Latest / Beyond The Trailhead / Angry Pika CEO/Founder Shaun Durkee | Beyond the Trailhead Podcast Ep. 25
Transcript
- speaker-0: All right, everyone, welcome back to Beyond the Trailhead. We've got a great close friend of mine guest today on the podcast. And without further ado, I want to talk to him. He's out in Montana and we met a while back. He has an amazing company. I'll let him tell you a little bit more about it. But we have Sean on here from Angry Pica Foods and which used to be ⁓ Alpenfuel and They did the switch over a little while back and I'll have him tell that whole story on probably why they had to do that change and ups and downs of that change. ⁓ Yeah, so go ahead and tell me like what your company does, what your product is. I know what it is, cause I eat it all the time. So I guess I kind of ruined it by saying what, that it's a food, but go ahead and just tell us about you and then how long you guys have been around. speaker-1: Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. Again, we've been around since 2000 and we started out as a, I guess I was in the manufacturing here in Bozeman, Montana and decided that I wanted to start my own business. So we started out selling other people's backpacking food as an online store and we didn't make food back in the beginning. We were just a side hustle while I worked for a manufacturing company. And eventually. ⁓ at the beginning of COVID, I got laid off and decided to go full time with our business. So we went all in and created our own backpacking meal recipes. We started with four flavors of backpacking granola and grew that to six recipes. And it eventually introduced trail cookies, but we make super high calorie gluten-free products and we've been doing it since, since 2000. speaker-0: Awesome. mean, I, I know from personal experience that it tastes amazing. I can't remember how we met. If I had just kind of reached out maybe on Instagram or something like that. ⁓ a few years ago, I was going, yeah, I think that's what it was. I was going on a trip and I kind of reached out to you, ⁓ on Instagram and stuff like that. And I love high calorie meals because then you, usually it's high calorie and it's denser and you don't have to have so much crazy packaging. ⁓ and everything else with your packaging, which is great. Cause most of the time, I'm kind of going straight into the deep end of your product, but it's packaged really, really well. And it doesn't have to have those huge packages that we're all used to where you feel like you're just wasting space and everything else. So kind of how long did it take you to develop your product? speaker-1: Yeah, great question. So my background is a industrial engineer. I'm in manufacturing. I was looking for different ways to be efficient. And so my engineering side came out in the product development. And then ⁓ with my wife, she helped really bring the flavors to life and helped on the actual food taste side. But I helped develop kind of the checklist that needs to be Super tasty, nutritious. We need lots of calories per ounce. The packaging has to be small. And this is all based on my experience in the field, right? What I wanted and what I felt was lacking in the market. We wanted something where you could use hot or cold water, lots of nuts to get the macros up. So we have high, high calories, which are product of, of a really good macros with the fat calories, or excuse me, protein and carbs. got those where we wanted them with the help. of a endurance athlete coach here in Montana. So we really got the recipes dialed in. I'd say it took us a few months to develop those, send them out to people to get feedback. And then we just navigated the food license portion and found a commercial kitchen that we could rent to produce out of. So from the time I walked out of the door of my manufacturing job was July 3rd, 2020. then... We launched our first four flavors in November of that year. So that was, I guess how long it took there. speaker-0: Yeah. So was it, because I know talking to enough people now that there's a difference between maybe what you and your food is compared to someone who's maybe dealing with like meats and doing dehydrating and stuff like that. did it take a, is it the same type of license, like food license versus people who do like the freeze dried stuff or is it like a quicker process because your, your food is a little different? speaker-1: Yes. Our food has the minimal amount of, we need a wholesale license and a retail license, and then we're good to go. So we're still getting inspected by the sanitarian and everything we do is up to code, but it's, anytime you introduce meat, then your facility just needs to look different. You need high temperature dishwashers. You need ⁓ all the ranges. and the venting systems over that, may need fire suppression. And then if you're going to across state lines in the wholesale world, then you need, perhaps might need a department of livestock inspector there when you package to make sure that everything you're doing is up to code. there's a tremendous amount of cost expense and we stayed as simple as possible. Let's stay in our niche where speaker-0: you speaker-1: We wanted to dominate the breakfast, the granola world there. so we, most companies would say, let's do a breakfast scrambler and one or two granola meals, but focus on entrees. we took the opposite approach. We wanted super high calorie foods and plenty of options so that if you're either backpacking on a weekend or all the way up to doing a 15 day hunt in Alaska, that we've got enough flavor and variety to keep you satisfied. speaker-0: Yeah. I mean, it tastes awesome. I mean, my favorite is doing it with hot water and my wife actually likes cold water. So I like the fact that the option is there. And the good thing is too, like I know with your meals, I think it's only maybe at least for the ones that I know of it's like maybe half a cup of water. So it's not like you need a crazy amount of liquid. Am I right? Is it a half a cup? speaker-1: Right, let's. Yes, I've kept on all of them. speaker-0: Yeah, so we were, my wife and I were in Alabama Hills and we were eating breakfast and there was nowhere to get water and we didn't bring enough water at first because we didn't realize, hey, there's no water. We should have realized it, but we didn't realize there was any water around even though we were car camping, we could have drove into town. And I was like, well, I can make this other meal that's a cup and three quarters or I can make this meal, which is half a cup. So I was like, oh, let's make this meal. Cause again, and I like, desserts and sweet stuff. So I like your meals too, because it's like I'm eating dessert sometimes when I'm eating it. ⁓ And I'm actually gonna be doing a race soon and I'm going to be using that to eat in the morning times on my ultra marathon. Because I'm finding it sits well in my stomach versus the other foods that I eat, you know, feel really, really heavy. Whereas yours is a lot more simple, like the way you said, that's like with the nuts and stuff like that. It's a simple food for me to eat. if, and I think you would come out with the cookies, you have some cookies as well. You came out with maybe like a, is it like a year, year and a half ago? speaker-1: Yes, January 2024 we launched the cookie lineup. speaker-0: Okay. And then how did you get, how did you go from doing the granola and the breakfast to going to cookies? Was it just like, Hey, I want to do a cookie or were people asking for it or? speaker-1: No, we wanted, once we got the six flavors of the granola, we thought what's next? We feel like something's missing from our product lineup. We looked at going into the dinner meals and decided the cost was pretty prohibitive there to do it ourselves. And if you have those co-packed, then it's a pretty high expense as well. So we thought what's something we can do, a product that might be missing from the market that we can. that we can do well with our existing equipment, maybe cross over some of the ingredients that we already have just to be more efficient. And snacks came immediately to mind. We actually dabbled with a couple of different snacks and we never really landed on anything that was working. They, couldn't get the texture correct. ⁓ it felt like the market in the bar world was pretty saturated. And then we were. speaker-0: Meal Bar Ideas? speaker-1: getting some customers that were requesting some type of a breakfast cookie, something high calorie in that world. So there's not many trail cookies at all. mean, there's obviously everything from Chips Ahoy to the monk pack cookies, these different protein cookies, but they're not very durable. And so my, cookie project, once we decided on cookies, we went to a trade show in Montana where we were sampling them and we made little cookies. The original idea was to make a larger cookie that was kind of a meal replacement, but in cookie form. in taking these little samples to the show, everyone we asked said, no, just keep them this size. This is perfect. We just want a pouch of them. We can share with our kids. We can take them on chairlift skiing. So on. that's what we stuck with. And then my wife spent several months really getting the gluten-free recipe dialed in and the texture and the consistency where you can take them. in your pack for a few weekends in a row perhaps and not have them all apart. But then when you go to eat them, they're still soft enough to chew. speaker-0: Yeah. No, I mean, they're, really, really good. I, I, know I have your, I have your meals in the background here and with the old packaging and I don't have any cookies left because I eat those really, really fast. So they're easy to snack on. then my kids, when I opened them up, they started grabbing them and stuff like that. so when you were, ⁓ when you were, I guess, building your business, I love to ask people kind of, ⁓ you know, what was a really good thing that happened in your business? I know people like to have your product in stores and stuff like that. I know, guess you were talking about earlier, I guess I'm going backwards, but with food and you saying I had to go state by state if it had meat and stuff like that. So I know you sell in Canada. was it easy to get your product to be able to be sold in Canada because of the type of meal that you made versus making something else with milk or eggs and all that stuff? speaker-1: to. Good question. We have a really good distributor in Canada that helped us negotiate ⁓ all of that hard work, I guess. So they do all of our importing for us. And so that's been a tremendous help. If we were pushing meat into Canada, I think we'd run into more issues. So the fact that our product lines are pretty simple is in our favor. speaker-0: Yeah. mean, you go, market a lot to, guess, what would you say your, biggest market is? Is it hunting versus backpacking or what would you say your percentages are right now anyways? speaker-1: I think over, I'd say somewhere between 50 to 60 % of our market is hunting. I think that comes from when we started out our business, some of our early dealers, the first dealer we ever got was the recommendation of one of our Instagram followers. He knew the buyer at Govment. So they're a large e-commerce dealer. So we got in with the hunters there and then I have a hunting background. So we were able to get on a few hunting podcasts and drive the narrative that way a little bit. And then attended hunting shows in the beginning as well. So we, we feel like a premium product, like our, our granolas are a little bit more expensive than say backpackers pantry, because there's more, more value there, more energy there. And that's really resonated well in the hunting community. then ⁓ one thing led to another. We. We supported a few guide organizations who we offer a guide and pro staff discount. So yeah, we're, we're, ⁓ doing well in the hunting world, but then there's other ultra light backpacking websites and forums and, ⁓ connections that we've had that have worked out in our favor as well. I'd say the hunting world is a big segment of our market, but we also sell a lot through just general outdoor stores. speaker-0: Yeah. Okay, cool. And what was like, probably your biggest like, yes, this is working kind of moment when you first started? Was it was like a big sale? Or was it just people saying to you at trade shows how much they loved it? Kind of what was like a wow moment for you? speaker-1: Good question. There's usually one that comes along every three to six months that reminds us why we get low. It's the roller coaster of small business, but occasionally we'll get a win like that. The first one was getting that contract with Go Hunt. We sent them samples and they said, this is awesome. Let's do this. So getting a larger dealer right out of the gate for us was a huge confidence boost. And then our initial sale, went well and people responded well to those first four flavors. I think, yeah, going, it's, it's affirming to go to trade shows and actually get food in people's mouths and, get their reaction. So that's pretty gratifying. And, ⁓ yeah, every so often though, we need a boost and, and hopefully one comes along that can help push us down the road a little further. speaker-0: No, no, I feel you. I, cause I went with you to the Western Hunting Expo, right? Last year, I think it was the last year or the beginning of this year in Utah. And so I helped you out at the booth for a little bit and stuff like that. And I was able to hand out samples to people and it was cool to see them try it out because I was a believer. So it was easy for me to hand it out. Like I do, I do bridal shows cause I do wedding photography too. And I love doing the Brado shows because I watch them come up and then they get to see the pictures. But then occasionally I'll have a past bride that will bring one of their friends to the Brado show and they'll run into us. And next thing you know, they'll be like, they're a believer in us. And then next thing you know, they're shouting us out to everybody around us saying they have to hire us. And I think it's your product's really cool because you get instant like feedback from people when they're trying out your food versus let's say someone would buy a sleeping pad or something like that until they take it out on trail. You don't really hear anything about it, but you can, get that instant feedback of people, people trying and stuff like that. So, and I know that feeling like when you get that really, that good win, then you go, ⁓ cool, we're doing it. And then you have those like lows and you're like, man, why am I doing what I'm doing? You know, so ⁓ for me, this is the time of. this part of the season is a lot of family pictures, engagement shoots, because the fall leaves. So this is like a big wind time for me. And then January comes and everybody's done with Christmas and everything. No one's really doing anything in January, spending any money. And so you're just sitting there going, why am I, why am I here? Until the flowers come out and everybody starts to want to get married again. So, ⁓ so if you could say, I guess now we've done the wind, like what was one? And I kind of know the one that I'm thinking of, but maybe you have a different one. What's like an ⁓ crap moment in your business that you were like, ⁓ this sucks. This is really going to be hard. How are we going to come through this kind of thing that, that maybe you kind of came through on the upswing or you can kind of mention it people. speaker-1: Yeah, there's been plenty of those. I would say one of the largest ones was when we were trying to move into our commercial kitchen. So we had put money down to get our new kitchen designed. We had identified where it was going to be in a new development, 1700 square feet. had a pending contract with our distributor in Canada that really gave us enough confidence to make the leap. And we were pitching our our products and our kitchen idea to a few different investors. Some that we knew better than others, but we essentially had to make a decision by say end of day Monday. This was the summer of 23, maybe in a June day. so it was, we had pitched to everyone and it was kind of crickets and we weren't really sure we'd put some money down, like I said, to help get this designed. All we needed was someone to believe in us and help us take that step. Starting the commercial kitchen's not a cheap venture and we'd put all of our own money into it that we could at the time. So I got a call at 10 o'clock that night and someone saying, all right, we're in. so that was... I was afraid that we were going, that was two or three years into it that we would have to shut down if I didn't get that phone call the next day where we're done, right? I mean, there's no path forward. We can't stay in a rented space and we can't move into a new kitchen and buy all of the ovens and the ducting and all of the things that we need, the bulk ingredient purchases. that was one. The last... ⁓ crap moment that happened was about a year ago in October. That was when I had a bombshell dropped in my inbox from a lawyer. And so they were, they were mentioning at the time our name was Alpenfuel. And so this was a cease and desist letter from a lawyer who said that he was representing a brand out of the UK who shared one of the words in our name at the time. And he said, we've trademarked this word, you cannot use it. You must abandon your name and abandon your website or else we'll, you know, as a threat essentially, otherwise they'll be facing legal action. So we decided very quickly, this is a serious threat. We talked to multiple lawyers within a two day timeframe, one in Washington, one in Montana. And the advice they gave us after reviewing the case and the letter from this lawyer was that we either had to quit or rebrand. We didn't have any recourse. So because we shared one word, they'd had a trademark since the seventies on that word. And we both sold food in the breakfast space, ours being a different market totally to backpackers, theirs being pantry use, it didn't matter. And again, we created the name back when we didn't even sell our own food. So ⁓ there was no harm meant on our part, but that doesn't matter from the legal point of view. So we figured out how expensive it would be to rebrand and approached one of our historic investors and figured out a course forward. And we're still charging that course, I guess we're speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: one year into it and we're unfortunately paying legal bills at $500 an hour to help clean up and move past this. had a settlement that we had six months to sell through our existing inventory, which we sold through about 90 % of it. So that was a positive, but then you have to buy all new packaging and essentially everything with your label on it, whether it's business cards to website to... speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: wholesale brochures, everything. We still haven't changed this side of our business, but we're in the process of reinventing ourselves and trying to go forward. So, It's been a long year. speaker-0: Yeah. I mean, I can't imagine. I remember when you told me that story, I was like, I can't imagine getting that, that letter and just being like, okay, now I have to change everything. Like we did, we did something similar. Thank goodness we didn't have to have what you had happened where someone told us we had to cancel, stop using that name and everything else. We did our own rebrand from, it was just my name to Oberst imagery. It wasn't that far off, but You don't know until you do the rebrand, right? How much you have to change. You think it's just a few logos and stuff. And then next thing you know, you're like, ⁓ I had to change this and this. And you're going through all kinds of headache and stuff like that. And then you have that gut feeling of are people even going to remember who you are after a while? You know, cause there's only so much that you can redirect to your website before you have to kind of flick the switch and stop redirecting and everything. So. But I'm like, I love the new logo and the new brand. I love it because it just screams fun, you know, more and stuff like that. and am I wrong in saying that like you design a lot of that too, right? speaker-1: I designed all of the first iteration under Alpenfuel. I did not design the logo, but I designed the packaging. And this time around, we thought I don't, I work outside the business generally in the winters and this happened in October. ⁓ It also happened two weeks before we were going to pitch Walmart, which is another story, but we, yeah, we. got into the weeds with it and decided, look, I think we're better off doing, we can do a better job with someone else's help. So we looked online at different food packaging and I found a designer out of Anchorage, which he fit the bill perfectly. He was able to do incredible work and at value and quickly for, so he checked all of our boxes and we got him engaged right away. We kicked around different names and this one was, I think the speaker-0: And speaker-1: most memorable and the funniest. It is also the most polarizing, but we decided why not be old, geeky with it. We don't want to get into another trademark war in the future. This one's pretty free and cool, so let's stick with this. speaker-0: Yeah, I'm sure after you had that happen, I'm sure no matter what design came through, I'm sure you were like doing so much deep digging just to make sure you didn't ever have to have that headache happen again. Cause I, that would, I mean, that would, that would suck. would be interested to see how often now that we're talking about how often companies run into that from big corporations kind of saying, Hey, you can't use this thing. That's not necessarily anywhere near it, but yet they just use their giant overlording power status to kind of say, hey, they have the money to keep fighting versus us who we can't really just keep fighting unless there's like a discrepancy between the two names, you know what I mean? So, well, a good on you for changing it and designing it all and everything else. It looks good. And ⁓ I love your Instagram posts when you're always like posting little angry Picos and stuff like that. Now when I see them on trail too. I always think of your food. So I think it actually worked out really well. Cause I'm always like, there's a pika. He's screaming at me and I'm like, ⁓ he's an angry pika. And then I'm like, ⁓ I'm hungry. so yeah. Yeah. It takes time, but I think people recognize it and stuff like that too. So, okay. So kind of going through, through a little bit, maybe one last question in that business regard is like, what, what was something that you thought? would be really easy when you started your business that you ended up realizing it was really freaking hard. speaker-1: ⁓ my... I... ⁓ just about everything, I think. I, I would say the initial part of it in terms of getting our business licensing, there's no like open up a book and say, how do you become a food manufacturing business? As opposed to manufacturing gear where you just need, you can do it in your garage. Everything here needs to be done through a commercial kitchen. So that whole process of. When we said, Hey, let's, let's make our own food. ⁓ every part about that was three times harder than I thought it needed to be. ⁓ we were on the phone with, with all these different kitchens, you tour them. It's not a good match. You keep looking, ⁓ this one's 35 minutes away. We can't do that in the winter. ⁓ you finally get a place going and then you start filling out the application to get your food license. And they say, well, you don't. have the food safety course. you get the food safety course and then they say, well, in order to apply, you have to have your packaging designed a hundred percent and approved by the state. So then you have to either pay someone to do the packaging design or do it yourself. They, in our case, so every time we thought we could get to the finish line, there was another step. And then once that step was crossed, more hurdles kept showing up, but we kept after it and it took several months, but we finally got there. So I think that's there. And I still can't tell people how to do it. It varies by county. It depends who your inspectors are, what their requirements are, what your products are. It varies so much that it's just a pain in the neck, but that's something every food business has to face. speaker-0: Well, guess you're inadvertently scaring off your competition right now. Cause I'm, there's no way I'm trying to, I'm trying to do something like that. So I'm sure people are sitting there going, okay, well I was thinking about starting this food business, forget about it. I, my, one of my daughter's friends, ⁓ she started a baking business and the county that we live in is one of the worst counties in Georgia to get stuff approved for when you're doing like restaurants and food kitchens and all this stuff. And it took her forever and ever. think it was like a year and a half to get something started that she just initially had just started in her kitchen doing it in like a a co-op kitchen. And then she tried to build her own kitchen and all this stuff. And she was like, man, I'll never do this again. Now that it's built, right. She's good. But she's like, I would never do this knowing if I knew what I knew now, because it was so hard. Okay, so kind of going over a few other questions then is what's, I guess what's one thing, well, you kind of answered that one, but how's your relationship with the outdoor, the outdoors changed since you've grown your business? Cause I know you're a hunter, right? And so you go out there, it, is running the business giving you a different outlook on the outdoors or do you spend more time in the outdoors? I guess you're. The good thing is you can take your food with you. So you don't have to worry about buying food or maybe you get sick of your own food because you just eat it all the time. speaker-1: I think it's given me a different perspective on the outdoors. When I was in my previous life working in manufacturing, I would use it as an outlet, I guess, just to go out and get my brain right, detox a little bit. Even living in Montana, it's out our back door, but we fail to take advantage of it sometimes and get in a rut. And so I'd say... Yeah, my, I get to be around it more, which was part of the goal instead of it's more integral to the business, I guess. And so we're talking with people like you or people on their next hunt or getting calls from guides. So I get to live vicariously through them, even if I'm not in the field, which is that's why I want to do it. I put people's, a smile on people's face. get emails from say a celiac trekker. in Greenland that says our food was amazing and saved him from stomach distress and helped enable his trip. That's amazing. I, yeah, I think it helps us live vicariously through people and all these different, different walks of life that, they're taking in the woods. speaker-0: Yeah, I bet you it's cool if you probably get some neat stories. I always like that. guess since you answer with that, maybe you can answer this question. So I usually ask later on, like what's one of the weirdest, most unexpected places that your product has ever shown up? speaker-1: ⁓ my... weirdest places. Sorry, I'm not very prepared for this one. speaker-0: ⁓ you're good. Yeah. Maybe somewhere you shipped or somewhere you just all of sudden happen to see it. speaker-1: ⁓ I remember being surprised the first time we shipped to Hawaii, that we've only shipped there a couple of times. And I'm also surprised when we ship to US bases. ⁓ Technically, the postal service will ship to all of these different naval bases or army bases. so ⁓ I'm always surprised when one of those comes through and a little bit gratified that our food's making its way onto a military base. speaker-0: Yeah, that's cool. Maybe eventually it'll be like in an MRE or something like that. they're like, because I know I keep saying the taste is awesome, but ⁓ I've eaten a lot of foods and I've shoot for a lot of food companies too. And I was always, I've eaten so many that it's kind of, they all taste the same. So yours is like a departure from the normal foods that you get from all the other big guys. You know what mean? So, ⁓ okay. So I guess can, how do you keep team or, know, in your case, it's your family, you know, how do you guys keep yourself connected to the original mission that, ⁓ you started out with? I know since for you, your, your seasons come and go in every business. And so for you, you've got to go and you rather do, you do other jobs at the same time as your. speaker-1: your speaker-0: doing this and stuff like that, which I think is awesome because you're like, my wife always goes, she says she never worries about bread on the table because she knows that I'm going to do whatever it takes. You know, so whether I'm doing weddings or I'm out shooting trail company stuff, or I'm doing social media campaigns for people, or I'm going and building a friend's deck and they're paying me a little bit of money. So, you know, how do you guys stay connected to the outdoors. Maybe that's just your hunting, but there's your wife and I know you have a kid as well. So you guys go out. speaker-1: Yeah, so the original mission we signed up for was we became a part of 2 % for conservation before we sold any food at all. And ⁓ that entity has changed. think it's Fish and Wildlife volunteers or something to that effect now, but essentially it's an organization that gives back to public lands and helps conserve wildlife. we've been, that's been one of the cornerstones, I guess, of our business. And that's proudly on the back of all of our packaging. So we stay connected with that pretty constantly. The only times we're opal politically online is when it comes to threats against public lands, which I took it for granted living up in Montana that every place I recreate is public lands and that's my backyard. So I take that pretty seriously. And so that's... speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: We've been vocal about that in the past, which there's been plenty of opportunity to be vocal about that over the past several years. But I'd say that's something we stay connected with. I try and hand out food sometimes when I'm out backpacking, I'll sneak food into people's tents if they're not around. Do a little grill and mugging. That sort of thing. then as part of it, again, back on the conservation, we volunteer every year. I've taken my daughter out on two mountain goat surveys in the past, helping local biologists. We'll do trail cleanups or fishing access cleanups, that sort of thing. So we, yeah, we try and stay connected as best we can. And then my wife, ⁓ she, we do a lot of camping in the summer. She's not the backpacker in the family. That's, she loves to camp. and do some stream fishing, but my son and I do some hunting together. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, that's cool. It's funny living here in Georgia, I was trying to find a campsite for my friend and I for his 40th birthday to take him camping for the first time. And I was like, I don't want to go to all these other places. And my wife and I had just gotten back from California and beyond for my first time really camping on like a public land area. And I didn't realize like West coast and you know, Northwest and central, like there's a lot of public land. But here in Georgia, can't find literally any public land in Georgia. so until I went out there, I didn't realize how much public land was such a big part of the outdoor world. And it really turned my mindset to, I understand why people were getting mad about selling off public land and stuff like that, because there's so many amazing places. But here in Georgia, we don't have anywhere to enjoy that public land access and stuff like that. You know, it's mostly just state parks and everything. seeing that now, mean, that literally is just over last couple of days. I was trying to a campsite and I was like, oh, let me look up public land. And that way we can just kind of go, you know, back country and I couldn't find anything. So it was a lot harder to find a campsite than we thought. So yeah, that's really good that you guys that do that. I think every business needs to find something that they can give back to. you know, not just for, because some people do it just for marketing purposes, but we all have a passion that I think we can kind of give a portion back to. So we did the same thing for ⁓ in our wedding business. We would give to every wedding that we would book, we'd give back 500 plates of food to an orphanage over in India to, ⁓ help feed the kids. had gone and shot a video for a nonprofit over there and I fell in love with the kids and was like, how can we give back and then also show our clients, hey, this is what we're giving to and hopefully they'll latch onto it and go, hey, we wanna feed the kids as well. So I think everybody needs to find that thing in their heart that they really wanna reach out to. That's cool that you guys do that. I like that. All right, so I guess I'll ask one more question then we'll kind of go into our rapid fire round and that's really quick. easy little thing, it's just a little quick little questions, I guess what advice would you give to someone at the trailhead of their business who's starting a business? What are some maybe some warnings or some really good things or some advice that you can give people that are trying to start their business in the outdoor industry? speaker-1: Outdoor industry business advice, I would say once you have convinced yourself that your idea is worth investing in and worth bringing to life, whether it's food or gear or really a service, anything, once that you've done your homework and it's vetted and it feels like something that scratches an itch that fills a need, then be absolutely relentless in how you go about it. There's a good advice that's been helpful to me on my lowest days was you can't fail if you don't give up. so that's been our mantra is we've had some pretty dark days and we just keep going. Sometimes you're planting seeds that you don't know how they'll grow. So even when it looks like there's no future and just keep after it. just be relentless in your determination and that's my two cents. speaker-0: No, that's good. think I guess maybe I just sound like an old man, but I'm like, I like when I would when I was working in corporate America and stuff like that, the younger people would come and they would have that instant like if they don't get a promotion and they're not making a million dollars within six months, they go to the next job and the next job and the next job and there's no patience, right? And the more I'm talking to people that have their own business, whether it's a product, or even a service, it's being steady and knowing that it's gonna grow, but it's not always. And sometimes it's great if it does grow, know, blows up really, really big. But a lot of times it's slowly building your business until it's concrete. And a lot of times those are the more, I guess, more stable businesses, right? Because you've had, you're basically growing your roots of your company. And so when the winds do blow, when it gets crazy, whether it's tariffs or whatever, at least you have a little bit of stability ⁓ in that. that's good. I wrote that down. was like, be relentless and then you can't fail if you don't give up. So that's awesome. Okay, cool. So thank you for that advice. I thank you for, I mean, letting everybody know all that stuff. So I'm gonna go in, this is just to kind of get to know you a little bit more. And sometimes I wonder if I should do this rapid fire round right at the beginning. So people get to know you first and then go into it. I'm just gonna ask you like about 10 questions ⁓ and just kind of let me know your answers from there. So first question I was asked is what's your favorite national park? speaker-1: I have not been to that many, so I would say Yellowstone because it's closest. It's incredibly old and very diverse. speaker-0: Okay, all right, last thing you Googled related to your business. speaker-1: Last thing I googled in relation to my business. I was probably looking for someone to help in some fashion or price checking powdered milk. speaker-0: That's awesome. I was just thinking like, there's probably like other people that would be like, that's such interesting. If you saw your history, you'd think you're having another baby or something like that. All right, this one, solo hike or crew mission? speaker-1: Solo hike all the time unless it's with one of my kids. I do 95 % of my backpacking by myself. speaker-0: Yeah. I don't know how you do it up there with like grizzly bears and stuff like that, because I told my wife one thing after watching all kinds of weird movies and stuff about grizzlies. said, I'm going to backpack by myself a lot. And I guess maybe I will go with someone, but I said I'll never backpack alone if I know there's grizzlies around just to make her feel better. All right, next one is, and this is funny because you make food, so what's the worst trail snack you've ever tried? speaker-1: I think it's probably being stupid enough to take bananas along and having them turn into mush in my pack. That's never worked out very well. speaker-0: That's awesome. Okay, what's up? speaker-1: what I said. speaker-0: No, that's really good. I never even thought. Yeah, I take bananas to the kids' basketball games and stuff all the time. And I don't know how they can be green on the counter and I can throw them in the cooler. And next thing you know, they're like nasty within hours. So can't imagine bringing it on the trail. Just having it all disgusting. All right, what's one outdoor skill you still kind of suck at? speaker-1: I'm not super good at navigating with a compass. ⁓ think that, yeah, I grew up in the, I'm 43. So I grew up with Topo maps and had a early generation GPS, but I think now I would say my navigation skills that we just become so dependent on maps on our phone and on X and all these things. So I There's people out there that are a lot stronger with actual declination and navigating in a canoe for a certain amount of time or, you know, those certain things I think I'd love to learn more about. speaker-0: Okay, so next question, tent, hammock or cowboy camping? speaker-1: ⁓ tents from May until September with the bug nest in after that rain fly only with a, ⁓ Tyvek or something on the ground. speaker-0: ⁓ wow. I'm trying to wait until I meet the most hardcore person that they don't even have anything. They're just like, they just lay down. Cause I know there's through hikers, they literally just curl up in a ball on some moss and sleep. Yeah, I hate bugs. So I have to be in a tent just, just for that. No bug policy. So, all right. If you could collab with any brand and I like this one a lot. This is my favorite question. If you could collab with any brand, who would it be? speaker-1: If I could collaborate with any brand... I think it would be something in the ultralight space because they tend to have a lot of creativity and craziness with how they approach things. So I would say probably ultralight clothing company would be kind of fun. Okay. speaker-0: Two more questions. This one is kind of funny, I guess, but also interesting to see is, what's the biggest splurge you've made for your business? speaker-1: The biggest dollar item that we have is a filling machine that vibrates food out onto a scale and then drops it down into a funnel. So that was a splurge where we went from hand depositing our food using a coffee scale that we would tear out and... ⁓ Tear, meaning T-A-R-E. would zero the weight out. And then I had a lot of chiropractor visits after using that. It's been a huge development to get this new machine in. That was a few years back, but definitely a big change. speaker-0: big. Yeah, that's cool. I just talked to someone else in the food industry and they've been hand packing their, their meals in like a bag and they just now have them in a factory. And she was able to see it in the factory filling and she's like, this is so much easier. I'm like saving my my whole life. like, why haven't I not been doing this before? You know, because you don't know you sometimes you know, but you realize it's a big expense. And then once you get it, you're just like, man, why have I not had this? this whole time. all right, cool. So I guess one last question is what's one, well, let me ask you this one, guess, ⁓ mountains, forest, desert or coastal? speaker-1: mountains just because I can see or ways. I didn't grow up near the ocean. And one time in high school, I went boogie boarding in Hawaii with my parents on a trip and I got a concussion, got slammed into the surf. So I have a healthy respect of the ocean and grew up in the mountains. I'd say, I'd say the mountains. That's where my home is. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, what's the elevation where you're at? Like how easy is it for you to get to elevation? Are you already pretty high up? speaker-1: My watch says 4,800 feet right here. so I can be, I guess the nearest trailhead to a 10,000 foot peak would probably be about 35 minutes from my door. speaker-0: That's awesome. I'm moving there right now. I'm at 1000 feet here and it's an hour drive for me to get somewhere and the highest place is 4500 feet. So, and it's not, it's just greenage. There's no like open fields and stuff like that. That's why I love to go. I know everybody from Florida. speaker-1: Thank speaker-0: drives up right now, all you see is Florida license plates up in the mountains because everybody from Florida drives up to see the Georgia mountains. But I'm so used to seeing like peaks of mountains in the West coast where, you know, you're just, you can see so far. I'm just going, man, I just want to move there. But I know once I moved there, I'm probably not going to be on trail as much. that I'm, I'm super jealous. I think I told you before, I have a real estate agent that's every once in a while will send me like plots of land from Montana because I'm trying to buy like 20 to 40 acres of land in Montana to put a tiny home on so one day one day you I will be neighbors so speaker-1: That sounds good. speaker-0: So, mean, Sean, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. I learned, even though I know a lot about your story, I even learned a lot more, and especially business related too. So where can people find you online and on your socials? speaker-1: So you can find us at angrypikafood.com and then our socials the same, angrypikafood on Facebook and Instagram. And I became aware that another small business mistake, I guess we've made plenty of those. if you go to alpenfield.com as of a couple of days ago, someone bought the domain. I let it expire because we couldn't redirect it. And I didn't think with a company of our size that someone would try and take advantage of that, but lo and behold, they have. So if you go to Alpenfuel.com right now, there's a mock-up, which is using all of our old copyrighted material. They're currently not able to take people's money, but yeah, that's pretty frustrating. So if you want to find our food, you can go to angrypikafood.com and we have a dealer locator on there that We'll show you the 150 stores across North America where you can find our food as well. speaker-0: Awesome. Cool. I'll link all that stuff for people to be able to click on it as well. And I really appreciate your time and all the best ⁓ moving forward. And I can't wait to hear the cool ideas you probably have for different foods and stuff like that coming in the new year or different cookies, or maybe you'll make like a fruit by the foot or something like that. Awesome. Thanks, Sean. I appreciate it. Thanks for the opportunity,