Latest / 🎙️ Rebuild & Fulfill Real conversations on burnout, rebuilding, and becoming stronger than before. / Knowing Wasn’t Enough | Jimmy Morris on Gambling Addiction and Real Recovery | Episode 38
Transcript
- Kelsey Dunbar: Jimmy Morris knew he had a gambling problem. He attended his first Gambler's Anonymous meeting at 23 years old. He cried through much of it and recognized that if he didn't stop, he would eventually experience the same consequences he heard other people describing. But knowing wasn't enough. For the next seven or eight years, Jimmy moved in and out of recovery. He attended meetings when the losses became unbearable, or his family stopped speaking to him. When the immediate crisis passed, he stopped going. Even while incarcerated, he studied sports magazines and planned the bets Marc Rogala: possible. Kelsey Dunbar: he would make after his release. Jimmy wanted recovery, but he wanted it on his terms. His transformation began when the people closest to him stopped rescuing him. Someone showed up during Marc Rogala: to answer that. Kelsey Dunbar: one of his loneliest days of his life, and another person cared enough to tell him the truth he didn't want to hear. Today, Jimmy has been gambling free since February 9th, 2012. He is the host of Gambling Recovery. Taking back your life, and he is a featured speaker at the Transformation Gap Summit and is now in the process of putting his full story into a manuscript. This is not only a story about stopping gambling, it's about the difference between abstinence Marc Rogala: Thank Kelsey Dunbar: and recovery and what it takes to become capable of living differently. Welcome back to Rebuild and Fulfill, real conversations about burnout, rebuilding, and becoming stronger than before. I'm Kelsey Dunbar, joined by my co-host and suffered a tougher co-founder, Marc Rogala, and today's guest is Jimmy Morris, a compulsive gambler in long-term recovery, gambling recovery advocate, speaker, and host of Gambling Recovery Taking Back Your Life. Jimmy grew up on Taylor Street in Chicago's Little Italy neighborhood, where sports, competition, Community, and gambling were all woven into everyday life. What began with childhood games and small sports bets eventually escalated into debt, damaged relationships, incarceration, and years of moving Marc Rogala: you Kelsey Dunbar: in and out of recovery. Jimmy has now been gambling free for more than 14 years. uses his experience to help gamblers and their families understand that gambling addiction is not simply a financial problem. Jimmy, welcome to Rebuild and Fulfill. Jimmy Morris: Thanks guys. I appreciate you having me to to share my story today. Kelsey Dunbar: Absolutely. Glad to have you. Jimmy, let's start by going back to Taylor Street. You went from pitching quarters as a kid to betting through a bookie and eventually sitting on the couch crying because you had lost more money than you could recover. When did something like that feel so normal and harmless begin changing into something else? Jimmy Morris: Yeah, I I think it it really you know, it kind of starts out this pretty much the same for mo a lot of people. It's you know, you something to kill time, something to you know, you have fun with your friends, you you're growing up with and kinda everybody's doing it. You know, it's one of those things where it's you know, and it is fun. It starts off fun. it starts off where you kinda kill some time and you're bored and you know, you you grow up playing sports with everybody and Marc Rogala: Okay. Jimmy Morris: it it's just kind of like one of like a group ac activity. you know, and then when it it gets out of hand is when you bet more money than than you have and you have to go crawling to either, you know, somebody you love or a friend and you know, almost like begging for money. Marc Rogala: Yeah. So just again, thank you for being a part of our show. I appreciate it. So your mother warned you that your grandmother has struggled with gambling from what I understand. Jimmy Morris: it yeah, that's something I didn't know when when I the first time I I you know, went into the our kitchen and I just cried my eyes out to her. and I asked her for money and you know, I need help please and she just like had this like I don't know, it was a it was a weird look she had, almost like she's she's seen this before. And you know, after she wrote me the check, you know, she said, I'm I'm not gonna do this to you for you ever again and We're not gonna tell your father and you know, you need to stop. And then afterwards she told me that my grandmother, her mother, had a really bad gambling problem in the seventies and eighties when house games were very popular. a lot of people would hit would play cards at home and Marc Rogala: Yeah. Jimmy Morris: you know, she had bank statements of loans from banks for she said from the from the table to the ceiling, from borrowing from banks. Marc Rogala: But not only was it there, but gambling was also connected to your friends, your sports that you played, weekends, and sense of belonging. So looking back, what made it so difficult for that warning to compete with everything gambling seemed to be giving you at that particular time? Jimmy Morris: you know, I think there's a lot of factors with that. It's it's you know, ego, I think, you know, being a you know, being able to tell myself that I can control this. and I think it's part of the sickness, you know, the sickness, you know, seeks into our pores or seeked into my pores and tells me all these lies and tells me everything I want to hear. And you know, it's it's that back and forth talk with myself, back and forth talk with with God and this is gonna be my last time, I promise. and then, you know, w e after, the big wins, see I can do this and it's just a revolving door of of like wins, losses, lies manipulating, a revolving door of misery. Marc Rogala: Did you have any co-occurring addictions along with that though, Jimmy? Like drinking and then gambling? Jimmy Morris: I I did not. Marc Rogala: Okay. Cause I hear a lot of that, you know, with the work that I do in the community. you hear that quite a bit, I get phone calls all the time. I went out to the bar on Friday night. I got blackout drunk and my entire paycheck was gone. And I don't know how I'm going to pay my bills at a grocery store my family for the next week. I mean, I hear it multiple times per week, quite frankly. Jimmy Morris: It it's it's very common for people that walk into Gamblers Anonymous for a cross addiction. it's definitely not uncommon. And also you know, the majority of the people that come in that are, you know, sober from alcohol or drugs, most of them do say that gambling by far has been the hardest to stop over their other addictions. you know, w gambling is at a reward system. You know, if you if you gamble, you know, there's a possibility you can win. when you drug or drink, there's not a possibility of you winning. Like you you know that. so there's a big difference there. And and also, you know, we we talk about it all the time. It it this is an invisible disease. You know, you can go ten, twenty years. I mean, people come in our rooms all the time. Their their spouses didn't know for 10 years that they that they were, you know, moving in in and out of money and out of the account and paying the bill because they were in control of the money. you can't do that with drugs and alcohol. You can't hide for 10 years. you physically see it on the person when they use drugs and alcohol. So by that time, you've built up 10 years of destruction. and you can't, you know, you can't do that without somebody noticing when in the other addictions. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah. So I mean that definitely helps put the early years into perspective that gambling wasn't only about the money. It was connected to how you spent your time, who you spent it with, and where you felt you belonged. But by twenty-three, you were beginning to see that this could take your life somewhere you didn't want it to go. So when you sat in that first gambler's anonymous meeting and heard other people describe where gambling had taken them, what did you recognize in their stories as And what did you think kept that realization from becoming lasting change? Marc Rogala: Thank Jimmy Morris: You know, when I walked into their room I felt very connected with the people in the room. I felt not judged. I felt welcomed. And, you know, I think that's definitely one of the, you know, biggest parts of these Gamblers Anonymous rooms is being able to be seen and heard and felt from complete strangers. you know, that's that's the the that's what's so amazing about these rooms and Marc Rogala: . Jimmy Morris: What I noticed is that most people in that room were a lot worse than I was. And I walked out of there and I said, Wow, like, you know, I really got out of I I really got a lot out of that. But if I don't stop, I had the awareness to be able to say to myself, if I don't stop, I I'm gonna get to that point where they're at. and when my mom picked me up from from that church basement. She said, you know, what'd you think? And I told her what I thought. And you know, she asked, would I go back? I'm yeah, I'd go back. Not for one second that I think Marc Rogala: you Jimmy Morris: that I would need to be there on a regular basis, you know, you know, for the rest of my life, one day at a time. I thought, yeah, I'll I'll check it out again, and really didn't think much of it. You know, obviously I I've always, you know, that's another blessing that I've that I've had, is I've always known I had a gambling problem. It was never I don't have a problem. People would say you have a problem. I'm like, I know. You know, so I never denied it. I knew I had a problem before I walked in that room, but Marc Rogala: Yeah. Jimmy Morris: being so welcomed and being so heard and crying my eyes out and people just being so loving, I felt like wow, this is a this is a safe place. This really is a safe place for me to be. Marc Rogala: Yeah, no, I agree with that. Did you walk out of that room hearing those crazy stories thinking, well, you know, I got a problem, but it's nowhere near as this. So I can go back out there at all. Because that was my experience with AA the first time I walked in there thinking I had a problem and then I heard all these stories and I left there thinking, man, I'm not as bad as I thought I was. Jimmy Morris: Yeah, I think there was a little bit of thought of that, you know, and then it's still the thought of I I can do this on my own. I can stop. My grandmother, she stopped. So if she can stop, I can I could this willpower thing is possible. You know, and and and the illusion of it is is I was able to stop for a month, two months, three months. So then that also gives me the the the so-called confidence to think I can stop. See? I don't have any urges. but You know, eventually the the the disease comes back and and you know, that's what happened with me many times. Marc Rogala: Just a follow up question. So looking back at those years removing in and out of GA, how much were you actually seeking recovery and how much were you simply trying to find relief from the pain that you were experiencing at that time? Jimmy Morris: Yeah, I mean I that's great question because I think I know when I was crawling back into the rooms, it was because I was hurting. I was in pain. My family stopped talking to me for a couple of weeks. I had nowhere else to go and I had no money and I had nobody to borrow money from. And you know, I was in debt and I just came crawling back and you know, when the tears dried up and the smoke cleared and the money started coming back and the My parents started talking to me again, you know, okay, I don't really need to to be here every single week. I'll just, you know, hold off for now, you know, a couple months and you know, when I go back into it, I'll start betting small amounts. I won't bet w as big as I did before, which is the biggest bullshit lie a compulsive gambler can say. Marc Rogala: I just look at comparisons. mean, addiction is an addiction, right? Your drug of choice is gambling. My drug of choice is alcohol and prescription opiates. But it's the same mentality, the absolute same mentality. Okay, well, I'm sober for a period of time where I've been off the substances in alcohol for a month or a couple of months or what have you. I can go buy 10 or 15 pain pills off the street and just get that feeling one more time and it'd be good. And every time I put it back in my body, I was off to the races again. And the same thing happened with alcohol as well. You know, so it's the same exact concept. And then, you know, you start talking about tapering, you know, okay, well, I'm not, you know, I'm not going to use the equation to gambling. And I just want to know if you feel this is accurate or not. So instead of drinking vodka, I'm going to drink beer. Or instead of taking Oxycontin, I'm going to take Norco. So instead of betting on, putting a bet on this, I'm going to put a smaller bet on that. That's how you justify it in your mind that, I'm doing better. Is that a fair statement or no? Jimmy Morris: Yeah, absolutely. I I always say it's a it's a different drug, but same same habit, same character defects, lying, manipulating, cheating, you know, all that. It it all comes together and it's just a different drug. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah, I I think that distinction between wanting recovery and wanting relief is incredibly important. People often assume that once the consequences become painful enough, change will automatically follow. But your experience shows that addiction doesn't always work that way. So even while you were incarcerated, you had friends send you sports magazines so you could research the bets you wanted to make after your release. When you look back at that now, how do you understand what was happening inside your mind? Jimmy Morris: You know, and I was really big into fantasy football. So it for me, I was like, send me a magazine so I could study the fantasy football. And you know, in the meantime, I'm looking at, you know, the the NFL schedule, the college schedule, and what what games look good. And when I w when I went into jail, I was debt free. And in my mind, you know, I was incarcinated I I wasn't I pled guilty to aggravated battery for a bar fight. And in my mind, okay, the fighting, I can't fight anymore. There's no more fighting. But I didn't have that mentality with the gambling. I I just didn't. It wasn't it just didn't register for me. I thought I was like, I'm debt free. You know what? When I come out, I'll just I'll just take it slow and and and and you know put some small bets in. But for for the life of me, I can't get into any more fights. but the gambling I can go back to. And That's you know, my mother said If this doesn't make you stop gambling, nothing will. What she didn't understand was one had nothing to do with the other. You know, I needed I needed help. I needed serious help. whether it was inpatient treatment or, you know, a consistent consistency in going to gamblers anonymous. Though that I needed help. I I was I was a very, very sick person. Marc Rogala: Okay. Okay. Gotcha. So after your final bet, your family did something different. They stopped rescuing you and you were told that you were not welcome at Easter dinner. How did that moment affect you differently from all the consequences that had come before that? Jimmy Morris: Yeah, so a lot of times most of the times I I borrowed money from friends. And then when I couldn't borrow from anybody else, I'd go crawling and crying to my parents and they'd bailed me out. And it just was it was the timing was always interesting because always kind of around for close to the holidays. And whenever that happened, I you know, was really down on myself, depressed, you know, crying my eyes out, you know, I was texting my dad, I I don't deserve to be it be here for Christmas or Thanksgiving and he would always reply with you need you need to be here with your family. And you know, it was uncomfortable. It was an uncomfortable holiday dinner. but they wanted me there with them, every single time, you know, which was probably, you know, 10, 15 years of doing that. And yeah, this last time, I think I had about two and a half months clean. They still weren't talking to me. Easter, Easter was coming up, and I think I I think I texted my brother about what are the plans for Easter. And I and the the response I got back was like, you know, sorry, you're you're not welcome this year. and for me, that was, you know, that really hit me. That like tore me to pieces. you know, it was it was kind of a reality of Chuck of like we are going to stick to our guns and we're gonna we're gonna there's consequences this time. And and as much as we hate to do Marc Rogala: Thank you. Jimmy Morris: it, we have to turn our back on you. And that's they did and it it really it it really took a lot out of me. Marc Rogala: So. Kelsey Dunbar: So obviously that like you said, that that had to been incredibly painful. But but what happened next also shows that setting a boundary and abandoning someone are not necessarily the same thing. So your family stepped back, but someone else chose to step forward. So Tony drove from Indiana so you wouldn't spend Easter alone. Then a few months later, your uncle Teddy cared enough to confront you about repeating the same recovery pattern. One offered compassion. Marc Rogala: Okay. Thank Kelsey Dunbar: And the other one gave you a difficult truth. What did each of them give you that you weren't able to give yourself at that point? Jimmy Morris: love. connection, you know. guy drove from Indiana to t away from his family to come spend, you know, go to church with me and went to eat afterwards. you know, Teddy Teddy seen me from from when I was twenty three. So he's he's seen me the whole way. and he just kind of laid into me and and Gave me some some hard truth and you know, that lit a, you know, fire under my ass to really get going. And really actually, instead of just showing up to the Gamblers Anonymous rooms, it it it helped me to like actually work work recovery, work Marc Rogala: Bye bye. Jimmy Morris: the 12 steps. and then and ever since I kind of started that, it's people often ask me like, what was the defining moment? I think that first year there was over ten defining moments of just so many people helping. It wasn't just one. there was just many and it it really took a community of people that really helped me. it really did. So they they all so many people played a part in saving my life, truly. Marc Rogala: That's beautiful. So once you understood that not gambling was not the same as being in recovery or living a life of recovery, how did you begin showing your family through your actions that you were becoming someone that they can actually trust again? Jimmy Morris: That's such an interesting question. Somebody asked me a few months ago When did you start noticing a change in yourself? And I was like, wow, it definitely wasn't in the first year. You know, and I and I and I and I say this a lot in the rooms, you know, we have to I I had to filter through a lot of the negative character defects that I've obtained over over the years since I've since birth, you know, my upbringing. negative things that I I've seen around friends, people in school, people in work. I mean, this is a collective, you know, lifetime of negative things that I've picked up, on top of what gambling has taught me, you know, which is to be a person I never was my parents didn't raise me to be, which is a person I never thought I was capable of being. So you have to I had to filter through all of that. And you know, so 31 years of all of these things combined, I I think I really my you know my family in the beginning would say, you know what? It's it's great that you're not gambling. We love that for you. You're still acting the same way. You're still acting the same way. Marc Rogala: Yeah. Jimmy Morris: And I'm like, Jesus, can't they give me a break? I'm not gambling, but you know, and I really didn't see it. How they seen it, you know. but working the 12 steps is is was the transformation of the character change of becoming a better person, Marc Rogala: on the track. Jimmy Morris: you know, being a more loving person, empath, empathy, empathetic. That word, I didn't even know what that word meant until I was like 34. you know, so and I'm very big on this. There's stopping the addiction, and then there's recovery. And you have to have both. If you don't have both, it it it doesn't work. I've seen people all the time it happens. They stop their addiction and their lives is are still unmanageable. Excuse my language, they're still assholes. Their egos are still huge. the character change is another miracle Marc Rogala: Thank Jimmy Morris: of the program. You know, it's stopping the addiction, miracle one. Character change, miracle two, the connections, the people we meet, miracle three, and then paying it for being able to help people like people help me. That's miracle four. But part of the miracle is the is the recovery. You know, I I there's there's an old time member, I'll never forget this. He said in in in a meeting, he said, you know, this is more than just not gambling. He said, I know somebody came in the room, he's got nine years clean. He screamed and yelled at his boss. He came home, kicked the dog. screamed and yell at his wife. That's not recovery. Marc Rogala: No. Jimmy Morris: So there is a big difference. There's a there's a big difference. And I think and I and I and I hate to say this, but There's a very, very small percentage of people that's that stick around for a long period of time in these rooms, less than five percent. And the reason I think one Marc Rogala: Okay. Jimmy Morris: of the reasons is They don't wait for the miracle. They don't wait for the miracles. They are impatient. This is a process. It takes time for the change to happen. and they Marc Rogala: Okay. Jimmy Morris: think, from what I've seen, even including myself, I always thought if I could just stop gambling, there's gonna be a switch, they go off, and my life is gonna be unbelievable. And I'm just gonna be this ray of light of an amazing person. And that's just not reality. There needs to be a a lot of work to be put into it to be able to connect that not not gambling with recovery so it could work you know the best way possible. Marc Rogala: When you see somebody abstaining from gambling, so they're sober after drug choice gambling, but they're not working on those, on the personal inventory and making amends and things like that. Do you see in your world a lot of cross addictions taking place where all of a sudden people might pick up a food addiction and they put on 50 or 60 pounds or they start dabbling with alcohol or other substances or shopping or stuff like that? Jimmy Morris: Yeah, I mean I I I I kind of picked up like shopping my first like year or two. for sure. I mean, it's hard. It's it's we tell people all the time, pick up something new, pick up a different hobby, you know. think about something you like to do when you were a young kid. Did you did you did you have piano lessons or did you play the guitar? Pick up go go buy a guitar, practice, like you know, go go train for a half marathon. Like, you know, I I I I signed up for a full marathon the month before I stopped gambling and I I I tell people all the time that was a huge part of my first year training for the the the marathon. It helped me really clear my mind and and keep my mind off of what was going on. So yeah, I think it's I think it just It makes it so much harder to to try to fight this disease when you're just stop and you're just you're in your thoughts. You know, and really keep keeping busy and i is a very crucial time in recovery. Marc Rogala: Yeah, that's the one thing I always talk about. It's not just saying sober, it's living a recovery lifestyle. It needs to become a lifestyle if you want long-term recovery. So I appreciate you shedding some light on that. Kelsey Dunbar: I was actually gonna say it's it's interesting because the way that you put it specifically, I didn't realize They're actually two completely separate things So that that was really cool. I appreciate that. what I also really love is that, recovery stopped being only about what you were trying not to do. It became about the person who you were learning to become. So that's pretty cool too. So I'm gonna let Marc ask you about that one. Marc Rogala: Yeah, no, so for years you believed gambling addiction had ruined your life. Today through gambling recovery, taking back your life and the manuscript that you're actually writing, you use that experience to help other people. So how did the part of your life you were once most ashamed of become the source of your purpose? Jimmy Morris: You know These programs, twelve step programs, work because i it it's all about helping each other out. and it's all about not wanting anything in return. All we want to do is help you. and I think it's just I think it's the greatest gift in the world. I think it it really is. Like to be able to help another human out is like I don't think there's anything better in life. I mean, really help somebody like like really play a part in saving their lives. And you know, being in recovery and and being a compulsive gambler has put me in position to be able to help people. And it's just it's just a feeling I I just can't describe. And you almost get addicted to helping people. Marc Rogala: Okay. Jimmy Morris: but also you have to be careful because the main goal is me. And I've seen people and I'm sure I've done it too, where I've gotten carried away with helping people and helping too many people. Like I already I like right now, like I sponsor way too many people. and I don't want that because I don't want to to get away from my recovery. Number one is me. it is a selfish program. You know, I walk in these rooms because I'm trying to help myself. I'm also trying to help other people, but it's easy to kind of Marc Rogala: Okay. Okay. Jimmy Morris: shoe away from that. You can get too overwhelmed and too busy. so I'm careful of that. I'm mindful of that. even with, you know, all the things I have going on and the podcast, I I I have to like pinch myself sometimes and be like, hey, it's you know, you're you gotta take care of you first. This other stuff can wait, you know. Even in like during the podcast I took like a month break and I'm like, it's okay. It's okay to take a break, you know? I really dug deep into helping people and wanting to help more people. And how can I help people just not only in the Chicagoland area? And with the legalization of gambling, it's like this is just this is very predatory. so many more lives are gonna be ruined, so many more families' lives are gonna be ruined. and there's really no gambling prevention out there for podcasts. Marc Rogala: So I was gonna you for up you obviously were in there. Jimmy Morris: And I I have to be able to try and help more people than just Chicago. Marc Rogala: So I was gonna ask you you obviously were going in there. when you're addicted, now you're living this life of recovery, but it's been a good stretch of time. Are you seeing a large uptick of people coming looking for help at GA meetings compared to when you first started going? Jimmy Morris: More more than ever before and more younger people than ever before. If you walked into a gambler's anonymous room in 2003, 2005, 2010, and there was 30 people in there, you are very, very lucky you'd see one or two people that are in their 20s. Now, minimum 10, 10, 15 people out of the 30 are people in their 20s. And early 30s. You didn't even see anybody in their 30s back then. It was that's why younger people didn't stick to the program for so long. Because they would walk in the rooms and the average age was 50 and 60 year olds. And you walk in as a 20-year-old or 25-year-old, they're like, What what do I have in common with these older people? And Marc Rogala: Then. Jimmy Morris: then you have somebody like, hey, give this 65-year-old a call tomorrow. You know, it's like my grandfather. I'm not, you know, it's like I'm not gonna call that old guy. You know, that's the mentality. So so many people walked in and walked out for that specific reason. Now you're seeing for your question, yes, you are seeing so many more younger people come in, but you're also seeing so many more younger people stick around because there's more people than in the same age. Marc Rogala: That's good. And this is the reason why I asked that question because I had a similar experience when I was going to AA when I was struggling. I mean, I was in my early 40s and I felt like I was the youngest person in the room. And I walk into an AA meeting and I would say probably half the people in the room are under the age of 30. So I assumed it was the same thing in GA just because I mean, it's, could. sit on your phone on the couch and friggin' gamble. I mean, it's so friggin' accessible, you know? I mean, I would assume that the problems are growing and the amount of people seeking out help is more than ever. So I appreciate you kind of shedding some light to the general public that watched this podcast on what's going on out there, because that's education right there as well. Jimmy Morris: Yeah, I mean you you you you mentioned access. I mean that's just the access, the advertising, the algorithms, AI, these are all four of these things are being pushed on everybody, especially younger people. I mean, it's bad it's bad enough if it was just on the phone and then nothing else. We have four different types of like predatory things that are attacking people at twenty four seven. you know, when I stopped gambling, I mean when I was calling in the bets to illegal bookies, you were bet on the over and the under. That's it. Two things. You can bet on five hundred different types of bets in one game. You can bet on every single pitch of a of a baseball game. I mean, it is you know, it it's just It's just the beginning and we're there's very, very sad times ahead for a lot of families. the biggest illusion with gambling right now is the prop bets. And this is the reason why. FanDuels and DraftKings, I think, announced last year that like 80-something percent of their profits come from prop bets, which is in the gambling world, it's called a sucker bet. and winning those bets is like winning the lottery. You're you're hardly ever gonna win those bets. the illusion is, and what they're selling the young children on is, and and even the adults, you bet ten dollars, you put in five, ten different prop bets, you could win up to five thousand, ten thousand. But you're only risking ten dollars. But that's how it starts. The betting increments always go up. it never stays the same, everything always gets worse. But that's how they suck you in. And believe me, those ten dollar prop bets, they never stay at ten dollars. You know, the you get a new job, you're making an extra 30,000. Okay. It doesn't feed the beast anymore. Those 10 go to 20, then they go to 50. Then you're just betting on games. And it it's it's a very progressive illness. and it always usually starts out as something fun. but they're selling it as you. Risk this small, very, very small amount, but you could win huge. And what they're doing is they're advertising these big wins on social media because then it's showing these children, look, Marc Rogala: Yeah. Jimmy Morris: it's possible. I have a friend of a friend who won a big bet, I think a c a million, two million dollars. Marc Rogala: you Jimmy Morris: And the company he won from Because now his name got really big. They sent him a bogus win ticket to post on his social media like a month months later. So that's just to show the public, see, Marc Rogala: Okay. Jimmy Morris: he won again. You could do this more than once. Marc Rogala: It's funny you mentioned baseball cards, because I was on a podcast with the mental health organization, there was a gentleman that had, he's a clinical therapist and he actually had He's got some certification on the gambling side. And I was telling him, you know, that I honestly, I never bought a lottery ticket. And I've seen gambling issues like in my family and so forth, you know? So, you know, I've never bought a lottery ticket. I've stayed away from it, okay? So I told him, I go, I never gamble. He goes, well, he you got baseball cards when you were younger? And I'm like, yeah. He goes, well, then you gambled. And I tried to have him explain it. said, what do you mean? He's gotten this whole explanation on this podcast. And I'm like, holy shit, you're right, man. Jimmy Morris: Yeah, that's a that's a that's another s another topic for another show because believe me, it's huge, huge addiction for these young kids right now. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah, I mean my my son watches box breaks even to this day. and he doesn't even collect cards anymore, but he'll watch them because they're entertaining. thank God he's only watching other people do box breaks because he used to buy a box of cards. for a hundred and fifty bucks for his Christmas, he'd be like, I want two box of cards. He'd open up, he'd get whatever few cards that were rare or valuable. And man, you want to talk about losing your high real fast, have your whole Christmas be over in ten minutes, and you don't even get to play with anything. But yeah, I mean I definitely see that as as being on the gambling side. It's just again, people wouldn't think of it that way. Jimmy Morris: Yeah, and and and back to the pro the prop bets, I mean, now there's a a company, I forget what they're called, they just came out with prop bets only. And and you have to be eighteen years old, not twenty-one. and all these kids are in on it. And and the and I talked to a kid who just graduated high school last year and he was gradu he started gambling in in eighth grade. and when it first started when the when it started out l legalized, you were able to just to put your ID into the system. So the kids were stealing their their parents' IDs, just putting it in the system and then and then they were they it was they were fine. They were able they pay they passed through. And then the companies caught on that the kids were doing this. So now you have to have your social security number with the ID, and now the kids are finding a way to take the social security number Marc Rogala: Cheers. Jimmy Morris: and do it. but he had said that everybody he knows in high school and college is is doing the prop bets and and prediction markets right now. Kelsey Dunbar: So before the podcast started, we had even told Jimmy that this is gonna be a conversation that's gonna be recurring because of how popular gambling, I mean, obviously it always was, and maybe some of us didn't realize it, but just how much more popular it's getting now. But also this is why we really wanted Him to be a speaker for our Transformation Gap Summit. Cause you don't approach this question as a theory. You lived this for years in the space between knowing what needed to change and then becoming willing to live differently. And that is exactly the theme behind the Transformation Gap Summit. So we're very happy that that you're going to be a part of it. so I I want to leave you with this last question, though. And it's a question that's that we ask most of our guests for whatever it is that they're speaking on. And that's for the person listening. Marc Rogala: So. Kelsey Dunbar: who knows their life is falling apart but still believes they can fix it privately, win the money back, or somehow change without doing anything differently, what do you want them to understand? Jimmy Morris: I want them to understand that it's just so important not to isolate. it's important to just tell somebody. it's you don't have to go through a whole long conversation. speak to somebody, tell somebody what's going on. I think it's really important. isolation dies in the in the light. and I know there's a lot of shame and guilt with what gambling does. But you you know, we're we're sick. This this is a very serious disease. and and it just can't be done alone. As much as you think it can, it can't be. and I think asking for help is one of the best things that anybody can do is just ask for help. Marc Rogala: Okay. Kelsey Dunbar: Very similar things that we tell people all the time. The the best way to get through is start with just being open, honest, and transparent with others and certainly with yourself. So, Jimmy, thank you for trusting us with your story and for showing us the difference between knowing you need to change and becoming willing to live differently. And again, just a reminder, Jimmy is the host of Gambling Recovery, Taking Back Your Life, where gamblers in recovery, family members, therapists, journalists, and advocates. Share honest conversations about addiction, recovery, and reclaiming their lives. You can find the show at Gambling Recovery Podcast.com and on all major podcast platforms. Jimmy is also working on the manuscript, as I said, and we'll share more information about that as it becomes available. And you'll be able to hear Jimmy as premier speaker during the Transformation Gap Summit, which is taking place virtually September 24th through the 29th, and we'll include links to Jimmy's podcast, social media. and the summit in the episode description. And as always, if something in today's conversations made you think of somebody who may be struggling, send them this episode. You never know when hearing someone else tell their truth about their life might give another person permission to tell their truth about theirs. So until next time, remember, you're not broken, you may simply be overloaded, and rebuilding is always possible. Marc Rogala: I think we should probably do this as possible. Kelsey Dunbar: Take care.