Latest / Real Estate for Real Life / Episode 21 • The Hiring Mistakes That Can Cost Your Business Everything with Jen Scully & Meg O'Leary

Transcript

Episode 21 • The Hiring Mistakes That Can Cost Your Business Everything with Jen Scully & Meg O'Leary · Real Estate for Real Life

0:00
On Real Estate for Real Life podcasts, we sit down with
0:02
standout business leaders to unpack what's actually working.
0:06
How they scale, lead teams, win clients and build businesses
0:10
that last. We're your hosts.
0:13
I'm Courtney Gauchman. And I'm Ryan Wilson.
0:15
Thanks for tuning in. We're here today with Jen and
0:18
Meg, cofounders of Scully and O'Leary.
0:21
And after careers in government and employment law, they started
0:25
their own farm. Now they help employers and
0:28
employees navigate hiring, workplace issues, leave planning
0:33
and benefits. Hi, guys.
0:35
Welcome. Thank you so much for having us.
0:37
Thank you for joining us. Yeah, we're pumped to have you
0:39
guys for many, many years and excited to sit down and chat
0:42
with you about everything. Definitely.
0:43
So guys, you had super successful careers, why did you
0:47
decide to start your own farm? You know, that's a good
0:49
question, Ryan. Not something that we had
0:54
planned for, that's for sure. But in in situations where you
0:57
have like a health issue, you often don't see that coming.
1:00
And so I navigated an unexpected injury in childbirth about five
1:05
years ago. And Meg had been struggling with
1:08
a diagnosis of endometriosis that was delayed and she was
1:11
having a hard time getting the services that she needed.
1:13
And we both found ourselves kind of in this place where we as
1:16
advocates and people who had been trained to kind of find a
1:19
solution, look at the big picture, frame it up, make
1:23
decisions and and kind of solve the problem.
1:26
We were really stuck in figuring out how to get the care that we
1:29
needed. And as our treatment started to
1:33
roll around the same time you were getting well, we recognize
1:36
that there was a real gap in the employment and workplace space
1:39
with both business owners and individuals in dealing with
1:42
employment leave and benefits and advocacy in the medical
1:45
setting. So that's kind of what prompted
1:47
us to to realize the service was needed.
1:50
And then Meg and I both looked at each other and said like,
1:53
should we do it together? And that felt like a scary but
1:57
also exciting, I don't know, choice to make.
2:00
And we decided to just kind of jump in, even though there were
2:03
so many reasons not to. And I don't know if Meg wants to
2:05
add to that, but. We always, I mean, it was, we've
2:08
been friends since childhood and even when we both became
2:13
lawyers, there was never a plan to start a law firm or, you
2:17
know, go out on our own together or even individually, I don't
2:19
think. And when we started walking down
2:22
this road, we were kind of like, should we?
2:24
I can think of 1,000,000 reasons not to do this, but we kind of
2:28
just kept walking down the road and and now here we are and it
2:33
feels like the most obvious thing I think.
2:35
Yeah. And when it's really purposeful
2:37
work, I know you all at Wilson Group feel that way.
2:39
When you feel really connected to the work that you're doing,
2:42
some of the obstacles just feel like you can tackle them because
2:45
the day-to-day work that you're doing really feels connected to
2:48
you and your soul. So that's how we feel.
2:50
That's amazing. How do you guys balance work and
2:54
the personal friendship that you have?
2:56
It's a great question and I don't know if I have a direct
3:00
answer except that I think, you know, the, our, our friendship
3:05
is, is so strong and the foundation of decades of time
3:12
together and childhood. And you know, when you know
3:16
someone from from their youth and you grow up together and go
3:20
through all these different experiences, it makes it really
3:24
easy to recognize where they're coming from.
3:29
You know, the ways that you know, you might be driving them
3:31
crazy or you know, the ways that you maybe aren't aligned and in
3:38
certain approaches and we just kind of sort through it as
3:43
things come up. Yeah, it's funny.
3:45
I was listening to something recently about like a marriage,
3:49
right? And how you become different
3:50
versions of yourself with that person and you hope that you
3:52
remain compatible with one another as you grow into these
3:55
new versions of yourself. I think professionally you do
3:57
that as well. And so Meg and I are finding our
3:59
groove and like learning these professional versions of
4:01
ourselves and bridging the gap and where we maybe need to find
4:06
more compatibility together so that we can like move forward
4:08
with our mission of our firm. So it definitely is like work
4:12
marriage and we try to carve out time when we know that there's
4:16
personal things going on to actually be there in the
4:18
friendship as well. Similar to like date nights for
4:21
a marriage, right? Like we try to do that a little
4:23
bit because I think that like that's the most important piece
4:26
here. Like we think that that is what
4:28
it is unique about, like our shared goals and purpose and
4:32
what we're building. And it's also like our starting
4:34
point. It's our foundation and it's,
4:36
you know, worthy of like getting extra attention.
4:38
And that's hard as business owners, but we're doing our best
4:41
and figuring it out. Yeah, incredible.
4:43
So it's been 2 years, the new firm, which is incredible.
4:46
Congrats on that. Thank you.
4:47
I remember when you started and each of you have tons of
4:51
experience. I mean AG's office, multiple big
4:53
law firms, a lot of different places where you got a ton of
4:56
experience. How did you decide what to take
4:59
from those law firms that you liked and what you said?
5:01
You know what, we're going to do it way different in our law
5:03
firm. At least with like the
5:04
day-to-day practical management of litigation matters.
5:07
Obviously our skills that we've gained in our law firm
5:10
experience and public service experience, we take that with us
5:12
day-to-day. But one thing that Megan and I
5:15
kind of a central kind of tenant with the work that we do is that
5:19
how you feel about a conflict really does matter.
5:22
Like of course the law, how how courts interpret the law, how
5:28
the the judicial process might examine a claim is important.
5:32
And then data points about however other clients have done
5:35
this is also really valuable in what we present to our client.
5:37
But our clients intuition their, their experience, lived
5:42
experience with the people involved and also how they feel
5:45
about the options, the strategy decisions that we're making.
5:48
Really, it does impact how they address the final resolution and
5:53
how they move on, right? How they whether they take that
5:55
with them and they're able to improve how they manage people
5:58
or improve how they like address conflict at work or improve how
6:02
they advocate in a medical setting, like how they feel
6:05
about it does matter. And I think that like it's not
6:07
given enough space and in our traditional avenues and our, and
6:11
our prior work experience, we just didn't feel like emotion
6:15
and how the client felt was, was looped in to the same extent.
6:19
And we think that that impacts our client.
6:21
How do our clients feel at the end?
6:22
Because I think that they, they really do recognize once they
6:26
see like it's not just about me handing my case to a lawyer.
6:29
It's about me being a team in a team with this person and
6:32
problem solving with information that only, only I know, right?
6:35
The lawyer knows a lot in terms of like experience in this Ave.
6:40
in this space, but like I know a lot about the people involved
6:42
and employment laws, like people focused, right?
6:45
Like we're humans, people make mistakes and there's so much
6:47
emotion involved in that. So I think that that's an
6:49
important part of how we're doing things differently.
6:52
Yeah, for sure. I think another piece, one of my
6:55
first jobs was working on Capitol Hill for Congressman and
6:58
we had to do a lot of, you know, explaining complicated
7:01
legislation to constituents. So you had to kind of break it
7:04
down and and you know, step by step and this is what could
7:08
happen. And this is, you know, the goal,
7:09
etcetera. This is what the next steps are.
7:13
And I think as Jen was saying, a lot of that can get lost when
7:17
you're the attorney and somebody's turning to you for
7:19
your expertise. You have done this 100 *
7:23
1,000,000 times, but the person coming to you might have never
7:26
done this before. And that can be really scary for
7:29
people. And especially a lot of the
7:31
people that we work with are, are highly skilled, very
7:33
qualified, you know, very capable.
7:35
And they want to understand what is happening, what our thought
7:40
process is, where our, our suggestions are coming from and
7:45
kind of get the layout, the, the lay of the land.
7:49
And so I think that's another big piece where instead of just
7:52
saying, OK, this is what we're going to do, here's what I
7:54
suggest. And going forth, we take some
7:58
time to kind of, you know, here's some, here's some
8:02
approaches that you could take. There's a few different ways we
8:05
could go about this. And let me explain, you know,
8:08
what that looks like, why I would suggest this one, why I
8:11
wouldn't suggest this one over here, that type of thing.
8:14
And I think people really appreciate that because they
8:17
they are now part of what the plan is, what the strategy is,
8:20
and they can, and we get a lot of new information by
8:24
approaching it that way that can really influence, you know, what
8:28
happens next. So.
8:29
I love hearing that. It's similar to kind of how we
8:31
approach things as well too. And one of the things, the more
8:35
seasoned you get in your career, I think it's so hard to always
8:38
remember that your client doesn't know the business the
8:41
way you do. So being able to slow it down
8:44
and educate them and talk them through their options, I think
8:48
is really huge. That's what it sounds like you
8:50
guys do. And we try to do the same thing,
8:52
right? We've sold hundreds of houses
8:54
every year. Most people only buy and sell a
8:57
couple of times in their lifetime, right?
8:59
And we have to always remember to kind of continue to lay out
9:03
the options, be super clear in the conversation of like what is
9:07
about to happen, right? Because it is emotional in
9:10
either one of our industries, right?
9:12
So it sounds like you're also leading your, your firm with
9:14
empathy and actually having that human aspect, which I love
9:18
hearing because nowadays everybody's trying to just
9:21
increase their, their revenue streams by making sure that
9:24
they're pumping out more and more, you know, transactions or
9:28
more and more clients or whatever it might be.
9:30
And it seems like you guys are still taking that approach that
9:32
is so much more hands on, so much more human and so much more
9:37
strategic for each person in each case.
9:41
That's being said with small businesses, what are some of the
9:45
mistakes that you see when it comes to hiring and handling
9:50
employees? Because I'm sure that there's
9:52
something that kind of might align and that you.
9:55
Deal with everyday hiring and firing.
9:58
Yep, Yeah. And I think a lot of it comes
10:00
down to just more overwhelm or or fear about, you know, the
10:06
legal side of things. And so people tend to just kind
10:09
of hope that it isn't an issue and it doesn't come up.
10:15
And what we always say for our small business owners is, you
10:19
know, you're out here providing a service or product or so you
10:23
have this skill that the world needs.
10:25
You need something you're to be focused on exactly that, the
10:29
business that you're trying to create or put out into the
10:31
world. And we're here to help you, you
10:35
know, create that foundation so that you don't end up down the
10:38
road with issues that you hadn't anticipated from the legal side
10:42
of things. Yeah.
10:44
And I think that a lot of small business owners like are excited
10:48
to grow their team, but they're worried to take that step
10:51
because they know that other laws will kick in and they don't
10:54
have, they've googled, they've asked other, you know,
10:56
colleagues and then in their industry or other business
10:59
owners they trust, but they want to have a bigger like a, a
11:02
comfort with what am I required to do?
11:06
What makes sense for me practically?
11:07
What am I deciding to do today? What can I plan to do later?
11:10
And so we do a lot of just working sessions with business
11:13
owners to help them like walk through exactly what they're
11:16
required to do based on their company size and then help them
11:19
choose like what makes sense to prioritize right now?
11:21
What do I want to invest in? What do I instinctually not
11:24
don't think I need just based on my team, right?
11:27
And so people leave feeling like, wow, I was so worried
11:30
about that. I was losing sleep over like,
11:32
what if I'm not paying them at the right time?
11:34
What if I you know, what if I shouldn't have written that
11:36
policy that way? And so giving people comfort has
11:39
been like, I don't know, a great side perk of working with
11:44
business owners. One thing that I wanted to
11:46
mention in that in that realm is like a lot of small businesses
11:49
have close teams. Like people feel like this is my
11:53
family. I spend a lot of time with these
11:54
people. They're never going to raise an
11:56
employment claim. And I'm going to treat them
11:58
right, you know? And I'm always going to treat
12:00
them right, like I appreciate their work and this isn't going
12:02
to ever go down that road. And then something shifts in
12:05
their personal life, in their family life or professionally
12:09
write some changes. You have to make some changes as
12:11
the owner of the business and and then you're kicking yourself
12:14
that you didn't set those boundaries early.
12:15
So I think thinking about it at a hiring or annual review
12:19
period, just to make sure that like the terms of the
12:21
arrangement are clear, that everybody has a sense of what
12:24
the expectations are. And I know you all have had
12:26
other episodes around like just employee management and
12:29
performance and coaching and all that.
12:31
And you've shared some really valuable information in that
12:33
realm. And I think it overlaps a lot
12:35
with the employment compliance and just education about like
12:40
making sure that you have the data and then you can make the
12:42
decision that makes sense for you.
12:43
Your services go hand in hand with almost every single person
12:46
we've had on the podcast, right? Because what we talked a lot
12:50
about is scaling too. And what you just outlined
12:53
mentioned is that, you know, you start off as this little family,
12:56
right? When you build your, your
12:57
beginning of your company and you've got these core people.
13:01
But as you do start to grow, as life starts to change,
13:04
milestones happen, right? There's people that end up
13:06
having health issues that have babies that have all kinds of
13:09
different life experiences that are going to cause them to need
13:14
certain benefits, right? But then from there, it's also,
13:17
if your company is scaling and growing and you didn't already
13:20
lay that foundation out there, are you even preparing legally
13:23
for what you're going to, you know, continue to grow into?
13:27
So one thing I'm curious about is if someone were to enlist you
13:29
guys and hire you, do you help write handbooks?
13:33
Do you look through the handbooks?
13:34
Like what is what does that look like when someone brings on
13:38
Scully and O'Leary and has them help shape their business
13:42
basically for growth and scalability?
13:44
Yeah. So we it's very specific to the
13:47
goals of the client. We can definitely, you know,
13:50
draft handbooks, we can review existing handbooks.
13:53
We do that a lot for people, review offer letters and job
13:59
descriptions and all things like that.
14:02
We do a lot of kind of discussion about, you know, your
14:06
policy might say this, but how what are you actually doing
14:08
day-to-day? What's your practice so that we
14:11
can, you know, it's all aligned and a piece that we always talk
14:16
about for for business owners, you know, when you do start with
14:19
that small group and you know, everybody's, everybody's, you
14:22
know, pulling their weight and doing, you know, what's
14:24
expected. And as you grow, you might hire
14:28
another, you know, another person to your team and maybe
14:31
that person isn't so aligned with how things are going.
14:35
And when you don't have policies and procedures in place, you're
14:39
you're leaving yourself vulnerable and your team of
14:44
solid employees that you want to keep and protect to this kind
14:47
of, you know, bad apple or however you want to.
14:51
And then addressing it feels less personal that one person,
14:53
right, because you have you thought about it ahead of time.
14:55
So in terms of like employment agreements or like Mike said,
14:59
offer letters, confidentiality agreements, non solicit
15:01
agreements, terms that govern the party's behavior at the
15:04
start, during and after are an area that we really love working
15:09
with clients on. And then one reason recently, 1
15:12
area that has come up a lot recently is like the client
15:14
knows they want to hire, but they're trying to figure out
15:16
like what is this role? Like I know functionally what I
15:19
want the role to be, but like what makes sense legally?
15:21
How many hours should Ioffer? What should my pay be?
15:23
What should my benefits be? Like help me think through like
15:26
how to create this role for how long?
15:28
And so we're doing a lot of just like pre hiring, kind of helping
15:31
people like make those management decisions.
15:34
And that's really fun because there's so much excitement
15:36
around that for people, and we love playing a role in that.
15:38
That's awesome. You, you mentioned a few things.
15:40
You mentioned vulnerability and a company being vulnerable by
15:43
not having their processes essentially, you know, ironclad.
15:48
And then you mentioned something earlier about Google people just
15:51
Googling things, which leads me to think of AII.
15:56
Can. See your face?
15:57
Oh, the buzzword. Which is one of those things
15:59
where, you know, obviously everyone's talking about it
16:01
every day in business, you know, but I've, I'm hearing cases and
16:04
I know we've talked offline about, you know, how companies
16:07
are now being, are vulnerable by thinking they're getting the
16:10
correct information from AI or the recent decision in the
16:13
courts where, you know, now anything that is searched via AI
16:18
can now be admissible. And it's not private, private or
16:22
client privilege relation, Right.
16:23
Yeah. Something on those slides I'm
16:24
ever reading. Yep.
16:25
Are you telling me about. So tell me a little bit about
16:27
how AI has changed your business and what you're seeing on how
16:31
you're having to kind of play along with that.
16:33
Sure. I mean, it's definitely a really
16:35
valuable tool for our business. I mean, we are day-to-day trying
16:38
to track what court decisions are on certain statutory rules,
16:43
right? There's the statute that says
16:44
what you have to do, but then the courts interpret that
16:46
statute. And so judges are making law all
16:48
the time. And so to keep track of that,
16:50
you're reading cases and you're researching pretty often within
16:53
legal tools. Now they have AI incorporated,
16:56
and so you really only have to ask a couple of sentences and
16:58
they will summarize the recent case law.
17:00
And that saves us so much time. We of course have to then,
17:03
before presenting anything to a client or a court, double check
17:06
that the AI tool is doing that accurately.
17:08
But it gives you such a valuable starting point on the research
17:11
side. I think that that is like a huge
17:14
piece of things. Another side is like contract
17:16
creation, like drafting contracts and working within
17:18
tools to like be a step ahead when you're a lawyer, then
17:23
reviewing it with your judgement and your expertise, right.
17:26
And, and then I think that people get tripped up when they
17:30
think that, that these tools replace the judgement of a
17:33
lawyer because we, you know, we've been doing this for 13
17:36
years. We swore an oath and there's
17:38
candor that we are expected to administer and, and what we're
17:43
saying to the court, what we're saying to our clients, a
17:45
software robot tool does not have that, that doesn't have the
17:48
judgement. It doesn't have the obligation
17:50
to respect the kind of ethics sticks behind the advice that
17:54
you're giving. And so the case you're
17:57
referencing, Ryan, is a recent federal court decision in New
17:59
York. So there hasn't been any case on
18:01
this in our circuit in Massachusetts.
18:03
But it's informing kind of this evolving area of the law where
18:07
the judges will be interpreting like what is protected by
18:10
attorney-client privilege. That decision said, you know, if
18:12
an individual is searching within a tool, this is Claude, I
18:15
believe, searching within a tool and is asking for advice, legal
18:19
advice, not at the direction of counsel.
18:21
So he was just like, if this is exposure for me, kind of what
18:24
should I do that is not protected by privilege, even
18:27
though he thought that this was attorney like legal advice, it
18:30
wasn't. And so the judge is saying no,
18:32
the other side can look at that search criteria and they can ask
18:35
Claude for the information and it's not it doesn't remain
18:39
within the sphere of the attorney-client privilege
18:41
protection. And so there's going to continue
18:43
to be case law around this in this area.
18:44
Megan, I think it's really, you know, informing us and how we're
18:48
presenting our, our engagements to our clients.
18:50
We changed our engagement letter to make clear that, like, you
18:52
know, any use of AI tools should be within the at the at our
18:57
direction. If you choose to do that on your
18:59
own, there's a risk that that could hurt your claims or hurt
19:02
your case, right, or expose you to, to potential additional
19:05
damages or evidentiary exposure if if you were to have a claim
19:08
brought against you. And then also, like, you know,
19:11
we, we are very upfront with our clients in, in ways in which we
19:15
can utilize AI to kind of streamline some of our research
19:18
time. But also that's not legal
19:21
advice. And the legal advice comes from
19:22
us. I don't know if you have
19:23
anything else, Meg I. Have a lot.
19:27
I'll I'll keep it tight, but I think another piece is, you
19:31
know, sometimes people will come to us with pre written contracts
19:34
or pre written emails. You know, I put this into AI and
19:38
then this is what came back. Can you edit it for me?
19:41
And, and like a Jenna saying, there's, there's room for that,
19:45
but sometimes depending on the situation, it can take more time
19:50
for us to edit something that AI has sent to you than for us to
19:54
just drafted ourselves. Because even just stylistically
19:57
and you know, it's difficult to, to come from, you know, a
20:00
perspective with a robot, you know, feeding you information
20:03
and you're, you're trying to make it connect to the this
20:09
particular situation and use your expertise and all the
20:13
information that you have from seeing other types of cases in
20:16
the same way. To, you know, kind of massage
20:20
that language and things like that.
20:21
So it just it, you know, again, there's definitely a place for
20:25
it and sometimes it can, you know, jump you a few steps
20:28
ahead, but. That's a really good point.
20:32
Yeah, sometimes it does set us back if we start working with
20:34
it. Yeah, fair.
20:35
I feel like we could, we could talk about this for hours,
20:38
right? Because I think in every
20:40
industry it's replacing some of the data entry, some of the
20:44
small tasky type things. There's definitely an element of
20:47
helping us with research, but there is also this other piece
20:51
of you really still have to use like the human brain for high
20:55
level strategy. And I think in most industries,
20:59
that's where you really truly like can't be replaced.
21:02
They've been saying for years, real estate agents are going to
21:04
be replaced. Like I don't think real estate
21:07
agents, doctors, attorneys, like majority of actual industries
21:11
out there cannot be replaced because you really still have to
21:14
actually assess all of the scenarios and then create a
21:18
strategy to then, you know, go forward.
21:21
Especially in the way that you guys, you know, provide real
21:24
estate services. A robot can't do that.
21:25
You know, you guys are exceptional.
21:27
Thank you you. Are right.
21:30
Yeah. They also said that that
21:31
financial advisors were going to be extinct back in the 90s when
21:34
like. The dinosaurs.
21:35
Like like the T Rex. Yeah, yeah.
21:39
Next thing you know, look at them go, but they did when
21:41
E*Trade started, they said, oh, people can trade their own
21:43
stocks. Now we people aren't going to be
21:44
financial advisors. If you look at the numbers now,
21:46
there's a higher percentage of people that actually use
21:48
financial advisors. Same thing for real estate
21:50
people. People want a human when making
21:53
some of the biggest decisions over their lives and you were
21:55
helping people make some of their biggest decisions in the
21:57
workplace as far as hiring and firing etcetera, so.
22:00
I think you guys said it best though, it's a great starting
22:02
point. It's a great tool to use for,
22:06
you know, kind of streamlining some things, making some things
22:08
move faster. But ultimately it it really
22:11
should not be relied on for the actual meat of what you're
22:15
you're doing in your industry, right, Because that is where you
22:18
have to truly use your brain, you know, and use your
22:20
expertise. You're 13 years of experience
22:23
and I think that that's a really good point.
22:25
I love hearing that. I also like hearing like the
22:28
legal piece of it being potentially admissible in court
22:32
and like things like that. Because I think that that
22:33
actually puts in perspective that it's, it's a tool to be
22:36
used in certain scenarios. And then there are other areas
22:39
where it's like you probably should just hire a human being
22:41
and make sure you're using an advocate, right, which is kind
22:44
of why you started your business in general is to have that
22:46
advocacy for these different legal matters.
22:49
So switching gears, what is a common misconception for the
22:54
mass wage and wage and yes. Yeah.
23:00
I feel like a lot of people have some like unique thoughts on
23:04
that, right? Like people will try and say to
23:06
different companies or whatever, like, well, legally I'm supposed
23:09
to get paid for this or paid for that, right?
23:11
And then I think employers on the flip side, don't really
23:14
think through how they have to change up the the wage and hour
23:17
laws at certain times. Yeah, I think it's a great topic
23:20
to mention here because we don't you were educating people about
23:24
it every week, both employees and employers.
23:27
And I, I worked at the AG's office early in my career and
23:31
focused on this law and that it's very employee friendly in
23:35
Massachusetts. So if you aren't paid your wages
23:37
on time or you're fired and not paid your last check on that
23:40
day, the employees entitled to three times the amount of the
23:44
wage plus attorneys fees plus costs.
23:47
So that attorneys fees lever really triggers things for
23:50
people, right? And so I think that both
23:53
employers and employees need to be very, very conscious of, you
23:59
know, the employees entitlement to timely payment and then the
24:02
risk of not doing that. Some, some employers just don't
24:05
realize that like, no, I have to direct deposit that check on the
24:08
day of the termination or if they resign, the next pay within
24:12
the next, you know, regular scheduled payroll cycle.
24:14
And it should include paid time off.
24:15
Paid time off is deemed wages in Massachusetts.
24:18
Sick time law is not. So if you have an extra sick
24:20
time bank, that's not deemed wages.
24:22
But that final check, if you're firing someone needs to be their
24:25
wages through their last day as if they worked a full day and
24:27
then they're paid time off. And we can't say it enough.
24:31
I feel like we're working with clients all the time that are
24:33
facing legal claims because they didn't comply with this rule.
24:37
And I think individuals should also be aware of it.
24:39
If you have a confusion around what your last day is or what
24:42
your last check is, or like what, what the terms were of
24:46
your employment and your pay, check out the Wage Act.
24:49
There's a lot of resources on the the state's website.
24:51
And then we offer, you know, consultations for people
24:54
frequently to help them understand like what it is, what
24:58
am I, what am I entitled to? What makes sense for me
25:00
practically? What's the way to follow up
25:02
about this and try to, you know, solve the problem aside from
25:05
just filing a complaint? And so we feel like that
25:09
practical step like how is this going to impact things for me,
25:11
especially if you're still working somewhere and you're not
25:14
getting paid timely, Like there's, there's a balance
25:16
there. Yeah.
25:17
And there's, there's one of the most interesting pieces of it, I
25:22
think, is that it's strict liability, which means it
25:25
doesn't matter if as an employer there was an administrative
25:29
error. You did it by accident.
25:31
You know, you had the best intentions.
25:32
You didn't mean for them to, you know, not get their paycheck on
25:35
the right day or whatever. You didn't pay them on the day
25:38
that they were terminated. Your intent makes no difference
25:42
if you violate, it's just considered a violation whether
25:45
you had terrible intent or the best intent.
25:49
And so there's not a whole lot that you can do there.
25:53
And three times the wages, you know, if another kind of piece
25:56
of this is how you classify your workers.
25:59
So, you know, independent contractors versus employees.
26:03
And there's very strict laws and rules about how you know if you
26:07
are, if you are calling someone an independent contractor, you
26:12
know what criteria they have to meet in order to be considered
26:16
that instead of an employee. And we see this every once in a
26:21
while where employers will just say, well, I don't want to deal
26:25
with the employee stuff, so I'll just call you an, an independent
26:27
contractor. And then, you know, that person
26:29
works for years for for their employer and, and then, you
26:35
know, something goes South and they realize, oh, wait a minute,
26:37
I was an employee that whole time and I didn't get paid
26:40
overtime or, you know, something like that times three years of
26:47
overtime payments. You know, maybe you have
26:49
multiple employees that you have, you know, classified all
26:53
as independent content like this can add up very quickly and you
26:57
know, it can it can take a business out.
27:00
So, and it's and it's, it's avoidable, right?
27:03
It's one of those things where you just need to know what you
27:06
need to know and you can approach in that way instead of,
27:10
you know, just kind of hoping for the best.
27:13
Right. So when you say it's avoidable,
27:16
what would be your recommendation for it's more for
27:19
employers, right, Business owners, they need to be really
27:22
well versed on this. So you mentioned free resources,
27:25
but would they be able to hire you guys to walk you through,
27:29
like to walk them through these legal matters, Make sure that
27:32
all the people are set up correctly and like you kind of
27:34
walk them through the payroll? Definitely.
27:36
Pros and cons are laws, right? Yeah, Yeah, we help.
27:40
We help business owners I think weekly by weekly on this
27:42
decision, some that have started and with a 1099 relationship,
27:46
independent contractor relationship, they're growing,
27:48
they're trying to discern who should transition to W2 when,
27:51
how, how are they categorizing which, which roles are remaining
27:55
1099. We help with that strategy
27:57
decision often and then documenting it in a way that
27:59
sets them up to like create boundaries around that, that for
28:02
the people that they're working with.
28:04
And also like know what red flags to keep an eye out for as
28:07
things change, right? Business owners are so busy.
28:10
And so what's, what creates the red flag for them?
28:11
We're trying to give them kind of things to look out for, to
28:14
know when to loop us back in. And then accurate record
28:17
keeping, like the pay stub needs to show the accurate paid time
28:20
off. If if this person is taking a
28:22
ton of paid time off and you're not docking it within the system
28:25
and they have a chunk of money when you fire them, they're
28:28
entitled to that. So like the accuracy of the time
28:30
keeping is also a way that they can just kind of stay ahead of
28:33
it. And so we help business owners
28:35
kind of assess where they're at, what needs to change and train
28:39
their like management level employees so that they're kind
28:42
of aware of the exposure as they're managing the day-to-day
28:45
OPS. So that's an area that we love
28:47
helping business owners with. And how to draft your policies
28:50
and future. So at least you know, you know
28:52
I'm going to give PTO and it's a separate bucket from sick leave.
28:56
And you know, if I decide to terminate someone, I'll have to
28:59
pay out that time. If you don't know that ahead of
29:01
time, you could end up with, you know, a significant payout that
29:06
you weren't expecting. And their fees and your fees and
29:09
and attorneys fees really just add things up to the mix.
29:12
And so we're trying to help employers avoid that.
29:14
Don't be short sighted, right? If you're hiring or firing, hire
29:18
Scullion O'Leary. That's.
29:19
Right, we can. Put that in a billboard right
29:21
there. Maybe that's our new tagline.
29:23
Don't be short sighted. It's so true though.
29:25
I mean, honestly, if you're hiring or firing someone,
29:27
letting someone go, whatever the case may be, like talking to
29:29
someone and getting a couple hours of legal advice, it ends
29:32
up saving you 10's and 10s of thousands of dollars down the
29:34
road. Yeah, and that doesn't even take
29:36
into account the headache and everything you need to to go.
29:39
Through Peace of Mind too. As a business owner, I think you
29:41
have so many sleepless nights with all of the other things
29:44
you're worried about, just even keeping the lights on, making
29:47
sure that you're actually profitable, continuing to grow.
29:50
And then you've got all these employees now you know that
29:54
you're responsible for their livelihood and their families
29:57
and all those things. So I think that like you said,
29:59
it's taking a couple of hours to get legal advice and set your
30:04
behind the scenes up like so it's actually legally sound is
30:08
going to be one of those things that it's just one weight that's
30:10
lifted off your shoulders as an as an entrepreneur or a business
30:13
owner. If you're going to run a
30:14
legitimate business mind, might as well get your stuff set up
30:17
properly. Yeah, and build relationships
30:18
with someone you trust. So if you're in a crisis, you
30:21
know who you want to call to help you at that moment, right?
30:23
Great. It's like a plumber, right?
30:24
You want you want to have a plumber on on standby.
30:27
So when you have an issue, you know who you trust, you're going
30:29
to call. Like it's similar with our
30:30
service, like we want to help people upfront but also create
30:33
relationships so they feel like if this goes SI know who I wanna
30:37
bring in to help on our team. It's a great point.
30:39
And I think any small business is built on relationships.
30:43
It really is. And that's what you've built
30:45
your whole business on is the advocacy for these people and
30:49
you get a relationship with these people and then therefore
30:51
you can help them even more. But there's specific case, one
30:55
case that was is kind of like, you know, in the news lately is
30:58
the Wayfair retaliation case, which I wanted to ask you about.
31:03
They should have hired you for four that small company.
31:07
Tell us about that case because that could influence a lot of
31:10
people, especially, you know, this world.
31:12
Yes, that that caught a lot of headlines a couple of weeks ago.
31:16
So for those who haven't heard about it, a matter in state
31:20
court, jury verdict where plaintiff was awarded 4.7
31:24
million dollars, $600,000 and emotional distress damages about
31:28
75,000 in back pay and then $4 million in punitive damages for
31:32
retaliatory treatment for claiming that she was treated
31:36
differently based on her age and taking leave under the
31:39
Massachusetts paid family medical leave law.
31:41
And so it was kind of a important court decision, jury,
31:45
jury verdict under the mass paid family medical leave law because
31:48
that law passed in 2018. There hasn't been a verdict
31:50
around the retaliation component of that law.
31:53
And it's something that we're advising employer, our employer
31:55
clients and our individual clients that we do benefits
31:58
consulting with to say like this law is really it's a heightened
32:02
standard if you are to fire someone within six months of
32:04
them taking leave. And so it's presumed
32:07
retaliation. If you do that, if you change,
32:09
you make a change to their work role, it's called an adverse
32:13
employment action. It might not be firing them, but
32:16
making an adverse change to their role within six months of
32:19
them, you know, asserting their rights under that law.
32:22
And so the standard is clear and convincing evidence.
32:25
It's a lot higher. It's a lot harder for the
32:26
employer to show that I would have done this regardless of
32:30
whether they went on leave. It's it's much higher than the
32:33
anti discrimination law in Massachusetts, the standard for
32:36
the plaintiff to prove a claim under 151 B.
32:39
And so this case kind of, you know, caught a lot of attention
32:42
and we're trying to remind employers that if you are going
32:45
to make changes in your workplace and someone has taken
32:47
leave under this law, like recognize the the risk here and
32:51
maybe consider doing it outside the six month window, so long as
32:55
you're not retaliating against the individual, right?
32:57
So like, obviously you don't want to be retaliating against
32:59
someone for asserting their rights under the law, but if you
33:01
are going to fire them for a different reason, you still
33:04
going to have some exposure there if it's within the six
33:05
month period. And so really pay close
33:07
attention to like documentation conversations around the reason
33:11
and getting legal advice if you're making that decision.
33:13
And I think we're going to continue to see more litigation
33:15
around this area of the law. It's really interesting.
33:17
Yeah, Thanks for explaining that.
33:19
Of course, I mean, one thing, it's impressive.
33:20
What you guys do is you also advocate and educate people on
33:25
what their rights are for these things that the employer is
33:28
offering, whether it be through the company or through an
33:31
individual. And I know and we're going to
33:33
put your website online where you have free resources and if
33:37
they want to reach out, they certainly can to have a
33:38
conversation with you. Thanks.
33:40
Of course, yeah. That's one area that Megan, I
33:42
feel like is different about a law firm as you do a lot of
33:44
benefits education, help people access the benefits that they
33:47
they're they paid into or their employer paid into, or maybe
33:49
it's the state leave program. There's a lot of puzzle pieces
33:52
involved in what makes sense for your your employment leave.
33:54
And so we love doing this consulting work and we have a
33:56
guide on our website to help people who are expecting parents
33:59
kind of have a starting point. That's great because most people
34:01
don't. They don't understand what
34:03
they're entitled to in you being able to navigate them, to
34:06
actually get them what they're legally entitled to.
34:08
Is is great. Yeah.
34:09
And a lot of people in need rather be maternity leave,
34:11
fraternity leave, anything. So that's, that's awesome.
34:14
Before we finish up, we want to do a quick, quick lightning
34:17
round. This is our first time doing it.
34:19
Oh yeah. So you guys are our Guinea pigs,
34:23
but we're excited. I think, I mean to like pick
34:26
your brain and get a little lightning answer on the the
34:29
questions that we have. I think we can learn a lot from
34:31
you in just a couple minutes. That's great.
34:33
OK, All right, so give. US1 of your productivity hacks
34:37
as a new business owner. You, I know I got to do this
34:39
quickly. You want to trust your intuition
34:42
about what you're going to get done quickly that day and not
34:44
always go by your list. I feel like sometimes I get
34:47
distracted with the grind as opposed to like, what do I feel
34:49
like I can accomplish and get done right now?
34:51
Now doesn't always have to be the have to be the quickest
34:53
thing, but trust your body and what feels like you can, you can
34:57
churn through something quicker than what you had planned.
35:00
Obviously your balance and client commitments and all that.
35:02
But I think that with the OP side and a lot of decisions that
35:05
business owners have every day, it's, it's easy to get kind of
35:08
frustrated if you're not getting through what you told yourself
35:11
you're supposed to do that day. And I think that I get I'm much
35:14
more productive when I listen to what feels attainable and what
35:17
feels like something I can, I can do in the moment.
35:20
And by the end of the week, I've accomplished the same things.
35:23
It's just comes with less grind. And I think for burnout and just
35:26
also just for like creative problem solving.
35:28
I think that that that the results that I get from
35:31
listening to my body actually outweigh some of the some of the
35:35
day-to-day approaches that I used to use in my my litigation
35:39
world prior to starting our love that.
35:40
Worth you gut? Yeah, I love that too.
35:42
Yeah, like just go with what you're kind of more in the mood
35:44
for, right? Yeah, yeah, it's, I think it's
35:47
helpful. You gotta you gotta try and go
35:48
with that cuz it will be faster done faster.
35:51
And it's more fun, really. Yeah.
35:52
It's supposed to be fun like it is.
35:53
Exactly. And you're, you're a business
35:55
owner, super fun. Fun only.
35:59
Yeah, just as that's all it is. OK, Favorite business book?
36:03
So we are always listening to Audible books to try to learn.
36:08
In real effect for real life podcast Yeah of.
36:10
Course. Of course.
36:11
Horace, this podcast on repeat, this might be a non traditional
36:15
one, but the path to integrity by Martha Beck.
36:18
It's all about like finding your soul's purpose and exercises in
36:23
like questioning kind of where you think you're supposed to go
36:25
versus where where you're being LED and whatever in whatever way
36:29
that that speaks to you. That has affirmed a lot of
36:33
things for me and and big picture strategic decisions that
36:36
we make. And so while not a traditional
36:39
business book, I think that when your business is so purposeful
36:43
in the core of who you are like that, that book helps with a lot
36:46
of insight for me. And then a more traditional one
36:48
that we've been, we've been relying on recently and trying
36:50
to think through like revamping some marketing things and just
36:53
like getting our message out a story brand 2.0 kind of focusing
36:57
on like understanding your brand and simplifying it for your
36:59
ideal client. That's been really helpful.
37:02
I love that I'm going to put them both on my list.
37:04
All right, another one biggest legal myth.
37:07
I think the biggest legal myth is that everything has to be
37:12
contentious. You would only turn to an
37:14
attorney when there's some big fight that you're going to get
37:17
into and things are already, you know, really kind of have
37:21
already devolved. What we do a lot of is, again,
37:26
the advocacy piece explaining, educating people so that they
37:30
can kind of have more information to make a decision
37:34
about what they want to do next, right?
37:36
Like they don't often come to us because everything is perfect,
37:39
but it doesn't need to be something that, you know, we've
37:44
hit a hard wall and that's, you know, there's nowhere else to
37:47
go. So let's sue them.
37:49
You know, there's so much space in between there and even just
37:52
in terms of having the information that you need again,
37:56
to be able to make a decision about what you want to do next
37:59
as an employee, as an employer. You know, even, you know, in
38:04
random things like start like trying to open a brick and
38:08
mortar and you're sorting through like your lease and
38:11
you're like, I don't, I don't know what this says.
38:13
You know, who can do I hire a whole law firm to review this?
38:17
And that is like fully within what we offer to our, you know,
38:22
small business clients. It's like it just kind of
38:25
educating people. There's so much out there and we
38:28
can break it down and make it. Yeah, exactly like this is, this
38:32
is what this says. What do you think?
38:34
You know, and if you don't like it, then let's talk about what
38:37
we can do about it. It doesn't have to be this, you
38:39
know, like banging fists on the table thing.
38:42
I love that you're you're asking people to just kind of slow
38:45
down, take a pause, learn, learn your options and then from there
38:49
make a more clear headed, level headed decision, right.
38:53
So that's that's a really good point.
38:55
I do think a lot of people love to just use the words too right
38:58
and we. Can do that too, yes.
39:01
Yeah, you guys, you cover it all.
39:04
Last one tip for any entrepreneur that is opening
39:08
their own business. What's your 1 tip?
39:09
I would say Jen touched on this. You know, you want to, you want
39:14
to gather information, you want to plan, but you also want to
39:19
look inside of yourself for answers.
39:21
You know, like I think there's so much that, you know, for
39:26
myself in particular, I did a lot of like I do a lot of
39:28
research. I'm looking for, you know,
39:30
somebody to explain to me what I should do and trying to make
39:34
decisions from, you know, the experts and, and everybody
39:37
that's in this outside space. And that's important.
39:42
It's important to get the information that you need to
39:44
have, you know, an understanding of what's the options are,
39:47
etcetera. But the best way that I found to
39:50
know what to do next was to have that information and then sit
39:55
quietly with myself and say, does this feel right?
40:00
Or not, you know, and I think like that is something that we
40:03
do all the time and it's proven over and over in very specific,
40:10
like clear ways that we were like, we don't I think we should
40:13
say no to this. I can't really articulate why.
40:15
And then months later, you know, we find out why and, and we
40:19
couldn't have known that at the time.
40:22
So I think that, you know, it's important to to look to experts
40:27
and for guidance and things like that, especially for things that
40:30
you don't know anything about. But at the end of the day, if
40:34
you're starting your own business and you're going to go
40:35
out on your own, you're going to take that risk.
40:37
Listening to yourself is just as important.
40:40
I think that's a really good point in terms of you gather a
40:43
lot of information, but ultimately the information we
40:46
gather, sometimes it's conflicting.
40:48
Sometimes it's hard to actually kind of figure out where you
40:51
fall within all of the different bits of information that you are
40:54
getting. So I think just like taking that
40:56
moment to reflect instead of impulsively continuing to move,
40:59
Yeah. And then figuring out where you
41:01
want to fall within it. And you might, as a great
41:03
impulsively continue to move, or you might get stuck in the
41:07
indecision of too much information.
41:09
Yeah, and that can also be a problem because then you don't
41:11
take the leap. And you were otherwise very
41:14
capable and you probably knew the whole time what to do, but
41:17
you just got stuck in it. Yeah.
41:18
Well, this is great, guys. I can't tell you how much we
41:20
appreciate you coming on. We love chatting with you.
41:22
Thank you. For having us I could do this
41:23
for. Of course.
41:25
Have we already done? I.
41:27
Know, I mean, honestly, I think that this left me feeling like
41:31
we need to definitely talk more as we continue to scale our
41:35
business. I think we have a lot of
41:36
listeners and a lot of other people that have been on the
41:38
podcast that have been in positions where they absolutely
41:42
could use your expertise. The other thing that you guys
41:46
provide, which is a massive topic that we've had with almost
41:49
every other entrepreneur on our podcast as well, is clarity.
41:52
They always say if you want to be a good leader, you have to
41:55
have clarity. If you want to have a great work
41:59
environment, a non-toxic work environment, there has to be
42:02
clarity. You have to be able to really
42:04
express and be clear on what it is that your expectation is from
42:09
your employees and what the expectation is that you're going
42:11
to provide your employees. And you guys actually are are
42:15
the missing link that would provide even more clarity for
42:18
all of those businesses. So I kind of love that we've
42:21
been able to full circle like kind of bring your business and
42:24
your expertise into this world because I think that that is
42:28
that is truly like one of the topics and themes of
42:30
entrepreneurship. So thank you guys so.
42:33
Much. Well, thank you for coming on,
42:35
Jen and Meg of Scully and O'Leary.
42:37
We can't thank you enough. Thanks so much.
42:40
Thank you.