Latest / Founder F**K ups / 10 Years Feeding Google and AMEX, But Her Team Kept Walking Out | Yuet Kim Lim, PichaEats
Transcript
- Ben Bagg: Most founders build a company to make money. Kim built one to keep refugee kids in school. In twenty sixteen she and two fellow volunteer teachers started Pika Eats, a food business where refugee chefs who aren't allowed to work legally in Malaysia cook from home and get paid properly for it. Ten years PichaEats has partnered with 45 refugee chefs from seven countries and trained hundreds more in culinary and kitchen ops. And even put food on the table for clients like Google, Amex, and Bank Nagara. But when your whole company runs on heart, it's tempting to run your team on heart too. Kim hired people because they felt right. She treated every partner the same and never put a partner agreement in writing. The result? Bad habits baked into the culture and decisions that got harder and harder to make. Today we're getting into why good intentions don't build a good team. Kim, welcome to the pod. Kim: Thank you, Ben, for having me and hopefully I can give any some valuable insights to what we do. Ben Bagg: Yeah, I'm sure you can. so you were a volunteer teacher at a refugee school when this all started. So to take Kim: Yeah. Ben Bagg: me back, why did you think that a food business was the right way to tackle this Kim: Yeah. Ben Bagg: problem? Kim: we didn't really think much about what product might work. we just, you know, kind of like tasted some food from the community at that point of time and we wanted to try out and see if this idea works for friends around us and so we just packaged the food, send the food to our friends as customers, and then it just took off from So we didn't really like in experiment with or like come up with an MVP per se. Or maybe that that type it was the Ben Bagg: Sure, sure. Kim: VP, yeah. Ben Bagg: time out guys. Lots of you are watching, lots of you are learning from the founder fuckups that we've all gone through, but please do me one little teeny favour and subscribe so that we can keep growing the channel and get more great founders on. Back to the episode. So would you say that you I I guess you were met some of these refugee families, they gave you some food from their Kim: Yeah. Ben Bagg: homeland, their flavours, you tasted it and you're like, wow, this is really good. Let's do something with this, let's help them use Kim: Yeah. Yeah. Ben Bagg: this to create value. Kim: Yeah, totally. Ben Bagg: Nice, nice. And you started this with a few co founders, right? Kim: Yes. Ben Bagg: Okay. And they were also kind of the same, like working in the refu like volunteering as well, and kind of Kim: Yeah. Ben Bagg: like was it like an aha moment you kinda came up with together or did it was like did you go, you've gotta try this food? Like who whose idea was it? Kim: There's no ev everything pr happened pretty organically because the three of us are just like problem solvers. we just want to see Ben Bagg: Yeah. Kim: like value that we could create among the community and we just you know, hate to see refugee kids not being able to get any form of education and so we were discussing, we saw it ourselves, we tasted it ourselves, we just discussed who would do what and we just went on from there. So everything felt very organic so there's no like who came up Ben Bagg: Yeah. Kim: with the idea or like you know finding a product forcefully n none of that happened. Ben Bagg: fair enough, fair enough. Well I'm glad that you're on that sort of same passionate page. And obviously you said to me that one of the big mistakes made was sort of hiring based on feeling. Kim: Yeah. Ben Bagg: what did that actually look like? Maybe you could walk through a hire that felt right in the sort of when you were making the decision but turned out wrong. And you don't have to name names. Kim: Yeah. I I mean we've been doing this for eleven years and have hired like, you know, hundreds of people Ben Bagg: Yeah. Kim: from interns to marketing leaders and and and people that we see of value in Picha. And mm when we started there really isn't a hiring framework. Even until today we're still trying to figure figure out a right framework for each position, each level, each tier. And it we just I think I remember when we hired our first intern, it was my co founder founder's friend. so Ben Bagg: Yeah. Kim: it was a friend and we and we thought that you know, she has some time, so why not we hire her in? And then after that we hired we needed some Ben Bagg: Yeah. Kim: mail, we need needed people, to to to do some heavy work. So we we hired some people who were Ben Bagg: Yeah. Kim: some guys and and we thought, okay, as long as they we can talk to them, we can jive, we can vibe, they call it, and we're like, okay, Ben Bagg: Okay. Kim: you looks like you could possibly do the work. And later on, of course we receive like C C Vs and resumes and we we look at experiences and all but we don't really know how to you know find the right culture fit or like people who can align with the the the attitude we wish for. So we hired a bunch of people and then like the culture was a bit messy here and there and it take it took us time to to find the culture that we really want and and you know refine our hiring criteria and all yeah. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Yeah. No, I can understand that. I think also you're it was sound when you were first describing the people you were hiring, it sounded like more you were hiring people you could hang out with. It was like you Kim: Yeah. Ben Bagg: were starting like a little like cooking club something rather than a business. Kim: Yeah, yeah. Ben Bagg: and obviously a social enterprise typically people who are gonna work in a social enterprise are people who care, right? These people Kim: Yeah. Ben Bagg: who're gonna work you know, they care about the mission. did the mission make it harder to judge whether someone could actually do the job versus they were just sort Kim: Yeah. Ben Bagg: of willing to do the job? Kim: it does. I think there are many times we hire people who wanted to do mission work. but when they want to come in and they realize Ben Bagg: Yeah. Kim: it's not so much of a mission work, it's about running a business at times. then sometimes they get turned off a bit. and then that's why we started you know hiring people by asking them to come in to do a trial session for three to four days. We do pay them Ben Bagg: Yeah. Kim: but we want them to see if it's an outfit or environment that they would throw drive in and also allow us to see that Ben Bagg: Yeah. Kim: okay where they stand between social and profit and Ben Bagg: Yeah. Kim: it's not easy to balance both because even Ben Bagg: Yeah. Kim: our team members today sometimes they do struggle to see where where they where they should lean on more. So Ben Bagg: Yeah. Kim: i it's also taking us co founders time to learn about this. And yes, Ben Bagg: Yeah. Kim: man there are times where we we let our hearts talk more than our brains. and and that that does Ben Bagg: Mm-hmm. Kim: come in a way when you know, when it comes to firing or when it comes to giving a warning letter or when it comes to or Ben Bagg: Yeah. When was the like how like when you when you had to make the first decision to fire someone and this was someone Kim: Yeah. Ben Bagg: who was showing up like cared, right? They wanted to Kim: Yeah. Ben Bagg: help these refugees but they were just not doing a good job. That must have Kim: Yeah. Ben Bagg: been a really difficult difficult to face. How did you how did you tackle that? Kim: I I think I think there are two two types, one who can make it work and one who cannot make it work, and those who are very, Ben Bagg: Yeah. Kim: very willing to learn, they are very willing to see different potential out of them, but those who are And th those who came in for mission work and realised that business is not very much for them, we would always have that transparent talk, you know. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Kim: And and if if they decided to to leave then we will respect that decision. Ben Bagg: Sure. But when you have to get you're asking someone to leave is what I'm asking. Kim: Yeah. Ben Bagg: Like so somebody has joined you to do the mission, they love the mission, they care about the mission, they're they're Kim: Yep. Yep. Ben Bagg: they're connected to the mission, but they're not capable of doing the job. That Kim: Yeah. Yeah. Ben Bagg: must I mean just tackling that kind of conversation is very hard, right? To actually let someone go who cares deeply. I can only imagine Kim: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ben Bagg: that being really hard for you. How how was that experience? Kim: It's it it's a transparent talk. It's really like helping them to understand our Ben Bagg: Yeah. Kim: goals right here and that you know, unfortunately they cannot be part of the journey, but they can possibly be part of our journey in different forms. Example, you could still come back to volunteer, you could still, you know, assist with some of our supply chain, delivery work and all there there's still parts that we can still get them involved but in the main business main the core business it'd be very difficult. So that that talk has to happen. It is difficult, but I always put it in a way that does not put the other person down. we cannot let them feel like you know, my heart is not worth here or like elsewhere. or like that my capabilities are n Ben Bagg: Yeah. Yeah. Kim: not worthy at or i it's not that they're not worthy, they they probably are w they worth more elsewhere. Ben Bagg: Yeah. And I guess I know you mentioned the bad culture or habits started to manifest within the business, obviously because we've Kim: Yeah. Ben Bagg: been hiring a lot on sort of those contentions, people who care about Kim: Yeah. Ben Bagg: the mission as opposed to just the work. what were the first signs that this had happened and how long did it take before you and your co founders started to admit that this was the real problem? Kim: me and my co founder has never exactly recognized ourselves as great leaders. so every time someone leaves, we always question ourselves like, you know, what did we do wrong? Which part did we not, you know, think about or we're we're constantly reflecting on on it. but when we realize that, you know, there's really an issue that people are not staying for a long time. I think that is the the sign that we realize something has to change. Like people were leaving every I think Two years that's the max that they would be and and even with that two years, probably six months they were already like, you know, out of focus, they were not putting in their all already. So you probably will and and in the first three to four months you have them trained up. So you only got the talent on its at its full capacity for one year exactly, right? And and and we asking ourselves Ben Bagg: Yeah. Kim: why because it's very tiring to hire and then train and then have those talks and then let them leave again. so we ask ourselves what needs to be changed and so we met a coach or a trainer and we got her in, we we told her our problems and Ben Bagg: Nice. Kim: she did like a revamp of our values and of course guide us through and coach us through how we should show up as leaders and we ran quite a few training camp per se so that we can train these team Ben Bagg: Hmm. Kim: members but more important is to filter out people who don't want to be here anymore and eventually we found people who are here or who stay are probably the values that we need to continue keeping them Ben Bagg: Mm. Kim: and that's where we continue to grow those kind values and eventually those Ben Bagg: Yeah. Kim: become our criteria when people come in and and when we wanted to do our scaling project we I immediately told my co founder the first person that we had to hire is a HR person if we were to scale. So I immediately got someone in my mind so I I called her and she said yes to it and today she's still with Ben Bagg: Yeah. Kim: with us and and Yeah, then we continue to grow that way. Yeah. Ben Bagg: That's great. It's really interesting that you spotted that because not many peop people would think, Well, you know, it's small business, two years is a pretty good term of service because you Kim: Yeah. Ben Bagg: you know, in a small business you can only grow so much, right? So you typically Kim: Yeah. Ben Bagg: would look for the next career trajectory. But the fact Kim: Yep. Ben Bagg: that you actually took a step back and go, Well, actually, we're really only Kim: Mm-hmm. Ben Bagg: getting good performance for for for a year, but they're with us for a for two, what's Kim: Mm-hmm. Ben Bagg: what's going wrong? And To then go away and look investing, especially in a coach, which can be a bit of a black boxer coach on on exactly how they can help. And you Kim: Yeah. Yeah. Ben Bagg: know, sometimes it's not as tangible. And I'm really proud Kim: Mm-hmm. Ben Bagg: that you looked at culture and like looked at the values. And values are normally really behaviors, right? That people people are living. so I think a Kim: Yeah. Yeah. Ben Bagg: lot of people can learn from that. I think a lot of founders in this part of the world are a resistant to these things. So very good on you. Now since you've made this shift, what's the change? Are people have people started to stay with you longer than two years on average? Kim: Yeah. Ben Bagg: what what's been the impact of this change? Kim: I think the average right now is between three to four years. we're still extending the years hopefully. We've we've seen great results and we've just done Ben Bagg: Sexual. Kim: like yeah, we've just done like a culture setting again just yesterday and trying to make sure that everyone remembers why we do what we do and the habits that we're supposed to keep at it. And I think one thing very very interesting what we did yesterday was to get the people who were the oldest in Picha to the people who were youngest and sharing to each other what Ben Bagg: Hmm. Kim: it used to be like or what's the one thing they saw changing or it had kept to today and for the people who were the newest they were sharing Ben Bagg: Yeah. Kim: what surprised them when they came in so that gave them a lot of perspective as to why our values shift Ben Bagg: Yeah. Kim: or and or goes in depth or expand its spectrum right so that was a very very interesting Ben Bagg: Mm-hmm. Kim: exercise that helped everyone want to mm realize that you know like picture is growing and it's not we can't be stagnant in terms of our Ben Bagg: Yeah. Kim: values and or we can't be stagnant in terms of how the things how we do things as before. So Ben Bagg: What? Kim: yeah. Ben Bagg: Yeah. And what's been the hardest, like what what was the hardest part of that transformation, right? Like going through the coaching, obviously not just looking at changing the habits of the people Kim: Yeah. Ben Bagg: who work for you, but changing your own habits. Like what was the most uncomfortable part of that experience? The uncomfortable truths that you and your co-founder had to face? Kim: Getting people to be more professional from from a small outfit, especially Ben Bagg: Nah. Kim: as a social enterprise, like having like when my Ben Bagg: Yeah. Kim: HR came in the first thing that we had to introduce was an employee handbook, right? And and the people who had stayed Ben Bagg: Mm-hmm. Kim: here for a long time they were like, like why suddenly everything is so strict? Why suddenly we have policies of such, right? and so some people did didn't not agree with those policies and probably they have already left now, but then you have people who could adapt to these new policies and the strictness and the professionalism is the uncomfortable part that a lot of people may not sit in quite well with it. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Okay, I like that. I think as well when you're a y a startup and a young team and and and like you're Kim: Yeah. Ben Bagg: probably hiring younger, passionate individuals, I can see why that sometimes Kim: Yeah. Ben Bagg: the professionalism gets kind of put on a back foot. And building these systems Kim: Yeah, actually. Ben Bagg: are very important, just sort of set expectations, make things very clear. And obviously you're still Kim: Yeah. Ben Bagg: building out your hiring systems, right? So now that you've got this culture structure, it Kim: Yes. Yeah. Ben Bagg: that makes the bedrock of how you recruit. Kim: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ben Bagg: talk to me how that changed the way you attract talent and and hire them and and and qualify whether they they fit the business now. Kim: Yeah. well we recruit a lot online sometimes, but we we're an F and B business, you know. And not just F and B, we're also plus social enterprise. so there are people who come in think thinking in a social way they they may not expect how it looks like in a F and B business. People who come in as a F and B Ben Bagg: Yeah. Kim: background they have not seen the social aspect of things before. so there are a lot of trainings and coaching that has to be done when they come in. but yes, first of all of course we hired a lot online but after that we s we try and get like referrals, we try and like look really scout people who fit the culture and and the way we want things to be done here. So it's not easy to hire Ben Bagg: And how Kim: those Ben Bagg: If I could get something a bit more specific out of you, how did you evaluate how somebody was a culture fit? Was there like a checklist that you had to you went through and like what was that checklist? Kim: Mm-hmm. Ben Bagg: Or was it like you knew what the culture meant and so your gut would be able to answer that? Like because previously Kim: Yeah. Ben Bagg: you were hiring on good intentions. Now that's changed. I'd love to like Kim: Yeah. Yeah. Ben Bagg: I'm hoping that some of our listeners can like Kim: Yeah. Of course. Ben Bagg: practically copy and paste your checklist. Like what how how how do you do it now? Kim: So we have our four value pillars. number one is gratitude and we have respect, collective growth and professionalism and excellence. So they all have to hit four of these values. And on a professional standpoint, we do have like the very regular like when you come in and you you get you get interviewed you have to do like Certain exercises for us to see how you respond to customers, how you manage how you tackle hard situations and understanding your background, and we definitely must do a reference check. We never ever trust everything the interviewee says, like never.