Latest / Recruiting Evolution / Industry Spotlight | Beyond Cold Calling: The New Rules of Recruiting Communication with Erich Hugunin, VP of Sales- Ringover

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Industry Spotlight | Beyond Cold Calling: The New Rules of Recruiting Communication with Erich Hugunin, VP of Sales- Ringover · Recruiting Evolution

• Eric [00:00:00]: I always say, you know what? I don't cold call anybody. I do think cold calling is dead. I warm call them. I'm a big fan of texting. I worked at them called text us for 10 years. Right. We're kind of the pioneers in the staffing space. I text, I LinkedIn message everybody and then I say, hey, Kortney, you're free for a call. Eric [00:00:16]: So then the candidate or who person I'm trying to sell to, they can set up the time. Yeah, I'm free at 3. Kortney Harmon [00:00:22]: Hi, I'm Kortney Harmon, director of industry relations at Crelate. This is the Industry Spotlight, a series of the Full desk experience, a Crelate original podcast podcast. In this series, we will talk with top leaders and influencers who are shaping the talent industry, shining a light on popular trends, the latest news, and the stories that laid the groundwork for their success. Welcome back to another episode of the Full Desk Experience Industry Spotlight. Kortney Harmon [00:00:54]: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Full Desk Experience. I am so excited for today's conversation because we're diving into something that every recruiting and staffing firm is wrestling with right now. And it's communication. And I don't mean just the tools, but I mean the whole picture. How firms are actually reaching out to candidates, clients, what's frankly working, what's broken, and where things are headed in this AI market that we're in today. So today's guest, Eric, is from Ringover, and they've really set at the intersection of communication technology and the staffing and recruiting world. And Eric has a front row view of what's going on out there. Kortney Harmon [00:01:32]: So I can't wait, Eric, for you to join us. Tell us your perspective. So thank you so much for taking the time out of your obviously very busy schedule to be with me today. Eric [00:01:41]: Absolutely. Thanks, Kortney. Thanks for having me on here. Real excited about this opportunity. Chat with you today. Kortney Harmon [00:01:45]: I love it. Well, Eric, tell our audience. We have a variety of audience, but tell us a little bit about your role there, Ringover, how you work with recruiting and staffing industry day to day. Eric [00:01:56]: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I've been in the industry for 18 years this August, always on the vendor side, never on the recruiter side. I joined Ringover actually a year ago this past Tuesday. Kortney Harmon [00:02:06]: Happy anniversary. Eric [00:02:07]: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, a little bit about Ringover, what we do, you know, we're a traditional omnichannel communication platform. So what I mean by that, it's your voice, it's text messaging, WhatsApp, Google chat, all within one platform. And then our AI sits on top of that, right? Everybody, like you said, everybody has AI now, but ours is the ability to sit over top of that and then pull that data back into solutions like relate. So we sit over top that and really kind of enhances everything that you're doing and sees what the entire organization and how they're communicating. So I think of it as an omnichannel communication platform and AI that empowers that and pulls out all the keynotes and data that you need on what your sales team, your customer service team and everyone is doing within your organization and your recruiters do. Kortney Harmon [00:02:47]: I think it's amazing. I love it. And we, we have talked to so many people using your tool, so it was only fitting to bring you on the show. So we're super excited. From where you sit, what's the biggest communication breakdown that you see between recruiters and candidates or maybe even clients as they're trying to have those conversations because you see things a little differently from your perspective? Eric [00:03:06]: Absolutely. It's actually something I, I've go inside battle with. I had this conversation internally with my own marketing team and it's communicate with the contact with the candidate on their terms. And so that's often confusing to people. What's that mean? Okay, well, whether youth, AI outreach, recruiter, reach out marketing drove a lead to you, how we came in contact with that person. Again, contact out of business or your candidate, if you texted them and they text you back and you just immediately call them, that's super disruptive, right? Communicate on the means that they ask. So even just that very beginning of how you start talking with someone, communicate on their terms, ask what their preference is. If they say they want to email or use LinkedIn, well, use that channel and then set up the call when you need it. Eric [00:03:51]: And it's hard for me. I sell voice, right. And I always say, you know what? I don't cold call anybody. I do think cold calling is dead. I warm call them. Like, I'm a big fan of texting. I worked at gonna Call text us for 10 years, right. We're kind of the pioneers in the staffing space. Eric [00:04:05]: I text, I LinkedIn message everybody. And then I say, hey, Kortney, are you free for a call? So then the candidate or who person I'm trying to sell to, they can set up the time. Yeah, I'm free at three. It's not intrusive. We used to say, is that cold calls and texting, they're intrusive. I'm like, they're intrusive, but they're also Effective. It's both. Kortney Harmon [00:04:24]: Yeah. Eric [00:04:25]: And so you think about that. The biggest breakdown is communicate how that person wants to. And so somebody just have to stop back. Ask marketing. Ask where they. How you want to reach out when you're communicating with them. Ask for me to text you about this. You want me to LinkedIn message you? Facebook. Eric [00:04:39]: Depending on the generations now, like, it could be Snapchat. I mean, I don't know where it's going to. It's changing, right? Depends on the generation. I think I've aged out of that. But text is mine. Yeah. Like, they're like, I'm on Twitch. I don't even know what that is. Eric [00:04:52]: But it's changing, right? We have to think of that demographic you're reaching out to and what do they prefer? And so it's really important for us really think about that. That's the first thing. And then the next biggest breakdown is how do we get that data back and how is that all coming back into our system? Because. Great. I had an awesome conversation with Kortney. I don't have any notes on it. I had that yesterday with the chief intelligence officer at a firm and I. Somebody I've known forever, I did on my cell phone and I was like, crap. Eric [00:05:17]: I didn't record any of that. It was a 30 minute talk. We talked about his golf, his family. Kortney Harmon [00:05:21]: Oh. Eric [00:05:22]: Then we also talked about a lot of stuff they want and need said. I'm trying to remember back what happened. And that's what happens to all of us. Right. You don't want to break that. But it's also like, how can you get that information back in your system if it's not in there, it doesn't exist. As leaders, we tell our sales team, if it's not in the system, it doesn't exist. Didn't happen. Eric [00:05:36]: So that's your breakdown is again, connect on their terms and just get the data back. Kortney Harmon [00:05:40]: I love it. You think you say generational. It's like, you know, it used to be like, how do you communicate with boomers? And now these millennial people, now we're becoming the boomers. But it's just interesting to see how anyone wants to communicate. And let's face it, communication is getting harder by the day because I don't know about you, I wake up to spam emails saying, my parents met in your small town and at this restaurant, which it's all fake, it's all fictitious, but, like, it's harder to break through those pieces more than ever. So if you get a signal, stay with that Signal. And you're right, if it isn't in the system, it did not happen. I talked to many recruiting firms that have said I eventually started pulling commissions. Kortney Harmon [00:06:21]: If they didn't want to put it in, I didn't do that. So we don't want that to happen to anyone else. And I'm so thankful that I don't have to recruit in the day of Twitch or whatever you just said, because I don't even know what that is either. Oh boy, it's a scary place out there. Obviously you talked about the breakdown. Recruiters are competing for candidate attention and client attention. Let's face it, with every outreach in someone else's inbox, whether it's speed to the candidate, speed to the client, cutting through the noise, what's working for the best firms at this point? Eric [00:06:53]: Yeah, sure. I call it all bound. And so it's really again back to the same thing. It shouldn't just be one thing, right? Shouldn't just be phone calls. And when I joined here, like it was just calls. And I was like, guys, it should be all bound. It should be all of these, right? I care about how much outreach you do a day. It's the numbers game still. Eric [00:07:11]: It's consistency still. Like that's always going to exist, right? And so it's more about just being consistent about your outreach. And personally, like I said, I like to multi threaded. I LinkedIn connect with them first. Once I do that, then I'll call them. Biggest piece, don't just call someone and not leave a voicemail, right? One of the biggest things right now is we're getting marked for spam. Android did it forever. IPhone rolled it out last year. Eric [00:07:36]: Spam filtering is a lot easier. There's simple things like just leaving a voicemail. Hey Kortney, I'm calling you about this position. Then once I do that, I send her a text message. Hey Kortney, I just left you a voicemail about this position. Are you free to chat? So now I've done like three different points of contact to that person. Hopefully they got my LinkedIn connection first. Then I call them, they got my voicemail. Eric [00:07:58]: So it's almost like four, right? Because we're not answering phone calls. We don't know but it's like a hard. Unless it's my kids school or something like that where I'm like, it says Edgewater because of the town there. And I'm like, oh, he got in trouble. Other than that, I don't answer voicemail. I immediately listen to it and then I'll text them back, you're free to chat later. Right. That's what I generally do. Eric [00:08:17]: And so that's my method and that's what I think is most effective. Phone calls are still very effective. It's just how you do it. Right. Because often we come across recruiters like, well, I'm getting marked for spam. Like, let's go look at your habits. You called that person 10 times in two days and you didn't leave a voicemail. If you got 10 calls from the same number, would you call that? Well, yeah, but I have an important job for them. Eric [00:08:39]: Well, leave a voicemail or text them, you know, or. Or WhatsApp them, depending on your market, who you're reaching out to. So again, it's. Yeah, it's changing, but it's just change up what you've done. What you did is not going to work in the future. Right. And that's the ever evolving part of recruiting. And the companies that are doing are being successful at it. Eric [00:08:57]: They're evolving with that too. Kortney Harmon [00:08:59]: And it's moving fast. Everything is moving very fast. I love the term all bound. Ironically, we use that in our marketing team as well. So I love that you use all bound. That is amazing. And you're not wrong because I do a virtual event. And we actually had someone from Haley Marketing on a marketing agency and he mentioned their recent, I would say a case study or a survey. Kortney Harmon [00:09:23]: And he said, it's now 72 touches to actually get to a phone call. And when he said, I'm saying 72, it's not you're calling that person 72 times. It's whether you're texting them, you're writing them on LinkedIn, you're commenting on one of their social posts. But 72 is a hard far right turn from the 10 to 12 that you and I dealt with whenever we were in the industry. Eric [00:09:44]: Yeah. And that was. I had a similar conversation with Sebastian Demas, our cmo. Kortney Harmon [00:09:48]: Yeah. Eric [00:09:48]: And he's in Europe. They have a lot of different compliance things like that. He's worked for American companies. And look at our advertising budget position, like, oh, my God, why are we spending so much there? He's like, you have to have so many different touch points. Right. It might have been them seeing something when they're on Facebook or when they're on I Love Cooking, I want Food Network. Or even now. Right. Eric [00:10:06]: With AI searching something like 50% of all data and AI is coming from Reddit. So what are you doing on Reddit now? Right. You want to show up in a ChatGPT search, a Gemini search, a cloud search. What are you doing on Reddit? And it's not just advertising on there because Reddit's like social sharing. You'll get crushed. If you just go in there and start blasting out your stuff, they're going to be like, shut you down. People give you negative comments. So it's like, how can you even get into those levels to try to optimize up within there? So it's really changing. Eric [00:10:34]: The old days of SEO and skyscraper marketing, that is changing and evolving really quickly. Right. And so it's at that level for your touch points. Kortney Harmon [00:10:41]: Yeah. Eric [00:10:42]: Like, are your sales team jumping into Reddit combos? Are they on? Obviously the obvious ones within the staffing board. So it's a lot of things. You have to really change how our outreach has worked. Kortney Harmon [00:10:51]: I just recently got into Reddit and I have never done it and I'm like, what is the karma score? And what is like. It's like a whole new world. I feel like my kid's teaching me something and he's 11, he's not on Reddit. But still. But it's a whole new world and it's changing. So you're not wrong. I think it's very interesting. Let's talk ghosting. Kortney Harmon [00:11:11]: Obviously, this industry has always had a problem with ghosting. This is not a new pain point right now. But candidates, clients, and even vendors are really feeling the pain right now of ghosting. What do you think is actually driving it? You mentioned spam. Is there a fix to this? Do you have a solution? Do you have any thoughts behind it or feelings? Eric [00:11:32]: Yeah, I mean, on the spam side. Right. Spamming's changed within all forms of outreach. It's much easier to mark for spam. So it's again, making sure they recognize your number. You're texting your calling from, recognize your email. You don't show up as just like unknown contact. And again, you'd have to do that through making sure you're verified information, making sure your numbers are verified, that you're registering it. Eric [00:11:53]: Similar, like on LinkedIn. Don't just blast to someone you're not connected with. Use your connections when you're reaching out, those are going to get ignored right away. Maybe ghosting is happening right now too, because they're kind of calling it the great state. Right. People aren't making changes. We see this. It's. Eric [00:12:07]: It's the ebb and the flow staffing. If you've been in it for a while, this is the piece. And so I think that's another part of it. But as that pain point changes for me, we've seen a lot more outreach. People are doing two, three acts. But you have to be careful too. I spoke with a staffing firm and they were using an AI agent for outreach when they got this huge improvement. Well, the problem was they use it just for outreach for the way they're doing their search and match for that outreach. Eric [00:12:31]: Before they did it, they were doing just like, just specific Ruby on Rails developer, that type of thing. And they're submitting the wrong candidate then as well to the client. So then these candidates stop saying I don't want to work with you. You're submitting me like five jobs. I didn't get a single interview. What it was is they needed not Ruby on Rails, they need a slightly different code set. Wolff actually knew that, oh, this person could do both of those and then submit it with that. Then they would have got ghosted, they'd get higher placement rates. Eric [00:12:56]: It's one of those things with the auto apply things that have happened with AI IT also then if they don't have the right match criteria, it's going to disappoint candidates which are going to make them answer less as well as the clients can be disappointed. So it's like using these tools in the right manner and if you have the wrong data or data inputs, it's going to give you the wrong output. And so that's what I think is causing some of this ghosting is you're getting submitted to a job that you never would have been a good fit for, but there's other job you got looked over on even though you have the right skill sets for it. And so it's like really use those search and match tools to like broaden that search and help you get what are other jobs that may be similar to this? What are other skill sets they have that could be similar when you're doing that? So then you're simple. It used to be the prompts a year ago and now it's changing that and it's using more of a phrase. And so it's when I think about it, it's how do you evolve with our outreach? And it's more like this again back to change. What we've been doing doesn't work anymore. So we have to make these kind of adaptation. Kortney Harmon [00:13:52]: I look at it from a staffing perspective or a recruiting perspective, like I was a trainer for years and it's literally you looked at your ratio reports while you submitted so many candidates and you only got so many interviews. What's your placement to interview ratio? And that just made me think, this whole sourcing to interview ratio is different. And a lot of that you may not have control over or how you're doing it. And it's literally changing the operations and how you're actually thinking about even running your business going forward. Because if you're doing things that you did five months ago, it's different. Eric [00:14:23]: Exactly. And back on the sourcing side, even, it comes back to, like, in an era of this. Are you doing referrals? Kortney Harmon [00:14:30]: Yeah. Eric [00:14:30]: That within your organization. Right. Every one of my staff. Right. My team has changed over 20 years ago. I have one person that was there before. That's because I had worked with her in a prior organization, work together. Everyone else came through referral. Eric [00:14:42]: I didn't hire a single person. I either didn't know through a partner or got introduced to me. So it's like, what does your referral program look like? And then second, what are you doing for reference checks? That's a big deal. And reference checks can often generate more revenue for you. Right. Get you a new client or more candidates for other positions. So it's also thinking about that when you're looking at your candidates, like, look in your internal database, use your network that you built out. That's what makes you unique. Eric [00:15:05]: Right. And use that to help with that side of as well. Did not get ghosted because. Hey, Kortney, I got referred to you by Jessica. Oh, well, Jessica and I worked together. We loved it. Okay, I should probably take that call. So it also changes that approach of how you're doing that outreach too. Kortney Harmon [00:15:19]: And we look at things as an easy button. Like you said, the easy apply. But those were like the. I don't want to say old school, because it's not even old school. Those were like the original OG easy buttons that we've lost track of that made our business success successful. Eric [00:15:34]: Yeah. Kortney Harmon [00:15:34]: Yeah, I love that you mentioned that. Because I love referrals and references. They're like one of my favorite, easiest ways for business. So I love. Well, we obviously were talking to so many channels, calls, text, email, LinkedIn. You mentioned WhatsApp. You mentioned Twitch, which I don't know how. You mentioned Reddit. Kortney Harmon [00:15:49]: How are firms managing outreach without burning out their teams or overwhelming their candidates? Do you think there's a balance between that? Eric [00:15:56]: I do. And I think that kind of comes back to that. All bound. Don't say you have to do it this way. I always say take the end goal. Right. Hey, we Know what your sales quota is. We know how many candidates you need to place in a month and work back from it. Eric [00:16:09]: For me, I personally was never the best at cold calling or outreaching. I use my network so I was always like, I'm going for the highest conversion percentages. If I want to sell X or close this many deals, I want to do the least amount of outreach possible to get there and above it. And so mine was using my network. And so for some people, it's a volume game. I have a guy on my team, he's a volume guy. He loves it, he loves doing that. Like it excites him. Eric [00:16:32]: Talked to him this morning, he's like, I added 80 companies and 10 contacts in each this week. And I was like, that is overwhelming. But that's how he does it. And it works. And so it's again, I think it's more of an all bound. It's always good to see like what's the end result you're trying to go for here. If you just say, hey, this is your number, go do it. You're painting the same picture for everybody. Eric [00:16:52]: And I heard this yesterday. We all think we're very unique individuals. Even though ironically we're very similar. People think they're overly unique. So if you want to excite a recruiting team, you want to excite salespeople. Like, let them be unique even though we're not that unique. Let them be unique and have their own ways and give them their own control. I learned my mom's a professor, she's a therapist, so is my wife. Eric [00:17:13]: And the other day my son was, yeah, ironic. We're on a walk and I'm like telling my son, no, don't do that. My mom just let him make some of his own decisions. Let him be the leader on our walk. So that same thing, let them run their own book of business, let them be their own leaders and just help them guide as good coaches and managers. Our goal is to get them to the end result, right? How can we help them work? We make improvements and small changes to get to there. So we want to prevent burnout. We know attrition is huge in this happening, 30 to 40%. Eric [00:17:40]: So there's also adding in coaching tools. How can you layer that in? What are the tools you can use that'll help upskill them faster? Show their successes where they're being successful, not where they can make changes as well. Kortney Harmon [00:17:51]: I love it. I love that both your wife and your mother are therapists. So that could lead to interesting conversations, Eric [00:17:59]: analyzing Me all the time, I'm sure. Kortney Harmon [00:18:02]: Oh that's great. We talked about AI and you even talked about AI in the use for it for your use cases there at Ringover. Obviously AI is being really thrown at every problem in recruiting right now. At least that's what I hear at my conferences. Like it's like the magic button. But we don't have a lot of understanding sometimes. Where do you think AI genuinely helps those workflows, those processes, the outcomes and where do you think firms are over relying on it? Eric [00:18:29]: It's interesting. I did a podcast I think it was two weeks ago now with David Falwell, president owner of Staff Controls and Saving Hub and then Mark Hummel Toro and David does annual report Staffing hub state of staffing. It's called fast growth, slow growth. Who's seeing the most. And guess what? There's a direct correlation the companies that have implemented AI effectively across multiple parts of their company. And I'm not talking generative, right? Yeah, I use generative. I use AI to figure out my recipes, my arguments with my wife who's a therapist now it thinks me it's not that type of it. Like how using it with an agentic and the people that have actually implemented it and he asked different questions of the layers, the ones that have fully implemented it into their process. Eric [00:19:08]: They saw somewhere between 10 and 20% growth last year and people that kind of implemented it. Yeah, they saw a little growth. The people who hadn't really yet they were shrinking, contracting. I can it to the 2020 automation boom. Right. We all want to work in the office. We had to let go of teams, shrink our staff and so it was like how can we make up for that so we don't upset clients. How long is this going to be? And so everybody's adopting automation. Eric [00:19:32]: That was the big thing and that's what's happening now. The problem is like you said, is what AI do I use right. And where do I start? And so into your same point, what are we over relying on? Auto applies right. Like we said earlier because it doesn't really match that well often unless you get a tool that actually pre screens finds similar matches and you know can go that way with it. And so I think there's a lot there and we take a step back and same thing with their sales team. What is your end goal? And back back into that right Efficiency is great. Are we using this for sourcing more? What are we using it for? Then find the right staff right tool to help within that stack. Kortney Harmon [00:20:09]: Yeah, well Talk about Ringover. So whenever you talk about AI, the AI piece that's in there, tell us a little bit about that correlation and how it's helping businesses. Eric [00:20:19]: Yeah, for sure. So if we think about like conversational intelligence, that's what I focus on. Right. We're in my opinion kind of like middle of the funnel, so to speak. Not top of funnel, middle funnel. There's a lot of tools after that, middle office, back office, et cetera. We're middle of funnel in that candidate or context, lifecycle or journey. Right. Eric [00:20:37]: And I think that's how we think about all of our tools is where is it at within your journey of who's coming through, including your recruiters or salesperson. And so we're capturing all the information with those conversations, whatever media you're having and pulling that back into your system of record. And you know, a note takers, table stakes. You got a note taker on this, have a note taker on every meeting we're on. Right. You have to have a minimum, have that. Right. Having note takers taking that. Eric [00:21:01]: I don't have a notebook anymore. I did a training the other day and I had to use the back of a wire money receipt. I didn't even have a notebook so I stopped taking notes. Hopefully I didn't show the check number on it. I use that because I was like I don't have a notebook on my desk because I stopped taking them. Right. And so it's pointing that data back. But great, you pulled back a hour long conversation. Eric [00:21:22]: And so if you're using AI within your ATS or CRM, you're going to do a lot of data, scan through all that, plot the key points. Like our strength for example is we're pulling out the exact conversation. It's going to listen to it, listen to that call. Am I doing a pre screen or they doing a sales call? Was I doing a reference call? What is that call? And we're going to categorize and push that data back as structured data into the system. If we push it back into Creelate, for example, it allows Creelate's AI to pick it up and move faster because in the end speed to placement, speed to close is still really important. And as we all know, automation worked back in the day because you had clean data. AI is actually 10x that if you don't have good data, you're going have a really bad output. And so like our tool for example is pointing back the correct structured data. Eric [00:22:02]: It can alert you. As a manager, I have alerts set up to somebody says cancellation, I need to know about it. And that takes me right to where that call was, right where that meeting was. Same thing, extension pricing, you can set up those types of things. So it's a coaching perspective too. We often think about, oh, how is it helping? It's not just big brothering. If you're using a tool for just big brothering, you're not a good manager. You're past that point right now. Eric [00:22:25]: You need to really rethink your process. So it's also, how can I coach and upskill my team? And that's where it's going. So I really think about it as a coaching tool more so than just a data capturing tool. And so the goal here is to upskill our team and how can we help them be more successful? Kortney Harmon [00:22:41]: So I love it. You said AI notetaker, table stakes, conversation intelligence and call analytics. Is there full adoption then that or do you still think it's. Eric [00:22:51]: Yeah, okay, so it's. I call it the. Your side told me it's a 30, 30, 30 rule, right? 30% of employees will adopt it and like super embrace it. 30% kind of will and 30% go, I don't need to do that. Either they're the I've done it just fine without it or they're new and they just have no idea what they're doing. And some of those new ones are the opposite. They're your heavy adopters. And so I'd say it's a mix. Eric [00:23:15]: And the thing with all technology, it's something like 50%. If you got like 50% adoption of any tool, you're actually successful. You get that 75 mark, it's wow, they're actually really using this. You know, we look for anything like a red flag is 25% and below that, if they're not using it, below that you're sub 10%. We got a problem. They're not going to continue to use the technology. And so it's. We kind of do a health score off of that too. Eric [00:23:38]: Like how much are you using it? And really seeing that adoption of a solution. That's something you should look at all your tech. You're looking at like what's your adoption levels, right? And see what are you really using. So if you're looking at consolidating right now, it's a good way to look at it. What's your adoption level? What's your impact on your business from it too? Kortney Harmon [00:23:53]: Do you think there's a reason? And I mean we have this with ats adoption too. So I fully, I'm aware. Do you think for the communication standpoint, do you think there's a different reason for lack of adoption? Eric [00:24:04]: Yes, I think in the last couple years there's a lot of single point of sale solutions go to staffing world. They're 50% new vendors. I was like holy crap. Who are happy you guys. And they with the ability of AI to build a lot faster cloud code and everything. Right. A three person company can spot a really cool stack that does like unique features. The challenge is do we use that individual point of solution that does exactly this or there's some that's more all encompassing. Eric [00:24:30]: And so what I've actually seen is more consolidation of tools right now. Hey, that was a nice to have. For example, within that stack. This one does enough of that and we're going to have crossover that's 100% and people go, well we use this other tool, it does some of that. Like that's going to happen. Like with the nature of AI and what it does, we can give you a summary of the conversation, help you write email. So relate based off the conversation. That's a part of it. Eric [00:24:53]: That's an output that comes out of it. That's not the sole purpose of it. So you have to look like what's the end output and what's the goal you're trying to use that tool for? Kortney Harmon [00:25:00]: Absolutely right. And there are. I run partnerships over here and it's literally by the day the AI companies that are coming out of the woodwork and understand winning because we also have that shiny object syndrome to be like, ooh, there's something new, there's something. But you mentioned communication stack. Essentially what does that modern communication stack look like for staffing and recruiting firms in 2026 and 2027? It's crazy to even say those numbers. And how far off are most firms from that? Eric [00:25:28]: I'm a big believer of ditching the desk phone, getting rid of that. I love the up front. Before you even get to that. It's like candidate contact intelligence, understanding who you're reaching out to. Like what are you doing to source that information and validate that information. Now in SaaS sales, we're using Zoom info, we're using Sales Navigator, all of that to validate the correct information. Then you're using intent scores, right? You know we're going to. You're in marketing, you're loving this. Eric [00:25:56]: Intent scores, like are they visiting your website? Are they actually out looking for solutions right now? Go look and see if people are out hunting that you can see that like what are the active searches that are popping up. So that way when you're reaching out, it's someone that's an active buyer, they add a chat to every website and it's like you bring them to your storefront. You're the person that's wanting to come to the storefront because it's an intelligent buyer now they're not going to get a cold call from you like oh my God, AI call recording. I've never heard of this. Right, of course they have. And so it's also like understand you have an intelligent buyer now. And so it's obviously really asking them when you kind of get a hold of them like what's that pain point? And so then from there it's again have the ability to communicate multiple ways with them. Capture that data back. Eric [00:26:37]: And once that data's back in your system, what's your follow up process? What are your tools that are then prepping your team? Like hey, you know I use a sales intelligent tool. When I go into my pipeline meetings, I have a sales guy saying hey you know what, I'm going to close this deal this month. I'm like, you haven't talked to him in 30 days. No you're not. And it says here that the deal stalled. No, no, no, no. What I meant was. And I was like, well you didn't put your notes back into Salesforce then. Eric [00:27:00]: So that's the problem too. And so it's what's your sales intelligence tool? And I always say think of like revenue intelligence less than just sales. Because if we can it's like recruiting. It's revenue still, right? Placements are revenue. So having a revenue intelligence tool that can actually show you the inputs that are coming in, the outputs that are going out. So you know it's a front end sourcing correct information on them. Middle of stack your communication platform. Then it's the revenue intelligence tool that's actually making sure you're not missing gaps. Eric [00:27:27]: It's uses your methodology with med pick ban, you know, whatever, do you have input for your business? And then after that it's the how you're closing are using a deal room. You just implemented a deal room. Again, you're intelligent buyer. We go to sell it to them. Here's the deal room, here's the whole package, here's everything. You do the same thing, recruiting. What is, how are you putting that package forward to a candidate? What are you showing them? Hey, here's the whole encompassing package. You can go See what they're clicking through. Eric [00:27:53]: What are they viewing if they're not looking at the payback? If we got a problem, you know, are there parts of key of what you're offering to them that they're not even reviewing? Then why did you hammer on that so much if it's not important to them? So even to that level of like, I think when you're communicating, right, so you can see every step of the contact or candidate journey and as every step of your salesperson's journey. So again, we're looking at not just one part of it. You have to look at everyone's lifecycle through that phase. Kortney Harmon [00:28:18]: You mentioned all these pieces from your perspective, where you sit. Do you feel like that? Ats, CRM? Where do they fit in that stack? Is it the hub or is it just another node? What do you think? Eric [00:28:27]: I think it's the hub. Your data has to live in there. It has to live in there. That is where if it doesn't exist in there, it doesn't happen. And so that is what's unique to your business, right? Having that conversation there. People are going to come and go in SaaS. It's 10% attrition. I have to know that I'm capturing all of Carter's conversations. Eric [00:28:45]: So Carter leaves. I don't have that information, right, And I lose it. And so that's important for us as a business. We had to pick up, whereas we have to let someone go. Where do we pick up those pieces? You know, we can go try to search their email on Pine Day. If they didn't have something linked correctly. You don't want to lose all the business they were generating, especially if it's a top performer. Top performers leave too. Eric [00:29:04]: They go start their own businesses or they go to your competitor for a higher pay package like that could be a big gap for you. So you need to pick that all up and know exactly where all those deals were at. Life Cycle, as well as it can alert you. That's where that coaching piece comes back in too, is coaching those people. So again, instead of just big brothering it, it's, hey, Kortney, you're saying this is going to happen? It seems that we're stalling a lot of deals right here. A lot of candidates are getting stuck in this phase. They're in submission. They're not moving past everything. Eric [00:29:28]: What's going on? Let's look at that. Hey, I see that Chris is doing this. He's sending a deal room to him. He's sending this package to him. He's offering references or he's offering referrals. Hey, Corny, I know this job wasn't a good fit, but if you have anyone else you could refer to me, that'd be great. We have a referral program. We do with you guys, we do with people. Eric [00:29:46]: And so somebody may have been a candidate for. You could become your biggest person for referring people to you or your next big client. Or your next big client. Exactly. They may stay put and now they're actually client. And so again, it's multiple outreaches as well as multi touch and just observing that. And just because they stalled and then take that job, they're not dead to you. Kortney Harmon [00:30:04]: What's one thing that you think the industry needs to stop doing or a habit or an assumption that is holding firms back? Eric [00:30:12]: Tough question. It's one thing they have to stop Kortney Harmon [00:30:14]: doing or an assumption or a belief that they have. Eric [00:30:17]: It's the definition of insanity. I keep doing the same thing, expect a different output. As basic as that is, it really is that you have to be able to adopt. As David Falwell, who told me January of 2025, he's like, how much do you use AI? I was like I said recipes and arguments with my wife and vacations. He's like, if you're not using it an hour a day, like actually using it, you're going to be surpassed. And there was a Forbes study recently and it talked about sales is changing, marketing's changing. A lot of jobs will they are being eliminated. The ones that aren't are your top performers. Eric [00:30:52]: What makes your top performers unique? Top performers build relationships. They build a lasting relationship. Interestingly enough. They really communicate with people. And some of the people can trust and some of they'll continue to buy from even if they go to other companies. And to build that relationship, I've made a big push to go back to in person. Told my team I've created regional territories. I might find every state and local staffing association going on. Eric [00:31:18]: Go to the Minnesota Staffing Association, Colorado, Georgia, Mid Atlantic. Go meet people in person. They value getting to meet people in person. That face to face makes a big difference. We all think the digital era is where it's going. Yeah, sure, we all work remote now. I love being in person. That's where I thrive. Eric [00:31:35]: And I really like getting to meet people, get to know them, learn about their kids. Their mom and their wife are therapists. You won't forget that. And next time you talk, you'll be like, oh, what's new with the therapy world? There you know, that's what lasts. So that's when I'll remember. Hey, Kortney, I had a great conversation about this. So whether you bought for me in that time. But I still remembered that. Eric [00:31:53]: Right. Like you told me, your boys, they fight like cat and dogs right now because they're 10 and 12. That's what's going to stick with me until last page is five, the summer break. And so it's what's holding you back is that habit. What you did last year isn't going to work this year. How are you going to adapt and change? For me, it's go back to in person, build relationships, differentiate ourselves in that way. The human touch, so to speak. Kortney Harmon [00:32:14]: I love it. And I 100% agree with that. That is one of my largest pet peeves of in person. I mean, I've been remote before. Remote was cool. I mean, I've been remote for 15 years in some capacity. But I love seeing people in person, whether it's an event or a conference or. You said Massachusetts. Kortney Harmon [00:32:31]: Christine is amazing. I love her. She is like one of my favorite humans. And I talk to her all the time and I will give her a hug every time she sees me. But those are the things that ring fresh in your mind. So I 100% agree. I love that advice. I only have a few more questions. Kortney Harmon [00:32:44]: I know we have a hard stop here in 15. So Ringover integrates with obviously, ATS and CRM platforms like Crew Late. What does that connection actually enable firms to do that they couldn't do before? Because so many are like, well, I still have my cell phone, I still have my landline. I still have all these things. But what is our integration? What does it do differently for those firms? Eric [00:33:04]: I mean, I think it goes back to. It's capturing the right data. You know, it's good to know that I know how old your kids are, you're about to have summer break, those kind of things. But it's those key words that come up in conversations, right? Hey, you know, I'm worried about this. I might can't, this doesn't work out for us. Or, hey, last time this was the gap. And if I didn't write that down before, if I didn't capture that, that could be like the little golden nugget. You're going to see a trend too, which is interesting. Eric [00:33:29]: We start to see a trend, but then they're like the conversations. If you start hearing a lot of people in the LI space like, oh, yeah, we're having orders, cancel, order, cancel. Like, hey, Maybe I shouldn't be trying to sell into that space right now, but over here in construction, we're seeing a ton more conversations about, hey, we can't get enough candidates, right? So you'll start to see those trends too. So you got to use that communication tap and to also see red flags, right? Maybe that vertical you thought was going to be your golden nugget this year, it's slowing down and you can get and capture that through conversation. So be ahead of those trends. They call it like agentic, like, how do you use it to plan how you're going to change your business or schedule out what you're doing? So really use it to help that, to change who you're targeting and what market you're going after. Because we have to be able to adapt right now. That's the other thing. Eric [00:34:14]: The people that will succeed are the ones that are on their feet. I love startup world. While we're a 400 person company in 26 countries, we operate pretty quickly and nimble. And I think that's the other important part in the staffing world. We get stuck like, well, this is what we've always done. And it's like, yeah, you're struggling in that space right now. Is there a shift that's close to it? How can you identify that shift and make that shift and adapt quickly? Otherwise you might be hung out to dry. Kortney Harmon [00:34:38]: I love thinking about using your data differently. Obviously with an ats, everyone wants to keep everyone, including the people that retired in 1992, but if you can't do something with that data, you don't need the data. So. But what? Actively I coach on the side. So like, I love the term so what now what? Like, all right, so what, you have this information now what are you going to do with it? And if you can't answer that, are you just recording conversations for conversations or are you doing something with the data? Eric [00:35:03]: I love that precise. I always say that to salespeople. Hey, bring your challenges to me to your exact point. But if you don't bring in like an idea of how you can make a change or shift, like you're just complaining. And I'm only going to do that a few times. I'm going to shut you down. So bring the data to me. What are the trends? I learned that from a leader. Eric [00:35:20]: He's like, if you're not bringing data, I'll let you vent and that's it. And says, bring the data to it. Look at it. Look at trends. You can. AI allows us to see that A lot easier too though, right? I mean, that's one of its strengths. Use it to see trends. Where are candidates going? Where are we getting the most referrals from? What markets are best? Right. Eric [00:35:37]: They get hot and cold. Texas might be the best market in the country right now or wherever it may be and like identify that and just make a shift. But it all boils back to the data that's in your system. If it's not crew light, you're not analyzing that data. Why does it matter? Kortney Harmon [00:35:49]: I love it. All right, I have two more questions. Number one, where do you see recruiter to candidate communication going in the next two to three years? Break out your crystal ball. Eric, what do you think? Eric [00:36:01]: Great question. It's going to go back to demographic. By demographic I mean age category. So I'm interested to see how that goes. Right. I think our lump us in the Same millennial to 1 above. Like I'm on the cusp. I think we're going to stick with text and probably LinkedIn messaging. Eric [00:36:18]: You're going to see newer ones coming with new media. So being able to adapt to where they are communicating is going to be really crucial. Interestingly enough, I heard like the youngest generation, some of them moved back to flip phones. They didn't want smartphones. I've seen this like draw to that. And so maybe do phone calls become more prevalent? And so it's just again identifying the data and the trend of where it's going because it's gonna. Certain generations are gonna stick with what they like to use, period. Right. Eric [00:36:42]: Like I text. That's it. I text and then I call you back. And so just being able to identify that like what's the next big shift? I will say like with the creation of the AI outreach and all of that, there's some position where it's great for it to get. It's informing people, maybe getting people to apply, but they may not be able to take someone from. And maybe you can, depending on the role from start to finish through AI. Again, it comes back to the relationship too. So just really identify that trend and kind of just communicate on their terms like we talked about at the beginning. Eric [00:37:12]: So it's just looking for the new trends where you're seeing recruiters having the most success in salespeople. Okay. They're doing a great job using Facebook messenger or Instagram or whatever it may be and be able to make that shift and be dynamic as a company. Kortney Harmon [00:37:26]: Good piece of advice. And I hate that we're getting to that older generation. I know if you could give one piece of advice to a firm trying to modernize how their team communicates, what would it be? You obviously just gave an answer with that other question. But anything else? Eric [00:37:43]: Back to what I said before, look at your goal. What are you trying to do here? And maybe your goal this year isn't huge growth, it's retention of your key staff. So what are you doing? What are their needs? Asking your team. So one thing I've started doing and we use slack for internal communication and I just pull them, I pull my team, hey, here's our options. It's funny, it's similar what I offer my 7 year old when he gets mad, hey, instead of saying you're doing this because he really pushes, he just says no. Which I wouldn't have dare done with my parents. You just know I'm like, okay, hey here's the options, do you want to do this or that? And I ask them all the time like, hey, here's our options. We can't do both of those. Eric [00:38:22]: What do you guys prefer? So pull your thing, ask them what they prefer and try to let them get bought in on it because then they have buy in. Can't be like, well this isn't working. You guys chose this. This is a path we're going with. Let's stick with this and see it through. Right. We just changed territory like I told you, right. And I got pushed back. Eric [00:38:39]: The first conference, someone with we had 80 leads, I only got three of them. I was like, yes, we can't change the territories week one because you went to one conference. And so it's give them some of that strength to make those decisions on how they're going to communicate, what they're going to do. And then you get more buy in. The more buy in you get from the team, the more they're going to commit to you as well. Right. Like make it a true team instead of a top down type organization. I think that's going to be your strength as well. Kortney Harmon [00:39:05]: I love it. And different perspectives and so many things. Yes, I'm nodding along this entire time. So Eric, this has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much for sharing your perspective and your lens in this industry. And again, yes, nodding on all the things, ghosting AI over reliance communication, relationships, drop in. Whatever you said I agree with. Eric [00:39:28]: So thanks Gary. Kortney Harmon [00:39:29]: I love it. If you want to learn more about Eric and the Ringover team, what they're doing, feel free to check them out. I will also include the link to Ringover as well as your email address and in our notes of the show notes. So that'll be there. Hopefully. Check them out. They're one of the great competitors in our space and I think they're doing some really amazing things. So, Eric, thank you so much for the time today and getting all of your home and everything ready before you leave, like all the chaos that you have over there. Kortney Harmon [00:39:56]: So thank you so much for joining us. Eric [00:39:58]: Appreciate it. Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed the conversation today. Kortney Kortney Harmon [00:40:03]: I'm Kortney Harmon with crelate. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Industry Spotlight, a new series from the Full Desk Experience. 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