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Dov Baron — The Art of Belonging and Identity Addiction · The Innovation Show

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  And if you wanna show up and be innovative and be brilliant and be part
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  of the community, and you wanna wear a dress and a beard, why do I care?
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  I don't need you to be in khakis and a blue shirt.
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  Why do I care?
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  I need you to bring all of you and all of your brilliance and your genius and
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  your community to this environment.
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  Yes, okay.
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  Please, let's do that.
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  It's gotta be safe for you to come up with things that allow me to be me.
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  I may not have the greatest way of delivering it, but can you hear it anyway?
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  And so psychological safety is can I allow you to show up as you in all of
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  your forms, in whatever your form is?
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  Before we start, I wanna thank our sponsor, Kyndryl, who run and
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  reimagine the technology of the world's leading organizations.
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  You can find them and the Kyndryl Institute, where there's a plethora of
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  brilliant authors who've been on the show at K-Y-N-D-R-Y-L, kyndryl.com/institute.
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  When people feel they belong, they don't just show up, they show up fully, bringing
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  the parts of themselves that they would never allow to be seen in a place where
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  they're made to fit in and conform.
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  It is a pleasure to be here in Vancouver, in person- … with our guest today, and
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  we're gonna cover his book, this baby.
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  He's multiple time global guru, voted top keynote speaker on
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  leadership in the world, and multiple time bestselling author
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  it's a pleasure to be here with Dov Baron.
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  Welcome to the show.
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  Cheers, mate.
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  I
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  am- Great to see you, man
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  … I am so glad that you're in Vancouver.
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  That really, like, when you told me you were coming, I
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  was really excited to see you.
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  You too, man, and we're here also to do work together, so we've been-
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  Absolutely
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  looking forward to sharing the stage with you tomorrow.
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  That, that, that's gonna be very cool.
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  So I know you're not a drinker, but I thought I'd bring you a
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  little bit of an Irish gift to your
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  house.
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  Of course.
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  Thank you.
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  When
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  you have guests over.
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  Well, you know what?
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  At Christmas, I'm gonna have one of these with some coffee, for sure.
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  That one, 'cause a- a Bailey's and coffee is very nice.
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  I will- That's
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  a, that's a dessert, man.
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  Exactly.
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  It's a dessert.
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  Thank you.
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  That's very kind.
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  It's a pleasure, man.
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  , I thought, before we get stuck into this, people will be wondering,
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  who the hell is this Dov Baron guy?
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  Yeah.
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  And you do
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  give a- Who's the gi- Yeah … who's the guy with the
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  weird voice and the weird accent-
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  Exactly … and the
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  weird name
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  … living in Vancouver?
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  Right.
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  , Manchester guy as well- Yeah … which I found out from reading the book as well.
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  Found out a lot of personal stories, which is actually
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  part of the point of Belonging.
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  But maybe you'll give us a quick overview of the work you've done,
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  the evolution of that work as well.
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  Sure.
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  , I started out, as you said, I was born in northern England.
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  In the late '50s, , crime, poverty, violence, abuse, all kinds of nasty
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  things were going on all the time.
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  Never fit in anywhere.
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  Always felt like the odd duck, and particularly when I was a kid, because
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  I was, what I now would understand as I was more spiritually inclined.
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  And that didn't go down particularly well with my family, they didn't understand
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  it, and because they didn't understand it, my mom shipped me off to the rabbis.
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  I think she thought my head was gonna start spinning- Yeah … and I was
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  gonna start vomiting green stuff.
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  And I started studying Kabbalah as a kid, and then by the time I was
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  10, my stepfather handed me a book on Prana Yoga, and I taught myself
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  Prana Yoga, which is breath yoga.
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  What age?
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  10.
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  Wow.
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  Right?
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  And it just appealed.
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  And that just sort of pulled me into the spiritual understanding, not the
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  spiritual woo woo, but the understanding.
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  I became fascinated by that.
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  I, left school very young, when I was 13, and, did a four-year
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  apprenticeship in 10 months.
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  Qualified and decided… And as I said, desperate to fit in.
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  Met a girl who adored me.
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  Never had that.
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  So I was 15 years old.
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  She's like, "Oh, you're the best thing since sliced bread. You look like
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  David Cassidy." For those of you who don't know David Cassidy, Google him.
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  He was '70s hot.
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  And eight months later, I was 16 years old and married.. And trying to fit in
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  again into that family and into that
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  You'll hear more about that when we, when I, in our presentation tomorrow.
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  But never fit in there.
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  And at 21, my l- you see, I realized that I desperately wanted to belong, but I
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  married to fit in, and I wanted to fit in with that family, and I never did.
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  It just never worked.
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  So at 21, I got divorced, and I began to travel the world.
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  So I traveled, … I lived in East Coast Canada for a year.
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  I was in Asia and Indonesia.
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  I lived in Australia for many years before I came here.
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  Each, all that time traveling and studying and running businesses.
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  I ran businesses on three continents and studied, Kabbalah, Vedanta, Hindu
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  philosophy, Buddhism, the Tao, Gnostic and Coptic Christianity, all those
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  things got kind of sick of the spiritual.
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  People could tell me what way my chakra was spinning, but they couldn't get
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  their shit together to hold down a job or run a business or hold a relationship.
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  So I said, "All right, I have to understand psychology." I
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  became a Jungian therapist.
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  That took me into the psychology.
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  I can see that, yeah.
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  Right.
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  So that took me into the psychology piece, and then I got really sick of people
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  who would wanna sit around and tell me their problems, but not do anything.
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  That was frustrating.
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  So now I had a better understanding of the psychology,
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  but people wouldn't do anything.
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  Then I met this wonderful guy, Tim, who was a mil- multimillionaire back
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  when that actually meant something, and he started educating me about money
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  and about, about the mindset of money and what that was and, and business.
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  And he introduced me to a lot of people, but I met a lot of people
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  who were… my words, not theirs, they had a hole in their soul.
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  Something was missing, and they didn't know how to express it,
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  but it was there, you know?
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  And so it was '83, I was in a bookstore in Melbourne, and… secondhand bookstore,
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  reached for a book and another book fell down and hit me on the head, and that
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  book was Yuval Everett III's Quantum Theory of Multidimensional Reality.
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  Right?
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  Now-
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  What age were you then?
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  I'm then 20, early 20s.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  22, 23, 24, somewhere around there.
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  And I opened this book, and on one side of it, I couldn't understand anything
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  'cause it was math, and I, you know, math, no, no, that's definitely not my thing.
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  But on the other side, the concepts really clicked with me, and that pulled
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  me into the world of quantum physics.
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  At the same time that was when I began bod- biohacking and studying my own
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  body and what would work and what would, would not work, and that's why,
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  you know, I look very young 'cause I'm only 123, but you'd never know it.
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  I said- You look great, man.
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  Thanks.
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  Not bad for an old fart.
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  So I started studying biohacking along with the quantum physics and
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  very early days of neuroscience.
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  I put all that together and studied my thesis around quan- personal
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  emotional quantum resonance fields.
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  That led into the emotional source code work, which is what I do now-
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  Mm-hmm … for companies, for large org- organizations, finding out
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  what is the, what is the emotional source code of this organization?
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  What drives it?
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  Oftentimes, that's lost as, particularly as companies transition in ownership.
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  What was driving them originally gets lost.
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  Simple question, if- Do you think Apple is the same company today if,
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  if Steve Jobs would've stayed alive, if he was still running it, would
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  it be the same company it is today?
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  It can't be.
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  Absolutely not.
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  Mm. Now, I'm not saying Apple's a failure, but it lost that core.
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  And if Tim Cook goes away as one generation from that,
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  it's gonna go even worse.
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  So they lose that core, the emotional source code.
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  So I do the emotional source code for these organizations.
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  I've written them on nations.
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  I wrote one on America, I wrote one on England, I wrote one on France,
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  but I also do them on individuals.
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  I did one on Vladimir Putin, not that he asked.
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  In
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  there.
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  It's in the book.
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  It's in the book, yeah.
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  He never asked me to, but I did.
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  I mean, I did it on Trump in 2015 and said why he would win.
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  And I said, "I'm not necessarily cheering for that.
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  I'm just telling you why it's gonna happen." And I've done one on Elon
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  Musk as well, and it's talking about why, why him and Trump became friends.
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  It's understanding what drives people.
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  It's not just psychology.
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  It's underneath the psychology.
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  It's the part of our psychology we have no conscious memory of choosing, but it's
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  how you reacted to your first experiences of shame, of pride, of love, of whatever
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  those basic instincts were, that forms us.
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  And so from that, I've gone on to speak around the world, guide
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  leaders in all kinds of areas, including political leaders and,
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  and organizations and athletes, entertainers, and all the other things.
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  I mean, sometimes I get to work quite closely with some high-level athletes-
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  Yeah, yeah.
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  Well- … like
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  yourself
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  I tell you, man, I- if there's one thing I always say to my kids, I was
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  pretty good mentally, and it helped me get there, but the same drive
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  that got me there actually under- did me in a way because I- Absolutely
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  … what the heck happened there?
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  Because-
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  Well, that's identity
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  … is it?
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  That's the exact thing.
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  That's what I'm talking about.
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  So when you do … So in the emotional source code, there's five
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  levels, as you know from the book.
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  So that base level is your emotional source code.
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  That's your milieu.
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  It's the environment you grow up in.
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  It's, it's what you're marinating in.
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  The level above that is the emotional meaning architecture.
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  You build an emotional meaning architecture about that place,
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  which says, "How do I survive?" You're checking out all the time.
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  You're, you're trying to work out how to survive in this environment.
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  Because let's face it, humans are pretty shitty infants.
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  I mean, a giraffe falls out with its mother and falls on the
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  floor, and then mom takes off.
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  Same with an elephant.
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  Human beings, we are stuck with our parent often till we're 32
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  living in their basement, right?
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  So we're very dependent.
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  And so you're looking at, how do I survive in this environment?
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  And out of that, you create a meaning.
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  This, if, if dad looks like that, it means this.
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  If mom looks like that, it means this.
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  If this is happening, this, it… So we build all this meaning.
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  From now, with the emotional source code and the architecture of meaning,
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  you start to establish an identity.
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  If this is how you survive, then this is who I am.
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  If this is who I am, then that's my identity, then these
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  must be my beliefs and values.
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  And if these are my beliefs and values, of course this is my behavior.
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  And this is why most behavioral change fails- Mm … because it's
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  not going to that identity level.
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  But the problem is, as we'll talk about again tomorrow, identity is addiction.
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  We neurochemically get addicted to it.
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  So I'm the athlete, I'm the superstar, I'm the, you know, everything's
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  about winning the game, and then suddenly the game's not there.
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  And this is why some of the athletes I've worked with who are you know, they've
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  been Olympians and stuff, and they're such dark, deep depression- Mm … because
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  it's like, it's a massive identity crisis.
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  I interviewed recently somebody who was a professional she was a gymnast for Canada
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  and then became a professional ballerina.
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  She transitioned out of one into the other fairly naturally.
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  But when the ballerina ended because of a knee injury, who am I?
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  Yeah.
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  You, you're, you're… She's on, she was on a second retirement, 23 years old,
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  in a massive identity crisis that most people don't go through till they're 50
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  or 60 And when you're faced with that identity loss, it feels like the worst
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  thing in your life, but it's the best.
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  Yeah.
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  It just doesn't feel like that at the time.
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  And I know, 'cause I've been through them too.
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  Yeah.
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  So w- like, there was so much in the book.
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  There's a, a lovely moment, and I use the metaphor of the
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  transformation of the butterfly, the caterpillar to the butterfly.
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  But you mention the stage that I didn't know of until this,
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  where the head falls off.
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  Yeah.
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  Isn't that great?
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  At the very end, the head falls off.
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  But that, that, as you say, is the ego-
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  Yeah
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  … disappearance.
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  Yeah.
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  The dissolution of ego.
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  Which is, so, so let's link some of this to business and business
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  culture and innovation as well.
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  But the, say that athlete, like I, I, like you, saw my, one of my greatest
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  pieces of luck at, in my r- rugby career, professional sports career, was
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  I was injured quite a lot at the end.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  So I actually could see the light at the end of the tunnel, and actually saw it as
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  a light and went, "Okay, I need to prepare for that." But most keep going and going
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  and going until the very end, until they have to change, until that it's forced.
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  And by then they're struggling.
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  They're struggling, like they're in dark depression.
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  But I, I have a saying where it's, I don't know, it's not mine.
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  I picked it up somewhere.
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  I've internalized it.
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  It's hard to read the label from inside the jar.
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  Yeah.
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  And sometimes the jar needs to smash.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  And that jar smashed for you when you fell from climbing.
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  I, I didn't realize this about you.
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  You were like a total daredevil, like climbing a cliff,
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  like kinda just to amaze.
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  Imagine this, like going, "Let's climb that cliff." No harness, free-
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  Free climbing … free climbing.
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  And uh, didn't finish well.
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  Let's share this story.
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  Mountain climbing for the mentally mentally challenged.
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  Yeah.
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  I I- Up until 1990, which is that, the year it took place, I was … I think I
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  was the most successful I'd ever been.
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  As I s- often say, I, I knew I was successful because
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  I had a big American car.
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  And the reason that that meant so much is because being a really poor kid in
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  Salford, I would sit on the edge of Berry New Road and watch the cars come
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  down from Whitefield, which was where wealth was, into the city, and they
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  would have to drive past this shitty part of the ghetto that I lived in.
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  And my mate and I, Kieran Gilmartin, an Irish kid, we would sit on the edge
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  there and we would watch these cars.
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  And the cars we watched were Rolls-Royces, they were Jags, and they
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  were occasionally the big American car.
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  And we knew the people who had that, they'd made it.
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  Yeah.
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  And so somewhere in my psyche, I took that in, and so I ended
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  I, I bought a big LTD, which is, doesn't do miles to the gal-
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  gallon, it did gallons to the mile.
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  Right?
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  It was just ridiculous.
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  In this economy- Yeah … with gas, that would be crazy.
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  And so I was, you know, I was speaking all over the world, there was big lineups for
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  me to… You know, it was, it was great.
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  I was in magazines.
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  But I was also an adrenaline junkie.
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  I did all kinds of stupid stuff all the time, including with my
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  mates, you know, not publicly.
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  Thank God there was no social media back in those days.
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  But, you know, hanging onto a roof rack at 40 and 50 and 60 miles an
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  hour while my mate's driving, right?
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  Could easily have died, but I was an adrenaline junkie.
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  So I was free climbing.
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  That was the thing I did.
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  And on this particular day in June 1990, I was free climbing up by Whistler
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  here in British Columbia, or near where the, where the 2010 Olympics were.
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  And at about 120 feet, I reached for a rock.
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  That rock dislodged a bigger rock that hit me in the face and sent me hurtling
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  down at maximum velocity onto the rocks below, where I got smashed to pieces.
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  In fact, my friend thought I was dead.
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  Mm. And you know, we can go into the gory details.
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  No need for that.
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  But I died five times by the time I was at the second hospital.
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  First hospital couldn't treat me.
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  It was too big.
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  At the second hospital and I died and I felt like it was over.
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  It was interesting, my daughter was here visiting from the UK.
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  My daughter was, I think, 13
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  or 14
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  at the time.
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  Oof.
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  And,
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  What did she see?
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  Yes, she saw.
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  Oh, God.
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  And she was at the hospital part of the time, and she said she
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  was sitting with me and she was crying and she was looking at me.
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  I was out.
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  And she said all of a sudden… Now, here's, here's some woo-woo shit, right?
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  Mm-hmm.
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  This is, just a warning, this is woo-woo.
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  Yeah.
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  She saw what she felt was like smoke standing right from me.
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  And she goes, "And it was like a movie," 'cause all, everything,
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  this busy hospital went quiet.
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  And she knew I was leaving.
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  Mm.
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  And she screamed, "No, Dad." And, and I, the smoke came back into me and I just
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  opened my eyes and I said, "Hello, love."
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  And I was back again.
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  So that was just one example of that- Mm … craziness.
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  But for nine months after that, 10 reconstructive surgeries, not all in
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  that period, but nine months after that, I walked around and people would
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  say, "How are you doing?" Identity.
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  And I would say, "I'm great. I'm coming back." With my jaw wired
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  closed, I could barely speak.
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  It was more like, "I'm great. I'm coming back." Because I was a ghetto kid.
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  I'd been a boxer, I'd been a martial artist, I'd ran businesses.
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  You know, you can't keep me down.
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  I was the get knocked down seven, get up eight times.
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  That was who I thought I was.
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  So that was the identity I was hooked into.
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  And then one night, my mates who take me up on a Saturday night, every now and
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  then they'd take me out for a night out.
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  I had no money.
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  I was broke and I was really struggling from doing very well.
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  So, so the fall, in a way, broke everything.
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  It broke the identity.
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  It smashed your revenue sources too.
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  Absolutely.
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  You couldn't do stage work.
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  Couldn't do anything.
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  Couldn't do consult-
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  thing couldn't do anything, couldn't speak
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  And you had, you had spent all your mo- your seed corn.
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  Spent everything.
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  Everything was gone, right?
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  In that nine-month period, it was all gone.
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  And so, one of the nights out we had with the lads, and I had been
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  out on these Saturday nights, and I'd always faked having a good time.
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  And I knew I was darkly depressed, but I was never gonna let anybody know.
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  Any
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  drinking?
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  Yeah, but maybe- Not as much, no … yeah, n- not too much, you know?
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  Not, not masking by drinking.
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  Not masking by drinking.
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  I might have used a couple of other substances.
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  Yeah But I d- you know, I was just like-
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  Numb
• 17:09
  … yeah, I was trying to numb myself in all kinds of ways, but I
• 17:13
  was in a lot of emotional pain, more than physical, for sure.
• 17:17
  And on one particular night, we had a Saturday night out, and I'm out with
• 17:20
  the lads, and I actually laughed.
• 17:22
  And I, and I remember coming, walking down my back path after my buddy has dropped
• 17:28
  me out, thinking, "Maybe I am coming back.
• 17:30
  I actually had a good time tonight." I'm feeling this glimmer
• 17:33
  of hope, like, "Ah, yeah, maybe."
• 17:36
  And as I open the kitchen door, the light from outside
• 17:38
  went across the kitchen floor.
• 17:40
  And across the floor was kitty litter and empty cans and meat packaging and coffee
• 17:47
  grinds, and it stunk, and it was gross, and I was… I went from that moment of
• 17:52
  hope to blind rage like I'd never known it, like I'd never experienced in my life.
• 17:57
  W- when people say, "I saw red," I saw black.
• 17:59
  I was just, you know, infuriated, and I wanted to kill the culprit.
• 18:03
  I wanted to kill the, you know, whoever'd done this.
• 18:07
  And I marched into the living room, and there on the couch is
• 18:11
  the culprit, and I lift my hand to strike, but I'm not a violent person.
• 18:15
  I may have learned those things, but I'm not a violent
• 18:17
  person, and I stopped myself.
• 18:19
  And as I stopped myself, I scooped the offender up into my arms
• 18:23
  and pulled my cat to my chest, who was cold and dead and stiff.
• 18:30
  He'd had a distemper attack, and that's why he'd freaked out in the kitchen.
• 18:34
  And I fell to my knees, and I began to bawl.
• 18:37
  And it must have been within a minute or two when I realized-
• 18:42
  I'm not crying because he's dead.
• 18:44
  I'm crying because I'm dead.
• 18:45
  Mm.
• 18:46
  Who I was is dead and I'm feeling dead inside.
• 18:50
  And I spent hours on the floor weeping and came to this conclusion
• 18:54
  that I had three choices.
• 18:56
  Keep doing this, I'm great, I'm coming back, which was clearly not working.
• 19:01
  The second choice was the seductive one, which is to be the victim.
• 19:06
  To be the on-the-waterfront guy.
• 19:09
  I could've been a champion, you know?
• 19:11
  It would be a great victim story.
• 19:12
  I could live with it for the rest of my life.
• 19:14
  I could, you know, get it to pay off.
• 19:16
  It was so seductive, but I knew that that wasn't my path.
• 19:19
  And the third path was to really find out why I was here, what was my purpose.
• 19:23
  Now remember, I've been on the path since I'm a kid.
• 19:27
  I've been in therapy, I've done all the workshops, I've done all the trainings.
• 19:31
  I'm more, quote, evolved than almost anybody I've ever met.
• 19:36
  But I still knew something was missing and that was why it was
• 19:39
  hard, because I had to even get over the ego of I'm already there.
• 19:43
  And that's what I did.
• 19:44
  I spent nine months working on that.
• 19:47
  And it was funny because during that time, my adrenaline junkie buddy, the
• 19:52
  guy I used to do crazy shit with, came over one day and he goes, "How you doing?
• 19:55
  When are you gonna get back?" And I go-- I said to him, "I'm not doing
• 19:58
  it." And he goes, "What do you mean?"
• 19:59
  I said, "I'm done." "What do you mean?" "I'm, I'm not
• 20:03
  gonna speak on stages anymore.
• 20:04
  I'm not gonna work with people.
• 20:05
  I'm not doing any of that anymore." And he goes, "Yeah you will.
• 20:07
  You'll be back." And I'm like, "No." And about a year after, he
• 20:12
  saw me on stage and he's in my audience and he's waiting for me.
• 20:16
  You know, he's waiting, right?
• 20:17
  And he goes, so he goes, "I thought you weren't gonna do this." And I go,
• 20:19
  "I'm not." He goes, "I just saw you on stage and I just saw you say that
• 20:23
  you could work with people if they wanted to work with you." And I said,
• 20:26
  "I'm not." And he goes, "So you were lying?" I go, "No." And he goes, "What
• 20:31
  are you talking about?" I said, "I'm not doing it the way I was doing it.
• 20:35
  It's not coming from the same place." Mm. Mm. It was-- What I had to find
• 20:39
  in that nine months is who am I?
• 20:41
  What is this really about?
• 20:43
  And getting over this I'm there, this-- And this is, you know,
• 20:47
  the thing we deal with with the people who are very successful.
• 20:50
  There's such an identity in, in holding onto I'm the guy or the gal.
• 20:56
  I'm the person who made it and if I admit that I'm going through something
• 20:59
  internally, then I'm not the guy and that is the most difficult thing in the world.
• 21:04
  Yeah.
• 21:05
  The, the-
• 21:08
  The time you fell and you died, essentially, do you ever think, obviously,
• 21:14
  from the quantum field work, that there's a version of you that didn't make it,
• 21:19
  there's a version of you that did but has been struggling s- ever since?
• 21:23
  And do those moments change how you live the rest of your life?
• 21:28
  Regardless of the, the cat incident.
• 21:31
  Mm-hmm.
• 21:31
  And the c- for, for me, those, it's like when you hear about somebody finally
• 21:36
  says, "I'm gonna get divorced," and they get divorced over you leaving a coffee
• 21:40
  mug over the cup and you're going, "What?
• 21:42
  What?
• 21:42
  What?
• 21:42
  This… " And then the, the person will go, "She, she divorced
• 21:45
  me over a coffee mug." Sure.
• 21:46
  You know what?
• 21:46
  It's not about the mug.
• 21:47
  No.
• 21:48
  It's, it's channeled into that thing.
• 21:50
  Of course.
• 21:50
  But the, the, the quantum element of that, I, I truly believe in that,
• 21:56
  that there's, there's… You, you make decisions, you make decisions
• 22:00
  with your gut, at your resonance.
• 22:02
  You make decisions and you kind of go, this… You know when something's wrong.
• 22:07
  Mm-hmm.
• 22:07
  If, if you're quiet enough, you feel it.
• 22:09
  Of course.
• 22:10
  You can tune into it and go, "Yeah, I'm not gonna do that." And one of the things
• 22:13
  I've been trying to do, a- again, this s- self-evolution that's never finished-
• 22:18
  No … is is, is not even think it.
• 22:21
  So when… You know when you, you go, "Oh, that person's a so-and-so,"
• 22:25
  name, whatever, insert word here.
• 22:28
  And I'm, I'm actually going, I'd love to go to a level where I
• 22:30
  don't even think it, so there's not even that negative energy wasted.
• 22:34
  Mm-hmm.
• 22:35
  'Cause, 'cause for me, one of the things that comes from this book is you have so
• 22:40
  much creative potential, that's energy, life force, chi, whatever you wanna
• 22:45
  call it, and it's wasted by masking or fitting in rather than belonging.
• 22:50
  Mm-hmm.
• 22:51
  And actually, it's the, it's, it's the core message of the book.
• 22:54
  Mm-hmm.
• 22:54
  And then the, the flip of that is you can't, as a leader, 'cause Dov mostly
• 22:59
  works with leaders, is you can't lead a transition or transformation or a
• 23:03
  reinvention of an organization without first dealing with yourself first.
• 23:07
  That's absolutely true.
• 23:08
  You have to deal with yourself first.
• 23:10
  But to come back to the first part of your question, which is about
• 23:13
  this parallel universes, again- Mm … you ever at the thirds work.
• 23:19
  I have done something Since that fall, that really helped me.
• 23:26
  So, you know, most people have heard of quote inner child work and, you know,
• 23:31
  getting connected to the part of you that was the kid and what that was like.
• 23:35
  And we don't have to go too much into that, but from a quantum point
• 23:40
  of view, something I've always done and I think has really helped me
• 23:43
  is that I have a guy called Dave.
• 23:51
  Dave is me.
• 23:53
  He lives, still lives in Eccles, which is part of Manchester.
• 23:58
  He still lives there.
• 24:00
  He never left.
• 24:01
  When I left when I was 21, he never left.
• 24:03
  Dave is overweight balding drinks too much.
• 24:07
  I know-
• 24:08
  City or United fan?
• 24:09
  He's a Man City fan.
• 24:11
  He's a Man City fan.
• 24:12
  Uh, Before-
• 24:12
  Tattoos?
• 24:14
  No, no tattoos.
• 24:15
  Thought you were gonna each time.
• 24:16
  But it's good.
• 24:16
  But he's a Man City fan.
• 24:17
  And he's on his third marriage third miserable marriage.
• 24:21
  He drinks too much, and he only does cocaine on the weekends, which is Thursday
• 24:25
  to Sunday Um, he's a miserable guy.
• 24:29
  He's very unhappy.
• 24:31
  Um, There's nothing about him that's, that's, that's joyous, and
• 24:37
  it's because he abandoned himself.
• 24:40
  And I check in with him regularly.
• 24:43
  When I'm faced with a decision or a way of being, I check in with Dave.
• 24:48
  "What would you do, Dave?" 'Cause I know that's not what to do.
• 24:51
  Right.
• 24:52
  And I've always kept this parallel Dave w- with me, right?
• 24:56
  And I, and I always like, "Oh, I'll just check with Dave 'cause I'm feeling like
• 24:59
  this." And I'm like, "Is that me, or is that, is that the part of me that wants
• 25:02
  to regress, wants to fall back into what's safe, what I, what I'm familiar
• 25:07
  with from my emotional resonance field?
• 25:09
  No, hold on a second.
• 25:10
  Let me go back there."
• 25:12
  So it's like, no, that's not for me.
• 25:14
  So I think there… I, I… From my r- reality, it's not the truth, the way
• 25:18
  I see the world, is that, yes, there is a, there is a Dov who, who fell
• 25:24
  and who is the guy who was he before I fell, which is he's actually taken
• 25:29
  on the victim story, used it as a leverage piece, but he's still missing.
• 25:36
  He's still got that hole in his soul that I don't have anymore.
• 25:40
  He's still looking for something to fix him, as opposed to taking full ownership.
• 25:46
  So yeah, I think that that's absolutely what it is.
• 25:50
  And I think there's still a you that instead of seeing that light at the end
• 25:53
  of the tunnel, who went, "I'm not go- I'm not looking at the light, and I'm
• 25:56
  just gonna play until I'm destroyed."
• 25:59
  Mm. Mm. Which is what o- many athletes do, as you said.
• 26:01
  Yeah.
• 26:01
  Right?
• 26:02
  And then they're faced with it.
• 26:03
  You know, one of the, the confrontations I, I see all the time is that I remember
• 26:09
  working with a guy years and years ago.
• 26:11
  Worked with him briefly, and then I s- he- he… I actually fired him
• 26:15
  'cause he wasn't doing the work.
• 26:17
  And… But I don't, I don't dislike him, and I haven't… I didn't
• 26:21
  have any disrespect for him.
• 26:22
  It was like, "Okay, you're not gonna do it. It's okay. We just… We
• 26:24
  can't work together." But I stayed in touch, as I do with all my clients.
• 26:28
  And a couple of years later, I heard that he had had a massive heart attack.
• 26:32
  So I went to see him in hospital.
• 26:33
  Triple bypass, totally un s- un… Nobody expected it.
• 26:37
  I'm in the hospital with him, and he goes, "You were right." And I go, "Well,
• 26:41
  I don't need to be right, but okay, tell me why." He goes, "I realize now that
• 26:44
  I'm laid here, I had my chest wide open.
• 26:47
  I've missed the anniversaries.
• 26:49
  I've missed the, the, the birthday parties.
• 26:51
  I've missed the things that really matter." He goes,
• 26:54
  "I've been working too hard.
• 26:55
  I've gotta stop.
• 26:56
  I'm gonna be more present with my family.
• 26:58
  You know, I'm gonna be a better human being." I was like, "That is great.
• 27:02
  I'm s- I'm really glad to hear it." He goes, "Okay, yeah." So, you know, I
• 27:06
  visited him in the hospital a couple of times, and then I didn't see him again.
• 27:09
  And then it was probably, I don't know, maybe nine months to 12 months
• 27:14
  later, I bumped into him again, and I said, "How you doing?" And I'm taking
• 27:19
  him up believing in what he told me.
• 27:20
  And he goes, "Well, I'm working on this project, and I've got this project going
• 27:23
  on, and I've got these, and we, you know, we've just hired this, and we've
• 27:25
  just bought this, built this new unit."
• 27:27
  And I go, "I thought you were slowing down." He goes, "Oh, no, no, no, no." I
• 27:30
  said, "But remember what you told me?" He goes, "No, no, no, I just realized
• 27:33
  this is who I am." Identity addiction, mainline, that's what he's doing.
• 27:38
  So even when it comes, it's not enough for people to pay attention.
• 27:43
  It's not enough because it- what changes people, and people are not gonna like
• 27:47
  hearing this, what changes people is pain.
• 27:51
  When the pain gets big enough, you will do something about it.
• 27:54
  For an athlete, that's often physical pain.
• 27:57
  But for other people, it can be another kind, and it can be that hole in the soul,
• 28:02
  and if you don't address it, you will just manifest another p- form of pain to bring
• 28:07
  you to that place again and go, "Stop."
• 28:11
  The marriage is over.
• 28:12
  Your wife left you over a cup of coffee.
• 28:14
  Not really.
• 28:15
  Your kids don't talk to you.
• 28:17
  W- you know, there's all these things going on.
• 28:19
  There's nobody around you you can trust.
• 28:21
  You've built a, you've built an organization where it's
• 28:24
  an echo change y- chamber.
• 28:25
  You've filled your, your entire environment with sycophants who are
• 28:28
  telling you how great you are, but behind your back think you're an asshole.
• 28:33
  Well, is that success?
• 28:35
  Not what I call it, but you might call it that.
• 28:38
  We'll come back to that 'cause you talk in the book about cognitive diversity.
• 28:41
  The whole chapter is d- d- devoted to that.
• 28:43
  But a couple of things because I'm gonna go right back to the time
• 28:48
  the, the girl was infatuated by you-
• 28:51
  Mm-hmm
• 28:52
  uh, and you're a kid.
• 28:54
  Mm-hmm.
• 28:54
  But what was interesting then, from 10 you actually weren't performing.
• 29:00
  You, you weren't trying to fit into a, a mould of the way
• 29:05
  society s- saw someone like you.
• 29:07
  You actually formed your own path.
• 29:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 29:09
  And when you mentioned that about how attractive she found
• 29:12
  you, I, I'm, I, I really…
• 29:15
  I, I'm so passionate about this idea that when you actually row your own canoe,
• 29:21
  paddle your own canoe, and go your own direction, and are dedicated to that
• 29:25
  and build something that's different, firstly, you get what you got where,
• 29:30
  where people think you're a weirdo.
• 29:32
  Like- But- And, and actually, Gav, it's one of the most fascinating
• 29:37
  things I think about this work, is that that's what most people are most
• 29:41
  fearful about, is what will they, the, the s- the, they, what will they say?
• 29:46
  What will society say?
• 29:47
  What will they think?
• 29:48
  And you're having people who aren't even in your life writing the script for
• 29:52
  your life, and you, you're not doing it.
• 29:54
  And then you're just kind of filling in the gaps to actually
• 29:57
  perform like that, like the car.
• 29:59
  Mm-hmm.
• 29:59
  " Now they'll say I'm great.
• 30:01
  Look at me with my new car."
• 30:02
  But to you, it's just an ever-ending hole.
• 30:04
  You're not actually- Exactly … filling the, the true gap, and
• 30:07
  that's what I think about this.
• 30:09
  It's clear, as I said, you can see the Jungian shadow work, the inner
• 30:12
  child work, all the quantum work.
• 30:14
  Like, the… What's beautiful about the, the coming together
• 30:18
  of your work is that they're like lenses that have compounded- Mm-hmm
• 30:22
  and give you a unique view on the world where most experts are like,
• 30:26
  they're expert from their field- Yeah … but they're only seeing
• 30:28
  like one part of the chessboard.
• 30:30
  Yeah.
• 30:30
  While the more view you have, the more cognitive diversity you have as
• 30:34
  a person, and then the more you allow that in an organization, the more
• 30:38
  innovative an organization can be.
• 30:40
  But I want to come back to that, that thing about really removing the mask.
• 30:45
  Mm-hmm.
• 30:45
  And first, obviously the discomfort there.
• 30:49
  Then there's the personal discomfort.
• 30:51
  Then there's the people who you think will support you who don't.
• 30:54
  Mm-hmm.
• 30:55
  And the pain of that, because when you go through that, like I do this
• 30:59
  work as well, I know there's lots of people who I would have expected to
• 31:02
  be very supportive are kind of going,
• 31:04
  " What's that guy do?"
• 31:05
  Right.
• 31:05
  Like what, you know… My kids even say, "What do I do?" And I just
• 31:08
  go, I went to explain the other day, and my older son, he goes,
• 31:10
  "No." He said, "Just don't say it.
• 31:12
  It's actually cooler by not saying what it is." So I say, "I don't know what my
• 31:16
  dad does, and people think you're a drug dealer." He goes, "It's cooler that way."
• 31:20
  So I just let him have his fun.
• 31:21
  Sure.
• 31:22
  But there's a lot in there.
• 31:23
  There's, there's the personal decision to go, mask off, the pain
• 31:28
  of that, and, and actually the abandonment of that path early.
• 31:33
  A lot of people will start that.
• 31:35
  I'm sure you've had lots of these people.
• 31:36
  I, I, I… You probably heard the term they're ask holes.
• 31:39
  They're always asking questions, but they- Yeah, ask
• 31:41
  hole.
• 31:41
  Yeah
• 31:42
  … do nothing with the information.
• 31:43
  Yeah.
• 31:43
  Don't cast pearls before swine, and they don't do anything with it, and
• 31:47
  then you get frustrated, and you're gonna go, "Well, I can't do anything
• 31:49
  if you're not gonna do anything with it." So they abandon the path, but then
• 31:52
  there's the actual other side where people who aren't supportive who they
• 31:57
  think they will be, they abandon them.
• 32:00
  Yeah.
• 32:00
  I think it's a really important thing to understand.
• 32:02
  My language, it's not, it's not my preferential language.
• 32:05
  The, the word we would, we'll, we'll use is enlightenment, but
• 32:09
  you can call it transformation.
• 32:10
  You can call it whatever you want.
• 32:12
  Genuine enlightenment, genuine transformation is a destructive process
• 32:19
  You know, we think it's gonna be all the angels and the light and all
• 32:21
  the rest of it, and that everybody's gonna stand around and cheer for you.
• 32:24
  No, it's a destructive process.
• 32:26
  We all want to be the phoenix who rises from the fire, but we don't want
• 32:31
  the fire, 'cause the fire burns shit down, and that's what's gonna happen.
• 32:37
  Your reality is going to burn down, but you will rise stronger and better
• 32:41
  than you've ever been in your life.
• 32:42
  But we don't wanna change that because we are tribal, and we
• 32:46
  wanna keep our tribe behind us.
• 32:48
  And so even if it's a tribe where I don't really get to be all of me, you accept
• 32:55
  bits of me, so I'll, I'll, I'll take that.
• 32:58
  And so, yeah, it's incredibly difficult because… Well, I- here's an example.
• 33:04
  I mean, you've traveled, you've been around the world, you've done
• 33:06
  different things, and you know this.
• 33:08
  Once you step out of your village, there's a whole different world that the
• 33:12
  people in your village can't understand.
• 33:14
  And I can remember being a kid , meaning 18, 19 years old, sitting in the pub in
• 33:23
  Mutton Green with my mates at a particular table where we all sat, and we'd all sit
• 33:29
  around bitching, moaning, complaining about Manchester, and about the shitty
• 33:34
  weather and the shitty opportunities, and complain all the time, and I would
• 33:38
  say, "Yeah, I'm getting out of here."
• 33:40
  And they go, "Yeah, me too. I'm gonna move to Spain," they'd say,
• 33:42
  you know, 'cause that's where everybody wants to move in England.
• 33:45
  "I'm gonna move to where-" And I'm like, "No, I'm getting out of here.
• 33:48
  Really." And they're like, "Sure." And then at 21, I show up and I go, "I'm
• 33:53
  getting out of here." And they go, "What do you mean you're getting out of here?"
• 33:56
  I go, "In November, I'm m- moving." They go, "Where you… What do you mean?" I
• 33:58
  said, "I'm gonna go to Canada." "Where?" "New Brunswick." "Do you know anybody
• 34:03
  there?" "No, I got a job, though.
• 34:05
  I got myself a job." And they're like, "You can't leave here."
• 34:09
  "Why?" "Well, there's Man City.
• 34:11
  There's Boddingtons bitter.
• 34:13
  There's, there's all your…
• 34:14
  us.
• 34:14
  There's your mates.
• 34:15
  There's all your family.
• 34:17
  What are you gonna do?" And I'm like, "I'm gonna have a
• 34:20
  different life." Unbelievable.
• 34:23
  They'd all been saying they wanted it, but they don't actually want to take the step.
• 34:27
  Saying I want it is not the same as actually wanting it.
• 34:31
  And so I left.
• 34:32
  And it was interesting, 'cause it was four years before I ever went back.
• 34:36
  So I, al- by then, had already lived in Western Eastern Canada for a year.
• 34:40
  I'd been to Asia, I'd been to Indonesia, I'd traveled around,
• 34:43
  I'd done all kinds of crazy things, and I'd started another business.
• 34:46
  And I went back.
• 34:47
  And I went… I decided I'm gonna go to the Belmont Pub.
• 34:51
  So I went to the Belmont Pub, and I- all the same lads
• 34:54
  are there.
• 34:54
  No way.
• 34:54
  Same- They're all there.
• 34:54
  And- Just a bit balder, a bit, bi- bigger
• 34:55
  bellies.
• 34:55
  Yeah.
• 34:55
  They're
• 34:58
  all a little more pregnant, you're absolutely right.
• 35:00
  A- and, and I walk in and they go, "Dov," you know, and they recognize me.
• 35:04
  And, and they're like, "What are you up to?" And I'm telling
• 35:06
  them and they're like in awe.
• 35:09
  And they go, and one of the lads leans into me and he goes,
• 35:12
  "Your shirts were always whiter And I go, "What does that mean?
• 35:18
  I don't understand." He goes, "There was something about you
• 35:21
  that when you wore a white shirt, it was somehow whiter than ours
• 35:27
  And I really, like, you know, t- tried to dig in on what he meant.
• 35:30
  He just said, "There was something brighter about you.
• 35:33
  Somehow you shone a bit more." And I go, "Yeah, I was… I don't think it was."
• 35:37
  And he goes, "What?
• 35:38
  What do you mean?" I said, "I just think I was hungrier.
• 35:41
  I just think I was more willing to take the chance and do the thing, a- and I
• 35:46
  was more in pain here than you were.
• 35:50
  I was more frustrated, and that's what pushed me out." And when we see
• 35:54
  companies in this place, we see them in their, you know, their, their pub
• 35:58
  table surrounded by the people who are all complaining about the same thing,
• 36:01
  but nobody's willing to do anything.
• 36:03
  And we say, "Oh, I want innovation." But you don't want innovation.
• 36:06
  What you want is a tweak that won't be too uncomfortable.
• 36:10
  Innovation is burn shit down, let's do something else.
• 36:13
  Now, I'm not saying you have to burn the organization, but you start a skunkworks
• 36:16
  and you say, "Okay, do something.
• 36:18
  We, it doesn't ma- matter if it's off-brand, do it.
• 36:21
  Let's see what happens." And they come up with something, you take that on.
• 36:24
  You make that, you implement that.
• 36:27
  That's that willingness to say, "Okay, this is going to be painful in the
• 36:32
  transition, but this is the transformation that go- that comes out of it." We
• 36:36
  don't do it personally, we don't do it as organization, and the problem
• 36:39
  is, the more successful you are as an individual or as an organization, the
• 36:44
  more addicted you become to what you have and the more it deteriorates.
• 36:49
  That's the problem with it.
• 36:50
  It's atrophy.
• 36:52
  Success creates atrophy.
• 36:54
  Innovation happens when things are hard, when things are tough.
• 36:58
  How many transformations took place because of COVID?
• 37:01
  Mm.
• 37:02
  COVID was shit for all of us, but so many businesses transformed.
• 37:06
  Businesses said, "We couldn't possibly do remote." Went remote in three weeks.
• 37:11
  "We're a global organization, we can't do that." Three weeks, boom.
• 37:14
  You wanna go out of business?
• 37:15
  No?
• 37:15
  Okay, well you go remote.
• 37:17
  Is it painful?
• 37:18
  Yes.
• 37:18
  Did you make it happen?
• 37:19
  Yes.
• 37:21
  You want people to come back to work?
• 37:22
  I'm telling this all the time now.
• 37:24
  You want people to come back to work?
• 37:25
  They go, "Yeah." Why would they?
• 37:27
  There's no- you have given them no reason.
• 37:29
  Follow this, what I lay out in this book, and they'll want to be there.
• 37:33
  Instead of building a company where people are going to do a job,
• 37:38
  they're being part of a community.
• 37:40
  The bowling club is gone.
• 37:42
  The bridge club is gone.
• 37:44
  The whatever club that they used to go to, their social world has fallen apart
• 37:48
  because of COVID, so create a community.
• 37:51
  One of the things we talk about that we've done in organizations is this, crazy
• 37:55
  idea: one day a month, one day a month, everybody, whoever it is, gets paid to
• 38:02
  come to work, but nobody does any work.
• 38:06
  Now, you get to pick from four days, so you can come up with any of those days,
• 38:10
  and you come to work and you don't work.
• 38:12
  And as in, you don't have to work.
• 38:14
  You can if you want to.
• 38:16
  But it, we put on lots of food and so- and social, and it's a place
• 38:20
  where you come and have a water cooler day "Aidan, how you doing?
• 38:25
  How's the kids?
• 38:26
  How's it going?
• 38:26
  How, how's your missus?
• 38:27
  What's it going on?
• 38:28
  What are you up to now?
• 38:28
  What are you doing now?"
• 38:29
  And we start this.
• 38:30
  And we say, "Well, what have you been working on?" And then we start realizing
• 38:34
  that we've got all kinds of things to offer each other, and what we find
• 38:37
  is more innovation comes out of that.
• 38:39
  And I am now looking forward to going to work, and guess what happens?
• 38:43
  Well, I don't wanna just come one day.
• 38:45
  Can I come, can I come two?
• 38:47
  Sure.
• 38:47
  I can go… You can come two.
• 38:49
  Well, can I come back into the office and have an actual office maybe
• 38:52
  three days a week, four days a week?
• 38:54
  Sure.
• 38:55
  They want to be there because it's a community.
• 38:57
  We are tribal.
• 38:58
  We want to find a place where we can belong.
• 39:01
  And if you wanna show up and be innovative and be brilliant and be part
• 39:04
  of the community, and you wanna wear a dress and a beard, why do I care?
• 39:09
  I don't need you to be in khakis and a blue shirt.
• 39:11
  Why do I care?
• 39:13
  I need you to bring all of you and all of your brilliance and your genius and
• 39:16
  your community to this environment.
• 39:19
  Yes, okay.
• 39:20
  Please, let's do that.
• 39:21
  COVID, you mentioned in the book, The Great Resignation, 47 million
• 39:25
  Americans are, you re- you cite in this book, quit their jobs.
• 39:28
  Yeah.
• 39:29
  And they quit because there's no meaning, no purpose in the organizations.
• 39:33
  So it wasn't just, "I'm going for higher pay," et cetera,
• 39:37
  but 47 million, Americans only.
• 39:39
  But I wanted to, to link it to what you call the great pause.
• 39:44
  Yeah.
• 39:44
  Because w- if you, if you go back to your moment of the, the jar breaking so you
• 39:50
  could read the label on the jar, you fall, the cat moment, and that was your pause.
• 39:56
  Mm-hmm.
• 39:57
  And, and, and also what COVID in a way did was it paused where you
• 40:02
  couldn't do, like your mate with only cocaine at the weekends, Thursday,
• 40:05
  Friday, Saturday, Sunday . You couldn't do that with your wine.
• 40:09
  "I'll only have wine at the weekend." Right.
• 40:10
  During COVID consumption of a- alcohol was much, much higher.
• 40:14
  So people were numbing-
• 40:15
  Yes
• 40:16
  … the, the quiet they had, the moments where actually you can hear yourself.
• 40:22
  And there were kind of whatever voice, the vocation, the inner
• 40:26
  voice saying, "You need to change.
• 40:28
  You're not enjoying yourself.
• 40:30
  Life's not going the way you thought it was.
• 40:31
  Remember those dreams you had?
• 40:33
  Have another drink.
• 40:34
  Quiet that noise." But COVID stopped that.
• 40:37
  Yes.
• 40:38
  And it, it's a major moment, you call it in the book.
• 40:41
  Yeah.
• 40:41
  I, I call it the great pause because it was, it was a pause.
• 40:44
  I can remember clearly some of my clients calling me and saying, you know, "I don't
• 40:49
  know what to do here," when COVID kicked.
• 40:51
  And I said, "Well, I'm gonna tell you two things you're gonna wanna
• 40:54
  do, and you probably shouldn't.
• 40:57
  And the first is you're gonna wanna fire me because you're gonna go, 'I can't
• 41:00
  afford the costs anymore.' And I said-
• 41:02
  that is the last thing you should do.
• 41:05
  And I said, "And the other thing you're gonna wanna do is you're gonna wanna wait
• 41:08
  for things to get back to normal, and you need to stop doing that 'cause normal is
• 41:12
  over." Normal, it never existed anyway.
• 41:15
  Normal is only what you got used to.
• 41:17
  But stop waiting for things to get back to normal, 'cause
• 41:19
  that's just me going, "I'm great.
• 41:20
  I'm coming back." No, you're not.
• 41:22
  It's not gonna happen.
• 41:25
  And so getting people to, to stop and be with that, we're
• 41:29
  saying what, why are we here?
• 41:33
  What is the meaning of what we're doing?
• 41:35
  Not what's the meaning we tell ourselves.
• 41:37
  What's the actual meaning?
• 41:38
  What is the purpose?
• 41:39
  So in my work with, with my clients even if it's around their
• 41:42
  organization, I go, "What started this?"
• 41:45
  And they go, "Well, it was my grandad." "Oh, okay.
• 41:48
  Do you know why?" "No." And we'll do an archeological dig, and we find out,
• 41:52
  well, why did your grandad start this?
• 41:55
  "Well, because he was bullied at this." Oh, okay.
• 41:58
  So we start finding out these deeply personal stories
• 42:01
  that actually are the fire.
• 42:03
  That's the fire that set things alight.
• 42:05
  But now you're looking at spreadsheets, and you're looking at KPIs, and
• 42:09
  you're looking at other bullshit that actually doesn't matter.
• 42:12
  Sure, it matters in the, in the big end deal, but it's … We're, we're
• 42:17
  running our businesses on quarters as opposed to on essence, on, on
• 42:22
  what's driving us, so that we can create a 10, 20, 50, 100-year vision.
• 42:27
  That's the difference.
• 42:28
  As opposed to now we're in a s- we're in a shareholder world where we've got the
• 42:33
  shareholders say, "Oh, we gotta make more profit this year." Well, hold on a second.
• 42:36
  What about-
• 42:39
  How did we really do on people?
• 42:41
  You know, there's this talk about all the people who've been fired
• 42:44
  because of AI And the question is, are they fired because of AI?
• 42:51
  Or were they fired because they'd overhired, the organization had
• 42:54
  overhired, and they can't say that to the s- to the shareholders, so
• 42:59
  they say, "Oh, we're making- we're bringing people with, with AI." Mm, no.
• 43:03
  And what's more is AI is only working about 5% across the board.
• 43:08
  That's not my opinion, that's research results.
• 43:11
  So it's not the AI.
• 43:13
  We, we are living in a world, and again, I'll talk about this tomorrow, where
• 43:18
  we think the future of work is AI.
• 43:20
  The future of work is human, but it depends on our humanity.
• 43:24
  Mm. And that's where we lose it when we're doing the spreadsheets with
• 43:27
  the KPIs and, you know, all these things that forget it's about people.
• 43:33
  And I think it's, it's, everything's a polarity.
• 43:36
  So of course it'll swing that way, and it'll swing back.
• 43:39
  And I tell people all the time, listen, what-- For the last 20 years,
• 43:45
  you know this better than most, we're all told, get in your niche,
• 43:50
  find your niche- Yeah … go deep into the niche, and you'll do well.
• 43:53
  Twenty years ago, that was true, and it was great.
• 43:57
  It was a great strategy.
• 43:59
  It's a terrible strategy now.
• 44:01
  Why?
• 44:01
  'Cause AI can go deeper in your niche than you could if you spend the-- if
• 44:04
  you're on the planet for 20 more years.
• 44:06
  It's not gonna happen.
• 44:08
  So what is going to have to happen is you're going to have to be you
• 44:13
  know, I happen to be somebody who, who operates like this as a natural…
• 44:18
  I'm a polymath.
• 44:19
  I study many different things and then show the con-connections
• 44:23
  between those things.
• 44:23
  But you can be an integrative thinker, which is not the same as a polymath, but
• 44:27
  you can look at things and go, "Yeah, I've had a specialty in this, and I
• 44:30
  have a good understanding of that and a bit of understanding about this, but
• 44:32
  here's the connections that AI can never make, because it's the human piece."
• 44:37
  Those are gonna be the most valuable people.
• 44:39
  And the interesting thing is that that's gonna happen in companies.
• 44:43
  You used to be the specialty in this, but if you can bring this
• 44:46
  into it, you can serve at a higher level, and now you're indispensable.
• 44:51
  It's the humanity.
• 44:52
  It's bringing us back to our humanity that matters most.
• 44:56
  That's where the change really takes place.
• 44:58
  Beautiful, man.
• 44:59
  I, I was thinking about the, this idea that, and you talk about this in the
• 45:03
  book as well, that you can let life happen to you or you can happen to life.
• 45:08
  Yeah.
• 45:08
  And I was explaining this to my kids.
• 45:10
  So my younger kid wants to play for Man United, by the way.
• 45:14
  Oh, well.
• 45:14
  We'll forgive him.
• 45:16
  He's, Well, he probably has a chance at the, the way they've
• 45:18
  been the last few years.
• 45:19
  But anyway, he, he was telling me that… So he, he was terrible a few years
• 45:24
  ago, and he, he just went out and he practiced, and he practiced and practiced.
• 45:27
  And then his friends would go, "How did you get so good all of a sudden?"
• 45:31
  All of a sudden.
• 45:31
  Yeah.
• 45:32
  And he's like, gone, "I, I practiced." And they go, "No, no,
• 45:34
  your dad, your dad was an athlete.
• 45:36
  He…" Like, I, I had terrible genetics, by the way, so I was not-
• 45:39
  Right
• 45:40
  … any way helpful, except maybe mindset.
• 45:42
  Right.
• 45:42
  Because when there were kids outside our house, there was
• 45:46
  a, w- w- it was terrible land.
• 45:48
  So the usual thing where the builders just basically put a tiny bit of topsoil,
• 45:53
  the, the least they can get away with.
• 45:55
  Again, back to meaning.
• 45:56
  Yep.
• 45:56
  Do you wanna build proper houses or do you just wanna make a profit?
• 45:59
  Worst possible gardens.
• 46:01
  The s- soil is, like, that thick, and they planted these trees, and
• 46:05
  the trees would not take over, take off for anyone in the estate.
• 46:09
  So everybody complained, like the guys in the pub.
• 46:11
  Complain, complain, complain.
• 46:13
  And I went, "Well, the problem's the soil." So I hired a skip.
• 46:18
  I actually got three skips And over time, I didn't know I was gonna do scale.
• 46:23
  I don't know what I started when I started, but I dug it with a pickaxe.
• 46:26
  Dug all these trenches, rechanged all the soil, replanted all the trees.
• 46:31
  Our trees take over everywhere.
• 46:33
  The rest of the estate, "Oh, what trees did you get? It must be
• 46:36
  the trees." No, it was the trees.
• 46:37
  It's not the trees.
• 46:37
  Right.
• 46:38
  It's the soil.
• 46:38
  And I, I, I use it as a metaphor for the kids all the time to go,
• 46:42
  you can complain about something, or you can do something about it.
• 46:46
  Beautiful.
• 46:47
  And that, that for me, is where all this work comes to.
• 46:51
  And I know, like you said, whatever was in you, whatever was in me
• 46:54
  to, to just do it, to travel.
• 46:57
  Like m- all my mates did the same thing that most people do, which
• 47:00
  is like, in Ireland, it's like, go to Australia, go to America for a
• 47:03
  year, just drink for the summer.
• 47:05
  I didn't.
• 47:06
  I trained.
• 47:06
  I actually stayed at home.
• 47:07
  I trained.
• 47:08
  And then when they came back, I went and I did a year away in France, did Erasmus.
• 47:11
  But those… and I don't know where, where it came from.
• 47:14
  And by reading this book as well, it makes you go, "Well, why? Why
• 47:18
  was, why was I-" Right … "doing that? What…" Like, what?
• 47:22
  Like, I was always a kind of a loner kid anyway.
• 47:24
  Like I, I was happy in my own company.
• 47:26
  And I think that's, that's a gift in a way because-
• 47:29
  It feels like absolute misery when you're a kid.
• 47:32
  Yeah.
• 47:33
  Like not, not when you're on your own, but when you go out into the world as a kid.
• 47:36
  Yeah.
• 47:36
  Right?
• 47:37
  Yeah.
• 47:37
  So when you're on your own, you're like, "I'm good.
• 47:38
  I, I'm enjoying this." And l- like, for me, it was like, I
• 47:40
  love staying at home and drawing.
• 47:42
  Yeah.
• 47:42
  Right?
• 47:42
  But then you go out with your mates and you're like, you,
• 47:44
  you're like, you're like a- I'm
• 47:45
  easy
• 47:46
  … yeah, it's like, "Oh, I don't fit in here." It's really painful.
• 47:49
  Yeah.
• 47:49
  And then
• 47:50
  I'll- But later on it becomes great.
• 47:51
  Yeah, it does.
• 47:52
  It does.
• 47:53
  And, and actually later on this, this script flips and they're
• 47:56
  kind of like looking and going, "I want, I wanna do what you do."
• 47:58
  Well, they go… Then they say, "You were lucky."
• 48:01
  Yeah.
• 48:01
  Yeah.
• 48:02
  That's the thing, you were lucky.
• 48:03
  You were lucky.
• 48:04
  Same with my son with the football.
• 48:06
  Right.
• 48:06
  "Oh, you were lu- you were lucky," and you're going,
• 48:07
  "Yeah, but I worked my ass off."
• 48:09
  Right.
• 48:09
  But I, I say all that to say that one of the things, and again, it's one of these
• 48:14
  things that in certain contexts it's a curse, where, say for example, I stay
• 48:20
  in a hotel and I have a bad experience, I have to say something about it.
• 48:23
  Yeah.
• 48:23
  I ca- or I get a steak, it's terrible.
• 48:25
  I have to send it back.
• 48:26
  I just, I cannot not do it.
• 48:28
  Like, I, it's… You're, you're my brother.
• 48:31
  Absolutely.
• 48:31
  I, I, my, like people are like, "Oh my God- I know … he's,
• 48:34
  he's gonna complain." I know.
• 48:35
  Of course I'm gonna complain.
• 48:37
  I know.
• 48:37
  How are they going to know to make it better if I don't say anything?
• 48:40
  But also- I'm helping them
• 48:42
  … I feel, I feel like an obligation.
• 48:44
  Like I would actually be angry at myself.
• 48:47
  And actually you talk about that, the times you're most angry are the
• 48:50
  times you don't stand up for yourself.
• 48:51
  Of course.
• 48:52
  Where you don't speak yourself or you don't, you're not yourself
• 48:54
  in a co- And you, you go home and you're angry, you complain about the
• 48:57
  company, but you're angry at yourself- Yeah … for actually not doing it.
• 49:00
  But I, I say all that to say that there's a quote by George Bernard
• 49:03
  Shaw, "All progress depends on the unreasonable man or woman." Right?
• 49:08
  Beautiful quote because I do think that it takes somebody- at the table, like you
• 49:13
  with the lads in the pub, to go, "I'm out, lads. I'm gonna do something about it."
• 49:18
  Right.
• 49:18
  Like, like we can moan about it, but moaning and doing is different.
• 49:21
  But I bring it back to a real important point, and maybe one that we'll finish
• 49:25
  on, and maybe… I, I thought we'd finish on this and then give our audience a,
• 49:29
  a, an exercise to do on themselves-
• 49:31
  Absolutely
• 49:32
  … to get started on this journey.
• 49:33
  But it's the cognitive diversity that you had a different view
• 49:38
  of the world since you were 10.
• 49:40
  Yep.
• 49:40
  Since you were educating yourself.
• 49:41
  It was in you anyway, but you, you, you kept gathering, gathering, gathering
• 49:45
  new lenses, saw things differently.
• 49:47
  Then you had to get up and to-- go, to go, "I'm out of here, lads."
• 49:50
  Mm-hmm.
• 49:51
  But in an organization, if you have only sycophants and you don't have people who
• 49:55
  have the psychological safety and the, the right emotional source code to be
• 50:01
  able to go, "Guys, our strategy's wrong."
• 50:04
  Or- "We have no meaning. People are coming for a paycheck. We may look
• 50:08
  well for the next few years, but in a, in 10 years we're screwed."
• 50:12
  Right.
• 50:12
  No Gen Z, that you talk about in the book.
• 50:14
  Yeah.
• 50:14
  And so no future generations coming on board.
• 50:17
  So maybe a word on that cognitive diversity, how to, how to
• 50:22
  foster it, and how to, even as a leader, how to welcome it.
• 50:26
  Because oftentimes you think a leader, a leader thinks they're doing it-
• 50:29
  Mm-hmm
• 50:30
  … but they're actually almost being disingenuous or actually deflecting it.
• 50:34
  And, and it's little subtle things where there might be-- they might
• 50:38
  nod when you suggest an idea, or they might go, "Oh," throw their eyes up.
• 50:42
  And they don't even know they're doing it half the time.
• 50:44
  No.
• 50:44
  No, I think you're absolutely right.
• 50:46
  I, I think that there are some, I know, because I've worked with them,
• 50:50
  genuinely good leaders, as in good human beings, who have no idea how
• 50:55
  much they are s- shutting down things.
• 51:00
  Not because they're assholes, just because they're not aware enough of themselves.
• 51:05
  Again, this is why, as you said, the book is saying, "You want
• 51:08
  transformation, transform yourself first."
• 51:11
  So let's talk about this first at the primal psychology level.
• 51:17
  When- We lived out on the savanna.
• 51:22
  We were not the fastest animal on the savanna.
• 51:25
  We were not the strongest animal on the savanna.
• 51:27
  And so if you were alone, you were lunch.
• 51:29
  So you needed the tribe, and that was a good trade.
• 51:32
  You traded off parts of yourself to fit in with the tribe 'cause then you got to
• 51:36
  have to eat, to have safety, et cetera.
• 51:39
  It was a good trade.
• 51:41
  The problem is the amygdala, which is the, the threat-responding part of your
• 51:44
  brain, reads threat in all kinds of ways.
• 51:48
  It's learned to do that over 200,000 years.
• 51:51
  And so consequently, when somebody threatens you, even in a subtle
• 51:58
  way, you will conform to the tribe.
• 52:02
  Now, so we do this, our amygdala responds to a situation, floods the
• 52:09
  brain with cortisol, which is the stress hormone, and so we shut down
• 52:13
  as if our life was threatened even though we're just in a meeting.
• 52:17
  Nobody's gonna die, but we respond as if we're going to die.
• 52:21
  So the boss who is just doing that little sideways look or that little
• 52:26
  tonality that he or she is not aware of is shutting down innovation.
• 52:32
  And so what I learn as the member of the team is that's not gonna land.
• 52:37
  And so you and I are having a conversation.
• 52:39
  We know what's good for the company, and we see what the boss is putting forward.
• 52:42
  And you and I have talked about your idea, and I think it's a great idea.
• 52:45
  And we both … We agree it's a great idea.
• 52:47
  And I say, "Well, why don't you say it?" And you go, "Well, 'cause you know him.
• 52:50
  You know.
• 52:51
  You know what will happen." We already know that it's not going to be safe.
• 52:55
  So this idea of building psychological safety, we don't
• 53:00
  really understand what that means.
• 53:02
  It's one of those terms that gets thrown around.
• 53:04
  Always, it's a psychologically safe place.
• 53:06
  People can say things.
• 53:07
  Really?
• 53:07
  Are you sure?
• 53:09
  Oh, yeah.
• 53:09
  Really?
• 53:10
  So that I could come to work tomorrow and say, "You're doing a shit job, boss"?
• 53:14
  Well, no, of course not.
• 53:15
  You know, it has to be delivered in a respectful way.
• 53:17
  Okay.
• 53:18
  I respect you, boss, but you're doing a shit job.
• 53:20
  Is that what … No.
• 53:21
  So how do you do it?
• 53:24
  They don't understand what it actually is.
• 53:27
  It's gotta be safe for you to come up with things that allow me to be me.
• 53:32
  I may not have the greatest way of delivering it, but can you hear it anyway?
• 53:39
  And so psychological safety is can I allow you to show up as you in all of
• 53:45
  your forms, in whatever your form is?
• 53:48
  And so cognitive diversity as opposed to DEI, real cognitive
• 53:52
  diversity, is what matters.
• 53:53
  I-- The, the company that will fail-- If I want my company to fail, I need
• 53:59
  to hire a lot of people like me.
• 54:01
  That's a guaranteed fail, right?
• 54:04
  Because everything that I'm defective on just gets multiplied, right?
• 54:08
  There's no organization.
• 54:10
  I'm not the organized guy.
• 54:11
  I don't do that.
• 54:12
  I have people who do that, thank God, or else it would be a shit show.
• 54:17
  I have to have those people.
• 54:18
  Do I understand them?
• 54:20
  No.
• 54:21
  But can I make space for them?
• 54:22
  Yes.
• 54:23
  I have somebody who works in my organization.
• 54:25
  She she says, "I'm going to convert you to the church of spreadsheets."
• 54:29
  I'm going, "Good luck with that." Never going to happen, right?
• 54:33
  Sure.
• 54:33
  Yeah.
• 54:33
  I'm just not that guy.
• 54:35
  Yeah.
• 54:35
  But she, she throfts at the mouth.
• 54:37
  She's ex- And I'm- She loves it.
• 54:38
  Yeah … genuinely excited for her- Yeah.
• 54:39
  Yeah … that she gets that.
• 54:41
  I need that.
• 54:43
  And she has her own weird and wonderful ways, and I like that, and I encourage
• 54:47
  that in her because that makes her want to show up in all of her glory
• 54:53
  that doesn't necessarily match mine.
• 54:54
  That's the cognitive diversity.
• 54:56
  We need that.
• 54:57
  We need people who don't think like me.
• 55:00
  We need people who think in a completely different way, who are entirely, in
• 55:04
  her case, who are entirely mechanistic.
• 55:07
  And I need people who think in other ways.
• 55:10
  So we think about-- When we say about cognitive diversity,
• 55:13
  we think about somebody being autistic or something like that.
• 55:16
  Well, let me just give you a clue.
• 55:17
  Most of us are on some form of a spectrum anyway.
• 55:20
  We've all got our own weird and wonderful things.
• 55:23
  It's not about autism or lack of autism.
• 55:26
  It's about you have a framework for normal, and what you call normal
• 55:31
  is simply the way you operate.
• 55:33
  It's not the truth.
• 55:35
  And we even say things like, "Well, where's his bloody common sense?"
• 55:40
  Common sense means it's common to you.
• 55:42
  Yeah.
• 55:42
  It's not common.
• 55:44
  So this person looks at the world through a set of lenses and says, "This is how
• 55:49
  the world is." For instance, if I hold up a color and say, "What is this?"
• 55:53
  And you go, "Oh, it's green." I hold it up to someone else who has different
• 55:58
  ways at, which their color works.
• 56:00
  They don't see green.
• 56:01
  How is that possible?
• 56:02
  If you're wearing red lenses and I show you something green, what-- I say,
• 56:06
  "What color is this?" You say, "It's brown You can't see the green i- because
• 56:11
  you're looking through red lenses.
• 56:13
  It's brown.
• 56:14
  Is it brown?
• 56:15
  Well, the fact is it is because you're looking through red lenses.
• 56:18
  Do you know you're wearing red lenses?
• 56:20
  Oh, well, no.
• 56:21
  Those contacts were put in at birth in your emotional environment.
• 56:26
  So there is no green.
• 56:28
  There's only brown.
• 56:30
  If you're looking through where I grew up, everything's gray.
• 56:33
  It's just varying shades of gray.
• 56:35
  I remember that.
• 56:36
  I cannot… I, I, I have a, a g- a problem with visualizing.
• 56:41
  That's part of my challenge in my psyche.
• 56:43
  But I can't even picture a memory- Right … of anything that isn't i- in colors.
• 56:48
  It's-- If I have anything, it's gray I grew up in a gray
• 56:53
  environment, psychologically a gray environment, so there's no color.
• 56:56
  When I think about my childhood, there's no color.
• 56:59
  Zero.
• 57:00
  So does that mean there's something wrong with me?
• 57:03
  Yeah, probably, but not really, just as it's not better or
• 57:08
  worse than somebody else's.
• 57:10
  So if we're gonna build a, a, a culture of belonging, you
• 57:15
  don't have to have it my way.
• 57:17
  A culture of fit in says, "You have to think this way." And, and I'm sorry,
• 57:21
  and I say this all the time, I loved the book Good to Great, I think it was
• 57:25
  a fantastic book, in its day, right?
• 57:29
  So let's put that in parentheses, in its day.
• 57:32
  Get the right people on the bus, on the right bus, sitting in the right seats.
• 57:36
  No, let's get the right people who are whatever they are, sitting wherever they
• 57:41
  want, and find out what it is they can do.
• 57:44
  Because you don't know that the person you hired as an
• 57:46
  accountant is incredibly creative.
• 57:48
  It doesn't fit with the accounting, so they never let you see it.
• 57:52
  But you put them into a skunkworks where everybody's throwing creative ideas
• 57:55
  around, and you suddenly go, "Holy crap, Bob, you're really creative. Susan,
• 57:59
  I never knew that about you. That's fantastic." You have to give people
• 58:03
  space to be emotionally, cognitively free enough, safe enough to express
• 58:09
  something that you wouldn't expect.
• 58:12
  Beautiful.
• 58:13
  You know, I, I thinking about the reading you've done, et cetera, I
• 58:18
  think the… and this is what I was saying about the hedge, is that you
• 58:20
  have to be deliberate about this work.
• 58:22
  Like, you, it doesn't just happen to you.
• 58:24
  Like, you just don't go let the jar smash and I'm all good.
• 58:29
  You still have to do something.
• 58:30
  You have to take action.
• 58:31
  Absolutely.
• 58:32
  And I, I, one of the, one of the habits I've formed over the last year, nearly
• 58:38
  10 years now, never missed a week, I write an article that's loosely
• 58:41
  associated to the conversation I had.
• 58:43
  And I'll, I'll usually pepper it with some metaphor that I've
• 58:48
  read from a different field.
• 58:50
  So this week, which is, was so funny, I've literally finished writing here
• 58:54
  in, in the hotel in Vancouver this idea of as an organization grows, it goes
• 59:01
  through its own kind of curve, but the people involved are very, very different.
• 59:05
  And you talked about the founder leaving the organization and
• 59:08
  therefore, like the Steve Jobs story, the, the organization changes.
• 59:13
  But what they discovered was, and this is where the metaphor came from, I read
• 59:16
  a paper, brand new s- neuroscience paper, where they believed in the past that
• 59:22
  the brain, the, the microglial cells in your brain aged- And what they've
• 59:29
  actually discovered is they're replaced.
• 59:30
  Yes.
• 59:31
  They're replaced by these different ones, but they're
• 59:33
  pro-inflammatory, so they actually cause dementia and stuff like these.
• 59:36
  And actually what there are, these, what they, if you call them founding
• 59:40
  cells- Yeah … that are there since the embryo, actually don't
• 59:44
  go old and then just become cranky.
• 59:46
  They're replaced by these ones that are way more inflammatory and way
• 59:50
  more risk-averse, any deviation.
• 59:53
  And I was like, "Oh, that's exactly what happens in an organization."
• 59:55
  There's a book by Lawrence Miller called From Bureaucrats to Barbari-
• 59:59
  From Barbarians to Bureaucrats.
• 1:00:01
  Right.
• 1:00:01
  And I just wanted to, to share your thoughts on that because oftentimes a
• 1:00:06
  leader will come into an organization, and understanding its life cycle
• 1:00:11
  stage and understanding the life cycle stage of whatever industry
• 1:00:15
  it's in is essentially important.
• 1:00:17
  But back to your point as well, is that you have to also initiate the
• 1:00:23
  change and actually realize, "I do need cognitive diversity. I need the
• 1:00:27
  spreadsheet person," your colleague.
• 1:00:29
  Yeah.
• 1:00:29
  "I need that person."
• 1:00:30
  Yeah.
• 1:00:31
  Th-
• 1:00:31
  they're not, they're not anti-innovation.
• 1:00:33
  No.
• 1:00:33
  They're brilliant at their job, but I need them to do their job.
• 1:00:37
  And maybe when I change the context or ask a different question, they can actually
• 1:00:41
  express something from my innovative mind.
• 1:00:43
  I'm going, "I never thought of that."
• 1:00:45
  Right.
• 1:00:45
  Because they're thinking from where they sit and their expertise level.
• 1:00:49
  I just thought you'd share a level, particularly to leaders that you
• 1:00:52
  work with who are going through these massive transformations, where
• 1:00:55
  their identity was based on how the organization worked before, and they're
• 1:00:59
  kind of going, "It's not gonna be the same organization anymore, Jennifer.
• 1:01:02
  You have to change how you show up here." What's your advice for, for those
• 1:01:07
  leaders managing those transitions?
• 1:01:09
  That's a really great question because-
• 1:01:14
  I, I have constantly been banging my head on a wall with what
• 1:01:22
  I tell leaders all the time.
• 1:01:24
  You can have the person in your organization who is a superstar, and
• 1:01:29
  let's say they are top salesperson.
• 1:01:34
  They outsell everybody.
• 1:01:36
  But if that person is toxic to the community, that person you think they're
• 1:01:41
  making you money is costing you money.
• 1:01:44
  And, and when you want to bring this change innovation forward, and they
• 1:01:50
  say, "Well, I'm not changing 'cause I, I'm, I'm a superstar. I do… I earn
• 1:01:53
  the right." If you don't fire them, you have already lost the entire community.
• 1:01:58
  And people go, "Well, what do you mean? And they're, they're responsible
• 1:02:02
  for 40% of our sales." And my answer is very simple: No, they're not.
• 1:02:07
  That's what it looks like.
• 1:02:08
  I give you that.
• 1:02:09
  I fully own that.
• 1:02:10
  But here's what would happen.
• 1:02:12
  What you don't understand is that person's toxic, and that means that
• 1:02:15
  they lower the energy of everybody else in the environment, so nobody
• 1:02:19
  sells as well anyway, 'cause they're not particularly happy.
• 1:02:21
  They're just doing a job And what's more is they're following
• 1:02:25
  resentment against you because you won't get rid of this toxic
• 1:02:28
  personality, and so they perform low.
• 1:02:31
  You get rid of the 40% salesperson, everybody's energy comes up, they start
• 1:02:36
  to have greater respect for you, and they want to be at work, and all their
• 1:02:39
  numbers come up, and it covers it.
• 1:02:40
  Now, is there a gap?
• 1:02:42
  Sure, there's a gap.
• 1:02:43
  Takes a little while, but it always happens, and the people want to be there.
• 1:02:47
  And I think you've got to think about that at all levels, not
• 1:02:50
  just in sales, but at all levels.
• 1:02:52
  If you, if you have somebody who wants to resist the change, that's natural.
• 1:02:56
  That doesn't mean you should get rid of them.
• 1:02:58
  We all resist change.
• 1:03:01
  The question is, are you conveying what the change is and not just what the
• 1:03:06
  change is, but the meaning of the change?
• 1:03:09
  If we don't communicate meaning to people-- So if you want to move the
• 1:03:13
  tribe, you must change the meaning.
• 1:03:15
  The, the person who determines the meaning of a tribe is the one who determines the
• 1:03:19
  movement of the tribe, and that's what happens inside of a cultural organization.
• 1:03:23
  If your company's not moving the way you want it to, it has the wrong meaning.
• 1:03:28
  You've not found the meaning.
• 1:03:30
  So I'll give you one quick example.
• 1:03:32
  We were brought in to work with a company, actually here in Western
• 1:03:35
  Canada, who own the-- They're an umbrella of thirty-seven companies.
• 1:03:40
  Their lead company is in construction.
• 1:03:42
  Very, very well.
• 1:03:44
  I worked with the founder, the CEO, and the C-suite.
• 1:03:48
  And I'm working with them all, and so I go in early, and this is often what I'll
• 1:03:52
  do, is I'll go in and I say "I wanna go in, but I don't want you to meet me. I
• 1:03:57
  want someone else to greet me, and I just want them to walk me around the place."
• 1:04:03
  "Okay." So we walk around.
• 1:04:06
  I interact with the person out front.
• 1:04:08
  They don't know who I am, so they're gonna be however they're gonna be.
• 1:04:12
  And I walk around, and I look at where, where things are and what
• 1:04:15
  the kind of layout is, just sort of getting a feel for the place.
• 1:04:18
  And I go past this area, and there's this nice espresso machine.
• 1:04:22
  There's a fridge.
• 1:04:23
  I open it up.
• 1:04:24
  It's got some beer, bottled beers in it.
• 1:04:26
  There is beanbags on the floor, and there's even a foosball table.
• 1:04:31
  Nobody there, but okay, that's cool.
• 1:04:33
  So I walk through, seeing different things.
• 1:04:35
  I walk past that area again on my way back out.
• 1:04:37
  Again, still nobody there.
• 1:04:39
  Then I meet with the founder and I say, "Okay, so tell me what the problem is."
• 1:04:42
  He goes, "We can't keep our people." I said, "Oh, really?
• 1:04:45
  Okay.
• 1:04:46
  Tell me how's the pay?" First question, right? He goes, "We pay
• 1:04:50
  better than almost anybody." in the industry. He goes, "We, we offer all
• 1:04:55
  kinds of benefits, blah, blah, blah.
• 1:04:56
  You know, we're good to our people." And I said, "Tell me about that
• 1:05:00
  room." And he goes, "What room?"
• 1:05:01
  And I said, "You know, the one with the cappuccino machines and the beer and
• 1:05:05
  the…" And he goes, "Yeah." He says, "We built that for them, and nobody
• 1:05:09
  uses it." I said… His name was Larry.
• 1:05:12
  I said, "Larry, where's your office in, in relation to this area?" He goes,
• 1:05:15
  "It's right over there." I said, "So they can see you from there, right?"
• 1:05:19
  I said, "How often do you use the office use that area?" He
• 1:05:21
  goes, "I don't use that area.
• 1:05:23
  I stay in my office." I go, "And d- do you think everybody can see you in your
• 1:05:26
  office?" And he goes, "Yeah." "So do they think you're watching them when they're in
• 1:05:29
  that area?" He goes, "Oh, I never thought about that." I go, "Why did you build it?"
• 1:05:34
  He goes, "Well, we read in a book
• 1:05:35
  that Google was doing that and that's what we should do."
• 1:05:37
  I go, "One question for you.
• 1:05:39
  Who did you ask in your organization if that's what they wanted?" He
• 1:05:44
  goes, "We didn't ask anybody.
• 1:05:44
  We just thought it was the right thing to do." So you took it upon yourself to
• 1:05:48
  give them what you thought they wanted.
• 1:05:51
  Have you ever tried doing that with your kids?
• 1:05:52
  That don't work too well, does it?
• 1:05:53
  No.
• 1:05:54
  Oh, okay.
• 1:05:55
  So what do you need to do?
• 1:05:56
  You have to have a communication.
• 1:05:57
  You have to open communication.
• 1:05:59
  I said, "Do you want it to work?" And he goes, "Yeah." I go, "Good.
• 1:06:01
  Then you have to work in that space for two days a week, and you have to
• 1:06:04
  spend an hour a day in that, in that space, not lunchtime, an hour a day
• 1:06:08
  in that space on the other days."
• 1:06:11
  "I can't do that." "Well, okay, then you're never gonna use the space, it's
• 1:06:14
  gonna be wasted, and you're gonna have this siloing that you've got, which
• 1:06:18
  is definitely a problem." He started to do that, it started to change.
• 1:06:23
  People started to talk.
• 1:06:24
  People who came out of their silos started to talk.
• 1:06:28
  This is what we don't understand.
• 1:06:30
  It's a community.
• 1:06:31
  It's a tribal community.
• 1:06:34
  Make people cross over.
• 1:06:36
  We work with a company out of, who were a, a Dutch-British company
• 1:06:40
  who are based out of South Africa.
• 1:06:42
  We work with them, we work with them in France, and we work with them in
• 1:06:44
  England with their executive teams, and one of the things we, they were
• 1:06:48
  having enormous challenges with was the lack of respect between the C-suite.
• 1:06:53
  So marketing didn't respect accounting, accounting did… You
• 1:06:56
  know, all the different… They just had really strong silos.
• 1:06:59
  And I went, "Okay, here's the deal. Who's your nu-" The marketing guy.
• 1:07:02
  "Who's your number two?" "Oh, it's this person." "Great.
• 1:07:05
  Accounting person, who's your number two?" "This person." "Okay.
• 1:07:08
  Your number two is taking over for one week."
• 1:07:11
  And they go, "Why?" 'Cause you two are gonna swap places.
• 1:07:16
  The person, head of marketing is gonna take over accounting.
• 1:07:19
  Person taking over accounting is gonna do marketing.
• 1:07:21
  "I don't know anything about it." Good, then you're gonna learn from the number
• 1:07:23
  two, who's gonna be leading it, and you're gonna learn to appreciate it.
• 1:07:27
  Like, like, they're, they're four days in and they're calling me like, "I
• 1:07:31
  can't stand this." By the end of the week, they're like, "Oh, I get it.
• 1:07:36
  That's why he, he pushes back on every marketing idea.
• 1:07:40
  I get it now 'cause he's under pressure from this and this, and I understand
• 1:07:44
  now where the… Oh." We don't put ourselves in other people's shoes.
• 1:07:48
  We get siloed, not only in, in our organization, but within our own thinking.
• 1:07:53
  Again, normal is what you get used to, it's not the truth.
• 1:07:57
  And so we go, "This is the way it is. These are my lenses. This
• 1:08:00
  is the way it is." No, it's not.
• 1:08:03
  No, it's not.
• 1:08:04
  I've worked with athletes who've gone into business all the time.
• 1:08:06
  They don't think like you.
• 1:08:08
  Not everybody who was an athlete who went into entrepreneurship became you.
• 1:08:13
  It just didn't happen.
• 1:08:15
  Why?
• 1:08:15
  Because they've got their own versions of that- Mm … as have you, and
• 1:08:18
  you bring your magnificence to it, and it's why you're so great at what
• 1:08:21
  you do now is because it wasn't just the discipline of being an athlete,
• 1:08:27
  it was everything else as well.
• 1:08:29
  It's a, it's a history of being born in Ireland.
• 1:08:32
  It's the history of what that was.
• 1:08:34
  It's growing up with that history.
• 1:08:35
  Because if you grow up in, in Ireland, you're growing up with history all around
• 1:08:39
  you, particularly at your age, right?
• 1:08:41
  You're growing up with that.
• 1:08:42
  You grow up with biases about certain people.
• 1:08:45
  It's in there.
• 1:08:46
  You have to climb over that.
• 1:08:48
  Then you go and live in France in a different country, who
• 1:08:51
  speaks a different language.
• 1:08:52
  You have to get over them again.
• 1:08:53
  Anything that challenges your bias is helping you, but we resist that.
• 1:08:59
  I love it.
• 1:08:59
  It's my-- When I'm, when I'm doing my show and I say to
• 1:09:01
  people, "Break my bias, please.
• 1:09:03
  Tell me something where I'm wrong.
• 1:09:06
  It's okay.
• 1:09:06
  I want to learn from that.
• 1:09:08
  It doesn't mean I'll agree with you, but I want you to break my bias and
• 1:09:11
  then show me why I'm wrong." That's valuable to me. It makes me grow. We have
• 1:09:15
  to do that inside of our organization so people go, "Oh, I'm valued here.
• 1:09:19
  I matter." It's not about whether you pay me well, it's about am I seen?
• 1:09:26
  Do I matter?
• 1:09:27
  Do I do you see that I bring value just by being me?
• 1:09:31
  Beautiful.
• 1:09:31
  I think that's a good place to leave it.
• 1:09:33
  But I, I do want to share an exercise and the-- I think the one-- I, like I said,
• 1:09:39
  I have tons of notes here, as you know.
• 1:09:41
  And I was thinking of an exercise to share.
• 1:09:44
  I was gonna say the one about just ta-talking to our audience
• 1:09:47
  about, okay, how to start.
• 1:09:48
  But actually, I think a really useful one is the one you just touched
• 1:09:51
  on there, which is this idea of constructive conflict or understanding
• 1:09:55
  conflict, using it as a guide-
• 1:09:57
  Mm-hmm
• 1:09:57
  … when you get this pushback from a partner or whatever it might be,
• 1:10:00
  a c- a colleague, to go, "Let me understand that side." So, so I'd,
• 1:10:05
  I'd love you to share that exercise.
• 1:10:06
  But before you do, the course, there's a course that accompanies this book.
• 1:10:10
  Yeah.
• 1:10:10
  So maybe you'll share with our audience where to find that.
• 1:10:12
  Yeah.
• 1:10:13
  If you go to dovbaron.com, D-O-V-B-A-R-O-N, and you look for
• 1:10:19
  Cultures of Belonging, which is the name of the course, there's a full
• 1:10:22
  course there that walks you through it.
• 1:10:24
  The book is based on it.
• 1:10:25
  It's not the same as the course because the course is giving you
• 1:10:28
  exercises and walking you through it and making you go deeper on it.
• 1:10:31
  And of course, we also do this privately for organizations if you want us to come
• 1:10:35
  in and, and lead your team through it.
• 1:10:36
  We do that, too.
• 1:10:37
  Brilliant.
• 1:10:38
  Okay.
• 1:10:38
  So let's share this exercise.
• 1:10:40
  I'm, I'm- … I wanna use it myself, but Sure.
• 1:10:44
  So I- It's, it's useful in work or life.
• 1:10:46
  Yeah.
• 1:10:46
  And so I'm not gonna do it word for word for what's- Yeah … in the book
• 1:10:48
  'cause I never do anything word for word.
• 1:10:51
  Of course.
• 1:10:51
  But the truth of the matter is, we all see conflict as a bad thing.
• 1:10:55
  Again, amygdala, threat response, "I don't wanna do conflict." And so
• 1:11:01
  if you remember the f- the falling in love stage with your partner,
• 1:11:05
  I'm sure you can It was fantastic.
• 1:11:08
  You never fought about anything.
• 1:11:09
  In fact, you brag to all your friends, "Oh, it's so
• 1:11:11
  great. We never fight," right?
• 1:11:13
  "We have a lot of sex.
• 1:11:14
  We don't fight.
• 1:11:15
  And we can talk about anything.
• 1:11:16
  It's marvelous.
• 1:11:17
  We stayed up till 4:00 in the morning talking, and then I got up for work,
• 1:11:19
  and I was feeling fresh, and it was great." That's called phase one.
• 1:11:23
  It's supposed to happen.
• 1:11:24
  Neurochemically, it's supposed to happen.
• 1:11:26
  It's PEA, a whole series of neurochemicals that fire off in your brain that make
• 1:11:30
  you blind to that person as a whole.
• 1:11:34
  Then you enter phase two, and phase two is actually when the relationship,
• 1:11:39
  the real relationship begins.
• 1:11:40
  That's called power struggle.
• 1:11:42
  It's where conflict arises.
• 1:11:45
  It's supposed to happen.
• 1:11:47
  That's the beginning of the real relationship.
• 1:11:49
  Now, phase one, it happens across the board.
• 1:11:52
  So you think, "Oh, well, this is just with a marriage."
• 1:11:54
  No, no.
• 1:11:55
  It happens with your boss.
• 1:11:56
  It happens with your mentor.
• 1:11:57
  It happens with your therapist.
• 1:11:58
  It happens with your best friend.
• 1:12:00
  It happens with your lover.
• 1:12:02
  It happens with whoever, anybody you have a relationship with.
• 1:12:06
  Think back and you go, "Yeah, it was about that point when we
• 1:12:08
  really … Ooh, that was … I thought we were gonna be mates for life."
• 1:12:12
  And listen, I'd done all this work before I met my missus.
• 1:12:15
  We've been together about 30 years.
• 1:12:17
  And, and I'd already done a ton of work, and I'd already fallen off the
• 1:12:20
  mountain, and I'd already done all that.
• 1:12:22
  And even I convince myself, "Ah, it's gonna be different this time."
• 1:12:26
  It's never different.
• 1:12:27
  It's never different.
• 1:12:27
  It's gotta happen.
• 1:12:28
  Yeah.
• 1:12:28
  And because that's where the richness is.
• 1:12:31
  That's where the-- we actually get to understand who we're
• 1:12:35
  with and why we're with them.
• 1:12:38
  So instead of looking at conflict as a way of dividing us, it's a
• 1:12:43
  way of showing us another lens, another way of seeing the world.
• 1:12:48
  So when conflict arises, instead of saying, "How can I get away from this?"
• 1:12:52
  It's, "What is this showing me that I don't preferentially want to see?
• 1:12:59
  What is in this?" So when somebody s- comes at you with something, and
• 1:13:04
  they will, your first question has got to be, "What am I not seeing?" So my
• 1:13:11
  re- my internal reaction is to push back and say, "No." But instead it's
• 1:13:17
  like, "Okay, so what I'm hearing is X.
• 1:13:21
  Did I get it?" "No." "Oh, okay.
• 1:13:24
  What, what, what, what did you say?" "I said Y." "But isn't that
• 1:13:29
  the same as X?" "No, it's not.
• 1:13:31
  It's not the same." "Okay, tell me how that's different." So they tell
• 1:13:35
  you, and you go, "Okay, so now what I hear is that it's Y." "Yeah."
• 1:13:41
  "What am I misunderstanding here?
• 1:13:43
  What don't I understand?
• 1:13:44
  How can I dig into that?
• 1:13:45
  What, what can help me to understand that?" We're looking now at conflict as a
• 1:13:50
  way of connecting rather than separating.
• 1:13:54
  How can I get bigger?
• 1:13:55
  How can I get deeper from understanding where you're coming from?
• 1:13:59
  Because here's the thing about underst- understanding about conflict
• 1:14:06
  We're all fighting for something, but we're never fighting about
• 1:14:10
  what we're fighting about.
• 1:14:11
  As you talked about the divorce over the coffee cup, it's not about the coffee cup.
• 1:14:15
  So what you've got to find out is what is it about?
• 1:14:18
  The purpose of the conflict is what is this about?
• 1:14:22
  So what we start off with in this process is tell me the complaint.
• 1:14:26
  What, what's the thing?
• 1:14:28
  When you did X, I felt Y. And people go, "Isn't this a bit woo?" No, it actually
• 1:14:36
  works, and we do it at the C-suite level.
• 1:14:38
  When you did X, I felt Y. Now, first of all, that's gonna take some courage to
• 1:14:43
  admit I felt Y, as opposed to when you did this, you were being dis- disrespectful.
• 1:14:48
  No, no.
• 1:14:49
  When you did X, I felt disrespected.
• 1:14:52
  I've got to take ownership.
• 1:14:54
  That's what we don't do in conflict.
• 1:14:55
  We want to make it about them.
• 1:14:56
  So when you did X, I felt Y. Okay.
• 1:15:01
  So say it back to me.
• 1:15:03
  When I did X, you felt Y. Yeah.
• 1:15:05
  So When I feel Y, when I feel, using disrespected, when I feel
• 1:15:10
  disrespected, I feel like… And then you tell them what that brings up.
• 1:15:16
  What's the feeling that that brings up in you?
• 1:15:18
  Now again, this takes courage.
• 1:15:20
  Yeah.
• 1:15:20
  Conflict is courage.
• 1:15:23
  You can't have healthy conflict without courage.
• 1:15:26
  And conflict is not let's go knuckles to each other.
• 1:15:29
  It's healthy conflict.
• 1:15:30
  How do we come together?
• 1:15:33
  So I felt Y, and when I feel Y, this happens for me.
• 1:15:40
  What is it?
• 1:15:40
  It's this.
• 1:15:42
  Oh, now I understand.
• 1:15:46
  So when I, when I say this, you felt that, and that makes you go to this place.
• 1:15:50
  Yeah.
• 1:15:51
  How can I better understand how to deliver that for you in a way that works for you?
• 1:15:57
  Well, the easy answer is don't be disrespectful.
• 1:15:59
  No, no.
• 1:16:01
  I still need to tell you.
• 1:16:02
  How can I tell you in a way that doesn't make you feel disre- disrespected and
• 1:16:06
  doesn't make you feel the feeling that was below that, which might be worthless?
• 1:16:11
  How can I do that?
• 1:16:13
  You can pref- preface it by saying, "Listen, I really respect you, and I
• 1:16:17
  know that what you've done is great work, but you need to understand
• 1:16:20
  here's what happens for me." And they go, "Okay, that's fantastic.
• 1:16:25
  We can work with that."
• 1:16:27
  It's, it's so important for even… I, I tell my kids this, again, they're
• 1:16:30
  probably sick of listening to me now.
• 1:16:32
  They're
• 1:16:32
  probably- Of course they are, you're their kids
• 1:16:33
  … No, no, no.
• 1:16:33
  Yeah, exactly.
• 1:16:35
  They'll move on, they'll go, "Oh, thank God I'm away from Dad." They, when, when
• 1:16:39
  I have an argument with my wife, I will tell them that it's normal to argue.
• 1:16:43
  And, and I go- Healthy … Yeah, it's, it's, like, not all the
• 1:16:46
  time, obviously, but, like, when we have one, I, I'll explain to them.
• 1:16:50
  And I want them to know because I actually do believe that we have
• 1:16:54
  a massive divorce rate, increasing divorce rates all over the world, and
• 1:16:57
  a lot of people are stuck in marriages.
• 1:16:59
  But they're not having that conversation.
• 1:17:01
  They're
• 1:17:01
  not.
• 1:17:01
  And, and I tell the kids, I was like "If, if I give out to you,
• 1:17:05
  it's because I want you to learn something, because you didn't do the
• 1:17:09
  job right or you did something wrong, and I want you to know what's wrong.
• 1:17:13
  If I didn't care as a dad, I wouldn't say anything." No.
• 1:17:16
  It's easier for me not to say anything.
• 1:17:17
  It's easier for me to go, turn a blind eye, don't care, he'll
• 1:17:20
  learn his own way in the world.
• 1:17:21
  That's easier.
• 1:17:22
  Yeah.
• 1:17:23
  And I tell them because they're both, one's MMA, one's soccer.
• 1:17:25
  I'll go, "Same for your coaches. The coaches that go quiet and don't give you
• 1:17:29
  feedback, even when you don't want to hear it, are the coaches who don't care."
• 1:17:32
  And I believe, I truly believe that that's at the, at the heart of so many divorces
• 1:17:37
  where it's like, "Oh, I just couldn't be arsed having that conversation. I couldn't
• 1:17:42
  be arsed finding out her, her side of the story or his side of the story."
• 1:17:44
  If you're not willing to fight for the relationship, you're
• 1:17:48
  not in the relationship.
• 1:17:50
  If you're fighting to be right, that's not fighting for the relationship.
• 1:17:53
  That's the difference, and that's the difference why you want to encourage
• 1:17:57
  healthy conflict in your organization, 'cause this person is showing up to
• 1:18:00
  tell you this because they give a shit.
• 1:18:03
  Encourage them.
• 1:18:04
  You might not like it, it might not be comfortable, but th- they're
• 1:18:07
  showing you they actually care.
• 1:18:08
  That's what matters.
• 1:18:09
  And it comes full circle to the whole idea of you have to do … I have to say it.
• 1:18:14
  Like, I- Yeah … I can't, sometimes I'll be like, "Oh, you know what?
• 1:18:17
  For a peaceful evening, I'll just say nothing." And I'm like, "Oh,
• 1:18:19
  screw it. I'm saying it." Exactly.
• 1:18:21
  I'm with you.
• 1:18:22
  I, I cannot not say it.
• 1:18:23
  Dov, it's been an absolute pleasure, man.
• 1:18:25
  Really has been a pleasure.
• 1:18:26
  Absolute honor, mate.
• 1:18:27
  Author- Thank
• 1:18:28
  you so much for coming down
• 1:18:29
  … a pleasure.
• 1:18:30
  Author of this new, one of his new ones, The Art of Belonging, Dov
• 1:18:34
  Baron, thank you for joining us.
• 1:18:36
  Thank you.
• 1:18:37
  Nice and brother.
• 1:18:38
  Nice and- All right, mate.
• 1:18:38
  Excellent
• 1:18:38
  … before we finish, I wanna thank our sponsor, Kyndryl, who runs and
• 1:18:41
  reimagines the technology of many of the world's top organizations.
• 1:18:46
  You can find them and many of the authors who have been on the show,
• 1:18:49
  who've written articles for the Kyndryl Institute at K-Y-N-D-R-Y-L, kyndryl.com.