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#17: Sarah 2.0 · Shouty Brain

• Trevor Holland: Hello, my name is Trevor Holland and welcome to Shouty Brain, the podcast from an Audi HD man on a Voyage Discovery to find my people in a neurotypical world. Hope everybody's doing okay this week. I'm doing very well. Thank you for asking. You may have noticed a slight difference in the dynamic. I am not on my own. There is somebody with me. Sarah. Remember Sarah? Sarah: Hi. Trevor Holland: Hey might remember Sarah from Sarah: Hi. Trevor Holland: episode fuck episode four, three, four, five, something like that. Sarah: Four. Four. Four's my favorite number. That time I remember. I hope it was four. Can you imagine if Trevor Holland: So we had I don't know. Sarah: it wasn't somewhere like I'm like four's my favorite number? Trevor Holland: Okay. Imagine. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: so yeah, Sarah and I did an episode quite early on and we had a very nice time doing it, and I wanted to bring Sarah back on, and for a couple of reasons, in fact. So I reached out to Sarah recently, and as as you will all know, I've been going through a period of burnout, and when I go through a period of burnout, I lose a lot of confidence in my ability to do the things that I always do. and I start to doubt myself and the direction I'm going in. But also I've realized that I love this podcast and I want to make the best of it and I want it to be the best version of itself it can be. And I was thinking the podcast that I choose to listen to, the ones that I really enjoy, they normally involve at least two people having quite a frank discussion and they're taking the piss and they're having a laugh and it's just no holds barred. They're talking to each other as if there isn't even a microphone in front of them. Now, the episodes where I have a guest on are lovely. I love them. Although I will have to admit that my my social battery is all over the shop. Sometimes I am more engaging than others. And when I'm at the helm of a podcast, but I don't feel as though I actually have the spoons to be at the helm, I think It might be nice to have a second person around sometimes. so what Sarah's gonna be doing is she's gonna be joining me on some episodes. Now I don't know how many and I don't know how often we're gonna be kind of freestyling this, but what she has offered to do is to is to help me out with some of this stuff. And she's got quite a lot of contacts in the disability community. who have agreed to to come on as guests. So she's gonna be helping me out. So this episode right here is episode one of a bit of an experiment, and you, my lovely audience, are the guinea pigs for this experiment. So I realised Sarah: my gosh. Trevor Holland: I've got a co host and yet I haven't given her a fucking chance to speak. It is episode four, Sarah. I was just looking it up as we were speaking. It was episode Sarah: I know. okay. Trevor Holland: four. How you doing, Sarah? Sarah: God, are gonna let me speak now? You show up. Trevor Holland: Yeah, yeah, yeah, go and crack on mate crack on, mate. Sarah: I don't even know what to say now because you've just been bla blah blah blah. Joking. hello, hi, I'm Sarah. Thanks. yeah, I mean that's all Trevor Holland: Hi? Yeah. you're done. Sarah: I've gotta say because you was just like Trevor Holland: But that's my that's Sarah: Bye. Trevor Holland: that's the responsibility I give myself when I forget so yeah, I'm gonna have to get used to the fact that I do really like the sound of my own voice. It is true. But Sarah: Yeah? Really? Trevor Holland: yeah, can you tell? Sarah: I would ne no, I would have never have guessed because I mean you just blabbed on for them about three minutes. Yeah. Yeah. It was. I was Trevor Holland: Did I? shit, yeah. It was about three minutes. Was it annoying? Sarah: like I was like, n it wasn't actually, but I mean you did mention like imposter syndrome quite massively. Trevor Holland: Well about it. Sarah: You that you have imposter syndrome? Trevor Holland: Yeah, I do. Sarah: Yeah. And hello. Same. Trevor Holland: Do you have it all the time? Sarah: No, I don't have it all the time. Just most of the time. No. I think when I'm doing like something new, when I definitely when I'm acting, or when I'm getting a new job, especially Trevor Holland: Mm. Sarah: like sorry, can I just I'm just gonna close these blinds, is alright? I'm getting like a see that. Trevor Holland: Yeah. Sarah: Mm-hmm. Trevor Holland: But vertical stripes are really flattering, Sarah. Sarah: snap. Trevor Holland: Well, yeah. Sarah: I'm back. is that alright? Trevor Holland: Yeah, yeah. Sarah: yeah, so yeah, sometimes when I'm acting, it's like who the fuck in the hell do you think you are? I'm nearly forty. Why have I gone back into acting? stuff like that, do you know what I mean? Trevor Holland: Is it recent then? Go going Sarah: Yeah, just Trevor Holland: back into Ap then? Sarah: I've gone back into acting the last two years. I used to do it a lot when I was a kid. And yeah, going back now, especially as a wheelchair user. It's it's scary. Trevor Holland: Well you're not a wheelchair user when you were a kid. Sarah: No no, I've only used the wheelchair for last like ten fifteen years. Trevor Holland: So you feel like an imposter when you're working. I I I I don't in that capacity. I don't do the sort of work that you do though. But when I'm doing this, I don't feel like an imposter. I'm like I feel like I don't I I have no inferiority complex about my ability to podcast, in spite of evidence to the contrary, when I have like massive technical issues or I completely f fuck up fuck up what I'm saying, which I ha which happens a lot. I have Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: unlimited confidence in my podcasting ability. But in life, I'm an imposter. And I talked Sarah: Okay. Trevor Holland: I talked about it on Instagram recently. I because I'm newly diagnosed and because I've lived my life without ADHD and autism being part of the conversation. So instead being being j being judged by others and myself for what my perceived shortcomings that now I've got these diagnoses that that give me sense and reason for the way that I am and the things that I do. But because I'm so used to the other reality, I still convince myself regularly that I'm faking the whole thing and that I don't have ADHD or autism. I don't have a disability that I'm making a fuss over nothing. That I just need to fucking pull my socks up and get on with my life. So I Sarah: Wow. Trevor Holland: so I'm I'm bully I bully myself Sarah: Okay. Trevor Holland: And but not all the time. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: But I still occasionally get like, come on man. You just just do the things. Stop being a fucking pussy about it. Just do the things. And like, but I can't. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. That's interesting. That's interesting. I s I think because I have had my physical disability since I was a kid, it's very different for me. Because like I was only diagnosed ADHD and aut is autistic when I was 37, so like two years ago. I it it it was easy for me to like be like, sorry, I'm a little weird out because I I'm very cool I'm very happy being weird. And not I'm not saying a being ADHD and autistic is weird, that's just the way I I perceive myself. but like having a physical disability, it was easy for me to accept that I'm neurodivergent. So like the thing with me though is when I sh show a an ADHD trait or an autistic trait, I have to tell everybody that that was one that Trevor Holland: Mm. Sarah: was maybe in ADHD. So like yesterday I was in my acting class and I it's still now I'm gonna think about this for the next 40 years. I overshared something massively in front of the whole class and it it it irritates the shit out of me now. it was only yesterday but i i i I will think about it for 40 years. I overshared something and I was like I'm sorry I'm being weird but I need to tell you this. And there was like 20 people in the class and I overshadow and I went, I'm sorry, that's me just being ADHD. I am I'm just ADHD, I'm ADHD. And I do it all the time. And I just have to tell people when I've done something that I'm ADHD because it's like that's me getting out of j of jail free card why I've been strange or why I've been why I've done this, why I've done this. And I hate that I do that. It irritates me that I do that. I'm just like, just get over it. You've just you've you've done it because that's the way your brain's wired. Just just Just don't tell everybody, just just just just do it. Just be you. Trevor Holland: Well you're so you're doing what I'm doing a bit in a different version of it. So y I'm I I I bully myself into convincing myself that I am a charlatan and what you do is is you're you're still trying to make accommodations to make everyone as comfortable as possible in your presence. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Trevor Holland: Whereas you don't you shouldn't need to. and Sarah: No. Trevor Holland: you and you shouldn't have to announce every time you do something that might be attributed to your neurodivergence. It's like well, Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: it is interwoven into the very DNA of every part of your your your l your life and your personality. Do you need to define it to people? Or or do you just do you? But then but you might Sarah: I know. Trevor Holland: you might you might feel less uncomfortable if I tell you that this is the reason why I just told you everything I should that I Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: would what was the th can you tell me the thing that you overshared? Make it even overshare it even more. Sarah: Yeah, because we were talking about emotional recall and one of the guys asked about like, how do you cry on cue? And I was just like, I can cry anyway. I can just cry right now. and so I s I said to my tutor, because they were all talking about it, and he says, we want to do a class on emotional recall and we can and like we can sit in groups and like and talk about like memories and how how you can cry. And I just went, but what if you can just cry anyway? And my teacher was what what do you mean? And I went, so what happened, what what it is is so we're going through a really sad time at the moment. and some some something's going on with my brother's dog, and I went, and on the way here, I just started crying and I went because I was just really sad about that, and I was crying on the way here and I went, so probably this is just too much information, isn't it? I shouldn't just be telling everybody all this. and yeah, so I was just crying and So I'm ADHD, and this is why I'm telling you this really long story. And and I was just like, just shut the fuck up. Just why are you saying this? Like nobody needs to know this. Like, and so I was just like, so what I do is I just start like thinking about really sad things and I just cry. And that's how I'll do my emotional recall. And I went, and and also when I was younger, I just used to like look and cry in the mirror. And I just used to watch myself Trevor Holland: Huh. Sarah: crying when I was younger. and so mean Anne used to call me a drama queen and so when I was younger I just used to every time I cried I'd go and watch myself in the mirror. I went, so that's probably really helpful. So maybe if you wanted to do that, just watch yourself cry in the mirror. And if you want to do any emotions or anything or practice what you what you're doing with your face, just go and look at yourself in the mirror. And I'm like, shut up, shut up. Like And then my tutor was like, Yeah, that really it's really helpful to go and watch yourself in the mirror and watch your facial expressions and all and going to myself is why did you say all that? Why why why are you sharing all this with people that you've like you you don't know? 'Cause I'd literally just moved to this class like three weeks ago and then I'm telling them that as a child I used to cry in the mirror. Trevor Holland: That's really interesting to me. Like to me I'm like, yeah, that's that's if y if I was in the room and you hm. Sarah: I also told them sorry, Trev, I also told them that I I spoke to my therapist about this that that I used to cry in the mirror. I've spoken to my therapist tha about this and apparently it's really normal. Trevor Holland: You see, I don't see the issue with any of what you just said. That's the problem, isn't it? I I Sarah: I I I do because nobody needs to know that. Like strangers. Trevor Holland: Yeah, maybe. Sarah: And now I've just told everyone on the pod. Hi guys. Trevor Holland: Maybe, but I'm like that's the thing with with with with people like us, people like me. It's like if if if I was in that class with you and you would and you told me all that, I'd be like, All right, yeah. And I wouldn't even for a second have gone, Why did she fucking tell us that? I would've been like I'd have been like, Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: That's a really interesting tid bit that I've just learned about Sarah. I feel like I know Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: her better now. That's great and I'm really grateful for that and I would have been just like cool. I wouldn't have even thought about it. So I suppose that's when you know when you're with your people or not. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: when you get someone who goes, okay. Or you've got Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: people that people like me like, And what else? Sarah: Yeah, yeah, true, yeah. But like this is what I say to people about like when they they start using a wheelchair, they're like, I'm so I'm so like uncomfortable, like I don't know how to start using a wheelchair and like stuff like that. And I always say, when you start using a wheelchair and you're going outside, you're seeing these strangers for like two seconds, you're never gonna see them again, you don't care what they think about ya. Like so If you if you see a stranger, do you go home and think about that stranger because you don't even know what they what they look like, what they were wearing, you can't remember them. So how are they gonna remember you in your wheelchair? You're never gonna remember them. And so I need to be more in that thought process about what I say to people, because I'm like, the majority of people aren't gonna remember the things that I've said to them unless it's like something really mean or like it's affected them. Do you know what I mean? Like Trevor Holland: I mean, they're certainly not gonna do what you're gonna do, which is think about it every day in the shower for the next forty years. I mean you you'll do that but they won't. At all. And that's Sarah: Yeah. Forty years, yeah. Exactly. Trevor Holland: yeah, that's a good thing to remind yourself of though, because because when you let w when things just live rent f I don't really like the phrase live rent free in your head, but in this oc on this occasion it's it's it's relevant. You're you're letting that thing live in your head forever. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: Why? It's it's Sarah: I know. Trevor Holland: it's the only person it's affecting is you. No one else who is involved Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: in that situation even e it hasn't registered because it's almost it's an almost it's almost an arrogance of where you kind of put more importance on on what you've done than you need to. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Trevor Holland: because you you think it's a significant moment, but no one else gives a fuck. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah, they've probably all forgot about it. Like five minutes after I've said it and I'm like, the thing I said was just it was it was so worthy of like they're all going home now and crying in the mirror. Trevor Holland: yeah. That why did you think why Sarah: They thought they've gone home and sobbed because of something I said. Trevor Holland: why did you do that, do you think? Why did you think you looked at yourself in the mirror when you were crying? Sarah: I don't know. Like I I just always got s told that I was a drama queen and I have no idea why it does it. I mean I am. Trevor Holland: Think you wanted y you think you wanted to see what it looked like? Sarah: Maybe. Trevor Holland: So you wanted to see what other people see when they see you cry? Or it helps you to be more kind of Sarah: I think it I think it I think it think in some ways I just look kind of I didn't like showing emotion as a child in front of anyone. So I'd take myself away and just cry alone. And I think it was a way of comforting myself in some strange way. Because I grew up with my grandparents, with my mum and my grandparents. And then even when my grandparents died, I didn't cry. And my grandparents were everything to me. And even when they died, I took myself off and cried alone. And I didn't cry at the funerals, I wore massive sunglasses and took myself away and cried again. I don't do that now. I cr I'm very freely cry. Like it's not like I've got an issue with crying or anything, but I used to when I was younger. So don't know, it's just a straightened drawn. Trevor Holland: It is interesting though when we talk when you talk about emotional recall as an actor, because it is thing it is a thing that a l that a lot of actors will struggle with and there are kind of workarounds to to to make it more convincing that you're you look like you're crying when you're not. And I see lots of people acting where they're crying but not no tears are happening whatsoever. Sarah: Yeah. I say that all the time when I'm watching TV. I'm like, they're not e they're not there's no ev there's not even any tears. I'm like, what you what are you doing? Yeah, and it's it it Trevor Holland: Yeah. You can see it you can see it a mile off. Sarah: frustrates me. I'm like you can use tear sticks. I'm like, if you can't do it, use a tear sick. Trevor Holland: Yeah, but but it is something that a lot of actors f find difficult to do and rightly or wrongly for some reason in some areas it it's seen as like a a yardstick to measure how good an actor somebody is as to whether they can cry or not. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: but it is still a skill that you've got, I think, to be able to just 'cause you could say like, yeah, to think about something sad that's happened and and it'll make you cry and like I can do it. Sarah: No. No. Trevor Holland: I c I can't do that shit. Well I'm not an actor, but I couldn't if you asked me to. Sarah: No, it is it's very it's very difficult. Trevor Holland: but you were talking just like it's not difficult. So you do find it hard to do it. right, right. Sarah: It's very difficult. No, I know. I mean I no, it's difficult for other people. I mean, like I yeah, yeah, yeah. It's obviously difficult for other people. Like it's not it's just not difficult for me. It's just one of the like I could probably probably start doing it soon if I wanted to. Like I just think Trevor Holland: I'm not gonna Sarah: of s I could think of something sad and it's Trevor Holland: I'm not gonna ask you today. Sarah: My eyes are well enough. but yeah, like it's just one of them things that I can do. But then there's other things that I obviously can't. Like I have to think of I I'll I'll have to look at my face in a mirror to do a certain expression because I don't know what my face is doing. But then I'm but then also in my acting t tutor says that I've got one of the most expressive faces and I don't even when I'm talking, like I don't know that my face is doing that. Trevor Holland: You are an absolute godsend for people like me. and maybe this is why I like talking to you as much as I do. And why I didn't enjoy talking to you on the phone as much as I talked as much as I enjoy talking to you on camera. Sarah: Ha ha ha. Trevor Holland: I do I did enjoy talking to on the phone, but your face just telegraphs it so clearly Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: to me that I don't have to second guess. I don't have to analyse and think wha how do you feel about what I've just said? Unless you're really good Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: at pretending. But I'm like, yeah, because you you y you are. But you are Sarah: I am an actor. Trevor Holland: well fucking expressive with your face. Honest to Christ, you really are. Sarah: Yeah, like yeah, I I I I I I get that. But like my my my friend said to me we were at the Southport Flower Show in August and we were we were just going round and he went to me, Are you having a good time? And I went, Yeah, why? And he went, Tell your face. And I was like, What? And I looked at my face in my phone and I pulled the exact and I just like I was having a Trevor Holland: Yeah, yeah. Sarah: lovely, I was having a lovely day. Like an absolutely lovely day. I was, I was enjoying it. Like I was there as pressed. I was taking photos and stuff. But I was like But because I Trevor Holland: Do that. Sarah: wasn't we like we weren't we were just wandering around, you know? I mean I'm taking photos and I didn't I wasn't talking to anybody so I wasn't and that's just my natural little bitch face, you know. Trevor Holland: Yeah. I just Sarah: It's like what am I doing? But if I'm speaking or if I'm engaging with someone, I am very, very expressive. But like I don't n naturally know what my face is doing when I'm not speaking Trevor Holland: I'm Sarah: because that I am a little bit of a bitch. Trevor Holland: I'm not expressive enough. Well no, fuck that. There's no not enough. Not in not in this little club of ours. I'm not very expressive. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: that was the first thing that th on my f on my first my first Sarah: Excuse me. Trevor Holland: autism assessment a couple of years ago is the one of the first things that they picked up on when I read the assessment report is that I have a very monotone way of talking and I I don't really I don't really fluctuate in my cadence or anything. I've I'm almost robotic in the way I speak and I'd never Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: I'd never considered that as a thing. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: but then someone called me out on it and I'm like, Maybe I am. And then when I started doing this podcast and I started looking at my face and I'm realising I I look confused. Sarah: Ha ha Trevor Holland: annoyed, like there's a bad smell in the room. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: like I'm I'd rather be anywhere but here and maybe a little bit sad. Sarah: Mm. Trevor Holland: But at the time I'm like I'm like you at the flower show, I'm having a lovely time. But my face does not show that. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, you've what faces not saying it, yeah. Trevor Holland: And something that my wife Sarah comments commented on a long time ago was when I don't understand something that someone has said to me and I go, What what do you mean? I feel like I'm going, sorry, what what what do you mean? Could you I thought I feel like that's what I'm doing, but Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: she says, That's not what you do. You go, What? What what do you mean? Sarah: That's what my boyfriend's also. Trevor Holland: And and I thought, fuck off, I don't do that. But then I watched back an episode that I did with the Sarah Tone in Diaries where she was saying that her and I were Biffles as like a a thing that meant BFFs for life and Australianism that I'd never heard before. and I said and I thought I was saying sorry, what do you mean by that? I said, What? What do you mean? I don't know what you're talking about. And I'm like, What the fuck? Are you so angry? And I thought, but I wasn't Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: So Apparently I do have a really unnerving like because Sarah says to me, like, when you s when you do that, I feel really on the spot that I need to explain myself Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: really clearly. And then I start stumbling over my words and it perpetuates Sarah: Mm-hmm. Trevor Holland: a problem that I can't be clear, and then you get more and angry. I'm like, I'm not angry though. I just I'm just I'm just inquisitive. Like, no, you're an arsehole, like no. So yeah, it turns out that People that don't know me, if I don't Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: understand what you've said, you're gonna think I'm wanna fucking chin you. But I'm just well I just I don't know this stuff about myself. You don't know until Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: you see it. So yeah. I'm But sometimes I feel like I need to learn to be more more expressive or I need to be less monotone. And I'm like, why? Just just just say say the things you say the way you say them. You're you're forty-three years old. Why are you suddenly gonna decide now in middle age I'm gonna completely do a three do a one eighty and and try and change my personality? There's a reason why I do the I I I'm I'm I am the way I am. And this is what h this whole exercise has been about from diagnosis to now has been I am what I fucking am and I need Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: to stop apologizing for it. I need to stop making excuses for it. I need to stop placating the general public. I just need to be comfortable or learn to be comfortable with what I am, what I bring to the table, and just be. But I'm not finding it very easy to do it. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: Is that something you when you were diagnosed, did you go through a period of like r right, this is my opportunity now to just be me and not give a shit? Or you know, what was your experience? 'Cause I can't we've talked about it, I can't remember. Sarah: Yeah, I think I I think I'd already I didn't really need the I I did need the validation of the diagnosis, but I'd already like accepted like a self-diagnosis of my ADHD because I just and I just knew like Trevor Holland: What? Sarah: because I I was I went through like h helping my nephew get diagnosed and when he was diagnosed I was like well when we were going through his diagnosis, I was like this is me. And it was just like I was just saying, you know, I think I've got ADHD as well. but then when I was getting the autism on, I got I had I ended up having that assessment first. And I was like, shit, or I tick loads of these boxes as well. and then that that assessment that that was a lot more difficult for me. and that still sits a bit more difficult with me. And accepting that, but it's I can't remember your question. Trevor Holland: It was whether you whether you had a similar experience to me where you felt as though you needed to become a little bit less apologetic about who you are once you were diagnosed. I guess not, based on what you said the other day, or what you said about the other day, where you explained yourself when you overshared. Sarah: Yeah. I think I just just got on with it really. Yeah. And I just Trevor Holland: Was it Sarah: was like, come on. Trevor Holland: Did it did it not feel like a big life changing experience for you when you got diagnosed or was it 'cause it's different for everybody. Sarah: Yeah, it didn't it didn't it didn't really because I just was just I kind of just knew. And I've always I've always felt I've always felt something. And I o and and I always fe s I don't know how to explain this now. I always felt like there was something always going on with my brain. And then how can you explain to somebody? Or how can you ask somebody, does your brain do this? Because it's not it's not a question that you can you can ask somebody because it's not you think that everybody's brain does that. And it's like, I remember being a kid and like I don't know whether we spoke about this last time. Listening to listening to a Dido album. Somebody say somebody saying to me, go asleep listening to music. And it really, it really helps me. and so I I I I put headphones on to try and go asleep listening to music. And my mates were like, So it's so relaxing. I just fall asleep listening to music. And I was like, yeah, yeah, okay, I'll try that. And I stayed awake all night singing the same same fucking sat Dido song the whole night. And I was like, how the hell can anybody do this? This is not relaxing in the whole at all. Like this is absolute fucking torture. And I was like, please don't call them onto my window the whole night. And I was just like, I I hate, Trevor Holland: Ha ha ha. Sarah: I hate Dido. Right. Dido was dead to me. Right. And I was just like woke up the next morning and was like, How did you sleep? I was like, I didn't. I didn't sleep. I'm excellent. So you've got to go to school now. And I was like on pins. And then me my friends were like, how did you get did you go to sleep listening to music? No. But you can't say to somebody, like you know, I just I just played the song over and over in my head. Is that normal? Like, can you just did you just sing the song over and over and over and over and over. Are you insane as well? Like, is that not normal? And then all these other things, like I I I'd go to like me friends to to study and they'd listen to music and I'd just ended up writing a writing the title when we were trying to do uni work. I just sit in there writing the title and they'd all be doing their the uni work. And I couldn't I couldn't focus because all I'd be doing was singing the songs or dancing around because I couldn't focus. But you can't say to somebody Does your brain do this? Is this normal? Because You think that's the way everyone's brain works? Trevor Holland: Right. You think excuse me, you think everyone has the same experience and yet you are then you're asking yourself so how come they can cope with it so much better than me? Rather rather than Sarah: Yeah. So why aren't they doing it? Yeah. Trevor Holland: and so that's that's where the the self hatred starts because you're though everyone is going through life with the same set of tools and yet I am a am a wimp Or I'm I'm lesser because I I can't be as breezy as these people. Because you don't realise. Sarah: Yeah. I'm like, they they yeah, if I'm like they they can they can listen to music and type. I must be fucking shit. I can't I can't research, type, listen to music, concentrate. mentioning this to anybody. I'll just pretend. So it's fine. Like and then you don't want to like say like what is like some kind of superpower that you've got because like and so I just used to think like it's it's fine. There's nothing going on. But then as soon as and I didn't even know enough about ADHD. I didn't know that that was like that was what happened with ADHD. And so That when I look were looking looking into it for my nephew, because my nephew was getting the he's so naughty in class, he won't sit down in class, he won't he's like disruptive, he's naughty. I was like, My nephew is not naughty, he's the best child in the whole entire world. he's literally sunshine and light, light, he's perfect. and so we looked into ADHD forum and shock horror, the child literally bouncing off every single wall. He stands on my mum's table and pretends he's a helicopter. and shock horror the child is ADHD on acid and when we were looking into that I was just like fuck is that me and it just clicked so many like ticks so many boxes and I was like That's why I can't research and listen to music. And all these other Trevor Holland: Do you Sarah: things. Trevor Holland: do you have the the soundtrack? Even if you're not listening to music? Do you have a the the a c a c regard it Sarah: A constant a constant song in my head, yeah? Trevor Holland: diff it doesn't it's in and do you ever do the why the fuck is it this song? Sarah: Yes. The other day I was singing a hymn in my song in my head and I don't even fucking go to church, I'm an atheist. Singing in the valleys, shouted from the mountain tops. I was like, what the fuck are you doing? That was from primary school? Trevor Holland: It's mad. And but and again, I thought that was just everyone's experience. I thought everyone's got an earworm because I I I hear about the term earworm and I don't realise that it's not quite the same for everybody. When people talk about earworms, they talk about I heard a song the other day and then that song was then in my head for for the a few hours afterwards. And that's kind of but but that's not our experience. Our experience is Sarah: No. Trevor Holland: we will we have a jukebox in our head But we have no control over what song's gonna play next, or how many times that song's gonna play and for how long. Sarah: Yeah. Yes. And then I used to have another song that I would try and try and sing to get that song out of my head. So I'd sing that other song. It was fucking John Bon Jovi's That's My Life. I don't know why. I'd sing that to try and get the other song out of my head. And then I'd be and then I'd get pissed off with that song and I'd just be like, and I don't even know I don't know why it'd be Bon Jovi's that's that. But it just used to get the other song out of my ad and then I get annoyed with that song. Trevor Holland: Yeah. You have an antidote, you have an anti anti venom song that Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: and but mine but mine changes because I I get I don't even I can't even remember what my current antidote song is, but I have to change it quite regularly because I get bored of the antidote song Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: and it loses its potency because you need it to be pa Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: you need it you need it to be a song that you love so that as soon as you start thinking about it, it can immediately overpower the other song. It can Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: remove it from your brain and you're like, yeah, and you're just really enjoying Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: that song. And then you're just able for some reason you're kind of able to to just let it fade out in its natural way. But then it loses its ability to do that. So do you ever get the thing when you have it's almost a physical sensation where you can feel the other song fighting back. What the fuck is that? Sarah: Yes. So the the the the the other day this this hymn came into my into my head because we went to Yorkminster. Shocker. and I told my brother that that's where I was. So he got this the h the hymn into my head and then the hymn came out of my head like the day later and then I opened the text to my brother and it came back and I was like you does fuck you 'cause it he I opened the text and he reminds it him reminded me of the hymn. So the song had left like in at midnight or something. And then I was woke up the next day, everything was fine. Song was gone. And then like six o'clock the next day, I opened the text to him and it was singing in the valley. So I was like, nah Trevor Holland: But what about when you've when you've got your antidote song on the go? But then y you so and you you end up in a situation where you've got the jeweling banjos at the same time. You've got the two songs running side by side. So your antidote's like trying to fight back and then you can just feel the other one coming. If you let me in a collater, fuck off Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: and it's just it's like and it's just g you can feel them just like hitting each other Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: and you're like, I I don't want the fucking gladiate a gladiator battle in my head between these two songs. And Sarah: Viral. Yeah. Trevor Holland: it's sometimes a third one will come in as well. Sarah: No gas Yeah. Trevor Holland: And it but and it's like that is what it's like all the time. It's twenty four hours a day. There's some sort of song. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's horrific. Trevor Holland: I thought everyone did that. Sarah: No. But this is what I mean. These things go on in your head. And then as like you're growing up it when you late diagnosed, or even as a probably as a kid, like you you can't how do you explain these we this weird shit that is happening in here to someone else when you don't know about ADHD or or or autism? How do you explain that? Th that song bullshit to someone else. Trevor Holland: So the the the playing of the song in your head, even though you have no control over it, that is taking up resources in your in your RAM, right? Then you've got other resources being committed to trying to fight back against that song with your anti-venom song. And then you've got other parts of your brain trying really desperately hard to try and filter out all the other stimulus that's going on around you. That's overwhelming. And then you're trying to focus even more energy on trying to just reserve enough energy to still be able to absorb stuff that's going on that you need to know, like like your teacher tr giving you a lesson. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: And is it any wonder that we're so fucking tired when Sarah: And I'm Trevor Holland: all of these background apps are running and just s so sucking up resources like nobody's business? And you still are expected to just be and do do the stuff. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Trevor Holland: And is it any wonder why that one thing too many happens, that one bit of stimulation that is just a that just knocks you over the edge where it's like you I've got my two songs playing in my head. I'm trying to concentrate on something. I'm doing the washing up. I'm already worried about something else. There's a fli there's a flashing light in a house opposite that's annoying me. I can I can feel some vibration on the floor like someone about four doors down is doing some washing. And then my wife walks in and just brushes past me. How dare you brush past me. That's the one thing that has then topped me, tipped me over the edge, and now I'm overstimulated. But for her, it's just they've seen me she's seen me in silence doing the washing up and she has the audacity to touch me. She's like, and Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Trevor Holland: she's like, Why are you such a you you're one fucking irrational cunt? This n this conversation doesn't happen, obviously, but that must be her feeling. And I'm like, but you've just tipped me over the edge of all the other thousand things that are happening. So it must be s so it's hard for us, but it's hard for the people that live with us as well. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Trevor Holland: It's really hard. Shit. So yeah, I didn't know anything about the internal soundtrack not being something that everyone experiences until very recently. Sarah: I know. Trevor Holland: Yeah. shit. Where's my brain? Sarah: In your head, hopefully. Trevor Holland: How often do you forget what you're saying midway through the sentence? Sarah: my god, all the time. Trevor Holland: What do you do? Sarah: And then I I usually swear. Trevor Holland: I retrace my steps. Sarah: I get and I I try and do that. or I'll just go, what was this? Like I did before with you when you when I was like, what was the question again? Trevor Holland: Mm. Sarah: but yeah, I I used I used to get really pissed off when I was in uni because I'd be like making a really like good, relevant point and then I'd be like and it so it'd be like 'cause I studied literature, so it'd be like, and yeah, so she the and the the protagonist was whatever. And then I'd be like, yeah, and she was just shit because I I'd just like forget what I was gonna say and it was just like And now I look like a dick. Because I was gonna make Trevor Holland: Do ever do the thing where do you ever do the thing where you you you the point you're gonna make and you're so excited about this point that you're gonna make, but you've got to wait your turn to say it, but then you're you but Sarah: I hate it. Trevor Holland: then you're you're really, really worried because you can feel it ebbing away. Sarah: Okay. Yeah. Trevor Holland: You can feel it leaving, and you're like, No, no, no, no, no, no. Just wait a few more seconds because they're gonna they're gonna finish talking any second now and then you get to say the thing. So think, think, think, think, think, think. But then inevitably you forget it and you're so pissed off because the thing you were gonna say to you was gonna set the world alight and make everyone who hears it light world view completely turn on its head because it's so profound, but it's not. Sarah: Okay. Trevor Holland: but it's gone forever, you think, but then maybe a few hours later, when the moment's completely passed, it comes back. Sarah: Hate that. Trevor Holland: Do you try to reignite the conversation or or do you ever like to text the person and say, by the way, this is the thing I was going to say earlier on, or Jesus let it die. But do you d so after the fact do you go back in and go like, This is the thing I was gonna say earlier? Sarah: No, and it it's never never if it's an argument 'cause I don't ever start start up an argument. But like n no, I don't think I I don't think I have but I Trevor Holland: I do every time. Sarah: do ya? Trevor Holland: Every time I remember it, no matter how much time has passed. Sometimes it'll be a few days later and they can't even remember the other parts of the conversation. by the way, do you remember that thing we were saying the other day? This is Sarah: no Trevor Holland: the point I was gonna make. Sarah: Yeah, actually yeah I have done that. yeah, no, yeah. not if it's days, but it by the way, such and such said this. Yeah, yeah, I have done that. But then I do I d I interrupt people a lot 'cause I wanna say something. Did it last night in class. 'Cause this lad was a i 'cause th this gu this lad was saying something about God, I can remember exactly what he looked like and everything, but what did he say? He said something about he was and and you were on the 'cause one of the guys was pretending he was he was acting like he was on a golf course and you went and and your scene partner was just looking around and he was he was looking for like you should have been looking as if s if stuff was like things were there and I went, yeah, like golf balls and stuff. And he was like, yeah, yeah and I was like, Well obviously 'cause he was on a on a golf course, like Trevor Holland: Mm. Sarah: I was like, well, what else would he be looking at? Do you know what I mean? Even but yeah, like seagulls and leaves. I was why would he be looking why would he be looking for leaves? Trevor Holland: It's y you hit on a point that is is is is massive for me. It's it's it's logic, it's unrelenting, forensic logic that I am under the impression that everyone should follow. Everyone should have the same sense of things making making sense, being in the being in a certain order and making logical sense. it seems like a no brainer for me that this A equals E A leads to B leads to C and these things just that is that is it. And Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: when people don't see it, you're like, what the fuck is wrong with you? But but but it's I don't I it's really hard to articulate this. It's just it's just I s it I think it's a it's an autistic pattern recognition thing. Yeah, we have a certain adeptness to to to to patterns and logic and stuff like that. But also we we need things to make perfect sense to us. Otherwise it's just mind blowing. So we w really need pe people to explain things properly. And when people aren't very good at explaining themselves Sarah: I have to interrupt. I have Trevor Holland: Uh-huh. Sarah: to. That's when I have to 'cause like so that's that's my ADHD an autism meeting because like Trevor Holland: Mm-hmm. Sarah: I I so I I'm I've I've noticed since I've been on my medication because I I always interrupted constantly. So I've noticed since being on my medication that I will stick take a step back and not interrupt as much because my family are all very ADHD and when they're together, they're just constantly overlapping and it stresses me out. So I will sit back and let them talk and will take my turn and it frustrates. the fuck out of me, but I'm very calm about it when I'm there and I take my anger out on my boyfriend when I go home. I'm like But when somebody is wrong No, I can't handle it. So I started a screenwriting course on Monday and I know the tutor. I've done a class with him before. and we all went round and said how much how much screenwriting we'd done before or whatever and what we experience we'd had. And a few of them said they'd had non exper no experience whatsoever. and then One one of the people was saying, So in screenwriting, you write about their expressions and what characters are wearing, the the the when you raise an eyebrow and stuff like that and Adam the tutor was like no no no you write about it's it's about the story it's about the story and stuff like this and the guy was like yeah yeah so you write about like you know the kind what they're wearing and like their age and all this and I was just like and Adam was like no no no it's about it's about story screenwriting's about story and the guy wasn't getting it and he went no no and he was like yeah so you write about like Whole setting and what they're doing and and he's like, No, it's about stor it's about the story. And I just went, if you want to write a novel, you write a novel. Screenwriting is not about that. It's not it's not about like what they're wearing and stuff like that, it's about the dialogue and it's about like it it's it do you know what I mean? It it you're talking about a novel, you wanna write a novel. And then Adam looked at and was like, he got the impression that everyone on the screenwriting course knew what screenwriting was. And he was he was like making like saying story as if like it was like a poetic metaphoric metaphorical thing, do you know what I mean? And this guy thought screenwriting was writing a book. With just and it was just dialogue and then adding all the shit to it, you know what I mean? And I got to the point where I was just like Yeah. Trevor Holland: And this is a good thing, right? We have the ability to to to break the thing down into its component parts and then present that back to Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: them. So this person who just wasn't getting it, you said the same thing in a slightly different way, in a simpler way. And that's that's so y you become frustrated with the person who doesn't get it and frustrated with the person who can't explain it. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah, 'cause he thought he clearly th sorry, he clearly thought that he knew what we were all there for. Like, you know what screenwriting's for 'cause you're here. But the guy didn't know. Didn't know. So I was just like I'll tell ya. Trevor Holland: In his defense, it's a mistake that I made initially when I was first doing my screenwriting with with my tutor is I had a tendency to overexplain. I had a tendency to set the scene way too in way too much detail. And she said she said the same thing to me. She said, You're trying to write a fucking novel here, stop it. You're moving the story along, you're setting the scene, certainly, but you're not going into the minutest detail of what everyone's face is doing, w exactly where everyone's standing. You're setting the scene, so you need to learn economy of words, and get to the the crux of the matter, which is move the story forward with every scene, every and every moment of every scene has to has to progress the story forward and has to has to justify its existence. If if you're gonna talk about this close-up shot on a doorknob, Don't unless that's so important to the story and without it it's not gonna make sense. But otherwise, leave that shit out. And it was actually quite hard for me to to do that because I wasn't right I felt like, but if I don't write that, then how is the actor, how's the director, how are these people gonna know what to do? But they're gonna know what to do if you write the story well enough. And also you've got to understand that when you're a screenwriter, you're not writing a final version of anything. You you're gonna have to leave leave a lot of room for interpretation from producers and directors and from actors who are gonna take the source material you've given them and they're gonna make something from it. They're not gonna they're Sarah: Exactly. Trevor Holland: not gonna make the thing that you've got in your head and it's not gonna resemble it very much in mo most likelihood. so that was a hard lesson for me, so I kind of sympathise with that guy a little bit, but also listen to what the fucking guy's saying. Sarah: Yeah. And also I come at it from a different angle as well because I've seen shitloads of scripts. So I was like, he the guy's it's his first ever lesson and he's never seen probably a script before. I've seen loads. So I was just like Adam hadn't explained it in like the it's a story. Like everything can be a story, so Trevor Holland: Yeah. You enjoying the course though? Sarah: Yeah, the first last one was really good. I enjoyed it. So ten weeks. So yeah, should be good. Trevor Holland: I spent I think it was yeah, it must have been around about a year working with this script editor, Yvonne Grace, who has been she's she's a script consultant and editor now. and shooter, she spent years cutting her teeth on the likes of East Enders and other things like that and Holby City stuff. She's she she's she's been around the block. She's she's fantastic. She does not take any prisoners. She will and she's the exactly the kind of person I need in my life when she will say, What the fuck are you doing? In in the nicest possible way. What the fuck are doing? This is shit. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: This is stupid. What you're saying right now is stupid. You're like, yeah it isn't it W what was really important to me was one, learning how to write, because I was arrogant enough to think that I knew how to write already. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Trevor Holland: I didn't. I knew how to write dialogue very she said that from the outset that I was very good at writing convincing dialogue and I think that comes from comes from my neurodivergence probably because of how we construct dialogue. in our daily lives and we write our Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: we write our own dialogue, right? We don't just say the dialogue, we write our dialogue every day. And Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: because we observe the way people interact, it makes us naturally predisposed to actually be have a bit of an advantage when it comes to what sort of thing would that person say in that situation. We can characterize much more easily, I think. I'm being general here, I'm not sure if it's the same for you necessarily, but I feel like I can create a character that's fully formed much more easily than someone else might be able to. Because and I know what's consistent to that character and what isn't. And that person wouldn't say it and they certainly wouldn't say it like that. They would say Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: it like this. And you know that person really well. So I was good at that, but I was not good at at writing visually. I was Not good at being economical with with with my words. I wasn't good at structure. There's so much to consider when it comes to screenwriting that you don't really think about. You just think you're gonna write a story and then you're gonna write it into a script format which just says who says what and when. But there's so much to it, and it's actually almost forensic the level of detail you have to go into to structure it in a certain way. I couldn't write for shit, it turned out, but she taught me how to write. And in typical style, I've done very little with that knowledge since I spent thousands of pounds on on learning how to write. I've got two two pilots which I've done nothing with and I've got a third that I keep telling myself I'm gonna finish and haven't. And that's why I was so fascinated the other day when you talked about how you're you're doing doing the course but you've you've written stuff before and you're working on something with a mate of yours as well, I'm like, Holy shit, let's fucking let's talk about that a bit as well. Because I like Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: I don't have anyone else in my life who who does anything around that. And I I feel so sorry for my Sarah because every time I do write, I give her my script and say, Read this, please. But what she'll what I won't tell her is This is the bit that I've changed, this is the bit that I've added. So I'll give her the whole script again and expect her to read the whole script again. So what do you think of this version of it? And then the next day I'll give her one where maybe I've changed two fucking words in it and say, What do you think of this? I just fucking read this yesterday. Sarah: Ha ha ha. Trevor Holland: But yeah, it's fun though, isn't it? Do you do you enjoy putting putting stories together? Sarah: Yeah, I love it after this since I was a kid. Trevor Holland: Do you find because I listen to to well known writers talking about the process of writing and a lot of them say they enjoy having written. They enjoy the project that they've have written, but they don't enjoy writing the project because it's so torturous. It can be so painful and difficult and co and really confusing in an emotional roller coaster. Do you go through those feelings when you're writing? Sarah: Yeah, sometimes. It's laborious 'cause you have to edit and and it's it's n the first the you the first draft is never the it's never gonna be the end result, is it? It's just typing. Trevor Holland: It's gonna have such a tenuous resemblance to the final product. The first version of my first pilot versus the version that I actually th think is is industry ready. It's basically got the same premise and most of the characters have got the same name. But that's it. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: Like the if the the log line would be similar. The log line would have had a similar kind of this is the this is this person, this person's going through this journey. But all the stuff that happens is completely different. I I find it incredibly confusing and I said this to Yvonne during during the course of my learning is that I love solving puzzles. Because you know, I like logic and I like pattern recognition. I love solving puzzles. But it becomes very difficult to solve a puzzle when the puzzle is being created by you as well. And that is what this situ when when you're writing, you're you're you're you're trying to solve a puzzle of your own making. So how where do you go to get help? Because you've created Sarah: Yeah. I know. Trevor Holland: this problem and you need to solve that problem. And then it's like I don't know what to do or how to do this. And you're and Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: and you'll drive yourself crazy till eventually you're like, I tell you how you if it's this hard to fix, it's because it doesn't work. You need to make it work and that means sometimes starting again. Or or or undoing a lot of work because you're trying to s crowbar something in that just isn't working. I'll tell you one thing. I know I'm rambling, but I'll tell you one thing what Th the the obsession with logic really helps me. I don't know about you, but when I'm writing, my shit is watertight, my friend. There is not a plot hole to be found because I'm so obsessed with things making sense that I will not ever allow a plot hole or an inconsistency to happen. What about you? Sarah: Yeah, I I I'm very meticulous. I always have been. I just I just like to I d I'm just a bit of a pep that perfectionist. And then I'll get I'll get my boyfriend's a writer as well, so he likes to read he'll he'll read things for me. But I like to read everything out loud and make sure I act it. Trevor Holland: I had to learn to do that because I wasn't doing it. Sarah: I think if you don't read it out loud it just doesn't it doesn't work. Trevor Holland: Doesn't. Because y there there are things that you will never notice when you're sitting there just literally reading it to yourself, in your head. You'll think this Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: is perfect. The second you make the sounds with your mouth, you're like, that's fuck it. What the fuck's that? It's mad. Sarah: Yeah. Sounds stupid. Yeah. Yeah. Trevor Holland: Do you ever get actors to workshop your scripts. Do you ever just sit people down and say, right, let's let's let's have let's let's actually do a read of this and see how it Sarah: I haven't yeah, it's because I haven't like come finished anything. I don't I'm not great at finishing things. but there's I don't know what it's called. There's like a thing at in in Liverpool called the Liverpool Scratch Network. And they have they have writers, artists, and directors put on 10 minute things every month. and they have like five, it's they have five on. don't know why I did that because you don't know what five is. so there's Trevor Holland: Mm-hmm. Sarah: five. so you you do like ten minutes of like a a play, a TV show, a film or whatever. and you can submit your work and then like th they put it on there. It's at the everyman. and so I'm gonna hopefully submit to there and then and people go and watch them. Trevor Holland: to do that I think. Yeah. Sarah: So it's like in the theater. Yeah. Trevor Holland: I think I I want to do that with the next thing that I write or the next thing that I finish. Because Sarah: But you're like I just sorry, I just go and just watch them 'cause it and Trevor Holland: Mm. Sarah: it's it's like a networking thing as well. It's so good. Trevor Holland: I can hate networking. I really hate it. Sarah: Yeah, I know, but you'll have to you have to. Trevor Holland: Is there a way to not Sarah: Ha ha Trevor Holland: Is there a way you can get away with not networking ever? Sarah: I mean Trevor Holland: I love the idea of being this lone wolf creator who doesn't need anyone else. Sarah: I mean, you well, y you're not there, are ya? Because that's how we've kind of met. Trevor Holland: I know. It makes no sense. But I feel like what do I really need to Sarah: You're at su you're such an absolute knobhead. Like we've met and then I've introduced you to other people. You're such a tit. You've literally networked. Trevor Holland: Yeah, okay. But let me let me Sarah: Like I'm gonna be a lone wolf. Trevor Holland: let me reframe it. What I mean I think is thank you. Real life IRL Sarah: Okay. Do you mean going outside and networking? Okay. Trevor Holland: networking. Sarah: Right, okay. Yeah. I mean I I the fit okay, so the first one I went to, the first scratch I went to, I went and I sat in the corner sat in the corner on my own. And I was just I sat there and I sat there with my little water like this. And I didn't talk to anyone. And I'm sat in the wheelchair. I was sad on you. And I must have looked like such a sad out, right? And some fella came over to him and he was like, Are you okay? And I was like, I'm fine, thanks. And he was like, Are you well on your own? was like, Yeah, my friends are supposed to come with me, but he didn't come. And he was like, So are you a are you an artist? I was like, Yeah, I'm an actor and I'm a writer. And and then he just like spoke to me and then he introduced me to his wife and his wife told me she had dogs and started showing me pictures of her dogs. I was fucking buzzing then. So it's just like sounds, I'm saying with you. And then he starts introducing me to other people. So the next time he made came Whitney and I was boss. I was like, I was going through it was Whitney Me I was like, Alex, this is this, this is sort of and I like, The fucking beesnees and introducing everyone. I was like, Yeah, I've been here before. I yeah. Trevor Holland: I was talking to someone about this. I'm not even sure if it was on the podcast or not, but I went to a I went to a film festival. Yeah, it was. It was on someone else's podcast though. I went to a film festival rec a local one because I'd I'd made a short film that got into the festival and there was a kind of networking day on the on the the first day of the festival that happened to be the day Sarah: Look at your face there's a net way, I confess the whole Trevor Holland: That happened to be on the first day of the festival when they were also showing my film. And so I turned up on my own. And I couldn't have hated it more. And 'cause there are these people, they're just like milling about. And they're just like introducing themselves to each other and like share sharing a coffee and go like, yes, well I I do this thing and I do this thing and I I made this thing and I I'm I'm r I I'm wanking myself off in front of you because you know, they're basically they're they're just f comparing dicks and and Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Trevor Holland: it's like I don't wanna do any of this. Sarah: It Yeah, no it's not it's not like that there at all. Like th that they're all just sad. And where the majority of the Moscow suit the bots need to come off to Liverpool. Trevor Holland: I tell you. I was I was Sarah: No, it is. It's it's it's dead it is, it's dead nice and it's such a good atmosphere and everyone's dead sad. Trevor Holland: I just need yeah, p when people are people are sound it's good. I don't want people being pretentious. I don't want people showing off Sarah: There's also sorry, there's there's also a neurodivergent group as well. Trevor Holland: I mean, look, I know that I need to get myself out there a little bit more and talk to people in the real world. I like this comfortable little corner of the internet that I live in though. And I like the fact that what I'm doing at the moment, I'm doing out of my spare room. I like the fact that I can meet all these people without ever leaving my house. I love it. But then there is a different dynamic to it. When you meet people in real life and you get you get you push yourself a little bit, get out of your comfort zone. I know that things happen and good things can happen as well. It seems like such a faff though. But Sarah: I know. Trevor Holland: yeah. fuck, what was I gonna say? I saw something and I don't know how long ago you actually did it, but I was looking on was it your TikTok? It must have been. And you talked about what was the kind of what's the most ADHD thing you've ever done and you talked about how you changed your name by deed poll, your surname and can't remember exactly the circumstances but you ended up in a position where you were just sitting there picking one out of the fucking blue. and you ended up calling yourself because it because it happened to start with A. Sarah: Right, right. So okay, right. Because right. I had I'd wanted to change my last name since I was 18, right? Because Trevor Holland: Yeah. Sarah: I was like about to the point where I was like, I'm I'm probably never gonna get married and I don't want to get stuck with this surname because I ate I I don't have any I don't have I don't have a relationship with the sperm donor and I ate his last name anyway 'cause like When I was younger, I used to write me and my bestie used to write letters to each other and I'd put Sarah, no last name. that's how I'd sign them off. and I was like, I'm not getting married, so I'm not I'm not keeping this name. And so I used to write like I used to come up with loads of these dead nice surnames for myself. I'd be like, Sarah Valentine, Sarah D'Souza. I can remember loads of them, right? like and and they were all great. And then I finally decided I was gonna change it and I forgot every single name, forgot every name. And so I was like, just look up some surnames. Just like and then I got to A and I was fuck it, I can't I can't be about the blockham Trevor Holland: Yeah. Sarah: stream anymore. I just got dead bored, like I couldn't be bothered. And so I just stuck with Alexander. I was like, that sounds nice, sounds regal, just do that. And my mum was like, Why didn't you pick your your dad? Like me, I call him like me set dad, me dad. Why didn't you pick Georgetown? I I didn't even think of that. Trevor Holland: So that's quite a good example, isn't it? Of of the of the way. Sarah: Yeah. So but me by my byline I use when I'm writing a Sarah Alexander George son for me dad. I didn't even it didn't cross my mind. My dad has been my dad since I was twelve. It didn't cross my mind to change it to George. And my mum's Jackie George. It didn't it didn't cross me mind to change it to me satisfy. I I'll I'll just go I'll I I'll go with A. Fuck it. Alexander. I like that. Got my having Trevor Holland: Did you speak to him about it afterwards? Yeah. G to Sarah: Me dad. Yeah, and he went, it's all right, love. Don't worry about it. Trevor Holland: say they felt the need to like, look, this wasn't a personal diss. Sarah: Yeah. I just went, I've changed it to Alexander. he went, that's nice, love, don't worry about it. And I was like, I d I didn't I didn't even think to change it to join don't worry about it, love, don't worry about it. Trevor Holland: that's nice. Sarah: I was like, I'm so sorry. I went I didn't even think and he was just like, It's all right, it's very you thing to do, isn't it, love? Trevor Holland: I love it though. Sarah: It sounds nice, doesn't it? Sounds nice, doesn't it, Art? Trevor Holland: So your legally your name is Sarah Alexander. And Sarah: Sara Alexander. Trevor Holland: you haven't brought your your stepdad's name in but you but you sort of double barrel it informally. Sarah: Yeah, it's my Facebook name, everything, and I just I felt terrible for a while. And I it lit literally didn't cross me like how the f how do I forget that? I forgot I forgot he existed and I got Trevor Holland: Yeah. Sarah: I got but I forgot he existed. I changed it when I was like twenty six, so he'd been in my life when it for like fourteen years and I got bored A. And that is literally me all over. Trevor Holland: At least you got as far as AL though. Sarah: I mean yeah, 'cause I was just like all of the first ones just sounded boring. Like so I was just like Trevor Holland: So you you went s you went straight past like Abel and Adams and all of those and you got a s Sarah: Yeah. that sounds boring doesn't Sarah Adams now. Alexander. It sounds like royalty. Sounds like a queen. Sarah Alexander. Beautiful. Trevor Holland: It is good actually. I like it. Sarah: Sarah Georgeson. It's just a bit boring, isn't it? But Sarah Alexander Georgeon. Trevor Holland: That is good. That's like a like a an ancillary member of the royal family who goes into who goes into acting. Sarah: There you go. Yeah, but it's not it's not my official name. Trevor Holland: and so me watching that TikTok of yours thinking, I wonder what the most ADHD thing is that I've ever done. And it's really difficult to th And unt until it just kind of hits you that moment of inspiration when you remember stuff because there've been thousands of things that I've done in my life that are fucking ridiculous. So Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: when you're put on the spot and you're asked to remember any of them, it's it's very difficult. I think one of them for me was and I to be fair I talked about this on the podcast a few weeks ago, but it's it's I quit uni on on a whim. entirely on a whim. Like I was one day I was second year at uni. Later on that day I was no longer a student. and it's because I went to the cinema and I saw an action movie that was really exciting and I decided I wanted to be an action hero and I quit uni that day. and then I didn't b Sarah: Homose. Trevor Holland: the f the film so this is like two thousand and four, three. It was a film called SWAT. It had Colin with Colin Farrell. Sarah: Yeah, I know it. I used to love swats. Trevor Holland: And it's all right, right? It's an all right film. It Sarah: Yeah, it's good, yeah. Trevor Holland: it's per it's perfectly serviceable. but I went to cinema with Sarah: Did you want to specifically be in SWAT or just an action hero? Trevor Holland: I want to be s I wanna be SWAT. Sarah: Yes, lot. Trevor Holland: I saw the way they were and I'm like, I wanna be that. Sarah: Got in. Trevor Holland: went to cinema with my mates, by the time that film had finished, I'm like and I said to them, Yeah, I'm gonna fuck uni, I'm gonna quit and do that. And they're like, Ha ha ha yeah and I was like, No, no, that's exactly what I'm gonna do. And it's exactly well, I say that's exactly what I did. I managed to do the first part quite easily, which was fuck off uni. and then the reality of becoming SWAT in a country where SWAT doesn't exist. Sarah: But it doesn't exist. I was gonna say how the fuck. Trevor Holland: and when I have no actual desire to be a police officer because I'm complete because I'm because I'm really un unconfrontational, and I'm scared of everybody, but I wanna be an action star. so I applied to be a fireman instead and then nearly became a fireman but fucked the interview because I was I'm not very good at I'm not very good at interviews. I I they told me I was too relaxed 'cause I went into I went in to perform as someone who's calm under pressure. This is way before autism and ADHD diagnoses. So I was like, This is what you do, right? You turn up for an interview and you decide what t what's the type of person that they're gonna want to meet so you become that person. And I thought they're gonna want someone who's really calm under pressure, who shows that they are really unflappable. But basically I turned up to this interview like Yeah, so whatever. I don't know like they th they almost told me they almost kicked me out of the room for being a fucking like I didn't give a shit. So yeah. I didn't become an action star. But that's and I tell you what as well, when I did quit uni it was my mum had to drive me up to Leicester to move my stuff out of the house that I'd shared with my mates, my uni house. And I lived in South London at the time, so she drove me all the way to Leicester and it wasn't until we got to the front door of the house that I realised I hadn't bought the key for the house. so I broke in. I I li I literally kicked the door down and got my stuff out of the house. So, you know, it's it's things like that. It's like go go it Sarah: I mean that's fi that's like a fireman anyway, so yeah. That's an action hero Trevor Holland: Yeah. You know what? I don't Sarah: move anyway. Trevor Holland: I d well I was fully in action mode at that stage. And I I tell you what, I broke that door down without breaking the lock. I don't know how I did it. But I said, Le mum, hold my beer. And I I I went I went up to the door and I shouldered barged it in the p in the sweet spot. The door swung open. Sarah: Was it unlocked, Trev? Yeah. Trevor Holland: No, it wasn't. It wasn't. But I was really impressed with myself 'cause I managed yeah, I just went Sarah: You're Trevor Holland: it just pushed the cunt open. Sarah: And you're like, I probab I probably booted it down. Like the action hero that I was supposed to be. Trevor Holland: shit. Yeah. So there's there's like there's so there's so many things like that. Like just the that that overwhelming desire just to change everything about my life suddenly. Because you just get bored of the status quote. So I change my job or I break up with a girlfriend like just wake up Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: one day and I'm like I'm gonna I'm gonna break up with my girlfriend just because I need something to be completely different. I need everything in my life to be completely different immediately. It's so hard to keep up with yourself. But those the go on. Sarah: Yeah, I did I I've done stuff like that. I I so I was in I was in college training to be a a counsellor. and one day we did this thing on the organ organism itself and it was what you were born to be or something. And I I everyone everyone in the class said they were born to help and born to like be a counsellor or something. And when it got to me I went, I don't think I'm born to help. I don't really like helping people. I went, I think I'm born to teach. and they were like, okay, okay. 'Cause I I'm just like I'm not really that like sympathetic, empathetic. Like I've never really been. Like when someone's Trevor Holland: Mm. Sarah: sick, I'm just like like it it bothers me when people are sick. Like I haven't got what like you know what mean? and I know I'm terrible. and so I was like, I'm born to teach and so I left that course that day, quit and signed up for uni and like start started my English course and then went on to do a master's and then I was gonna do a PhD and become a lecturer, but I just couldn't be asked doing a PhD. So and my sho my dissertation choosing for me MA was like, So make sure you sign on for the PhD. You know, you need to you you you know you did really well on your your masters and you need to take that forward. It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Didn't didn't do my PhD. Just left everything. I'm became did social media. Trevor Holland: Yeah, but you did do it your you did do your undergraduate and you did do your postgraduate. So you did so Sarah: yeah, yeah, I did. I did that. But I just sacked off the whole two years of counselling. Trevor Holland: It is good though. It is good that you managed to get through two degrees. It's Sarah: yeah, I know. Trevor Holland: amazing actually. I was never I was ne I quit uni and to be honest, the way the method by which Sarah: Yeah, I didn't do it to do a ca a catch an action hero. Trevor Holland: Well, yeah, the method by which I I quit uni was irresponsible. However, I think in the back of my mind I knew that quitting uni was Sarah: He didn't want to do it. Trevor Holland: well quitting uni was my only option other than failing uni. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: I I would have I Sam, shut up. I would have I would have failed Uni if I hadn't quit. And I think I'd rather be I always rather things be on my own terms. Like the amount of jobs I haven't got fired from and the only reason I wasn't fired from them is because I quit them before they had the opportunity to find me. I'm Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: like the outcome's the same either way, but on this this one it feels like I'm in control. So yeah, that's been my whole life for years just quitting shit because I know the writings on the wall. shit. Sarah: That's similar to my brother. My br my my brother's always quit jobs that 'cause he just doesn't like getting told what to do and that's why he's had his business for so his own business for so long, because he works for himself and he hasn't got anyone to tell what to do. And he also loves what he does 'cause he's with dogs the whole time. Trevor Holland: Something I've decided to do, speak Sarah: Okay. Trevor Holland: talking of animals. I wanted to start picking up my art again 'cause I haven't done any kind of visual art in years and it's something I used to do all the time and I'm like, fucking every now and then I get the taste for it and I'm like, why do I why do I keep not doing this? Sarah: you if they're looking there's mine. Trevor Holland: What have you got then? You got Sarah: I I'd that's Teddy and there but this is what I prefer to do. Trevor Holland: That's really cute, I like that. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: I like all. What do you do the middle one as well? Sarah: Not that, that's just a school on it. That's a candle. Trevor Holland: Well I thought you might have painted it. Sarah: No, I don't paint. Trevor Holland: I used to draw all the time and it was drawing and drawing was always my my way of communicating creatively. I just before I was into writing I used to draw 'cause I just felt I I I'd had an affinity for it. I found it easy. but anyway, I've I've realised I miss it. I miss painting, I miss doing art. So I wanna start painting again. I wanna combine my love of art and my love of animals So, one of the things I do, I go out for a walk every single day for at least an hour because it Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: it burns calories, it centers my mind a little bit and it's part it was part of my health kick. But when I'm walking, I often encounter cats just out in the wild and I'll try and say hello to every single one of them. But what I s what I will often do is take pictures of them. And so in my phone I've got a fuckload of photos of cats that I've met. There's Sarah: The random cards. Trevor Holland: random cats that I've met. And I'm like it it feels super neurodivergent, but I don't care. I I wanna do it. I decided to start doing paintings of the cats that I meet. So I'm doing like pet portraiture of other people's pets, but the pet the the people that own the pets don't even know I'm doing it. and I never give it to them because I don't know who they are. And so I Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: just so I just like I do these paintings of these cats that I meet and I'm like, I'm gonna fucking do it. And that's exactly what I'm gonna do. That's my next thing is I'm gonna start painting these fucking cats, these random cats. But then I'm gonna like I'm gonna in in the kind of annotation of the painting it's gonna be I'm gonna name the cat and I'm gonna write a whole backstory about who they are. Sarah: Sweet. Trevor Holland: It's a really borderline, potentially stupid project, but I can't tell you how excited I am about it. Sarah: No. Yeah, do we? Trevor Holland: I love it. And I've decided that I can't be asked with one of the reasons why I stopped painting is because I found it such a faff. fucking about with brushes and washing brushes, dude. So I'm like, fuck it, I'll just do finger paintings for the rest of my life. I'm gonna do finger paintings from now on. I've done finger paintings before. They're really fun. They're really tactile. Just fucking s fucking fingers, mate. So yeah. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: I'm gonna paint a shitload of pictures of cats. Random street cats, man. That's gonna be my thing. Sarah: Nice one. Trevor Holland: Yeah. Did I I I've been you might if you I I will forgive you if you don't listen to my if you don't listen to the podcast, but I created this character called Minty Five Hundred, right? This this th the Sarah: No, I have s I've seen this. Trevor Holland: t the tardigrade guy that I'm obsessed with now. Well, I got I'm Sarah: Who Trevor Holland: I'm currently build building building a model of him out of FineMo. How much does he look like a dick? Sarah: It just well, I mean, it's not a dick that I've seen, but Trevor Holland: Not not the bot not the bottom bit, but but but Sarah: Ha ha ha. Trevor Holland: I I can't tell you how much fun I'm having just building a fucking massive clay eight legged creature. Like I do shit like this now and I'm like I used to be like, this is a bit of a dumb thing to do but I'm fucking it. I'm enjoying myself, man. It's fun. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. This is what I've been saying to my mum 'cause my mum my mum's just doesn't really do anything. I was like, just find a dead weird hobby and get on with it. She can't be building. I'm like, just do something. I was like like I was like d knit f like little I was like, just try knitting or something. I don't think I could do that. And I was like, I didn't think I could do it, but I do it. I was like, I didn't think I could do that, but I've taught myself how to do it, and now look how fucking boss I am. Trevor Holland: It's just I Sarah: I draw all the I draw them all out on my iPad and then like transfer it to fabric and then make them. But I've I I make like in I make them for everyone and like do I I make like or we mate them when they get married and like personalise them and everything. They're dead cute. Trevor Holland: It's it's really nice to have something like that. And I where where I struggle is I always try and think how can I channel this into something that I can make money from rather than what can I do that I just do because I enjoy it and I don't Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: wanna get anything out of it other than the enjoyment of it. I'm clearly one hundred percent gonna try and sell those paintings of the cats that I'm gonna do. But that's not why I'm doing it. I'm doing it because I want to paint pictures of cats and I w because I enjoy the process of doing it. And that's something I've always struggled with. Just doing something because I like it rather than because I think it's worth something other than just the enjoyment. It's like what Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: what can I get out of this? So what you're getting out of it is that you like doing it. And that's all you need, right? Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Trevor Holland: Yeah. Okay. Cool. All right. Well, I need to have my lunch, mate. Sarah: Sweet. Trevor Holland: I know it's early, but I always have my lunch at this time. I is it it well, I've been Sarah: You you you've been on work for for for hours. Trevor Holland: up I've been up since half one in the morning, so I need my I need my lunch. And I as I said to you before we started recording, I've got my I've got my rotor now. I've that I've made up Sarah: You do. Trevor Holland: and my rotor says twelve o'clock to one o'clock lunch. And what the fuck? I can't not do that. Sarah: Yeah. Obviously. Trevor Holland: So Sarah, once again, lovely to have you back. Did you have d did Sarah: Thank you for having me. Trevor Holland: you have fun? Sarah: I mean, it was all right. Yeah, I was it. Trevor Holland: So guys out there, guys and girls and everyone else, Sarah's gonna be back next week and Well I don't Sarah: Sorry. Trevor Holland: I don't know like look we're we're trying to we're we're kind of flying by the seat of our pants. We don't know how frequently Sarah's gonna be involved in what capacity, but at the moment Sarah's gonna be on next week's episode and we've got a couple of others lined up as well. But let us know what you think. Be nice though. Let us know what you think. Sarah: Yeah, please. Trevor Holland: As always, if you enjoy this podcast, do me a huge favor and consider subscribing, liking, commenting, otherwise engaging, because I do require validation externally from the public. if you're just Sarah: So do I, the RSD guys. Trevor Holland: Yeah, look, guys, I have a bit of sympathy. It's not just that I'm an attention whore. I I do have pathological need for people to love me so so please show me and show Sarah how much you love us by doing those things please and f follow me on Instagram at Shouty Brain visit my website shoutybrain.com you on Instagram Sarah is from Sarah Lex Sarah: From Sara Lex, yes. Trevor Holland: so do that as well but guys I hope you enjoy the rest of your week look after yourselves look after each other Be kind for fuck's sake. I love you.