Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / DNA Surprises & Family Secrets: Managing Genetic Identity Discoveries with Kara Rubenstein Deyerin
Transcript
- Speaker 1 (00:05): Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and handle the most challenging interactions, those that are called high conflict interactions and may involve someone with a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host Bill Eddie. Speaker 2 (00:24): Hi everybody. Speaker 1 (00:25): We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute and we do all kinds of training, consulting, coaching, and educational programs and methods that are all designed to help people involved in high conflict disputes of any kind. So today we're joined by a very wonderful colleague and we're very excited about this. Her name is Cara Rubenstein Dein. Hi Cara. I've known for a couple of years and very pleased to get to know you and we're really happy that you're on the podcast. Today we're going to be talking about surprise DNA or DNA surprises, and I'm sure most people are going to wonder what that is because it's not something that I think a lot of people really have exposure to until it happens to them. So let's talk about who you are first. You are the founder of an organization called Right to Know and a non-practicing attorney with an LLM in taxation and a Master's in Trade and Investment policy in January, 2018. Speaker 1 (01:38): You wanted to see where in Africa your father's family came from. So you took an over the counter DNA test that revealed you were 50% something but had zero African DNA. This meant that the man named on your birth certificate couldn't possibly be your genetic father, and you lost your ethnic identity with the click of a mouse and then discovered you were 50% Jewish. The DNA Pandora's Box you opened led to an identity crisis and because there were a few resources for people with misattributed parentage and a lack of legal rights, you founded Right to Know and have become the leading advocate for genetic identity rights and people impacted by Misattributed parentage. You've appeared on a lot of lots of podcasts, multiple interviews and articles, and a frequent speaker on your DNA surprise, the Right to Know and the complex intersection of Genetic Information, identity and Family Dynamics. Speaker 1 (02:41): So welcome. And I have to say, I was so surprised when I first came to your conference and I think it was the inaugural conference in Kentucky. Was it Louisville? Louisville, that's right. Louisville. I do a lot of training, a lot of speaking. Both Bill and I do, and we usually get to a conference and we let people know we're there, the organizers know we're there and they hand us a pot packet and a lanyard and those types of things. And what was strikingly different about your conference is inside? The bag that I was given at registration was a packet of Kleenex and directions to a therapy room, which doesn't usually happen at a conference as being a lawyer like in a CLE conference or something. So there was a big question mark there, I wonder what this is for? Maybe colds are going around, I dunno. Speaker 1 (03:38): And then I came the next morning to the opening event and there were three speakers said opening breakfast. And the first one told this story of how her life had been impacted when discovering that her father wasn't her genetic father. And the next one was someone who'd been adopted from South America, I believe, and had built up the story as people do of what their history was before they were adopted, before they could remember as children what happened. And then it turned out that was all kind of mixed up and upside down. And then the third one, they were equally interesting, but I tell you it was salacious. The third one was a young lady who found out she had, I don't know, was it 30 some siblings, maybe 40. And there were already some sniffles in the room. And then as the conference went on and I learned more about the people who were there and some of the terminology around it, it was really you start to understand the Kleenex, the tissues. Speaker 1 (04:48): So then I came back on year two and I was even more excited because my background is I'm adopted and I had those fantasies in my mind growing up of who your birth families are and what must have happened. And there's kind of a whole fantasy associated with it. And I was one of the lucky ones who was always told that I was adopted, which I'm really grateful for. There's many who are not, and it's a big surprise to them. So I was very excited to come back the second year, which was in Denver. And he had a new format and there were people walking around with t-shirts on a few and matching T-shirts that said like 67, meaning they had 67 siblings. Yeah, Speaker 3 (05:34): They have 110 now. Speaker 1 (05:37): 10. Oh goodness. So this is the kind of conference this is and it's the most palpable conference, I guess it's visceral. You can feel there's so much. So the first morning that I sat down at a table at breakfast and the one lady at my table sitting alone, and I asked her why she was there and she said, what I found to be true throughout that conference was that during the pandemic, a lot of people took DNA tests, 23 ancestry, those kinds of things. And at age, maybe 57 discovered that dad wasn't dad. And then it went back even generations further. And I guess there was sadness and grieving and all of this. And you've been presented with this new package of news that the identity you thought you had is not what you had. Speaker 3 (06:36): Well, it's like the rug is pulled out from underneath you and everything you know about yourself is a lie. And there's two distinct ways people travel this path. People like you who grow up knowing they have different genetic family out there, and then people who have a surprise. And that surprise part often entails a sense of betrayal about who you think you are. And then we get into the same space you are. Well, who the heck am I then? Who am I related to? And it's a lot to process. It is. Tell us a little bit more about your story first. Speaker 1 (07:11): It's pretty fascinating. Speaker 3 (07:12): I grew up thinking I was half black and that was my lived history for 44 years. And I do remember once when I was a little girl sort of looking at the picture of my mom and dad thinking, well, if you try to be colorblind, maybe I look like the two of them, but you believe your parents, you believe the people that you're supposed to trust the most in this world, which is your parents. And so I believe them that my dad, Kenny was my dad. We call that your birth certificate father. And even when I asked him, I said, dad, I want to know and where in Africa where these three slave brothers were from? Let's do this test. And his only hesitation was, oh, they've done bad things to our people in the past with medical testing. So I don't know how I feel about this. Neither of us expected the results that we got. Speaker 1 (08:02): Wow. So you were not at all black, not at all African, and you were 50% Jewish. Speaker 3 (08:09): When you get those news, it's kind of like when Kennedy was shot or the space shuttle blew up. If you ask anybody who's had a DNA surprise, I guarantee you they can tell you that moment that they figured out that they weren't related to one or both their parents. So in my case, I had what we call is that an NPE or a non paternal event, and that means the man on your birth certificate or the man who you think is your father who's raised you. But sometimes people also find out their mom isn't their mom if they're a late discovery adoptee or if they're egg donor conceived or embryo donor conceived. So there's a lot of these discoveries happening. We think we make up at least 10% of the population. Wow. Speaker 2 (08:51): Wow. Speaker 1 (08:52): So misattributed parentage would be any person who finds out that their parent isn't their parent. So what are the different scenarios? You mentioned a couple Speaker 3 (09:04): Sperm donor conceived is probably the most common when someone says they're donor conceived. And we wish that the assisted reproduction community had learned from the adoption community because back in the day 50 years ago, if you adopted a child and they kind of looked like you, they were told, well don't tell. And eventually through studies, the mental health community said, no, this is not a good idea. People need to know when they're not related to the people raising them because you don't have what's called genetic marrying. And that's where you see your physical traits, your personality traits reflected in the people around you. And if it's not reflected by the people around you, you think something's wrong with you. I mean, I remember my mom saying in second grade, I can't do math with you anymore. Where do you come from? I started my first nonprofit in middle school and she just was like, I don't know where this comes from. And it turns out that my genetic father was a philanthropist and had started many nonprofits and graduated from the University of Washington when he was 17. So genetics is strong. Speaker 1 (10:09): Genetics are very strong. And I mean, even in my case, I know my genetic families now on both sides and the longer I'm around them, and I've known them probably 25 years at this point, there's surprises all the time. Oh, I do that. Oh, that's where that comes from. And you just see how strong the genetics are. And I guess there's probably a commonality between all of us who are not being raised by the people who gave birth to us. And I kind of think it goes to such a cellular level. Do you hear that from people? Speaker 3 (10:45): Absolutely. I think we have this innate drive to want to know where we come from, what our roots are, and when we get around people who are genetically related to us, we see those synchronicities and they go beyond brown eyes and black curly hair. They're your 60% of your ability to read well if you're going to have any reading disabilities is from your genetics. So there's a lot of different things that we're finally discovering are actually related to genetics. And it's the thing that's going to impact you the most of who you are. So it's a big deal to not know, not I call it your blueprint and not have your blueprint for where you come from. And I think if you know that information, I mean we haven't even talked about medical history. Knowing your medical history is key these days and you mimic your health after your parents. So if your parents have issues with their heart, you're careful with that. But what if that's the wrong thing? So it's crucial to know where you come from. Speaker 2 (11:46): I wanted to mention, I saw a program about a year ago, and I'm sure you've heard of this, I don't remember the name of it, but it was a guy from the Netherlands who was a sperm donor for something like 3000 children. He broke the rules. You're not supposed to have more than 10, I think. And so there's a big to do about that. That's the biggest case in history as far as people know. But they raised an interesting thing that you may be able to explain more, said that they look a little like each other and that looking like somebody is appealing and that there's a risk of them being attracted to each other and becoming a couple and having their own kids without necessarily knowing that there's 3000 that have this one father sperm donor. So I don't know if you know about that or if you have thoughts about that. Speaker 3 (12:48): Sure. You're talking about the sperm coordinator. Speaker 3 (12:52): He does things privately. So you can go to a clinic and purchase sperm in the United States. It's not regulated in the United States. So that 10 person family limit that's in Australia and in the EU and in the uk, but in the United States, we don't have a limit on the number of children that can be created by a sperm donor and check out one donation, one time of submitting your specimen, they can divide it into up to 20 straws. So just one donation can be used to make 20 children. Now obviously the rates of success aren't a hundred percent, but still we absolutely need limits on the number of families for the reasons that you just outlined. There was a study that shows that husband and wives are more genetically related to each other than random strangers. We are attracted to people who are like us. And so that genetic attraction is real. And if you don't know whether or not you're related to somebody, that's a huge issue. I can't remember which country it is. It's an island country. They actually have an app on their watch that if they're going to date, they check the app out to make sure that they're not genetically related to who they're dating before they even start the relationship. You don't want that to happen. Speaker 1 (14:14): I suppose on an island that's smaller, there might be a bigger chance of doing that. But I remember one of those first three people, I talked about it from the first conference, the gal that found out she had so many siblings, she discovered she was dating her sibling, half sibling, and that was, I think in Los Angeles, a huge, huge city. So I mean, the odds seem like they might be small, but I think you're onto something there, bill. Speaker 3 (14:40): Yeah, and they don't ship that sperm far. Speaker 1 (14:42): Oh, I suppose, yeah, that makes sense. And then I think from country to country, even if Australia has stringent laws around it and the EU does, there's nothing stopping a donor from going from one country to another. And I would assume that their computer systems are not linked up to catch that. Speaker 3 (15:03): That's exactly what Bill was talking about with that guy. That's exactly what he did. Speaker 2 (15:07): Yeah. Well, he worked his way around the eu. I don't know if he left Europe, but he worked his way around Europe. He was in most of the countries there. And people, apparently kids, I think when he started this program came out about, they're like between around 10, 11, 12, 13 and occasionally starting to meet people that look like each other. I mean, I hope they all know to keep their eyes out that that's where they came from. But I don't know. A lot of parents probably don't mention that dad was a sper donor. Speaker 3 (15:47): That's what I was saying, that in the adoption world now people are told to tell their children that they're adopted from a young age and they're just now shifting in assisted reproduction saying you need to tell. But that's still, if you look at some of the recent studies, it's less than 50% are telling. So a lot of people aren't knowing, and there's so much stigma tied to infertility. In my case, I am the product of a one night stand and my mom was married and my genetic father was married. So infidelity, there's so much shame and stigma tied to that as well. And we're all innocent bystanders in our conception. How we come into this world is not our fault. Yet a lot of people feel shame and stigma around that, and they're not talking about it. So it's great that there's more programs like this and you guys are talking about it because we need to minimize that. So parents are comfortable telling their children about their genetic origins. Speaker 1 (16:45): I mean, if it's 10%, that's a lot of people. Speaker 2 (16:48): Yes, yes. Now, what's interesting from the legal side, and I'm not up to date on this, so I'm a family lawyer, but about 10 years ago I stopped regular practicing and keeping up with all the details. But I know one of the issues that had happened is genetic testing. The first two years of a child's life is whether somebody I am the father or not. In other words, am I going to be paying child support for the rest of my life because of a one night stand? Or can I show that it was somebody else or I want to prove it's me. And so you have that situation. I remember that at one point I said, what if somebody shows not me and yet they've been living with the mother and the child for two or three or five years and well, not me. I'm out of here. Speaker 2 (17:49): And the court's saying, wait a minute, we're not going to have a child that has no father. So guess what, buddy, you've been around for five years. You are the father. Various controversies that have come up over that. And I might mention, actually, I give an example of a case I had. It was a mediation case. Somehow there had been some separation and then reconciliation, but apparently a child was conceived during the separation, but mom didn't mention that. And so dad was, is this my child or not? Oh, of course it's your child. Well, he said, we've got some testing and it's not his child. And that was a really big moment in the mediation. Was this, is he going to have a parent relationship with that child or is he going to say, that's it, I'm out of here. I'm only responsible for the one I know I'm responsible for. So you get those kinds of questions, but the legal questions are just things I never thought of, not having a parent. I Speaker 3 (19:03): Mean, I think Bill, the issue is that, and the courts are really behind on this, it's somewhat antiquated in my opinion. Kids have the capacity to love multiple parents. So it's not hard for kids to distinguish between, this is my dad who's raising me. And people always ask me, who's the real parent? And I always say the real parent is the person who's there for the child, regardless of genetics. They're the person kissing your boo boos when you fall off your bike and reading you a good night story. But that doesn't mean that that child can't also have a genetic parent out there or grandparent that they also see, I mean, we have multiple sets of grandparents. And so I hope that the courts get to the space where they can kind of expand the concept of families to embrace all these different unique and beautiful ways that we can build a family. For me, one of the key issues was I want my birth certificate to accurately reflect who my parentage is. So when my great great grandchildren get that assignment in elementary school where you have to build that family tree, which is really hard for a lot of kids, I'm sure Megan can talk about that. Speaker 3 (20:14): I want it to be the truth. And the problem is in courts, we use the birth certificate for who's legally responsible. And it doesn't matter about genetics, right? Because when a child's adopted, they seal all the original birth certificate and then they put a fictitious thing on there that these two people gave birth to that child who adopted that person and they didn't. And so I would love to see a birth certificate that had genetic parents on there as well as the parents who are legally responsible. So we never are erasing people's identity. And then when you're doing research that way, the birth can serve both purposes. When you're doing family research, you can clearly identify who your parents are because this is so traumatic. And I have people who reach out to write to know, who find out their grandparents aren't their grandparents, and they're still suffering from, that means I'm not. Speaker 3 (21:04): I thought I was Scottish, and I've associated with that and my last name now is not right, even though it's a couple generations away. And it's not just those people who are making the discovery, it's also the family members that we grew up with. In my case, since I'm the product of infidelity, when people talk about my father, my genetic father, their perception of him has now changed. Now everybody knows that he's had a one night stand with somebody and nobody ever thought that he was that type of person. So it impacts how people perceive each other and their families. It impacts the family you grow up in. It impacts the family or reaching out. And these can be really hard conversations to have. Speaker 1 (21:46): Oh, it's really tricky. And going back to the gal I met last year, the first person at the conference in Denver, she thought she was, I can't remember which culture, but let's say Scottish and just very proud. I think it was Czech Slovakian and just had this proud heritage and everything associated with it. And now I think her mother had passed and her dad was still alive, but has a disease, debilitating disease that comes with age. And so there's no way she could talk to him about it, but she felt so devastated. And I guess that's where I'd kind of like to go with this conversation is there's a pretty wide range of emotions you go through when you find out that you have this misattributed parentage. This person is not your parent and this culture is not yours. And I think maybe from the outside, people may think that what's the big deal now? You have new facts, you have new information, so just adapt and adjust. But so I think everything you've experienced in your life has been this way and now suddenly it's this way and there's a huge sense of loss. Speaker 2 (23:01): Well, I have a question about that actually for both of you. So the grieving process, healing and grieving process you go through, is that something that you went through for a year or two and then it's really been an acceptance? Or is this something that you go through in a lifetime where it's off and then you're kind of adapting again and again? Speaker 3 (23:27): I mean, I'll tell you this, but you think it's something you're going to get through. I will never say anybody gets over it. You're like, I'm going to get through this and then I'll be okay. And that's just not the case. Yes, you get through it, you learn to live with it. I kind of likened it. I have a coat with all these different patches I wear. I'm married, I have patch, my grandparents were murdered. I have that patch, I have a college degree, I have that patch, and now I have my DNA surprise patch, and it will always be with me. I will never get over it. And it's been almost, what is that? Let's do some quick math. Six years for me, and I still get triggered. I still have moments where I have to process through and really think about why I'm feeling like I am. And sometimes they're really small things like watching a Disney movie or something. So no, it's a lifetime experience. Speaker 1 (24:25): And for me, being adopted from birth, I knew nothing but my adoptive family until I was in my twenties. And here I'm a little past my twenties now. It's been a good few years. And still, it's still not easy, not with everyone in the different families. And it's kind of hard to explain. So there wasn't a big grieving process for me. It was probably opposite where I'm a pretty optimistic person and maybe a little Pollyanna-ish. So I had this fantasy of, well, everything's going to be wonderful. I'm going to meet these wonderful people, and they are wonderful people, but in every family you're going to have conflict and you're going to have differences. And I think the assumptions you have and the expectations that you have of each other and every family, every situation's going to be different. Some are going to have been looking for the person, the child, they gave a place for adoption and others not. Speaker 1 (25:27): And so you're trying to match then the fantasy you created in your head with the reality that you find if you've known for a while where in car's circumstance and with so many others with misattributed parentage, it's just such a shock. And that I think you really do have to go through the stages of grieving with it. And you may experience rejection, you may experience acceptance on the new side and then back on the old side, they may not be very comfortable with that. So there's a lot of things to navigate. So I think what would be really fascinating to hear from you, Cara, is what you're hearing from the families you're helping and individuals you're helping about what's the opportunity for conflict at the reunion opportunity? I told you I was Pollyanna-ish. Speaker 3 (26:23): I mean, the rejection is really hard, but I think that's true for people who grow up knowing they have different parents and then those of us who have a surprise once you start in that reunion space, we're all in the same boat. And I was rejected from the family that I grew up with because now we weren't related by blood. And it, it's a lot to process and you kind of feel alone in that space and you're having these difficult conversations. I mean, I had to sit down and tell my dad that he wasn't my dad because I don't have a good poker face, and I would think things would start to come out of my mouth when I was with him. I can't sing like you. Oh, wait. And I would kind of choke on it because I'm like, oh wait, that's not true anymore. Speaker 3 (27:06): So I knew I had to tell him. And these are hard conversations that you have to have. And you don't know if the person, I mean, if it's somebody you grew up with, they might have a high conflict personality, but the people that you're reaching out to, you don't know that about them. You don't know what you're jumping into. And so our biggest advice is to go extremely slow, which is really hard because you have all these expectations. You were talking about Megan, like your ghost kingdom. We all create that space of what we imagine our genetic family will be like, our mother or our father or grandma or whomever it is in our fantasies and reality is often very different. So there is that disappointment there, and you just can't get enough. I actually recently, my dad who raised me died, but he just had a new son pop up. Speaker 3 (27:56): So he had a son that had been relinquished for adoption. And when we met for the first time, it was so intense, and I'm not even related to this person, but he couldn't get enough information, and I knew exactly what he felt like, because you have a hole. There's this hole now that's been created in you or that you grew up with because you didn't know those people and you're just trying to fill it. And it took me a number of years to realize that no matter how many stories I hear, my genetic father's deceased, I won't get the chance to meet him. So however many stories I hear about him, that whole will never be full. Speaker 1 (28:34): And there's opportunity for mistakes as well. Some of the people I've met through write to know, have talked about the mistakes that have happened when they thought they'd found their genetic family, and then it turns out that wasn't it. And so now it just kind of compounds one on the next. Speaker 3 (28:53): In adoption, sometimes people are searching for their mother often first, and when they find mom, mom says, Bob's your dad. And so they go find Bob and they meet Bob and they develop a relationship with Bob, and then they are sucked into the leader hose and kilt commercial or somebody gets that for them for Christmas and they find out Bob's not their dad. So there's a lot of adoptees who also have an NPE later. And then I've heard of that with donors too, because when someone donates sperm, they're going to be donor 4, 5, 6, and the moms have that printout, oh, we use donor 4, 5, 6. And the clinics will often put the siblings together, and then sometime later they may identify who donor 4, 5, 6 is not through a DNA test, and then they do a DNA test. And some of those kids really didn't get donor 4, 5, 6, like mom thought. Speaker 2 (29:43): Wow. Speaker 3 (29:44): So from Speaker 1 (29:45): The child's perspective, whether you've reached an age of maturity and you're taking this on board, what's the experience? I mean, I know from my own experience, mine was no surprise, but I just can't imagine what that's like to just suddenly, like you said, have that rug pulled out from under you. Speaker 3 (30:05): Well, the number one thing people use the number one word. We did a study with more than 600 respondents and it was shock. But then the second one was validation because everyone felt like that Sesame Street song, which one of these is not like the other, you kind of felt a little bit different. I've tried to find the words to explain it to people, and the only thing that I've come close, I have three children, three boys, and we were at a water park and amusement park when my sons were like four and two, and my 2-year-old disappeared. And the moment that I realized he disappeared, my heart sank, my world stopped spinning. And that's what it feels like when you have a DNA surprise. Speaker 2 (30:49): It's like a death in the family, almost Speaker 3 (30:51): An immediate surprise Speaker 1 (30:53): Death, not what you're expecting. And then there's not a playbook for this. So that's where your organization has been so helpful coming in. And you have lots of support groups. And what kind of support groups are available to people? Speaker 3 (31:08): Well, we have a Wednesday support group that meets each week for anybody. But I also want to stress that this is hard on everybody involved, my spouse, what he's had to process with me discovering a different ethnicity. My children now have a different ethnicity, and then there was a woman who reached out to our hotline, her father, she was his raised child, he had donated sperm for years, and all of a sudden she had 30 siblings reaching out to her. And so this impacts so many different people in the family that we are not even thinking about the ripple effects. And so we are here for the parents, we're here for the siblings, we're here for anybody impacted by what I would call loss of genetic continuity and how that impacts them. For some people, it's not as large of an impact. And for other people it's a huge impact. And we have lots of different educational resources on our website. We have a fillable medical history form, we have steps for reunion, we have sample letters. When you're reaching out to people, that is such a scary thing to do to put yourself out there when you reach out to your genetic family for the first time. And anybody listening, I hope people understand that we're reaching out to learn more about who we are, to learn about our medical history. That's all that we're asking. Speaker 1 (32:34): That's where I started. I never anticipated I would ever meet anyone from my genetic families, and I thought, I just want to know medical information. That's probably what my brain was saying. But I think my heart underneath that, obviously always wanting to know always as a space that's unfilled. It's a tough thing. And even I was thinking about some of the struggles that I've had since knowing this, and I think it's around the expectations. And it can be anything from time you're going to spend what you're going to call the other person. I have a dad, and that's such a special, unique name that I can only call one person. So what do I call this other person? And I don't want to hurt his feelings or the mom the same thing. And I've heard from others who that's not a hard thing for them to do, but for me, it felt like I was betraying my own family, even though they were very open to this and even suggested it. But then it can even go to wondering the birth family wondering, well, are they going to try to come after inheritance? Are they going to have an expectation of us supporting them? And there's just a lot of things that you, I mean, those are hard enough in intact families. So now all these other complications, it's tough. Speaker 3 (34:10): It's a lot. But one thing I always say about the inheritance, we live in the United States, you can disinherit a blood relative. So it's not that hard unless the estate has settled. And even that, you can't go back and open it up unless there's fraud. So the fact that people might think that somebody's coming after an inheritance, it's like, well just say in your will, I give Cara $5 and then that's it. Or I give cara nothing and it's over with. You don't have to worry about it. So that kind of stuff, I always find it sad that people go there in that space first you had said maybe some people hadn't heard about a DNA surprise. But I will tell you this, the more I talk to people, talk to people, the more people I realize know somebody who's impacted by this, I think there's probably one, or there's Kevin Bacon, six degrees of separation. Speaker 3 (34:58): I think it's more like one or two degrees for people who are impacted by adoption, assisted reproduction or misattributed parentage, an NPE. Like me, just after my surprise, everybody I knew was telling me, oh, I have a sister who used an egg donor. Even my neighbor came over, his mom and dad and sister had all passed away in one year and he was alone. And he had gotten the call and he had a sister. His mother had relinquished and never told anybody. And he was so excited because his family had just all passed away, and I was so appreciative of his reaction to his new sister. So I think people will find that when they're listening for it, they're going to hear a lot more about it. Speaker 1 (35:44): Yeah, for sure. Especially if I think probably it doesn't matter whether it's on the positive side of the negative side, you're probably going to hear about it. And I am thinking of that negative side being the rejection of those who go seeking when they find that person and they get rejected. And I know several people that have been in that boat, and that's a tough one, even for the toughest humans. Speaker 3 (36:11): I mean, I have experienced a lot of different traumas in my life, and I've always been able to brush myself off and keep on going, and this just knocked me down. I have to tell people when they call our hotline or reach out for help, this is the one time in your life that you need to, you have permission to make it about you. This has to be about you. And my raising family rejected me, and then also my new genetic family. And every time I would reach out, I would have to give myself some space and time to be ready for the possibility of further rejection. It can be a lot to realize that it's really not about you, even though you feel that way in the moment, that it's really about where the people are that you're reaching out to. Speaker 2 (36:56): One thing I want to just throw in here is because I do a lot of consultations and I used to be a therapist and also a lawyer, and I'd have people with a high conflict parent who they now don't want a relationship with because it was so difficult growing up. And one thing that I believe in, and I say a lot is, well, you're an adult. You can choose your family now. You can choose who you're going to be around, who you're going to spend time with, et cetera. But I wondered your opinion. Is that a healthy thing to say? Is that one of those good things? Or maybe I shouldn't be saying that. Any thoughts, and this is a different context because they usually are blood relatives, but yet I think the implications of this for society are what really is a parent, what really is a family? And I just wonder if you had thoughts on that. Speaker 3 (37:56): Yeah, I do. I mean, I think we all know what we think family should be, right? And like I said, with a real parent, it's that person who puts the child's interest first. I mean, my oldest child is 23 years old, and for the rest of I am his parent, and even when he's 40 and I am 66, he will be first. His interests have to come first because I'm the parent and he's the child. And so we know what family should be, and if somebody isn't part of a healthy family environment, we do need to create very strong boundaries. And I think there's a lot of, in these spaces, there's a lot of high conflict personalities. I think especially for the moms, and I don't know if that's a product of environment with the shame and stigma of how the child was conceived. Maybe an assault again, maybe infertility, maybe infidelity. Speaker 3 (38:55): We've come a long way as a female and female sexuality in the United States. But still, if a woman doesn't know who the father is because she's had sexual relations with multiple people or she's been unfaithful to her husband, there's a lot of stigma and blame on that. And we don't talk about those situations. And that also secrets fester. So when you fast forward 30 years, that woman has been holding, the mom has been holding that secret for so long, and that's dumb things to her psyche in a way that sometimes it's hard to move forward from. So I think it's really important to family is who you invite in, and we have to set those boundaries so we can have healthy relationships. Speaker 1 (39:43): I really like that family is who you invite in. Yeah. Writing that down, it's just so fascinating. I could talk about this all day, but I'll ask this last question. Do you find that people who have a DNA surprise wish that they hadn't known? Speaker 3 (40:02): That's a very good question. I get asked that a lot because I work sometimes with genealogists or people who know a family secret, and they're like, should I tell? In our studies, 95% said they were glad they knew the truth. That's a really high statistic, 95%. I'm surprised. And as much as I know it upended my life, my sense of self, everything makes so much more sense to me. And I would never want to go back living in the fog, living in secret. I'm not a secret, and I have the right to know who I am. And so I hope people feel comfort in knowing that 95% of the people, I'm really glad they know the truth. And there's very rarely do you get a statistic like that high. Right? Speaker 1 (40:49): Yeah, that's interesting. And I guess some of that may come from things now make sense, why I do this thing is because of this. And I know for me, some of my more, well, both positive and negative attributes that I've become aware of, I realize now maybe that some of it was genetic. It's not your fault and it's not my fault. Alright. Yeah. And I think there is some comfort in that, and as long as you're aware of it and you're taking steps too, if it's a negative thing to make it to turn that around, then great. But yeah, there's some relief. It's kind of like when you have had a medical issue for quite a while and then finally get a diagnosis after not being able to figure it out for a long time. There's some relief. Even if it's not a nice diagnosis, Speaker 3 (41:40): Positive or negative, now the truth and you can move forward with that truth. Speaker 1 (41:44): Yeah. Well, any last thoughts or words of encouragement for those of our listeners who may have experienced something like this? Speaker 3 (41:53): I will just say for me, I thought I was a unicorn and I thought I was alone. And telling my story, sharing my story, and talking to other people who have had a similar experience has really helped me move forward in my healing process. So I hope people understand they're not alone if they're experiencing this or impacted by it. And it really does help to reach out. There's plenty of online Facebook groups now that support all different aspects of these discoveries. We have our conference, which will be in Atlanta in March of 2026, the Untangling Our Roots Conference, but there's lots of organizations out there and plenty of spaces to meet people. And so I would encourage anyone impacted by this to reach out and know that they're not alone. Speaker 1 (42:39): Excellent. Well said. So we'll put your website in the conference and all of that in the show notes for anyone who wants to find you. And I would assume you're putting tissues in the packets again for this year's conference? Speaker 3 (42:54): Absolutely. Every year. And we also do a quiet room too, with a therapist because it's a lot when you come to those spaces. So yeah, we need to have those spaces to help us Speaker 1 (43:04): Heal. Oh, there's not a dry eye in those rooms. You just feel it. It's like there's a vibe. I don't know if people who've never experienced something like this would feel it. I'm sure they would, Speaker 3 (43:17): But I know we're wrapping up, but I will just say we had a woman who came with her friend to support her coming, and it was probably one of the best bits of feedback that we got. She just said it changed. She hasn't had a surprise. She's not adopted or donor conceived or had an NPE. She's not a parent. She's not a spouse or a sibling. She was just a friend coming along and bless her for doing that. Right. That was great that she was supporting her friend who didn't want to come alone, but she said for her it was a life-changing experience. So that was amazing feedback. I'm not surprised. And so what's your website? It's www dot right to know us, and it's untangling our roots.org for the conference. For the Speaker 1 (44:00): Conference. All right. We'll put those in the show notes. Thank you, Cara, for being here. Really grateful and keep up the good work. I will not be surprised to see your organization grow like crazy over the coming years. So all of our listeners, thank you for listening today and next week we'll be talking about how to handle it, the feelings, and maybe even despair when realizing that someone you love, let's say an adult child or somebody new in your life, even kind of has this high conflict personality and what that does. So is there hope, what can you do and what should you do? In the meantime, send your questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or send them to high conflict institute.com/podcast. In the meantime, keep listening and learning. Keep practicing the skills while we all try to keep the conflict small and find the missing piece. It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show notes and transcripts at True story fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.