqued my interest when you said it is you said that the era of I'm an advocate of customer of your customer success is over.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: Now I would imagine some leaders might put pushback on that.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: What do you feel like is the real problem that like we're solving for right now in customer success?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: So so first of all, I want to say I'm not saying CSMs or customer success people should not be advocates for their customers.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: They should.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: That is the price of admission.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's what gets you in the door.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: What I am saying though is it's not enough.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm saying that in the past, the role of the CSM.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: In particular, has really been kind of this traffic cop around helping customers through whatever their challenges are.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: And the value that the CSMs have provided is I, the customer, know who to call when I need help.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: And the CSM is responsive, they get the right people on the call, they get my issue resolved.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that has value.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: But in this day and age, it's not enough value to do what Rick Dara told me needed to get done.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's not enough value to retain your customers and grow your customers.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: And here's why.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually think like when I was building professional services at Gomez and in every organization, I've always had a mindset on how do we make sure customers actually get value from our products and what are the things that we need to do to make sure that happens.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, and I'm quite certain that my peers, chief customer officers, all will say they do the same thing.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: But at the end of the day, the work that the CSM does is not that.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: And if I really think about like even my Patronics days, who are the people that were sitting down with our biggest customers to have those kind of outcome-driven conversations?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: It was me.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: It was my VP of customer success.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: It was my VP of professional services.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: It was my CEO.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: It was my CRO.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: It was not the people on the ground who are there every single day.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: They're working with the marketing manager or the IT manager, depending on the company.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: And just like keeping the engine going, um, they don't necessarily have access to that CMO or that CTO.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times that because that's because the individual contributor or the, I shouldn't say it that way, the primary point of contact they're talking to doesn't want to give you access because I don't know what you're going to say to that person.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know how you're going to make them successful, right?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so what I'm saying is in this world where AI is fundamentally changing the way software is built and the way work gets done, we've all heard it, right?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: The motes are coming down.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: They I have worked for many software companies where as good as we were, as hard as we worked to make our customers successful, and as great the outcomes were for our customers, for a cohort of customers, I call them the middle cohort.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: The reason they stay is not because we're great.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's because leaving is hard.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're good enough to not deal with the pain of leaving.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: And AI is making it easier for new new companies to come into the market.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you're a 20-year-old, 30-year-old, 40-year-old software company, you should be looking over your shoulder to see where's the AI first company building what you've built, making it easier to install, easier to support, easier to get value out of the product.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: So new entrants coming in the market is a big thing.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then your competition, you know, you might have companies that are like, yeah, we kind of compete.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, at Patronics, we had lots of companies that we were, we called them frenemies, right?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: They're the companies where there's a little bit of competition, but there's some technical partnership.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: Those companies could turn around and say, well, we're going to use AI and just build what Patronics built.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Or we could say, we're going to build what so-and-so built.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: And now all of a sudden, companies, our customers can consolidate their tech stack, which who doesn't want to do that?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: Fewer companies would love it, right?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so in this world where AI is fundamentally shifting the way software is built, the way it's managed, the way it's used, the way we do work, if all you're doing as a customer success team is being an advocate, you will not retain your customers, you will not grow your customers.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be focused on what is the value that this customer needs to renew next year?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you need to look at it at all levels.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a CSM talking to a marketing manager, what does that marketing manager need to be promoted?
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: And what does her boss or his boss need and boss's boss need right up to the CMO?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: What does the CMO need to be able to say to their CEO and the board at budget cycle to say, I spent$60,000 on this product last year.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: I want to spend$70,000 on it this year because they're going to give me a 3% price increase.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: And there's an additional feature that I want to add.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm making the argument because last year we got these measurable business benefits from it.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: We, the CS organization, need to be on the tip of the spear to make sure that that CMO can have that conversation to ensure that we can renew and grow that account.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't believe that the CSMs I have hired over the last 10 years can do that.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: I shouldn't say it that way.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't believe they've been expected to do that.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them can do it, but the system hasn't been set up to enable them to do it.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's so true.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: How are I wanted to dive a little bit deeper on that?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm a CSM right now working under a leadership, and I really agree with you on that, what are some things I should do?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: Whether, well, I mean, there's two ways to look at it as a CSM, and then on a leadership perspective.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm a leader that hasn't implemented that, let's start maybe that way, what are like the first two to three things that I can look at to see where do we stand as an organization and how we can start implementing that?
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I think the first thing is you got to measure what matters and you got to comp people on what matters, right?
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: So what are the KPIs that you're using to measure the success of the business?
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: And how are you comping the members of your team?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not compinging your members, the members of your team on outcomes, then they're not gonna know to drive to outcomes, or they're not gonna see it as a priority because there's something else that they're getting comped on, right?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: So measure what matters and compensate people on what matters.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think those two things are very interconnected.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you've got to have some outcome-based KPIs.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you've got to be looking at, you know, which which percentage of your what percent of your customers are receiving first value?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: What is first value and which percent of them attain first value in the first 60 days after going live?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think too many software companies think first value is launch.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, no, launching isn't value.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's just that just opens the door to allow you to get value.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: So for your implementation team, you know, what first value do they need to enable?
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: And are are they done with their project when the implementation is done or when first value is achieved?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: And if it's when first value achieved, you've got to plan for that.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to be able to document, measure it, plan for it.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: If it's when implementation is done, then you need a mechanism by which the CS team can then pick that up and ensure that first value happens.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: So outcomes-based KPIs are needed.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: I do think that there's a new job description that's needed.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: I wrote a new job description for a company that I did a bit of work for for a few months in the fall and the winter this year that really says, you know, the CSM is a strategic partner and it and it very pointedly talked about working strategically with the business to define outcomes and making sure that you're measuring those outcomes and that you're driving those outcomes.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so, you know, what's the telemetry either in the product or elsewhere that allow you to know that those outcome-based KPIs are being met?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I think I think having having uh CSMs that know that, you know, I I never want to hear a I never want to go to a client meeting again where when we're going around the room and introducing ourselves, the CSM says, My name is Julie, and I'm your advocate.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: They just need to stop like, yes, of course.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: And frankly, anybody who picks up the phone, the salesperson, finance, product, anybody who does has to be an advocate.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Your job is to drive outcomes.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know what?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: I really like what you said, strategic partner.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like customer success name should change to like strategic partner, I don't know, success or something.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: We'll have to start an official petition for this.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: At Patronics, we had um we had a what we called strategy and analytics team that reported to the chief data officer, and then we had customer success and client services that reported to me.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: And the role of the strategy and analytics team to some degree was really that in that their job was to understand the client's business and recommend ways in which they can use the product to achieve their goals.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know that it was always I don't know that the strategists really thought of themselves as a strategic partner the way I'm thinking of this new breed of CSM being a strategic partner.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: But somewhere between like the CSMs I hired and the strategist that team was hired, blend those together up the bar a little bit, give them a different set of goals because that those strategists weren't compensated on did the customer achieve their goals or not.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: They were billable resources to get stuff done and to advise, but they they weren't they weren't compensated on did the advice you give result in you know a 5% increase in in-store revenue for your customer.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I think the behavior is just different when you don't have those components.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: So again, not that they weren't capable of doing it.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: I just don't think the organization is set up for it.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, I have a question for you on that because I think that everything that you're mentioning is also kind of evolving as we're still, you know, in the roles, like as customer success.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: Up until now, I've been, you know, calling myself an advocate.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: This is my you know, A to Z job description that I'm responsible for on a day-to-day basis.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: Is there what are some things that I can do as an individual contributor in my role right now that maybe either now or in the future, when I'm looking for potential new opportunities, I know the market has shifted.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: I know companies now are looking for different types of responsibilities.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I need to showcase my value.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: What are some things that I can do right now to start, you know, cross-functionally putting my hands into other things and really start showcasing this value, even if my company is not necessarily implementing it right now.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that um, first of all, you you got to demonstrate business acumen, right?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like again, it's not enough just to say, you know, I had 25 customers and this amount of AR into management, and my retention rate was 96%.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: And whenever the customer had a problem, I was their advocate and I got it done.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: As a CSM, you need to understand the market you're working in.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: You need to understand the market your customer is working in, you need to understand what success looks like for that customer.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: And you need to be focused on is the thing that they're asking me to do today something that's going to drive success.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think you need to feel comfortable.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like one of the things I say, and I've said this to my customers long before I was in a leadership role.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't think that this is something that I can uniquely say because of the title that I have.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: But I have said to my customers, my job is to tell you what you need to hear, not what you want to hear.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes when I tell you what you need to hear, I'm not going to make you happy.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: However, when I deliver a few times with you, you are going to learn to trust me.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: But know that see when people say customer success's job is to make the customer happy.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's not.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: Customer success's job is to ensure the customer gets value and outcome from the product.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I need to tell you something that's going to make you unhappy to get you there.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think having confidence that you can be that partner and tell customers, you know, look, we decided in January that in six months, we're going to hit this goal together.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: My team has done X, Y, and Z to get there.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: We are stuck right now.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: And we're stuck because your team's not doing this thing, and we're not going to hit this goal if your team doesn't unlock this.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I, as your outcome, strategic outcome person, need to have that hard conversation with you.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: So CSMs needs to, they need to have a strong business acumen.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: They need to understand the market in which we are functioning, in which our customers are functioning.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: And they have to feel comfortable having those hard conversations with customers because if all they do is, I want to make my customer happy.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: I was on site with a customer about a year and a half ago, maybe two years ago.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: We had a customer, I won't name names, um, but our day-to-day person was a direct level person who loved us, would get on stage with us whenever we asked, would post pictures of her kids wearing our swag, loved us.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: We're in this meeting, it's a first meeting with their new CMO and their new CEO.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: My CEO is in the room as well.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: My CS CEO turned to our day-to-day person and said, NPS question on a scale of zero to 10, how would you rate us?
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: She refused to give us a score.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: Why did she refuse to give us a score?
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because she liked us.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: She didn't want to tell us in front of me and my CEO that we were a six on the NPS.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: And she certainly wasn't going to say eight or nine in front of her CEO and CMO because it wasn't true.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: So she wouldn't give us an answer.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so the next breed of CSM needs to get behind the they like me.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: They need to get or get away from that.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: They need to get away from we had a really good meeting.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: It was pleasant.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: And they need to get into the ick.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: They need to get into the ick.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: They need to be able to really understand what is this customer trying to accomplish?
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: And are we enabling them to do that?
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: And if we're not, why?
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: Is it because we're not doing things?
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, put your advocate hat on and go make sure that our business is doing what's needed.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it because they're not doing things?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: Now you need to be a strategic partner, a coach, you need to have the hard conversations with them.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: And in the moment, it ain't gonna feel good and they're not gonna like it, but you need to have the self-confidence to do it.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's a mind shift.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a mind shift in terms of what your role is.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: And again, as a leader, my job is set the North Star, make sure that that is what everybody understands their job is, have the KPIs, have the comp plans, have the job descriptions so that people know.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like your job is different now.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's so good.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think that sometimes we get behind the I want to be liked, and it's liked and trusted.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: And are you driving value for me?
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like I can like you outside of the job.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to be, you know, in the job.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes it's also good that they don't like you, but you're delivering the value and they just can't leave you because of that.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I would much rather a customer who says, you know, Andrea is a giant pain in my ass.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: She's always pushing me to do things that I don't want to do.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: But that pushing is why we grew our business 7% last year.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: That then be like, Andrea is so pleasant, she makes me feel so good every day.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I love talking to her on the phone, but we only grew 2% last year.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like now we have a switch under right.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm overstating when I say I don't care if they're happy.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: Of course I care if they're happy.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: But happiness and outcomes are not the same.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes the path to outcomes doesn't feel good, and we just need to be honest with each other about like what's working and not working.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, I shut at Patronics, I shut down a project completely because my predecessors set it up incorrectly.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: There was no path we were going to be successful.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: All we were gonna do is piss off our customers, and boy, did I piss them off when I said we're stopping work, yeah.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: But we ended up coming to a really good outcome, and the customer is still with Patronics, and they trusted me, they hated me for a period of time, but then they trusted me.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so good.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I would love to switch our focus a little bit more in terms of like customer success by company stage and maybe even employee numbers to make it a little bit easier.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: But um, if I'm you know starting from zero, right?
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like zero to 10 employees, what should I do as a leader coming in?
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what does the person need or sorry, what does the company need out of that person?
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: We've talked about it a little bit already, uh Arby, in that like it's that scrappiness, right?
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: If you're 10 people in a company, every single person, including the founder, CEO, is as much individual contributor as they are leader.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so if you if you're if you're someone who's grown up in growth stage or mature companies who's curious about going to a startup and you join a startup as a senior member of the team, you you will be very sad if you think you're gonna come in on day one and build a whole bunch of process and that's what you at the end of the day.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you just need to get stuff done.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've been in leadership roles at startups where I've spent 50, 60% of my time as head consultant on a project because I was the one who had the knowledge and experience to do it, or maybe it was the very first time we were doing this kind of project, and so I needed to run through it the first time so I could develop it so that I could train my team to do the next one and the next one.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then I've spent the other 40, 50% of my time managing the team, dealing with escalations, you know, that sort of thing, you know, and maybe that was 30, 40%, and then it's like 10, 20% as a member of the leadership team thinking about what's our strategy, how are we gonna grow?
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you need to spend time as a leadership team thinking about the growth strategy for sure, but at the end of the day, work needs to get done, and there's only 10 of you.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: So you're gonna do some of the work, you're gonna be, you know, building PowerPoints and doing discovery and writing SOWs and writing deliverable documents because you just need to get it done.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not 40 hours a week either.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, think about that.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I like that you described it that way because at the end of the day, I mean, it is what it is, and it takes a I won't say a special person to do it because I think anybody can do it, but you would want to want to do it.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that's what makes you special, right?
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: I I do believe that there are big company people and small company people and stuff like that.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: I often use I often use my husband as an example.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: My husband, he excels in larger organizations where he has a specific role and he does it incredibly well and he's incredibly passionate about it and he works really hard at it.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't think that he would love the world that I'm in, either at a startup or growth stage, where every day is a little different.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're jumping into things that are not part of your and and that's not to say someone at a big company doesn't get outside their lane.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: I hate that saying, stay in your lane, but they they do, but it's not it's not like it's the thing that you are doing every single day, that context reaching where it's like you're working 60 hours a day and you go into your day thinking you get these 10 things you're gonna do, and the shit hits the fan.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I I swear.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: No, you're right.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: And and you you don't do any of that stuff because you're doing what in a larger company would be somebody else's job, but there's only 10 of you, so it's your job.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I do I do think that there again, DNA.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: I do think that there are people that are just naturally born to be in startup or early growth stage businesses, and other people who are just naturally born to be in larger growth stage or mature companies, some people can span them, you know.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: Gail Goodwin, yeah, founder CEO of Constant Contact, she's rare, you know.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: Mark Zuckerberg, rare, right?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: These people who can live with the company from startup all the way through IPO and beyond.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, most of us have a sweet spot.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think my sweet spot is really kind of that growth stage.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I totally agree on the hiring side too.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, dealt with leaders, and I understand, you know, I literally tell everybody the same thing is if he if this challenges excite you, then you are this type of person.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: If they don't, then you are more like this type of person.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right, right.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I wanted to ask, okay, so now we're in the one to 10, you know, we're very scrappy, we're rolling our sleeves up, you know, when needed, getting to work, and then the next day switching over to leadership.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: What happens at like that, maybe the 50, 250 employee stage in terms of a leadership?
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how do things change?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: That that's where I was when I joined Patronics, you know, we were about 150, 170 employees.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: I had a team of 40 in um client services across implementations and customer success.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and that was really where I had to have some frameworks and some models.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like I talked about before, right?
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I started working with the team to understand more about like what is actually the work that gets done in these projects?
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: How do we create some structure?
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: What's the framework that we want to build?
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I really think of like repeatable delivery frameworks as an 80-20 rule.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: What's the 80% of the work?
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then some companies it might be 60 or 70, but you know, what's the 80% of the work that will get consistently done the same way from project to project to project to project?
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get that documented, let's get that, you know, some structure, some tools, some templates, some workflows.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe today we can actually get some of that stuff automated with AI.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: And what's the 20% that really is unique from customer to customer and have your human resources really focused on that?
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you give them a structure that says, this is your work breakdown structure, these are the templates that you use.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, by the way, here's the chunk that we really need you to turn the brain on, get creative, dig in with this customer, understand their business, understand their goals, and tailor it to them.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the types of things that I look to do in those organizations that are in that 50 to 100, 150 service offerings, repeatable delivery frameworks.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: Again, go back to the early days of patronics, kind of that separation of work responsibilities, um, so that you can have, like I had, you know, like I said, I had people that were being asked to project manage who hated project management.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I had people who loved project management who hated the tech side.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I just broke that out.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, okay, you're gonna be the project manager on 10 projects, and you're gonna be the implementation consultant working with that project management, and all you need to do is focus on implementing.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: And people stuck around.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: We went from people staying one to two years to staying five, six, seven years because they loved the work that they did.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: So figuring out what are the roles that you need in the business and starting to break that out.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then the KPIs and measuring, measuring what matters.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Making sure that we are actually tracking the things that are important.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: I implemented time tracking.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: It was not something people were happy with me about.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: They weren't.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: Talk about a change management problem.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because everybody felt unfortunately I joined right before the paint the pandemic.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: It was my intention to put in time tracking when I learned during the interview process.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't there.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: But then the pandemic happened and people were thought that I was big brothering them.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I had to go through a huge change management exercise and talk to people regularly.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I had to show them how I was using the data.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, using data by instinct, having frameworks on how work gets done, making sure that you have the right roles in place, having the KPIs in place, starting to build that structure, but still at 15 to 50 to 150 employees, you're still a pretty small company and you still need scrappiness and you still need people who are willing to raise their hand and say, I know it's not my job, but I'm gonna go do that.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there are still times when I would get on calls with clients at 10 o'clock at night.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Now I wasn't doing the same work my predecessor was doing, but I couldn't just be like, oh, I'm the CCO, I don't, you know, I don't do that.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so you start to build in this structure and this this framework on how work will get done, looking for repeatability wherever you can, but the scrappiness still has to be there.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: You can't let go of that, not at that stage.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: And let's just say I am such an amazing leader.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: I did all of this, and now we've grown our company to 300 plus.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: How does CS leadership change at that point?
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's it, I think it's a progression over time.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: So some of these things you're doing at all levels anyway, but I think it's at that point you're enabling and empowering your team, you know.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so like when I joined Patronics, I had some really young leaders that were reporting to me.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I had to kind of teach them how to be CS leaders.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, by the time you get to 300 employees, 400 employees, 500 employees, you really need those leaders to know what they're doing.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, and that's not to say that you would never be in a situation where you don't have a rising star that you promote into a leadership role maybe a little bit before they're ready and you have to get them up there.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: But you need to have the system to make that happen quickly and you need to be able to rely on them.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: So as I moved through my time at Patronics, you know, I went from being extremely hands-on with clients in projects, joining weekly meetings, to I only got involved when the three layers of management or two layers of management between the individual contributor and me, you know, were really needed, you know, like it wasn't working and they needed me to come in, or it was like our biggest customer, right?
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so having a leadership team that could stand up on their own and do the things that I had been doing two years ago is really important.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it, but but that's my responsibility to make sure that I build that and hiring the right people.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and again, just refining those processes.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: I still think a three, four, five hundred-person company is still pretty small.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: So scrappiness is still part of what we need.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: We're not 6,000 employees.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so scrappiness, I always find myself working in companies where scrappiness is core to what is needed.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's who I am, it's what I like to be.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where I land.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say I can tell your eyes light up when you say that because I enjoy that.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and so I think, but I think you you need to be able to start to rely more on your leaders and uppercase L and lowercase L, right?
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like yeah, I believe that leaders and managers aren't necessarily the same.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you want managers who are leaders, but not all managers are leaders and not all leaders are managers.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so figuring out that right balance of who are your uppercase L leaders, who are your lowercase L leaders, and empowering them to make decisions closer to the customer.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I again back at Patronics, I had uh one of our larger customers who, you know, on one day they would say, you know, we're frustrated, we don't talk to the leadership anymore.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: And they meant uppercase L.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then on, you know, we would auto, we would correct and we would be in their face all the time.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then they'd say, we're frustrated.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: We feel like there's no bench behind the leaders.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you sort that out, right?
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: How do you make sure that your customers know there's a very strong bench, even at the individual contributor level, that those individuals know it is needed.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: They have they're empowered to make the decisions, they're empowered to deal with the issues, they have the escalation path they need, but there's also the right level of visibility from the VPC suite where we're necessary so customers know they're not forgotten about.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: They are strategic and critical to the business and that they will get the attention that they need.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so good and so true.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I wanted to shift.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: I can't believe how time literally has just flown by.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to shift to our to our last section before we run out of time.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, these are rapid-fired questions, but you don't have to answer them fast.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's just on my end.
• 48:54
  unknown: All right.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: What is one tool that you can live without right now?
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: Claude.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: Claude's my best friend.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: I will say though, it was making me mad yesterday.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what was happening.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: It was taking more than five seconds to respond to me.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, why are you taking 15 seconds?
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: I I also get frustrated with Claude and will yell at Claude from time to time, but but generally, yeah, like there's very little I do today where I'm not.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: I use some of the other AI tools, but mostly I mean, I've built a system in Claude, so that's Claude knows me best.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'll also give a plug for a product called Bordy, Bordy.ai, uh, which is a it's what LinkedIn should be, frankly.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so in terms of you know networking and uh meeting new people and having interesting conversations about what's happening in the market, Bordy is something I'm using every single day.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, love that.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: I might have to check that out.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, because everybody says an AI tool.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I figured I'd throw something else in that's not AI.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: That is true.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, of course.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um okay, what is the your biggest growth level for lever for SaaS in 2026?
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd love to keep a customer success focused if you can.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: Outcome-driven CS.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: Making this change from from I am your advocate to I am your strategic outcome driver is the mission critical thing that needs to happen in 2026, 2027 for SaaS businesses to protect themselves from what is happening in the market with AI and to grow their businesses.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: What is one belief you have that most people would disagree with?
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't I don't know if they'll disagree necessarily, but I'm gonna say it anyway.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much hype over AI.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: In my opinion, AI is a tool.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, when when things were shifting from Lotus Notes to Excel or when people were starting to use SQL, you weren't like, oh my god, I'm using SQL, and that's a value proposition to my business.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: Somehow AI has become a value proposition to your business, and we can see firsthand the number of companies that are actually failing to use AI in an efficient way.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: The story of Ford firing what 350 employees because AI was going to start doing work, and then AI couldn't do the work, so they hired those employees back.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like AI is a tool.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it is a game-changing tool.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we have not yet figured out what that really means.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: And there's concern about what AI can do on its own and what AI, you know, how it can supplement humans, and when will we no longer need humans and all that?
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: I get all of that, but it's a tool, and we need to focus on how as a business we're adding value to our customers.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, where can AI help with that?
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: But it's a tool.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think it comes down to like how people are trying to sell it, you know, and yeah, you've obviously seen them.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen everything, everybody's seen them to where it's like, oh, replace your entire this with AI.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it sounded very sexy.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you're telling me I can replace my entire sales team and drop my cost from this to like less than, you know, whatever, 50%, yeah, I'm gonna give it a shot.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, you kind of get hit in the face with like with a brick wall, and it's like, oh, wait, you're it's not doing what you told it to do.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like what's happening.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: I I was at um primary ventures, uh, the PE firm, um PC firm actually, they run a program called On the On the Business, which is a for female executives.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: Cassie Young, who's one of the general partners, leads it.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: And she had one, I think two weeks ago yesterday, uh in Boston.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: And we were talking about AI a lot.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: And she said, you know, everybody thinks that they can build their own CRM with AI until they get their first security breach, and then everybody will be back to Salesforce and HubSpot and all that kind of stuff, right?
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: And if I think about Patronics, Patronics used AI in our product for seven years before everybody was talking about AI.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: We never once put on the slide we're using AI.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: We just talked about win back campaigns and all the different things that was a capability in the product that had value to growing revenue within these restaurant chains.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: Behind the scenes, we were using AI to do it.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then something happened in 2003, and all of a sudden, all of our markitecture says AI, AI, AI.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_02: We've been doing it for seven years.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: That the security breach, or I will add, you know, trying to create like some sort of a workflow or whatever that looks like on your end, and then it breaks, and then you don't even know where the hell to go to fix it.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_00: Don't even know.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_00: I I saw a post from someone in my network yesterday who uh uses AI like crazy.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: She's a customer success consultant, and she talked about how she set the AI to go do something for her while she was sleeping and she came back.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: And AI has spent about$1,500 in tokens because it just went down this rat hole of trying to do like like she never told the AI when to quit.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, if you don't get an answer this time, stop.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_00: So all night long it's going, it's going as long as it's going to be able to write a check for$1,500.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, it's crazy.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: I will say, you know, in one of those leadership classes that you and I were a part of, um, we had some break rooms at one point and we were talking about like AI and implementing AI.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: And uh one of the leaders said, you know, guys, to be completely transparent, we literally stopped using AI as much because tokens were getting so expensive and more expensive than humans, basically.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_01: So we went back to hiring somebody.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: So we went back to hiring because of that.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, yeah, I agree.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: This with somebody who um was talking to someone at Deloitte, and Deloitte is all in hiring interns and um folks right out of college, like first job people, because they see that if we don't do that, when the folks of my generation retire, there's no one with the context needed to do the work anymore.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so they yeah, they've said, look, AI is important, but we're not gonna stop hiring interns and we're not gonna stop hiring kids right out of college because we need them to learn the business so that in five years, 10 years, 20 years, they can be our next leaders.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so yeah, so good.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, speaking of hiring, do you have a biggest hiring mistake you've made and maybe what did it teach you?
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: We all do, right?
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the the biggest hiring mistake I think is not trusting my instinct.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so on unfortunately, more than one occasion, I've I found myself in a situation where I had an open slot that I needed to fill.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: I was struggling to find the person that was really perfect for the job.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: I questioned a candidate, like, can they really do this?
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: Can they really not do this?
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I decided to move forward with the candidate because I talked myself into what won't be that big of a problem.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I was wrong.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: In one case, it was uh the individual, I brought this person back three different times because the the person kept saying, We did this and we did that.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I wanted to know what I did, what did he do?
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I could never get there.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I felt confident in the interview process that he was book smart, right?
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: He knew what he could articulate verbally what good looked like.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: What I never felt confident in was he had done it.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so, in a moment of I just need someone in the role, I hired him because he could articulate it.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: And within six months, I fired him because he just couldn't execute.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then, similar example, I was hiring someone into a leadership role, and my concern with that person was, can they manage up?
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_00: As I was in the conversation with the person, I just got this feeling that they were a really good leader of people and could manage down, but I didn't have a strong sense that they could manage up.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: And part of managing up, like there's there's an execution component to that.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: And when I did background checks and reference checks, I asked that question and I got answers, like, yeah, they can do that, but it wasn't a resounding yes.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I hired the person, and that person worked for me for a couple of years, but but the big challenge I had was was execution, understanding where they were with the business, way over empathizing with the day-to-day lives of their people and not being part of the leadership team to change it.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and in both cases, it was a it was a sense of I just need someone in the seat.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that's the deliberation.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the lesson is it's way more costly to hire the wrong person now than to wait and hire the right person tomorrow.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I I hear you on that.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's unfortunately very common, and at the end of the day, you're dealing with people, it's so hard to be a good judgmental, you know, judge of people and really understand.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_01: You get a short amount of time to figure that out, yeah.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you do have a very short amount of time to figure it out, yes.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_01: And this is gonna be a whole other podcast, but um, typically, I mean, is why I recommend a minimum of four interviews and at least two touches directly with the hire manager because on that first one, I mean, you still got like those interview jitters, and like, you know, you're trying to showcase your best self, but maybe by the second or third time, you know, those kind of nerves have gone away and you really truly start seeing that person's personality and you know what they really are.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, you start joking around, they they start getting friendly, and then you really showcase, you know, the personality, and it's like, okay, either I like them or I don't, right?
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, or the other piece of that too is if if if I interview a person for a role on my team, just to do that first qualify, okay, yep, I think this person looks like, smells like the right type of person, and then I have that person meet other folks, and then they meet with me again, they now have more context and I can get a better sense of the questions they're gonna ask me based on that context.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, if they don't, if if they come back to that meeting and I say, okay, what questions do you have?
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, nope, I learned everything I know.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_00: That person's probably not getting the job because how do you know that what you heard from those individuals is aligned with what I'm thinking as the senior leader?
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: This is your opportunity to pressure test that.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're coming onto my team and I'm saying, I need you to be an outcome driver, you need to be consultative, you need to ask the same question at different people multiple times, and you need to validate what you heard with the hiring manager.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_00: So if I was interviewing for a job, I wouldn't accept a job without talking to the hiring manager more than once because I know I'm gonna learn stuff along the way and come back with more questions.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, 100%.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we're we're honestly right at time, a little bit above.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to end it with the last question.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_01: What is the number one skill set you think that CS, you know, ICs or leaders or both should have right now in, you know, in the world we're living in?
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh, we've talked about it a lot here, right?
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's that ability to understand the business, the market you're working in, and really like be be a pusher, be a strategic pusher of customers.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: And and I'm gonna use the word advocate differently.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes being an advocate is not just, oh, you asked me to go do this, I'll go do it.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually pushing you, it's holding you accountable.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's saying, hey, Mr.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_00: or Miss Customer, we talked about X, Y, and Z as an outcome you were driving for.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm concerned we're not gonna get there because I'm not seeing A, B, and C from your team.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's advocacy, guys.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_00: But that's just a different kind of advocacy that you have to have a lot of self-confidence to do.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that that business acumen and ability to push customers the right way to help them get where they need to be.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not comfortable doing that, if you're not comfortable having those hard conversations, I don't see how you succeed in this new model of customer success going forward.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I love that.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Angera, for coming on and just sharing all of your value.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_01: This was honestly so, so good.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_01: If you're we're listening to this live, make sure to go back and listen to the podcast.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe bring on your note taker because there's so many tactical, literally value here that you can just write down and implement as a leader or as an IC, you know, literally right away.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, where can they connect with you if they wanted to, you know, stay in touch or have a conversation or whatever that looks like?
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and probably the easiest thing to do is find me on LinkedIn.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's Andrea Mulligan Carlson.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_00: I go by Andrea Mulligan, but legally I'm Carlson.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_00: So find me on LinkedIn, connect me on LinkedIn.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm happy to grab time with people.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you again for coming.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_01: It was great talking to you more and diving into your brain.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate you.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, everybody have a good day.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_01: Bye all the time.