Latest / Sharp Strategies Sweet Success / #76 - Authentic TikTok Marketing for Law Firms with Joshua Hodges

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#76 - Authentic TikTok Marketing for Law Firms with Joshua Hodges · Sharp Strategies Sweet Success

• 0:00
  A lot of people are scared of lawyers,
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  so it shows me in a different light.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm just a regular person.
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  SPEAKER_00: My wife gives me hell like the next guy.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm not some big, tough lawyer that's telling everyone what to do.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it gives you content.
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  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to talk about being a lawyer all the time.
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  SPEAKER_01: Sharp strategies, sweet success.
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  SPEAKER_01: Hello, everyone, and welcome.
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  SPEAKER_01: You're listening to Sharp Strategy, Sweet Success.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Tiffany Swedensky.
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  SPEAKER_01: And today I'm talking to Joshua Hodges of The Hometown Lawyer.
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  SPEAKER_01: And you guys are in Ohio, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Southwest Ohio.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, should have confirmed that before I started.
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  SPEAKER_01: I thought I knew, though.
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  SPEAKER_02: I got the hat on, didn't I?
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  I think I first started noticing Josh when he started posting
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  on Tik TOK.
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  He was one of the first lawyers who made use of that social
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  media platform effectively.
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  And what I like about Josh's approach to a lot of the social
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  channels is it's very
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  SPEAKER_01: personal to him.
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  SPEAKER_01: He's not talking about the law.
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  SPEAKER_01: He's doesn't appear to be working from a content plan.
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  And the content is all really authentic and he just puts
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  himself out there and it
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  SPEAKER_01: fits with his brand.
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  SPEAKER_01: He's the hometown lawyer.
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  SPEAKER_01: And what I've known of Josh,
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  and I'll just gas him up a little bit more before I let him
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  introduce himself,
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  but his firm has grown really fast in his home state of Ohio
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  and has expanded
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  SPEAKER_01: technically beyond his true hometown.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's just really impressive to watch from a distance.
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  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much, Josh, for being on the show with us today.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I'll let you talk a little bit about yourself.
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  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
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  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for the intro.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, man, that's pretty much it.
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  I mean,
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  I didn't become an attorney until I was a little bit older than
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  most people.
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  I was 32 when I got licensed,
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  and then I worked in big law for a couple of years.
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  So I was like 34,
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  35 when I decided to go all in and try to build a PI firm.
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  SPEAKER_00: And nobody in my family was attorneys.
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  I didn't really have a lot of connections or a lot of money or
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  any of that stuff
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  SPEAKER_00: that a lot of times you might need.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I think I just knew that I knew kind of my community better.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know,
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  SPEAKER_00: like I grew up in a working class town and a working class,
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  SPEAKER_00: part of the working class town,
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  SPEAKER_00: I guess.
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  And I just knew that I could maybe speak to those people and
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  you had to figure out
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  SPEAKER_00: how to do that.
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  And I mean,
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  if you'd asked me 10 years ago when I'd be doing videos on
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  TikTok,
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  I was
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  SPEAKER_00: Definitely would have said no,
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  SPEAKER_00: but kind of saw that it was an opportunity and made the best of it.
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  SPEAKER_00: I didn't love doing it at first, but I thought it was important.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then I kind of grew to like it, you know, once you kind of
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  SPEAKER_00: You know,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of people think that at the surface level,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's just kind of a lot of unserious people in there.
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  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, I learned pretty quick that wasn't true.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I thought at first you have to be like a serious attorney.
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  Like you see a lot of attorneys doing those serious videos and
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  they're just boring to make.
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  SPEAKER_00: And they're boring.
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  SPEAKER_00: If they're boring to make, they're boring to watch.
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  SPEAKER_00: And no one wants to get on their phone and be bored.
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  SPEAKER_00: The whole reason most of them are on there.
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  SPEAKER_00: are to be entertained to some extent.
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  I don't ever really want to be silly on there,
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  but I just show my personality.
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  SPEAKER_00: I highlight a lot of stuff I see around town that I think people might be
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  SPEAKER_00: interested in and just try to do good.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think that social media is similar to networking in person.
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  And if you're a good networker in person,
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  you're usually trying to give more than you receive.
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  SPEAKER_00: That should be your attempt.
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  And then you'll get some stuff down the road if you do that the
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  correct way.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I just try to highlight other people on my social media more.
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  SPEAKER_00: People on my team,
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  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
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  SPEAKER_00: I talk about ourselves some,
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  but probably less than 10% of my videos are talking about being
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  an attorney because
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  SPEAKER_00: there's only so much to say.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you can just keep repeating the same uninsured motorist.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, make sure you have this on your policies.
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  SPEAKER_00: This gets old.
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  SPEAKER_00: You got to talk about something else.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And in my experience,
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  SPEAKER_01: attorneys get kind of scared because it's like,
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  SPEAKER_01: oh,
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  SPEAKER_01: well,
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  we don't want to talk about that because we don't want to
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  attract that kind of
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  SPEAKER_01: case.
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  SPEAKER_01: But it's kind of missing the point.
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  You know,
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  people are on the internet to be entertained,
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  not,
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  you know,
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  be educated.
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  SPEAKER_01: Even though education feels like a safer route.
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  And I think that's why a lot of people try to take that safer
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  route and make like FAQ videos.
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  SPEAKER_01: So just for my curiosity, cause I'm in the same boat you are.
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  SPEAKER_01: I graduated college late.
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  SPEAKER_01: Technically I was like 27.
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  And well,
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  I'll ask you before I explain myself,
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  but do you feel like that held you back at all?
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  Or did you like experience like any obstacles because you,
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  you graduated a little bit older?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I used to think it held me back a lot.
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  SPEAKER_00: And obviously,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: biology,
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  SPEAKER_00: I was biologically older than everyone that was pretty much in my class.
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  Definitely when I entered Big Law Library,
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  it was pretty much straight through school.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I think...
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  SPEAKER_00: Part of that was probably just in my brain.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, we have self-doubt maybe.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I was like seven years older than most of the people graduating.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I think once we got out and we got licensed,
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  SPEAKER_00: I started catching up faster to people who were my,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: real age.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's partly because,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: a lot of people want a lawyer that maybe,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: everyone thinks the lawyer that's got greater,
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  SPEAKER_00: that's been a lawyer 40 years is good.
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  SPEAKER_00: And part of it's he or she's been a lawyer for 40 years.
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  SPEAKER_00: But part of that's it has been alive for 40 more years,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think,
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  SPEAKER_00: really,
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  SPEAKER_00: the more I've thought about it.
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  you know part of an older lawyer knows a lot because they've
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  been a lawyer a long
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  time but a lot of being a lawyer is not just the law it's just
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  being you know wise
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  from life experience so while i had only been a lawyer one or
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  two years you know i
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  had a kid i had a house i don't you know i've been married i've
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  done a lot of
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  things that people who were 24 25 had not so i think i got
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  clients to hire me
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  SPEAKER_00: quicker than some of my people i graduated with
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  SPEAKER_00: And it makes sense.
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  SPEAKER_00: I was older.
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  SPEAKER_00: I looked older.
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  SPEAKER_00: I sounded older.
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  Yeah,
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  I had more in common with someone who was 50 years old at 35
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  than maybe a 25 year old did.
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  So I kind of I do think I my career took off a little bit
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  quicker than some of the
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  SPEAKER_00: people I graduated law school with.
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  SPEAKER_00: And now I think at this point.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm 42, about to be 43.
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  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I've caught most people my age and,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I don't really think about it that much anymore,
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  SPEAKER_00: but yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And also I think I had a chip on my shoulder.
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  I felt like I was behind,
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  so I was always running faster than I would have otherwise.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think that probably helps when I try to keep,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: that little chip on my shoulder that,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: I need to go a little faster to catch up.
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  SPEAKER_00: Can't be bad to try and always be trying a little harder.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's a funny thing about having a chip on your shoulder.
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  SPEAKER_01: It can motivate you and it can mess with your mindset,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: and put you in a bound headspace.
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  SPEAKER_01: So you got to pick a lane there.
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  SPEAKER_01: And,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: I'll have to say I agree because I did graduate technically older,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: than my peers.
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  SPEAKER_01: And initially it was like a mental thing for me.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like I didn't want people to know.
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  SPEAKER_01: I didn't want to emphasize that.
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  SPEAKER_01: But like looking back, like I don't think anyone cared but me.
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  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it's just a mindset thing.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like often our own limitations don't hold us back.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's that we think, I guess, that they hold us back.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, some of it's real.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, now I was kind of brave as a kid.
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  SPEAKER_00: Some of those things are real and it didn't make, it was a hurdle.
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  But eventually it can be like a strength if you get to the
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  point of the hill,
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  SPEAKER_00: like going up the hill,
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  SPEAKER_00: you can doubt yourself.
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  And it is hard if you break or your parents,
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  you know,
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  you got a weird family life,
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  whatever.
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  SPEAKER_00: But once you get to believing in yourself, it kind of becomes a strength.
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  SPEAKER_00: It gives me things to talk about.
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  SPEAKER_00: I've been through a lot of stuff,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm in the hospital right now,
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  SPEAKER_00: my daughter,
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  SPEAKER_00: nothing too serious.
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  But like me and my wife have dealt with a lot of stuff with a
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  child that has
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  SPEAKER_00: serious health problems.
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  Those seven years,
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  all during my twenties,
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  I didn't get through undergrad until I was 29.
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  So all during those years,
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  I worked in factories,
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  I worked all sorts of jobs.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now it gives me things to talk about.
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  So when I'm trying to sign up a big case or something's
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  thinking about hiring me
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  and they work in a factory and I can talk about working on a
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  machine and I got a
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  SPEAKER_00: burn on my arm,
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  SPEAKER_00: working in New Miami at the plant that everybody knows,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: that
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  SPEAKER_00: That's something other lawyers can't talk about.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I think it gives me an advantage in a way,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: so everything,
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  SPEAKER_00: there's two sides of every coin.
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  SPEAKER_00: Did it hold me back and I got started slower?
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  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
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  Kind of wish I could have been running this firm for 15 years
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  instead of eight,
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  SPEAKER_00: where would I be?
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  SPEAKER_00: But who knows?
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  SPEAKER_00: It might've been worse.
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  SPEAKER_01: And in general, we underestimate the importance of life experience.
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  Cause I remember just starting out in my marketing career,
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  I was like every other marketer.
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  I thought I knew everything and even knew better than the
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  people who were trying to
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  SPEAKER_01: teach me marketing.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I was so wrong, you know, just absolutely so wrong.
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  SPEAKER_01: And there's some things you can't teach.
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  SPEAKER_01: There are some things you learn, you know, by doing by seeing it.
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  And that experience gives you the confidence to,
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  you know,
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  talk to people and push back.
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  And also,
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  like you said,
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  gives you stories to tell,
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  which is really excellent.
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  So mostly for my curiosity,
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  I'm honestly just really curious about your TikTok habits.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I see your videos all the time,
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  SPEAKER_01: often like POV,
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  SPEAKER_01: we're watching your wife cook or something happen around the house.
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  SPEAKER_01: Very rarely is it like you and frame talking.
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  SPEAKER_01: Do you just like are you just walking around the house and you're like,
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  SPEAKER_01: Oh,
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to record this?
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  SPEAKER_01: Or have you developed an instinct for that?
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  SPEAKER_01: Do you plan it?
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  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do you how do you create that?
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  SPEAKER_00: Not very much as planned for sure.
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  I do think you get an instinct for what works over time and we
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  don't really plan
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  SPEAKER_00: it,
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  SPEAKER_00: but I think it's important to have like,
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  SPEAKER_00: in my brain,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think of like,
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  SPEAKER_00: I got segments or series that I,
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  SPEAKER_00: that I run and it's not planned,
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  SPEAKER_00: but like sometimes I'm going to pull out and talk to the camera.
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  If I think of something about the law or something's happened
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  in the firm,
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  that's one.
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  SPEAKER_00: If I'm out and about heading to court or heading to network and think,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I see a pretty building I never seen before that's old,
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  SPEAKER_00: where I stop in a small town restaurant,
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  SPEAKER_00: that's always a series I could talk about.
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  SPEAKER_00: local highlights.
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  SPEAKER_00: Then I have where I highlight the businesses.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then I have the thing where I talk to my wife.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I know if I haven't posted any of the other ones on any given day,
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  SPEAKER_00: I always have the fallback of when I go home,
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  SPEAKER_00: I can just talk to my wife.
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  SPEAKER_00: Usually she's cooking something.
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  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes she's not.
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  If she's not,
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  I'll just start talking to her and whatever her hands are
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  doing.
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  SPEAKER_00: She's like, I'm not cooking crap for you today.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we're getting peanut butter and jelly sandwich.
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  SPEAKER_00: That could be it.
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  SPEAKER_00: Usually she's cooking something and I can talk about what she's cooking.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we've been together since we were 18.
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  SPEAKER_00: So a long time.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we have a good banner back and forth.
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  SPEAKER_00: She's really funny too.
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  If I get her going,
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  like on her own,
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  she really won't get out of her shell much.
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  But if I start like giving her a little bit of crap or make fun
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  of her a little
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  SPEAKER_00: bit,
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  SPEAKER_00: she'll start being kind of funny too.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think I always know I had that as content and we don't have to plan.
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  SPEAKER_00: I can just, whatever it is, it is.
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  SPEAKER_00: Some are better than others, but that's fine.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, and a lot of people are scared of lawyers.
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  SPEAKER_00: So it shows me in a different light.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm just a regular person.
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  SPEAKER_00: My wife gives me hell like the next guy, you know, I'm not.
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  SPEAKER_00: Some big, tough lawyer that's telling everyone what to do.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it gives you content.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, you don't have to talk about being a lawyer all the time.
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  SPEAKER_00: My name on the TikTok is the hometown lawyer.
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  SPEAKER_00: So they know I'm a lawyer.
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't have to talk about it all the time.
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  And I like being a lawyer,
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  but I don't want to talk about it all the time.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's your job.
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  SPEAKER_00: I do like it.
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  SPEAKER_00: As an attorney,
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  you're already thinking about your firm and being a business
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  owner or clients all
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  SPEAKER_00: the time anyway.
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  SPEAKER_00: All my content doesn't have to be like that.
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  But I do try to talk about the stuff we do sometimes because it
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  is important to educate people.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I think if I start off trying to teach you things,
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  SPEAKER_00: the first time you see me,
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  SPEAKER_00: you don't even know me,
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  SPEAKER_00: you don't like me,
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  SPEAKER_00: you don't trust me,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's like you're more likely,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: to shut down.
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  If you've watched me just be a normal guy in your neighborhood
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  or around your town
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  SPEAKER_00: for a year,
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  SPEAKER_00: then when I tell you you might want to check about uninsured motor,
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  SPEAKER_00: she might be more likely to actually listen to me.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's the point of education, kind of.
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  SPEAKER_00: So, like, you know, everybody's got their own style, I think.
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  I don't plan it much,
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  but I do plan that I'm going to post something every day.
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  And I do have a videographer that will shoot maybe like 10 or
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  20 in one session
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  SPEAKER_00: when I'm talking about being a lawyer.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then we'll post those periodically.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I only need him like once a month to do those.
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  SPEAKER_00: So there's a strategy that I'm going to create a lot of content,
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  SPEAKER_00: but it's not like I definitely don't have a monthly.
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  Anytime I've talked to someone,
• 11:28
  they're telling me to do a monthly content plan.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't like that.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure it works for some people better than nothing.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: I just don't want to do that personally.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: I feel restricted.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: And every day I'm not in the same mood,
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: so if we've planned that Friday,
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to talk about XYZ and I don't feel like doing it that day.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: I just feel like talking about a mural I saw,
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's more,
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: that's what I like doing.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you got to pick what works for you.
• 11:51
  Some people like just the talking head and I see that they do
• 11:54
  tons of that.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it is not what I want to do all the time.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 11:59
  I always tell people that the business owner is the most
• 12:02
  effective at promoting the
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: business.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're a business owner and you're a content creator,
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: which you solidly fall into that category,
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: the business owner doesn't need a content plan.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: The content plan is for your marketing team.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 12:15
  they're the ones who need to be planning ahead because they
• 12:17
  don't have the
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: privilege you do of being the star,
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: basically you're the star of the show.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: So you have a ton of,
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: I will still say like,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: if you're,
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: if you're a marketing team member or you're managing a marketing team,
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: you absolutely do need a content plan.
• 12:34
  But,
• 12:34
  you know,
• 12:34
  creators don't because it's really intuitive and you have to be
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: passionate about the topic.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's best to like,
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: just record the video,
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: write the article when you're,
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: when you're on fire about it,
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: because that's when you're going to get the best work.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think so.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it just has to be real.
• 12:55
  I mean,
• 12:55
  I think people really can tell when it's contrived or it's all
• 12:58
  super planned out.
• 12:59
  And that doesn't necessarily mean it won't work because doing
• 13:01
  anything is better than nothing.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: Most people don't do anything.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: so if you do some contrived videos that are like super planned out,
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: that's better than what most people are doing.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's fine.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I did that early on,
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: but you do kind of get,
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: once you get a following and people are following you,
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: they like you interact with them.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big part.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: People don't talk about enough is
• 13:20
  interacting with other people's content everyone worries about
• 13:22
  what they're going
• 13:23
  to post everyone worries about when they're going to post how
• 13:26
  they're going to edit
• 13:27
  their video i think you should spend a good chunk of your time
• 13:30
  online commenting on
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: other people's stuff watching other people's stuff
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Cause that's like networking.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and I talked about that.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think you were based,
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: but like if everything you always cared about in real life,
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: networking was the stories you're going to tell as Tiffany,
• 13:43
  and you never want to listen to anyone else's stories or help
• 13:45
  anyone else or
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: support their joke or whatever it is like their content.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's not going to,
• 13:51
  you're not going to be a very good in person networker because
• 13:53
  everyone knows
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: somebody like that.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: These are the people, people don't like that much.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's give and take.
• 13:58
  And I think there are people I see online that are always
• 14:01
  supporting other people's content.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I see them online all the time.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I have a positive vibe with them because I see them doing that.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't even remember their content all that much.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there's a strategy of just being a supporter a lot.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: So if you have a little following,
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: and people are commenting on your stuff,
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: shame on you if you don't interact with them sometimes.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's where the magic really happens.
• 14:21
  I think people spend way too much worrying about what they're
• 14:24
  going to post and not
• 14:25
  enough about how they're going to interact and spend time with
• 14:28
  the people who
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: comment and in other people's videos.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: And you're absolutely right.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: When I hit that mindset shift,
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: because I was guilty of that,
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: I was always posting,
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: never commenting.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: My social media was all me, me, me, me, me.
• 14:42
  And then like a year,
• 14:43
  I guess,
• 14:44
  almost two years ago,
• 14:45
  I was like,
• 14:46
  oh,
• 14:46
  I'm not a celebrity.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody cares.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, nobody cares about me.
• 14:50
  That's when I started spending more time commenting on other
• 14:52
  people's comment
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: across all platforms.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it benefited me personally,
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: because people see when you comment,
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: people are exposed to you there.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it's an effective way just to expand and talk and reach more people.
• 15:08
  And most of my audience probably won't know who this guy is,
• 15:11
  but his name is Meat Canyon.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: His YouTube channel name is Papa Meat or Meat Canyon.
• 15:16
  He did a video about LinkedIn and making fun of LinkedIn and
• 15:20
  how people using LinkedIn.
• 15:22
  And it's really cutting for people like us who post on LinkedIn
• 15:25
  regularly.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's worth a watch because like,
• 15:29
  It was jarring for me to see an outsider analyze how
• 15:33
  egotistical and self-centered
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: we can be on these platforms.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it made me think like, oh, yeah.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think people don't do it on purpose.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think people know in real life in a networking event,
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: it's give and take more than they do on social media.
• 15:45
  And it's mostly because they're so self-conscious on social
• 15:47
  media,
• 15:48
  what they're going to pose.
• 15:49
  So it's not like self-centeredness in the way we would think of
• 15:52
  it as a negative.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's more just self-consciousness and they're so scared.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: They're going to sound stupid.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: So they're always worried about that.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where it comes from.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: I was like that too.
• 16:01
  Definitely on LinkedIn,
• 16:02
  like I'm more self-conscious on there than I am in videos.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: Just, you know, I went to public school.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't pay attention to it when I was there.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: So they were probably teaching me fine, but I'm not always the...
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: the most polished for an attorney as a writer,
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: like just naturally,
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: like I really have to like concentrate to write,
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: properly,
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: which I can do,
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: but it's not just naturally like a big,
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: fluid,
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: perfect thing,
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: like some people I know can.
• 16:24
  And so I have to really take time and,
• 16:26
  or I'll make a stupid mistake or typo like every time.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not as comfortable on that platform as I am.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: I always feel like I'm pretty,
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: personable and good at BSing around and talking with people.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not as self-conscious on video.
• 16:39
  But with over time,
• 16:40
  with either one,
• 16:41
  you get more comfortable and then you're more comfortable.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: People say like, I see people like, you're so good.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, I don't really feel like I'm that good at them.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: I just do them and I don't care if it's great or perfect or not.
• 16:50
  And then people feel you're more comfortable and then you kind
• 16:52
  of get the ball rolling.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then you're not a self-conscious and you let your guard down more.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then people,
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:58
  it like expands like what you're able to do once you get a
• 17:01
  little more confident.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think that the good thing about marketing is,
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: is that if your marketing is bad,
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: nobody will see it no matter how much you try to promote it.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think people have it in their heads.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, I don't want to put something out there.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's not perfect.
• 17:15
  Cause everyone will see it's not perfect,
• 17:17
  but that's not how marketing works.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: If it's not good, nobody's going to see it.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're just better off making stuff until you,
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: figure out what people want to see.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think perfect,
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: for me,
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of most of my clients are regular everyday people.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like a lot of them didn't go to college.
• 17:35
  Some of them,
• 17:35
  a lot of them didn't go to high school,
• 17:36
  get all the way through high school.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: They're not.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: Looking through my stuff with like a fine tooth comb,
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: like they're more like,
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: does this guy seem like someone who's going to talk down to me?
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: Does this guy seem like somebody I can trust?
• 17:48
  Oh,
• 17:48
  he's actually,
• 17:49
  he just highlighted the little town where my grandma lived.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like that's what they're looking at for me.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're not seeing if I said too many times.
• 17:56
  Anytime I do a video for people,
• 17:58
  cause we go do these business highlights.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone's always so worried about how many times they say it.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: And most people don't care.
• 18:04
  I mean,
• 18:04
  there might be some of the cares,
• 18:06
  but they're not going to like you anyway.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: Most people don't.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's all our head.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and the funniest thing is we do these videos for other people.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: We've done like 300 of them, every one of them.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: And most of these people are not content creators.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: They haven't done videos.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Every single one of them almost fail always feels like they did awful.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: And every single one of them turns out fine.
• 18:26
  As an objective person,
• 18:27
  they're always surprised how good they look,
• 18:29
  like how good they sound.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: Once you see it produced, it's better.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: When you're doing it, it feels bad.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: Usually if I watch it later, it's not as bad as you feel.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's just weird.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not for everybody.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't like writing big, long essays all the time.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not going to write like a marketing channel.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to write big, long articles for the ADA.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: It just, I could do it, but I don't want to.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not going to, you know, I'd rather do videos and networking.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: So you got to pick your lane.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think sometimes.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then that's really good advice.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you're comfortable on video, do video.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: If you're comfortable writing, do long form articles.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like all of that is media is still on the table and it's still valid.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's just what you're passionate about.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're passionate about it, the results will be better.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I was,
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: I was rolling my eyes about,
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: not rolling my eyes,
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: but cringing,
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: I guess,
• 19:17
  because last week my husband and I were on our way to dinner
• 19:19
  and I was listening to
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: one of my podcasts.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: And like, every time I said one of my hedge words, I was like,
• 19:26
  mentally like counting it and i i just hate it i hate hearing
• 19:30
  it but you're right
• 19:31
  like if you're not used to doing podcasts i've done this
• 19:35
  podcast you're actually i
• 19:37
  think my 76th episode 75 was just released and some people come
• 19:43
  on the show it's
• 19:43
  their first podcast ever and they're really nervous and i i
• 19:46
  tell them like you will
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: be surprised when when the episode comes out
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: You will listen to it and think I sound smarter than I thought I did.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: And nobody's told me I've been wrong since I've said that to people.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it's, it's just the way it is.
• 20:00
  I don't think we have the mental brain power to analyze
• 20:03
  ourselves as we speak and
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: be accurate about it.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 20:09
  I remember in undergrad and I worked and I went to school at
• 20:11
  night and I took one
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: class a semester.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I had my pick, you know, I didn't have to take that many.
• 20:15
  So I kept putting off public speaking,
• 20:17
  which I had to take because I didn't want to.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: No one wanted to.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then I finally had to take it.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: And they made us do 15 minutes speech up in front of the class.
• 20:24
  Now that just seems like eternity when you're 23 or 24,
• 20:27
  don't have much confidence.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I went up there and the professor taped us, which has made it worse.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: And this was like, it wasn't on a phone or TikTok.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: It was like, I'll be, it was a VHS.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: It might've been a DVD.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, but she taped it.
• 20:38
  And then I went up there and I felt like I was like stutter and
• 20:41
  like an idiot.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then.
• 20:44
  she gave us the video and we had to take it home as part of the
• 20:46
  project and watch
• 20:47
  ourselves so i remember taking home with my wife like two days
• 20:49
  later like you want
• 20:50
  to watch something really bad and i put it in and we watched it
• 20:53
  and she was like
• 20:53
  that's pretty good and i was like you know like that road
• 20:55
  wasn't that bad you know
• 20:56
  like the little flub up was like this much but it felt like it
• 20:59
  was like a 30 second
• 21:00
  stammer and it wasn't and ever since then i just kind of knew
• 21:04
  what you said like we
• 21:05
  can't really judge ourselves and most people aren't listening
• 21:08
  and the other thing
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: is okay some people do sound better than others you know for sure
• 21:11
  Sure,
• 21:11
  some people are very eloquent and smooth and some people do get
• 21:14
  a little more nervous.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: But if you are the nervous type, guess what?
• 21:18
  You still will make connections with people because other
• 21:21
  people watching it who
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: are scared to be on videos may
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: feel connected with you.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like at least you did it and you will get better.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just like anything else.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like you'll get better if you do it more, you'll get more comfortable.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're not,
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: not everybody's a politician,
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: that's gonna be like perfectly smooth,
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: like Obama or whatever,
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: like that's not everyone.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Most people are not that good.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: And the funniest thing is the videos I do for other people,
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Some of the people that are the most rough around the edges,
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: I just did post him on a few weeks ago as an old farmer guy.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: He's never done a video.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: You can tell just by looking at him, this is not a TikTok type of guy.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: That video did great because it got people's attention.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like this guy, this old guy is a farmer and he sounds like a farmer.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: He looks like a farmer.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: People like that.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: So people just got to get out of our own head sometimes.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I was guilty of that early on too.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: I doubted myself about all sorts of stuff.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: And most of it was just in my head,
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:12
  and it's sad because I think some people go through their whole
• 22:15
  life that way.
• 22:17
  One of the first times I spoke on stage,
• 22:20
  I came off stage and it was like having a blackout.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: I did not remember what happened.
• 22:25
  And I walked up to somebody I worked with and I said,
• 22:27
  was it,
• 22:28
  was it good?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: I like, I don't even remember.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, it was great.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: It was so great.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it was an okay talk.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: People liked it, but I had no idea.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's weird how you just really can't sometimes judge yourself.
• 22:39
  You have to be able to sit and watch yourself on video,
• 22:43
  which I've done a lot at this point.
• 22:45
  And from that,
• 22:46
  you can learn how to improve,
• 22:48
  but you have to be able to sit with it.
• 22:50
  You have to be able to sit and watch a video of yourself
• 22:52
  talking and tolerate it.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that's hard.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's really hard.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:56
  And I think that's what this professor I had years ago,
• 22:59
  almost 20 years ago,
• 22:59
  knew.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why she made us do it.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it did.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: I remember that day.
• 23:03
  I've had more confidence public speaking ever since that day,
• 23:05
  because I thought I was awful.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, yeah, it wasn't great, but it wasn't really bad.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it wasn't that bad.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Not near as bad as I thought.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: I just kind of hopefully just carry that on.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes you're going to screw up.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: the thing is like,
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: if someone gets up and gives a talk and I can tell they're nervous,
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: do you think negatively of them?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: I don't,
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: I might say they're not the greatest public speaker right now,
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: but I don't think negatively about them,
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: about whatever their profession is.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm hiring you to do digital marketing, I want you to be good at that.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of assume you're probably not the greatest speech giver.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: it doesn't really make sense for you to be,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: you like computers and,
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: nerding out on code or whatever,
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: like it,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: Lawyers kind of should be if you're a trial lawyer, I guess.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, but most lawyers aren't even that.
• 23:46
  So if you're a contract lawyer and you're kind of nervous on
• 23:49
  the big stage,
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't even think that you're a worse contract lawyer.
• 23:52
  You know,
• 23:52
  so I think it's mostly like we said,
• 23:54
  it's just we try to hold ourselves back.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: And if you screw up, it's fine.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Other people in the crowd have screwed up worse.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: And you'll screw up something else again.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: like as long as you're doing something that's not embarrassing,
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: on videos,
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: like keep your credibility,
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: keep your honest,
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: keep your integrity.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: Don't lie.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: Things like that.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's the only thing I would ever hold against someone,
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: not sounding nervous or looking nervous.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: I just wouldn't.
• 24:16
  And then you touched on something else with a farmer who did a
• 24:19
  video with you guys.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: But authenticity wins out on social media.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: And when you think about it,
• 24:24
  so much what we see when we scroll through TikTok and Instagram
• 24:27
  is staged,
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: fabricated AI.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: But people really have an eye for authenticity.
• 24:36
  and so if you present that people actually really do care about
• 24:40
  what an old farmer
• 24:41
  has to say probably when they spent the last like 25 minutes
• 24:44
  being a bunch of bs
• 24:46
  right yeah i think it's true yeah i don't have anything more to
• 24:50
  say except you know
• 24:51
  just be authentic and i mean you're doing a great job of it you
• 24:54
  guys do fantastic
• 24:55
  work with your content thank you we're always trying to make it
• 24:58
  better i mean
• 24:59
  i'm usually trying to come up with a new series every year
• 25:01
  because you know but
• 25:02
  it's kind of a shiny object so this year i did and i'm just
• 25:05
  going to double down on
• 25:06
  what we had been doing and do more of them trying to do one of
• 25:09
  those business
• 25:09
  highlights for someone every single day of the year which is a
• 25:11
  lot just setting
• 25:12
  them all up a lot but we're trying you know people seem to like
• 25:15
  it it's hard to
• 25:16
  track all the time like how much it helps you or how much it
• 25:19
  doesn't but i know a
• 25:20
  lot of people see it and they see us in like a light that we're
• 25:24
  getting back to the
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: community and i think
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's all you can do to try to beat some of the bigger firms.
• 25:28
  I mean,
• 25:28
  I don't have $100 million to spend on TD all over the Midwest
• 25:32
  or whatever.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: You got to do what you can afford and what you think.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I enjoy doing it.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: you got to pick something you kind of like doing,
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 25:39
  in life where you're not going to do it very long or you're
• 25:41
  going to hate your
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: life,
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: so.
• 25:44
  You might as well have fun doing it because I do see a lot of
• 25:48
  law firms and
• 25:49
  attorneys try to force themselves into like a formula for
• 25:53
  making content because
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Google just has to see it this way.
• 25:56
  And it's like,
• 25:56
  you know,
• 25:57
  why can't we just talk about making good content?
• 25:59
  You know,
• 26:00
  why can't we just talk about what would be entertaining or fun
• 26:03
  to read?
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:05
  trying to push people in that direction with the law firms I
• 26:08
  coach and the people
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: that I coach on marketing.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Don't worry about formulaic nonsense.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Just make a good article.
• 26:15
  You don't have to copy someone,
• 26:17
  but that's hard to do when you're not used to making content.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it's scary.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't, you know, immune to that.
• 26:23
  When I started doing videos,
• 26:24
  I was conscious like,
• 26:25
  oh,
• 26:25
  what are other attorneys going to think?
• 26:27
  What are the older judges going to think,
• 26:29
  you know,
• 26:29
  conservative counties like practicing?
• 26:32
  Are they going to think,
• 26:32
  you know,
• 26:33
  like I wasn't on there dancing and acting a fool.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: I don't do that.
• 26:35
  But to them,
• 26:36
  you know,
• 26:37
  maybe they think you need to be super serious all the time.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: But I really have,
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure there's some people hate it,
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: but I've had judges and bails and stuff whisper to me,
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: we like your content.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: We went and ate tacos at that place you highlighted.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: So like, I haven't gotten a lot of negative
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Feedback, really.
• 26:50
  I'm sure there's a few people that don't like it,
• 26:52
  but not everyone's going to hire you anyway.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: You got to be yourself and the people that are going to like you're,
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: they're going to be the good clients anyway.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: The clients that I get off social media are usually the best ones.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: My intake team don't have to make a sale on them.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: They already chose us.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: They want us to help them.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: They're the better clients.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's the absolute benefit of referral marketing,
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: organic marketing,
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: because when you build it up the right way,
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: then it
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: people connect with you, like,
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: for real, and they're not going to make another choice.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: They know you.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: They're already locked in.
• 27:28
  And that's what I love about what you all do and your videos on
• 27:31
  TikTok and some of
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: the stuff that I see you guys create.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Very authentic.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a lesson,
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like,
• 27:36
  for a lot of the other law firms who are just trying to game
• 27:40
  their way through
• 27:41
  Google or try to figure out how to get more engagement on their
• 27:44
  LinkedIn content,
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: which I do too.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: We're nearing the end of the recording time.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: But there was one question I kept
• 27:52
  Kind of dinging around in my head as I was thinking about what
• 27:55
  we're recording today.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I've lost it.
• 27:58
  Wheel,
• 27:59
  is there something that you wanted to talk about that we didn't
• 28:02
  cover today?
• 28:02
  Because we stayed pretty much on social media and content,
• 28:05
  which you guys are great at.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to pigeonhole you.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, we do everything else.
• 28:10
  I mean,
• 28:10
  I'm not on TV or radio,
• 28:11
  like mass radio,
• 28:12
  but we do all the SEO on the local stuff.
• 28:14
  And that's kind of,
• 28:15
  probably as you guys know,
• 28:16
  that's kind of been in big flux lately.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: even the last couple of months,
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen some changes,
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: not all for the better,
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: but that's why I like social media so much.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Cause it's like,
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: if you have a following,
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: even if it's on multiple platforms,
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: you got an email list,
• 28:27
  that's the only thing you can kind of own is your brand and
• 28:29
  your personality.
• 28:30
  And they can always change the stuff online and you're going to
• 28:33
  have to be at the
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: you know, the whims of Google when I didn't love that.
• 28:37
  So I started years ago putting more and more money in just
• 28:40
  building a brand,
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: but I still do all the Google stuff and LSA.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think that stuff works too, obviously.
• 28:45
  I just say anyone out there that is scared to get online,
• 28:48
  like you can reach out to me.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to like charge you, you know, or anything.
• 28:52
  I've done it with plenty of people and I've had a few people
• 28:54
  I've talked to and
• 28:54
  they're doing a pretty good job when I think I'll help you and
• 28:56
  tell you kind of
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: find your voice.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think part of it's just talking with someone
• 29:01
  having them tell you it'll be okay and maybe supporting along
• 29:04
  the way give me some
• 29:05
  ideas there are some strategies that help you know but i think
• 29:08
  people worry way
• 29:09
  more about like what they're going to hashtag and how they're
• 29:11
  going to add their
• 29:11
  video then they need to like i don't do hardly i don't edit
• 29:14
  anything hardly my
• 29:15
  video guy does for the business people when i'm on the phone i
• 29:18
  don't edit anything
• 29:18
  i just talk and post it and if it looks crappy it looks crappy
• 29:21
  i'm a lawyer not a
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: video editor anyway like what would they expect you know
• 29:25
  I aspire to have a video editor the way you have a video editor
• 29:28
  because there's
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: just so much that I want to record.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Daniela does a great job,
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: but I am kind of jealous that you mentioned the email list,
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: which reminded me what my question was.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: I have to get it out.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Do you funnel your social media contacts?
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think you basically said that you work on your list building,
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: but do you actively try to get people off like
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: TikTok, Instagram, LinkedIn onto your mailing list?
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: Or is it just happened incidentally?
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: Not as much as I should.
• 29:56
  I mean,
• 29:57
  I've kind of blew up on TikTok before I wouldn't have expected
• 30:01
  it.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: And before I knew I got like 80 something thousand people on there.
• 30:03
  So now it's like,
• 30:04
  well,
• 30:04
  I probably should try to get some of these people on the email
• 30:07
  list.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I have like almost 90,000 followers on TikTok.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think I got...
• 30:12
  8,000 or something on my email list,
• 30:14
  which ain't bad,
• 30:14
  but not all of them for sure.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's, I mean, it's not nothing.
• 30:17
  I think I,
• 30:18
  then I mail a paper newsletter to about 2,000 old clients and
• 30:22
  contacts.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: So doing decent, but we could have been better if I started earlier.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: I only started the paper newsletter within the last year.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: I've learned from where you got from,
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: Ben and Brian and him,
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: I know they're big on that and some other people I follow up.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: At first, I didn't have that many clients to reach out to.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I was just always about how do I grow, grow, grow.
• 30:38
  And then before I realized,
• 30:40
  I was like,
• 30:40
  I actually do have a lot of clients now.
• 30:42
  I mean,
• 30:42
  before you know it,
• 30:43
  it's never too early to start building that list.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I was mostly on TikTok.
• 30:47
  I have started doing more on Facebook and Instagram and other
• 30:50
  platforms just
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: because I got worried,
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: is it going to get banned?
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, I think it's not good to have all your eggs in one basket.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think now seems like it's safe, but I should probably...
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: tell them to go on my thing.
• 31:03
  But it's also kind of against my normal vibe on there is like
• 31:06
  just talking and not selling it.
• 31:07
  But at the end,
• 31:08
  I'm always like,
• 31:09
  like,
• 31:09
  and subscribe and go to my email list.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I just don't feel like me, you know, and it just does.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I probably could put in my bio, maybe.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: there's ways to get around it,
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: but I have not done a great job at that,
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't think.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and that's the trick.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: that's what influencers do,
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: health coaches,
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: fitness coaches,
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: all the people who sell from social media.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll be honest with you,
• 31:31
  I haven't quite figured out a seamless way for personal injury
• 31:34
  attorneys to do it.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you're practically the only,
• 31:37
  you're the only TikTok personal injury attorney who's doing
• 31:40
  really well at it.
• 31:41
  So it's a category of a small number of attorneys actually
• 31:46
  doing social media and
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: needing to try to leverage it in that way.
• 31:49
  yeah well thanks so much josh for being on the show and talking
• 31:53
  with us about
• 31:54
  content and social media where do you want people to look you
• 31:57
  up and follow you
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I need to get them on my email list.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: Sounds like, but yeah, we'll work on that later.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you look me up in the hometownlawyers.com, that's our website.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: We've got a few offices in Southwest Ohio,
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: and then on TikTok,
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: Facebook,
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: and Instagram,
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the hometown lawyer with no S.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: The website has an S because there's multiple of us,
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: YouTube as well.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: And in Facebook, it's Josh Hodges.
• 32:17
  I got a hometown lawyer,
• 32:18
  Facebook,
• 32:18
  and then I just have one under my name.
• 32:20
  and reach out i'd like to talk to you i'm on linkedin as well
• 32:23
  just under my name
• 32:24
  josh hodge is there trying to be all over and i'm always trying
• 32:27
  to you know talk to
• 32:28
  more people on these you know it's interesting to see what
• 32:31
  other people are doing
• 32:31
  every week i learn something from someone else doing you know
• 32:34
  some sort of
• 32:35
  marketing tactic that i just never thought of that's why i like
• 32:37
  marketing and
• 32:38
  running business so there's a lot of smart people in our space
• 32:41
  i think a lot of
• 32:41
  people actually share more than you know than people think they
• 32:44
  think lawyers are
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: so greedy but never really
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: Felt like that.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: And there might be a handful,
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: but most lawyers,
• 32:49
  anytime I've reached out to a lawyer that I feel like spur
• 32:51
  their head than me,
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: they've almost always been gracious and helped me.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm definitely willing to help out anybody if you reach out to me.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: If I don't get back to you, I just missed it.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: So hit me up on TikTok or somewhere like that.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: We'll talk.
• 33:04
  I'm waiting for people to figure out that this podcast is a way
• 33:07
  for me to needle my
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: guests for marketing ideas that I can use.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: But so far, nobody's called me out on it.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe now they will.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: I've let the cat out of the bag.
• 33:16
  Well,
• 33:16
  thanks so much again,
• 33:17
  Josh,
• 33:17
  and for being on the show and for everyone else.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see you next week.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.