Latest / Scalability School / Why AI Is Making Creative Strategists Lazy (And How to Fix It) | Hannah Houg & Matthew Gattozzi

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Why AI Is Making Creative Strategists Lazy (And How to Fix It) | Hannah Houg & Matthew Gattozzi · Scalability School

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And now let's take a listen to the Scalability School podcast.
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Welcome to another episode of Scalability School. I mean, we have so much
1:52
happening today. Honestly, this episode is
1:54
going to be an absolutely wild one. First of all,
1:57
we have Brad in his car because his kids are too
2:00
loud and he's getting construction done at his house.
2:03
Matthew Gattozzi is on the episode along with
2:06
Anna Haug. This is a freaking insane episode.
2:10
You need to just wherever you are, put on a
2:13
seatbelt. If you don't, if you're not in a place where there
2:15
is a seatbelt, you probably need to buy one.
2:17
Brad, put a seatbelt on. Put a seatbelt on.
2:19
Brad is literally putting a seatbelt on
2:21
because we are going to just get into so much today.
2:25
You know, the episode, I don't know if you guys remember this, but the episode is,
2:28
is why AI is making creative strategists lazy
2:32
and how to fix it, which is just, I mean, let's,
2:36
let's like start some fights. I apparently is what
2:39
our goal was with this. But the idea is really to
2:43
kind of talk about AI in a real way as it
2:45
relates to creative strategists and what's going on.
2:48
And, you know, look, it's not a, it's like, it's
2:51
so here, right? And we're all using it. And I think
2:55
a lot of people are talking about this
2:57
degradation of thinking and that's what we're into today. So
3:01
welcome Hannah and Matthew and Brad, as always love you. So handsome.
3:07
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Live from, live from
3:09
the car. Well, I think, I think both of you have
3:11
like a really interesting perspective because
3:13
we know that both of you use AI in your flows for
3:16
sure. Right. Um, Hannah, you have some
3:18
experience with Parker and you work with Parker and that's
3:21
predominantly AI tool. Uh, and, and Matthew,
3:24
I know we haven't talked too much about this,
3:26
but like, I know you've used like definitely some
3:28
backend tools, like help organize clips and things
3:30
like that. And so it's not like we're saying
3:32
don't use AI, but what we're saying is there's a,
3:34
there's important parts of the process where you
3:37
can't just outsource your thinking in your brain,
3:39
uh, to AI completely. Uh, and so I think what
3:43
we would love to just dig in with the both of you
3:46
is, okay, how, where do those things differ? And
3:49
if somebody walks away from this, I think they walk
3:51
away saying, okay, I was doing that. That was
3:53
dumb. I should stop doing this. And instead,
3:55
this is where I insert my, my thinking brain or I
3:57
hire some really smart person to help me with this
3:59
part of the process because they just don't have
4:01
the talent to do that. And so, um, I don't know
4:03
there's anywhere in particular that you want to,
4:05
either of you want to kick off on a hand. I know you
4:07
have some, you have some thoughts on this, but,
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um, maybe where we get, maybe where it's worth
4:10
starting with is just like, um, we can start
4:13
with a simple, simple version of it is how good ads
4:15
actually get made, or we could go right into the
4:18
mistakes that people are making with AI. I don't
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know, uh, what, uh, what gets you more excited to
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talk about, but we can jump in in either direction.
4:24
Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, this is such a
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loaded and like new, um, new and upcoming problem
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in the scene that I feel like because AI
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is just like came through like a waterfall,
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we didn't really have a moment where we
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stopped and thought about anything before we started
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executing and just running wild with it. Sort of
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like the gold rush, which has been an incredible
4:51
thing. But me as a strategist and as somebody who,
4:54
who continues to write briefs and hooks and do audits
4:58
brands and, uh, help them through their creative
5:01
processes, um, it's been incredible just to see
5:05
and to understand some of the common pitfalls
5:08
that I'm noticing are weakening my creative judgment.
5:12
And so this is really just coming from a place
5:15
of personal experience, like anything that I say
5:18
today as well, because, and I do just want to
5:20
be honest about the process because I think that
5:23
that's, that's, what's going to actually be able
5:25
to help people understand how to best use it and
5:29
when to also pull back and reserve their human
5:32
judgment and, um, thinking processes. So yeah,
5:36
there's a million different directions that I
5:38
could go with this, but I think like the biggest thing
5:41
that I'm just like feeling myself and also seeing
5:45
from some of my other strategist friends and briefs
5:49
I'm getting back from so-called strategists
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in the space, et cetera, is just, um, yeah,
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we're seeing a lot of the same sameness. And the
5:58
only thing that I can really attribute that to is
6:00
that, um, you know, we haven't, is that we're,
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we're degrading a muscle that might have already
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been there, was strategically there before and
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is slowly being, um, like off-put to AI over time.
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So that's kind of like my biggest thing that I'm
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seeing and, um, yeah, I have a lot of different
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experiences from like the research phase all
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the way through the entire journey of where,
6:27
you know, common mistakes that I've found myself
6:29
in as well as, um, I'm just keeping very close eyes
6:33
on myself. So yeah, I don't know what your, uh,
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overall thoughts are Matthew from what you're seeing
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from your team, from the agency perspective.
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Um, I'm more of a siloed creative, uh, consultant
6:47
and like more boutique agency. So I only deal with
6:50
a handful of, you know, a small handful of clients,
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but, um, yeah, it's, it's been very something that
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I'm passionate about stopping before it gets too far.
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Uh, if that makes sense. So we can talk about
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what that kind of looks like here in this episode.
7:07
Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, I, I feel that I think
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it is really interesting to see how before it felt
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kind of dirty to use AI, like, especially like
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very early on, like even just a few years ago,
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felt like, uh, like, will people kind of see
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it as a bad thing that me as a service provider
7:30
is using AI now it feels like it's stupid to not
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use it. Right. And it's also gotten way better.
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So it's definitely been this kind of this, this
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real big swing. Um, but I think what happens is,
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is that a lot of people, myself included, we think
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a lot about our workflows and how we're doing things
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and we want to be efficient. We want to be fast for
7:54
our clients, et cetera. But I think, um, one thing
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that we always have to remember, and I think
8:00
because we are so focused on creative at Goodo Studios
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is what actually has made great ads like in
8:09
perpetuity. Um, so not even just thinking about
8:11
in the last like year, but like what makes great
8:14
ads. And it's usually when you can find an idea
8:18
that can break through the noise, right.
8:21
And can, can have something that is different,
8:24
that is interesting, that usually breaks the
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rules. Um, and this is true. Like when you,
8:30
when you think about like some of the best ad
8:32
campaigns or whatever, they've done something,
8:34
they had some sort of insight, they did something,
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they, they showed something that was very different.
8:39
Right. And so I think that like, uh, AI is very
8:44
good at following rules, right. But it's not good
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at breaking rules. And it, even if you're trying
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to prompt it, it has to kind of be confined in a
8:53
certain space. And so I think what's happening
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oftentimes is that people are focused so much
9:02
on efficiency and the creation of the ads and in
9:05
the strategy and a lot of other facets that then
9:08
they get a lot of ads out. And then they're
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thinking, well, why are we not hitting scale?
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Why are we not blank? And it's like, well, you
9:15
need a different style. You need a different format.
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And usually your workflow is kind of set for a
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certain style or efficiency, like towards a certain
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way. And even if you took AI out of it, like, I
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still think that your team setup would kind of
9:31
probably go the same route anyway. Like AI is just
9:33
like making that even more obtuse. So the reality
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is, is that if you are not encouraging people to
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really have out there ideas and really get off of AI
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to do that, whether that's finding inspiration,
9:51
trying to combine two different ideas from very
9:53
different industries into one or whatever, if
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you're not teaching how to build formats and new
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ideas, then I don't think that AI can like really
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help you there. And I think that's what's getting
10:07
missed for a lot of brands and agencies. And we're
10:10
seeing that. And that's something that I've realized,
10:13
like, we have to protect that. Or else, like,
10:16
we're just going to be an efficiency shop. And
10:19
that's not what Goodo Studios was built to do. And,
10:22
you know, it's really about protecting the mission
10:25
more so than anything else.
10:27
So let's talk about this. So one is like, how
10:30
do we go through and help people make better ads?
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Because I think right now, what's happened is
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you guys have talked about, you know, it comes,
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AI comes through and it's become a volume game.
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And it's like, how quickly can we get this stuff out?
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So where is the process being messed up? So I
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think right now, let's just as a creative strategist,
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what a lot of what people are doing is, you know,
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they're utilizing AI for research. And that I think
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that's okay. And I think that seems to be good.
11:00
I think that where we have seen a degradation in
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quality of, and also like, help doesn't help in
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making a better ad is within the briefing process.
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I don't know what you guys think. But it's, it's
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almost like, there, you know, you look at somebody
11:19
like who's Mr. Anti AI, like Harry Delmage, and he
11:22
doesn't do any, you know, his team is like deeply
11:24
researching. And that's, that's what that's
11:27
what they're doing. And he talked about that in a
11:29
previous episode. And so what are what do you
11:32
guys see in terms of, you know, those that are
11:35
actually making ads that are absolute bangers?
11:39
You know, are they is it that they're researching,
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you know, manually, or they're using maybe
11:45
AI little, and then they're briefing manually,
11:47
as well? Or what is it?
11:51
Yeah, for me, I mean, I, I'm with Matt on like,
11:56
going back to the basics and keeping things very
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simple. Because those are the things that have
12:02
worked time and time again. And so, like making
12:06
sure that we're focused on just like, the basics
12:10
of advertising principles, is it, is it real? Is it
12:13
simple? Is it novel? Is it going to solve like
12:16
the problem in the viewers mind? So those are like,
12:21
from a very high level, some of the things I'm
12:23
seeing, but I feel like right now, and I don't
12:26
know, I feel like more of the thing that I've
12:32
been heightened and aware of is what's making like,
12:36
poor decisions and poor ads right now. And I know
12:39
that that's crazy, because we always want to focus
12:42
on like, what is making a good ad. But that's
12:45
the whole point of even kind of like, my hypothesis
12:50
around, around this is like, you, when it
12:55
comes to AI, like, what I've realized it cannot do,
12:59
is come up with the big idea, like, in plain old
13:03
David Ogbe's like, understanding, and that's where
13:07
I've seen it fall short, time and time again. So if
13:10
you don't have a big idea, and you don't even have
13:13
a format that you're like, thinking of between
13:16
those two things, what do you actually really have?
13:19
And so I've just seen like, this, this very
13:23
ineffective form of prompting, hoping and doing
13:29
all seemingly the right things with AI,
13:31
finding extracting your personas, understanding and
13:35
pulling out customer data to support it. But when it
13:39
comes to like, actually building the ad, the literal
13:44
idea, the connective tissue of it, like falls
13:47
completely short. And that's just because AI doesn't
13:50
have the opportunity to visualize an idea to an
13:55
extent that the human mind can, we can find one really
13:59
strong winner, and plug it into AI and say, like,
14:03
hey, how can we make like multiple formats, and it
14:06
will give us some like surface level ideas. But
14:09
nothing will at this point in time, be able to beat
14:12
the human ability to sit down and to understand
14:18
all the different mechanisms from that audience
14:20
perspective, format wise, that are possible within
14:24
a simple ad. So right there, you're already breaking
14:28
because you're leaving ads on potential ads on
14:33
the table within something that's already worked
14:36
before. And so I think like the the trap is
14:39
like trying to use it to find not only yes, we're
14:43
shortcutting thinking right now, which we can
14:46
get into a little bit later. But we're also like
14:49
shortcutting our end result or the open loop
14:52
in our head, because the open loop becomes just
14:55
efficiency, getting the ad out there versus
14:59
like actually coming to AI with a true hypothesis.
15:04
And now what I'm seeing is more and more
15:06
strategists relying on AI to give them those
15:09
hypothesis that are running their strategies.
15:13
And I think that's such a dangerous game to play.
15:16
And I have found myself. I found myself in that
15:20
exact same trap before. And the the trade off is
15:26
you're not able to validate. And if you don't
15:29
have human mind that's able to validate, both with
15:32
intuition and data, then you are you're you're
15:38
walking, you're actually walking blind. So I don't know.
15:41
Um, that's I'm, I'm super focused on the
15:43
mistakes right now. Maybe that's just because I'm also
15:46
building a tool that I'm able to really is like
15:50
a red light of how people prompt and people work
15:55
within these systems. Um, and it's, it can be
15:58
alarming to see, um, what we're just so willing to
16:03
accept without, um, and assume, and we already
16:06
know what kills most ads are assumptions. And so
16:10
if we are the ones that are prompting this tool
16:15
and also taking those assumptions, then how much
16:20
are we actually like leading on the table? Um, so
16:24
it's something that I'm, I'm, I'm very cautious of.
16:29
Um, and when it comes to making good ads, I
16:32
have like, I know that sounds super kosher to say,
16:35
go back to the basics, but this is what I mean.
16:39
Like I do not go to AI to write a script first
16:43
anymore. And I used to, um, I used to play
16:46
around like that. We don't do that anymore because I
16:49
realized, um, not just the quality of my copywriting
16:53
or my scripts was degrading, but every time I would
16:56
open up my laptop and try to go write a script, I
17:01
would have a hard time doing it all of a sudden.
17:03
And I've been doing this for five years. So
17:05
then something, so where can this be attributed to?
17:08
It can only be attributed to my brain knowing
17:10
that there is a faster way of thinking, a more
17:14
efficient way. And so for it to unlock from out
17:17
of that, I actually have to untrain it already.
17:21
And it's only been a few months since my mind's
17:24
been operating this way. So I think it's just like
17:27
really, really important to take a step back
17:30
before you just like follow the races, which is what,
17:34
which is the tendency and the, and the fear to
17:38
continue moving on. Um, and that's how the best,
17:43
the best ads are going to get made. And instead
17:45
of like encouraging your team and making them like,
17:48
understand how to be AI efficient, otherwise
17:51
your job's going to get replaced. It's like,
17:53
we actually have to be training the perfect
17:56
balance of the two. And we don't know how to do that.
18:00
Well, that is something that we actually have to
18:02
use our brains to think about. Okay. I'm off my
18:04
pedestal. No, that's good. It's good. And I think
18:07
it'd be interesting to dig into. So I think there's,
18:09
there's, there's the, there's the negative side
18:11
of it, which I think is important to address. So
18:12
people maybe stop making the mistakes that I think
18:14
we're all seeing. So I think, uh, I think it'd be
18:17
quick, cool to quick go around the horn and just
18:19
say like, okay, this is something that we saw that
18:20
specifically happened in the last week, or it's
18:22
like, this is a really bad use of AI. And then
18:24
we can kind of pivot into, okay. Um, like you
18:27
mentioned, um, the idea, like actually having
18:29
the idea and Matthew, you mentioned like finding
18:31
the, finding the big idea and like actually knowing
18:33
where to go to research that and come up with
18:35
that. Uh, Harry talked about, uh, doom scrolling last
18:38
time we, like last time we talked about this, just
18:40
like doom scrolling organic. Uh, and so I'll kick it
18:42
off with, uh, with some mistakes that I've seen.
18:45
One of the, one of the things I've seen in the last
18:46
like couple of weeks is, um, we've had folks who
18:49
are just like, they do like, uh, how long is the
18:52
ad analysis? And it's like, okay, uh, fit 10
18:54
seconds, 15 seconds, 30 seconds, 60 seconds. And
18:57
here's the, here's the efficiency associated
18:58
with that. It's just like, okay, what's in the ad?
19:02
Cause you could, you can make a static ad
19:03
that, that converts extremely well and there's no,
19:05
there's no motion to it. Um, and so it's like having, just going to AI and saying,
19:09
what's the most effective length of like video
19:11
is just like, okay, well you can tell a story in a
19:14
second or, you know, if you have good copywriting
19:16
or you can, you can over explain it over the course
19:18
of three minutes and get nothing accomplished.
19:20
Um, and so like, that's a specific use case where
19:22
I've seen, uh, some issues happen like recently.
19:25
And, um, that's a common one that pretty, pretty
19:26
often pops up. Um, but maybe as you all think
19:29
about your process and math, I'll kick it over to you.
19:31
Like, as you think about your process, um, where
19:34
do you like refuse to use AI because you've seen
19:37
these mistakes? Um, just like what, uh, specific
19:40
example for where you're seeing a pop up would be
19:41
sweet. Yeah. I think, I think the, the, the big
19:45
ideas, right. So I think the reason why people are
19:49
struggling with AI is because they don't
19:52
actually know their workflow to come up with content,
19:55
right? Like let's take AI out of the picture.
19:59
Like, let's say five years ago, how did you make an ad?
20:02
We, you know, like it sounds ridiculous. I was
20:05
just saying that, but it's true. Like what was
20:06
the process, right? Like you'd have to like
20:09
find things you're searching, you're thinking about
20:11
the world. So I find that like, anytime somebody
20:16
is like prompting, like Claude to be like, give me
20:21
like, like whatever, put in, uh, the CSV of,
20:27
of, you know, Facebook ads report and being like,
20:29
they're, what are they going to do? Like find
20:31
out like from the naming convention, like what the
20:34
best like ad, uh, you know, is. And ultimately
20:39
like the problem with that is that it's because
20:41
it's only looking at what is exists now, but the
20:44
best brands are always creating ideas that do not
20:47
exist, right? That is how you get scale. And you
20:50
think about like what makes, uh, any brand successful.
20:53
It's when they can open up the aperture of their
20:57
marketing funnel. And how do you do that? You have
20:59
to go through new messages, new styles, new
21:03
formats, not what is already existing currently.
21:06
And I think that what I try to get my strategist
21:09
to do is they they're going on walks during the day.
21:14
They're taking notes, right? They're thinking about things.
21:17
We want people to use AI when they already have
21:22
that idea, um, or they already have certain things
21:26
that then it can help in like go quicker. So for
21:30
example, it could be, I know I need to do research
21:33
about how the weighted blanket can affect a
21:36
man's testosterone and deep sleep. Okay. I, I can't,
21:40
I can't, I'm not going to go read a medical book
21:43
about that, right? I'm going to go to AI for that,
21:45
but I, I myself found that link. Oh, that's a
21:50
new persona that we should hit on. If we get more
21:52
specific there, maybe there's a link that we
21:54
could do, right? So that's me doing dishes,
21:57
thinking about that, trying to solve the problem
21:59
for my client. Now I'm going to go to AI to do that.
22:02
Or I have this visual that I saw, like this would
22:06
be the most incredible hook. We're going to do this.
22:09
Now, when I go to AI, I already am, I have
22:13
the purpose. I am using it to maybe make things
22:15
faster, but you've got to be able to, you know, go in and, and, and get, uh, ideas.
22:22
The word taste comes up a lot. The problem
22:24
with when people use taste and usually it's people
22:27
without taste, but, um, the, the, the problem
22:30
with that is to have taste, you have to have
22:32
experiences, right? And so you've got to go and
22:35
live life. You've got to go and watch reality TV,
22:39
watch commercials, doom scroll, do all of the
22:43
things, right? Like that is where you're going
22:45
to get ideas to then connect it. And like Hannah
22:48
was saying, like, there's this idea and the idea
22:50
is the connective tissue across like the ad itself.
22:53
And it's like, most people are just not like living
22:57
life to do that. And I think they're just hoping
23:00
that this almighty Claude is going to like prompt
23:02
them into like success. And like, the reality is,
23:05
is like getting off your computer, reading books,
23:08
like meeting people, talking to friends, like
23:11
that worked five years ago, 20 years ago. And that's
23:14
like the same thing. I think AI can accelerate how
23:18
you do certain things, but it's got to come from the
23:20
soul of the person. Um, so I think that's totally
23:24
what's missing in a lot of the, a lot of marketing,
23:27
I think to your point, Hannah, right. It like goes
23:28
back to the classics and I think that's true. And I think
23:31
you, you know, it's, it's like one of the things
23:33
that a lot of folks are doing is they're outsourcing
23:37
the insight to AI, like letting AI decide what's
23:41
interesting about the customer instead of doing
23:43
the research themselves. Right. And when you
23:45
get to that stage, that's really dangerous because
23:48
it loses the judgment that you have as a human.
23:51
Um, and you know, so I think if I look across those
23:54
people that are really successful right now
23:56
that are creating ads that are really working, um,
24:00
it's not to say none of them are AI generated or
24:04
that AI hasn't played a role in feeding the deep
24:07
context into it, um, of customer language,
24:10
brand voice, the offer, that kind of thing.
24:13
But predominantly there's been a heavier hand
24:16
of the person doing, let's say 80% of that ad was
24:22
generated or created by a human. And that that's
24:26
like, and there's, you know, so it's like, it's
24:28
aided, but it's not necessarily the whole thing.
24:30
It's not even close to the whole thing. It's just
24:32
20% of it. And I guess I would be curious of
24:34
like, what else you have all seen of ads that are
24:40
performing in accounts? What are the common
24:44
traits of that ad? And where has AI played a role?
24:48
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fixed it. Or has AI played a role in that? I mean, I think I
26:02
think what's winning right now that I'm seeing is just
26:05
being able to be more hyper specific. So like, the more
26:10
specific you can be the better, I think AI can help
26:13
that because you can find like, for example, I'm looking
26:18
at medical conditions. How can this one product
26:20
touch all of these different people, but now I can be
26:23
hyper specific. So instead of just being general in
26:26
what I'm saying, like this thing can help with your
26:29
sleep. I am saying this can help for this specific
26:32
type of person. And you're really like going more specific
26:36
to that. And I think meta now is at a place where
26:39
you it's going to find the right people, the creative
26:43
is the one that's doing the targeting, put in
26:45
landing pages, you putting some other things, and you can
26:47
really start to build like these super niche, like
26:50
funnels, if you will. And I just think that like,
26:55
that's what to me is working. And then there's
26:57
just styles and formats based on that, right? Like,
27:00
can a yapper work for one person? Yes, but maybe
27:03
not for the other, right? So if you know exactly who
27:06
you're trying to reach, then you would know what
27:08
styles and formats they would need or want, and
27:11
then go from there. But to me, it's about hyper
27:14
specificity. How do you find like, are you doing,
27:19
are you doing like manual research to find that is
27:21
AI helping? Like, how do you like, if you even if you
27:23
have an example top of mind, you meant you mentioned
27:25
the weighted blankets earlier. It's like, how do you get
27:27
that insight in the first place? Is it the
27:28
review mining, and you're manually doing the review
27:30
mining? Is it you have AI present? Here's like,
27:33
here's, okay, we bucketed the 70, 70,000 reviews
27:37
you have in these five personas. And here's like
27:39
specific examples of language that people are like,
27:41
yeah, like, let's dig into, okay, how do you
27:43
take a take something and go deeper, and then more
27:46
specific. And then the format thing you said was
27:49
interesting, too. So if you want to tie in that,
27:51
that's great. It's like, okay, now that we've
27:52
gone more specific, we know that we're going for a
27:54
mail 60 and up. We know that they spend a lot of
27:56
time on Facebook. We know what they respond to.
27:58
They say they spend all their time in Facebook
28:00
marketplace. Like, how are you? Yeah, I think
28:02
you know what I'm getting at. It's like, yeah,
28:03
yeah. Well, how are the threads? How are you pulling
28:05
those threads? So very like the downside of review,
28:08
review mining, even if you did it manually and read
28:11
through all the reviews is like, it's like, there
28:13
are times where you will find a nugget where you're
28:16
like, whoa, a persona that we haven't talked to
28:19
decided to buy this. But a lot of times it's like,
28:23
well, you're going to get reviews from the people you've already been marketing to,
28:26
right? So like, you may or may not get like
28:30
the new personas and the new things because like,
28:32
you haven't been talking to those people. So they
28:33
why would they come and buy from you anyway? Right?
28:36
But first, this specific reason, our example, you
28:40
know, we did see that some parents were using it
28:44
for their kids, they mentioned ADHD with
28:46
their kids. So then you're like, oh, okay, cool.
28:49
Neurodivergence. You could do that for adults.
28:52
And then you're thinking, okay, well, what other
28:54
health claims could you go to? And then you
28:56
start to expand that. And then using AI to say,
29:00
how does a weighted blanket, maybe there's
29:03
research that's connects to that. And there
29:04
happened to be specific, like, because I searched
29:08
on AI, there were certain medical journals that did
29:12
link to certain things. And you're like, this
29:14
is great. Now I literally have a case study or a
29:16
clinical study on this. Like, I wouldn't have
29:18
thought to have found that I'm not searching
29:20
medical stuff. But I had some sort of insight.
29:24
But I think also be careful because you may not find
29:27
new personas in the reviews. So you also have
29:29
to, again, think about how do you expand that.
29:31
And that's, I think, where the AI falls short is
29:35
because you always are needing to press and push
29:40
and expand that aperture of the funnel. And
29:42
that's, that's got to come from you and you alone,
29:45
because AI is rules based. And you got to find how
29:48
can we break those rules? How can we expand that?
29:52
So, you know, then you go from there, you're
29:54
like, okay, how can I use research? How can I like,
29:57
you know, understand it? And I think that like, I
30:00
think like the value of AI is that you can have an
30:03
idea and you can validate it faster. And then that
30:06
can give you, you know, do you spend the time and
30:10
effort to get that made, that ad to get made and
30:13
all that stuff. You can, you can test that out way
30:16
sooner before, right? And you can also be able to
30:20
test out, you can spin up an ad into a lander very
30:23
quickly now. So you can test personas and more niche
30:27
things way quicker than you were before. So there is
30:31
value to AI, of course, but you've got to make
30:35
sure that your team has space to think. And I think
30:40
the problem right now is that AI is suffocating
30:44
people because they are told to do more. And what
30:47
we really needed to be is we need to give people
30:49
space to think so that it can accelerate once they're
30:53
ready to take action. So yeah, that's, that's my
30:56
big thing right there. And I just said that yesterday
30:58
I was talking about it in reference to
31:01
copywriting and how, yeah. So I don't know, Hannah, I don't
31:06
know if you want to talk about this, but you know,
31:08
I know like, how do you feel like copy and the way
31:12
to write copy and that type of like protecting
31:15
copywriting almost like within this for a creative
31:19
strategist? Cause I feel like that's a lot of
31:21
the magic that a creative, like a real creative
31:24
can put into a brief, um, especially within the
31:27
cues and within like what the cuts might be. Um,
31:31
if it's really strong, um, I'd love to hear your opinion on that.
31:34
Yeah, no, I think, okay. And this is a hot take
31:38
maybe, but like, I have yet to see a single LLM
31:43
platform be able to like seemingly crack
31:46
copywriting, like be able to actually create a good script.
31:52
I mean, you guys are welcome to like fight, but
31:54
like, even with deep context, with what is deep
31:59
context to have like a perfectly copywritten ad is
32:03
like almost near impossible at this point in time.
32:07
Um, obviously those things can change, but I
32:10
rather be on the side of things as a strategist,
32:13
especially as I see how much is still out there
32:18
that is subpar, um, when it comes to good copywriting
32:22
from said strategy and strategist teams, and even
32:26
founders, brand owners right now, still like common
32:29
sense isn't always common practice. Um, so
32:33
yeah, that's one of the biggest things that I have,
32:36
um, been attuned to, like I said earlier with, um,
32:40
just realizing that that is a muscle that needs to
32:44
constantly be flexed and that I'm hesitant to give
32:49
away to AI, because if you were to write a pros and
32:52
cons list, the cons list is so much greater than
32:56
what I would think is the, uh, a more appropriate
32:59
balance because I'm obviously not, I'm also not
33:02
for having the same strategist in the account writing
33:07
every single ad, because you're kidding yourself
33:10
also, if you don't think that that strategist, like
33:14
assumptions, biases, tone of writing, it is effective
33:20
for every single ad. Like that's also, um, on the flip
33:25
side of quite being, you know, the dichotomy. Um,
33:30
so where I have found success and where I've also
33:33
seen you asked earlier, like what are the best
33:35
brands that are actually hitting these numbers
33:37
doing? I can guarantee you that they are providing
33:42
the creator. So talent, that was one of the other
33:44
things, Matt, that I do think was missed in
33:46
terms of like the best, uh, brands right now. And for
33:50
something we're super focused on is just that
33:53
talent match. No longer can we just like afford to
33:57
have a subpar creator, but they need to be
34:00
able to affect, they are part of the message.
34:03
They are not just an actor. They are literally
34:06
part of the message. And so when you're writing copy
34:09
for these ads, for these individuals, which we all
34:12
know, Yapper ads and all these things, it's like,
34:14
now it becomes less of like just a pure copywriting
34:18
skill, but an extraction skill or a briefing skill,
34:22
right? Extraction from the talent and briefing to
34:26
them. And so where I found the balance is using,
34:29
um, you know, AI through these research processes,
34:33
through knowing your persona, I'm a big proponent
34:36
of coming to AI already with your hypothesis,
34:39
kind of like what Matt said earlier, and to use it as
34:42
further validation and backup, uh, versus just
34:46
like, what should I be doing here? What persona should I
34:48
hit versus, um, and to, yeah, to create ads that
34:55
give the creator and use AI to structure those briefs
35:00
in a way that give creative strategists their best
35:03
playing field, which is that ideation, that persona,
35:06
uh, uh, identification, that, that big idea that
35:12
they can craft the brief around, create talking points,
35:15
potentially even hooks for the creator, and then let
35:18
the creator speak or write the script in their own words.
35:23
And then we get to tidy it up just from a very
35:26
like pacing, um, you know, visuals standpoint.
35:31
And that allows us to have more winners because we're
35:35
actually authentically speaking in the customer voice.
35:37
So yes, as a strategist, you can go, you can go
35:41
mine, you can go and create ads from those reviews,
35:45
but nothing's also going to, uh, change an actual,
35:48
like as close to the real customer as you can get
35:51
and letting them cook with a little bit of direction.
35:54
And my process has only gotten stronger with AI
35:58
with that. Um, but it's in a combination of me,
36:03
again, stepping back because I cannot rely on AI
36:06
for those big ideas to have that, those creative,
36:10
um, formats, um, or to contextually apply from
36:16
experience to experience. I can't offload that
36:20
thinking. So, um, yeah, when it comes to
36:22
copywriting, the biggest thing that I have done is to try to
36:26
write the ad myself or to write it in the most
36:29
simplest forms first, if I am writing the script
36:32
and if not just like effectively crafting the
36:35
message, um, in bullet points even so that if I can
36:40
explain it through just that, then a creator is
36:44
going to be able to speak upon it as well. Um,
36:47
and so it's just, it's really helped get
36:49
those authentic, like more authentic ads, um,
36:53
from those, uh, specific talent, which is a
36:56
huge portion of the unlocks right now, as we know,
36:59
creators are pretty much make it or break it in
37:01
2026 and beyond. Yeah. I feel like you can get AI to
37:07
like, you can get AI to give you a good script,
37:10
but your input has to be so good and not from like a
37:15
copy my prompt input. I'm talking like you
37:19
already have had to have had the insights,
37:22
the everything that you wanted, like you
37:24
kind of need it to be like prebuilt. And like,
37:27
that's kind of how I approach copywriting now is
37:29
like, everything is prebuilt kind of in my head.
37:33
And that's just like my process. Like it is
37:35
about soaking things in. I'm seeing other things. I
37:38
actually might be writing things down on paper or
37:40
whatever. When I'm going to actually do the brief,
37:43
this is pretty much done. Right. It's cause
37:45
I already have the ideas. I already found the
37:47
inspiration. I already know everything that
37:49
I want. So like you can get that, but like,
37:52
if you're starting the process, like way back
37:56
with AI and just hoping that, you know, it's going to
37:58
give you that output, it's just not, you know?
38:01
Um, and so I think that's like the, the biggest
38:04
difference is like how you, it is a tool, how you
38:07
use it and how prepared you are when you are using
38:10
that tool is the difference. Um, less so like,
38:14
like again, like how good the prompt is. It's
38:17
really about like the insights that you're
38:19
pumping in and that's going to come from you.
38:21
If you let it drive, I mean, it's going to take over the whole thing.
38:24
Just want to ask a follow-up, like what, what are
38:26
the good inputs look like? Like give, can you be,
38:27
like give a specific example? Um, either of you,
38:30
like what is, if you want to get a good output,
38:32
what, what are the requirements going in? Is it
38:34
a specific persona and how to find it is like,
38:37
maybe use persona as the, as a deep example. It's like, what,
38:40
what is the, what is the specific detail that
38:42
you're saying? Is it, is it as simple as men's
38:45
16 up? And I'm assuming it's not, right? Like
38:47
there's a lot of more information that goes into
38:49
it, but like what makes it, what makes a good input?
38:51
Hmm. So we already have like our process where
38:57
we've built out a brand intelligence document.
39:00
That's like all of the information about the
39:02
brand, everything is like there. So one, just having,
39:07
you don't want to start the AI prompt with
39:10
it, like starting to like crawl the website. So
39:12
having everything already like dialed in
39:14
and ready to go, that's like step number one.
39:17
Then I'm coming in with like, I might just
39:21
literally say like, I, I will like put whisper flow on and I
39:27
will just talk it out. Like this is who I'm trying
39:30
to reach. I'm trying to hit whatever the pain point
39:33
or like, I really want to speak to this emotion.
39:35
And there's, you know, plenty of things that we do
39:37
in our process that like would relate to it. So
39:40
it's not just like a generalized person. It's like
39:43
personas to me, it doesn't really matter. I
39:45
care more about like the psychographics of things,
39:47
but like, I want to speak directly to like the
39:50
parent that feels wired after a long day of work
39:53
or ends with kids and like, they need the
39:55
weighted blanket. Right. Um, you're speaking to like
39:59
everything. I might even have like formats of
40:02
like, Hey, I really want it to be like this.
40:04
This is what I want to talk about. I might even
40:06
like say lines. Like I usually have like lines or
40:10
words that I really, really like that just feel
40:13
really like, like it just energizes me when I'm
40:16
thinking about the idea. So I'm giving all of
40:19
that there. And then I'm just like seeing what comes
40:21
back and playing with it. Sometimes if you already
40:24
have, like, I love this script from another video
40:27
and I want to use the structure of this, like
40:30
there's things you can do. Um, but like, again,
40:33
having a lot of that deep research already done
40:37
and like, you know, exactly what you're trying to
40:39
accomplish. And like one thing when it comes
40:41
to briefing, and this is before you even get to
40:44
writing the script is there should always be a
40:47
one sentence goal or angle and everything else is
40:51
judged by that. Like, does the, does the brief
40:55
actually accomplish what you wanted out of this?
40:58
And that's what I teach my strategist, because if
41:01
I'm reviewing their brief, I need to know what's,
41:04
what's the goal of this. Cause then I'm going to
41:06
judge the script on that goal that you had set out.
41:10
Right. And so I think the same is true. I think
41:12
people just need to be clear what they're trying
41:14
to accomplish in the first place. And then that
41:16
will probably improve their outputs already because
41:19
most people just don't even know what they're
41:21
doing. Um, and not because they're not capable
41:23
marketers, but more so like they are not, um,
41:28
very exact about what is the goal of this ad.
41:33
Um, and I think that that gets missed a lot.
41:36
Yeah. Sorry. I didn't mean to jump in, but I'm
41:38
curious, like what, what does the goal mean? Like
41:40
if you, like when you ask a strategist to tell you
41:42
what the goal, you said it's a one sentence thing,
41:43
which I think is awesome. That's super cool. I like
41:45
that a lot. Is it, we want this person to
41:47
experience this emotion and then buy as a result of it? Or
41:50
like, what is, can you give an example? What is
41:51
the end by the end of watching this, uh, video,
41:55
who do you want to be continuing to watch this
41:58
and what do you want them to gain feel or see?
42:00
Right. And so, cause part of it should be like,
42:04
are you kicking the right, the wrong people out?
42:07
Right. Like you really want it to be like, I don't
42:09
want a random dude watching this. I want a specific
42:11
parent that has a specific, uh, you know,
42:14
experience to, to, to be the person watching
42:17
this. And this is what I want them to know or
42:19
learn at the end of it, that their kids can improve,
42:23
you know, their neurodivergence, you know,
42:25
experience, whatever through this weighted
42:26
blanket and this can help them, blah, blah, blah,
42:28
blah. Great. Now does that brief that you just sent
42:31
me, does that, do we get to that end state? Right.
42:35
And so it's really about what's the end state of the
42:37
viewer. Most people are not even thinking about that. Right. And that's just like,
42:41
now we're not even talking about AI. And I
42:43
think that's the problem is people, you just
42:44
throw in AI now they're just like tool, tool, AI
42:47
quad. And it's like, let's just get back to the
42:49
basis of great advertising. Like, what are we
42:52
trying to get people to feel at the end of watching
42:54
something? Most people just can't even answer
42:57
that question. And so that's like, that's why like AI
42:59
sucks or is good or bad, whatever is because
43:02
like, they're not even thinking about the practical
43:04
parts of like what is advertising. It's to get
43:07
people to feel something, to make a decision to
43:10
buy something. Yeah. Hannah, are there any other
43:12
inputs that you would add? Yeah, I would absolutely
43:15
double down on, and I'm right with Matthew. Like
43:18
when I think about AI, even script writing, for
43:22
example, if we want to just like stick in the
43:24
script writing, it's like there, it is virtually,
43:28
it is a death sentence just to start from zero,
43:30
as we all know. And so having what Matt was saying
43:34
was like a big idea or a format are really kind
43:39
of like the only two things outside. I mean, you
43:43
can do some person, like you could have your, when
43:45
I say persona, please know that I don't just mean
43:48
like 65 plus and, you know, gray haired man, like
43:51
we've, we've done the work to, to hone in on one.
43:55
And I think that that's something that I've seen
43:58
in terms of like input versus an output right now.
44:01
So everyone is super excited about Andromeda and
44:05
it being able to like serve to persona. So personas
44:08
become like this hot topic, right? And so the trap
44:11
that I've seen a lot of brands fall into right now
44:14
is just like relying on AI to like, and from an
44:17
endpoint standpoint, just like extract those. Great.
44:20
They're done. Found them because that's better than
44:23
I could do as a human. And what I have found to be
44:27
more effective is to focus in on just one, like,
44:31
and to focus in on the one that's like already worked
44:34
for you. And to, because there's likely you, you
44:37
have left so many potential angles and messaging on
44:42
the table. So when it comes to like my input
44:45
with, when prompting and through my research phases,
44:48
I've really stopped trying to, and I'll have a
44:51
lot of brands like come in and say like, okay,
44:53
I'm hiring you to like, help me figure out who
44:55
my personas are. And I really have to come back to
44:58
them and say, and understand too, like, this is
45:02
all great, but like, does your budget even support
45:06
being able to effectively reach seven different
45:09
personas, even though AI told you that it's a good
45:12
idea too? We cannot even effectively reach them
45:15
because we haven't effectively reached one yet.
45:18
You can't effectively spend on all those ads.
45:21
Oh, I automated a hundred ads. You're not even
45:24
spending enough to statistically
45:26
significantly find out if those hundred ads work. I mean,
45:29
it's so true. It's so true.
45:31
It's so true. And sacrificing the name of your
45:34
brand or like not growing in parallel. And that's like,
45:38
you know, a whole different conversation, but just, yeah, from an input standpoint,
45:43
I have like really tried to dial it down
45:46
because I did find myself getting lost in analysis,
45:50
getting lost in just all, all these kinds of
45:55
emotional mappings and trigger analysis. And,
45:59
and then I would go in prompt with a LLM on a basic
46:01
standpoint and realize that when it comes back to me
46:04
for a persona, it's actually telling me that
46:07
what I would consider are just plain triggers.
46:10
That is a persona. I'm like, so you have to
46:12
even know what you're looking for to begin with,
46:15
because you get in there and someone can blindly
46:18
say, great, these are my personas. An example might
46:21
be, um, I don't know, like a Catholic
46:25
mother, whatever for this thing. And it's like, no,
46:30
just the fact that she's Catholic, isn't her
46:32
persona. That's what I would call an identity be
46:35
overlay, which is just a thing that she assumes
46:39
because of her religion, but that can go across
46:42
many different personas. So when you start
46:44
segregating this quickly, it, you, you really
46:48
get lost. So from an input output standpoint, I'm
46:52
just like focused on like dialing it into like a very
46:56
narrow focus of, um, what I am trying to accomplish
47:01
or the goal of that ad, the persona that I'm trying
47:04
to build and we can get to the rest. Like, I
47:07
think that the trap is like, we just think we have to
47:10
keep up with everyone else because they're having
47:12
answers for their personas. And, and my, I actually
47:15
am on the opposite standpoint, because like Matt
47:18
said earlier, they're like, the reason we're in
47:21
this position is because most strategists don't
47:23
even know why they believe what they believe. Um,
47:27
and that's like really forced. They'll come to
47:30
prompt or to create an ad and they're just really
47:33
going off of best practices or what they've heard
47:35
on Twitter is working for someone else, but it's
47:38
really through those lived experiences that we're
47:41
able to like have that judgment. So if you take that
47:44
away and the lived experience becomes AI, then
47:47
like, yeah, we're, we're, we're in trouble there.
47:51
So from a, from a prompting standpoint, I, I,
47:54
I just, I just rather teams take the long road.
47:59
And that's like my biggest takeaway is, and what
48:01
I mean by the long road is like, everyone throws
48:04
around the idea of deep context. Like, what does
48:06
that mean? What is deep context? Like, cause everyone
48:09
says, Oh yeah, I brought deep context in and I'm
48:12
like, how it's been a month. So you mean to tell me
48:16
you brought a up or AI up to speed on the past five
48:20
years of your business and you now know everything
48:23
like in order to, what does deep context mean?
48:26
How do you actually feed it into your systems?
48:29
And that's like a whole nother conversation we could
48:31
have. But my, my, um, big thing is for brands to take
48:36
the long road when it comes to like building out the
48:39
systems that support like this balance alongside of
48:43
your creative strategists and to focus almost
48:46
on that first versus like the output of your ads,
48:50
because that will come. And if you can help
48:53
your strategists and your teams build the, the,
48:57
the true deep systems, which I can't go into all
48:59
of that now, but like the true architecture and deep
49:02
systems of your brand the right way and play that
49:07
longer road and allow them in the process to just
49:10
experiment and have fun, use AI in your own life,
49:14
not for like work all the time. Then I think that
49:18
we're going to be able to see, um, just like more,
49:21
more like long-term efficient ads, or those are the
49:24
brands that are going to be around longer who
49:26
are taking that longer road. So shortcut thinking
49:29
kills. Absolutely. And it can happen at an org, org
49:33
level too. I've seen it. I've seen it happen every
49:35
day. It's, it's scary. Yeah. I think it's, I think,
49:38
I think it's interesting because I, I think there's
49:40
a whole bunch of stuff that was talked about there.
49:42
And I'm, I, to me, the most interesting stuff that
49:45
we got into was, and I think the thematic pieces
49:49
of this are there's people are trying to take a lot
49:54
of shortcuts, right? That's not necessarily a bad
49:57
thing. There can be shortcuts to manual things that
50:01
took, you know, that did take a long time
50:02
previously reading reviews, whatever, right? Like that can be
50:06
efficient. But I think in terms of actually
50:08
speaking long-term to the customer and having a plan
50:12
and having a goal, as you talked about, right?
50:14
Which the goal is, I mean, we're all in advertising,
50:16
like trying to make more money for these people
50:18
really is like what we're trying to do is, you know,
50:21
having, having a vision of what, what's the
50:24
reasoning behind doing this. So I think is really
50:26
fascinating. I think we've, there's, and I think
50:29
it's also not necessarily around creative strategists.
50:33
I think creative strategists are in a hard place
50:36
because they're given an edict if they're within
50:39
a brand or, you know, they're given an edict
50:41
to like, go do this more efficiently with AI.
50:44
And the strategist is like, I actually want to
50:46
go slower. Yes. Right. Like, and, and so I think
50:50
there's, there's a, um, a challenge there as well.
50:54
So I think those of you that are listening to this
50:55
episode that are agency owners or brand owners,
50:58
like, I think there's, there is a really important
51:01
conversation to be had with your strategists
51:04
around what do you believe we are doing long-term
51:09
well and like in short-term well, and then, you
51:12
know, the inverse of that, what do you think we're
51:14
doing poorly? Like, are we trying to push on
51:16
efficiency too much? And I think there's also this,
51:20
this idea that if you do these things, like
51:21
you talked about deep context is a great example.
51:24
There's a, there, if you, if you do that
51:27
buzzword, then you're like ahead. Right. Or, you know,
51:31
it's like, if you, whatever it might be, I mean,
51:33
persona building is a huge one too. That's like,
51:35
if you do that, then you just unlock. But the
51:38
reality is like, I think sometimes I had a professor
51:42
in college that always said, there's two types
51:44
of people. There's simple problem complicators and
51:47
complicated problem simplifiers. And I think
51:50
that like, that's what it's, it's simple problem
51:53
complication in a lot of ways. In terms of like
51:56
trying to develop seven personas on a $10,000 a
51:59
month budget or whatever it is, you know? And
52:02
so, and you know, it's hard because you have these,
52:06
these messages that are all over the place of
52:08
like, you know, you look at somebody like Zach,
52:11
we did an episode talking about a lot of their
52:12
funnels and stuff. And like, you know, they had,
52:15
it was some, I mean, they're spending tons and
52:17
tons of money, but they had like 80 landing page
52:19
tests live and they had, you know, some 300
52:21
variants live. And it was about, it was about
52:25
volume. And then you kind of, you know,
52:28
these smaller brands look at this and say, well,
52:29
it's about volume. And it's, it's not though.
52:33
It's like about, it's about quality as it relates
52:36
to volume and like, and the, and what the inputs
52:40
are that brought you there. So anyway, I was just
52:42
trying to summarize all of the things that we
52:43
talked about briefly. I don't know if there's
52:47
anything else you guys want to mention, but
52:48
it's, it's an interesting topic. And I think
52:50
the greatest thing that we can all do is go and
52:52
have a larger conversation with, with our creative
52:54
strategists or with the people that work with us
52:57
and set in that, in the, in the creative realm and
52:59
say like, look, we want to make this more
53:00
efficient. We both have the same goal. We want to sell more
53:03
stuff and grow this baby. So like, what else do we
53:06
need to do to be able to do this? And what's your
53:09
opinion on this? Because I think there's, if you
53:13
don't, that, that widening gap between what the
53:16
creative strategist wants, which is to slow down
53:18
and what you want, which is efficiency as an owner
53:20
or an agency owner is going to become more
53:23
disparate. And it's not ultimately going to serve
53:24
the end consumer. Yeah. I think it's a leadership
53:27
conversation. I think that's what, for me, I was
53:29
going to say that even before you mentioned it,
53:31
but it's true. It's the leadership conversation,
53:33
because if you're in, if you are an agency owner,
53:38
like you want to, like, why is somebody going to
53:40
stay with you? It's not because you were more
53:42
efficient. It was because you got them performance,
53:45
right? If you're a brand owner, what do you want
53:49
your people to do? Do you want them to make more
53:51
ads or do you want them to make ads that are going
53:53
to win? Right. And so I think the problem is, is that
53:56
when you are focused on volume, then you are
54:00
building systems to do more of the same. It's easier to do
54:03
that. It's easier to do similar stuff. You've got
54:06
the people in place, just do more. You have the SOPs in
54:09
place, just do more of that thing. But sometimes
54:13
the best ads are going to take 10 X the time. And
54:16
you don't have, if you're not building in Slack to
54:21
have moments where somebody can take 10 X the time
54:24
and take the bet that it could even work, it
54:26
could even fail, but like, you've got to be able to do
54:29
that and allow them to do that. Like, but if you're
54:32
just focused on, did we get 20 ads out every single
54:35
week? Then, you know, the problem is, is that
54:38
you're going to say, well, we, we doing, we got
54:40
the 20 ads out, but now we're not, we're not, we're
54:42
not winning. It's like, yeah, because you're doing
54:45
20 of the same ads every single week because they
54:47
are, that's what their success in their role is.
54:50
And I think that oftentimes, like, did we ever
54:53
have like an efficiency problem? Like, I don't think
54:56
we had, I don't think oftentimes bandwidth was the
54:59
problem. I think we're saying that. I think people,
55:02
leaders are saying that, but I'm like, I don't
55:04
think that was the problem five years ago. I think
55:07
now you just want to stuff more clients into one
55:09
career of challenges. That's a problem. But like,
55:12
I don't think that the efficiency was the problem.
55:16
I think performance has always been the main issue.
55:19
And so I think like, if you can use AI to help you
55:23
with performance, amazing. But you also have to be
55:26
ready as a leader to realize that it's not always
55:31
about efficiencies. It is about ultimately performance
55:35
and you have to be okay. And building a space
55:39
where people can really take shots on goal that are out
55:44
there that are different. And that's going to look
55:46
different than how things are set up. Now, again,
55:50
it's all about breaking rules. Every brand that
55:54
stands out, they break rules. That's what great
55:57
advertising is all about. Right. And so it's
56:00
like, yes, do the things that work and like, like, not
56:03
trends, but like, if creator content works, like
56:05
do creator content, like don't not do the basics,
56:08
right, that is working in the current moment, but you
56:10
have to have these moonshots. And then, you know, I think
56:13
just like, as a leader, you've got to be able to
56:16
like, open up that capacity for your people. But I
56:21
don't think it's ever been an efficiency problem.
56:23
And I think leaders just want it to be. And they're
56:25
saying that, but I think that's just because
56:27
they're just looking after their margins. And it's
56:29
like, no, you got to break your margins, you know,
56:32
like, like, break your margins today so that you can
56:35
have like crazy performance later. Like, that's
56:38
how I'm thinking. I'm like, if I need to spend extra
56:40
thousands of dollars to make this video idea
56:42
work, great, because if it works, my client's
56:45
going to stay with me for like, years to come,
56:47
right? Like, that's worth the $2,000 if they're
56:50
going to continue to play my retainer later on.
56:52
Like, if something is like not working, oh, but I
56:55
saved my my margin. It's like, what? So you got
56:59
to be able to like, really think about performance.
57:03
That's the biggest thing. You know, good, good
57:05
wrap up. I mean, look, this thing, this episode is
57:08
this episode is packed of information. So we're
57:11
just gonna might even have to split this into two.
57:14
I mean, it's got a lot of stuff that I think is
57:16
really important to get into. And I think it is
57:18
a fairly relevant conversation and
57:21
identifies a lot of problems and hopefully can give,
57:24
you know, some some some ammunition to good
57:27
creatives among us to to say, like, hey, look what
57:30
they said here, right? Like, slow down, right?
57:32
Like, this is what's been said on this podcast,
57:34
because I think a lot of it is like, what
57:36
I did to make 3 million ads by, you know, a
57:40
week ago or whatever. Like, it's so much. So
57:42
do you remember the Michigan method, Brad? I do.
57:45
Oh, man, I know. I'm really old. The Michigan
57:50
method was when you had a bid, and you then put,
57:56
it was the only type of manual bidding. It
57:58
was like, and you would basically do a bid at
58:01
a dollar amount and you take the same ad
58:03
and then you do if the CPA was $30, you do,
58:06
you do $20 below and $20 above and the same ad
58:10
in each ad set. So it'd be like $31, $32, $33.
58:14
It was and and then one of them would get spend
58:17
and they'd vary like depending on what the bid was
58:19
that day, you were just trying to play the auction. So that still works. I think
58:23
there you go. Hey, if you guys want to start a
58:26
drop shipping company, let me know. That's that's
58:30
but thank you everybody for joining us.
58:32
Appreciate it. Thanks for being here. And as always,
58:35
please leave us a review. And if you have
58:36
questions, we'd love to hear from you. Andrew at
58:38
foxwelldigital.com.
58:44
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59:06
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59:08
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59:22
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