Latest / Chatting with The Experts with Paula Okonneh / Enhancing Cognitive Function and Leadership Through Diet

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Enhancing Cognitive Function and Leadership Through Diet · Chatting with The Experts with Paula Okonneh

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Welcome, everyone, to Chatting with the Experts TV show, hosted by me,
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Paula Okonneh, where I speak with women from Africa, women from the
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Caribbean, women in the diaspora, and these are professional women and
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successful businesswomen as well.
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The mission of this show is to educate, inspire, and encourage
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women worldwide, globally.
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And sometimes I have men on the show, but for the most part, it's women.
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Today's topic is so interesting.
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It's called Cooking for Leadership, Intelligence, and Health.
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And my guest is a culinary anthropologist and medical sociologist.
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Dr. Michelle Beadle Holder explodes the deep connection between food,
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health, and leadership and explains how traditional dietary practices and
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cultural food rituals impact our well being as well as our cognitive function.
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She's a speaker, an author, and a coach, and she's also the founder and CEO
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of the lifestyle company Food at the Center, which helps busy professionals
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create balanced and meaningful lives.
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I could say so much more about her, but why don't I let her come on to the show.
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So welcome to the show Michelle.
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Hi,
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thanks for having me.
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Thanks for joining us today.
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It's my pleasure.
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Sorry, you were saying something?
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I said it's my pleasure.
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Thank you.
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So you're a culinary anthropologist and a medical sociologist.
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Tell us more about that.
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I know some people will be like, what?
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Yeah, big terms.
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So actually I got my PhD in sociology and my concentration was medical sociology.
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So I looked at social determinants of health.
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So instead of just looking at health from a biological perspective, where we think
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about genes or like health issues being passed down by genes, you think about
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how your social environment, history, the politics, all of those economics,
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inequality affects people's overall health and well being, how they fare in life.
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And in terms of the anthropology component, when I was in undergrad,
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I got my degree in sociology and anthropology and over the years have
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had a great interest in food and culture and cooking and culture.
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So I combined those two to look at health in general, especially from a Caribbean
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or an African diaspora perspective.
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Food means a lot to us.
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We know that.
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It's got to taste good.
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It may not have to look the best, but it has to taste good.
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Yes, exactly.
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Exactly.
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Which is part of the reason why I started Food at the Center.
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There are many different reasons why I did, but one of them, one
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of the work that I do is around making healthy food taste good.
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I was brought up in a household where my mom was pretty much the main leader
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in the household and she exemplifies what healthy living and eating is
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like how to prioritize self care.
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And she worked a lot when I was growing up and she had high blood pressure and
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you know, my mom is a pretty, sometimes can be all or nothing, but she definitely
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changed the diet reduced sodium for not only herself, but for the entire family.
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And for me, it was a shocker because anybody in the Caribbean knows
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that we love our saltfish and...
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Yes.
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Breakfast.
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Yeah, we love our saltfish and in Jamaica, where I'm from, you
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know, it's Ackee and saltfish.
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For some others, it's cook up saltfish or, you know, we do
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some variation of saltfish.
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And for those who don't know, it's salted cod and, but your audience would know.
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Yeah.
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So, you know, when she did that, it, it changed the way that I saw healthy eating.
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I saw it as like, not.
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And over the years, as I had my own health issues, I was able to recover from issues
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related to like depression or anxiety.
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I found healing in the kitchen for my own self.
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And it started with like a little herb garden.
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And then a small plot of land and an apartment that I had and that little
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herb garden in the U. S. kind of brought me back to my childhood in Jamaica
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because they cook with a lot of thyme.
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Yes.
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And yeah, I was growing, I discovered these thyme plants.
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I didn't know that they had such variety of thyme.
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And in New York, it can have silver thyme, variegated yellow thyme, English
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thyme, French thyme, you name it.
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There's a whole lot of different varieties.
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And the introduction to thyme, at that point I was going through a divorce.
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So I was pretty sad.
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And growing the garden and cooking helped to bring back joy to my life.
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And it was also a way to reconnect to my culture.
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And eventually I started blending spices.
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And that's a way that I was able to change how I saw healthy food as not
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just something that you had to grit and bear and have no joy with to actual
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activity that can enhance well being personally and for a wide array of people.
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I love that.
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I love how it started with, you know, as you said, a plot of land, planting,
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brought you back to like your childhood.
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And then from there you looked at various ways that you could, you know,
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get different species of a plant, in your case thyme, that brought you,
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you know, I guess it gave you good memories and it was able to heal you
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to the point that you were like, okay, what else can I do with this, right?
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Yeah, I was telling the story and some lady said, Oh, do
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you sell, do you sell spices?
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And I was like, Oh, I do now.
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And I'll figure out how to do it.
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It turned out when I made them, I didn't want to sell them to anyone.
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I wanted to keep them to myself.
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But you know, I'm, you know, opening, you know, for people who know that they exist,
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you know, you can get spices from me, but they're salt-free so that people can
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tailor their own ingredients for their palate and control
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what they put in their food.
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You know what I have to get some of that from you because I always I
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try as much as possible to support support my guests and whatever business
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or mission that they may be on.
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And I have quite a few things in my house from some past guests.
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So I'm going to add yours because I'm trying to eat healthier.
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And I can see the difference.
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You know, I'm eating.
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I started doing the green smoothies.
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And I'm probably veering off the point, but green smoothies are beginning to work
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for me because I put in kale, but I put some other things I like, like, I mean,
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we use oat milk and put some ginger in it.
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Yeah.
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Girl, the thing tastes better than it looks.
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And I'm not hungry.
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You know, I'm not craving for sweets because especially those of us who have
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Caribbean heritage, there's that thing, you know, I was brought up with a lot of,
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not deliberately brought up with a lot of sugar, but sugar was a part of my diet.
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And so, I gravitated towards the sweet juices and the fudge and
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sugar cake and so on and so forth.
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So, seeing as chocolate, I mean, chocolate is one of my best friends, but no longer.
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So anyway, I'm digressing.
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No, no, no, it's all aligned.
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The first time I tried a green smoothie, it was my husband, my current husband.
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He brought me this green juice.
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It's like, have I had green smoothie before?
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And I was like, no.
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And he's like, I'm going to bring it for you.
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He brought it for me and I looked at it and I was like, he had it in a
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jar and I was like, okay, thank you.
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And he was like, you should taste it.
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And I was like, well, I'm going to taste it later.
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Right.
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Cause it did not look appetizing.
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I was like, green.
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And he insisted.
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I tasted it and it was good.
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Like, so you shouldn't judge a book by its cover.
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I actually really like green smoothie and I think I drink it more than he does now.
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Look at that.
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Yeah.
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Look at that.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I started this about four weeks ago and I feel the difference.
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I feel it in my, you know, my knees used to be aching.
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They're not aching as much.
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And you know, it's what you put in.
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I mean, of course it affects every organ of your body.
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So I'm making more of a conscious effort to eat clean.
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So we'll talk about me getting some of your products.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Yeah, it's all about not only.
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Well, some foods, like whole foods, what I discovered when you eat
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high processed food, just from my personal experience you crave more.
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It's like, you're never satisfied.
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Yes.
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When you eat whole foods, there's a point in your body that says,
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okay, stop, you've had enough.
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You're less likely to overeat brown rice.
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You're less likely to overeat avocado.
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We call it pear in Jamaica.
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You're less likely to overeat anything that's minimally processed.
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And once you can change your palate from, if you're used to kind of like a
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high process, well, once you change your palate, you, you start to notice flavors
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that you never noticed before, because there is more sensitivity to taste.
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So now I like when I eat greens, different kinds of green, like kale,
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chard, arugula I can notice the variation in flavor and it becomes like a really
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enjoyable experience to eat whole foods, whereas before it's kind of
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like that doesn't taste good, right?
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But the body can adjust to that, adjust really easily.
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Yes, yes, yes.
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I definitely am enjoying my kale.
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For my green smoothies, I use kale and it's, you know, because
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it doesn't, I don't blend it so that it's completely smooth.
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There's some chunks in it and I add, what's this other thing?
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Oh my God.
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Not alfalfa.
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I can't remember.
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Like microgreens?
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Sorry?
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Microgreens?
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No.
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It'll come to me later.
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Just out of the blue, you'll hear me just say it and you'll be like,
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what relevance does that have?
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It's what I'm trying to remember, but it tastes so good.
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Flaxseeds, that's it.
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Flaxseeds, yeah.
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Grounded flaxseeds.
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Yes, it's so good.
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It's so good.
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So yeah, so you, you know, being a, a culinary anthropologist,
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and, oh my gosh, I love it.
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I love it.
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I love it.
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And a medical sociologist.
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We talked about how food rituals and leadership, cultural rituals
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and leadership are intertwined.
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I thought that was so interesting.
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Tell me how, more about that.
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Well, the other day, I was actually interviewing my mom and a while
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ago, she told me that she used to read to us when we were in
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her womb and I kind of let it go.
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And then I call her and say, there's a story here.
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I wonder what, what she's talking about.
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And so I said, can, can you share the story again?
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And she said, yes.
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And I was like, can I record it?
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And she said, yes.
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And I said, okay, so tell me the story.
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And she said, when she was pregnant, she learned that the baby hears what
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you say and which surprised her.
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And she said that a friend told her that you should read to the baby and
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I was like, okay, what did you read?
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She said the Bible number one, right?
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There were like, my grandmother used to get Reader's Digest.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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And she said she read that and the newspaper or anything that
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she could get her hands on.
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We didn't have a lot of books in the house when we were growing up in Jamaica,
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but there were certain literature that she could read to us and she
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read to us which kind of surprised me.
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And I said, so what was your hope for doing that?
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And she said well, I wanted intelligent children and I know that she didn't
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just want intelligent children.
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She's going to put the work in to give us opportunities that she didn't have.
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And because I'm a twin, first set of two sets of twin, the first of two sets.
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Wow.
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I think I learned that they saw me as the leader in a family and my mom not only,
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you know, read to us, but she ate well so that we would develop in our minds.
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And one of the key tools of a good leader, the thing that the organ that
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a leader uses the most is their brain and making decisions constantly, right?
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And you can even experience decision fatigue at some point.
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And if you're also always really busy, you're skipping meals or you're grabbing
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something that's really convenient, like takeout or some other type of snack.
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And if you're, you know, made me think about my mom and her leadership, right.
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In terms of thinking about the development of the brain of the child
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since birth and thinking about the development of the body since birth.
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But then when you grow older, you might invest in a mind, right?
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They're high achieving people.
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I like to work with high achievers.
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You're investing in the mind constantly, personal development and professional
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development, all of those things.
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But you may be the, this not investing as much in your body and there's research
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that shows that there's a connection between the brain, brain and the gut.
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So they call the gut as like the second brain.
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Yes.
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I heard that recently.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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Like a second brain.
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And if you're not, you're feeding the mental brain, like the one in
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your head, like with information and knowledge improving yourself, but
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are you doing the same for the gut?
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Yeah.
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And those two things kind of go hand in hand and it's not that
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negligence out of our part.
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I think the research didn't show those connections.
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We didn't know that those two things were working hand in hand, but some
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of the things that I want to share is that, you know, prioritize self care.
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Even if you don't take care of yourself, think of like how feeding yourself will
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enhance the goals that you have for your profession if you want to get that.
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You wanna stay sharp, right?
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You were saying even now that you notice you're not experiencing aches
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and pains, but also when you eat well.
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You have better mind, like mental clarity.
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You're less lethargic.
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Yes, for sure.
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So you're making, I guess what they say, feeding the temple.
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Yes.
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So that sets you up for the best that life has to offer.
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And then think about as a leader, there are others that are watching you, right?
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Mm hmm.
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And
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the connection between physical health and brain health.
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Also, they're showing that there's like research on therapeutic like
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culinary therapy where people are like cooking in addition to getting
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like talk therapy and that enhances their wellbeing, their mental health.
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So there's a lot of innovation that's happening in public health when it
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comes to the connection between food and, you know, better quality of life.
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Longevity of life by saying, let's go into the kitchen instead of only
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reading the labels on a package or have an outsourcing home cooking to someone
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else, like you have Uber Eats and all of those things since COVID, right?
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We're much more reliant on takeout to go back into the kitchen and think about,
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well, can the kitchen be our laboratory?
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Can the kitchen be our medicine cabinet?
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Because what food is medicine, but not all food is medicine, right?
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Some food is poison.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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And you made a good point there because you know, with takeout, yes.
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Okay.
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Sometimes we do need the convenience of having takeout, but you are
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not aware of what is in that food, you know, people put all sorts of
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ingredients, it may not be bad.
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But it may not be good for you, you know?
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Right.
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Like there's some people like I remember when my daughter suffered from so many
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allergies at one point and she couldn't eat certain things that I could eat and
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those some of the certain things that she couldn't eat would have been good
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for her, but she was just allergic to it.
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Right.
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But, you know, when we started cooking at home that she had more
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control over what went into her food.
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Yes,
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and
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Yeah, it's really interesting.
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For me, it's kind of a full circle because I grew up not liking cooking.
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I didn't like it.
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You know, I learned, my dad taught me how to cook and he believed that.
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He was preparing me to be a good wife and mother, and I
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was like, I don't want to cook.
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I'm going to marry a chef.
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Leave me alone.
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I want to stay in these books, you know.
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That was my priority, and I learned the skill, I begrudgingly learned the
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skill, but now, as I get older, I see the value, like how it's helped me.
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And reframing how I see cooking as not something that I just do for
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others, but something that I can do for myself and cooking is my self care.
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So, yeah.
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You know, that's very interesting.
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You said reframing how you looked at cooking.
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Let's expand on that a little bit.
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Like, your dad was looking at it as a skill to prepare you
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to be a good wife and mother.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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You're saying in 2025, we should look at it as preparing the person to,
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you know, be healthy overall, healthy brain, healthy gut, healthy person.
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Then you can go out and be the best version of yourself.
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Yeah.
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And also healthy relationships.
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Yes.
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Right.
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The dining table is a sacred space that people come together and they
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connect and now we have all these technology, you know, even the very
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culture of takeout means that you're eating in another room and it's worse
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than this, you may not be at a table.
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Yes.
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Or TV dinners were kind of created, you're eating, watching a device, watching
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some technology and you're not really connected on with your food, but you're
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also not connecting with each other.
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And so we may be in a space together and still feel lonely and isolated
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and go bringing back some of those, you know, old time ways of cooking and
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cooking being in the kitchen, having the kitchen be the center of the home,
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having a meal together, breaking bread.
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And finding out how is this person doing and you can look at them.
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You can't lie.
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It's harder to lie.
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Around the table, right?
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Yeah, right.
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It's harder to lie.
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If we're looking eye to eye and I can watch your body language.
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You know what I mean?
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I could probe.
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I can sense if something's going good or bad.
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And, you know, they're saying that children, like adolescents, when they
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eat together with their family, that they fare better in terms of mental health.
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So, and I think even as you get older, right, social isolation is a major
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issue and having like intergenerational mealtime Allows everyone to benefit.
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Yeah.
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And you say that and I get flashbacks to when at one stage of my life, my mom
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moved back home with all five of us and we lived at home with her mom and dad.
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And we used to have lunch 12 to 1.
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Everybody was picked up from school.
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You came home, you ate lunch and there's so many long standing jokes that come
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from, you know, my grandfather would say something and it's still at the
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dinner table, at the lunch table.
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We didn't really do dinner.
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It was lunch and, you know, talked about the foods that we ate then
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when I thought but it gave us some connectivity, some, you know, there was
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that bonding that went on at that table.
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Which I have to admit, I was... if my children could come on the show
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they'll say, but mom, you didn't do it.
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No, I didn't, you know?
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Yeah, yeah.
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But the families were bigger then.
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Yeah.
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So when we gathered around the table, it was a bigger crowd and bigger setting
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and lots of things were talked about.
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So
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Yeah, I mean, you do the best that you can and I think that's why celebrations
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like Thanksgiving, which, you know, can be stressful and could have social dynamics
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that don't work out, but they're like sacred celebrations that people have.
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And they bring people, bring families together.
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Cookouts, potlucks yeah.
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People talk about like how, I guess we covered it, how, you know, the
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challenges, modern living, the challenges and that bring that, you know, break
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down all our cultural connection.
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But as you mentioned, you can still kind of vary it.
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I mean, you can ensure that you meet together maybe once a week, or like
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you said, cookouts, thanksgiving.
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That is something that, you know, I know it's become commercialized,
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but still it's a way that we can still bring family together.
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Yeah.
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For meals.
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Mm hmm, yeah.
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And I mean, it's not all great, and then, why, the reason why takeout is
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so popular, it's because it's work.
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Cooking is labor.
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It's work.
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It is.
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You know, I'm not kidding.
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You know, you have to be committed.
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it has to connect to your core value for it to be sustainable because
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the options are so much more easier to kind of, we have options now,
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whereas before people didn't have takeout, they had to cook, right?
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If you didn't cook, you didn't eat.
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So you have to be clear about what's my motivation for cooking and how does
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it align with what I consider valuable?
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And so it makes all that labor bearable.
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It's hard, but it can also be enjoyable.
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Right?
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There are a lot of people that love to cook.
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It's kind of their therapeutic, you know, me time.
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And for others, it's drudgery.
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But I say that there's a role for everyone because historically cooking was a shared.
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Yes.
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It wasn't just one person doing everything, you know, so.
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So Michelle, you won't believe we've been talking for almost 27 minutes.
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Okay.
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Because it's, you know, they said time flies when...
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Hopefully, I got to all your questions.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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But there's one question I want to ask you about.
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Because I know that you have this company Food At The Center.
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What can you tell us, or what can you leave with those who are going
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to be listening at a later time, but of course we have Q& A immediately
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afterwards so people can ask you this question, but so this is for the record.
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Remember to think about any healthy, boosting foods that we can put into
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our modern, you know, we can get practice with nowadays in the kitchen.
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What would you suggest?
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I know you talked about when we eat food whole, as opposed to processed,
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then we have less of a craving for, you know, more processed food.
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Well, what's one, one tip that you can share with us?
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Well, I say get familiar with herbs and spices.
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Okay.
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Because it can transform the way any food tastes.
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And so, for example, I'll give you some of my top favorites.
27:05
Now, some people might not like them or not, but I would say smoked paprika.
27:11
Okay.
27:12
Good.
27:13
Like if you're trying to reduce your sodium intake.
27:17
Sprinkling a little bit of smoked paprika, even like you
27:20
would like at the dinner table.
27:22
Sprinkle some.
27:24
What else?
27:25
That's one of my favorites.
27:26
Ha ha ha.
27:28
That's a staple.
27:29
Cinnamon is also a really nice one.
27:32
In terms of food,
27:37
I say, I wouldn't give a suggestion, a recommendation.
27:39
I would say pay attention to what you like and what likes you back.
27:45
That would be,
27:48
people are so different, right?
27:51
And I always,
27:54
I'm off the mind that like the standard recommendations are just recommendations.
28:01
They work for some, and they don't work for others.
28:05
So I say take back your power and pay attention to what you love, what
28:10
brings you joy, what makes your body feels good, like pay attention to that.
28:15
And then there are things that make you feel sluggish.
28:20
This is kind of like where you bring the mindfulness into eating because
28:26
it's very hard to say do this or do that because we're so different.
28:30
I love that.
28:32
Pay attention to what you're eating.
28:34
And yes, that is a good note to end on because I know for myself that I
28:41
discovered that if I drink use too much ginger, I start to feel very lightheaded.
28:46
So now I pay more attention, like, yes, ginger is good, but in what quantities?
28:51
Yes.
28:53
Even if it's, you know, you go to the health store, look at what the
28:56
ingredients are, because they may be natural ingredients, but they're still
29:00
chemical, they're organic chemicals.
29:02
Right.
29:02
And you know what's going on in your body and what you need to avoid.
29:07
It may all be healthy, but it may still not be good for you.
29:09
That's what I've noticed.
29:11
Now that I'm done with health journey.
29:14
Yeah, absolutely.
29:15
And don't feel guilty or pressured to follow anybody's... when they tell
29:20
you this is the, you know, like the gold standard and this is like law.
29:29
No, trust
29:33
yourself because I think the health industry has become one
29:39
that they tell you, these are the top, this, that, that, that, like
29:43
they're the authority on what works.
29:47
And it's useful to get information, but I say like recipes are not a rule book.
29:54
They're just like a guidance to how to cook.
29:57
Similarly, I would say for any health recommendation that people
30:03
give to you, you are the authority, because when you pay attention to
30:09
your body, it helps to inform you on like what will work and what won't.
30:14
So true.
30:16
So true.
30:17
So Michelle, if someone watching this later on wants to get in touch with you.
30:24
I assume you're online, right?
30:25
How can they...
30:26
Yes.
30:27
. I'm online.
30:28
I am @michellebeadleholder at Instagram.
30:31
Okay.
30:33
My website is foodatthecenter.com.
30:36
I'm mostly on Michelle Beadle Holder at Instagram.
30:39
I'm also on LinkedIn if people wanna connect.
30:43
Yes.
30:44
Lovely.
30:44
Lovely.
30:45
And for those of you who have listened to this show, if you would like to be a
30:50
guest on the show or know more about the show, reach out to me on the contact form
30:56
on my website, chattingwiththeexperts.
30:58
com.
30:59
I am also on LinkedIn as Paula Okonneh.
31:02
I am on Instagram.
31:05
I hold there is at chat_experts_podcast, and I am on Facebook as Paula Okonneh.
31:14
I always have to think about the Instagram one on Facebook.
31:19
And so now we'll open up the floor to those who want to join us and
31:24
actually ask questions to my phenomenal guest, Dr. Michelle Beadle Holder.
31:31
Thank you so much, Michelle.
31:33
Thanks for having me.