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#HURDLEMOMENT: How to Navigate the Anxiety Trap · Hurdle with Emily Abbate

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: You're not alone if you feel this way. It is
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: normal to feel anxious. It is okay to feel anxious,
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: and do not view it as this failure. You're human, right,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: and let's try to help you channel that anxiety into
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: projective means to help you get on with all of
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: those awesome goals that you're setting for yourself.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, Emily, a body here coming to you from
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: the AG studio. You are listening to Hurdle Ahle this
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: focus podcast reconnect with everyone from your favorite athletes to
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: top experts and industry CEOs about their highest hies, toughest moments,
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: and everything in between.
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: We all go through hurdles in life, and my goal through.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: These discussions is to empower you to better navigate yours
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: and move with attention so that you can stride toward
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: your own big potential and of course have some fun
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: along the way. For today's episode of Hurdle Woman, I
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: am talking to doctor Alison Gabriel.
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: She's an organizational psychologist.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: She's also a professor of Management and Organizations at the
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: University of Arizona, and we are talking about the anxiety trap.
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: We're going to talk about exactly what the anxiety trap
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: is that vicious cycle that many of us can fall
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  Speaker 2: into when it comes to feeling anxious.
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: Day in and day out.
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  Speaker 2: Then we address how to beat it and doctor Gabriel's
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  Speaker 2: strategic tempts for navigating what can be frequent bouts of anxiety. Listen,
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: this is something that I have certainly, certainly dealt with
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: in the past and something that I knew I wanted
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: to have an expert on the show to give us
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: some proper insight on the topic. Make sure you're following
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: along with Hurdle over on the Socials. That's that Hurdle podcast.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: I am over at Emily a Body, and.
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: I'm going to keep this week's intro short and sweet.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: With that, let's get to hurdling.
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: Today.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: I'm sitting down with doctor Allison Gabriel. She's an organizational psychologist.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: She's also a professor of management and Organizations at the
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: University of Arizona.
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: How you doing today, Allison?
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: I am good. It's a little early here, but I
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: am I'm going to channel our topic for the day
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: and say I'm excited to be here. I'm not anxious.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: I'm excited.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I'm appreciative of your time. I'm so excited
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: that we were able to sit down. I love when
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: Twitter acquaintances become real life podcast guests. And today we
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: are here to talk about that topic of anxiety and
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: specifically navigating what we will call the anxiety trap.
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: So, before you and I.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Get into talking about what the quote unquote anxiety trap
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: is is, why don't you give us a little bit
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: of your background and talk to us about what it
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: means to be an organizational psychologist.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So I had a very interesting turn of
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: getting here, and so I became fascinated by just understanding emotions.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: If you're like me, you experience a lot of emotions
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: on a given day. And I found myself in high
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: school working a variety of service jobs where I had
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: to smile, be positive, be happy, and I always found
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: it so stressful. And I was like, well, I wonder
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: if there's ways to study this to understand how we
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: can make work better for people, to help people understand
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: their emotions more. And that really drove me into organizational psychology.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: So I study emotions and motivation and well being at work.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: I want to help people understand their emotions, understand what
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: it is that they're feeling, why they're feeling it, and
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: just how we can do it a little bit better.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: I think one of the biggest misnombers we have is
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: that we shouldn't feel certain emotions, that we shouldn't talk
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: about our emotions. In reality, those are huge cues of
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: you know, what it is that we're doing, how we're
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: pursuing big goals that we might have in front of us.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: And so that's really what I'm trying to do. And
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: my work day to day is how do we make
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: work better and how do we make you understand your
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: emotions a little bit better? And anxiety is one of
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  Speaker 1: those emotions that I think is so common and so tricky.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: We all feel it, and if you're like me, you
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  Speaker 1: don't really know what to do with it when it
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  Speaker 1: first happens to you. You just feel me the sweaty palms,
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  Speaker 1: the panic, and you're like, Okay, something is off and
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  Speaker 1: how do I fix that now?
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  Speaker 3: Right? Right?
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  Speaker 2: And I find that so interesting, the idea of us
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  Speaker 2: feeling as though we're not supposed to have emotions, We're
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  Speaker 2: not supposed to.
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  Speaker 3: Tell people how we really feel.
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  Speaker 2: It's like that blank question that we answer a zillion
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: times a day, how are you doing?
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  Speaker 3: And ninety nine percent of the time you say I'm.
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  Speaker 2: Good, but right, ninety nine percent of the time, that's
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  Speaker 2: probably not how you're actually doing.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: Right right, It's like this, it's a social script, right,
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  Speaker 1: It's the small talk like, oh, I'm good, how are you? Like?
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  Speaker 1: What would happen if we were walking and be like,
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  Speaker 1: I'm actually really anxious today or I'm struggling, I'm fatigued,
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  Speaker 1: And for me, actually, that's something I would love to
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: see happen, is that we feel more authentic with our
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: emotions and say, you know what, here's how I'm feeling,
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  Speaker 1: and can we talk about that and can we work
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: together to figure out what can I do? Or is
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: there anything you could do to help me to make
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  Speaker 1: this feeling that I kind of want to go away
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  Speaker 1: go away? And that's what I tend to do with
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  Speaker 1: people that know me pretty well if they asked me
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  Speaker 1: that question. And I'd love to bring that and normalize
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: that more in conversations we have every day with other people.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: I feel the issue with that is that a lot
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: of individuals aren't actually seeking the authentic and real response,
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: Like if I was to look at someone I don't
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: know very well, and be like, you know, I'm actually
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: pretty tired. I was up late last night because I
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: have a lot of anxiety about one of my close
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: friendships being a little rocky. At the moment that person
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: would look at me and be like, Okay, thanks for
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: TMI right right.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: Well, because we have these social scripts that we're always
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: supposed to smile and be positive and be happy, so
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: when you deviate that from that, people are like, wait, what,
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: like what did you just say? And so you know,
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  Speaker 1: but I think that's getting down to who we are
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: authentically as people, is we feel all these emotions. Even
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: the most positive person in the world has days where
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: they're off. And let's try to break the stigma of
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: that and let people say, you know what, I'm off today,
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: I have a really big deadline and I'm kind of panicking,
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: and let me tell you why I'm panicking, and maybe
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: we could troubleshoot that together. I would love that. I
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: think that's what we need to head towards to make
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: people feel less alone in their feelings. Because when you
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: feel anxious or other emotions like loneliness or resentment, these
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: things that we view as really negative, they really start
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: to spiral and build on each other because you're like, oh,
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: it must be it's just me, right, I'm the only
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: one who feels anxious right now. I'm the only one
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: who feels lonely alert right now. So the more we
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: talk about it, the more I can break that down
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: and really help people.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: You know, someone said something to me once that really
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: resonated with me in that you don't need to talk
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: about the whole thing before you're ready, but you can
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: talk about the fact that you are feeling some kind
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: of way without divulging like all the massive details of
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: your personal life. So maybe someone is feeling overwhelmed. I
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: gave that example of like a friendship being on the rocks.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: You could just say something like I'm feeling so overwhelmed lately,
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  Speaker 2: And that in itself is like highly relatable because of
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: what we got at as we got into this conversation
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  Speaker 2: that people aren't always opening up about the fact that
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: not everything is you know, roses and sunshine all the time, right.
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: Right, absolutely, And that's something you know, if I'm going
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: to study this, right, if I'm going to study emotions,
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: and I study it mostly with employees at work, with coworkers,
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: then I'm going to model it. And so this is
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: something that I try to do when I talk to
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: someone where, even if I don't know them super well,
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: and they ask how I am, I'm like, oh, you know,
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  Speaker 1: I'm really tired today, like Eleanor Or Toddler gave me
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: a run for my money yesterday. I'm exhausted, I'm behind,
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  Speaker 1: I'm stressed. And then we kind of talk about that
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: and usually they'll reciprocate and say, oh, yeah, you know what,
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  Speaker 1: I'm kind of feeling that way too, And it to me,
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  Speaker 1: it kind of breaks down barriers and social conversations because
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: it immediately bonds you to somebody else like oh, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: you're you're human too, like you're feeling stuff, Like we're
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: both things. Look at us, look at us now.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, Eleanor. I'm assuming being your child and not
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: a coworker.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: Correct, Yeah, Eleanor, Yeah, I don't have a coworker running
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  Speaker 1: around my house a yelling at me. It's just a
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: two year old.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: Just a two year old, Okay, Okay, Well, as I mentioned,
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  Speaker 2: we're here today to specifically home in on the emotion
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: or the feeling of anxiety. So why don't you kick
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: things off for us by talking to us about what
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  Speaker 2: it means to fall into the anxiety trap, because that
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  Speaker 2: is more than just sporadically feeling anxious, right.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: Right, And so yeah, we talk about anxiety, there's levels
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  Speaker 1: to it, right. So you have the extreme, which is
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: just chronic kind of generalized anxiety disorders, and that's not
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  Speaker 1: really what I want to talk about today. I want
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  Speaker 1: to talk about the everyday anxiety, the sweaty palms, the
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  Speaker 1: heart palpitations, the tension you start to feel inside of
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  Speaker 1: like oh shoot, something big is coming up, or I
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: feel like, you know, I can't handle what's about to
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: happen to me. And what is really really tricky with
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: anxiety is if we don't recognize that and acknowledge it,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: it can start to build on each other. And so
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: a really common thing that happens to people when they
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: feel anxious is that they'll continue to ruminate on it.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: They'll be like, oh, yeah, like I am worrying, I
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: am anxious, I'm really concerned about this thing that's going
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: to happen, and that just gets more anxiety. And so
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: what we're trying to do, and what I've been studying
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: for a couple of years now, is how do we
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: break that cycle, right, because anxiety doesn't feel good. We
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: all know that feeling I always you know, if you
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: run a race and you get those like kind of
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: butterflies in your stomach, imagine that just happening all day
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: or on and off all day long. And so the
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: good news is that there are things we can do
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: to reduce the anxiety from happening. And one thing I
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: think we underestimate is how proactive anxiety can make us.
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: So a really adaptive thing we can do when we
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: feel anxious is take a step back and say, Okay,
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: feeling this, I think it's because of X. Whatever big
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: goal you have for the day, is what can I
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: proactively do to fix this today, tomorrow, the day after that,
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: and start to chip away at it. Right. We've studied
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: this in job seekers. We've studied this, which is like
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: everyday employees. We study it with athletes. Right, of how
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: can I take my anxiety and really make it inform
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: my goals so I can get the anxiety to reduce
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: or what I think is really fun, flip it into excitement.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: Because anxiety and excitement actually feel the same way in
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: our body. So when we're anxious, our heart races when
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: we're excited, our heart races, and so we can actually
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: reappraise what we're thinking to get anxiety to turn into excitement.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: And that's pretty cool, especially when you think about running
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: a race, giving a big speech, having a interaction, maybe
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: you're kind of anxious or nervous about reframing. It can
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: be really really adaptive for you.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: I feel when you fall into the anxiety trap, so
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: to speak, that as you use I believe the word
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: can feel really overwhelming.
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  Speaker 3: That then starts to.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: Get to a place where you literally just feel so
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: debilitated by it and incapable of doing what you're explaining.
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: Could be really helpful.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: So for those people that are in the place of
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: what feels like the struggle and the overwhelm, what's like
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: a simple strategy that you may offer them, or a
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: series of strategies that you might offer to them so
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: that they can slowly crawl their way out of it.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, you nailed it. Really kind of makes you
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: fall into yourself, is the way I describe anxiety when
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: it's happening to you day to day. So the biggest
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: thing I think you can do and that I do
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: this myself, I'm somebody who's always struggled with anxiety, which
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: is why I study it. There's a joke in or
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: feel that we study the things we're not good at.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: So I study employee well being and anxiety because I
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: struggle with both of those. And the biggest thing that
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: I do that fits with our research, that fits with
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: the work we're doing, is to goal set, to say,
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: here's my big goal, right, and let me break it
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: down now into all of the little things I can
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: do to cross it off my list and to start
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: to feel more control. Because anxiety crops up what we
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: feel like parts of our life are out of control,
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: that our ideal of whatever we want to have happened
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: to us is not consistent with where we currently are.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: For me, that describes like every big goal I've ever set,
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: I'll look at it and it feels monstrous and I'm like,
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: how am I ever going to get there? That's stabilitating.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to ruminate on it. Instead. What I
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: can do is say today I can chip away at
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: this one thing and take a breath. Then I can
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: go on to the next thing and the next. So
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: really goal setting and saying this is my big goal,
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: here's all the things that are going to feed into that.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: That is really really adaptive and it's going to help
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: you rain in what feels completely uncontrollable to.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: You, right right, So smart goal setting specific, measurable, attainable,
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: relevant time dound.
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: We talk about that on the show all the time.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: But yeah, that strategy of being really intentional about the
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: things you want to get done for the day is
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: maybe making a to do list of three things that
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: are within your wheelhouse instead of twenty two that just
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: feel like the big monster the second that you put
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: your eyes down and look at a pad of paper.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: Right exactly, And yeah, the smart acronym, that's something I
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: talked to executives about my undergrudges about it. It's so
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: informative and it's so simple and actionable, and yet I
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: think when we feel anxious, that's one of the things
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: that goes completely out the window, right because the anxiety,
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: for me, at least, it always manifests this really cloudy
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: feeling where I'm just like, oh, I feel like I'm
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: swirling in it. I can't really see what it is
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: that I want to do, and so I need to
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: physically goal set and start to write it out and
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: say all right, this is what I'm gonna do to
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: make this more actionable today. Here's how it's gonna help
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: me tomorrow, and here's going to help me the day after.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: That kind of Caterintuitively, one of the worst things you
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: can do when you feel anxious is to tell yourself
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: to calm down. It's completely incongruent with being anxious. So
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: if your heart's racing and pounding out of your chest
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: and you tell yourself to calm down, that's not going
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: to do anything right. You're gonna be like, I can't
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: calm down. I feel my heart. It's not going to work.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: But regulating that and trying to plan to reappraise, all
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: those things are really helpful for you when you feel anxious.
• 14:37
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  Speaker 2: get freebies with your first purchase today.
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: Let's get back to it now.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: A lot of what you described, kind of feeling like
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: you're swirling, so to speak, that feeling of overwhelm. You know,
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: there are so many different things that those symptoms, so
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: to speak, could be in line with. Maybe it's burnout here,
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: we're talking about anxiety. I know when people that I've
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: spoken to about their experience with depression, those have been
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: examples of maybe what they felt during that time as well.
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: For someone who's unsure perhaps of what it is.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: That they're really navigating, what advice do you have to
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: offer them so that they can move forward in a
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: productive and helpful way.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: That is the big question, And as I said, that's
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: something that I've had to work through. You know, the
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: last couple of years have been super, super difficult as
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: a new mom and a working mom, I've had depression
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: and anxiety and really had to try to figure out
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: where are all of those sources of anxiety or depression
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: coming from. What are the things that make me feel
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: good and help get all that back into control. And
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: so when you're feeling anxious or you're feeling depressed, because
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: those emotions can co occur with each other pretty frequently,
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: which probably isn't too much of a surprise. Again, really
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: trying to take a step back, and I like to
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: think about my life and my world as like the
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: different roles I have. Right, So I'm a mother, I'm
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: an employee, I'm a runner, I'm a wife, I'm a friend, daughter,
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: all these things and try to say, okay, what are
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: the big goals going on in each of those domains
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: and really start to map it out, because for me,
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: what that helped me do, and we see this happen
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: with people that we study. When you can isolate it,
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: you could say, all right, you know what, It's not
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: that I'm anxious in all of these domains. It's not
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: that I'm depressed or that I'm fatigued or burnout in
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: all these domains. It's this one, right, It's this worker role,
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: or this actually happened to me with marathonic. I had
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: to take a step back because the process was really
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: burning me out and I wasn't getting any joy from it.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: So I had to switch to you know, shorter races
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: and figure out how I could regain control. So I
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: like to map out, here are all the roles I have.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: Here are the big goals, and which goals am I
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: excited about? Which ones are kind of helping me thrive
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: and bring me joy and which ones aren't. Where's the
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: anxiety coming from? Where's the depression come And let's isolate
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: those out then and decide, you know, do I need
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: to modify that situation? Do I need to refocus on
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: different elements of it? Do I need to completely reappraise
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: what it is that I'm doing? Do I need to
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: abandon it?
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: And we talk I talk about this all the time,
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: that this idea of like goal abandonment, of letting go
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: of a goal. We view it as like this like, oh,
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: you failed, when in reality, I think what you just
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: did is you reclaimed part of yourself, right, you said,
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: you know what that wasn't serving me anymore? So that's
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: where the anxiety was coming from that was making me
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: feel like garbage by right, and that was a hard
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: lesson in pill for me to swallow for a long time.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: But once I did, I was like, oh, look at that.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: I just freed up a huge amount of my emotional energy.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: So that's what I like to do whenever I'm like
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: in the oh, my gosh, I can't go on kind
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: of moments, where's it coming from? And how do we
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: fix that? It doesn't mean abandoning it or changing it
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: or whatever that maybe for you.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and thanks for sharing that experience, because I feel
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: like that experience.
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: Is one that's super relatable.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: Right. This idea of goal abandonment is something that so
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: many people can really sympathize with, and the thought that
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: we need to come back to the joy in going
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: after the things that we quote unquote want, and if
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: there is no joy in your process, then maybe you
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: need to take a step back and reevaluate that goal
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: that you originally set for yourself. So that example that
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: you gave of falling back from marathoning and looking at
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: shorter distances, it involves a lot of the same methods,
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: but they are very different. And so the thought process
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: that you went through and the wisdom that it took
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: to identify, Okay, what would allow me to do this
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: thing that I like and actually enjoy it is really
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: good for.
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: You, right right? Well, and it's I think as a society,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: right and we're just programmed to not want to do that, right.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: We like the biggest, a big goal goals, and we
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: view anything that falls short of that as a failure.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: And instead, I just think it's you recrafting your life
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: in a way that serves you where you are right now.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: You know, I started running marathons and studying emotions in
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: graduate school, right, and graduate school ali very very different
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: than thirty six year old Ali professor, new mom and
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: a pandemic, right, Like those goals that I have these
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: different life stages kind of conflict, and it took a
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: while to realize that. But then once I did, I
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: was like, oh, look, I can make all these things
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: fit a little bit better. I can combat feelings of
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: depression or anxiety or fatigue and just recraft my life
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: in a way that's serving me right now. And we
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: see lots of powerful examples of that. We're actually studying
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: working moms who have postpartum depression right now. And that's
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: a big part of their journey is saying, you know what,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: I've had this really difficult thing happened to me, and
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: now I'm going to radically recraft my life in a
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: way that's going to serve me finally. Right, I'm going
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: to put me first, I'm going to make passionate towards myself.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be compassionate towards other people and abandon
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: some goals and create some new ones. And anxiety can
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: be one of those emotions that drives that kind of process.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: Right, and sometimes doing what's right for you, so to speak,
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: can be or can feel a little counterintuitive, which makes
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: it even more difficult. Uh So I think that's important
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: to highlight. I also want to go back to perhaps
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: some of the solutions or the strategies that we can
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: use in the anxiety a trap. I know that we
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: talked about setting smart goals and starting with little doables,
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: but beyond that, what other advice would you offer to
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: someone who does feel as though they are in that
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: non beatable unbeatable cycle.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: Well, I think there's some really practical things you could do.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: One is not be a shame to talk to somebody
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: about that I think we avoid it. We think that
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: you know, work or you know running or mother whatever,
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: it should not be this anxiety crippling experience, right, that
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: should not be how we feel. So if you know,
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: if you're listening to this today and you're like, I've
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: done this, I've tried setting goals, I've tried kind of
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: clarifying this, I think talking about this with somebody, asking
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: for help, reaching out. There's a lot of really good organizations.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: Anxiety and Depression Association of America has some awesome online
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: resources to kind of help you figure out is this
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: a chronic disorder or you know condition they need to
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: talk to somebody about, or is this everyday anxiety and
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: how do I navigate those? So I know I was
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: resistant to that for a while, but talking about that
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: and getting help is really really important. The other thing, though,
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: is that I think again disclosing this to other people
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: in your life is actually really important too. So when
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: we're talking about setting smart goals and doing that, that's
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: very internal, right, that's you doing work on you. But
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: I think also sharing with people close to you, right,
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: close friends, close family members, where you're struggling and getting
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: that instrumental and emotional social support for them is really
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: really crucial. You know, reaching out saying you know, I
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: fairly anxious about this work deadline, or you know this
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: relationship that I have that feels off, you can get
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: somebody else listening to you to say, hey, here's what
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: I hear you saying, and let me offer you emotional support,
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: or even better, you know what I went through that too,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: and let me talk to you about what happened to
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: me in my experience, or here's some resources that really
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: helped me work through that. Because again, if we just
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: sit in these emotions, which is kind of what we're
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: programmed to do from a really young age, is to
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: not share things if it's not all like sunshine and
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: roses and like glitter, right, we're programmed to kind of
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: sit in them. But that makes it feel really isolating.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: It feels like nobody else understands what we're experiencing. So
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: reaching out and connecting to trusted, close others is something
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: else I would really really encourage people to do. If
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: you're listening to this and you're.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: Feeling this now, such helpful advice and so important to
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: distinguish that there is clearly a difference between talking to
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: one of your dearest friends or a family member about
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: what you're going through and chatting with a licensed professional,
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: right and I know that there are so many what
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: could be considered barriers to entry when it comes to
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: consulting with a professional.
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: That can also feel really overwhelming, which.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: Isn't helpful when you already feel overwhelmed. So for those
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: individuals that are in that predicament right now trying to
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: get the help that they so desperately want, what would
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: you say to them? I, having been there, I would
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: say to just hold on and again try to find
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: people in your immediate life that can serve you right
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: now in this moment.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: For me, as somebody who studies as somebody who experienced
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: a lot of these emotions, knowing that there was somebody
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: there that I could pick up the phone and talk
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: to immediately who would take me as my whole, authentic, vulnerable,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: emotionally messy self was really really really important for me.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: That was one of my best friends, and also my
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: husband Mike, who was just kind of watching all this
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: unfold for me personally. So it is not a permanent
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: solution to getting more significant help. If that's something that
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: would serve you but I think in that moment, having
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: that safe person to call and be like, yep, this
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: is a rough day is so important to find that person.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: And if you don't have that person, come find me now.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: But truly, like I think reaching out to somebody or
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: connecting to somebody, it's happened. I've made so many friends
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: through like Twitter and Instagram and like virtual friends through
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: this process, and it's been because we've connected, We've seen
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: things that each other's sharing and we're like, hey, going
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: through that too, And then you start to build these
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: friendships around the shared experience and that's really cool.
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: And I think that what you're sharing here is like
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: one of the benefits that could happen from a difficult situation, right,
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: the difficult situation being this constant cycle of the anxiety trap.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: What other benefit can we find when we get through
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: a struggle such as this.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: I think the biggest thing that we find is just
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: this newfound resilience, right, this new found understanding of who
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: you are of what you value. For me, that's you know,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: been really really life altering of having a couple of
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: rough years where there was a lot of anxiety and
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: just varying feelings of feeling really isolated and not knowing
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: what was going on, and now it's given a lot
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: of clarity and giving me the confidence that, you know what,
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: I can bounce back, right, I can go through really
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: difficult things and bounce back from that. And so what
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: we'll see is that when people go through a lot
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: of anxiety or expiraling or depression or loneliness, these really
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: you know, difficult emotions to work through, they come out
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: on the other side with this resilience, with this coping,
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: with this better understanding of what it is that they want.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: And I think the other added bonus is there tends
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: to be a lot more self compassion for themselves. We
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: are really harm on ourselves when we feel what we
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: study people who have anxiety at work, they often think
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: that it has a lot of guilt and a lot
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: of shame, like, oh, I can't believe I can't handle this.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: I'm so mad at myself that I can't cope. I
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: will never get over how hard we were on ourselves.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: And so when we come out of this, the acts
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: of self compassion, of giving ourselves a break, of saying,
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: you know what, I was good today, right, I got
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: done what I needed to get done. It wasn't perfect,
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: but it was good. I think that is a really
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: important takeaway that I've experienced in my own life, and
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: that against some of these working women who are just phenomenal.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: We've heard them talk about as well, like, Yeah, I
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: got to their side and that's pretty that's pretty darn good,
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: and I'm proud of myself for that.
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: We love that. We love resilience here on Hurdle.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: Is there anything else that we should let the folks
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: know when it comes to navigating the anxiety trap? We
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: haven't touched on just yet.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: I think we've covered a lot. I think the biggest
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: thing is just you're not alone if you feel this way.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: It is normal to feel anxious. It is okay to
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: feel anxious, and do not view it as this failure.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: You're human, right, and let's try to help you channel
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: that anxiety into productive means to help you get on
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: with all of those awesome goals that you're setting for yourself.
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: We love it.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: Awesome, Doctor Alison Gabriel, appreciate you for your time today.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: You offered your ears. So how do the hurdlers keep
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: up with you? How do they follow along with you?
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: Give us all of your details.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: Sure, sure, so, I have a website. You can find
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: me at Alison Gabriel dot com and I'm under LinkedIn
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: or on LinkedIn under the same name. You can also
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: find me on Twitter at profas Gabriel and you'll see
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: me talking about research and food cravings and then usually
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: ran the pictures of Eleanor and our herd of cats
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: that we have somehow acquired over the last few Love.
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: It, you love it.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: I'm over at Emily Embodi and at Hurdle Podcast Another
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: Hurdle Conquered.
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: Catch you guys next time.